DUST Search - The Heavy machine gun, Accuratly inacurate

Disturbingly Bored wrote:

XxGhazbaranxX wrote:

There really is almost no damage applied even when crouched or really close. That damage is mostly being applied to the center dot. I did the tests over range and everything but there really wasn't any point into putting it in there becuase it was redundant footage.

I will say this though, crouching and aiming down sights reduced kick considerably making the user think that the weapon is actually getting more accurate.

Let me rephrase: is there a way to test whether crouching actually increases DPS, or whether the effect of the reticule "tightening" after firing for a second has a confirmable and/or significant effect on DPS?

This is all given the fact that you need the center dot on target to do any damage whatsoever.

ED: For more clarification: My theory is that CCP is simulating dispersion by mathematically reducing damage based on the fraction of the aiming reticule filled by the target. You need to have it centered to do any damage at all, yes, but I'm curious if applied DPS increases the more the target fills the reticule.

I've had this theory for a while now, but can't really figure out a way to test it. I don't believe HMG DPS is reduced simply by a range-to-target calculation the same way the AR gets treated. I believe another factor is involved.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 523	Posted - 2013.11.13 01:22:00 - [1] - Quote Hello guys, There are lots of heavies that you talk to about their heavy machine gun. When Asking whats wrong with it, a lot of them say that it feels sort of inaccurate, the range is bad, the spread is too much etc etc. People who don't use it would say things Like, "you should crouch and Aim Down Sites" and in all fairness it does help but, just a bit. The real reason that the heavy machine gun feels so under powered is that it's too accurate. The damage is centered on a point that is as small as the point on the laser rifle's "Aim down sights". So even if you aim down sights or have the target inside your spread at all times, chances are you are not going to deal any worthwhile damage unless you have the target centered. I could talk about this for ages and I still wouldn't make believers out of the most of you so why not a video. Dust 514 - Heavy Machine Gun accuracy Plasma Cannon Advocate
Himiko Kuronaga The Generals EoN. 2291	Posted - 2013.11.13 01:25:00 - [2] - Quote And yet despite this fact the freedom assault, having the tightest dispersion, also has the best damage application at medium to close range. Doesn't make sense, does it?
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1748	Posted - 2013.11.13 01:28:00 - [3] - Quote That links not working for me.
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 523	Posted - 2013.11.13 01:35:00 - [4] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: That links not working for me. Should be working now Plasma Cannon Advocate
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 523	Posted - 2013.11.13 01:37:00 - [5] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: And yet despite this fact the freedom assault, having the tightest dispersion, also has the best damage application at medium to close range. Doesn't make sense, does it? well the video should clear this up. And you would understand why the HMG feels the way it feels Plasma Cannon Advocate
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1748	Posted - 2013.11.13 01:41:00 - [6] - Quote That just seems odd to me, but seeing it in action is kinda hard to deny. Seemed like earlier builds didn't act like that, I wonder if this is a recent bug?
HowDidThatTaste Ancient Exiles. 3961	Posted - 2013.11.13 01:43:00 - [7] - Quote Wow! Great video sure does clear up a lot of my concerns with the damn thing. In used to never spend points in sharpshooter prior to chromosome for that very reason it tightened the spread to the point it felt week in cqc. Then chromosome came out and sharpshooter actually gave range and was great. Now uprising 1. Whatever we are on and the thing works like poop sprinkles. Hopefully CCP will finally take a look at this video and explain to us all how this is working as intended Thank you very much for making this video! Plus1 Video of why the HMG sucks
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 330	Posted - 2013.11.13 02:05:00 - [8] - Quote Advice from a former HMG heavy in Chromosome, when heavies were much weaker than they are now. -Try to keep the majority of the target within the aiming reticle circle. -Start firing before you actually have a line of sight on your target. This allows your stream of bullets to concentrate to killing efficiency when you engage your enemy instead of having to wait when you engage. -Don't listen to idiots who say strafing is pointless for heavies. ALWAYS STRAFE! Strafe with the primary goal of tracking your target. Your secondary goal should be to avoid enemy fire. -Cover is your friend and worst enemy. Don't rely on your EHP to keep you alive, use cover. When an enemy uses cover, a portion of their body is protected and reduces your HMG's killing power. -The Gallente logi-LAV not only mitigates a heavy's poor mobility, but also provides an armor rep. Blatant Dust_514 recruiting in the silliest of places. :P
HowDidThatTaste Ancient Exiles. 3961	Posted - 2013.11.13 02:07:00 - [9] - Quote I can't imagine that this is working as intended however if they turned the aim assist on for the HMG exactly like it for the AR The HMG would definetly be on an equal playing field in cqc.
HowDidThatTaste Ancient Exiles. 3961	Posted - 2013.11.13 02:08:00 - [10] - Quote medomai grey wrote: Advice from a former HMG heavy in Chromosome, when heavies were much weaker than they are now. -Try to keep the majority of the target within the aiming reticle circle. -Start firing before you actually have a line of sight on your target. This allows your stream of bullets to concentrate to killing efficiency when you engage your enemy instead of having to wait when you engage. -Don't listen to idiots who say strafing is pointless for heavies. ALWAYS STRAFE! Strafe with the primary goal of tracking your target. Your secondary goal should be to avoid enemy fire. -Cover is your friend and worst enemy. Don't rely on your EHP to keep you alive, use cover. When an enemy uses cover, a portion of their body is protected and reduces your HMG's killing power. -The Gallente logi-LAV not only mitigates a heavy's poor mobility, but also provides an armor rep. Please watch the video chromosome heavy we did not have this issue then.

XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 529	Posted - 2013.11.13 02:14:00 - [11] - Quote medomai grey wrote: Advice from a former HMG heavy in Chromosome, when heavies were much weaker than they are now. -Try to keep the majority of the target within the aiming reticle circle. -Start firing before you actually have a line of sight on your target. This allows your stream of bullets to concentrate to killing efficiency when you engage your enemy instead of having to wait when you engage. -Don't listen to idiots who say strafing is pointless for heavies. ALWAYS STRAFE! Strafe with the primary goal of tracking your target. Your secondary goal should be to avoid enemy fire. -Cover is your friend and worst enemy. Don't rely on your EHP to keep you alive, use cover. When an enemy uses cover, a portion of their body is protected and reduces your HMG's killing power. -The Gallente logi-LAV not only mitigates a heavy's poor mobility, but also provides an armor rep. Did you even see the video before posting?? This isn't a rant or a post saying the HMG is a bad weapon, I just posted whats wrong with the weapon period. Plasma Cannon Advocate
Nguruthos IX PEN 15 CLUB 2164	Posted - 2013.11.13 02:16:00 - [12] - Quote maybe same problem with small blaster turrets they got broken in 1.5 and havnt been worth anything since.!
I-Shayz-I I-----I 1353	Posted - 2013.11.13 02:29:00 - [13] - Quote I've known this for a while now. It's how the game works...basically the damage is calculated based on whether or not the tiny dot in the center is red. Other weapons (like the assault rifle) have a larger area that will turn it red. If that small dot was bigger (say, the size of the actual reticule?) maybe the HMG would work like it's supposed to. sigh -_- BTW, put the link at the top of your post. That way people click on it first, and let them know it's the video, or to watch it first before reading. Links: List of Important Topics I make logistics videos!
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 1286	Posted - 2013.11.13 02:52:00 - [14] - Quote I've thought that dispersion was a problem, but it looks as though I stand corrected. The reticle leads you to believe that the entire inner circle should be covered in fire. With the dot mostly just for a better "sense" of center. Of course, this Dust and I'll have to really find out for myself, but... +1 Cheeseburgers.
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1142	Posted - 2013.11.13 02:53:00 - [15] - Quote +1 for science, and if Cyrius Li-Moody posts here, he'll get a +1 for taking one (or two, or three) for the team. At the risk of sounding like an ass, however: Red reticule means you are doing damage. White reticule means you are not. We all intuitively knew this, whether or not we had confirmation that the tiny little dot in the center is what determines the activation of the reticule. Is there any way you can turn your considerable scientific talents to determining the reduction in HMG damage based on distance, or whether the larger circle in the reticule has any effect on applied damage whatsoever? I'll provide you with a near-endless stream of Likes if you can keep this going. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 1277	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:02:00 - [16] - Quote Thanks for posting the vid! It only further proves what us heavies have known and struggled with since 1.0 launched. +1 to you good sir! "The true measure of a shinobi is not how he lives, but how he dies." *- The Toad Sage*
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 542	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:10:00 - [17] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: +1 for science, and if Cyrius Li-Moody posts here, he'll get a +1 for taking one (or two, or three) for the team. At the risk of sounding like an ass, however: Red reticule means you are doing damage. White reticule means you are not. We all intuitively knew this, whether or not we had confirmation that the tiny little dot in the center is what determines the activation of the reticule. Is there any way you can turn your considerable scientific talents to determining the reduction in HMG damage based on distance, or whether the larger circle in the reticule has any effect on applied damage whatsoever? I'll provide you with a near-endless stream of Likes if you can keep this going. There really is almost no damage applied even when crouched or really close. That damage is mostly being applied to the center dot. I did the tests over range and everything but there really wasn't any point into putting it in there becuase it was redundant footage. I will say this though, crouching and aiming down sights reduced kick considerably making the user think that the weapon is actually getting more accurate. Plasma Cannon Advocate
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1507	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:11:00 - [18] - Quote Hmmm... Tighten the HMG reticule, and slightly increase dispersion? For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 330	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:15:00 - [19] - Quote Very good video. Had no idea they changed the HMG mechanics. Blatant Dust_514 recruiting in the silliest of places. :P
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1143	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:20:00 - [20] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: There really is almost no damage applied even when crouched or really close. That damage is mostly being applied to the center dot. I did the tests over range and everything but there really wasn't any point into putting it in there becuase it was redundant footage. I will say this though, crouching and aiming down sights reduced kick considerably making the user think that the weapon is actually getting more accurate. Let me rephrase: is there a way to test whether crouching actually increases DPS, or whether the effect of the reticule "tightening" after firing for a second has a confirmable and/or significant effect on DPS? This is all given the fact that you need the center dot on target to do any damage whatsoever. ED: For more clarification: My theory is that CCP is simulating dispersion by mathematically reducing damage based on the fraction of the aiming reticule filled by the target. You need to have it centered to do any damage at all, yes, but I'm curious if applied DPS increases the more the target fills the reticule. I've had this theory for a while now, but can't really figure out a way to test it. I don't believe HMG DPS is reduced simply by a range-to-target calculation the same way the AR gets treated. I believe another factor is involved. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù

XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 543	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:27:00 - [21] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: There really is almost no damage applied even when crouched or really close. That damage is mostly being applied to the center dot. I did the tests over range and everything but there really wasn't any point into putting it in there becuase it was redundant footage. I will say this though, crouching and aiming down sights reduced kick considerably making the user think that the weapon is actually getting more accurate. Let me rephrase: is there a way to test whether crouching actually increases DPS, or whether the effect of the reticule "tightening" after firing for a second has a confirmable and/or significant effect on DPS? This is all given the fact that you need the center dot on target to do any damage whatsoever. ED: For more clarification: My theory is that CCP is simulating dispersion by mathematically reducing damage based on the fraction of the aiming reticule filled by the target. You need to have it centered to do any damage at all, yes, but I'm curious if applied DPS increases the more the target fills the reticule. I've had this theory for a while now, but can't really figure out a way to test it. I don't believe HMG DPS is reduced simply by a range-to-target calculation the same way the AR gets treated. I believe another factor is involved. Crouching just reduces the the large spread (circle) giving a sense of more accuracy. What makes it more accurate is that the gun's kick isn't throwing your gun off target. At least that's what tests have shown me. The close range footage is exactly how it would work when crouched. Your damage is still centered and not affected by how much "spread" the gun has. Plasma Cannon Advocate
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1143	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:33:00 - [22] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Crouching just reduces the the large spread (circle) giving a sense of more accuracy. What makes it more accurate is that the gun's kick isn't throwing your gun off target. At least that's what tests have shown me. The close range footage is exactly how it would work when crouched. Your damage is still centered and not affected by how much "spread" the gun has. Okay, good to know. So in your opinion, the poor performance of the HMG at 30m (a distance still within HMG optimal range), is essentially due to bad player aim because of a misunderstanding of how the reticule actually works? If so... I guess I need to "get gud." ED: I suppose that would mean the "aim tightening" effect of firing the HMG for a second is almost totally for flavor and has no effect whatsoever if your aim is good. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 543	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:47:00 - [23] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Crouching just reduces the the large spread (circle) giving a sense of more accuracy. What makes it more accurate is that the gun's kick isn't throwing your gun off target. At least that's what tests have shown me. The close range footage is exactly how it would work when crouched. Your damage is still centered and not affected by how much "spread" the gun has. Okay, good to know. So in your opinion, the poor performance of the HMG at 30m (a distance still within HMG optimal range), is essentially due to bad player aim because of a misunderstanding of how the reticule actually works? If so... I guess I need to "get gud." I don't think the HMG user has to need to be a pin point shooter. Not even AR's have to be pin point. Thats the whole deal, the HMG is not functioning as a weapon that inherently has spread. It's functioning as a weapon that has no spread. If I have My opponent in my circle I expect to be dealing at least some damage but this does not hold up. Disturbingly Bored wrote: ED: I suppose that would mean the "aim tightening" effect of firing the HMG for a second is almost totally for flavor and has no effect whatsoever if your aim is good. It certainly appears to be that way. Plasma Cannon Advocate
Text Grant Death Firm. 220	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:56:00 - [24] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1482038#post1482038
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1143	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:57:00 - [25] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: I don't think the HMG user has to need to be a pin point shooter. Not even AR's have to be pin point. Thats the whole deal, the HMG is not functioning as a weapon that inherently has spread. It's functioning as a weapon that has no spread. If I have My opponent in my circle I expect to be dealing at least some damage but this does not hold up. Well sir, you have inspired me. Off to do some testing. If this is all correct, and lost DPS at range is actually lost to kick taking the center dot off target, an Assault HMG should be able to top a similar tier Assault Rifle at all ranges provided your aim is true. (The AHMG actually has a superior range profile and DPS.) I'm going to leave my pre-conceived prejudices at the door and give it the good ol' college try. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
DeadlyAztec11 Gallente Federation 2517	Posted - 2013.11.13 04:07:00 - [26] - Quote I thought everybody knew this. I would have at least thought that anybody that had HMG'S past standard would have known this. This is why I never understood how people could call the HMG inaccurate. Anyways, keep crouching and keep aiming down the sights. Peace, Madness is the emergency exit. You can just step outside, and close the door on all those dreadful things that happened.
HowDidThatTaste Ancient Exiles. 3964	Posted - 2013.11.13 04:12:00 - [27] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: I thought everybody knew this. I would have at least thought that anybody that had HMG'S past standard would have known this. This is why I never understood how people could call the HMG inaccurate. Anyways, keep crouching and keep aiming down the sights. Peace, . Lol
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 1853	Posted - 2013.11.13 04:13:00 - [28] - Quote WTF did i just watched? Ive allways thought the bullets go all over the place but seeing that is just mind blowing. For a example the hipfire from a AR has a wider area to cover then the HMG. I dont think that this is actually intended and funny thing is we all demanded better accuracy for the HMG. I believe we can all agree that the accuracy needs to be toned down so that it actually is lethal up close. I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
Summ Dude Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 73	Posted - 2013.11.13 04:15:00 - [29] - Quote Yea I kinda thought this was common knowledge, at least among HMG users. But I won't complain about having video evidence. Although I recall that among every single thread that has brought this problem up, there's been literally zero blue tags in response, which kinda worries me.
DeadlyAztec11 Gallente Federation 2517	Posted - 2013.11.13 04:45:00 - [30] - Quote HowDidThatTaste wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: I thought everybody knew this. I would have at least thought that anybody that had HMG'S past standard would have known this. This is why I never understood how people could call the HMG inaccurate. Anyways, keep crouching and keep aiming down the sights. Peace, . Lol Bitter sweet my friend, bitter sweet. Madness is the emergency exit. You can just step outside, and close the door on all those dreadful things that happened.



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