My only minor gripe is the Gal logi bonus. Should they get a bonus to Caldari tech? I understand that Gallente ideology puts a greater importance on human life and so they're more inclined use them, but we're not great fans of using Caldari tech.

(Btw, I don't have an answer. Just putting the question out there. :P)

Small correction for you.

The min assault is currently sidearm clip size not hacking as you've claimed.
I'd also advice sticking with the theme and keeping all the assaults with a tanking racial bonus. CCP can make another specialisation for the melee one.

Anyone know the signature profile of a drop uplink? I'm thinking of having the Amarr scout bonus be about decrease uplink sig profile to keep them hidden.

EDIT: Could also just make it spawn time reduction.

I don't mind the 10% damage. It's basically a free damage mod. Just like current logis get a free complex rep. Seems fine to me.

I just recently made a post about the injector/repair problem, see point 7 and agree with you fully. I'm however fairly certain it doesn't matter what repair tool you use, I could be wrong though. I recall it used to be the way you described it (i.e. more rewarding to use vehicle repair tools on infantry because you'd get more ticks) but doing some testing a while back I found that at least when using the Core Focused repair tool the 25WP ticks come in faster. In my proposed fix I suggested that the extra 20-50% (compared to the militia/std 30%) armor repaired by better injectors should award equally many war points as if you repaired it with a repair tool.

Reposted from a thread I just made, but it's relevant here:
The Amarr Assault 5% heat reduction per level is out of line with other racial suit bonuses. It's the only dropsuit skill that provides a direct DPS increase (to the LR) and a sustained DPS increase (SCR). Therefore, using any other suit with those weapons, or other weapons with that suit, is effectively penalized. My Amarr Logi should be able to use the LR just as well as my assault comrades, instead of having to sacrifice a magical land of bonus damage in exchange for equipment slots. The LR either has to be slightly UP without the Amarr assault or slightly OP with it- there's no good way to balance a weapon whose damage is directly affected by choice of suit. I don't know what the Amarr assault bonus should be changed to, but the current state is bad. Thoughts?

I say keep the bonus as it is for now but add a module that does the same thing. ie. a heat sink that reduces heat build up of weapons by x%.

Reposted from a thread I just made, but it's relevant here:
The Amarr Assault 5% heat reduction per level is out of line with other racial suit bonuses. It's the only dropsuit skill that provides a direct DPS increase (to the LR) and a sustained DPS increase (SCR). Therefore, using any other suit with those weapons, or other weapons with that suit, is effectively penalized. My Amarr Logi should be able to use the LR just as well as my assault comrades, instead of having to sacrifice a magical land of bonus damage in exchange for equipment slots. The LR either has to be slightly UP without the Amarr assault or slightly OP with it- there's no good way to balance a weapon whose damage is directly affected by choice of suit. I don't know what the Amarr assault bonus should be changed to, but the current state is bad. Thoughts?

A few things.

Good overall, but I need to point out that Uplinks should never, EVER be cloaked from the map. If you want to try and convince me otherwise, please try, you have a wonderful way with words.

The Hacking bonus on the Minmatar Logi makes sense because Logi's are group support. Therefore, the guys they support fight while the Logi hacks. Not saying a Ninjahacker suit doesn't make sense, but there is the sound logic behind the Minmatar Logi bonus... although I would rather have a rep tool bonus...

Finally, Minmatar bonus to MELEE? Howaboutno? I can think of better things, even if a few of them are relying on Soon features.
10% faster projectile charge swapping speed, to swap from EMP rounds to Titanium Sabot, or other combos, in their native guns. Somewhat similar to the Amarr bonus.
The current sidearm bonus, but maybe slightly larger and only for Minmatar sidearms like the SMG.
Maybe a speed bonus? Not fond of it as we already have scouts, but it is very Minmatar...

I also noticed that AV has effectively been shunted over to the Heavy class suits, which I approve of. Commando gets bonuses for the light AV and Heavy IS the Heavy AV. Assaults have the small damage buff, but the Commando will have the real edge giving them a definitive set of roles. Also, Sentinel looks pretty skimpy, but they aren't really giving you much to work with there so it's understandable. Could give the MinHeav a similar Charge Swap bonus as I outlined for MinAssa though.

Like the bulk of it though. If you reply please like this post so I'll have a message, I'm going to bed naow.

Good overall, but I need to point out that Uplinks should never, EVER be cloaked from the map. If you want to try and convince me otherwise, please try, you have a wonderful way with words.

I disagree with you completely.
The Amarr make laser weaponry, so it only make sense that they would make their offensive suit (assault) to best utilize their weaponry.
Your logi should not be able to use an LR or SCR just as well as an Amarr assault, logis aren't meant for offense, while assaults are. Why should you be able to use it just as well as an assault?
The DPS still has to build up gradually with the LR, so its not just a simple DPS increase, its only on the condition that you survive the gun fight long enough to build to that higher DPS. An Amarr assault with an LR and some other suit with an LR will initially have the same DPS. That makes it fair IMO.
As for the SCR, the sustained DPS is functionally the same as a bigger magazine; which is what the Minmatar assault has as a bonus for sidearms.

Consider this, some assault suits' current bonoses gives them extra HP (Caldari shield extender bonus), why is that more balanced? Also the Gallente's hybrid weapon fitting bonus could allow someone to save just the right amount of PG/CPU to fit a complex damage mod that they otherwise would be unable to fit, an indirectly can make one have much higher DPS (and without having to buildup to it like the LR). Why are those more balanced?

I play as Amarr logi, and currently the bonuses is like having a built-in complex armor repairer, plus you get the armor repairer bonus, plus you get 2 more equipment slots, plus you get 1 more low slot (great for achieving high HP with an armor mod, or getting more speed with a kin catalyzer).

Changed Minmatar assault to 5% magazine size per level bonus for projectiles; SMG and combat rifle (SoonGäó).
Inspired a bit by the Amarr assault.

I came for the honeyed lamb... 4<(^.^)>-E

First, the Amarr logi has a sidearm slot- it's meant to be the most combat-ready logi. All logis, especially the Amarr, are meant to have non-trivial offensive capabilities. Logis do support, but that's by no means their only job. I should be able to use the LR just as well as an Amarr Assault because this restriction does not apply to any other weapon. I was certainly not saying that the Amarr Logi is less powerful overall than the Amarr assault.

All that's required to circumvent the initial build up time is a little LR preheating behind cover. Or, to put it a different way, the Amarr assault bonus makes a standard LR in their hands perform better than an ADV LR on any other suit.

For the SCR, it actually is very different than a straight clip size increase. The SCR's burst DPS, both with charge shots and uncharged shots, vastly outstrips any other weapon, including the AR. The balancing factor is the heat generation. While reduced heat generation, like clip size, does simply mean that you can fire for longer at a time, the effect on the SCR is very different than the effect on a SMG/SCP/FP. Waiting for heat to reduce is not at all the same as reloading, as you can charge the SCR during that time, or sprint, or throw grenades.

In comparison to the shield extender bonus or the Gal assault, the issue with the Amarr bonus is its extremely specific nature. Stronger shields or saving some PG/CPU is universally good and can be used in every situation, while heat reduction is either useless or incredibly good depending on your choice of weapon.

In comparison to the shield extender bonus or the Gal assault, the issue with the Amarr bonus is its extremely specific nature. Stronger shields or saving some PG/CPU is universally good and can be used in every situation, while heat reduction is either useless or incredibly good depending on your choice of weapon.

No one is saying logis are suppose to suck at offense, just like no one is saying assaults are suppose to be useless at support, but each specialization has a role they thrive in. So assaults are suppose to be better at offense, and logis are suppose to be better at defense, much like scouts are suppose to be better at steatlth, etc.

The fact that there is no percedent for a weapon being significantly better with one suit does not mean its a bad idea. I don't see a problem with it, and I wish other assault suits did something like that (I would love a projectile magazine size bonus for the Minmatar assault).

The Amarr assault is a very powerful bonus, but the specific nature of it balances it out. Its great at one thing, but gets no advantages at another thing; that's how specialization works. The fact that the bonus is only good for 2 weapons is balance enough.

I'm just starting to skill into Amarr assault on my main (after getting level 4 on an alt for testing), don't ruin it for me .

...is that not the point of a role bonus? To give them a specific role using their native tech? In EVE, almost any combat ship has a 10% to their racial turret damage or fire interval. If you are using a Railgun on a Hurricane, you aren't doing it wrong, but are doing it badly. Same thing here. Put a Laser on the Amarr, and it functions better. Works for me.

I dislike all of the direct bonus to X equipment/weapon it corals people down a path. I personally love the scrambler but hate Amman frames to the point where I pay for mlt gallente ones instead of using my free Ammar ones. And a 25% fitting cost reduction for Logi equipment is massive 15/10% would be more acceptable.

I suppose I wouldn't mind it if other races got similarly restrictive-but-powerful specialization bonuses. That would be a fun mechanics shift.
It just seems odd to me that only the Amarr have this going on right now in Dust, and I think it's damaging to game balance for them to be the only ones with it. For example, I use scrambler rifles extensively on a Minmatar suit, and they're certainly not underpowered- I can get off plenty of shots before overheating (about 1.2k damage worth, in about 2 seconds using uncharged shots. It can be overheated in <1 second easily if you start with a charge shot). I just shudder to think how much better it would be on an Amarr Assault. Since I can overheat a scrambler rifle in less than a second, decreasing heat generation actually is precisely a DPS increase, especially since I don't have perfect accuracy.

It allows you to get out more shots, but it's only important in a situation where overheating or having to pause for heat venting would get you killed. If that fellow vents your skull before you hit 50% heat, having an Amarr suit wouldn't have helped you. If that fellow was taken unawares, but he had a buddy, the Amarr suit may let you have enough heatsink to kill them both.

In my experience playing a glass-cannon SCR, situations where overheating or having to pause for heat venting would get me killed is every situation. Consider the following scenario with a non-Amarr suit: I pop out, shoot a charged shot and immediately follow up with uncharged shots. Generally, I can get charge + 3 shots before a full overheat. The time from the first shot to the overheat is <.5 seconds, easily fast enough that even a Duvolle AR will not have killed me yet, even if they're just as quick as me. It's highly plausible that an armor-tanked GalLogi or a heavy will survive the entire initial burst, necessitating either a weapon switch, cover, or death. The Amarr Assault suit would allow me to squeeze off multiple extra shots in that first second or two, effectively increasing my single-target DPS over that critical 1 to 2 second window of opportunity.

Thats not how percent bonuses work in this game; it's not an additive bonus, but a multiplicative bonus.
A militila/standard 30% injecter with the 50% from the Lv5 Gal Logi bonus will work this way: 30+ù(1+(0.1+ù5)) = 45
Advanced 60% injecter with the 50% from the Lv5 Gal Logi bonus: 60+ù(1+(0.1+ù5)) = 90
Proto 80% injecter with the 50% from the Lv5 Gal Logi bonus: 80+ù(1+(0.1+ù5)) = 120

...

A militila/standard 30% injecter with the 25% from the Lv5 Gal Logi: 30+ù(1+(0.05+ù5)) = 38
Advanced 60% injecter with the 25% from the Lv5 Gal Logi bonus: 60+ù(1+(0.05+ù5)) = 75
Proto 80% injecter with the 25% from the Lv5 Gal Logi bonus: 80+ù(1+(0.05+ù5)) = 100

I posted some thoughs on Tech 1 / Tech 2 bonuses a week or so ago. I put them with some Amarr suits to help illustrate the point.

Assault and Logi:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1283162#post1283162

Here they are for Scouts:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1285669#post1285669

A few thoughts:

A good Assault bonus could be 5% bonus to RoF per level. This is a DPS increase, but also makes it so that Assaults have to reload more often. I put this on my Tech 2 Assaults (in the above threads) to give them a specialized damage boost but keep them reliant on others to provide nanohives and such (my Tech 2 Assaults don't have equipment).

Also, a shield recharge rate bonus over an extenders bonus for the Caldari is perfect. In EVE the Caldari often passive tank their shields, relying on recharge rate to keep them ahead of the damage (Drake). This would go well here in DUST.

Finally, I hope that we get other suits with differing bonuses within the same "class". So two Caldari "Assault" suits; one that benefits CQC hybrid damage and provides and extender bonus (for brawling) and one that benefits range and provides a recharge bonus (for range). Again, just like ships in EVE. The Caldari have a bunch of Frigates, and they all have different bonuses that make them work better in some situations than others.

I very much like your deep specialization ideas, but this thread is just about the existing ones. I very much like the RoF bonus idea for assaults. Might change it in my thread after thinking about it some more.

Did some changes

Assault bonus: 5% light weapon PG/CPU reduction per lv. Assaults are about offense, weapons should be emphasized.
Caldari bonus: 3% range increase of railgun weapons per lv; good for sniper, rail rifle (SoonGäó), & magsec SMG(SoonGäó).
Gallente bonus: 1% damage per level of plasma weapons; AR, shotgun, plasma cannon.
Minmatar bonus: 5% increase in magazine size per lv for projectile & explosive weapons; SMG, flaylock, MD, & Combat rifle (SoonGäó).

Sentinel bonus: 3% resistance to light weapons per lv; this is to emphasize the defensive nature of sentinels.
Am bonus: 2% per lv armor plate + shield extender bonus. Amarr are about HP, and dual tank in Dust (unlike in EVE).
Cal bonus: 5% shield recharge rate per lv.

I'd probably change the shield recharge rate bonus to shield recharger efficacy and give the bonus to the Minmatar. Minmatar heavy will probably the the squishiest but have a crazy shield regen. Caldari heavy should have the highest shield buffer with a 5% extender bonus.

Again, you should probably try to better generalize logi bonuses for a variety of equipment. The bonuses you have listed would be more fitting for more specialized logistic suit roles in the future.

I'd kinda like assault-bonuses to all be weapon-themed, but I can also see the value in espousing tank bonuses there. I wonder if it would be bad to have multiple bonuses per suit-spec.

That is, intead of ONE assault global bonus and ONE racial bonus, have a few bonuses attached to each racial spec.

e.g. -

Assault bonus: 1% damage

Minmatar bonuses
1. Shield/armor module 2% fitting reduction per level
2. 5% Magazine size increase per level for Minmatar weapons: (Combat Rifle, Precision Rifle, Mass Driver, Flaylock, SMG)

Caldari Bonus
1. 5% Shield Extender Efficacy Per Level
2. 3% Caldari Weapon Reload speed: (Sniper Rifle, Swarm Launcher, Rail Rifle, Rail pistol)

Amarr Bonus
1. 4% Armor Plate Efficacy Per Level
2. 5% Heat build-up reduction per level for laser weapons, Scrambler pistol fire-rate increase of 1% per level.

Gallente Bonus
1. 10% Armor Repairer Efficacy per Level
2. 1% Plasma Weapon Fire rate bonus per level, 5% Plasma Cannon Projectile speed increase per level.

Those are just examples, but freed from the idea of singular bonuses - you can give every race a bonus that's both useful for tanking and useful for weaponry/attacking. Having multiple bonuses instead of singular bonuses would also get around having a bonuses to equipment that are overly restrictive on logistics.

I don't see any reason why you couldn't craft exceptions/additional bonuses if you wanted to make sure the Amarr got a bonus to Scrambler pistols or the Mass Driver received a different bonus in lieu of magazine-size either (for example). The current single-bonus system is overly restrictive role-wise and in terms of imagination. We can do better!

Barring that, suit sub-specialties that give those sorts of bonuses would be a good idea. (i.e. at Caldari Assault 3, you unlock sub-skills beneath it on the tree like Caldari Weapon Mastery or Caldari Damage Mitigation).

Did some changes

Assault bonus: 5% light weapon PG/CPU reduction per lv. Assaults are about offense, weapons should be emphasized.
Caldari bonus: 3% range increase of railgun weapons per lv; good for sniper, rail rifle (SoonGäó), & magsec SMG(SoonGäó).
Gallente bonus: 1% damage per level of plasma weapons; AR, shotgun, plasma cannon.
Minmatar bonus: 5% increase in magazine size per lv for projectile & explosive weapons; SMG, flaylock, MD, & Combat rifle (SoonGäó).

Sentinel bonus: 3% resistance to light weapons per lv; this is to emphasize the defensive nature of sentinels.
Am bonus: 2% per lv armor plate + shield extender bonus. Amarr are about HP, and dual tank in Dust (unlike in EVE).
Cal bonus: 5% shield recharge rate per lv.

Read the first paragraph.

Liked it, except the Gallente Assault bonus should be like a unrelated bonus, however appreciable bonus.

Like max ammo, or optimal range for blaster hybrids. Or damage mod efficency

Because relegating the ten percent bonus to a suit will make it the one assault suit to use.

Otherwise, I like it.

That's kind of a good point. I did like when the Assaults just got 1% per level to damage, that was cool. Maybe just give different bonuses for different weapons. Something like: X% reduction to dispersion for assault rifle and shotgun; X% increase to splash radius of plasma cannon.

That's a horrible bonus for gallente, and i don't mean cause it's op i mean cause it's under powered, a measly 1 %, no i think that gallente needs to get something like an armor repair bonus, or a resistance against other plasma weapons/weapons that damage armor.

Maxed out is 5% damage bonus. Think it should be 2% instead (and 10% maxed out)?
Assaults should get bonuses to offense and weapons, not HP things like resistances and repair.

I would like built in repair rates for certain suits, but that's a different issue.

I'm not so sure I like it either, but for a differing reason. It alters TTK, which as we have seen can very easily alter the flow of the entire game. Thinking on it, what are Blasters? High RoF, High DPS, decent reloads, low range. We can't alter RoF as I stated before, we all saw what happened when we altered range profiles with Sharpshooter, reloads are the realm of the Commando, and as of 1.4 we saw what a decreased TTK could do. Mayhaps a further fitting ease would be prudent, as the Gallente are kings of managing power and CPU on a suit, evidenced by the lack of a bulky back mounted structure. Another decent idea would be to cinch up the dispersion rate of Blaster weapons, if they ever get around to widening them up to the level they aught to be.

With the exception of the Amarr logi which is meant to be sort of an assault logi, logis are meant for support; their bonuses should reflect that. HP/regen bonuses belong on sentinels since they are the ones who are truly about HP.

Survivability as a logistics player is key to being able to do their job. Bonuses to their racial survivability source make sense.

Amarr are dual tanked.
Caldari are shield tanked.
Gallente are armor tanked.
Minmatar are speed tanked.


What you have suggested other than amarr would be more fitting as proficiency skills.

Besides that the skills are only useful in pub matches. In a PC match:
- Nobody lives long enough to need more ammo(and chances are that if a hive is dropped it will be destroyed before it uses it's standard amount of clusters - especially now that WP will be gained for destroying equipment).
- Nobody uses injectors as it's usually a suicide mission.
- Very few players use repair tools(even more so now when you can't see friendly health).

Equipment/module/weapon specific bonuses are bad because not everyone uses those items plus their dubious value in end game matches.

The racial bonuses you have suggested would equal a double nerf to logistics players(removing armor repair and giving players a useless racial skill).

General bonuses over specific bonuses are what should be looked at. Things that are useful regardless of your fitting.

Maybe for Caldari the shield becomes hardened vs anti shield weaponry by 1% per level, something similar for Gallente, the Minmatar mobility suggestion I posted earlier.

I hate to ask, but what is a repair tool? Let the flaming begin...Nanohives FTW. BTW there is no good reason to use a repair tool unless you want one member of a squad without a weapon in their hands when I come to shoot them.

I like the hacking bonus, go mess with someone else's racial variant.

I was thinking about the logi suits and while I do like your suggested bonuses Kage, I actually think they might be better off with some reps. Just because if they're always healing/supporting everyone else, there's no one to be healing them. Since they can't shoot themselves with their rep tool (yet), it kinda makes sense to give them some passive armor reps. So how about just giving the dropsuits themselves an armor repair rate of 1HP/s or something like that, just like the Minmatar assault suit. Of course, this would also mean thinking of a new passive bonus for the Amarr logi, unless you just wanna keep it and let the reps stack.

Currently all dropsuits have a base armor repair rate of 0.0 (except minmatar non-logistics). Dropsuits that are better suited to armor tanking could have a base higher armor repair rate.

This is an example of what it could be like:
Light Frames
Caldari: 0
Minmatar: 0
Amarr: 1
Galente: 2

Medium Frames Logistics base skill should not give a base repair rate for this to work.
Caldari: 0
Minmatar: 1
Armarr: 2
Gallente: 3

Heavy Frames
Caldary: 1
Minmatar: 2
Amarr: 3
Galente: 4

This is needed because for armor tanking, one needs to put armor repairs to be viable and 1 repper is usaully is not enough, and using multiple reppers greatly reduces tanking capabilities. By comparison, shield tankers can end up with similar amounts of HP, and still have a much higher regeneration rate. So, the more armor-based a suit is, the more it needs inherent repair rates.

How things currently work in PC is a bunch of Cal logis running around with duvolles. Logi survivabiliy make them preferable to assaults for assaulting. The extra 1 module slot compared to assaults (or extra 2 mod slots in the case of the Cal logi) is enough to give the logis higher survivability; use it to fit an extra repairer, armor plate, or shield extender.
Not every battle is PC, in fact the overwhelming majority of players who play Dust has never played PC, so its ridiculous to have everything designed for PC.
The fact that certain equipment is not used in PC perhaps means that those equipments need buffs, it doesn't mean that a specialization designed to carry more equipment should not get a bonus to equipment.

Currently PC is all about forge guns and mass drivers from high locations - far fewer Caldari logistics suits recently(since it's debuff).

PG and CPU reduction to equipment is a bonus to equipment. An additional bonus to specific equipment isn't really a bonus(especially if that equipment goes unused). The logistics class doesn't need another bonus to equipment.

The failure of injectors, hives, and repair tools can not be fixed by any kind of buff as the issues are in their core mechanics.

As for balancing for PC, any bonus that works in PC will work in pubs while the inverse is not true.

Armor tanking classes need base armor repair. Have skills that add 1 armor/s per level for Amarr and Gallente heavy/medium/light. I dont like my 500 armor taking a full 3 minutes to heal. 1 kill every 3 minutes amounts to 5 kills a game if I never died and always lost all my armor. Shields don't have to worry about that.

it is kindof the point of shields, but that said shields are abit too sturdy and armor abit too fragile when you take into account their native repair rates. Maybe a skill within the tree, Amarr Armor Repair and Gallente Armore Repair, etc, each raising at levels that make sense for their race. Maybe a few more 'core' skills like that are needed to help flesh the races, throw it all into role bonuses and things get abit murky on the stats page...

The fitting reduction, unless they changed it after I chose my Dropsuit spec, is for Gallente Logi only yes? The bonus being moved to the entire Logi tree makes sense, even if I will miss my free armor reps. The further bonuses to specific equipment are meant to give each Logi a seperate specific role. Is your corp full of heavies and Gallente? Get a few Minmatar Logi to aid your armor reppers so they can afford to brick tank. Do your tactics rely on defending positions? Grab a CalLogi for the extended life hives. Also, I have to rely on the 'EVE does it too' argument here. Take a look at the Scythe here, every bonus is on the Shield Transporter. You COULD equip a remote armor repper to it... if you REALLY wanted to. Mildly brain-damaged, but it can be done.

Secondly, the hives, injectors, and reppers do not 'fail' unless you are milking WP. I don't begrudge you for doing so, but the WP rewards should not be counted as part of the 'effectiveness' of equipment. The GalLogi using the injectors makes sense, as Gal are fast and have decent armor, allowing them to rush out into a non-safe zone and perform triage. The Minny with the repper makes sense as well, as they are the fastest Logi at standard movement speed, so they can keep up with their patients while healing. For these tools in general, the Repair Tool allows for infinite, precision armor repair on the go, while the Injector provides the unequaled service of revival and loss prevention. I can stab people with it and not have it fail, so it works fine in its role. The Repair Tool isn't really underpowered either, it could use a small buff and a Shield version, but the real problem there is the Triage Hives being a tad OP. Even then, the Triage Hives are limited, and run out quickly if abused.

Finally, I won't pretend to know what goes on in PC. As of right now it is a competitive gaming zone, and therefore I feel it is a cancer. However, a bonus should be applied to the GAME, NOT to the competitive metagame. You don't see anyone in competitive TF2 use anything but a select few guns, no matter how many are made and added to the game. This is because the metagame decides which are the best of the best, and people only use them. If a developer designs with the metagame at the forefront, the game itself will wither as a result.

I like the equipment fitting reduction skill(I like the HP/s more but it seems to be the most hated thing the logistics suits currently have so whatever).

The problem with using the Scythe as an example is that it's designed specifically for one thing while the logistics suit is designed for many things.

Hives, injectors, and repair tools work just fine in pubs. They fail utterly in PC except in extremely rare circumstances but resources used by them would be better used elsewhere at all other times.

I'm not asking that the bonuses be focused on PC, what I want are bonuses that are useful in the entire game(both pubs and PC). That being said I believe that if a bonus is useful in PC it will be useful in pubs.

That about right? Sounds like these bonuses would fix that somewhat, giving the assault suits the power to be the weapons guys, and the Logis the repair aptitude to be allowed to drop their gun once in a while.

The Minmatar would need to be changed to a higher percentage to prevent it from being a dead skill - at least 10% per level(25% of 2 is less than 3).

Actually, what it does is kills versatility in a role designed for diversity.

I did some thinking on the logistics bonuses and like I mentioned earlier in the topic, the need to be more generalized while being equipment oriented instead of tied down to a single piece of equipment that you're not always going to carry given the circumstances you need to adapt to in a single battle. Also, we're going to get more equipment at some point and for a class meant to use equipment, shouldn't their bonuses affect as much of it as possible?

Gallente: +5% to equipment range per level. Instead of being tied to one thing, you get a bonus that can affect the effective range of nanohives, reppers, the active scanner, the blast radius for REs/Mines and can fit with other equipment we might get later like target painters, bubble shields, webifiers... etc.

Amarr: +5% to armor repair module efficacy per level. Honestly, there's really nothing wrong with the Amarr bonus. It fits with the suit as an assault/logi hybrid and since it affects armor repair on a suit that only gets 4 low slots at prototype it's not overpowering. The only change I would make is to extend that bonus to reactive plates as well to add more flexability to the suit's armor tanking options.

Caldari: -5% to equipment cooldown per level. Similar to the Gallete, this would affect a broader range of equipment instead of one thing, but just like the Gallente, focus on reusable equipment. This would apply to the active scanner, but later down the road any and all equipment that would have a cooldown like anything EWAR related.

Before I go into the Minmatar bonus, I still don't see what the issue is for a suit bonus that only works in 2/3 of the game's available modes. I'd rather keep the hacking bonus since it's what everyone wants logistics to be- non combat oriented. But if the bonus has to go, I'd suggest something like this.

Minmatar: +5% to deployed equipment carried per level. At max level this would affect how many nanohives, uplinks, and later on bubble shields, proximity scanners, decoys, or any other deployed equipment that would come into the game.

I'm open to ideas as long as they fit with the logi's focus on equipment. I do like where you're going with this, but there are some issues with what you propose.
The cooldown reduction bonus would be only useful for active scanner until other equipment with cooldown comes, and we don't even know if EWAR stuff will be deployable or cooldown based. I don't want a bonus based on the assumption of how a future piece of equipment might work.
5% (25% max) units carried bonus would be useless to many deployable equipment, since 25% of the maximum carried for many is still less than one. Though I suppose anything 0.5 or higher can be rounded up to to 1. EDIT: Nevermind, I see you said elsewhere that it should round up.
The Amarr logi bonus I'm fine with your idea or my idea.

EDIT: Regarding the current Minmatar logi bonus, its not so much that its an issue, its just that it doesn't really fit with the logi's emphasis on equipment, and it would work MUCH better on the Minmatar scout. The current scout's melee damage even with maxed out melee bonus is still weak compared to a medium frame's melee, and a bonus to another race's knives doesn't make sense; even if its changed to a bonus for the Minmatar knives when they come out, it will still be weird that only one race's suit gets a bonus to their knives. The fastest scout having the hacking speed bonus would make the most sense to me.

If these changes come, there would have to be an SP refund, so you could rethink your role and specializations if you need to.

There is a problem most of you are willfully ignoring on the subject of Logis. They are not designed to be equipment mules, they just happen to be thrust into that role via bad foresight. If anything, Scouts are better suited to use Equipment. Logistics just make a good equipment mule due to their high number of slots and high fitting, similar to what makes them as good at killing as Assaults. These bonuses are meant to cinch up each suit's roles and to give each class of suits the roles they were envisioned to have.

Imagine that the game is TF2 for a moment.
Logi is Medic, but can also equip Engineer's wrench and build stuff. Due to Medic's greater speed, HP, and regen, people will always choose Medic over Engie. There is also the fact that in this little universe, Engie does not exist, so they feel that choosing Medic to Engineer is normal.

That is the state of DUST. there is no Engineer role suit, so the Logistics suit is filling in for it. When they get around to fixing the role bonus problems, they will make the Logistics suits actually focus on Logistics, which is EVE slang for Healing. They will then make a new suit for the other Equipment, like the some of the Type-2 suits used to be.

Therefore, I feel that we should make a new class of suits in the OP. The Engineer class.

Minmatar will get bonuses to Remote Explosives due to their speed and lower, but not lowest, scan profile. This may cover all the explosives, like proximity.
Amarr will get bonuses to the Drop Uplink, as they are the slower and tankier ones they will be the ones most familiar with advantageous terrain.
Gallente would hopefully get drones. Sentry drones for point defense, small drones for personal mobile support, etc. Or, they can get the Active Scanner and Point Defense Drones while GalLogi gets bonuses to repair drones.
Caldari, I'm honestly not too sure on. I'm not a major Caldari in any verse, but maybe... Webbifiers? interdiction bubbles? EWAR? Should another suit entirely be EWAR? Help me out here.

EDIT: Make shield repper. Give CalLogi bonus to Shield Repper. Give CalEngie bonus to Nanohives. Boom.

From a TF perspective:
Scout = Scout and Spy
Heavy = Pyro, Heavy, and Soldier
Logi = Engineer, Demoman, and Medic
Assault = Soldier

Did you consider a bonus to Assault Damage with light weapons?

I know it sounds pretty silly but I always thought of the assault suit like the wasp while the logi was the bee.

Wasps by common stero type and thin and lithe, they dart about with a painful sting, which they can use again and again and again.

Bee's/ Bumble Bees are the slower, more clumsy, by more formidable in stature, sting once, but fulfil a supporting role in the hive.

I just imagined the Assault would have high DPS, but low EHP and require logi support to stay alive, coupling that with their relative speed over the other suits, while Logis would be higher EHP, but low a DPS, harder to kill but more resilient in a fight

I originally had assault bonus be a a 2% damage bonus per level, but eventually changed it and gave damage bonus to Gallente instead since their weapons are about DPS, and made it 5% total since many thought 10% was too much.
I suppose the damage bonus could be the general bonus, and Gallente could keep the current PG/CPU bonus but make it specifically for plasma weapons. I had a skype conversation with some other posters, and they preferred something more... interesting then the PG/CPU thing for Gallente assault.

I might change it again.

Those ideas weren't etched in stone, just something to show you the kind of flexibility the bonuses need. Bonuses to specific pieces of equipment is the ultimate dud a lot of logistics players are dreading. For example, I'm a Minmatar logi and I rarely use my repper and focus more on triage hives. A repair tool bonus would be as useful for me as a screen door on a submarine. Also, I was thinking ahead on the different types of equipment we may eventually be getting in hopes that when the bonuses do change we'll have more gear to show for it as well.

The hacking bonus actually is pretty in line with the logi suit when you think about it. All the Minmatar suits are built for guerrilla hit and run tactics. Assaults make great flankers, scouts (used to) make great alpha damage assassins, and the logi is an excellent infiltrator and trapper. The heavy will most likely wind up having the lowest EHP, but the highest shield recharge rate, lowest delay and most mobility.

I do not feel that is right given the state of the AR which ignores the rules of Blaster tech

I'm about to change the proposal, I need ideas.
I can't use the max units carried for deployables thing since even if I round up, It will still be useless at early levels.
The range Idea is great (Repair tool range, active scanner range, active scanner range, nanohive supply radius).
I'm also thinking of an efficacy bonus (effects repair rate of repair tool, nanohive resupply rate, active scanner precision, RE/PM, RE max spawns)
I need a third idea.

OPENED TO SUGGESTIONS

I like these suggestions as they are useful without being specific while being focused on equipment.

For a third idea what about an equipment cool down reduction. It would be very useful for active scanners(maybe too useful) but would also affect uplinks(I have no idea why they have a cool down) and explosives(there will likely be future equipment with cool downs as well).

This is a very good suggestion in my opinion
The skill bonuses I've seen while I was playing seem to be very haphazard, with the same specialization promoting completely random playstyles depending on race.

I also noticed, however, that a large portion of your ideas were based on as-yet-unannounced gear items, specifically melee weapons. I have an idea, but I wish to remain on-topic, so I'll probably post a new thread with the suggestion.

I believe I heard somewhere that they were going to add perks/skills to using race weapons with characters (nothing drastic like a damage boost for instance, just reflecting their combined origin / familiarity - less kick?)
And I think the Min scouts + logi's would be upset with the skill changes - doesn't reflect the lore. Scouts are close combat experts

Incidental the lore is also why Commando's can punch like a a runaway freight train and break a light frame in one swing

I think I'd be more comfortable with Assaults getting a 5% reduction to CPU/PG of all Light Weapons and Sidearms. It would allow them to fit higher tier weapons while still giving room for better Slot fittings.

The idea of Duvolle Assault Rifle with 15% proficiency bonus, and a 10% Suit bonus, combined with Damage Mods really doesn't appeal to me.

Unless my math is completely wrong, (a possibility I fully admit to) with 2 Complex Damage Mods it would be doing 56.57 damage wit ha 707.12 DPS. 37.4 base for the Duvolle, plus 15% for Prof Skill (43.01), plus 10% for the Suit bonus (47.31) plus 10% for the first Damage Mod (52.04) plus 8.7%(?) for the second Damage Mod equals 56.57 damage per shot, times 12.5 rounds per second ROF makes it 707.12 DPS.

I think this bonus could push the damage output of one Class above what any other class can take, or dish out in return.

Damage mods have stacking penalties; each successive one reduces in effectiveness.
I would like the 10% damage buffs to all weapons that Uprising brought reduced. If the assault bonus is only 5%, then it would be 5% less powerful then guns currently are right now.

Also assaultts are about offense, so in my opinion they are supposed to dish out more damage.
I proposed sentinels get a damage resistance bonus, so they would be able to take it.

Maybe change the skill to speed increase for equipment. Hives would pulse faster(same amount of clusters with the same amount of ammo replenished but simply faster), uplinks would spawn quicker, scan rate would be quicker but time showing would remain the same. There is an overlap with the repair tool and the efficacy option(efficacy repairs more, but this one repairs more often - should equal out to be the same amount repaired over the same time period). Perhaps this could be used in conjunction with cool downs but it may not be necessary.

It's basically overclocking your equipment.

Alright, NEW logi bonus proposal

Cal bonus: 5% range of equipment per level; repair tool range, active scanner range, RE/PM blast radius, nanohive supply radius.

Gal bonus: 5% efficacy of equipment; repair rate of repair tool, nanohive resupply rate, active scanner precision, RE/PM damage, drop uplink max spawns, and injector armor revived.

Min bonus: 5% equipment speed; faster active scanner cooldown, faster nanohive pulses, faster drop uplink spawns, and increase in repair rate, faster injector animation.

pew pew

EDIT: Also changed the Gallente bonus again.

Agreed. Good work. Logis are in great condition.


I do have a few suggestions though:

Gallente Assault may become too powerful with the extra damage percentage. Considering that many of the weapons are slow to reload and have high DPS or alpha damage maybe a reduction to reload time would be an option.

Conversely the commando reload speed isn't as useful as I presume the player will switch to their other weapon when one is depleted. The damage increase for racial light weapons may fit better for commandos as they are light weapon specialists.

Gallente assault would only have 5% more damage than other assaults. Other assaults get things like bigger magazines, less heat buildup (higher damage potential for laser rifle), and more range (remember how big an advantage sharpshooter was in Chromosome?).

I don't like damage for commandos, seems to assault-y

I'm actually thinking about how powerful the AR is now that hit detection has been improved. We are going to end up with a predominant amount of players going Gallente assault simply because the AR gets a bonus to damage(it will be like the Caldari logi suit all over again).

Reload speed doesn't seem to fit with the commando. I'm not sure what would be a useful skill for it though.

I have a different viewpoint on the commando suits. Perhaps they could add a percent movement speed on commando suits to compensate for there considerably low health. Not to make them as fast as medium suits, but at least make them faster than the lugging tanks that other heavies are, because commando suits cannot be health tanked enough to compensate for there excruciatingly slow speed.

Commando should've been a light frame...

I agree w/ all except min logi's bonus is kinda ****** because most equipment don't get a bonus for this. Also the ammar scout's bonus kinda seems too niche and not versatile enough.

I'd say keep the hacking bonus anyway. Probably the best non-combat bonus in the game and it's been a staple of the Minmatar suit since its inception. Only difference is it got buffed and became a listed bonus in uprising.

If the Min logi kept the hacking bonus, what would the Min scout get? The current Min scout bonus sucks for practical and lore reasons I already explained.
Maybe biotic module efficacy?

Change the galllente assault to,+10% to their weapons while everyone elses has 5 especially with ar as prevalent as it is

Hacking bonus is still too scouty for a logi IMO.

I agree w/ all except min logi's bonus is kinda ****** because most equipment don't get a bonus for this. Also the ammar scout's bonus kinda seems too niche and not versatile enough.

I would not give any damage bonus in this game. you already die very fast and a damage bonus which do not suffer from stacking penalty is not the right way imho...

Minmatar Assault needs sorting, 5% to sidearm clip size isn't in anyway useful to me

If you read carefully, you would see that the Minmatar Assault bonus affects Light AND sidearm weapons.

There's a problem with that. SMG, that works. But that's IT. 5% of the Flaylock's 3 is nothing. 5% of Mass Driver's 6 is nothing. 5% won't work with the Combat Rifle as it's a Burst Rifle. The bonus isn't bad, but it needs work because applying it so braodly makes it only good for one or two weapons, and perfunctory box-checking for the remainder.

Is it just me or is this topic just another nerf logi campaign?

Is it just me or is this topic just another nerf logi campaign?

Not everything is about logis. I covered 5 specializations.
Maybe you're just too defensive to see how silly and completely arbitrary the current bonuses are. Bonuses should emphasize the role of the suit. If you want a logi to have a bonus best suited for something else, then perhaps you should be playing as that something else instead.
I listened to your complaints, and made bonuses more generalized instead of being for 1 specific equipment.

Not everything is about logis. I covered 5 specializations.
Maybe you're just too defensive to see how silly and completely arbitrary the current bonuses are. Bonuses should emphasize the role of the suit. If you want a logi to have a bonus best suited for something else, then perhaps you should be playing as that something else instead.
I listened to your complaints, and made bonuses more generalized instead of being for 1 specific equipment.

Indeed. Logistics ships in EVE have massive bonuses to Logistics role modules

1000% to 2000% bonuses to effectiveness of Shield Transporters, Armour Reppers, etc.

Logis should be high EHP, low damage, variable frames. They should not have the capacity to run Assault better than Assault can.

How come everyone that says a logi is a better assault never backs that up with anything mathematical? How come nobody ever realized it was one suit (Caldari) that was this uber assault people talked about? How come a hacking bonus is somehow not logi enough? I specced into Minmatar logi over the Gallente for the versatility in slot layout and the hacking bonus. Find me someone that says the hacking bonus killed them, and maybe I'll change my mind, but in the meantime, you're just attacking something people invested SP into. Make sure you think about that before shifting bonuses around.

Hacking bonus is not logi enough because it has nothing to do with equipment; which is the whole point of logis (carry equipment to support, or to whatever). That's pretty simple.
I don't really think logis are better for assaulting except the Cal logi (more high slots for more damage mods), but I don't think the logi bonuses really fit either.

Why did you feel the need to change the equipment speed bonus for the Minmatar logi to a relatively useless carried equipment bonus? There's no point in carrying 7 of something if I can only deploy 2 at a time.

I felt the equipment speed thing was kind of useless compared to the others. The new proposed bonus allows you to have more equipment left over if you find a better spot; personally I hate using up both nanohives or my only compact nanohive, and finding a much better spot a minute later (also applies to uplinks). Also its pretty great for explosives.
I could edit the proposal to also increase maximum amount of deployables that can be active also, what do you think?

You're underestimating how useful faster equipment would be.

As for increasing the number of active equipment I don't think it should be done(at least not per level - as much as I'd like to build a giant Alfred E. Neuman out of uplinks it would be too much). That and too much deployed equipment lags the game(although we can hopefully ignore that as it will likely get fixed).

How about this?
Level 1: +1 Carried
Level 2: +1 Deployed
Level 3: +1 Carried
Level 4: +1 Deployed
Level 5: +1 Carried

You would end up with 3 extra carried and 2 extra deployable. This would keep it useful without it being too powerful.

I would accept that or faster equipment(they would be equally useful to me). That being said extra equipment would be more useful to more players.



While I would miss the hacking speed I would find either of the above more useful more of the tume(I would be spending the exorbitant amount of SP to get Codebreaking up to level 5).

Its PER LEVEL! 25% increase for the flaylock gives you 1 extra round. 25% of the Mass driver's 6 gives you 1 more rounds, for the assault Mass Driver that would be 2 more; and for the combat rifle, it'll extend the time you can keep firing since you'll have a bigger magazine size.

I'm glad that you decided to speak up on this topic, seeing as how nobody else has.

Yep.....there have totally been no threads on this topic ever before or anything like that.

Says the alt.

Also, that setup is laughable from my Logistics point of view. It would force anyone who wants to play Logistics to be Caldari, as they are the only ones with an equipment bonus. The Minmatar Assault also has the same problem as this thread's, namely that small clip and burstfire weapons would be screwed over in favor of automatic bullethoses. Furthermore, all the bonuses are generic as hell. MinAss gets bonuses to all Light and Sidearm weapons, for example. That only serves to highlight the ones he decides to keep blindingly narrow, like the Minmatar Scout with ONLY Nova Knives.

Also, he doesn't seem to have any kind of theme running, not even by races or by suit classes. He says each is in its 'role' but its sad that Logi Bro doesn't understand that Logi's are healers...

Anyway, my biggest complaint is that I would be forced to play as a Caldari id I wanted to use ANY of the healing equipment. In EVE, a Scythe is one of THE Logistics ships. It is made for the sole purpose of shield transporting, but other races have equivalents that match their play-style. This would be akin to making the Amarr Logistics ship the only one with armor repper bonuses, and giving the Gallentean Logisticsbonuses to setting space mines. This is why we need an engineer suit, because so many people conflate the equipment slots as the Logistics being an equipment mule. Its like people that think that a Rohk mines better than a Hulk because it has more laser hardpoints. They are dead wrong, but its easy enough to see why they thought that.

Furthermore, all the bonuses are generic as hell.

Blah blah bleeeeehhhhh I'm just a hater, and my breath smells like old fungus socks. I don't respect KAGEHOSHI's obvious supreme higher intellect.

This is better than your originally proposed change but I think you are avoiding the real reason for your reluctance to have a hacking buff on the Minmatar Logi suit. I don't think the suit needs any change unless it is to add the buff you propose to the suit. Taking away the current hacking bonus is not an answer but adding additional bonuses for a Logi suit would help offset the sheer cost to deploy with Proto gear (Proto Everything). Currently an all proto logi suit (RT, Injector, hives, links, weapon, armor/shields, scanner, damage mods/codebreakers) costs close to 300,000 isk. For someone to be running all the good stuff and buffing their team with all this good equipment they should given a reward for using this stuff that helps both the team and themselves. The hacking bonus combined with the 50% increase to max equip carried and deployed would do just that. It doesn't make them a killer but rather than being forced to resupply when hives or links are depleted they could continue to be a roaming supply center for a good deal longer and would still be helpful when hacking installations like they always have been.

lol, most of the bonuses on THIS thread are word for word copied of the thread I linked. That was just ONE example of a thread by the way, there have like 50 different threads that any of you could have gone to to discuss this topic, but you added just one more to the mass. Don't try to make a big argument about logistics with me btw, because you are wrong that logis are healers, they simply have a lot of equipment, that doesn't mean that their function has to be streamlined to one specific function.

Bringing up D&D doesn't qualify you as an expert on logistics. There are no defined roles in this game, smart guy, the only reason we have the great in-depth suit customization is so we can do what we want how we want. I can equip an AR and stack damage mods on a logi suit, and there is nothing wrong with that, because there are no defined roles. Like I already said, the only clearly defined aspect of the logistics class is the abundance of equipment slots. That does not in any way set it specifically as a healer.

But I am getting the feeling that I am talking to a brick wall.

NOT avoiding, already addressed it. I'll copy/paste
"Hacking bonus is not logi enough because it has nothing to do with equipment; which is the whole point of logis (carry equipment to support, or to whatever). That's pretty simple. Hacking speed belongs on a fast stealthy suit that can better take advantage of it."

You sir are wrong, and still avoiding the issue. A scout would get there quick, hack quick and run circles around the map constantly jacking points while the logi bro acts like a medic or waterboy, with no real usefulness aside from equipment deployment. I would argue that all logis should have the hacking bonus. The logi suit is a larger sig and easier to find making it rather balanced for someone with a hacking bonus.

As for not logi enough, I support my team by hacking points, deploying equipment and shooting people. How is this not a support role?

I agree with Kagehoshi on this one.

I think the current logi line up should be about equipment.
Eventually there should be another set of medium suits that focus on ewar. Perhaps some of these should get hacking bonuses.

The hacking bonus seems to fit better on the scout at the moment rather than the logi.

Incidentally I trained min Logi 5 especially for the hacking bonus.

I would prefer E-war stuff to be on a light frames like scouts instead of medium frames. Scouts are already about E-war.

Why not both? With different emphasis with each.

It all depends on the rest of the ewar we get though.
Currently we just have scanning and hacking.

I like this idea a lot, though I'm not sure it could realistically be implemented. I don't know if CCP can make skills work that way. Could just make it a percentage; 50% max carried + 50 max deployed per level. When maxed out it would 250% more carried and deployed, is is 3x more if it rounds up.

I addressed the issue, you asked why I'm reluctant to let the Minmatar logi keep the hacking bonus, and I told you already; it doesn't fit with the logi's role, which is equipment carrying; equipment can be used either for support, or for offensive reasons. Just because you don't like my answer doesn't mean I didn't address the issue.

Even when you're playing as a scout, running speed means nothing if you're shot in the back before your hack can be completed. Remember that the entire enemy team can see an objective is being hacked.

You have some strong biases I see. The logi already has a lot of great things going for it: it gets an extra module slot compared to its assault counterpart (2 module slots in the case of the Caldari logi) allowing for significantly greater HP potential then assaults, has better scanning abilities making it easy for it to spot other medium frames while those medium frames are unable to spot it, Great PG/CPU which is very useful for fitting pototype weapons, you can make lots of war points making you a precision strike generator for your squad, and the ability to carry multiple equipment is a HUGE advantage despite your attempts to make it look like some cursed crappy job like being a "waterboy". You may not want to play support, but with a logi suit you don't really have to; you can play solo and set remote explosives to get a bunch of kills, know the enemy's location with active scanner, and resupply your REs with a nanohive to make more kaboom.

Its hard to take you seriously when you pretend like logis are some weak underpowered suit that need a buff. Saying the logi has "no real usefulness aside from equipment deployment" completely ignores how useful equipment can be to a battle, for example: so many battles have been decided by who has the most drop uplinks. Saying the logi "with no real usefulness aside from equipment deployment" is like saying "assaults have no real usefulness aside from running around and killing things", or that "scouts no real usefulness aside from being fast and stealthy", or "heavies have no real usefulness aside from having lots of HP and getting heavy weapons"; that's the entire point of these suits. Maybe you chose the wrong specialization if you don't want to be defined by carrying equipment.

I also don't see how hacking an objective is support; its the main action which the battle is centered around, a support action is on that helps fulfill that main goal, not an act that itself fulfills the main goal. You can't just lump everything that doesn't involve shooting someone as "support".

I still think you are pushing for this because you don't have a hacking bonus on your suit and are upset about it. I also see this as not fixing any of the issues with a non-bonus bonus. Yes deploying more equipment is great, but this doesn't address the low shield regen rate of the minmatar logi suit or the fact that the cost to deploy in a proto suit is more than 3x the cost of the equivalent meta assault suit due to the increased amount of equipment carried. Yes I carry equipment, if I could carry more I would, but that doesn't mean I feel that the bonus currently on the suit is wrong or not in line with a logi suit bonus. I specifically skilled minmatar for that particular bonus and still have several ranks in hacking because it is still not fast enough for me. Survival of a logi is more important at this point, the hack bonus is the way to go.

I still think you are pushing for this because you don't have a hacking bonus on your suit and are upset about it. I also see this as not fixing any of the issues with a non-bonus bonus. Yes deploying more equipment is great, but this doesn't address the low shield regen rate of the minmatar logi suit or the fact that the cost to deploy in a proto suit is more than 3x the cost of the equivalent meta assault suit due to the increased amount of equipment carried. Yes I carry equipment, if I could carry more I would, but that doesn't mean I feel that the bonus currently on the suit is wrong or not in line with a logi suit bonus. I specifically skilled minmatar for that particular bonus and still have several ranks in hacking because it is still not fast enough for me. Survival of a logi is more important at this point, the hack bonus is the way to go.

As for lumping everything that isn't shooting as "support", which clearly every other action is. We fight until clones are gone or the MCC is. If you can speed up MCC destruction then maybe you don't need to clone the enemy out. Supply ammo and armor is support, so is shooting people. As for Drop uplinks winning matches, yes they can turn the tide but need to have people running in who can push the enemy back rather than lemming up. A drop uplink by itself without that pusher is useless. Your bonuses changing on all suits is sure to cause a lot of requests for respec after the fact. I don't feel your grasp on the subject matter is sufficient to warrant going over all suits racial bonus and spec bonuses with a change on everything.

I have yet to claim the logi as under powered, although I understand how you may get that feeling. I see the capability of a logi to deploy a massive amount of equipment already as it's greatest strength. I don't feel it needs a buff in that aspect and with the higher sig radius, the hacking bonus keeps it balanced for gameplay unlike what a hacking bonus on a scout suit would do.

Yes the whole team on both sides can see an objective being hacked, but that doesn't mean they can see the hacker or catch them after the hack, which balances a lengthy process of counter hacking an objective. The Logi having that bonus is ideal for countering a hack and can save a team many clones simply by holding on to an objective. They supply the defenders, rep the defenders and provide a quick spawn for defenders.

I would hate to have a scout hanging around defending an objective, they are much more useful running around stealthily and killing your uplinks or nanohives and hacking your objective while you are trying to take the one I am protecting. Ideally I would say that it would benefit a scout to have the hack bonus but feel it would be too much on a scout. The hacking bonus of a logi is not at all a non-support bonus. It is the one aspect of the suit that allows it to step up and take the front lines because it is the best at it. Yes, it is a support bonus, and allows the rest of the team to go on killing while the minmatar logi is taking the points. Turning their back to the crowd of reds so that they don't have to.

Oh I see, so you don't like the idea so you're assuming its part of some personal jealous vendetta? Seriously? LOL. I am a logi, and if I wanted a hacking bonus that bad, then I would have just speced into the Minnmatar one, or proposed that every logi has it. That's called a ad hominem, a its logical fallacy (means you're always wrong if you do it), attacking the person instead of the argument; even if what you said is true, it doesn't invalidate my point.
Once again, stop acting like the logi is some weak crappy suit with no advantages, you have more module slot so use it. The Min logi has 1 more low slot than the assault, allowing you to fit a shield regulator, or an armor plate, or something else. I would recommend an armor plate since it would easily surpass the HP of an assault. If hacking isn't fast enough for you, use a codebreaker.
Also, every thoght not every damn equipment you deploy needs to be proto? Also you're just flat out lying, fitting all equipmnt slots with proto equipment is only like 80K max, and the cost of the suit is reduces in other places because the PG/CPU costs mean you have cut PG/CPU in other places.
CCP gives out respecs when there are major skill changes, I will bet you all my ISK that you will get a respec if all this happens.




/me sighs

Gaining control of the null cannon IS the objective in Skirmish and Domination, so hacking the null cannons is an attempt at fulfilling the main objective, not just supporting. All other actions are secondary, thus support.
Just like clone depletion IS the objective in Ambush, so killing is an attempt to fulfill the main objective, and not just support. All other actions (including hacking) is secondary in Ambush, and thus support.

I don't see how it would be too much for scouts, fits them perfectly since they have the ability to get to objectives faster and stealthier than other suits.

It's funny how this is seen as a scout ability and yet scouts can have the same ability too through systems hacking. Go figure...

Wait, so system hacking is now exclusively a scout skill? Seriously dude.

Wait, so system hacking is now exclusively a scout skill? Seriously dude.

No, nothing in this game was meant to have exclusivity. What happened to all the joy in theory crafting to find that extra special, or even unorthodox fitting? The past few months, it's been all about "Assaults are supposed to be slayers, heavies should be doing this, logis are supposed to be pack mules with a repper as their primary weapon...blah, blah, blah." All this forum butthurt is sucking the fun and creativity out of this goddamned game. People should be allowed to make whatever fit they want and play how they want- it's what makes this game different. Saying something should only be exclusive to x, or y shouldn't be doing this is turning this into another cookie cutter FPS.

But if you want to argue specifics, the hacking bonus shouldn't even be Minmatar anyway since they're the worst race when it comes to EWAR.

You may not want to play support, but with a logi suit you don't really have to; you can play solo and set remote explosives to get a bunch of kills, know the enemy's location with active scanner, and resupply your REs with a nanohive to make more kaboom.

I agree with all EXCEPT the Cal Logi bonus. Please tell me how exactly that would affect Drop Uplinks?

It wouldn't, but doesn't have to work on all equipment to be useful in my opinion. I really wish I could make all the bonuses unique and work for all equipment, but that's easier said than don. I'm open to any suggestions you have as long as it fits the intended role of using equipment.

"It's funny how this is seen as Minmatar logi ability and yet logis can have the same ability too through systems hacking. Go figure..."
Could you magine how silly it would be if said that?

Your post about system hacking had nothing to do with any of this stuff you're saying now about unorthodox fittings. NOWHERE did I say logis should only ever be used to support others, in fact I made it a point to say this:


Migrating the Min logi bonus to the Min scout IN NO WAY makes yo unable to make the creative fittings you want; that's what modules are for. The bonus is there to enforce the role, but the fitting freedom allows you to go beyond that role. The whole point of specializing is to be better at a specific thing. Please don't bring other forum drama into this.

It seems I hit a nerve, perhaps it was the "logical fallacy" you claim I made but I was simply asking the question. The current min-logi bonus was originally in response to a previously scout bonus (closed beta I think) that made the scout an almost invisible hacker and it was declared unbalanced and moved to the minmatar logi to still have at least one suit with the bonus. It does fit and you are arguing that I am off attacking someone. KW is free to state his opinion and I have stated mine. I'm am sorry if it came off like I was trolling but consider how many SP a person requires to fit every suit and play every role. If he has the experience to say yes I have played every role and look here's my SP to prove it or look at all these vids I have of me in every suit using them, then I would say he has the experience required, but IMO he does not. Nor is he a CPM or CCP employee who most likely would be able to play every role and experiment with every module of every suit. I have not been discussing assault suits which I have never used or plan on using. I haven't talked about a lack of tank or PG or CPU and I do believe it possible to fill every slot with proto if you have the right skills, just because you can't doesn't mean I can't.

Thank you for your time, glad someone read my post.

Assault bonus: 1% damage

Minmatar bonuses
1. Shield/armor module 2% fitting reduction per level
2. 5% Magazine size increase per level for Minmatar weapons: (Combat Rifle, Precision Rifle, Mass Driver, Flaylock, SMG)

Caldari Bonus
1. 5% Shield Extender Efficacy Per Level
2. 3% Caldari Weapon Reload speed: (Sniper Rifle, Swarm Launcher, Rail Rifle, Rail pistol)

Amarr Bonus
1. 4% Armor Plate Efficacy Per Level
2. 5% Heat build-up reduction per level for laser weapons, Scrambler pistol fire-rate increase of 1% per level.

Yeah, we're going to be bringing the race bonus down onto the basic suits. It's one of a few adjustments to the dropsuit progression we'll be outlining in the next few days. Some adjustments we'll be making very shortly, but others will be a fair bit later.

FORUM DRAMA STARTED THIS!

If people weren't blaming a yellow suit with no sidearm and worse base stats killing them when they have two weapons to use, do you think you'd be making this topic? You think if CCP listened to our feedback on how crazy the CaLogi's bonus was before Uprising even came out, we'd be having this discussion? Everything is relative to the point that you can't discuss one thing without the other.

Tell you what, I'm going to empty my equipment slots and brick out my Minmatar logi with all proto gear and weapons and see how much hate mail I can collect from people telling me how I should play my toon.

"I still think you are pushing for this because you don't have a hacking bonus on your suit and are upset about it" that is what you said to me, it doesn't seem like a question at all, this is an accusation. You are claiming my opinions are just a product of jealousy. Explain to me on what planet stating that you believe I'm pushing for this because I'm upset about it a question.

I have about a dozen alts to experiment and try different suits and weapons, I may not have played on literally every suit, but I do have a good idea of the purpose of each suit. The bonus should reflect the purpose. It doesn't take being an expert at every single racial specialization to know that a logi is about carrying equipment. You can use that equipment however you want, even selfishly, you can choose not to fit more than one equipment and use your suit to make badass slayer fit, and THAT'S FINE, but the role bonus should be based on equipment.

I was in the closed beta, but I still think it belongs on a scout. Scouts are much weaker then thy are now because of hit detection fixes, and the prevalence of active scanners (high tier ones will find scouts). Also the WP for counterhacking that came in 1.5 will incentivize the team who get their stuff hack to stop it instead of just letting it complete.

Hmmm....maybe it could have a more broad skill explanation and decrease the spawn time?

Actually yes, I would still have made this thread. This not about the logi no matter how much you try to make it about them. The skill bonuses are arbitrary without having roles in mind, and they don't make any sense. The Caldari assault has a bonus that belongs on a heavy suit, the Minmatar scout has a bonus to another race's knives and even with the bonus to melee damage it still is weak compared to a medium frame's melee, the sentinel bonus is useless for current heavy weapons without feedback damage & only useful if you're careless enough to overheat. Its a damn mess.

Do you want me to take a picture of my prototype logi to know i'm not some butthurt assault? Seriously, not rhetorical.
Here is a post in which I defend logis from a radical nerfist.
I think logis are not OP at all, I thought they were like 5 months ago actually because of the extra module slot, but the base HP, less shield recharge, less speed, less stamina balances it out in my opinion.

Just because you have an idea doesn't mean you understand their roles or the diversity of good fits that can be made. With my particular suit I normally have all my fitting slots filled in all manner of different roles that you seem to think a Logi should not fill. Get a grip. Don't be mad because I think you are off your rocker, look at what I have told you as an opinion and check things out for yourself, btw Cosgar has a good point about the many different roles that can be filled by any suit, stop trying to pigeon hole me into something that I do or don't do. Go play your desired role of a suit and see if I have a beef about it, hell use my most hated piece of equipment on everyone on your team, the repair tool. I won't tell you that's not what a scout or assault or logi or commando is supposed to do.