Oh I see, so you don't like the idea so you're assuming its part of some personal jealous vendetta? Seriously? LOL. I am a logi, and if I wanted a hacking bonus that bad, then I would have just speced into the Minnmatar one, or proposed that every logi has it. That's called a ad hominem, a its logical fallacy (means you're always wrong if you do it), attacking the person instead of the argument; even if what you said is true, it doesn't invalidate my point.
Once again, stop acting like the logi is some weak crappy suit with no advantages, you have more module slot so use it. The Min logi has 1 more low slot than the assault, allowing you to fit a shield regulator, or an armor plate, or something else. I would recommend an armor plate since it would easily surpass the HP of an assault. If hacking isn't fast enough for you, use a codebreaker.
Also, every thoght not every damn equipment you deploy needs to be proto? Also you're just flat out lying, fitting all equipmnt slots with proto equipment is only like 80K max, and the cost of the suit is reduces in other places because the PG/CPU costs mean you have cut PG/CPU in other places.
CCP gives out respecs when there are major skill changes, I will bet you all my ISK that you will get a respec if all this happens.




/me sighs

Gaining control of the null cannon IS the objective in Skirmish and Domination, so hacking the null cannons is an attempt at fulfilling the main objective, not just supporting. All other actions are secondary, thus support.
Just like clone depletion IS the objective in Ambush, so killing is an attempt to fulfill the main objective, and not just support. All other actions (including hacking) is secondary in Ambush, and thus support.

I don't see how it would be too much for scouts, fits them perfectly since they have the ability to get to objectives faster and stealthier than other suits.

It's funny how this is seen as a scout ability and yet scouts can have the same ability too through systems hacking. Go figure...

Wait, so system hacking is now exclusively a scout skill? Seriously dude.

Wait, so system hacking is now exclusively a scout skill? Seriously dude.

No, nothing in this game was meant to have exclusivity. What happened to all the joy in theory crafting to find that extra special, or even unorthodox fitting? The past few months, it's been all about "Assaults are supposed to be slayers, heavies should be doing this, logis are supposed to be pack mules with a repper as their primary weapon...blah, blah, blah." All this forum butthurt is sucking the fun and creativity out of this goddamned game. People should be allowed to make whatever fit they want and play how they want- it's what makes this game different. Saying something should only be exclusive to x, or y shouldn't be doing this is turning this into another cookie cutter FPS.

But if you want to argue specifics, the hacking bonus shouldn't even be Minmatar anyway since they're the worst race when it comes to EWAR.

You may not want to play support, but with a logi suit you don't really have to; you can play solo and set remote explosives to get a bunch of kills, know the enemy's location with active scanner, and resupply your REs with a nanohive to make more kaboom.

I agree with all EXCEPT the Cal Logi bonus. Please tell me how exactly that would affect Drop Uplinks?

It wouldn't, but doesn't have to work on all equipment to be useful in my opinion. I really wish I could make all the bonuses unique and work for all equipment, but that's easier said than don. I'm open to any suggestions you have as long as it fits the intended role of using equipment.

"It's funny how this is seen as Minmatar logi ability and yet logis can have the same ability too through systems hacking. Go figure..."
Could you magine how silly it would be if said that?

Your post about system hacking had nothing to do with any of this stuff you're saying now about unorthodox fittings. NOWHERE did I say logis should only ever be used to support others, in fact I made it a point to say this:


Migrating the Min logi bonus to the Min scout IN NO WAY makes yo unable to make the creative fittings you want; that's what modules are for. The bonus is there to enforce the role, but the fitting freedom allows you to go beyond that role. The whole point of specializing is to be better at a specific thing. Please don't bring other forum drama into this.

It seems I hit a nerve, perhaps it was the "logical fallacy" you claim I made but I was simply asking the question. The current min-logi bonus was originally in response to a previously scout bonus (closed beta I think) that made the scout an almost invisible hacker and it was declared unbalanced and moved to the minmatar logi to still have at least one suit with the bonus. It does fit and you are arguing that I am off attacking someone. KW is free to state his opinion and I have stated mine. I'm am sorry if it came off like I was trolling but consider how many SP a person requires to fit every suit and play every role. If he has the experience to say yes I have played every role and look here's my SP to prove it or look at all these vids I have of me in every suit using them, then I would say he has the experience required, but IMO he does not. Nor is he a CPM or CCP employee who most likely would be able to play every role and experiment with every module of every suit. I have not been discussing assault suits which I have never used or plan on using. I haven't talked about a lack of tank or PG or CPU and I do believe it possible to fill every slot with proto if you have the right skills, just because you can't doesn't mean I can't.

Thank you for your time, glad someone read my post.

Assault bonus: 1% damage

Minmatar bonuses
1. Shield/armor module 2% fitting reduction per level
2. 5% Magazine size increase per level for Minmatar weapons: (Combat Rifle, Precision Rifle, Mass Driver, Flaylock, SMG)

Caldari Bonus
1. 5% Shield Extender Efficacy Per Level
2. 3% Caldari Weapon Reload speed: (Sniper Rifle, Swarm Launcher, Rail Rifle, Rail pistol)

Amarr Bonus
1. 4% Armor Plate Efficacy Per Level
2. 5% Heat build-up reduction per level for laser weapons, Scrambler pistol fire-rate increase of 1% per level.

Yeah, we're going to be bringing the race bonus down onto the basic suits. It's one of a few adjustments to the dropsuit progression we'll be outlining in the next few days. Some adjustments we'll be making very shortly, but others will be a fair bit later.

FORUM DRAMA STARTED THIS!

If people weren't blaming a yellow suit with no sidearm and worse base stats killing them when they have two weapons to use, do you think you'd be making this topic? You think if CCP listened to our feedback on how crazy the CaLogi's bonus was before Uprising even came out, we'd be having this discussion? Everything is relative to the point that you can't discuss one thing without the other.

Tell you what, I'm going to empty my equipment slots and brick out my Minmatar logi with all proto gear and weapons and see how much hate mail I can collect from people telling me how I should play my toon.

"I still think you are pushing for this because you don't have a hacking bonus on your suit and are upset about it" that is what you said to me, it doesn't seem like a question at all, this is an accusation. You are claiming my opinions are just a product of jealousy. Explain to me on what planet stating that you believe I'm pushing for this because I'm upset about it a question.

I have about a dozen alts to experiment and try different suits and weapons, I may not have played on literally every suit, but I do have a good idea of the purpose of each suit. The bonus should reflect the purpose. It doesn't take being an expert at every single racial specialization to know that a logi is about carrying equipment. You can use that equipment however you want, even selfishly, you can choose not to fit more than one equipment and use your suit to make badass slayer fit, and THAT'S FINE, but the role bonus should be based on equipment.

I was in the closed beta, but I still think it belongs on a scout. Scouts are much weaker then thy are now because of hit detection fixes, and the prevalence of active scanners (high tier ones will find scouts). Also the WP for counterhacking that came in 1.5 will incentivize the team who get their stuff hack to stop it instead of just letting it complete.

Hmmm....maybe it could have a more broad skill explanation and decrease the spawn time?

Actually yes, I would still have made this thread. This not about the logi no matter how much you try to make it about them. The skill bonuses are arbitrary without having roles in mind, and they don't make any sense. The Caldari assault has a bonus that belongs on a heavy suit, the Minmatar scout has a bonus to another race's knives and even with the bonus to melee damage it still is weak compared to a medium frame's melee, the sentinel bonus is useless for current heavy weapons without feedback damage & only useful if you're careless enough to overheat. Its a damn mess.

Do you want me to take a picture of my prototype logi to know i'm not some butthurt assault? Seriously, not rhetorical.
Here is a post in which I defend logis from a radical nerfist.
I think logis are not OP at all, I thought they were like 5 months ago actually because of the extra module slot, but the base HP, less shield recharge, less speed, less stamina balances it out in my opinion.

Just because you have an idea doesn't mean you understand their roles or the diversity of good fits that can be made. With my particular suit I normally have all my fitting slots filled in all manner of different roles that you seem to think a Logi should not fill. Get a grip. Don't be mad because I think you are off your rocker, look at what I have told you as an opinion and check things out for yourself, btw Cosgar has a good point about the many different roles that can be filled by any suit, stop trying to pigeon hole me into something that I do or don't do. Go play your desired role of a suit and see if I have a beef about it, hell use my most hated piece of equipment on everyone on your team, the repair tool. I won't tell you that's not what a scout or assault or logi or commando is supposed to do.

So, I recently made a trial EVE account.

I found it interesting that they do the a double bonus for ship type, and then give a separate role bonus when you specialize later.

It reminded me of CCP Remnant's post on suit bonuses back in May where he said they had various changes slated included moving bonuses over to basic suits. That was never expanded on at the time, and hasn't really come up since (you always get the impression the changes are coming soon).

Earlier, I suggested that they should use dual bonuses to make the bonuses more interesting:



..or whatever

Looking at it again, that's actually really similar to how it works in EVE apparently. An Amarr IceCream-Truck skill gets at least two bonuses, like 5% to freezing & 2% to neon signage per level, then a separate role bonus is applied to a variant of that same item (Popsicle Truck) and it still gets a bonus from the Icecream-Truck skill, but it gets the +3% Popsicle storage bonus for the role.

Since Remnant was talking about moving bonuses over to basic suits, maybe he was talking about doing an EVE copy there?

In that scenario we'd have something like:

Amarr Medium Dropsuits:
5% Armor Plate Efficacy Per Level and 5% Heat build-up reduction per level for laser weapons, Scrambler pistol fire-rate increase of 1% per level
Amarr Assault Dropsuits:
1% damage per level
Amarr Logistics Dropsuits:
etc.


Or, to rework using KAGEHOSHI's examples:

Amarr Medium Dropsuits:
5% heat buildup reduction per lv for laser weaponry, 1 armor repair HP/s per lv
Amarr Assault Dropsuit:
1% damage per level of light weapons
Amarr Logistics Dropsuit:
5% reduction of PG/CPU of equipment per lv

So at max rank of all those skills:
Am. Assault: 25% heat reduction, 5 hp/s armor, and 5% to light dmg
Am. Logistics: 25% heat reduction, 5 hp/s armor, and 25% to equip fitting
Am. Medium frame: 25% heat reduction, 5 hp/s armor

or a KAGEHOSHI Min-set:

Min. Assault: 25% projectile and explosive weapon bonus, 150% more equipment/supply carried, and 5% to light dmg
Min. Logistics: 25% projectile and explosive weapon bonus, 150% more equipment/supply carried, and 25% to equip fitting
Min. Medium frame: 25% projectile and explosive weapon bonus, 150% more equipment/supply carried

Of course, I don't think he wrote them with them being used this way in mind. In either case, it creates a very similar situation to EVE (which actually has a similar "get to rank 3, and move along if you want" approach to the ships too). Though it's worth mention that EVE will alter the two bonuses you get for having ranks in the "basic" skill on the special variants. I didn't bother doing that, though CCP could certainly do it that way too:

e.g.:
Amarr Assault Suit:
1. 5% bonus to heat buildup and 1hp/s armor repair PER rank in Amarr Medium Frames
2. 1% light wep damage PER rank in Amarr Assault Suits

The bonus given per rank of Medium frames could vary depending on the suit (that would be more EVE accurate, though not strictly speaking necessary). In that scenario, you'd possibly get different pair of bonuses for "Medium frames" on the Basic, Assault, and Logistics suits.

You would want to continue leveling the medium suit skill to get all the bonuses for it in the other suit, otherwise your logi/assault specs would only partially benefit from the racial bonus to the suit type (it becomes a much more "core" skill that's must-have, and the role bonus skill becomes more diminishing return-like). However the player more interested in advancing into a role quickly could do so.

It also solves the problem of having a suit skill (the "basic" frames) that don't have any passives or do anything.

It's a different way of conceiving of the skills, and you effectively have to think of two bonuses that are racially appropriate. Or, you could also say it's just copying EVE's system to a degree (not-so-new).

Anyhow, I think that's what Remnant was suggesting at the time, if them moving towards that sort of scheme changes what you'd want the bonuses to be:

- CCP Remnant

So, I recently made a trial EVE account.

I found it interesting that they do the a double bonus for ship type, and then give a separate role bonus when you specialize later.

It reminded me of CCP Remnant's post on suit bonuses back in May where he said they had various changes slated included moving bonuses over to basic suits. That was never expanded on at the time, and hasn't really come up since (you always get the impression the changes are coming soon).

Earlier, I suggested that they should use dual bonuses to make the bonuses more interesting:



..or whatever

Looking at it again, that's actually really similar to how it works in EVE apparently. An Amarr IceCream-Truck skill gets at least two bonuses, like 5% to freezing & 2% to neon signage per level, then a separate role bonus is applied to a variant of that same item (Popsicle Truck) and it still gets a bonus from the Icecream-Truck skill, but it gets the +3% Popsicle storage bonus for the role.

Since Remnant was talking about moving bonuses over to basic suits, maybe he was talking about doing an EVE copy there?

In that scenario we'd have something like:

Amarr Medium Dropsuits:
5% Armor Plate Efficacy Per Level and 5% Heat build-up reduction per level for laser weapons, Scrambler pistol fire-rate increase of 1% per level
Amarr Assault Dropsuits:
1% damage per level
Amarr Logistics Dropsuits:
etc.


Or, to rework using KAGEHOSHI's examples:

Amarr Medium Dropsuits:
5% heat buildup reduction per lv for laser weaponry, 1 armor repair HP/s per lv
Amarr Assault Dropsuit:
1% damage per level of light weapons
Amarr Logistics Dropsuit:
5% reduction of PG/CPU of equipment per lv

So at max rank of all those skills:
Am. Assault: 25% heat reduction, 5 hp/s armor, and 5% to light dmg
Am. Logistics: 25% heat reduction, 5 hp/s armor, and 25% to equip fitting
Am. Medium frame: 25% heat reduction, 5 hp/s armor

or a KAGEHOSHI Min-set:

Min. Assault: 25% projectile and explosive weapon bonus, 150% more equipment/supply carried, and 5% to light dmg
Min. Logistics: 25% projectile and explosive weapon bonus, 150% more equipment/supply carried, and 25% to equip fitting
Min. Medium frame: 25% projectile and explosive weapon bonus, 150% more equipment/supply carried

Of course, I don't think he wrote them with them being used this way in mind. In either case, it creates a very similar situation to EVE (which actually has a similar "get to rank 3, and move along if you want" approach to the ships too). Though it's worth mention that EVE will alter the two bonuses you get for having ranks in the "basic" skill on the special variants. I didn't bother doing that, though CCP could certainly do it that way too:

e.g.:
Amarr Assault Suit:
1. 5% bonus to heat buildup and 1hp/s armor repair PER rank in Amarr Medium Frames
2. 1% light wep damage PER rank in Amarr Assault Suits

The bonus given per rank of Medium frames could vary depending on the suit (that would be more EVE accurate, though not strictly speaking necessary). In that scenario, you'd possibly get different pair of bonuses for "Medium frames" on the Basic, Assault, and Logistics suits.

You would want to continue leveling the medium suit skill to get all the bonuses for it in the other suit, otherwise your logi/assault specs would only partially benefit from the racial bonus to the suit type (it becomes a much more "core" skill that's must-have, and the role bonus skill becomes more diminishing return-like). However the player more interested in advancing into a role quickly could do so.

It also solves the problem of having a suit skill (the "basic" frames) that don't have any passives or do anything.

It's a different way of conceiving of the skills, and you effectively have to think of two bonuses that are racially appropriate. Or, you could also say it's just copying EVE's system to a degree (not-so-new).

Anyhow, I think that's what Remnant was suggesting at the time, if them moving towards that sort of scheme changes what you'd want the bonuses to be:

- CCP Remnant

Caldari Med:
4% Shield Extender Efficacy lvl, 3% Rail/Swarm Tech reload per lvl.
Assault Role: 1% light dmg per level
Logistics Role: 5% equipment fitting per level

However, instead of these being descriptions on the skills, a Caldari assault suit would actually say in its description:
4% Shield Extender Efficacy and 3% Rail/Swarm Tech reload per rank of Caldari Medium Frame Dropsuits

1% Light Weapon damage per rank of Caldari Assault Dropsuits


So:
Caldari Med:
4% Shield Extender Efficacy and 3% Rail/Swarm Tech reload speed per rank in Caldari Medium Frame Dropsuits.

That could still be the listed bonus on the Medium Frame Suit. However, the specialized suits could change like so:
Caldari Logistics:
5% range of equipment and 3% Rail/Swarm tech reload per rank of Caldari Medium Frame Dropsuits

5% Bonus to Equipment fitting per rank of Caldari Logistics Dropsuits

Caldari Assault:
4% Shield Extender Efficacy and 2% Rail Weapon Fire rate increase per rank of Caldari Medium Frame Dropsuits

1% Light Weapon damage per rank of Caldari Assault Dropsuits

D&D? Try again chief.

But wait, did you just seriously try to say that Dust isn't meant to have defined roles? Have you payed attention to anything CCP has said like, ever?


Edit: In case you don't believe me, here's some relevant snippets from this dev blog

Logistics mean healers. What we have here is a lack of a role for utilitarian equipment users, so they have meshed it with Logistics for the time being. The Logistics role will eventually focus on the White Mage 'skillset' in an MMO, of that I have unwavering faith. It is you who doesn't understand what a Logistics class is meant to do, and I shall have an Amarr RPer recite a prayer for you, for you know not what you do.

Logistics, while including health care, is more concerned with moving troops, supplies, and equipment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_logistics

Which prayer would you care for me to recite?

To Stile, I know what the term means in dictionary terms, but Logistics is the EVE term for the repairing units that prevent financial loss. If we used the dictionary term for Logistics, then all LAVs, Dropships, and anything that can carry equipment would all count as a 'Logistics' role.

For Father Adamance, I'm not familiar with your scriptures so cherry pick a good one.

To Stile, I know what the term means in dictionary terms, but Logistics is the EVE term for the repairing units that prevent financial loss. If we used the dictionary term for Logistics, then all LAVs, Dropships, and anything that can carry equipment would all count as a 'Logistics' role.