VIDEO!!!

Dust 514 - Heavy Machine Gun accuracy

Hello guys,

There are lots of heavies that you talk to about their heavy machine gun. When Asking whats wrong with it, a lot of them say that it feels sort of inaccurate, the range is bad, the spread is too much etc etc. People who don't use it would say things Like, "you should crouch and Aim Down Sites" and in all fairness it does help but, just a bit.

The real reason that the heavy machine gun feels so under powered is that it's too accurate. The damage is centered on a point that is as small as the point on the laser rifle's "Aim down sights". So even if you aim down sights or have the target inside your spread at all times, chances are you are not going to deal any worthwhile damage unless you have the target centered.

I could talk about this for ages and I still wouldn't make believers out of the most of you so why not a video.

NEWS!!



Thank you CCP for answering . I hope the video helps the DEVS and the Heavy community alike.

Thank god this issue finally got some dev attention. However (and sorry for being a *****), there were several threads about this issue posted before, describing the HMG aiming/hit detection problem in detail, and they all requested a dev response.
Does one really need to make a friggin' youtube video about an issue to get dev attention around here???

I've read dozens of HMG threads and not one previously said that the problem was that HMG did not fire in a cone as the reticule suggested. Now we have proof of exactly what the problem is and CCP are looking into it. So props to them.

Yep, massive props to Ghaz for proving it in a way that any belligerent idiot could understand. Whoever said "The Copernicus of DUST" is correct.

+1 for the video, as a new Heavy it's very helpful (also explains how I was reliably getting HS at about 20 meters). I am curious though why anyone would want dispersal to fill the entire cone? Yes, it would give you more of a shotgun effect at close range, but at effective range the same number of bullets filling a larger area would do less damage on whoever you hit.

I like the aiming the way it is now, we just need a more representative reticle. When I created this alt it was because I kept seeing threads about the poor damage of the HMG; yet despite that I ran across quite a few (not all) Heavies who could shred people very effectively with it. Maybe it's because I got used to playing with more accurate weapons like the sniper rifle, but I prefer accuracy.

Edit: sorry for the wall:)

I've read dozens of HMG threads and not one previously said that the problem was that HMG did not fire in a cone as the reticule suggested. Now we have proof of exactly what the problem is and CCP are looking into it. So props to them.

This is just one I found with quick search. I remember at least a couple more.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=94513

Agreed

We don't need a smaller reticle. What we want is when someone is within our huge retical for them to be taking lots of damage. Theoretically, when he was 2m away and had half the retical the red dot should have still been taking massive damage. we want our retical to be an accurate description of our dispersion.

I agree it should be accurate, I don't think the dispersion should be as great as the current reticle size as this would nerf it at range.

This is just one I found with quick search. I remember at least a couple more.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=94513

That's science for you. Credit doesn't go to the guy who actually discovers something, but to the person who makes it widely known. I'll be sure to mention Master in the same breath as Ghaz any time this comes up in the future.

His thread confirms we've been dealing with this for quite a while... I think the date of his post is evidence that a change possibly occurred with the range mechanic updates in Uprising 1.2. That is, assuming it hasn't always been this way.

If the HMG where the have the damage fill the circle it would not lose any range. The beginning test shows the the circle tightens enough for it to have the target become bigger than the circle. Anyone wanting to use it farther than 30 meters would have to use ADS and crouch as CCP intended. The close quarters nature of the weapon creates a need for the bullets to fill the spread. This will help en CQC. The spread is not big enough for the player to lose a significant amount of damage, even at ranges farther than 30 meters.


As it stands no matter how close or far your target is if you are not centered you lose 70 - 100% of your damage. Weapons that require pin point accuracy like the laser rifle or the sniper do not need you to be at 30 meters or less where it would be nearly impossible to have your target on the dot for the full engagement.

All argument that increasing the damage to fill the circle is a bad thing are completely invalid because 80% of the HMG population, specially the new ones, used the HMG with the idea that damage was being applied everywhere within the circle. Eve suggesting that ADS and crouching were necessary to reduce spread and hit the target better. My experiments showed that the only gain from ADS and Crouching was a tightening of a spread that is not being a used by the weapon. Therefore we can only conclude that making bullets fill the spread will serve to make the play style that most of us thought the weapon had become a reality.

VIDEO!!!

Dust 514 - Heavy Machine Gun accuracy

Hello guys,

There are lots of heavies that you talk to about their heavy machine gun. When Asking whats wrong with it, a lot of them say that it feels sort of inaccurate, the range is bad, the spread is too much etc etc. People who don't use it would say things Like, "you should crouch and Aim Down Sites" and in all fairness it does help but, just a bit.

The real reason that the heavy machine gun feels so under powered is that it's too accurate. The damage is centered on a point that is as small as the point on the laser rifle's "Aim down sights". So even if you aim down sights or have the target inside your spread at all times, chances are you are not going to deal any worthwhile damage unless you have the target centered.

I could talk about this for ages and I still wouldn't make believers out of the most of you so why not a video.

NEWS!!



Thank you CCP for answering . I hope the video helps the DEVS and the Heavy community alike.

---

I disagree with arguments that say that making the damage fill the circle will make the weapon lose damage because most of the HMG population, specially the new ones, used the HMG with the idea that damage was being applied everywhere within the circle. Even suggesting that ADS and crouching were necessary to reduce spread and hit the target better. My experiments showed that the only gain from ADS and Crouching was a tightening of a spread that is not being a used by the weapon. Therefore we can only conclude that making bullets fill the spread will serve to make the play style that most of us thought the weapon had become a reality.

If the HMG where the have the damage fill the circle it would not lose any range. The beginning test shows the the circle tightens enough for it to have the target become bigger than the circle. Anyone wanting to use it farther than 30 meters would have to use ADS and crouch as CCP intended. The close quarters nature of the weapon creates a need for the bullets to fill the spread. This will help en CQC. The spread is not big enough for the player to lose a significant amount of damage, even at ranges farther than 30 meters.


As it stands no matter how close or far your target is if you are not centered you lose 70 - 100% of your damage. Weapons that require pin point accuracy like the laser rifle or the sniper do not need you to be at 30 meters or less where it would be nearly impossible to have your target on the dot for the full engagement.

All argument that increasing the damage to fill the circle is a bad thing are completely invalid because 80% of the HMG population, specially the new ones, used the HMG with the idea that damage was being applied everywhere within the circle. Eve suggesting that ADS and crouching were necessary to reduce spread and hit the target better. My experiments showed that the only gain from ADS and Crouching was a tightening of a spread that is not being a used by the weapon. Therefore we can only conclude that making bullets fill the spread will serve to make the play style that most of us thought the weapon had become a reality.

Not having had the opportunity in combat to test the range vs percentage of reticle filled by opponent (I'm usually busy trying not to die to ARs); I bow to your test results sir. Incidentally, at what range does the reticle become larger than the target?

Hey guys.

We've had a look at this video and it's pretty cool. Great work pulling it together. :) Love getting this kind of feedback.

We're having a look in to the situation with HMG spread and will keep you posted, mmmmkay.

For reference, in the first example of Ghaz's video, his target was standing at 23m.

Before pulling the trigger, I'd estimate his target filled 20-30% of the aiming reticule. After a second of firing, he filled the majority of it. (my guestimation: 65-80%).

Seems about right to me for how I think it should work, if damage were to actually be linked to how much the target fills the reticule. I'd maybe make it a little tighter so a target filled 75% at 30m.

I'd go for anything at all over the current mechanics in game, though...

IF you go to test two, it shows that if left on, the spread reduces to be smaller than the target if given the time to reach full spread reduction. The specific time of test 2 is second 51

20 minutes.

Still sad.

20 minutes.

Still sad.

Isn't 1.7 already content locked?