DUST Search - Why Making Good AV Require Teamwork is A Bad Idea

Atiim wrote:

Many loltankers say "We should be able to solo you and you shouldn't because we're just dumb"

Well lets name the most common example of AV (with swarms). You are mid range (because long range swarms are easily avoidable), the tank is firing at you and so are the enemy infantry. If you are really lucky then you are able to wail on the tank, and destroy it, which most times is not the case. We will be gunned down by infantry long before this happens.

Now lets name the perfect example (The ones people QQ about). The tank drives in a wide open field. Not paying attention, the Swarms wail on him to death with everything it's got, and the tanker QQs about being destroyed.

So CCP listens to thier BS reasons and balance AV around teamwork. So for arguments sake, lets say that it now takes 3 people (half a squad) to tank out a tank. The LOLTank squad now uses 5-6 tanks, and we all have to use teamwork to defeat them.

But it is "balanced" to force 3 people to take out ONE Tank.

That would mean 15-16 people on AV just to deal with them (WHICH IS ONE ENTIRE TEAM!). And what about the enemy infantry? You think that they are just gonna sit there and watch the fireworks? NO!! They will go after all the objectives while the tanks freely stomp everyone without good AV resistance.

Then you have the drug users who say MLT AV OHKO's thier "good" loltank. Well the only way to OHKO a "good" loltank would be to have Profecincy lvl 4 or 5 and a complex damage mod.

These loltankers want tanks to become god and have MCC level health and resistance. They know what would happen if we "balance" AV this way. Don't let them stomp us! AV users unite! Let your voice be heard and put this evil to rest.

And if CCP does listen to the tankers and tanks become the most OP thing in video game history, I'm gonna file a help ticket and Demand 1B ISK and 1M AUR, as well as a store front picture on the market of me saying I TOLD YOU SO!

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Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 260	Posted - 2013.10.21 18:35:00 - [1] - Quote Many loltankers say "We should be able to solo you and you shouldn't because we're just dumb" Well lets name the most common example of AV (with swarms). You are mid range (because long range swarms are easily avoidable), the tank is firing at you and so are the enemy infantry. If you are really lucky then you are able to wail on the tank, and destroy it, which most times is not the case. We will be gunned down by infantry long before this happens. Now lets name the perfect example (The ones people QQ about). The tank drives in a wide open field. Not paying attention, the Swarms wail on him to death with everything it's got, and the tanker QQs about being destroyed. So CCP listens to thier BS reasons and balance AV around teamwork. So for arguments sake, lets say that it now takes 3 people (half a squad) to tank out a tank. The LOLTank squad now uses 5-6 tanks, and we all have to use teamwork to defeat them. But it is "balanced" to force 3 people to take out ONE Tank. That would mean 15-16 people on AV just to deal with them (WHICH IS ONE ENTIRE TEAM!). And what about the enemy infantry? You think that they are just gonna sit there and watch the fireworks? NO!! They will go after all the objectives while the tanks freely stomp everyone without good AV resistance. Then you have the drug users who say MLT AV OHKO's thier "good" loltank. Well the only way to OHKO a "good" loltank would be to have Profecincy lvl 4 or 5 and a complex damage mod. These loltankers want tanks to become god and have MCC level health and resistance. They know what would happen if we "balance" AV this way. Don't let them stomp us! AV users unite! Let your voice be heard and put this evil to rest. And if CCP does listen to the tankers and tanks become the most OP thing in video game history, I'm gonna file a help ticket and Demand 1B ISK and 1M AUR, as well as a store front picture on the market of me saying I TOLD YOU SO!
Viktor Hadah Jr Negative-Impact Cult of War 590	Posted - 2013.10.21 18:38:00 - [2] - Quote Moar swarm buffs plz, tanks are OP
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 260	Posted - 2013.10.21 18:39:00 - [3] - Quote Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: Moar swarm buffs plz, tanks are OP I'm not saying tanks are OP. I'm saying that they would become OP
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7093	Posted - 2013.10.21 18:40:00 - [4] - Quote AV is supposed to be buffer damage to assist your allied armor in taking out enemy tanks. Sorry that you want to camp on a tower spamming the right trigger thinking you're good.
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 1195	Posted - 2013.10.21 18:44:00 - [5] - Quote Atiim wrote: Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: Moar swarm buffs plz, tanks are OP I'm not saying tanks are OP. I'm saying that they would become OP Noon do math. Tanks will either have barely have enough HP to survive one forge shot or enough to survive 10 if vehicle changes go as supposed. You're going to see bricks with glass cores. They will be solo-able if you ambush them when their gardeners turn off. Right now, deal with it. If tanks just become Sol able all the time, they need to cost less than 200k for a proto fit.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3438	Posted - 2013.10.21 18:45:00 - [6] - Quote Attim I was starting to like you.... then this.... Auto Locking double DPS weapons that are fire and forget do not deserve to be, nor should have the capability to solo HAV. We need to reach a point of balance where players actually want to deploy tanks to the map, this way we get the fights that we see in trailers..... However as you and many others would have it. AV dominates the map with no downsides nor need to leave the red line granting free 150 + 50 WP at regular intervals for doing nothing. Your 500K SP, and 300K ISK investment is denying dynamic gameplay and destroying 10+ Million SP, and destroying 1-2 Million SP vehicles with too much ease. Swarm Lock time needs an increase, fire rate needs to remain the same, with swarms not making 180- degree turns and able to be unlocked by terrain and such.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 3698	Posted - 2013.10.21 18:46:00 - [7] - Quote so you basically want the vehicles people pour millions of isk and sp into (far more than is required to max the av tree) to be weak and easily taken out by 1 guy? i'm sure people will flock in droves to drive tanks then, and totally won't go "** this **" and quit tanking, thus depriving you of your wp source, and thus as is the circle of life, the AV'er will starve and its population will decrease till tanking is once again viable. also as for your example, perhaps rather than having the entire team dealing with the tanks (wwhich is stupid and the berries deserve to die if this happens) you have 1 squad of 6 people (OMG sensible teamwork) who concentrate thier fire on 1 or 2 tanks, utterly annihilating them then targeting the next one, which given how powerful proto AV is and will probably continue to be won't take that long. also as for tanker demanding and i quote "MCC level health and resistance", i accuse you of wanting tanks nerfed into the ground so you don't have to work for your WP, two can play at this game. oh and before you accuse me of being a tanker who wants "MCC level and resistances", i'm a dropship pilot, there's more to the AV/Vehicle dynamic than tanks.
Xender17 MoIden Heath PoIice Department EoN. 817	Posted - 2013.10.21 18:50:00 - [8] - Quote Unless they make HAV fittings 4X cheaper its a bad idea for 1,000,000 dollar items to be taken out by one person.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3439	Posted - 2013.10.21 18:56:00 - [9] - Quote Atiim wrote: Now lets name the perfect example (The ones people QQ about). The tank drives in a wide open field. Not paying attention, the Swarms wail on him to death with everything it's got, and the tanker QQs about being destroyed. But it is "balanced" to force 3 people to take out ONE Tank. These loltankers want tanks to become god and have MCC level health and resistance. They know what would happen if we "balance" AV this way. Don't let them stomp us! AV users unite! Let your voice be heard and put this evil to rest. 1.) Tanks are not able to be useful in urban situations more often that not and you know this Attim, more tanks die by driving into the sockets than by moving around outside them. IF we cannot go into the sockets, and we cannot be in the open fields where then shall we go? Shall we just hit the old boosters and take to space as a ravenous space faring fleet of angry tank monsters, forcing the entirety of the EVE universe to band together to throw us back out of space? (Oh sarcasm....) 2.) Indeed it is. It took two men to operate a bazooka in the second world war, many times tanks can simply shrug off AV fire because it ricochets off their angular armour plates dealing no damage, I highly doubt Military teams allo their heavy weapons operators to work alone, un covered, and without help. I'm looking at you Char Char since I think you once told me you had the training to fire Stinger Missiles..... 3.) Loltankers are Loltankers because they are suffering under a terrible regime of AV overlords who have it so easy destroying tanks and dropships it makes me sick. I still AV, when I can, and my god how easy it is to stroll up to a tanker, throw 3 grenades and put in on the back foot. Hell we don't want HAV to be godly, we want it to be a viavle style of play, that I can run tanks indefinitely if I so wanted to as is my current specialisation.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 1898	Posted - 2013.10.21 19:10:00 - [10] - Quote in other words, you scared that youl actually have to put effort into your class and you don't want to need intelligence to kill us.

knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 455	Posted - 2013.10.21 19:34:00 - [11] - Quote hang on... let me just... there we go brain is successfully unplugged. I think I might be on your level now... so, AV call it 50k suit should be able to solo a 1m tank. "tanks shouldn't be balanced around price!" right, so a tank should cost as much as a dropsuit? "long range swarms are easy to avoid" and they are also invisible, didn't know swarms had cloaking devices did you?
Sgt Buttscratch R 0 N 1 N 919	Posted - 2013.10.21 19:35:00 - [12] - Quote OP, do infantry gun you down when your sat atop a high tower spamming dumb fire rounds across the map?
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7098	Posted - 2013.10.21 19:52:00 - [13] - Quote It brings me a small level of comfort knowing that the best tankers STILL deal with this idiotic ** that has completely shut me out of tanking till the respec. I float at around 100,000 ISK most days because I try to make tanks work without max skills (close, but not maxed yet). I've had people donate 5-10 million ISK to me, only to watch it evaporate in a day or two as I try and make this work. It's exactly the same as my experience with Dropships when Uprising launched. (don't get me wrong, a good number of my deaths are certainly my fault, though more than half are from imbalance and glitchy mechanics) If you aren't already maxed out in vehicles, there isn't much point in calling anything other than an LLAV in, and that's just assuming you want to troll around, maybe chase a tank if you're lucky. It's infuriating and discouraging knowing that I wouldn't have any ISK problems if I'd just proto stomp in my infantry gear, but it's so *** boring. I need this respec. Every point is going into vehicles, and if vehicles aren't properly balanced at that time, I will quit for a few months and just sit on my vehicle skills till they're worth a ***** damn.
sasha reaper Nyain Chan 0	Posted - 2013.10.21 19:53:00 - [14] - Quote Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: Moar swarm buffs plz, tanks are OP trollbait
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3446	Posted - 2013.10.21 19:55:00 - [15] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: It brings me a small level of comfort knowing that the best tankers STILL deal with this idiotic ** that has completely shut me out of tanking till the respec. I float at around 100,000 ISK most days because I try to make tanks work without max skills (close, but not maxed yet). I've had people donate 5-10 million ISK to me, only to watch it evaporate in a day or two as I try and make this work. It's exactly the same as my experience with Dropships when Uprising launched. (don't get me wrong, a good number of my deaths are certainly my fault, though more than half are from imbalance and glitchy mechanics) If you aren't already maxed out in vehicles, there isn't much point in calling anything other than an LLAV in, and that's just assuming you want to troll around, maybe chase a tank if you're lucky. It's infuriating and discouraging knowing that I wouldn't have any ISK problems if I'd just proto stomp in my infantry gear, but it's so *** boring. I need this respec. Every point is going into vehicles, and if vehicles aren't properly balanced at that time, I will quit for a few months and just sit on my vehicle skills till they're worth a ***** damn. That might have to be the course I take too. And when CCP come to understand that their tankers have all quit maybe they can wise up.
Kane Fyea DUST University Ivy League 2086	Posted - 2013.10.21 19:56:00 - [16] - Quote I like how people say that the swarms are fire and forget so they shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Well then give me a nice dumb fire AV weapon (Plasma Cannon is a joke. I would also be able to defend myself). I would like it better that way anyways (I hate swarms)
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 260	Posted - 2013.10.21 19:57:00 - [17] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: AV is supposed to be buffer damage to assist your allied armor in taking out enemy tanks. Sorry that you want to camp on a tower spamming the right trigger thinking you're good. Reading comprehension: 0 You did read the part where I said that long ranges with swarms are not good for effectively using AV right? AV is supposed to be used for ANTI--VEHICLE. Where does the description does it say that it's main purpose is to help allied tanks?
ER-Bullitt Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 480	Posted - 2013.10.21 19:59:00 - [18] - Quote Kane Fyea wrote: I like how people say that the swarms are fire and forget so they shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Well then give me a nice dumb fire AV weapon (Plasma Cannon is a joke. I would also be able to defend myself). I would like it better that way anyways (I hate swarms) I think what you are looking for is called a Forge Gun. Edit... this original post is bad. Let them buff tanks and dropships. Lets see how it goes.. FFS they have been relatively underpowered for a looong time. Give them something to look forward to and changes can be a good thing. Right now it is not a big challenge to take a tank out of the equation either by blowing it up or making it run for the hills.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3447	Posted - 2013.10.21 19:59:00 - [19] - Quote Kane Fyea wrote: I like how people say that the swarms are fire and forget so they shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Well then give me a nice dumb fire AV weapon (Plasma Cannon is a joke. I would also be able to defend myself). I would like it better that way anyways (I hate swarms) Minmatar RPG would be cool. Even I might use that.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3447	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:01:00 - [20] - Quote Atiim wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: AV is supposed to be buffer damage to assist your allied armor in taking out enemy tanks. Sorry that you want to camp on a tower spamming the right trigger thinking you're good. Reading comprehension: 0 You did read the part where I said that long ranges with swarms are not good for effectively using AV right? AV is supposed to be used for ANTI--VEHICLE. Where does the description does it say that it's main purpose is to help allied tanks? Your idea of balanced AV is rapid fire Forgeguns...oh wait we have those and they are still unbalanced? Where are the vehicle manoeuvring changes, future tanks handle like ****, where are the changed to turrets, ammo for increased effectiveness, where are the ADV and PTO level tanks?

Kane Fyea DUST University Ivy League 2086	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:02:00 - [21] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Attim I was starting to like you.... then this.... Auto Locking double DPS weapons that are fire and forget do not deserve to be, nor should have the capability to solo HAV. We need to reach a point of balance where players actually want to deploy tanks to the map, this way we get the fights that we see in trailers..... However as you and many others would have it. AV dominates the map with no downsides nor need to leave the red line granting free 150 + 50 WP at regular intervals for doing nothing. Your 500K SP, and 300K ISK investment is denying dynamic gameplay and destroying 10+ Million SP, and destroying 1-2 Million SP vehicles with too much ease. Swarm Lock time needs an increase, fire rate needs to remain the same, with swarms not making 180- degree turns and able to be unlocked by terrain and such. 1. No downside are you high. The only defense I have is a fking SMG with a 15m optimal range. Any AR user can kill me with little to no effort 2. 500k SP investment? You must be forgetting that to be effective at AV you first have to have at least advanced suits, complex damage mods, shield and/or armor modules so you don't die instantly, and have at least advanced swarms (Standard ones are shit 3. You guys can redline snipe why can't we redline AV?
Kane Fyea DUST University Ivy League 2086	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:04:00 - [22] - Quote ER-Bullitt wrote: Kane Fyea wrote: I like how people say that the swarms are fire and forget so they shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Well then give me a nice dumb fire AV weapon (Plasma Cannon is a joke. I would also be able to defend myself). I would like it better that way anyways (I hate swarms) I think what you are looking for is called a Forge Gun. Edit... this original post is bad. Let them buff tanks and dropships. Lets see how it goes.. FFS they have been relatively underpowered for a looong time. Give them something to look forward to and changes can be a good thing. Right now it is not a big challenge to take a tank out of the equation either by blowing it up or making it run for the hills. No. I want an RPG style AV weapon.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7100	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:05:00 - [23] - Quote Atiim wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: AV is supposed to be buffer damage to assist your allied armor in taking out enemy tanks. Sorry that you want to camp on a tower spamming the right trigger thinking you're good. Reading comprehension: 0 You did read the part where I said that long ranges with swarms are not good for effectively using AV right? AV is supposed to be used for ANTI--VEHICLE. Where does the description does it say that it's main purpose is to help allied tanks? CCP wants Vehicles to kill vehicles. This means that AV is a suppression tactic. Run solo, you will be suppressing. If you want to kill vehicles with AV, you'll need to coordinate. Tankers actually use far more skill than AV will ever have to. I'd say pilots too, but they die too quick for their skill to be relevant. As someone who owns prototype AV and plenty of vehicles I can safely say that AV as is takes extremely little skill. If you work as a squad, it basically requires no skill.
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 457	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:06:00 - [24] - Quote Atiim wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: AV is supposed to be buffer damage to assist your allied armor in taking out enemy tanks. Sorry that you want to camp on a tower spamming the right trigger thinking you're good. Reading comprehension: 0 You did read the part where I said that long ranges with swarms are not good for effectively using AV right? AV is supposed to be used for ANTI--VEHICLE. Where does the description does it say that it's main purpose is to help allied tanks? Reading comprehension: 0 did you miss the part where long range swarms are invisible? should I bold it?... I'm gonna bold it.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 1902	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:07:00 - [25] - Quote Atiim wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: AV is supposed to be buffer damage to assist your allied armor in taking out enemy tanks. Sorry that you want to camp on a tower spamming the right trigger thinking you're good. Reading comprehension: 0 You did read the part where I said that long ranges with swarms are not good for effectively using AV right? AV is supposed to be used for ANTI--VEHICLE. Where does the description does it say that it's main purpose is to help allied tanks? where in the description does it say "AV is meant to make vehicles unplayable and thus, nobody will bring them out ,effectively making this class dead also."
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 532	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:09:00 - [26] - Quote Since when were vehicles ment to be a 'bread and butter' class ... in my opinion Vehicles should be an endgame specialisation (hence the high costs both SP and ISK) skilled for after you've mastered (or at least got to a good level in) your chosen FPS class. It's not AVs fault people have decided to skip to the endgame without the income to support it. I've pretty much stepped out of this vehicles/AV debate for a while, since changes are coming and we don't know the half of them yet, but this just occered to me so I thought I'd share it.
Kane Fyea DUST University Ivy League 2087	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:10:00 - [27] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Atiim wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: AV is supposed to be buffer damage to assist your allied armor in taking out enemy tanks. Sorry that you want to camp on a tower spamming the right trigger thinking you're good. Reading comprehension: 0 You did read the part where I said that long ranges with swarms are not good for effectively using AV right? AV is supposed to be used for ANTI--VEHICLE. Where does the description does it say that it's main purpose is to help allied tanks? CCP wants Vehicles to kill vehicles. This means that AV is a suppression tactic. Run solo, you will be suppressing. If you want to kill vehicles with AV, you'll need to coordinate. Tankers actually use far more skill than AV will ever have to. I'd say pilots too, but they die too quick for their skill to be relevant. As someone who owns prototype AV and plenty of vehicles I can safely say that AV as is takes extremely little skill. If you work as a squad, it basically requires no skill. Can you show me a post where CCP has said themselves that only vehicles were supposed to destroy vehicles unless the infantry AV had 2-3 people. I have been active on these forums for the past 7 or 8 months and have yet to see a post or dev blog from CCP that says that's what they want. AV does require pretty much no skill but that isn't my fault. If it was my choice I would have an RPG style AV weapon instead of swarms but of course the only AV weapon that's kind of like that is the most underpowered weapon this game has (Plasma Cannon).
Sylwester Dziewiecki Beyond Hypothetical Box 193	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:10:00 - [28] - Quote Atiim wrote: Many loltankers say "We should be able to solo you and you shouldn't because we're just dumb" Well lets name the most common example of AV (with swarms). You are mid range (because long range swarms are easily avoidable), the tank is firing at you and so are the enemy infantry. If you are really lucky then you are able to wail on the tank, and destroy it, which most times is not the case. We will be gunned down by infantry long before this happens. Now lets name the perfect example (The ones people QQ about). The tank drives in a wide open field. Not paying attention, the Swarms wail on him to death with everything it's got, and the tanker QQs about being destroyed. So CCP listens to thier BS reasons and balance AV around teamwork. So for arguments sake, lets say that it now takes 3 people (half a squad) to tank out a tank. The LOLTank squad now uses 5-6 tanks, and we all have to use teamwork to defeat them. But it is "balanced" to force 3 people to take out ONE Tank. That would mean 15-16 people on AV just to deal with them (WHICH IS ONE ENTIRE TEAM!). And what about the enemy infantry? You think that they are just gonna sit there and watch the fireworks? NO!! They will go after all the objectives while the tanks freely stomp everyone without good AV resistance. Then you have the drug users who say MLT AV OHKO's thier "good" loltank. Well the only way to OHKO a "good" loltank would be to have Profecincy lvl 4 or 5 and a complex damage mod. These loltankers want tanks to become god and have MCC level health and resistance. They know what would happen if we "balance" AV this way. Don't let them stomp us! AV users unite! Let your voice be heard and put this evil to rest. And if CCP does listen to the tankers and tanks become the most OP thing in video game history, I'm gonna file a help ticket and Demand 1B ISK and 1M AUR, as well as a store front picture on the market of me saying I TOLD YOU SO! http://i.mycommentspace.com/125/12588.gif
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 532	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:11:00 - [29] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: CCP wants Vehicles to kill vehicles. LOL CCP doesn't know what they want half the time ... how you can claim to know just makes me laugh !
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 260	Posted - 2013.10.21 20:13:00 - [30] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: hang on... let me just... there we go brain is successfully unplugged. I think I might be on your level now... so, AV call it 50k suit should be able to solo a 1m tank. "tanks shouldn't be balanced around price!" right, so a tank should cost as much as a dropsuit? "long range swarms are easy to avoid" and they are also invisible, didn't know swarms had cloaking devices did you? EDIT: bolding for better visibility... maybe we should bold swarms. Never had a problem with invisible swarms in my Madrugar Then again, I guess we are both probably ignorant of the glitches that the other side faces while in combat.



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