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Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 7487	Posted - 2014.04.30 11:55:00 - [121] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Swarms are an assistant AV. Who are you assisting? Link a DEV quote saying this or your entire argument falls apart. Though for arguments sake, why would anyone spec into Swarm Launchers if you have no realistic chance of destroying a vehicle, while also having to invest the same amount of ISK & SP as other AV options, and cannot use your AV weapon against infantry, like every other AV weapon in the game (bar AV Grenades & Proximity Explosives.) Not to mention the fact that the vehicle(s) your fighting with the Swarm Launcher only require 1 player to operate, and the fact a weapon that requires multiple people to use successfully is not a viable option in a competitive environment (ie, Planetary Conquest) while in a 16v16 engagement. Proposed Mobile CRU Changes -HAND
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 7487	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:05:00 - [122] - Quote Minor Treat wrote: What makes you think Swarms are Assistant AV? It does not say that in the description of the weapon. Weapon descriptions hardly mean anything in DUST, especially when you look at the SMGs description: Quote: Favoring function over form, the SMG is a lightweight, semi-automatic weapon designed for close-quarters combat. What it lacks in stopping power and accuracy it grossly overcompensates for with quantity. Designed to injure and impede, the hailstorm of bullets the SMG produces is most effective in tight spaces against multiple targets. This original design is a paradigm of Minmatar construction. An inelegant, but reliable weapon solution that is simple to produce, easily repaired using almost any available materials, and provides comparable pound-for-pound performance with similar sub-automatic weapons. Although an unabashedly low-tech weapon, it excels at what it was designed for: killing anything right in front of you. Anyone seen a Semi-Automatic SMG around? It's just flavor text. Proposed Mobile CRU Changes -HAND
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 512	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:06:00 - [123] - Quote Seymor Krelborn wrote: MarasdF Loron wrote: Seymor Krelborn wrote: ChromeBreaker wrote: You take a FG and kill the tank?... Its swarms that dont have the power. There have been a few occations where i have cleared the field of tanks either by killing them of driving them off by bring out my FG. That isnt bragging, 2 FG's on a bit of high ground will dominate every tank going. When people have issue with tripple rep maddi's, they arent your scrub militia tankers, theyre the peeps that have put time and points into tanks, why should they be driven off by every tom d*ck and harry who's put a point into swarms? I have a more balanced question for you.... why should tanks be allowed to go 30/0 consistently? so what you put 20 mil sp into tanks, what about the mercs who have 20 mil in their fits? shouldn't there be more even ground between the tank and infantry? if we had larger maps with battles of 100 v 100 I don't think this would be an issue... but right now 1 tank can take out the whole other team! easily!..... isn't that a problem? Whenever I play with competent slayers, they score a lot more kills than I can even find people, let alone kill them all, in a match. And those slayers are using STD stuff most of the time. Most of the time they even get 0 deaths when they run with me. There is no way I can compete with their kills consistently or even inconsistently. Whenever I am running infantry, around 0.1% of my deaths are by tankers. 0.9% by ADSes and the rest is done by infantry. I don't fear or hate tanks but I respect them, maybe that's why I don't get killed by them. Whenever I see a tank I just laugh at it because I know it can do nothing to kill me if I don't let him. But slayers can easily get me anytime, anywhere. I am nowhere near the best infantry player, I am somewhere near average, but because I know what vehicles can and cannot do, I am not killed by them. Maybe everyone should learn how vehicles operate. And whenever I kill someone with my Blaster easily, I can only feel sorry for them because there is nothing anyone can do to improve their gameplay. your post is dishonest at best... I've been around since the very beginning of open beta and I'm no slouch on the field, I also play sometimes as much as 8 hours a day.... and I don't run with an alliance notorious for proto stomping.... my experience is far more unbalanced than what you claim yours is when it comes to tanks, and the various squads I'm a part of have had a much more similar experience to me... you saw the video at the top of this thread.... that isn't rumor or conjecture... that is proof that tanks are unbalanced to av... when it only takes one to drive a tank and it takes 2 or more... usually 3 to kill a tank, that seriously gives the tanks team an infantry advantage since the other team must dedicate more than 1 to that tank... multiply the tanks you multiply the problem... 3 tanks on the field, theres 6-9 infantry now pulled away from dealing with other infantry for each tank to that teams 13 infantry that can not only support the tanker but take out the vulnerable avers with ease. Every word I said was true and if you don't believe me, then.. well, that's your problem, not mine. R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 7487	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:08:00 - [124] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: So your telling me that someone would sit there and can take a WBFG blast like a swarm launcher ??? I just know for a fact that's not true , I solo tanks with that gun . I can almost do it with a DCMA 5 . Unless your going against a Base Sica, a WBFG can't OHK any vehicle with a hit to the weak-spot. Proposed Mobile CRU Changes -HAND
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 7488	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:10:00 - [125] - Quote MarasdF Loron wrote: Every word I said was true and if you don't believe me, then.. well, that's your problem, not mine. Be it true or false, it's anecdotal, and as such shouldn't be taken seriously. Proposed Mobile CRU Changes -HAND
Mojo XXXIII Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 94	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:11:00 - [126] - Quote Atiim wrote: Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Swarms are an assistant AV. Who are you assisting? Link a DEV quote saying this or your entire argument falls apart. Though for arguments sake, why would anyone spec into Swarm Launchers if you have no realistic chance of destroying a vehicle, while also having to invest the same amount of ISK & SP as other AV options, and cannot use your AV weapon against infantry, like every other AV weapon in the game (bar AV Grenades & Proximity Explosives.) Not to mention the fact that the vehicle(s) your fighting with the Swarm Launcher only require 1 player to operate, and the fact a weapon that requires multiple people to use successfully is not a viable option in a competitive environment (ie, Planetary Conquest) while in a 16v16 engagement. -åTHIS. If Swarm Launchers are supposed to be an "assistant AV", then I'd like at least half of the SP I've wasted on them refunded, please, because there's no way in hell that I should have to grind the same amount of SP as any other weapon just to be an "assistant". If I had known beforehand that I was speccing to be somebody's assistant, I would have spent those same SP on any other weapon that I'd actually be able to kill with by myself, or on a Logi and be much more useful to my team.
Vulpes Dolosus SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1518	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:12:00 - [127] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Not a dev, just a player. Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time. In a pub, that's never going to happen. Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire. This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally 1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker 2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player 3a) proto AV vs proto tanker 3b) proto AV vs standard tanker 3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1) 4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well 5) efficiency against infantry 6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players. Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this? That was probably me earlier in the thread. I'd just like to clarify what I said: AV should be able to kill similarity tiered vehicles, but it shouldn't be easy. I think vehicles should have a slight advantage over AV because I believe it would bring a nice teamwork element to the game. However, no vehicle should be immune to similarly tiered AV. Ideally, If a single AV player is not dealt with quickly, it should be able to threaten a tank, but again not easily. I realize this is just abstract idealism and would be rather difficult to balance, but this should be the ultimate goal. Another thing can tell you right now that that AV will currently destroy any Gunnlogi you could ever make. The nerf to shield hardeners I feel was unjustified, though one was needed. One thing I'd rather have changed is bringing back the old resistance but adding a stacking penalty to the active duration. Stacking penalties may also be applied to repair mods, idk. Me in my ADS: 1,2
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 512	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:15:00 - [128] - Quote Atiim wrote: MarasdF Loron wrote: Every word I said was true and if you don't believe me, then.. well, that's your problem, not mine. Be it true or false, it's anecdotal, and as such shouldn't be taken seriously. 99% of everything on the forums is anecdotal and according to you, should not be taken seriously. Once I can get my ps3 back from repairs I can mail some of those slayers and surely they can confirm that they can easily score higher than any tank can. You can start by mailing California CatDog(e), I'm sure he'll confirm what I've said about slayers. What I've said about my own gameplay as infantry, well, like I said, I can only feel sorry for anyone dying to Blasters as infantry because I only die to them once in a blue moon. R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3517	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:26:00 - [129] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Not a dev, just a player. Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time. In a pub, that's never going to happen. Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire. This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally 1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker 2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player 3a) proto AV vs proto tanker 3b) proto AV vs standard tanker 3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1) 4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well 5) efficiency against infantry 6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players. Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this? But your trying to balance for pubs which in turn breaks PC which is the wrong way to go about it In pubs its squads vs academy players/solo players Try using that fit in a PC match and see what happens, it gets popped by another tank or a FG or both Pubs has no teamwork, 1 squad can wreck the entire enemy team Fix matchmaking 1st and put academy players in the academy for like 100games or something
BIind Shot Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 207	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:36:00 - [130] - Quote The av weapons aren't too far from one another. Kaalakiota Forge Gun: 1440, 3 sec ROF, 5 sec reload time. Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun: 2100, 4.5 sec ROF, 5 sec reload time. Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 1500, 2.25 sec ROF, 5 sec reload time. Wiyrkomi Swarm Launcher: 1320, 2-3 sec ROF, 4.5 sec reload. I'll talk to the tanker about shooting some vids with the forge guns. and he said unto them, "Bring ye all your trolls, that they shall feed".

BIind Shot Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 208	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:39:00 - [131] - Quote BIind Shot wrote: The av weapons aren't too far from one another. Kaalakiota Forge Gun: 1440, 3 sec ROF, 5 sec reload time. Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun: 2100, 4.5 sec ROF, 5 sec reload time. Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 1500, 2.25 sec ROF, 5 sec reload time. Wiyrkomi Swarm Launcher: 1320, 2-3 sec ROF, 4.5 sec reload. I'll talk to the tanker about shooting some vids with the forge guns. I believe the forge guns will have better outcomes because they get more from the proficiency skill and damage mods. It being 1 lump sum of damage over 6 missiles dealing moderate damage. and he said unto them, "Bring ye all your trolls, that they shall feed".
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2619	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:42:00 - [132] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this? Introduce active armor repairs with similar stats (maybe even buffed some).... Make them 1:1 possibly, 30s up and 30s down. Then reduce passive rep modules by about 50% or so. You know... waves of opportunity and all that. This level of repair is fine as an active tank module but not sure its okay that tanks repair like this passively, we're talking 20-30% of their health every second indefinitely..
Asha Starwind 853	Posted - 2014.04.30 13:00:00 - [133] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Not a dev, just a player. -snip- Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this? For starters revert repair modules back to being active modules. That should probably kill the issue dead, with little or no follow up changes. Mad Bomber - 50% less profile Return dumbfire to Swarms
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 1524	Posted - 2014.04.30 13:07:00 - [134] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this? Vehicle capacitors. Would be a good start. Also, adding Ewar would allow for more interesting balancing. I would be fine with making good vehicles have a long TTK, if there were ways (like in EVE) to cripple the vehicle by "tackling" it and applying ewar (webs, tracking disruption, neuting, etc.). This would make it very likely that the tank will die eventually, instead of being able to race off. The notion of being tackled in EVE is critical to game balance. It's why most intelligent players don't run around with very expensive ships/fits. If you combine this with a massive increase in price back to where they used to be then tanks will be very powerful, but something they're always nervous to loose. I have no problem with tankers having to run starter fits to bank up ISK to fund their tanking habit. I've had to mine in EVE to get nice things. The time invested required to buy a vehicle directly influences how reckless you're willing to be with it. I'd like tanks to be very strong, with high survivability (tank fights should play out like frigate fights in EVE), but with very high price tags, and the constant looming fear that there is an A/V guy out there who will tackle you and you'll be helpless. Best PvE idea ever!
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 279	Posted - 2014.04.30 13:21:00 - [135] - Quote The issue with making large blasters ineffective against infantry is that this removes the purpose of a tank. Removal of AI functionality of large blasters only works if a tanker can run a tank without a main turret and instead get a small turret. Otherwise tanks will be pointless for anyone who runs solo, except for counter tanking. Remember: Tanks are not infantry. They do not fullfill any function aside from killing.
BIind Shot Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 208	Posted - 2014.04.30 13:31:00 - [136] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: The issue with making large blasters ineffective against infantry is that this removes the purpose of a tank. Removal of AI functionality of large blasters only works if a tanker can run a tank without a main turret and instead get a small turret. Otherwise tanks will be pointless for anyone who runs solo, except for counter tanking. Remember: Tanks are not infantry. They do not fullfill any function aside from killing. They should of gave infantry a full respec and told us they were going to switch game dynamics from FPS to 3rd person tank simulator. I'd like to play this game but I refuse if my only role is to be a cadaver for vehicle characters. and he said unto them, "Bring ye all your trolls, that they shall feed".
Gelhad Thremyr Quebec United Caps and Mercs 248	Posted - 2014.04.30 13:36:00 - [137] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Not a dev, just a player. Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time. In a pub, that's never going to happen. Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire. This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally 1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker 2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player 3a) proto AV vs proto tanker 3b) proto AV vs standard tanker 3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1) 4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well 5) efficiency against infantry 6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players. Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this? Slow down turret rotations, will put all tankers at the same levels, and tanks wont be used as efficiently as they are now against infantry. Let tanks have the obligation to have a module used for turret speed, so they will not be able to tripple rep. You should also have stacking penalties on ALL modules, as infantry currently suffer. People dont use tanks to battle tanks as much as killing ground troops. Milkman being the best example this post exposeinfantry should be able to dodge a tank at 20 m easily. The advantage of infantry is mobility. Or change your level design to give more cover and remove old map !
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 947	Posted - 2014.04.30 13:37:00 - [138] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: The issue with making large blasters ineffective against infantry is that this removes the purpose of a tank. Removal of AI functionality of large blasters only works if a tanker can run a tank without a main turret and instead get a small turret. Otherwise tanks will be pointless for anyone who runs solo, except for counter tanking. Remember: Tanks are not infantry. They do not fullfill any function aside from killing. This is exactly the root cause to the current imbalances we have, you simply shouldn't give a 5000 ehp behemot the same role as infantry. Or you should give infantry a VERY powerfull weapon at hand to deal with such "monsters". This decision of CCP is one of the most...well lets say...unlucky ones in terms of balance. Havs need a role besides killing Infantry and killing oher Havs is not a suitable role as long as there is no reason to call in a Hav...it is quite sad that CCP either is not able or willing to understand that. And as long as this overlapping exist we will never achieve some sort of balance between AV and Hav's...
Mojo XXXIII Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 97	Posted - 2014.04.30 13:38:00 - [139] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: The issue with making large blasters ineffective against infantry is that this removes the purpose of a tank. Removal of AI functionality of large blasters only works if a tanker can run a tank without a main turret and instead get a small turret. Otherwise tanks will be pointless for anyone who runs solo, except for counter tanking. Remember: Tanks are not infantry. They do not fullfill any function aside from killing. So use teamwork. It's supposed to be a squad-based, team-centric game isn't it? Isn't that what tankers keep telling AV? Equip a small turret on your tank and bring a teammate to kill infantry, while the driver focusses on driving and counter tanking.
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1691	Posted - 2014.04.30 13:39:00 - [140] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: KatanaPT wrote: Actually, honestly i think the whole problem would be solved with this: - Penalty (OR inability to fire) to large tank weapons against infantry, make them into what they must be, tank and installation killers. Now we have a giant shotgun on top of a tank. If a tanker wants to go against infantry then install small turrets, because thats what they are for. I agree we should not be able to solo a tank, and i also agree to the current state of the tanks, they are hard to kill, fast, great tank killers and they can dominate the battlefield, the problem is that most of the tanks nowadays run a single large turret and can kill everything. What happened to small turrets? What happened to their original purpose? (vs infantry) Be it a blaster or a rail, the tank large turrets must be really effective against what they were designed to do, other tanks, installations, vehicles, etc. It maybe unrealistic, (try to think about a 120mm sabot from a M1 against a enemy soldier), but afterall this is a scifi game. --> Bring back small turrets role against infantry and delegate large turrets to their job. This would fix tanks. If the denizens of tankers who love to kill infantry want to continue doing it again, just equip 2 good small turrets, a good crew and let it rip. I have been thinking about this, and make the small vehicle turrets a bit more fun to use. Maybe swarm launchers and HMG's as options as well. I can't hit a damn thing using moving blasters :( I think turret type should help to define role, not size. The blaster turret will still hit infantry far easier than the railgun or missile turret; even if you halve its RoF and double its damage, that will not improve anything. The blaster turret is and will always be an infantry killer. As such, it should have poor AV capabilities, of which it currently doesn't suffer from. Large blasters are too effective against other vehicles which upsets the balance. A single turret cannot both be an infantry killer as well as pose a threat to other vehicles. Remember the 1.6 blaster Maddy that was the be-all end-all to tanking? It both slaughtered infantry and vehicles alike, far outclassing the railgun and missile turret. I believe that any balance efforts should first make a pass through the large turrets. Any AV buffs or tank nerfs will only upset the balance that there is between AV and missile/railgun tanks, as those types of tanks can't fire back effectively and are forced to retreat. Just like the hardener nerf was a rather huge nerf for missile tanks but an indirect buff to blaster and railgun tanks, because they both now get a reduced number if shots required to destroy another tank, while I still need my average of one missile volley plus a portion of another volley to destroy a fair amout of tanks. I also had to get rid of my damage amplifier to make up for a loss in EHP against blaster/railgun tanks due to the hardener nerf. Balancing the Large Turrets "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32

Severus Smith Caldari State 507	Posted - 2014.04.30 13:42:00 - [141] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: KatanaPT wrote: Actually, honestly i think the whole problem would be solved with this: - Penalty (OR inability to fire) to large tank weapons against infantry, make them into what they must be, tank and installation killers. Now we have a giant shotgun on top of a tank. If a tanker wants to go against infantry then install small turrets, because thats what they are for. I agree we should not be able to solo a tank, and i also agree to the current state of the tanks, they are hard to kill, fast, great tank killers and they can dominate the battlefield, the problem is that most of the tanks nowadays run a single large turret and can kill everything. What happened to small turrets? What happened to their original purpose? (vs infantry) Be it a blaster or a rail, the tank large turrets must be really effective against what they were designed to do, other tanks, installations, vehicles, etc. It maybe unrealistic, (try to think about a 120mm sabot from a M1 against a enemy soldier), but afterall this is a scifi game. --> Bring back small turrets role against infantry and delegate large turrets to their job. This would fix tanks. If the denizens of tankers who love to kill infantry want to continue doing it again, just equip 2 good small turrets, a good crew and let it rip. I have been thinking about this, and make the small vehicle turrets a bit more fun to use. Maybe swarm launchers and HMG's as options as well. I can't hit a damn thing using moving blasters :( Have large turrets for tanks / installations behave like the forge gun. Slow to aim and if you aren't exactly on your target then you miss. Just like a M1 vs a soldier. If the M1 can line up a direct shot on that soldier with it's slow moving turret then the soldier should die, but if the M1 is off by even a little bit then its a miss. Likewise, improve small turrets to be deadly. The blaster turret should do 1000 DPS minimum but run out of ammo, or overheat, if held down for long. This allows light vehicles to do support strafing runs (would be so awesome to see this with a dropship) while allowing tanks to counter light vehicles with their large turrets.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 558	Posted - 2014.04.30 13:44:00 - [142] - Quote Minor Treat wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Ok, obviously it's broken and needs fixed and I'm not trying to defend it, but have you tried: Similarly tiered forgeguns? What about Proto Min Commando w/ swarms? Rail/Missile Tanks? Teamwork? Unrelated to the issue at hand, in all honestly, I'm really against a single player, no matter how dedicated to AV, being able to take on a fully proto-ed tank easily. Eventually yes, a dedicated AV should kill it eventually if not engaged or fled from, but not easily. I like this post. I agree a single AV should not be able to kill a Tank but I like to think that a single AV player should be a thorn in his side if he is spec into AVs Edit: i made a typo I strongly disagree. One player should be able to kill another player, whether in a suit or a vehicle. Because, that's why.
Scrub Zero Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 23	Posted - 2014.04.30 13:45:00 - [143] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Not a dev, just a player. Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time. In a pub, that's never going to happen. Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire. This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally 1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker 2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player 3a) proto AV vs proto tanker 3b) proto AV vs standard tanker 3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1) 4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well 5) efficiency against infantry 6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players. Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this? Buff swarm launcher range. They are THE worst AV in the game. 75%* of players use swarms over forge. As a side note. Tankers are NO MATCH for my murder taxi! I LOVE tankers! They give me iskies. Seriously though, we ALL need a VEHICLE FREE MAP! This would make SO MANY happy.
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1692	Posted - 2014.04.30 13:49:00 - [144] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Minor Treat wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Ok, obviously it's broken and needs fixed and I'm not trying to defend it, but have you tried: Similarly tiered forgeguns? What about Proto Min Commando w/ swarms? Rail/Missile Tanks? Teamwork? Unrelated to the issue at hand, in all honestly, I'm really against a single player, no matter how dedicated to AV, being able to take on a fully proto-ed tank easily. Eventually yes, a dedicated AV should kill it eventually if not engaged or fled from, but not easily. I like this post. I agree a single AV should not be able to kill a Tank but I like to think that a single AV player should be a thorn in his side if he is spec into AVs Edit: i made a typo I strongly disagree. One player should be able to kill another player, whether in a suit or a vehicle. And I strongly disagree with you. Why are all of you so hell-bent on destroying tanks? Is it not enough if you managed to make it activate its modules and retreat? That's how it should be. A dedicated AV vs a dedicated tank won't be able to kill the tank, but it will be a huge hindrance to the tank and limit its abilities. Though two or more dedicated AV and the dedicated tank should be in trouble. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 558	Posted - 2014.04.30 13:54:00 - [145] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: BIind Shot wrote: He's just sitting there taking no evasive action what so ever.. you don't think that's a little op? Not op at all. HE set up his Maddy to deal with the sustained DPS of swarms and to an extent, forges. He is very vulnerable to alpha damage. 3 shots from a double damage modded militia railgun, 3 RE, or some PE would destroy that fit. Whereas a setup with 2 hardeners and a plate would easily handle that same railgun and RE and PE, but would suffer against those swarms because of the inability to rep back that health. It isn't that repper tanks are OP, it's that the video doesn't show all possible tank counters. You can not design balance when tanks play against infantry by balancing tank against tank, you have to balance tank against infantry and THEN tank v tank. Because, that's why.
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion Zero-Day 203	Posted - 2014.04.30 14:03:00 - [146] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Not a dev, just a player. Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time. In a pub, that's never going to happen. Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire. This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally 1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker 2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player 3a) proto AV vs proto tanker 3b) proto AV vs standard tanker 3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1) 4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well 5) efficiency against infantry 6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players. Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this? Excuse me....but your analysis is well flawed in one aspect...THEIR ARE NO PROTO TANKS!!!!! What we have currently are basic tanks that fit Proto gear. Let me explain since you forgot how your own skill tree works, 1 is basic, 3 is advanced, 5 is proto. All tanks right now can currently be unlocked with 1 rank into HAV. This means that no proto tanks currently exsist. We only have one advanced vehicle in the entire game that I know of or can remember and that is an LAV.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 7495	Posted - 2014.04.30 14:05:00 - [147] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Minor Treat wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Ok, obviously it's broken and needs fixed and I'm not trying to defend it, but have you tried: Similarly tiered forgeguns? What about Proto Min Commando w/ swarms? Rail/Missile Tanks? Teamwork? Unrelated to the issue at hand, in all honestly, I'm really against a single player, no matter how dedicated to AV, being able to take on a fully proto-ed tank easily. Eventually yes, a dedicated AV should kill it eventually if not engaged or fled from, but not easily. I like this post. I agree a single AV should not be able to kill a Tank but I like to think that a single AV player should be a thorn in his side if he is spec into AVs Edit: i made a typo I strongly disagree. One player should be able to kill another player, whether in a suit or a vehicle. And I strongly disagree with you. Why are all of you so hell-bent on destroying tanks? Is it not enough if you managed to make it activate its modules and retreat? That's how it should be. A dedicated AV vs a dedicated tank won't be able to kill the tank, but it will be a huge hindrance to the tank and limit its abilities. Though two or more dedicated AV and the dedicated tank should be in trouble. Because that same vehicle is hell-bent on killing our team? No, it is not enough. If a vehicle doesn't/cannot die, then where is the risk involved i using one? You've also yet to list a valid reason as to why it should be that way, so I'll just write this off as bantering from a tanker who feels as if he should never die to another person. Proposed Mobile CRU Changes -HAND
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 983	Posted - 2014.04.30 14:07:00 - [148] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: I wish my dropsuit could self rep like that... Four complex reppers = 24hp/s 1 Compact hive = 50hp/s 2 K17/D = 40hp/s 2 Alloteks = 80hp/s 2 Wiyrkomi = 140hp/s This gets you to 334hp/s. Get your buddy to drop the same pile of hives and you have even more rep than a Maddy - as long as the hives last...
Meknow Intaki 150	Posted - 2014.04.30 14:08:00 - [149] - Quote And if you ever manage to get the upper hand the tanker will just run away....
Bubba Rector BR514 24	Posted - 2014.04.30 14:16:00 - [150] - Quote Leave AV and Vehicles where they are. No buff, no nerf. I feel if it is going to take 2+ players to to take out a tank, then it should take at least 2 people to operate a tank. 1 driving and 1 on a turret. My corp mostly plays factional and when we face big corps, there are at least 3 enemy tanks on the field. Which is fine, mind you. That is part of the game. My problem is 3 tanks only takes away 3 players from hacking objectives. If my corp busts out our AV, we only get maybe 1 shot off. If it takes 6 players to run that same amount of tanks, there will either be less tank spam, or more of an opportunity to use my AV.



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