|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Cosgar
ParagonX
5458
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 03:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Leave the Minmatar logi racial as is. It fits with the logi/scout hybrid role the suit fills. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
5515
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 19:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Did some changes
Assault bonus: 5% light weapon PG/CPU reduction per lv. Assaults are about offense, weapons should be emphasized. Caldari bonus: 3% range increase of railgun weapons per lv; good for sniper, rail rifle (SoonGäó), & magsec SMG(SoonGäó). Gallente bonus: 1% damage per level of plasma weapons; AR, shotgun, plasma cannon. Minmatar bonus: 5% increase in magazine size per lv for projectile & explosive weapons; SMG, flaylock, MD, & Combat rifle (SoonGäó).
Sentinel bonus: 3% resistance to light weapons per lv; this is to emphasize the defensive nature of sentinels. Am bonus: 2% per lv armor plate + shield extender bonus. Amarr are about HP, and dual tank in Dust (unlike in EVE). Cal bonus: 5% shield recharge rate per lv. I'd probably change the shield recharge rate bonus to shield recharger efficacy and give the bonus to the Minmatar. Minmatar heavy will probably the the squishiest but have a crazy shield regen. Caldari heavy should have the highest shield buffer with a 5% extender bonus.
Again, you should probably try to better generalize logi bonuses for a variety of equipment. The bonuses you have listed would be more fitting for more specialized logistic suit roles in the future. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
5626
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 18:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:That about right? Sounds like these bonuses would fix that somewhat, giving the assault suits the power to be the weapons guys, and the Logis the repair aptitude to be allowed to drop their gun once in a while. Actually, what it does is kills versatility in a role designed for diversity.
I did some thinking on the logistics bonuses and like I mentioned earlier in the topic, the need to be more generalized while being equipment oriented instead of tied down to a single piece of equipment that you're not always going to carry given the circumstances you need to adapt to in a single battle. Also, we're going to get more equipment at some point and for a class meant to use equipment, shouldn't their bonuses affect as much of it as possible?
Gallente: +5% to equipment range per level. Instead of being tied to one thing, you get a bonus that can affect the effective range of nanohives, reppers, the active scanner, the blast radius for REs/Mines and can fit with other equipment we might get later like target painters, bubble shields, webifiers... etc.
Amarr: +5% to armor repair module efficacy per level. Honestly, there's really nothing wrong with the Amarr bonus. It fits with the suit as an assault/logi hybrid and since it affects armor repair on a suit that only gets 4 low slots at prototype it's not overpowering. The only change I would make is to extend that bonus to reactive plates as well to add more flexability to the suit's armor tanking options.
Caldari: -5% to equipment cooldown per level. Similar to the Gallete, this would affect a broader range of equipment instead of one thing, but just like the Gallente, focus on reusable equipment. This would apply to the active scanner, but later down the road any and all equipment that would have a cooldown like anything EWAR related.
Before I go into the Minmatar bonus, I still don't see what the issue is for a suit bonus that only works in 2/3 of the game's available modes. I'd rather keep the hacking bonus since it's what everyone wants logistics to be- non combat oriented. But if the bonus has to go, I'd suggest something like this.
Minmatar: +5% to deployed equipment carried per level. At max level this would affect how many nanohives, uplinks, and later on bubble shields, proximity scanners, decoys, or any other deployed equipment that would come into the game. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
5646
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 11:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Stile451 wrote:The Minmatar would need to be changed to a higher percentage to prevent it from being a dead skill - at least 10% per level(25% of 2 is less than 3). Everything should round up.
|
Cosgar
ParagonX
5650
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 19:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'd still rather keep the hacking bonus though. I practically built my skirmish fittings around it and it's a non-combat skill for crying out loud... |
Cosgar
ParagonX
5653
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 23:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cosgar wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:That about right? Sounds like these bonuses would fix that somewhat, giving the assault suits the power to be the weapons guys, and the Logis the repair aptitude to be allowed to drop their gun once in a while. Actually, what it does is kills versatility in a role designed for diversity. I did some thinking on the logistics bonuses and like I mentioned earlier in the topic, the need to be more generalized while being equipment oriented instead of tied down to a single piece of equipment that you're not always going to carry given the circumstances you need to adapt to in a single battle. Also, we're going to get more equipment at some point and for a class meant to use equipment, shouldn't their bonuses affect as much of it as possible? Gallente: +5% to equipment range per level. Instead of being tied to one thing, you get a bonus that can affect the effective range of nanohives, reppers, the active scanner, the blast radius for REs/Mines and can fit with other equipment we might get later like target painters, bubble shields, webifiers... etc. Amarr: +5% to armor repair module efficacy per level. Honestly, there's really nothing wrong with the Amarr bonus. It fits with the suit as an assault/logi hybrid and since it affects armor repair on a suit that only gets 4 low slots at prototype it's not overpowering. The only change I would make is to extend that bonus to reactive plates as well to add more flexability to the suit's armor tanking options. Caldari: -5% to equipment cooldown per level. Similar to the Gallete, this would affect a broader range of equipment instead of one thing, but just like the Gallente, focus on reusable equipment. This would apply to the active scanner, but later down the road any and all equipment that would have a cooldown like anything EWAR related. Before I go into the Minmatar bonus, I still don't see what the issue is for a suit bonus that only works in 2/3 of the game's available modes. I'd rather keep the hacking bonus since it's what everyone wants logistics to be- non combat oriented. But if the bonus has to go, I'd suggest something like this. Minmatar: +5% to deployed equipment carried per level. At max level this would affect how many nanohives, uplinks, and later on bubble shields, proximity scanners, decoys, or any other deployed equipment that would come into the game. I'm open to ideas as long as they fit with the logi's focus on equipment. I do like where you're going with this, but there are some issues with what you propose. The cooldown reduction bonus would be only useful for active scanner until other equipment with cooldown comes, and we don't even know if EWAR stuff will be deployable or cooldown based. I don't want a bonus based on the assumption of how a future piece of equipment might work. 5% (25% max) units carried bonus would be useless to many deployable equipment, since 25% of the maximum carried for many is still less than one. Though I suppose anything 0.5 or higher can be rounded up to to 1. EDIT: Nevermind, I see you said elsewhere that it should round up. The Amarr logi bonus I'm fine with your idea or my idea. EDIT: Regarding the current Minmatar logi bonus, its not so much that its an issue, its just that it doesn't really fit with the logi's emphasis on equipment, and it would work MUCH better on the Minmatar scout. The current scout's melee damage even with maxed out melee bonus is still weak compared to a medium frame's melee, and a bonus to another race's knives doesn't make sense; even if its changed to a bonus for the Minmatar knives when they come out, it will still be weird that only one race's suit gets a bonus to their knives. The fastest scout having the hacking speed bonus would make the most sense to me. If these changes come, there would have to be an SP refund, so you could rethink your role and specializations if you need to. Those ideas weren't etched in stone, just something to show you the kind of flexibility the bonuses need. Bonuses to specific pieces of equipment is the ultimate dud a lot of logistics players are dreading. For example, I'm a Minmatar logi and I rarely use my repper and focus more on triage hives. A repair tool bonus would be as useful for me as a screen door on a submarine. Also, I was thinking ahead on the different types of equipment we may eventually be getting in hopes that when the bonuses do change we'll have more gear to show for it as well.
The hacking bonus actually is pretty in line with the logi suit when you think about it. All the Minmatar suits are built for guerrilla hit and run tactics. Assaults make great flankers, scouts (used to) make great alpha damage assassins, and the logi is an excellent infiltrator and trapper. The heavy will most likely wind up having the lowest EHP, but the highest shield recharge rate, lowest delay and most mobility. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
5653
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 00:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:There is a problem most of you are willfully ignoring on the subject of Logis. They are not designed to be equipment mules, they just happen to be thrust into that role via bad foresight. If anything, Scouts are better suited to use Equipment. Logistics just make a good equipment mule due to their high number of slots and high fitting, similar to what makes them as good at killing as Assaults. These bonuses are meant to cinch up each suit's roles and to give each class of suits the roles they were envisioned to have.
Imagine that the game is TF2 for a moment. Logi is Medic, but can also equip Engineer's wrench and build stuff. Due to Medic's greater speed, HP, and regen, people will always choose Medic over Engie. There is also the fact that in this little universe, Engie does not exist, so they feel that choosing Medic to Engineer is normal.
That is the state of DUST. there is no Engineer role suit, so the Logistics suit is filling in for it. When they get around to fixing the role bonus problems, they will make the Logistics suits actually focus on Logistics, which is EVE slang for Healing. They will then make a new suit for the other Equipment, like the some of the Type-2 suits used to be.
Therefore, I feel that we should make a new class of suits in the OP. The Engineer class.
Minmatar will get bonuses to Remote Explosives due to their speed and lower, but not lowest, scan profile. This may cover all the explosives, like proximity. Amarr will get bonuses to the Drop Uplink, as they are the slower and tankier ones they will be the ones most familiar with advantageous terrain. Gallente would hopefully get drones. Sentry drones for point defense, small drones for personal mobile support, etc. Or, they can get the Active Scanner and Point Defense Drones while GalLogi gets bonuses to repair drones. Caldari, I'm honestly not too sure on. I'm not a major Caldari in any verse, but maybe... Webbifiers? interdiction bubbles? EWAR? Should another suit entirely be EWAR? Help me out here.
EDIT: Make shield repper. Give CalLogi bonus to Shield Repper. Give CalEngie bonus to Nanohives. Boom. From a TF perspective: Scout = Scout and Spy Heavy = Pyro, Heavy, and Soldier Logi = Engineer, Demoman, and Medic Assault = Soldier |
Cosgar
ParagonX
5766
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 04:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Commando should've been a light frame... |
Cosgar
ParagonX
5766
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 04:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
hackerzilla wrote:I agree w/ all except min logi's bonus is kinda ****** because most equipment don't get a bonus for this. Also the ammar scout's bonus kinda seems too niche and not versatile enough. I'd say keep the hacking bonus anyway. Probably the best non-combat bonus in the game and it's been a staple of the Minmatar suit since its inception. Only difference is it got buffed and became a listed bonus in uprising. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
5766
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 04:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cosgar wrote:hackerzilla wrote:I agree w/ all except min logi's bonus is kinda ****** because most equipment don't get a bonus for this. Also the ammar scout's bonus kinda seems too niche and not versatile enough. I'd say keep the hacking bonus anyway. Probably the best non-combat bonus in the game and it's been a staple of the Minmatar suit since its inception. Only difference is it got buffed and became a listed bonus in uprising. If the Min logi kept the hacking bonus, what would the Min scout get? The current Min scout bonus sucks for practical and lore reasons I already explained. Maybe biotic module efficacy? Biotics works. I've always seen the Minmatar scout as the true combat scout. Maybe a fitting reduction bonus. |
|
Cosgar
ParagonX
5767
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 10:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Hacking bonus is still too scouty for a logi IMO. .......... |
Cosgar
ParagonX
5970
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 22:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
Is it just me or is this topic just another nerf logi campaign? |
Cosgar
ParagonX
5973
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 01:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cosgar wrote:Is it just me or is this topic just another nerf logi campaign? Not everything is about logis. I covered 5 specializations. Maybe you're just too defensive to see how silly and completely arbitrary the current bonuses are. Bonuses should emphasize the role of the suit. If you want a logi to have a bonus best suited for something else, then perhaps you should be playing as that something else instead. I listened to your complaints, and made bonuses more generalized instead of being for 1 specific equipment. Indeed. Logistics ships in EVE have massive bonuses to Logistics role modules 1000% to 2000% bonuses to effectiveness of Shield Transporters, Armour Reppers, etc. Logis should be high EHP, low damage, variable frames. They should not have the capacity to run Assault better than Assault can. How come everyone that says a logi is a better assault never backs that up with anything mathematical? How come nobody ever realized it was one suit (Caldari) that was this uber assault people talked about? How come a hacking bonus is somehow not logi enough? I specced into Minmatar logi over the Gallente for the versatility in slot layout and the hacking bonus. Find me someone that says the hacking bonus killed them, and maybe I'll change my mind, but in the meantime, you're just attacking something people invested SP into. Make sure you think about that before shifting bonuses around. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
5973
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 01:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cosgar wrote:True Adamance wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cosgar wrote:Is it just me or is this topic just another nerf logi campaign? Not everything is about logis. I covered 5 specializations. Maybe you're just too defensive to see how silly and completely arbitrary the current bonuses are. Bonuses should emphasize the role of the suit. If you want a logi to have a bonus best suited for something else, then perhaps you should be playing as that something else instead. I listened to your complaints, and made bonuses more generalized instead of being for 1 specific equipment. Indeed. Logistics ships in EVE have massive bonuses to Logistics role modules 1000% to 2000% bonuses to effectiveness of Shield Transporters, Armour Reppers, etc. Logis should be high EHP, low damage, variable frames. They should not have the capacity to run Assault better than Assault can. How come everyone that says a logi is a better assault never backs that up with anything mathematical? How come nobody ever realized it was one suit (Caldari) that was this uber assault people talked about? How come a hacking bonus is somehow not logi enough? I specced into Minmatar logi over the Gallente for the versatility in slot layout and the hacking bonus. Find me someone that says the hacking bonus killed them, and maybe I'll change my mind, but in the meantime, you're just attacking something people invested SP into. Make sure you think about that before shifting bonuses around. Hacking bonus is not logi enough because it has nothing to do with equipment; which is the whole point of logis (carry equipment to support, or to whatever). That's pretty simple. I don't really think logis are better for assaulting except the Cal logi (more high slots for more damage mods), but I don't think the logi bonuses really fit either. And again, you're just one person saying the hacking bonus isn't "logi enough." We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. If I do lose my bonus that I invested my time and SP playing this game into, expect for me to change my opinion on respecs. I'm just glad this is up to CCP. (Player input be damned sometimes) |
Cosgar
ParagonX
6075
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 23:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
It's funny how this is seen as a scout ability and yet scouts can have the same ability too through systems hacking. Go figure... |
Cosgar
ParagonX
6076
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 00:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cosgar wrote:It's funny how this is seen as a scout ability and yet scouts can have the same ability too through systems hacking. Go figure... Wait, so system hacking is now exclusively a scout skill? Seriously dude.
No, nothing in this game was meant to have exclusivity. What happened to all the joy in theory crafting to find that extra special, or even unorthodox fitting? The past few months, it's been all about "Assaults are supposed to be slayers, heavies should be doing this, logis are supposed to be pack mules with a repper as their primary weapon...blah, blah, blah." All this forum butthurt is sucking the fun and creativity out of this goddamned game. People should be allowed to make whatever fit they want and play how they want- it's what makes this game different. Saying something should only be exclusive to x, or y shouldn't be doing this is turning this into another cookie cutter FPS.
But if you want to argue specifics, the hacking bonus shouldn't even be Minmatar anyway since they're the worst race when it comes to EWAR. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
6078
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 00:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cosgar wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cosgar wrote:It's funny how this is seen as a scout ability and yet scouts can have the same ability too through systems hacking. Go figure... Wait, so system hacking is now exclusively a scout skill? Seriously dude. No, nothing in this game was meant to have exclusivity. What happened to all the joy in theory crafting to find that extra special, or even unorthodox fitting? The past few months, it's been all about "Assaults are supposed to be slayers, heavies should be doing this, logis are supposed to be pack mules with a repper as their primary weapon...blah, blah, blah." All this forum butthurt is sucking the fun and creativity out of this goddamned game. People should be allowed to make whatever fit they want and play how they want- it's what makes this game different. Saying something should only be exclusive to x, or y shouldn't be doing this is turning this into another cookie cutter FPS. But if you want to argue specifics, the hacking bonus shouldn't even be Minmatar anyway since they're the worst race when it comes to EWAR. "It's funny how this is seen as Minmatar logi ability and yet logis can have the same ability too through systems hacking. Go figure..." Could you magine how silly it would be if said that? Your post about system hacking had nothing to do with any of this stuff you're saying now about unorthodox fittings. NOWHERE did I say logis should only ever be used to support others, in fact I made it a point to say this: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:You may not want to play support, but with a logi suit you don't really have to; you can play solo and set remote explosives to get a bunch of kills, know the enemy's location with active scanner, and resupply your REs with a nanohive to make more kaboom.
Migrating the Min logi bonus to the Min scout IN NO WAY makes yo unable to make the creative fittings you want; that's what modules are for. The bonus is there to enforce the role, but the fitting freedom allows you to go beyond that role. The whole point of specializing is to be better at a specific thing. Please don't bring other forum drama into this. FORUM DRAMA STARTED THIS!
If people weren't blaming a yellow suit with no sidearm and worse base stats killing them when they have two weapons to use, do you think you'd be making this topic? You think if CCP listened to our feedback on how crazy the CaLogi's bonus was before Uprising even came out, we'd be having this discussion? Everything is relative to the point that you can't discuss one thing without the other.
Tell you what, I'm going to empty my equipment slots and brick out my Minmatar logi with all proto gear and weapons and see how much hate mail I can collect from people telling me how I should play my toon. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
6083
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 01:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cosgar wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cosgar wrote:
No, nothing in this game was meant to have exclusivity. What happened to all the joy in theory crafting to find that extra special, or even unorthodox fitting? The past few months, it's been all about "Assaults are supposed to be slayers, heavies should be doing this, logis are supposed to be pack mules with a repper as their primary weapon...blah, blah, blah." All this forum butthurt is sucking the fun and creativity out of this goddamned game. People should be allowed to make whatever fit they want and play how they want- it's what makes this game different. Saying something should only be exclusive to x, or y shouldn't be doing this is turning this into another cookie cutter FPS.
But if you want to argue specifics, the hacking bonus shouldn't even be Minmatar anyway since they're the worst race when it comes to EWAR.
"It's funny how this is seen as Minmatar logi ability and yet logis can have the same ability too through systems hacking. Go figure..." Could you magine how silly it would be if said that? Your post about system hacking had nothing to do with any of this stuff you're saying now about unorthodox fittings. NOWHERE did I say logis should only ever be used to support others, in fact I made it a point to say this: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:You may not want to play support, but with a logi suit you don't really have to; you can play solo and set remote explosives to get a bunch of kills, know the enemy's location with active scanner, and resupply your REs with a nanohive to make more kaboom.
Migrating the Min logi bonus to the Min scout IN NO WAY makes yo unable to make the creative fittings you want; that's what modules are for. The bonus is there to enforce the role, but the fitting freedom allows you to go beyond that role. The whole point of specializing is to be better at a specific thing. Please don't bring other forum drama into this. FORUM DRAMA STARTED THIS!If people weren't blaming a yellow suit with no sidearm and worse base stats killing them when they have two weapons to use, do you think you'd be making this topic? You think if CCP listened to our feedback on how crazy the CaLogi's bonus was before Uprising even came out, we'd be having this discussion? Everything is relative to the point that you can't discuss one thing without the other. Tell you what, I'm going to empty my equipment slots and brick out my Minmatar logi with all proto gear and weapons and see how much hate mail I can collect from people telling me how I should play my toon. Actually yes, I would still have made this thread. This not about the logi no matter how much you try to make it about them. The skill bonuses are arbitrary without having roles in mind, and they don't make any sense. The Caldari assault has a bonus that belongs on a heavy suit, the Minmatar scout has a bonus to another race's knives and even with the bonus to melee damage it still is weak compared to a medium frame's melee, the sentinel bonus is useless for current heavy weapons without feedback damage & only useful if you're careless enough to overheat. Its a damn mess. Do you want me to take a picture of my prototype logi to know i'm not some butthurt assault? Seriously, not rhetorical. Here is a post in which I defend logis from a radical nerfist. I think logis are not OP at all, I thought they were like 5 months ago actually because of the extra module slot, but the base HP, less shield recharge, less speed, less stamina balances it out in my opinion. I know you're not a butthurt assault, I never said you were. Hell, I've even seen you in other topics defending just about every niche class in this game. I like your ideas, but I'm disagreeing with this one, not because it's about logis, but because you're trying to fix something that isn't broken on the one racial suit CCP actually did manage to get right. There's a lot of placeholder skills, weapons, and mechanics right now anyway to tell what they're going to with bonuses. It's probably better to agree to disagree for now. Just take some consideration in what should stay over what needs to be changed. For example, your new bonuses is a giant nerf to Amarr logi, which after a threadnaut managed to get buffed. |
|
|
|