3 complex damage mods, 3 proficiency proto swarms vs 2 complex 1 enhanced heavy repair with level 3 in repair proficiency.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v7AwrgVwNA&feature=youtu.be

I say this every time and I will say it again, fck that noise. There is absolutely no reason AV shouldn't be able to solo a tank, at least on the same tier. Here's the kicker about the video and what you said, that tank ain't any where near being proto. Sure it's likely got complex reps but it's still a standard tank being shot at by proto swarms.

Again, to anyone that says AV shouldn't be able to solo a tank up to it's tier, f u c k that noise. It should be a challenge for standard AV to take out a standard tank with basic or enhanced modules or but not fcking impossible and proto AV should be able to kick that same tank around like a tin can. Of course that last part is for when proto AV can be balanced against proto vehicles at which point it'll be as hard to properly fit complex modules on a std tank as it is to fit them on a std suit now.

Though I can agree that as it stands now with only std vehicles it should take effort to solo them with proto AV but standard AV should still actually stand a chance against a fcking standard vehicle.

Also in regards to tanks specifically, the "it's a tank" argument only works against weapons not designed to kill it; it does not and will never work against weapons specifically designed to kill it.

All i'm really seeing here is that it takes a double damage modded railgun, pretty much the pinnacle of anti-vehicle weaponry, to kill a triple rep madrugar.

I have yet to see a maddy with any amount of hardeners and plates handle a double damage modded railgun 'with ease' maybe once those damage mods have gone on cooldown and the railgun is reloading.

That's bullshit and you know it.
Min Commando skill is not enough to pack a punch through that kind of tank. Especially in the middle of the battlefield when the tank's active and moving and mowing down your team.

'I know from experience.'

There will be proto tanks, they may be called something other than proto but they will exist and tiers will always exist in one form or another in Dust just as they continue to exist in Eve.

Wow... that is just redonkulous. So basically its bring another tank or get ****** at this point?

Not a dev, just a player.

Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time.

In a pub, that's never going to happen.

Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire.

This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally

1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker
2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player
3a) proto AV vs proto tanker
3b) proto AV vs standard tanker
3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1)
4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well
5) efficiency against infantry
6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players.


Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this?

Infantry vs infantry is at the moment fair and i dont see any issues with that currently. However when i see that my Swarms do nothing at all against a tank like in the OP vid its just not motivating. Regardless if i get WP for damaging the vehicle or not. It just doesnt simply matter, even if i collect 2500WP for a orbital strike the tank just goes speedy gonzales and escapes from the effected area.

And this is aswell a issue that tanks are way too fast without a counter to that. On eve ya got webs and scrams to keep your opponent from running away. Something like a webifier grenade could help us out alot. Maybe slow down a vehcile by 60% for 12 secs when it gets hit by it?

My thoughts. MLT tanks are overperforming compared to actual tanks (which themselves can situationally overperform) for their comparative cost, either raise the cost for MLT (and justify the durability with the cost) or lower the cost of STD tanks.

Damage mods are wildly overpowering right now, two damage mods on a particle cannon take you straight from about 1800 to ~ 3100 damage a shot. Damage modules *must be reverted to how they functioned in 1.6 and prior patches*, where they either let you turn your turret better, get more shots off before overheating for the active modules, or the lowslot passive ones provided the actual damage boosts. Currently a single MLT dmg mod provides greater benefit than the old systems two lowslot modules and a level five skill - on demand, with no sp investment.

Railguns if they're going to keep their rate of fire need to have their damage lowered by about 200-300 points as the 'amazing tank battles' many would like to see don't happen at all because they are killed in two shots to a 2x dmg mod sica / gunnlogi.

The reduced slot count has nixed a lot of the diversity that even 1.6 had in terms of vehicles, and is part of what is affecting vehicles so badly - as all hardeners are active and almost all reps are completely passive tanks exist in a binary state - you can either kill it or you can't. Things should happen on a gradual scale, where 'if a tank sits in one spot long enough he will die even to MLT swarms, it may take a pretty long time depending on the 'level' of AV being brought out, but it will happen' to a state where 3-4 coordinated AV'ers will instablap vehicles.

Now to actually address your points.

1) KDR - I wouldn't actually address this as a 'metric' worth balancing around as a primary statistic.
2) Isk efficiency of vehicles vs infantry. This one is also quite tough, but I'd say that in their current state most vehicle users will acknowledge that they are (unless in a coordinated situation) extremely isk inefficient compared to infantry. This has a problem on both sides in that vehicles underperform when played solo, or overperform when played with a group. As it is, I think it's *mostly* fine right now, but I would like to see vehicles get slightly more isk efficient *without making them infantry murdering machines*. Isk efficiency could easily be boosted through WP for MCRU spawns, allowing tanks to replace a weapon turret with an active scanning station (functions like current infantry active scanners, instead of the giant pulsing scanner).
3a)Proto AV vs Proto tank should probably be at about a 2.5:1 ratio. I don't have any numbers to really support this idea, but I heavily feel that AV (even heavy av) should be a strong deterrent to equally fit vehicles, not instant death.
3b)Proto AV vs STD tank should be closer to a 1.5:1 ratio, where once again it's not instant death, but it is a big threat.
4) Start with the average players, then take a look at things where they might be overperforming and find out *why* things are like that.
5) Cant help you here.
6) Infantry don't like to use weapons that cannot kill other infantry, or put them at significant risk from other infantry.

To take someone elses words : There are too many differences between the tiers of AV and Vehicle, things need to be brought much closer into line with each other - aka tiericide.

I have a more balanced question for you.... why should tanks be allowed to go 30/0 consistently?

so what you put 20 mil sp into tanks, what about the mercs who have 20 mil in their fits? shouldn't there be more even ground between the tank and infantry?

if we had larger maps with battles of 100 v 100 I don't think this would be an issue... but right now 1 tank can take out the whole other team! easily!..... isn't that a problem?

Dont want to pat myself on the back but,(ive been thinking about this for ages) and to please everyone, tankers and infantry alike, this would be the only reasonable solution to the problem we are having. Thank you for your reply.

Also i suggested something similar to a vehicle mounted HMG ages ago, would love to see 2 on a Dropship, whats not to love: Gatling guns and dropships.

And this would force them to use 2 small torrents and 2 other gunners if they wish to be more proficient at killing infantry. See how that balances out? takes 3 Av guys to kill 3 guys in a tank.

About large blaster: they just need more dispersion at more than 50 meters, a couple of days ago i was countersniping a sniper at 294 meters with around 14% efficiency but pinpoint accuracy.

your post is dishonest at best... I've been around since the very beginning of open beta and I'm no slouch on the field, I also play sometimes as much as 8 hours a day.... and I don't run with an alliance notorious for proto stomping.... my experience is far more unbalanced than what you claim yours is when it comes to tanks, and the various squads I'm a part of have had a much more similar experience to me...

you saw the video at the top of this thread.... that isn't rumor or conjecture... that is proof that tanks are unbalanced to av... when it only takes one to drive a tank and it takes 2 or more... usually 3 to kill a tank, that seriously gives the tanks team an infantry advantage since the other team must dedicate more than 1 to that tank... multiply the tanks you multiply the problem... 3 tanks on the field, theres 6-9 infantry now pulled away from dealing with other infantry for each tank to that teams 13 infantry that can not only support the tanker but take out the vulnerable avers with ease.

Be it true or false, it's anecdotal, and as such shouldn't be taken seriously.

Introduce active armor repairs with similar stats (maybe even buffed some).... Make them 1:1 possibly, 30s up and 30s down. Then reduce passive rep modules by about 50% or so.

You know... waves of opportunity and all that. This level of repair is fine as an active tank module but not sure its okay that tanks repair like this passively, we're talking 20-30% of their health every second indefinitely..

You can't fit 3 Damage mods on a Minmatar Commando...