DUST Search - Why Making Good AV Require Teamwork is A Bad Idea

Iron Wolf Saber wrote:

DUST Fiend wrote:

Iron Wolf Saber wrote:

Infantry have to risk their wallet rely on a scout reliably deploying a drop uplink in a safe spot. Infantry have to rely on their squad mates scans are good coverage to prevent getting flanked. Infantry have to rely on their logi-bros to keep them in the game. Infantry have to rely on their team mates not dying in stupid hard to reach areas to revive them. Infantry have to rely on their teammates from not dropping a bad orbital on their heads and cost wise, have the highest cost potential over even the most expensive HAVs. Case in point officer weapons. Kill a guy with balac's and you could have set him back 20-30-40? matches? They don't drop often anymore.

I do plenty fine with my infantry builds without relying on ANY teammates, not in any coordinated fashion anyways. Infantry are just fine by themselves, and if they want to bring officer gear to a pub that's their own damn fault if they lose it.

Officer gear =/= vehicles

isk wise? you're right officer gear about 20-40x more in cost.

I mean what you just said is like trying to compare a megathron to a daredevil.


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DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7093	Posted - 2013.10.21 18:40:00 - [1] - Quote AV is supposed to be buffer damage to assist your allied armor in taking out enemy tanks. Sorry that you want to camp on a tower spamming the right trigger thinking you're good.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7098	Posted - 2013.10.21 19:52:00 - [2] - Quote It brings me a small level of comfort knowing that the best tankers STILL deal with this idiotic ** that has completely shut me out of tanking till the respec. I float at around 100,000 ISK most days because I try to make tanks work without max skills (close, but not maxed yet). I've had people donate 5-10 million ISK to me, only to watch it evaporate in a day or two as I try and make this work. It's exactly the same as my experience with Dropships when Uprising launched. (don't get me wrong, a good number of my deaths are certainly my fault, though more than half are from imbalance and glitchy mechanics) If you aren't already maxed out in vehicles, there isn't much point in calling anything other than an LLAV in, and that's just assuming you want to troll around, maybe chase a tank if you're lucky. It's infuriating and discouraging knowing that I wouldn't have any ISK problems if I'd just proto stomp in my infantry gear, but it's so *** boring. I need this respec. Every point is going into vehicles, and if vehicles aren't properly balanced at that time, I will quit for a few months and just sit on my vehicle skills till they're worth a ***** damn.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7100	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:05:00 - [3] - Quote Atiim wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: AV is supposed to be buffer damage to assist your allied armor in taking out enemy tanks. Sorry that you want to camp on a tower spamming the right trigger thinking you're good. Reading comprehension: 0 You did read the part where I said that long ranges with swarms are not good for effectively using AV right? AV is supposed to be used for ANTI--VEHICLE. Where does the description does it say that it's main purpose is to help allied tanks? CCP wants Vehicles to kill vehicles. This means that AV is a suppression tactic. Run solo, you will be suppressing. If you want to kill vehicles with AV, you'll need to coordinate. Tankers actually use far more skill than AV will ever have to. I'd say pilots too, but they die too quick for their skill to be relevant. As someone who owns prototype AV and plenty of vehicles I can safely say that AV as is takes extremely little skill. If you work as a squad, it basically requires no skill.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7101	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:14:00 - [4] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: CCP wants Vehicles to kill vehicles. LOL CCP doesn't know what they want half the time ... how you can claim to know just makes me laugh ! I know it's been said that they want vehicle vs vehicle combat, I'm not in the mood to go hunting though. Just saying that AV is too strong and only very delusional players think otherwise. If people wanted balance they would want vehicles to be built around fighting vehicles, that way they don't ** infantry and infantry don't ** them, and everyone has a more even gaming experience. But no, people want to park on towers and feel like Zeus.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7101	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:23:00 - [5] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: CCP wants Vehicles to kill vehicles. LOL CCP doesn't know what they want half the time ... how you can claim to know just makes me laugh ! I know it's been said that they want vehicle vs vehicle combat, I'm not in the mood to go hunting though. Just saying that AV is too strong and only very delusional players think otherwise. If people wanted balance they would want vehicles to be built around fighting vehicles, that way they don't ** infantry and infantry don't ** them, and everyone has a more even gaming experience. But no, people want to park on towers and feel like Zeus. DUST is trying to combine the 2 into balanced gameplay for everyone, that means HAVs that can't sit there annihilating infantry, infantry that can't instakill vehicles, and AV that doesn't completely gimp infantry against infantry. Not an easy balance to achieve, but they're working on a new model for it ... wait and see how it works. That's exactly what I said..... DUST wants balance, but it does not have that. Even the best tankers in this game with the most SP dumped into them still have to jump through hoops to survive against slightly focused AV. I've never once blown up a vehicle with my Proto AV and thought to myself, "wow, that was an accomplishment." No, it's "hey, you took me an extra minute to get these WP, you bastard. Call that tank in again, I dare you" If you have vehicles designed to fight vehicles they will still be able to fight infantry, but won't be able to slaughter them with impunity, and AV will be balanced around this dynamic as a form of support, not a one man wrecking crew.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7101	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:24:00 - [6] - Quote True Adamance wrote: That is pathetic, no true tanker would do that. Have some respect for your machine Atiim. I totally do that with my Ishukone How else are you supposed to kill those ***** things >_< I'd rather hop out to fight instead of hopping out to recall, that ** just feels like an exploit if you ask me
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7101	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:36:00 - [7] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: Please correct me If I am wrong, but I am seeing a majority of players who complain about AV hate swarms, and don't get me wrong they really are kind of a stupid weapon, but if this is the case then this discussion is going All wrong. If forge guns are deemed acceptable or at least not "game breaking" and AV mades are fine, then why don't we talk about only the crux of the issue. Swarms suck, they take no skill to deal a huge chunk of damage. Decrease damage rate and level of target tracking, increase clip size and ammo count. Is this not a solution? Both AV nades and Forge guns are also far too strong. Lai Dai = Die Ishukone = God Gun
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7105	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:49:00 - [8] - Quote ER-Bullitt wrote: Forge gunning from the tower is awesome, worth while, and gives me lots of kills, war points, isk, and helps my team win. What game are you playing? lol Makes fun of bad players Admits to using low skill high reward tactics
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7105	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:52:00 - [9] - Quote ER-Bullitt wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: ER-Bullitt wrote: Forge gunning from the tower is awesome, worth while, and gives me lots of kills, war points, isk, and helps my team win. What game are you playing? lol Makes fun of bad players Admits to using low skill high reward tactics Its ironic, isnt it! lol Dont hate the player, hate the game son. Trust me bro, I hate the game I'm one of those bad tankers who comes here to cry, AND I'm broke (wonder why) I don't see how it's possible to become a tanker if you aren't already maxed out. It's like the catch 22 class. I'd say the same for dropships but they're just worthless all around (except the very few extremely skilled or lucky ADS pilots, though their ships are being removed soon too) Oh, and this is just random and aimed at the thread in general: I think we can all agree that redline snipers of ALL kinds are annoying and frustrating at best.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7105	Posted - 2013.10.21 21:23:00 - [10] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Infantry have to risk their wallet rely on a scout reliably deploying a drop uplink in a safe spot. Infantry have to rely on their squad mates scans are good coverage to prevent getting flanked. Infantry have to rely on their logi-bros to keep them in the game. Infantry have to rely on their team mates not dying in stupid hard to reach areas to revive them. Infantry have to rely on their teammates from not dropping a bad orbital on their heads and cost wise, have the highest cost potential over even the most expensive HAVs. Case in point officer weapons. Kill a guy with balac's and you could have set him back 20-30-40? matches? They don't drop often anymore. I do plenty fine with my infantry builds without relying on ANY teammates, not in any coordinated fashion anyways. Infantry are just fine by themselves, and if they want to bring officer gear to a pub that's their own damn fault if they lose it. Officer gear =/= vehicles

DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7106	Posted - 2013.10.21 21:37:00 - [11] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Infantry have to risk their wallet rely on a scout reliably deploying a drop uplink in a safe spot. Infantry have to rely on their squad mates scans are good coverage to prevent getting flanked. Infantry have to rely on their logi-bros to keep them in the game. Infantry have to rely on their team mates not dying in stupid hard to reach areas to revive them. Infantry have to rely on their teammates from not dropping a bad orbital on their heads and cost wise, have the highest cost potential over even the most expensive HAVs. Case in point officer weapons. Kill a guy with balac's and you could have set him back 20-30-40? matches? They don't drop often anymore. I do plenty fine with my infantry builds without relying on ANY teammates, not in any coordinated fashion anyways. Infantry are just fine by themselves, and if they want to bring officer gear to a pub that's their own damn fault if they lose it. Officer gear =/= vehicles isk wise? you're right officer gear about 20-40x more in cost. I mean what you just said is like trying to compare a megathron to a daredevil. Well I'm just trying to wrap my head around your original comment then, maybe I just misread it. I thought who you were responding to was saying how we would have to rely on infantry to keep us alive by using Anti AV gear to help us out, which would indicate that tanks are still **** all easy to kill, but you now have to pray your blues are on point (in squad or not). My response was more or less saying that infantry don't have to rely on other infantry to nearly such an extent, especially when ISK is factored in. People who are good don't die a whole lot, and tend to rely more on themselves than others. Tanks right now are laughably easy to kill in most situations (speaking as a proto AV user and someone with a reasonable amount of SP in tanks already) As it stands a tanker has to be 100% on point the entire game, in comms, calling out enemies and watching for any and all AV, watching for remote explosives as they book it around the field, watching out for terrain because stopping = death, which can be hard to do when driving backwards full speed trying to shoot that AV guy as you try to duck around a corner. Your cooldowns have to be hit at the perfect time, and you better pray your modules don't glitch. This all comes with a massive ISK tag to it. Proto AV just feels entirely too strong, from both ends of the spectrum.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7110	Posted - 2013.10.21 22:01:00 - [12] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: what protoav do you use? Ishukone Assault Forge Gun, proficiency 3 right now I would also use Lai Dai AV nades but proto grenades are impossible to fit on a heavy without gimping the rest of your fit, or so I find. I could just be doing it wrong.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7110	Posted - 2013.10.21 22:06:00 - [13] - Quote Kane Fyea wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: what protoav do you use? Ishukone Assault Forge Gun, proficiency 3 right now I would also use Lai Dai AV nades but proto grenades are impossible to fit on a heavy without gimping the rest of your fit, or so I find. I could just be doing it wrong. Well I don't fit proto grenades because I like my advanced nanohives..... ::grumbles something about equipment, kicking the dirt::
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7127	Posted - 2013.10.22 02:07:00 - [14] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Want to talk nerfing I used to remember the days where my heavy suit could eat a railgun shell to the shoulder and live. I used to live for circling heavies with my shotgun