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XxGhazbaranxX
The New Age Outlaws
WINMATAR.
546
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Posted - 2013.11.13 05:01:00 -
[31] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:Yea I kinda thought this was common knowledge, at least among HMG users. But I won't complain about having video evidence. Although I recall that among every single thread that has brought this problem up, there's been literally zero blue tags in response, which kinda worries me.
The Thing is that it is common knowledge. What I just demonstrated was that the spread doesn't matter. That big big circle is a lie. Just like the cake
BTW crouching and aiming down sights does nothing more than stabilize the turret. The reduction in spread is basically cosmetic. The same results are gained crouching or not but when your are not crouching the HMG wants to go everywhere
Plasma Cannon Advocate
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XxGhazbaranxX
The New Age Outlaws
WINMATAR.
546
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Posted - 2013.11.13 05:04:00 -
[32] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:XxGhazbaranxX wrote:
I don't think the HMG user has to need to be a pin point shooter. Not even AR's have to be pin point. Thats the whole deal, the HMG is not functioning as a weapon that inherently has spread. It's functioning as a weapon that has no spread. If I have My opponent in my circle I expect to be dealing at least some damage but this does not hold up.
Well sir, you have inspired me. Off to do some testing. If this is all correct, and lost DPS at range is actually lost to kick taking the center dot off target, an Assault HMG should be able to top a similar tier Assault Rifle at all ranges provided your aim is true. (The AHMG actually has a superior range profile and DPS.) I'm going to leave my pre-conceived prejudices at the door and give it the good ol' college try.
remember that drop off in damage is due to actual game mechanics . When you get farther from the damage is reduced no by a percentage.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
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Disturbingly Bored
The Strontium Asylum
1145
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Posted - 2013.11.13 05:10:00 -
[33] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:I'm going to leave my pre-conceived prejudices at the door and give it the good ol' college try.
Well, I just went out and made an attempt at using the MO-4 against some decent AR players at range.
I'd say the OP's general description is correct... it felt more like using the Laser Rifle than anything else. But even at 35m, my Proficiency 5 MO-4 Assault HMG didn't feel any more powerful than my no-SP Templar Scrambler Rifle.
It might have something to do with the individual bullet damage being so low. You essentially have to keep a steady pin-point stream on target at range to kill it. The Assault HMG is, in effect, a weird-looking laser rifle.
Bursting my shots seemed to be of no detriment nor benefit. Kick wasn't an issue, but low bullet damage made bursting pointless.
I'm now thinking the HMG's poor performance at range simply has to do with the Heavy's inability to juke properly. My targets were jumping and two-stepping all over the screen, and even when I attempted to do the same in a ranged fight, I was too big and too easy a target.
Needs more testing. In the mean time, AR HEAVIES: Please give the Assault HMG a shot, use it the same as you do an AR or laser rifle, and post your results. This should be interesting.
¶Gêƒ__ Gò«
Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP)
¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
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I-Shayz-I
I-----I
1356
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Posted - 2013.11.13 05:22:00 -
[34] - Quote
Does anyone know IWS's info? This is something that the CPM should at least have their mind on with the whole TTK issue being dealt with right now
Links:
List of Important Topics
I make logistics videos!
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XxGhazbaranxX
The New Age Outlaws
WINMATAR.
549
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Posted - 2013.11.13 05:27:00 -
[35] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Does anyone know IWS's info? This is something that the CPM should at least have their mind on with the whole TTK issue being dealt with right now
TTK in 1.6 is terrible. I hate having my 1.5k hp suit drop in an instant to a Duvolle
Plasma Cannon Advocate
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HowDidThatTaste
Ancient Exiles.
3965
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Posted - 2013.11.13 05:35:00 -
[36] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:Does anyone know IWS's info? This is something that the CPM should at least have their mind on with the whole TTK issue being dealt with right now TTK in 1.6 is terrible. I hate having my 1.5k hp suit drop in an instant to a Duvolle
Add that to the fact we are trying to shoot fast jumping suits that out range us by triple with aim assist, with a pinpoint weapon that takes the most aim and has no aim assist. It just becomes laughable at this point.
But you know we can always squat and aim down sights. Trolollol. |
Pent'noir
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
183
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Posted - 2013.11.13 05:45:00 -
[37] - Quote
Nice! Great job in pointing out the bug. Maybe now that I know what is going on, I can use a hmg without getting too frustrated. |
Disturbingly Bored
The Strontium Asylum
1145
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Posted - 2013.11.13 05:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
I don't know if it's actually a bug. It may have always been this way. We just lolled at the description that read "pin-point accurate stream of gunfire." Turns out it's true.
Psychology and subjectivity trolled us...
¶Gêƒ__ Gò«
Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP)
¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
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XxGhazbaranxX
The New Age Outlaws
WINMATAR.
554
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Posted - 2013.11.13 05:56:00 -
[39] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:I don't know if it's actually a bug. It may have always been this way. We just lolled at the description that read "pin-point accurate stream of gunfire." Turns out it's true.
Psychology and subjectivity trolled us...
Yes It does have that description but it's sort of not good on a weapon that shoots bullets that do mas 19 damage with an in your face optimal that people can just bunny hop and strafe
ON a more serious not, the scramble pistol also has pin point thrown in there but it's kick make it not so pin point most of the time
Plasma Cannon Advocate
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Mac Dac
Wraith Shadow Guards
269
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Posted - 2013.11.13 07:06:00 -
[40] - Quote
I figured that the HMG was too accurate... you can see it if you pay close attention.
"We should take care not to make intellect our god; it has, of course, strong muscles, but no personality" Albert Einste
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Cyrius Li-Moody
The New Age Outlaws
WINMATAR.
1683
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Posted - 2013.11.13 07:15:00 -
[41] - Quote
Anything in the name of science, fat bros.
Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
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Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
473
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Posted - 2013.11.13 07:45:00 -
[42] - Quote
Well, this is interesting.
Learn 2 aim heavies.
Joke aside, the HMG sight is tooooo big if this is how it is supposed to be. An regular "AR"-cross would do just fine.
+¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13.
CCP please make our decisions matter.
"AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
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daishi mk03
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
325
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Posted - 2013.11.13 08:00:00 -
[43] - Quote
How fking hard can it be to design weapons? Seriously.
1) Take a pencil
2) write down combat ranges
3) define weapons for those ranges
4) design weapons to dominate at "their" range
HMG should have a spread area as wide as 2 dropsuits at 20m range and destroy anything inside. |
Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
473
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Posted - 2013.11.13 08:07:00 -
[44] - Quote
daishi mk03 wrote:How fking hard can it be to design weapons? Seriously.
1) Take a pencil
2) write down combat ranges
3) define weapons for those ranges
4) design weapons to dominate at "their" range
HMG should have a spread area as wide as 2 dropsuits at 20m range and destroy anything inside.
Yes, either a huuuuuuuuge spread or increased range. Right now it has pinpoint accuracy and crap range => crap weapon.
Minmatar weapons are however short range uber dmg weapons, so I think the spread should increase to make this weapon feared again.
Looked at jolly rogers video from chromosome the other day. Look at the HMG spread in that vid, it is working there (see 4:55 for example):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd0tAoagjDE
If they fix this, I might go heavy.
+¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13.
CCP please make our decisions matter.
"AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
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daishi mk03
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
325
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Posted - 2013.11.13 08:11:00 -
[45] - Quote
Yeah, that video shows it perfectly.
Just make the HMG destroy everything inside it's big circle at close range -> good.
Balanced Imbalance. |
Assert Dominance
Ahrendee's Wafflehouse
456
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Posted - 2013.11.13 08:22:00 -
[46] - Quote
Thats it! heavies cant aim! Who wouldve known -_- on the other hand my shotgun can be point blank and still not function properly... Your weapon does, i dont wanna hear it... Although i agree a hmg's spread should be much larger. The smg functions like a hmg more than the hmg. But my hate for heavies in chromosome when i first started in standard gear is keeping me from sympathizing.
I eat blue waffles when i proto stomp.
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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
RISE of LEGION
103
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Posted - 2013.11.13 09:08:00 -
[47] - Quote
What a fabulous video.
Never used the HMG before, but this certainly would help if I did.
Thanks for taking the time & sharing...>Leadfoot |
XxGhazbaranxX
The New Age Outlaws
WINMATAR.
564
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Posted - 2013.11.13 09:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
Assert Dominance wrote:Thats it! heavies cant aim! Who wouldve known -_- on the other hand my shotgun can be point blank and still not function properly... Your weapon does, i dont wanna hear it... Although i agree a hmg's spread should be much larger. The smg functions like a hmg more than the hmg. But my hate for heavies in chromosome when i first started in standard gear is keeping me from sympathizing.
heavies are not what they used to be. I'm pretty sure CCP will bring them back slowly like they did The mass driver after the nerf and the laser rifle after it was nerfed. Bide our time I guess... Good thing I still have my plasma cannon to fall back on...
I'm a full logi but decided that heavy would be the next logical step. I can't logi If I don't know what the other side of the fence looks like. Anyways I got my HMG to profi 3 and adv sentinel sit. Saving up for proto sentinel.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
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castba
Penguin's March
196
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Posted - 2013.11.13 09:45:00 -
[49] - Quote
Right, so the hmg issue is how the system registers and calculates damage.
Could it be set this way because it would be too taxing to calculate each individual round with the speed they are fired? Also interested if the burst has been tested? Nobody seems to mention the burst when discussing hmg issues. |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French
2116
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Posted - 2013.11.13 09:58:00 -
[50] - Quote
Loved the video !
And indeed, i think an HMG should have a way wider spread of bullets before the stream gets narrow over time when constant firing.
Tweaking this the right way would also allow for a slight buff to range as the balance there would be the need for the HMG to actually reach the near overheating really narrow stream to be really efficient over longer range.
This Char i only use on the forum.
To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype.
Et vive la France !
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XxGhazbaranxX
The New Age Outlaws
WINMATAR.
566
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Posted - 2013.11.13 10:03:00 -
[51] - Quote
castba wrote:Right, so the hmg issue is how the system registers and calculates damage.
Could it be set this way because it would be too taxing to calculate each individual round with the speed they are fired? Also interested if the burst has been tested? Nobody seems to mention the burst when discussing hmg issues.
The Burst HMG is actually my favorite but also a bit more situational. With the burst I can pulse when I'm dead center and wait when I'm not and deal possibly even more damage because of it. The only drawback Is that the heat buildup is too quick and I only get about 4 bursts before overheat.
Count the bunny hops and calculate for damage loss and the enemy is still not dead by overheat time unless they have a period when they are still.
I can make a video of it if you guys like, I'll put it into my to do list. I have to find a way to get passed 1.6 with my sanity in tact.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
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Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
473
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Posted - 2013.11.13 10:05:00 -
[52] - Quote
It feels like the weapon spread is not a bell curve, more like a ON/OFF thing, or the standard deviation of the bell curve is too small.
I wonder what unit the weapon accuracy parameter in this game is in? Pixels?
Has this parameter changed recently for the HMG?
If someone knows, I could generate some graphs of 2 dimensional distributions to try this theory out.
EDIT: Maybe CCP placed the decimal point wrong in the code or something (or forgot a zero)? :)
It could actually be that the spread is 1/10 too small?
+¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13.
CCP please make our decisions matter.
"AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
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XxGhazbaranxX
The New Age Outlaws
WINMATAR.
566
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Posted - 2013.11.13 10:09:00 -
[53] - Quote
@Spectral Clone
The last line of your signature is awesome.It's like naming all the patches of dust so far. What would you call 1.6?
Plasma Cannon Advocate
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
Top Men.
275
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Posted - 2013.11.13 10:13:00 -
[54] - Quote
I'm curious, does the shotgun have a similar problem? Meaning...does the actual reticule reflect where all the pellets are going or is it much more concentrated than it lets on?
Also when AA kicks in (for any weapon that has AA) does it bring you to the center of the reticule, or merely to a part of it? |
Kovinis Sparagas
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
84
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Posted - 2013.11.13 10:17:00 -
[55] - Quote
How did you did that test???!!
how can a friend go to enemy side?
I want to test more, but CCP mechanics doesn't allow me to do it
best kill streak
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Rogue Saint
Science For Death
The Shadow Eclipse
377
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Posted - 2013.11.13 10:21:00 -
[56] - Quote
I'd like to see this same test with the shotgun. If the target reticule isn't red then nothing or very little will hit the target.
GôêGÆ+GÆ+GƦ
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Laurent Cazaderon
What The French
2118
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Posted - 2013.11.13 10:30:00 -
[57] - Quote
Kovinis Sparagas wrote:How did you did that test???!!
how can a friend go to enemy side?
I want to test more, but CCP mechanics doesn't allow me to do it
probably a friendly PC game. or a FW games with mostly friends on both sides
This Char i only use on the forum.
To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype.
Et vive la France !
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Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
474
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Posted - 2013.11.13 10:32:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ok, I did a reference simulation just to show what a factor 10 and factor 100 wrong in the spread parameter for a gaussian distribution will look like. See links below
Reference measurement (spread equals radius): Radius = 1, standard deviation = 1
http://i.imgur.com/1gPt4QN.jpg
Factor 10 smaller standard deviation (spread): Radius = 1, standard deviation = 1/10
http://i.imgur.com/F3RRsLu.jpg
Factor 100 smaller standard deviation (spread): Radius = 1, standard deviation = 1/100
http://i.imgur.com/kXGprmx.jpg
Graphs and statistics FTW.
+¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13.
"Core Locus 514. AR 514. Bricktank 514. COD 514."
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XxGhazbaranxX
The New Age Outlaws
WINMATAR.
567
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Posted - 2013.11.13 10:34:00 -
[59] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Kovinis Sparagas wrote:How did you did that test???!!
how can a friend go to enemy side?
I want to test more, but CCP mechanics doesn't allow me to do it probably a friendly PC game. or a FW games with mostly friends on both sides
Oceania battle server at low traffic time. Synced a Dom and if we where on the same side I would leave and try again till I was in the opposing side.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
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Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
474
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Posted - 2013.11.13 10:34:00 -
[60] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:@Spectral Clone
The last line of your signature is awesome.It's like naming all the patches of dust so far. What would you call 1.6?
COD 514.
Will add it.
+¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13.
"Core Locus 514. AR 514. Bricktank 514. COD 514."
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