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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
506
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Posted - 2014.04.30 03:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
Put that Swarm Launcher on Minmando (skill lv5) with 3 dmg mods and prof 5 and that Maddy doesn't stand a chance. I know from experience.
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
507
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Posted - 2014.04.30 07:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Unrelated to the issue at hand, in all honestly, I'm really against a single player, no matter how dedicated to AV, being able to take on a fully proto-ed tank easily. Eventually yes, a dedicated AV should kill it eventually if not engaged or fled from, but not easily.
I say this every time and I will say it again, fck that noise. There is absolutely no reason AV shouldn't be able to solo a tank, at least on the same tier. Here's the kicker about the video and what you said, that tank ain't any where near being proto. Sure it's likely got complex reps but it's still a standard tank being shot at by proto swarms. Again, to anyone that says AV shouldn't be able to solo a tank up to it's tier, f u c k that noise. It should be a challenge for standard AV to take out a standard tank with basic or enhanced modules or but not fcking impossible and proto AV should be able to kick that same tank around like a tin can. Of course that last part is for when proto AV can be balanced against proto vehicles at which point it'll be as hard to properly fit complex modules on a std tank as it is to fit them on a std suit now. Though I can agree that as it stands now with only std vehicles it should take effort to solo them with proto AV but standard AV should still actually stand a chance against a fcking standard vehicle. Also in regards to tanks specifically, the "it's a tank" argument only works against weapons not designed to kill it; it does not and will never work against weapons specifically designed to kill it. There are no proto tanks and with tiercide there will never be proto tanks. So proto mods are the best thing you can do. That's all I'm gonna say.
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
507
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Posted - 2014.04.30 07:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:BIind Shot wrote:
He's just sitting there taking no evasive action what so ever.. you don't think that's a little op?
Not op at all. HE set up his Maddy to deal with the sustained DPS of swarms and to an extent, forges. He is very vulnerable to alpha damage. 3 shots from a double damage modded militia railgun, 3 RE, or some PE would destroy that fit. Whereas a setup with 2 hardeners and a plate would easily handle that same railgun and RE and PE, but would suffer against those swarms because of the inability to rep back that health. It isn't that repper tanks are OP, it's that the video doesn't show all possible tank counters. All i'm really seeing here is that it takes a double damage modded railgun, pretty much the pinnacle of anti-vehicle weaponry, to kill a triple rep madrugar. I have yet to see a maddy with any amount of hardeners and plates handle a double damage modded railgun 'with ease' maybe once those damage mods have gone on cooldown and the railgun is reloading. I've heard of one, supposed to be nigh indestructible, the double hardener, 1 repper Madrugar. Well, that was in 1.7. I came across one in PC and he outrepped my single damage modded Particle Cannon. So I don't see why he couldn't have handled 2 damage mods with ease, just maybe wouldn't have been invulnerable against it but still...
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
507
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Posted - 2014.04.30 07:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
Repe Susi wrote:MarasdF Loron wrote:Put that Swarm Launcher on Minmando (skill lv5) with 3 dmg mods and prof 5 and that Maddy doesn't stand a chance. I know from experience. That's bullshit and you know it. Min Commando skill is not enough to pack a punch through that kind of tank. Especially in the middle of the battlefield when the tank's active and moving and mowing down your team. 'I know from experience.' It's so much bullshit that Mejt0 or whatever his/her name was blew up mine and my friend's triple rep tank 3 times in total before either of us had any kind of chance to get to any cover. After I died I watched my friend get raped from the overview map and his reactions made it very scary to watch. And Mejt0 was just casually staying out in the open knowing that we wouldn't be able to kill him/her fast enough.
Ever since that match I've had mad respect for his/her Swarms and I never wanna encounter him/her again.
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
507
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Posted - 2014.04.30 08:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:MarasdF Loron wrote: There are no proto tanks and with tiercide there will never be proto tanks. So proto mods are the best thing you can do. That's all I'm gonna say.
There will be proto tanks, they may be called something other than proto but they will exist and tiers will always exist in one form or another in Dust just as they continue to exist in Eve. There will at best be different variants of HAVs, but nothing that will be better than the basic HAV in every area. Specialization. They will give up something to gain something.
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
507
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Posted - 2014.04.30 08:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sourdough Muffins wrote:Wow... that is just redonkulous. So basically its bring another tank or get ****** at this point? Bring another tank? You mean like Blaster? There's 2 tank weapons that can beat triple rep. There's 2 ADS weapons that can beat it and 4 infantry weapons that can beat it. So.. Yeah, another tank seems like the smartest option.
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
507
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Posted - 2014.04.30 08:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Not a dev, just a player.
Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time.
In a pub, that's never going to happen.
Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire.
This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally
1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker 2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player 3a) proto AV vs proto tanker 3b) proto AV vs standard tanker 3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1) 4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well 5) efficiency against infantry 6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players.
Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this?
I know a lot of people say AV shouldn't be able to solo a HAV "because it's a tank." I think AV should definitely kill a HAV alone if the rock-paper-scissors favor him and he is more skilled than the tanker or if he gets the tanker in a bad spot otherwise.
If he is less skilled than the tanker but the rock-paper-scissors favor him, he should be able to drive the tanker away.
If he is more skilled, but the RPS doesn't favor him, he should still be able to drive the tanker away.
Only if he isn't skilled at all and the RPS doesn't favor him should the tanker be able to ignore that solo AV guy to a degree.
Now what RPS means is obviosly something designed to destroy armor should destroy armor. Same for shields. But currently swarms are very effective against shields and not so effective against armor. Should be the other way around. Shield tank should be able to ignore swarms to a degree.
Dunno how to achieve that kind of balance tho.
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
507
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Posted - 2014.04.30 08:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:Infantry vs infantry is at the moment fair and i dont see any issues with that currently. However when i see that my Swarms do nothing at all against a tank like in the OP vid its just not motivating. Regardless if i get WP for damaging the vehicle or not. It just doesnt simply matter, even if i collect 2500WP for a orbital strike the tank just goes speedy gonzales and escapes from the effected area.
And this is aswell a issue that tanks are way too fast without a counter to that. On eve ya got webs and scrams to keep your opponent from running away. Something like a webifier grenade could help us out alot. Maybe slow down a vehcile by 60% for 12 secs when it gets hit by it? I support the idea of webifiers and other ewar stuff but if that grenade is gonna last 12 seconds, how many should you be able to carry? 24 seconds of slowed down by 60% is quite a lot. Obviosly I think there should be options other than the grenade that are more effective, stuff that restricts your other options. Like webifier equipment you lay on the ground for permanent 60% reduction in ~30m radius until someone destroys that.. Or kind of a repair tool with longer range webifying your target instead of repairing it.
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
509
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Posted - 2014.04.30 09:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Not a dev, just a player.
Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time.
In a pub, that's never going to happen.
Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire.
This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally
1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker 2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player 3a) proto AV vs proto tanker 3b) proto AV vs standard tanker 3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1) 4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well 5) efficiency against infantry 6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players.
Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this?
My thoughts. MLT tanks are overperforming compared to actual tanks (which themselves can situationally overperform) for their comparative cost, either raise the cost for MLT (and justify the durability with the cost) or lower the cost of STD tanks. Damage mods are wildly overpowering right now, two damage mods on a particle cannon take you straight from about 1800 to ~ 3100 damage a shot. Damage modules *must be reverted to how they functioned in 1.6 and prior patches*, where they either let you turn your turret better, get more shots off before overheating for the active modules, or the lowslot passive ones provided the actual damage boosts. Currently a single MLT dmg mod provides greater benefit than the old systems two lowslot modules and a level five skill - on demand, with no sp investment. Railguns if they're going to keep their rate of fire need to have their damage lowered by about 200-300 points as the 'amazing tank battles' many would like to see don't happen at all because they are killed in two shots to a 2x dmg mod sica / gunnlogi. The reduced slot count has nixed a lot of the diversity that even 1.6 had in terms of vehicles, and is part of what is affecting vehicles so badly - as all hardeners are active and almost all reps are completely passive tanks exist in a binary state - you can either kill it or you can't. Things should happen on a gradual scale, where 'if a tank sits in one spot long enough he will die even to MLT swarms, it may take a pretty long time depending on the 'level' of AV being brought out, but it will happen' to a state where 3-4 coordinated AV'ers will instablap vehicles. Now to actually address your points. 1) KDR - I wouldn't actually address this as a 'metric' worth balancing around as a primary statistic. 2) Isk efficiency of vehicles vs infantry. This one is also quite tough, but I'd say that in their current state most vehicle users will acknowledge that they are (unless in a coordinated situation) extremely isk inefficient compared to infantry. This has a problem on both sides in that vehicles underperform when played solo, or overperform when played with a group. As it is, I think it's *mostly* fine right now, but I would like to see vehicles get slightly more isk efficient *without making them infantry murdering machines*. Isk efficiency could easily be boosted through WP for MCRU spawns, allowing tanks to replace a weapon turret with an active scanning station (functions like current infantry active scanners, instead of the giant pulsing scanner). 3a)Proto AV vs Proto tank should probably be at about a 2.5:1 ratio. I don't have any numbers to really support this idea, but I heavily feel that AV (even heavy av) should be a strong deterrent to equally fit vehicles, not instant death. 3b)Proto AV vs STD tank should be closer to a 1.5:1 ratio, where once again it's not instant death, but it is a big threat. 4) Start with the average players, then take a look at things where they might be overperforming and find out *why* things are like that. 5) Cant help you here. 6) Infantry don't like to use weapons that cannot kill other infantry, or put them at significant risk from other infantry. To take someone elses words : There are too many differences between the tiers of AV and Vehicle, things need to be brought much closer into line with each other - aka tiericide. Great points here, awesome points. What I would like to add here is the acceleration buff for tanks was unnecessary. It needs to be reverted back to pre 1.7 levels. Agree?
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
509
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Posted - 2014.04.30 10:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Seymor Krelborn wrote:ChromeBreaker wrote:You take a FG and kill the tank?... Its swarms that dont have the power. There have been a few occations where i have cleared the field of tanks either by killing them of driving them off by bring out my FG.
That isnt bragging, 2 FG's on a bit of high ground will dominate every tank going.
When people have issue with tripple rep maddi's, they arent your scrub militia tankers, theyre the peeps that have put time and points into tanks, why should they be driven off by every tom d*ck and harry who's put a point into swarms? I have a more balanced question for you.... why should tanks be allowed to go 30/0 consistently? so what you put 20 mil sp into tanks, what about the mercs who have 20 mil in their fits? shouldn't there be more even ground between the tank and infantry? if we had larger maps with battles of 100 v 100 I don't think this would be an issue... but right now 1 tank can take out the whole other team! easily!..... isn't that a problem? Whenever I play with competent slayers, they score a lot more kills than I can even find people, let alone kill them all, in a match. And those slayers are using STD stuff most of the time. Most of the time they even get 0 deaths when they run with me. There is no way I can compete with their kills consistently or even inconsistently.
Whenever I am running infantry, around 0.1% of my deaths are by tankers. 0.9% by ADSes and the rest is done by infantry. I don't fear or hate tanks but I respect them, maybe that's why I don't get killed by them. Whenever I see a tank I just laugh at it because I know it can do nothing to kill me if I don't let him. But slayers can easily get me anytime, anywhere.
I am nowhere near the best infantry player, I am somewhere near average, but because I know what vehicles can and cannot do, I am not killed by them. Maybe everyone should learn how vehicles operate.
And whenever I kill someone with my Blaster easily, I can only feel sorry for them because there is nothing anyone can do to improve their gameplay.
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
509
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Posted - 2014.04.30 11:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
KatanaPT wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:KatanaPT wrote:Actually, honestly i think the whole problem would be solved with this:
- Penalty (OR inability to fire) to large tank weapons against infantry, make them into what they must be, tank and installation killers. Now we have a giant shotgun on top of a tank. If a tanker wants to go against infantry then install small turrets, because thats what they are for.
I agree we should not be able to solo a tank, and i also agree to the current state of the tanks, they are hard to kill, fast, great tank killers and they can dominate the battlefield, the problem is that most of the tanks nowadays run a single large turret and can kill everything. What happened to small turrets? What happened to their original purpose? (vs infantry) Be it a blaster or a rail, the tank large turrets must be really effective against what they were designed to do, other tanks, installations, vehicles, etc. It maybe unrealistic, (try to think about a 120mm sabot from a M1 against a enemy soldier), but afterall this is a scifi game.
--> Bring back small turrets role against infantry and delegate large turrets to their job.
This would fix tanks. If the denizens of tankers who love to kill infantry want to continue doing it again, just equip 2 good small turrets, a good crew and let it rip. I have been thinking about this, and make the small vehicle turrets a bit more fun to use. Maybe swarm launchers and HMG's as options as well. I can't hit a damn thing using moving blasters :( Dont want to pat myself on the back but,(ive been thinking about this for ages) and to please everyone, tankers and infantry alike, this would be the only reasonable solution to the problem we are having. Thank you for your reply. Also i suggested something similar to a vehicle mounted HMG ages ago, would love to see 2 on a Dropship, whats not to love: Gatling guns and dropships. The only problem, and I mean the only problem is that the day Large Turrets no longer work against infantry is the day when HAVs become obsolete. Until such a time that CCP adds MAVs and MTACs and stuff like that. Only thing HAVs can do is kill, and that will always be the case, but when there is nothing to kill, what's the point of having them?
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
509
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Posted - 2014.04.30 11:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
BIind Shot wrote:BIind Shot wrote:I feel like tanks would be balanced if they removed the large blaster from the game. They could still kill infantry with the missiles and even rails but they would be less efficient at it. And this would force them to use 2 small torrents and 2 other gunners if they wish to be more proficient at killing infantry. See how that balances out? takes 3 Av guys to kill 3 guys in a tank. Haven't vehicles have had enough stuff removed yet? Wasn't the immense nerf to Blasters in 1.7 not enough? As it is now, it takes 1 guy to kill HAV, he just kills the HAV faster if there are more turrets in the HAV. So 1-man HAV is hardest to kill where as 3-man HAV is the easiest... makes no sense but whatever. IMO there should be different hulls for different amount of turret hardpoints.
shaman oga wrote:About large blaster: they just need more dispersion at more than 50 meters, a couple of days ago i was countersniping a sniper at 294 meters with around 14% efficiency but pinpoint accuracy. This is GD, I thought logic was not allowed here?
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
512
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Seymor Krelborn wrote:MarasdF Loron wrote:Seymor Krelborn wrote:ChromeBreaker wrote:You take a FG and kill the tank?... Its swarms that dont have the power. There have been a few occations where i have cleared the field of tanks either by killing them of driving them off by bring out my FG.
That isnt bragging, 2 FG's on a bit of high ground will dominate every tank going.
When people have issue with tripple rep maddi's, they arent your scrub militia tankers, theyre the peeps that have put time and points into tanks, why should they be driven off by every tom d*ck and harry who's put a point into swarms? I have a more balanced question for you.... why should tanks be allowed to go 30/0 consistently? so what you put 20 mil sp into tanks, what about the mercs who have 20 mil in their fits? shouldn't there be more even ground between the tank and infantry? if we had larger maps with battles of 100 v 100 I don't think this would be an issue... but right now 1 tank can take out the whole other team! easily!..... isn't that a problem? Whenever I play with competent slayers, they score a lot more kills than I can even find people, let alone kill them all, in a match. And those slayers are using STD stuff most of the time. Most of the time they even get 0 deaths when they run with me. There is no way I can compete with their kills consistently or even inconsistently. Whenever I am running infantry, around 0.1% of my deaths are by tankers. 0.9% by ADSes and the rest is done by infantry. I don't fear or hate tanks but I respect them, maybe that's why I don't get killed by them. Whenever I see a tank I just laugh at it because I know it can do nothing to kill me if I don't let him. But slayers can easily get me anytime, anywhere. I am nowhere near the best infantry player, I am somewhere near average, but because I know what vehicles can and cannot do, I am not killed by them. Maybe everyone should learn how vehicles operate. And whenever I kill someone with my Blaster easily, I can only feel sorry for them because there is nothing anyone can do to improve their gameplay. your post is dishonest at best... I've been around since the very beginning of open beta and I'm no slouch on the field, I also play sometimes as much as 8 hours a day.... and I don't run with an alliance notorious for proto stomping.... my experience is far more unbalanced than what you claim yours is when it comes to tanks, and the various squads I'm a part of have had a much more similar experience to me... you saw the video at the top of this thread.... that isn't rumor or conjecture... that is proof that tanks are unbalanced to av... when it only takes one to drive a tank and it takes 2 or more... usually 3 to kill a tank, that seriously gives the tanks team an infantry advantage since the other team must dedicate more than 1 to that tank... multiply the tanks you multiply the problem... 3 tanks on the field, theres 6-9 infantry now pulled away from dealing with other infantry for each tank to that teams 13 infantry that can not only support the tanker but take out the vulnerable avers with ease. Every word I said was true and if you don't believe me, then.. well, that's your problem, not mine.
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
512
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Atiim wrote:MarasdF Loron wrote: Every word I said was true and if you don't believe me, then.. well, that's your problem, not mine.
Be it true or false, it's anecdotal, and as such shouldn't be taken seriously. 99% of everything on the forums is anecdotal and according to you, should not be taken seriously. Once I can get my ps3 back from repairs I can mail some of those slayers and surely they can confirm that they can easily score higher than any tank can. You can start by mailing California CatDog(e), I'm sure he'll confirm what I've said about slayers.
What I've said about my own gameplay as infantry, well, like I said, I can only feel sorry for anyone dying to Blasters as infantry because I only die to them once in a blue moon.
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
514
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Posted - 2014.04.30 14:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this? Introduce active armor repairs with similar stats (maybe even buffed some).... Make them 1:1 possibly, 30s up and 30s down. Then reduce passive rep modules by about 50% or so. You know... waves of opportunity and all that. This level of repair is fine as an active tank module but not sure its okay that tanks repair like this passively, we're talking 20-30% of their health every second indefinitely.. 12%-12.8% of their armor HP or 9.25%-9.84% of their total HP per second. Which I would agree is alot, if their base HP was enough to survive any kind of alpha damage.
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
517
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
Zaaeed Massani wrote:MarasdF Loron wrote:Put that Swarm Launcher on Minmando (skill lv5) with 3 dmg mods and prof 5 and that Maddy doesn't stand a chance. I know from experience. You can't fit 3 Damage mods on a Minmatar Commando... You are right, my bad.
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
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