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The Heavy machine gun, Accuratly inacurate

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Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1142	Posted - 2013.11.13 02:53:00 - [1] - Quote +1 for science, and if Cyrius Li-Moody posts here, he'll get a +1 for taking one (or two, or three) for the team. At the risk of sounding like an ass, however: Red reticule means you are doing damage. White reticule means you are not. We all intuitively knew this, whether or not we had confirmation that the tiny little dot in the center is what determines the activation of the reticule. Is there any way you can turn your considerable scientific talents to determining the reduction in HMG damage based on distance, or whether the larger circle in the reticule has any effect on applied damage whatsoever? I'll provide you with a near-endless stream of Likes if you can keep this going. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1143	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:20:00 - [2] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: There really is almost no damage applied even when crouched or really close. That damage is mostly being applied to the center dot. I did the tests over range and everything but there really wasn't any point into putting it in there becuase it was redundant footage. I will say this though, crouching and aiming down sights reduced kick considerably making the user think that the weapon is actually getting more accurate. Let me rephrase: is there a way to test whether crouching actually increases DPS, or whether the effect of the reticule "tightening" after firing for a second has a confirmable and/or significant effect on DPS? This is all given the fact that you need the center dot on target to do any damage whatsoever. ED: For more clarification: My theory is that CCP is simulating dispersion by mathematically reducing damage based on the fraction of the aiming reticule filled by the target. You need to have it centered to do any damage at all, yes, but I'm curious if applied DPS increases the more the target fills the reticule. I've had this theory for a while now, but can't really figure out a way to test it. I don't believe HMG DPS is reduced simply by a range-to-target calculation the same way the AR gets treated. I believe another factor is involved. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1143	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:33:00 - [3] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Crouching just reduces the the large spread (circle) giving a sense of more accuracy. What makes it more accurate is that the gun's kick isn't throwing your gun off target. At least that's what tests have shown me. The close range footage is exactly how it would work when crouched. Your damage is still centered and not affected by how much "spread" the gun has. Okay, good to know. So in your opinion, the poor performance of the HMG at 30m (a distance still within HMG optimal range), is essentially due to bad player aim because of a misunderstanding of how the reticule actually works? If so... I guess I need to "get gud." ED: I suppose that would mean the "aim tightening" effect of firing the HMG for a second is almost totally for flavor and has no effect whatsoever if your aim is good. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1143	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:57:00 - [4] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: I don't think the HMG user has to need to be a pin point shooter. Not even AR's have to be pin point. Thats the whole deal, the HMG is not functioning as a weapon that inherently has spread. It's functioning as a weapon that has no spread. If I have My opponent in my circle I expect to be dealing at least some damage but this does not hold up. Well sir, you have inspired me. Off to do some testing. If this is all correct, and lost DPS at range is actually lost to kick taking the center dot off target, an Assault HMG should be able to top a similar tier Assault Rifle at all ranges provided your aim is true. (The AHMG actually has a superior range profile and DPS.) I'm going to leave my pre-conceived prejudices at the door and give it the good ol' college try. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1145	Posted - 2013.11.13 05:10:00 - [5] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: I'm going to leave my pre-conceived prejudices at the door and give it the good ol' college try. Well, I just went out and made an attempt at using the MO-4 against some decent AR players at range. I'd say the OP's general description is correct... it felt more like using the Laser Rifle than anything else. But even at 35m, my Proficiency 5 MO-4 Assault HMG didn't feel any more powerful than my no-SP Templar Scrambler Rifle. It might have something to do with the individual bullet damage being so low. You essentially have to keep a steady pin-point stream on target at range to kill it. The Assault HMG is, in effect, a weird-looking laser rifle. Bursting my shots seemed to be of no detriment nor benefit. Kick wasn't an issue, but low bullet damage made bursting pointless. I'm now thinking the HMG's poor performance at range simply has to do with the Heavy's inability to juke properly. My targets were jumping and two-stepping all over the screen, and even when I attempted to do the same in a ranged fight, I was too big and too easy a target. Needs more testing. In the mean time, AR HEAVIES: Please give the Assault HMG a shot, use it the same as you do an AR or laser rifle, and post your results. This should be interesting. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1145	Posted - 2013.11.13 05:53:00 - [6] - Quote I don't know if it's actually a bug. It may have always been this way. We just lolled at the description that read "pin-point accurate stream of gunfire." Turns out it's true. Psychology and subjectivity trolled us... ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1147	Posted - 2013.11.13 12:40:00 - [7] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: with an in your face optimal that people can just bunny hop and strafe I'm not sure you're reading your own results correctly there, Ghaz. 30m optimal isn't that horrible compared to AR's 38m, and AHMG has 43m. If your main point is accurate, and I believe it is, the actual optimal and effective range stats of HMG have no problems whatsoever. I have an idea on how you can test this: Set up a video, put your aim dead center on your target, and record time to kill at full-auto at 5m and at 30m for the MH-82 HMG, and at 5m and at 40m for the MO-4 Assault HMG. If the time-to-kill is identical, it would be definitive proof that the HMG has no range issues at all, and instead poor performance at range is a product of needing absolutely perfect aim to keep damage on target. Galvan Nized wrote: I'm curious, does the shotgun have a similar problem? Meaning...does the actual reticule reflect where all the pellets are going or is it much more concentrated than it lets on? That would be really, really interesting to see. It could be that every single weapon in the game has pin-point perfect accuracy, and that all problems stem from our perceptions on how they should work. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1148	Posted - 2013.11.13 13:57:00 - [8] - Quote Okay, refined video request. If we could get the following "on tape" it'd put a lot of different things to rest. EQUIPMENT: Use a basic Heavy Machine Gun no damage mods, because lower damage gives longer and less ambiguous time-to-kill. Have your target record the shield and armor HP of his fit. Have him stand still and heal to full between each test. Aim for center mass so every shot hits. GÇó Firing full-auto at 5m until target is dead (baseline) GÇó Firing full-auto at 29m until target is dead (just under max effective range test) GÇó Firing full-auto at 39m until target is dead (we could calculate DPS lost to falloff) GÇó Firing full-auto at 48m until target is dead (calculate falloff at max effective range) GÇó Test if Aim Assist applies to HMG: simply have your target move side to side with AA on without adjusting your aim. If the reticule moves, AA works for HMG. I can calculate time-to-kill, DPS, and DPS lost just from having the video of all of the above. I'll send 10 million ISK to you and your test-dummy each for posting the link in this thread. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1149	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:51:00 - [9] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: To avoid breaking the gun worse I would say the HMG needs a few things to be what it should: 1. Increase optimal range/reduce rate of damage fall off (think a slope not an exponential curve) 2. Increase bullet size, that's right, increase the amount if area the bullet takes up and thereby increasing chance of bullets hitting and grazing the target. 3. Increase dispersion to fill cone at 30/40m You end up with more bullets hitting, and at actually gaining use of the entire reticle at max range (or close to it) Thoughts? Honestly, I think you're asking for a heck of a lot of change at once. Just changing the mechanics of how the gun does damage, and nothing else, can totally change its balance in the game. I wonder if CCP would ever change this, though... I also wonder if it was ever different than what it is today. Hard to tell for certain. If it was changed, I'd likely point to range profile changes in 1.2. Which means we've been living with this for a while. ED: And just to clarify per your post point #2: there actually is no bullet in terms of game mechanics. It's hitscan. Pull trigger, do damage. Everything else is just graphics. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1149	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:41:00 - [10] - Quote lDocHollidayl wrote: I saw 87 bullets leave your gun. The victim had 630 hp. I am at work but can anyone find out the dps vs actual dps? I'm inclined to believe it's just a graphical effect. 87 bullets against 630hp would work out to 7ish damage a bullet, when the Boundless he used does a bare minimum of 19.8. Ghaz starts firing at 0:34 and Cyrius is dead before 0:36 in the video, so it's spitting out more than that. Unless you counted every bullet in the video... ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù

Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1151	Posted - 2013.11.13 21:24:00 - [11] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: Hitscan or bullet it does not matter make the area that lines up with the enemies hit box larger would in effect make more like firing a projectile and less like a laser pointer. If you want to think of it in terms of the size of the reticle being the rough area of the "hitscan" then it is a needle currently, make the diameter/area larger. I hope that clarifies it a bit, I apologize if it is still unclear as I am a bit sleep deprived. All good, sir, and yes it does. I was just hoping to be crystal clear about the mechanics, since this weapon already works in a way that's different from what we expected... XxGhazbaranxX wrote: At 30 meters your target can still effectively bunny hop and strafe enough of your damage. That All I meant. There is no loss in damage based on mechanics. Gotcha. Do you think a video demonstrating damage over range wouldn't be useful? I'm still curious about the actual DPS loss from falloff, but I suppose that can be discovered somehow else. You've clearly solved the main point of HMG damage or inaccuracy out the edge of its optimal range. (As in, there is none...) ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1153	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:18:00 - [12] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: I've read dozens of HMG threads and not one previously said that the problem was that HMG did not fire in a cone as the reticule suggested. Now we have proof of exactly what the problem is and CCP are looking into it. So props to them. Yep, massive props to Ghaz for proving it in a way that any belligerent idiot could understand. Whoever said "The Copernicus of DUST" is correct. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1153	Posted - 2013.11.14 16:57:00 - [13] - Quote George Moros wrote: This is just one I found with quick search. I remember at least a couple more. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=94513 That's science for you. Credit doesn't go to the guy who actually discovers something, but to the person who makes it widely known. I'll be sure to mention Master in the same breath as Ghaz any time this comes up in the future. His thread confirms we've been dealing with this for quite a while... I think the date of his post is evidence that a change possibly occurred with the range mechanic updates in Uprising 1.2. That is, assuming it hasn't always been this way. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1161	Posted - 2013.11.14 22:05:00 - [14] - Quote Audacious Mandate wrote: Not having had the opportunity in combat to test the range vs percentage of reticle filled by opponent (I'm usually busy trying not to die to ARs); I bow to your test results sir. Incidentally, at what range does the reticle become larger than the target? For reference, in the first example of Ghaz's video, his target was standing at 23m. Before pulling the trigger, I'd estimate his target filled 20-30% of the aiming reticule. After a second of firing, he filled the majority of it. (my guestimation: 65-80%). Seems about right to me for how I think it should work, if damage were to actually be linked to how much the target fills the reticule. I'd maybe make it a little tighter so a target filled 75% at 30m. I'd go for anything at all over the current mechanics in game, though... ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1166	Posted - 2013.11.15 16:47:00 - [15] - Quote Dexter307 wrote: Guessing you don't use the HMG then :p HMG is only a laser if you stand still, adding spread would just nerf the HMG even more, and I'm tired of the dumb ideas people give for the HMG. You have nothing whatsoever to support your point. Even though there is video evidence sitting in the first post of this thread against it, your argument is: "Nuh uh." It's not convincing. In the first 10 seconds of Ghaz's video he's moving and shooting the gun, and the HMG is working exactly as he describes in his tests. The proof against your point is right there already. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1167	Posted - 2013.11.15 18:51:00 - [16] - Quote HowDidThatTaste wrote: Dexter307 wrote: I tested it moving forward and backwards so the small dot never touched the enemy but I still killed him Well even a camera video would help us determine what you are seeing cause I just tried it too, and there is the tiniest of spread that bounces a bit but not to the size of the reticle as it was in chromosome and before. I'll have to give a shot and post results, too. Just as a note guys: Whether Dexter is right or wrong, the people who first pointed out that the HMG was too accurate before Ghaz posted his video got a similar treatment of "OMG STFU Noob, you have no idea what you're doing." I don't believe Dexter, but I figure it may as well be worth testing instead of flaming away. Taste's got the right idea. Other than that: Taste, I think you may be correct about when the mechanics were changed as well. I didn't want to trust my memory, since Ghaz's video confirmed what I believed was wrong, but I swear it worked different at some point in Dust's history as well. Maybe Uprising 1.0 was the moment when it happened. Because I swear it was different in Chromosome... ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1174	Posted - 2013.11.17 15:57:00 - [17] - Quote LT SHANKS wrote: Thinking about it now, he had be one hell of a good shot to attain a score like that with such a gimped weapon. i haz noe gun game..... With the way it's working now, players with truly amazing aim probably have no problem with it. I talk to nixnova about the problems with the HMG when I squad with him on occasion. He agrees to an extend, then goes on to post 40-2 rounds with his Boundless. I guess if you're able to keep a laser pointer aimed at a crack-addicted fly already, there's no issue. It's just not how I think the gun should work. Oh well. Guess I need to GET GUD... ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1266	Posted - 2013.12.16 14:03:00 - [18] - Quote jamstar saa187 wrote: cant do it myself as i'm nowhere near as tech savvy, and i dont know how to do the video capture stuff. I can't supply video proof, but from personal gameplay I can confirm the center dot still has to be on target to do damage. (Been getting a lot of practice in with the Republic Boundless HMG.) CCP has not done anything to the HMG except make it harder to see where you're aiming at mid-range. So...stealth nerf. Free disposable LAV was a stealth buff though, so I'd say 1.7 has been HMG neutral. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 200/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1266	Posted - 2013.12.16 15:05:00 - [19] - Quote LT SHANKS wrote: Wouldn't it be great if HMGs had a 10% damage buff, an increase in range comparable to the max Sharpshooter skill of Chrome, and a working cone of dispersion?.. I just want Heavies to be feared again, even if slight. We're nothing more than slow moving target practice now. On another note, Scouts need love too. You seem to subscribe to the standard CCP school of balancing, which is: "Hey, this thing is underperforming a bit and needs a slight buff. So let's increase the damage, range, and change the mechanics around completely!" ... I really thing that's the wrong way to do it. Pick one, tweak, adjust in a few weeks if it isn't working right. Otherwise we set ourselves up for another round of nerfing, which is the route tanks are on right now. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 200/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1283	Posted - 2013.12.17 14:21:00 - [20] - Quote jamstar saa187 wrote: Something's coming HMG users....... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=129785&find=unread "We will be deploying the following changes: * Reduced fuel injector module bonus by 5% and lowered HAV top speed slightly. * Improved HMG effectiveness at short/medium range. * Added hybrid tag to Rail Rifle so that the correct role bonuses apply. * Multiple improvements to the matchmaking system. * Orbital Strike Exploit: Fixed edge case where players were able to request 2 orbitals for the price of one. * Fixed aggressive friendly fire damage tracking. * Battleserver stability fixes. let's hope this is the fix we've been waiting for. Rejoice! \o/ ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 200/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù

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