DUST Search - The Heavy machine gun, Accuratly inacurate

Disturbingly Bored wrote:

Slag Emberforge wrote:

To avoid breaking the gun worse I would say the HMG needs a few things to be what it should:
1. Increase optimal range/reduce rate of damage fall off (think a slope not an exponential curve)
2. Increase bullet size, that's right, increase the amount if area the bullet takes up and thereby increasing chance of bullets hitting and grazing the target.
3. Increase dispersion to fill cone at 30/40m

You end up with more bullets hitting, and at actually gaining use of the entire reticle at max range (or close to it)

Thoughts?

Honestly, I think you're asking for a heck of a lot of change at once. Just changing the mechanics of how the gun does damage, and nothing else, can totally change its balance in the game.

I wonder if CCP would ever change this, though...

I also wonder if it was ever different than what it is today. Hard to tell for certain. If it was changed, I'd likely point to range profile changes in 1.2. Which means we've been living with this for a while.

ED: And just to clarify per your post point #2: there actually is no bullet in terms of game mechanics. It's hitscan. Pull trigger, do damage. Everything else is just graphics.

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Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 475	Posted - 2013.11.13 10:40:00 - [61] - Quote I think the second graph would serve as a 'how people believe the HMG should function' and the third graph indicates pretty well how it is now according to your nice experiments Ghaz. Ghaz: Could you summarize this thread and submit it as a bug report? Feel free to use my graphs to examplify to CCP what the problem is. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. "Core Locus 514. AR 514. Bricktank 514. COD 514."
George Moros Area 514 158	Posted - 2013.11.13 11:23:00 - [62] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: VIDEO!!! Dust 514 - Heavy Machine Gun accuracy Hello guys, There are lots of heavies that you talk to about their heavy machine gun. When Asking whats wrong with it, a lot of them say that it feels sort of inaccurate, the range is bad, the spread is too much etc etc. People who don't use it would say things Like, "you should crouch and Aim Down Sites" and in all fairness it does help but, just a bit. The real reason that the heavy machine gun feels so under powered is that it's too accurate. The damage is centered on a point that is as small as the point on the laser rifle's "Aim down sights". So even if you aim down sights or have the target inside your spread at all times, chances are you are not going to deal any worthwhile damage unless you have the target centered. I could talk about this for ages and I still wouldn't make believers out of the most of you so why not a video. I'm so glad someone finally made a video about HMG's aiming mechanics. There were several threads about this problem, but none had any videos to demonstrate this, and (more disturbingly) none of the threads ever received any attention from the devs. The main question here is whether this is working as intended (which is possible, but completely counterintuitive and lacking any meaningful connection with how a highly dispersive gatling gun should operate in reality), or is this simply a bug that CCP haven't payed any attention to (for whatever reason). In any case, I think the DUST community deserves an answer from the devs regarding this issue.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 475	Posted - 2013.11.13 11:33:00 - [63] - Quote Possible that CCP misplaced a decimal somewhere, forgot to update some value in the code when changing others (when adding new content), since they didnt change the sight to account for these changes. CCP seem to usually be very careful when doing these kind of changed to get every part right. I believe this is a bug. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. I Support SP Rollover. "Core Locus 514. AR 514. Bricktank 514. COD 514."
castba Penguin's March 196	Posted - 2013.11.13 11:42:00 - [64] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: castba wrote: Right, so the hmg issue is how the system registers and calculates damage. Could it be set this way because it would be too taxing to calculate each individual round with the speed they are fired? Also interested if the burst has been tested? Nobody seems to mention the burst when discussing hmg issues. The Burst HMG is actually my favorite but also a bit more situational. With the burst I can pulse when I'm dead center and wait when I'm not and deal possibly even more damage because of it. The only drawback Is that the heat buildup is too quick and I only get about 4 bursts before overheat. Count the bunny hops and calculate for damage loss and the enemy is still not dead by overheat time unless they have a period when they are still. I can make a video of it if you guys like, I'll put it into my to do list. I have to find a way to get passed 1.6 with my sanity in tact. Yeah, I only just discovered the burst. Love the reward and added challenge of closing more distance than the other variants. I only ask because the reticle seems to display slightly differently (shows an x between the dot and the large circle at times - ads?). Also, as with others I would be interested if you were able to similarly test out the shot gun. Thanks in advance - for when you actually have the time/could be bothered
Nin Ker Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 54	Posted - 2013.11.13 11:46:00 - [65] - Quote Been using the HMG since I had only a mill SP and I'm still using now I'm up to 14. That said I recently spent some on the AR and the HMG does seem so much harder to aim with. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy it but in terms of killing power it really does feel sub par.
Ninjanomyx Ancient Exiles 431	Posted - 2013.11.13 11:56:00 - [66] - Quote Thanx for the Video. I knew something was off when people were saying it was bad in even CQC Ranges nowadays..... I remember it being slightly Conal as per the Circle Recticle, even after "Doom Mode" was added, lending to its true purpose. I could wave the HMG like a WiiMote around the skulls of Redberries & make Strawberry Jam back then..... Now??? Just an AR with terrible Accuracy...... No wonder the "Pin Effect" of the Stream is now easier to Strafe around.....even after Strafing was Nerfed..... Since my level of F**KS given was Nerfed after Tank Large Turret Rendering was broken.....my willingness to play BETA Tester for CCP went to Nil....as my Morale was brought to about the same @ yes....lol @ Small Blasters, even Large Blasters since sometimes I feel as if I'm dead on yet hit Oxygen every other shot, even when Controlled Firing. HitScan Weapons that were not granted God King AR & Prince Ali SMG Aimbot are suffering....go figure
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 162	Posted - 2013.11.13 12:19:00 - [67] - Quote well done sir, I am astounded, I'm curios to see if this helps my roomate.
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1147	Posted - 2013.11.13 12:40:00 - [68] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: with an in your face optimal that people can just bunny hop and strafe I'm not sure you're reading your own results correctly there, Ghaz. 30m optimal isn't that horrible compared to AR's 38m, and AHMG has 43m. If your main point is accurate, and I believe it is, the actual optimal and effective range stats of HMG have no problems whatsoever. I have an idea on how you can test this: Set up a video, put your aim dead center on your target, and record time to kill at full-auto at 5m and at 30m for the MH-82 HMG, and at 5m and at 40m for the MO-4 Assault HMG. If the time-to-kill is identical, it would be definitive proof that the HMG has no range issues at all, and instead poor performance at range is a product of needing absolutely perfect aim to keep damage on target. Galvan Nized wrote: I'm curious, does the shotgun have a similar problem? Meaning...does the actual reticule reflect where all the pellets are going or is it much more concentrated than it lets on? That would be really, really interesting to see. It could be that every single weapon in the game has pin-point perfect accuracy, and that all problems stem from our perceptions on how they should work. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
HUNK tm What The French 15	Posted - 2013.11.13 12:46:00 - [69] - Quote Thank you a lot for this test in video. I always had the impression that the dispersion of HMG was low. It is a paradox ! Why the HMG seems so inaccurate ?
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4346	Posted - 2013.11.13 13:22:00 - [70] - Quote Oh look at that, my theory was right. I was baffled at why people deemed the HMG as a bad weapon, as when I used it, it was a great thing, and the only thing I could think of is "they suck at aiming". I was right all along, huzzah. Puts on flame shield *Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant* *Beta Vet* *Level 4 Forum Warrior*

Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 210	Posted - 2013.11.13 13:26:00 - [71] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: VIDEO!!! Dust 514 - Heavy Machine Gun accuracy Hello guys, There are lots of heavies that you talk to about their heavy machine gun. When Asking whats wrong with it, a lot of them say that it feels sort of inaccurate, the range is bad, the spread is too much etc etc. People who don't use it would say things Like, "you should crouch and Aim Down Sites" and in all fairness it does help but, just a bit. The real reason that the heavy machine gun feels so under powered is that it's too accurate. The damage is centered on a point that is as small as the point on the laser rifle's "Aim down sights". So even if you aim down sights or have the target inside your spread at all times, chances are you are not going to deal any worthwhile damage unless you have the target centered. I could talk about this for ages and I still wouldn't make believers out of the most of you so why not a video. I think its the same with shotguns and its stupid as both weapons take great advantage of spread...
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1148	Posted - 2013.11.13 13:57:00 - [72] - Quote Okay, refined video request. If we could get the following "on tape" it'd put a lot of different things to rest. EQUIPMENT: Use a basic Heavy Machine Gun no damage mods, because lower damage gives longer and less ambiguous time-to-kill. Have your target record the shield and armor HP of his fit. Have him stand still and heal to full between each test. Aim for center mass so every shot hits. GÇó Firing full-auto at 5m until target is dead (baseline) GÇó Firing full-auto at 29m until target is dead (just under max effective range test) GÇó Firing full-auto at 39m until target is dead (we could calculate DPS lost to falloff) GÇó Firing full-auto at 48m until target is dead (calculate falloff at max effective range) GÇó Test if Aim Assist applies to HMG: simply have your target move side to side with AA on without adjusting your aim. If the reticule moves, AA works for HMG. I can calculate time-to-kill, DPS, and DPS lost just from having the video of all of the above. I'll send 10 million ISK to you and your test-dummy each for posting the link in this thread. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
HUNK tm What The French 15	Posted - 2013.11.13 14:22:00 - [73] - Quote The new heavy weapon : Heavy machine gun "Sasha" Why the HMG seems so inaccurate ?
jamstar saa187 the third day Public Disorder. 59	Posted - 2013.11.13 15:41:00 - [74] - Quote just saw the video. i would have never guessed THAT was the problem with the HMG, but that is hard evidence to refute. YOU sir are on to something with this. well done! hopefully CCP will take a look at that video and fix the mechanics of the weapon to work as intended.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 481	Posted - 2013.11.13 16:37:00 - [75] - Quote Doesnt make sense that such a weapons accuracy/spread increase with range. It should spread like a cone. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. I Support SP Rollover. "Core Locus 514. AR 514. Bricktank 514. COD 514."
George Moros Area 514 159	Posted - 2013.11.13 17:05:00 - [76] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: GÇó Test if Aim Assist applies to HMG: simply have your target move side to side with AA on without adjusting your aim. If the reticule moves, AA works for HMG. I can confirm that AA applies to HMG. I have witnessed on many occasions that reticule moves to follow the target without me adjusting my aim. However, I would rather have HMG aiming function as everyone expects it to (everything caught in the aiming ring takes damage), and have AA disabled, than have AA enabled and aiming functioning like it does now.
Powerh8er Norwegian Dust514 Corporation Top Men. 328	Posted - 2013.11.13 17:46:00 - [77] - Quote It needs more range and damage to function and be worthy the name heavy machine gun.
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 576	Posted - 2013.11.13 17:57:00 - [78] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: with an in your face optimal that people can just bunny hop and strafe I'm not sure you're reading your own results correctly there, Ghaz. 30m optimal isn't that horrible compared to AR's 38m, and AHMG has It could be that every single weapon in the game has pin-point perfect accuracy, and that all problems stem from our perceptions on how they should work. At 30 meters your target can still effectively bunny hop and strafe enough of your damage. That All I meant. There is no loss in damage based on mechanics. The loss is purely because the opponent is strafing and jumping making it a lot harder to keep the dot centered. And the weapon is in your face because everyone is fighting at 50 meters+ unless it's a battle for a point but even then ther are shooting way before they even get close enough t be effective with the weapon. Plasma Cannon Advocate
Vexen Arc OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 35	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:01:00 - [79] - Quote There had better be a good reason why the Devs have all but ignored communicating with the players about the state of the HMG, and heavy weapons/suits in general. I would really like the CPM to petition CCP to make a statement about whether this is working as intended. Thanks for posting this video.
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 122	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:11:00 - [80] - Quote To avoid breaking the gun worse I would say the HMG needs a few things to be what it should: 1. Increase optimal range/reduce rate of damage fall off (think a slope not an exponential curve) 2. Increase bullet size, that's right, increase the amount if area the bullet takes up and thereby increasing chance of bullets hitting and grazing the target. 3. Increase dispersion to fill cone at 30/40m You end up with more bullets hitting, and at actually gaining use of the entire reticle at max range (or close to it) Thoughts?

Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 2175	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:13:00 - [81] - Quote Great stuff, OP. +1 (I see Moody!)
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 122	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:13:00 - [82] - Quote We need some feedback CCP! What do we want, a response from the DEVs!! When did we want it, 1.5!
martinofski Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 325	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:15:00 - [83] - Quote I have been testing this when uprising came out, but didn't had anything to record testing. I was actually looking at the damage fall off. Great video. I feel just bad the DEV haven't found that already, and if they did, they didn't solved it yet. The idea I had: The damage should be dealt depending on the Area % the enemy take in that reticle. Far away, low %=low damage. CQC, higher %=good CQC weapon. Then adjust the range of the weapon to longer range, since you know, a perfectly aimed guy at 40m will cover only 10% of the reticle anyway. When the reticle reduce in size like it does, it directly increase the % of area if you are still aiming in center, dealing better damage at long range, but not so different at short range, where the guy already take 90% of the area. Just a tought. See you in a couple more months, when I feel like commenting on something again, or playing...
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1149	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:51:00 - [84] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: To avoid breaking the gun worse I would say the HMG needs a few things to be what it should: 1. Increase optimal range/reduce rate of damage fall off (think a slope not an exponential curve) 2. Increase bullet size, that's right, increase the amount if area the bullet takes up and thereby increasing chance of bullets hitting and grazing the target. 3. Increase dispersion to fill cone at 30/40m You end up with more bullets hitting, and at actually gaining use of the entire reticle at max range (or close to it) Thoughts? Honestly, I think you're asking for a heck of a lot of change at once. Just changing the mechanics of how the gun does damage, and nothing else, can totally change its balance in the game. I wonder if CCP would ever change this, though... I also wonder if it was ever different than what it is today. Hard to tell for certain. If it was changed, I'd likely point to range profile changes in 1.2. Which means we've been living with this for a while. ED: And just to clarify per your post point #2: there actually is no bullet in terms of game mechanics. It's hitscan. Pull trigger, do damage. Everything else is just graphics. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
HowDidThatTaste Ancient Exiles. 3968	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:53:00 - [85] - Quote Well I went ahead and made a ticket with your great video OP and sent in to support. I suggest all of the heavies out there do the same thing. There was most certainly a cone effect in earlier iterations of this weapon so this has to be a bug.
lDocHollidayl Ancient Exiles. 342	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:07:00 - [86] - Quote I saw 87 bullets leave your gun. The victim had 630 hp. I am at work but can anyone find out the dps vs actual dps?
Heimdallr69 Imperfect Bastards 1270	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:10:00 - [87] - Quote You guys have my support I'm assault I run carthum with assaults or when I run logi...I only use heavies for the forge I support a hmg buff...singed by a slayer I'm everyone's type
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1149	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:41:00 - [88] - Quote lDocHollidayl wrote: I saw 87 bullets leave your gun. The victim had 630 hp. I am at work but can anyone find out the dps vs actual dps? I'm inclined to believe it's just a graphical effect. 87 bullets against 630hp would work out to 7ish damage a bullet, when the Boundless he used does a bare minimum of 19.8. Ghaz starts firing at 0:34 and Cyrius is dead before 0:36 in the video, so it's spitting out more than that. Unless you counted every bullet in the video... ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 123	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:08:00 - [89] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: Slag Emberforge wrote: To avoid breaking the gun worse I would say the HMG needs a few things to be what it should: 1. Increase optimal range/reduce rate of damage fall off (think a slope not an exponential curve) 2. Increase bullet size, that's right, increase the amount if area the bullet takes up and thereby increasing chance of bullets hitting and grazing the target. 3. Increase dispersion to fill cone at 30/40m You end up with more bullets hitting, and at actually gaining use of the entire reticle at max range (or close to it) Thoughts? Honestly, I think you're asking for a heck of a lot of change at once. Just changing the mechanics of how the gun does damage, and nothing else, can totally change its balance in the game. I wonder if CCP would ever change this, though... I also wonder if it was ever different than what it is today. Hard to tell for certain. If it was changed, I'd likely point to range profile changes in 1.2. Which means we've been living with this for a while. ED: And just to clarify per your post point #2: there actually is no bullet in terms of game mechanics. It's hitscan. Pull trigger, do damage. Everything else is just graphics. Hitscan or bullet it does not matter make the area that lines up with the enemies hit box larger would in effect make more like firing a projectile and less like a laser pointer. If you want to think of it in terms of the size of the reticle being the rough area of the "hitscan" then it is a needle currently, make the diameter/area larger. I hope that clarifies it a bit, I apologize if it is still unclear as I am a bit sleep deprived.
RAMB0 Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:20:00 - [90] - Quote This why I might not be playing this game after I get my pre ordered ps4 on friday. BTW the machine gun in Doom 20 years ago worked much better that the HMG in Dust lol



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