Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
3921
   |
Posted - 2013.10.15 21:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
DJINN Jecture wrote:
I still think you are pushing for this because you don't have a hacking bonus on your suit and are upset about it. I also see this as not fixing any of the issues with a non-bonus bonus. Yes deploying more equipment is great, but this doesn't address the low shield regen rate of the minmatar logi suit or the fact that the cost to deploy in a proto suit is more than 3x the cost of the equivalent meta assault suit due to the increased amount of equipment carried. Yes I carry equipment, if I could carry more I would, but that doesn't mean I feel that the bonus currently on the suit is wrong or not in line with a logi suit bonus. I specifically skilled minmatar for that particular bonus and still have several ranks in hacking because it is still not fast enough for me. Survival of a logi is more important at this point, the hack bonus is the way to go.
I don't think KAGEHOSHI is suggesting this bonus because he's jealous of it. Does the current bonus really fit the Logistics role? The support role, the healer? It makes far more sense to have such a bonus on a scout, for example.
All of the logistics suits have 'low' shield regeneration. The Minmatar logi is not alone in this, and actually the shield regeneration is distinctly average, being the same as unspecialised medium frames. It's just that the assault suits have a bonus to their shield regen.
A prototype logistics suit certainly does not cost three times as much as an equivalent tier assault suit. Four proto equipment items will set you back approximately 80k, depending on what they are. That's about the cost of a proto weapon, less than the cost of a protosuit. The average proto assault suit tends to cost 130-200k. If a logi suit costed three times as much, it would cost 390-600k. Show me the logi suit which costs anywhere near that - mine, using proto equipment, costs 170k.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by the next part. Do you mean to say that equipment is a secondary function of the logi, and less important than hacking? This comes down to role definition. What is the role of a logistics suit? I'm quite certain that it should be equipment support, rather than hacking. Hacking is a much more scout-like role.
Fair enough if you specifically skilled into the suit for the hacking bonus, but honestly that just makes me think you're trying to defend your stuff from being changed. If hacking is the primary function that you want, that's fine, but that doesn't mean it should be shoehorned onto a suit which doesn't really fit the role. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
3922
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 22:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
DJINN Jecture wrote:As for lumping everything that isn't shooting as "support", which clearly every other action is. We fight until clones are gone or the MCC is. If you can speed up MCC destruction then maybe you don't need to clone the enemy out. Supply ammo and armor is support, so is shooting people. As for Drop uplinks winning matches, yes they can turn the tide but need to have people running in who can push the enemy back rather than lemming up. A drop uplink by itself without that pusher is useless. Your bonuses changing on all suits is sure to cause a lot of requests for respec after the fact. I don't feel your grasp on the subject matter is sufficient to warrant going over all suits racial bonus and spec bonuses with a change on everything.
I agree, something that isn't directly shooting/fighting but still aiding the battle is support.
Shooting people isn't necessarily support as such, but is that really so relevant to what you're trying to argue here? This is more about equipment/hacking.
Naturally equipment, correctly used, will give an advantage to the team utilising it. That's the point.
I would question your assertion that KAGEHOSHI doesn't have a 'sufficient grasp on the subject matter' - this thread wasn't done by him alone, it was the product of him going out and asking a number of people what they thought about each suit.
There is always whining for a respec after any balancing change in this game. Always.
I notice that this has gone from defending the Minmatar logi's bonus to defending all the current bonuses. In that case, do you really think they make sense? Shield bonuses on the Gallente assault, for example, are stupid things to have.
Quote:
I have yet to claim the logi as under powered, although I understand how you may get that feeling. I see the capability of a logi to deploy a massive amount of equipment already as it's greatest strength. I don't feel it needs a buff in that aspect and with the higher sig radius, the hacking bonus keeps it balanced for gameplay unlike what a hacking bonus on a scout suit would do.
The logistics class in general tends to have the ability to deploy plenty of equipment - the idea behind the bonus here, I assume, is to define the role of the Minmatar logi better when using equipment.
The next part of your post really baffles me. Are you genuinely suggesting that a hacking bonus on a scout would be overpowered?
Quote:
Yes the whole team on both sides can see an objective being hacked, but that doesn't mean they can see the hacker or catch them after the hack, which balances a lengthy process of counter hacking an objective. The Logi having that bonus is ideal for countering a hack and can save a team many clones simply by holding on to an objective. They supply the defenders, rep the defenders and provide a quick spawn for defenders.
If they can see the objective being hacked, they know where the hacker is. You have to be on the letter/console to hack it, so obviously anyone hacking the objective is going to be there.
A super hacker being able to defend the objective on their own is very much entering swiss army knife territory, where something is covering too many roles. The logistics role is more for direct repair/resupply/respawn support - not combat, RRR, -and- hacking. It's already a problem that the logistics class tends to be too versatile, the hacking bonus here completely overshadows a scout's role as hacker.
Quote:
I would hate to have a scout hanging around defending an objective, they are much more useful running around stealthily and killing your uplinks or nanohives and hacking your objective while you are trying to take the one I am protecting. Ideally I would say that it would benefit a scout to have the hack bonus but feel it would be too much on a scout. The hacking bonus of a logi is not at all a non-support bonus. It is the one aspect of the suit that allows it to step up and take the front lines because it is the best at it. Yes, it is a support bonus, and allows the rest of the team to go on killing while the minmatar logi is taking the points. Turning their back to the crowd of reds so that they don't have to.
What does a scout actually do? Taking out nanohives is hardly a job, especially when restricted to hives that nobody is actually using because apparently they can't fight. You even mentioned that part of their job is hacking. Why not have the hacking bonus on a scout then? It's their primary role.
The idea that a hacking bonus on a scout would make it overpowered is, frankly, ludicrous. It doesn't change the amount of time it takes for an objective to change hands, all it would do is help the scout hack and get away quickly, which, as you pointed out earlier, is balanced by the fact that the objective takes time to change hands and needs to be defended. If, as you say, a scout is unable to or shouldn't defend an objective, then what's the problem with them having a hack bonus?
The hacking bonus on the logi isn't a non-support bonus, but support covers a very broad spectrum of roles. In this case, it overshadows the role of the scout as a ninja hacker, as well as having strong equipment options, and being tougher, and not being much slower. An active scanner will pick up the vast majority of scouts as well anyway. In short, the logistics is a superior option to the scout. The scout should not be the inferior option in a hacking scenario, and the logistics shouldn't be so versatile. Thus, the reasonable conclusion is that the hacking bonus would be better off on a scout. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
3933
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 06:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:
Caldari Med:
4% Shield Extender Efficacy lvl, 3% Rail/Swarm Tech reload per lvl.
Assault Role: 1% light dmg per level
Logistics Role: 5% equipment fitting per level
However, instead of these being descriptions on the skills, a Caldari assault suit would actually say in its description:
4% Shield Extender Efficacy and 3% Rail/Swarm Tech reload per rank of Caldari Medium Frame Dropsuits
1% Light Weapon damage per rank of Caldari Assault Dropsuits
So:
Caldari Med:
4% Shield Extender Efficacy and 3% Rail/Swarm Tech reload speed per rank in Caldari Medium Frame Dropsuits.
That could still be the listed bonus on the Medium Frame Suit. However, the specialized suits could change like so:
Caldari Logistics:
5% range of equipment and 3% Rail/Swarm tech reload per rank of Caldari Medium Frame Dropsuits
5% Bonus to Equipment fitting per rank of Caldari Logistics Dropsuits
Caldari Assault:
4% Shield Extender Efficacy and 2% Rail Weapon Fire rate increase per rank of Caldari Medium Frame Dropsuits
1% Light Weapon damage per rank of Caldari Assault Dropsuits
Hm. These bonuses seem remarkably effective - 20% efficacy to shield extenders and 10% to fire rate as well as 5% to damage is a far more effective set of bonuses than anything we have at the moment. |