When there is an AV outside of your render range what commands do you give to the rest of your squad? Start there... this is a team sport.. sport.

I've still never seen anyone come up with a reasonable answer to this.

I just have a quick question here about the whole tank vs AV debate, and let me preface it by saying that I would love for it to be balanced completely. I have also never messed with driving a tank and have my swarm skill up to level 3. My perspective for this is coming from playing pub matches as well, so don't apply it to PC since that is quite different.

In my experience, running around with adv swarms with two adv damage mods is still relatively useless against most tanks that I would come across on the battlefield. They either just don't care that I'm there or they scurry away and I can't do anything about it. Again I have not used tanks and perhaps it does take an immense amount of skill to drive a tank at high speeds back into the hills. I rarely even pull out my swarms since they are so ineffective at destroying tanks, the best that I can usually hope for is just to bother the tanker enough that he just runs away and recalls out of fear that he MIGHT lose his tank.

The problems in my experience from an infantry perspective are as follows:
-Tanks are just too fast to be able to destroy. I can get their health down but they can always get away before I can kill them.
-Tanks are too expensive for what they provide. Tank drivers are too worried about losing their precious tanks and therefore behave quite cautiously/selfishly rather than helping their team. On the flip side using price as an argument is pretty ridiculous as well since just because a proto AV fit only costs 200k they are still a lot more likely to get killed trying to kill a tank since they are giving up their anti-personnel capabilities. Despite all of the whining, AV isn't necessarily a bargain compared to tanking.
-Recalling a vehicle is a ridiculous mechanic. I don't think that it should be removed completely, but it should be a much more high risk proposition than it currently is. It should involve and RDV coming down to slowly pick it up or something. As it is now every time a tank gets low they just hurry away and recall and don't have to worry about a thing (other than random teammates sitting in a turret and not getting out).
-If tankers get their way and say that it should require an army to take them down, then AV weapons should be equally effective against infantry. It's not fair to make yourself completely vulnerable to infantry in an effort to take down a tank if you still don't have a chance at killing it alone.
-Once you get more than one tank in a match it is pretty much unbearable to play against as they can't really be stopped without coordination, which you aren't going to get in a pub match.
-Rail sniping is a joke. There is no way to destroy a rail tank in the redline before they just reverse down the hill and out of sight. Again I haven't tried it, but I guess it's just a way for people that aren't good enough to play as infantry or a real tanker to still get some WP.

Should be team work on both sides of the equation.

Teamwork to kill a tank.

Teamwork to make a tank effective.

No team = Useless tank

Wonder what would happen if you gave infantry the anti-missile flare launcher and the bubble shield strong enough to deflect forge gun shots, smoke rounds, infantry having the only ability to resupply vehicles, and rebooting their repair systems?

No team the tank becomes an expensive gun on wheels.

However the tank must become far more capable of supporting its host as well. Extra transport spots, deployable bunker walls, sensors, structure removal like blowing up a gate or taking out heavily armored turrets that are self repairing.

Since when were vehicles ment to be a 'bread and butter' class ... in my opinion Vehicles should be an endgame specialisation (hence the high costs both SP and ISK) skilled for after you've mastered (or at least got to a good level in) your chosen FPS class.

It's not AVs fault people have decided to skip to the endgame without the income to support it.

I've pretty much stepped out of this vehicles/AV debate for a while, since changes are coming and we don't know the half of them yet, but this just occered to me so I thought I'd share it.

I just have a quick question here about the whole tank vs AV debate, and let me preface it by saying that I would love for it to be balanced completely. I have also never messed with driving a tank and have my swarm skill up to level 3. My perspective for this is coming from playing pub matches as well, so don't apply it to PC since that is quite different.

In my experience, running around with adv swarms with two adv damage mods is still relatively useless against most tanks that I would come across on the battlefield. They either just don't care that I'm there or they scurry away and I can't do anything about it. Again I have not used tanks and perhaps it does take an immense amount of skill to drive a tank at high speeds back into the hills. I rarely even pull out my swarms since they are so ineffective at destroying tanks, the best that I can usually hope for is just to bother the tanker enough that he just runs away and recalls out of fear that he MIGHT lose his tank.

The problems in my experience from an infantry perspective are as follows:
-Tanks are just too fast to be able to destroy. I can get their health down but they can always get away before I can kill them.
-Tanks are too expensive for what they provide. Tank drivers are too worried about losing their precious tanks and therefore behave quite cautiously/selfishly rather than helping their team. On the flip side using price as an argument is pretty ridiculous as well since just because a proto AV fit only costs 200k they are still a lot more likely to get killed trying to kill a tank since they are giving up their anti-personnel capabilities. Despite all of the whining, AV isn't necessarily a bargain compared to tanking.
-Recalling a vehicle is a ridiculous mechanic. I don't think that it should be removed completely, but it should be a much more high risk proposition than it currently is. It should involve and RDV coming down to slowly pick it up or something. As it is now every time a tank gets low they just hurry away and recall and don't have to worry about a thing (other than random teammates sitting in a turret and not getting out).
-If tankers get their way and say that it should require an army to take them down, then AV weapons should be equally effective against infantry. It's not fair to make yourself completely vulnerable to infantry in an effort to take down a tank if you still don't have a chance at killing it alone.
-Once you get more than one tank in a match it is pretty much unbearable to play against as they can't really be stopped without coordination, which you aren't going to get in a pub match.
-Rail sniping is a joke. There is no way to destroy a rail tank in the redline before they just reverse down the hill and out of sight. Again I haven't tried it, but I guess it's just a way for people that aren't good enough to play as infantry or a real tanker to still get some WP.

Should be team work on both sides of the equation.

Teamwork to kill a tank.

Teamwork to make a tank effective.

No team = Useless tank

Wonder what would happen if you gave infantry the anti-missile flare launcher and the bubble shield strong enough to deflect forge gun shots, smoke rounds, infantry having the only ability to resupply vehicles, and rebooting their repair systems?

No team the tank becomes an expensive gun on wheels.

However the tank must become far more capable of supporting its host as well. Extra transport spots, deployable bunker walls, sensors, structure removal like blowing up a gate or taking out heavily armored turrets that are self repairing.

Long range artillery tank? Have spotters and guide the shots in.
Pesky aircraft? Have laser designators to guide missiles in.
Need to short range fire fight, have infantry help pump the coolant to the blasters to keep them from overheating and lowering their overheat seizing.

We need more interplay overall. A first start would be having passengers able to fire in a non turret seat. making non turret seats on specialist vehicles meaningful (logi turret) (ewar manager) Mine layers and EOD infantry. The list can go on and on.

Many loltankers say "We should be able to solo you and you shouldn't because we're just dumb"

Well lets name the most common example of AV (with swarms). You are mid range (because long range swarms are easily avoidable), the tank is firing at you and so are the enemy infantry. If you are really lucky then you are able to wail on the tank, and destroy it, which most times is not the case. We will be gunned down by infantry long before this happens.

Now lets name the perfect example (The ones people QQ about). The tank drives in a wide open field. Not paying attention, the Swarms wail on him to death with everything it's got, and the tanker QQs about being destroyed.

So CCP listens to thier BS reasons and balance AV around teamwork. So for arguments sake, lets say that it now takes 3 people (half a squad) to tank out a tank. The LOLTank squad now uses 5-6 tanks, and we all have to use teamwork to defeat them.

But it is "balanced" to force 3 people to take out ONE Tank.

That would mean 15-16 people on AV just to deal with them (WHICH IS ONE ENTIRE TEAM!). And what about the enemy infantry? You think that they are just gonna sit there and watch the fireworks? NO!! They will go after all the objectives while the tanks freely stomp everyone without good AV resistance.

Then you have the drug users who say MLT AV OHKO's thier "good" loltank. Well the only way to OHKO a "good" loltank would be to have Profecincy lvl 4 or 5 and a complex damage mod.

These loltankers want tanks to become god and have MCC level health and resistance. They know what would happen if we "balance" AV this way. Don't let them stomp us! AV users unite! Let your voice be heard and put this evil to rest.

And if CCP does listen to the tankers and tanks become the most OP thing in video game history, I'm gonna file a help ticket and Demand 1B ISK and 1M AUR, as well as a store front picture on the market of me saying I TOLD YOU SO!

Well said.

Ive heard enough quality tankers complain about tanks for long enough I just want you fools buffed, honestly, so you will shut up about it lol.

There are tankers out there who dont complain and do well, then there are the rest of you. Somethings gotta be working for them, and the only answer I can come up with is strategy, tactics, teamwork. I'm sure you all shared notes with the "best" tankers that it doesnt come down to a fitting problem... you are just getting outplayed.

Buff tanks so we can move onto the next QQ topic please! Thanks (also buff derpships.. leading them is fun with my forge it would be awesome if it took more than 1 shot).. thanks againl.

the only effective way to kill a redline tank that i've found so far is a well timed orbital combined with AV and/or an ADS swooping don on the thing either just before/after the strike or during the strike itself. which means that if the tank is under the MCC it isn't dying, period.

Exactly!

Many loltankers say "We should be able to solo you and you shouldn't because we're just dumb"

Sure but are you saying the a tanker my risk his ISK on the luck of his team being intelligent enough to know when to activate internal tank functions? If so I'm giving up right now. Sounds cool but impractical.

Sure but are you saying the a tanker my risk his ISK on the luck of his team being intelligent enough to know when to activate internal tank functions? If so I'm giving up right now. Sounds cool but impractical.

Infantry have to risk their wallet rely on a scout reliably deploying a drop uplink in a safe spot. Infantry have to rely on their squad mates scans are good coverage to prevent getting flanked. Infantry have to rely on their logi-bros to keep them in the game. Infantry have to rely on their team mates not dying in stupid hard to reach areas to revive them. Infantry have to rely on their teammates from not dropping a bad orbital on their heads and cost wise, have the highest cost potential over even the most expensive HAVs. Case in point officer weapons. Kill a guy with balac's and you could have set him back 20-30-40? matches? They don't drop often anymore.

I do plenty fine with my infantry builds without relying on ANY teammates, not in any coordinated fashion anyways. Infantry are just fine by themselves, and if they want to bring officer gear to a pub that's their own damn fault if they lose it.

Officer gear =/= vehicles

isk wise? you're right officer gear about 20-40x more in cost.

I mean what you just said is like trying to compare a megathron to a daredevil.

hang on... let me just... there we go brain is successfully unplugged. I think I might be on your level now...

so, AV call it 50k suit should be able to solo a 1m tank.

"tanks shouldn't be balanced around price!"

right, so a tank should cost as much as a dropsuit?

"long range swarms are easy to avoid"

and they are also invisible, didn't know swarms had cloaking devices did you?

EDIT: bolding for better visibility... maybe we should bold swarms.

1. No downside with AV NADES The only defense I have is a SMG with a 15m optimal range. Any AR user can kill me, no

because LOLav force us to redline snipe

Never had a problem with invisible swarms in my Madrugar

Then again, I guess we are both probably ignorant of the glitches that the other side faces while in combat.

Well I'm just trying to wrap my head around your original comment then, maybe I just misread it.

I thought who you were responding to whoever was saying how we would have to rely on infantry to keep us alive by using Anti AV gear to help us out, which would indicate that tanks are still **** all easy to kill, but you now have to pray your blues are on point (in squad or not). My response was more or less saying that infantry don't have to rely on other infantry to nearly such an extent, especially when ISK is factored in. People who are good don't die a whole lot, and tend to rely more on themselves than others. Tanks right now are laughably easy to kill in most situations (speaking as a proto AV user and someone with a reasonable amount of SP in tanks already)

As it stands a tanker has to be 100% on point the entire game, in comms, calling out enemies and watching for any and all AV, watching for remote explosives as they book it around the field, watching out for terrain because stopping = death, which can be hard to do when driving backwards full speed trying to shoot that AV guy as you try to duck around a corner. Your cooldowns have to be hit at the perfect time, and you better pray your modules don't glitch. This all comes with a massive ISK tag to it.

Proto AV just feels entirely too strong, from both ends of the spectrum.

what protoav do you use?

DUST is trying to combine the 2 into balanced gameplay for everyone, that means HAVs that can't sit t

what protoav do you use?