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[Request] Better dropsuit specialization skill bonuses

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Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2427	Posted - 2013.09.26 03:23:00 - [1] - Quote I'd be inclined to say the assault damage bonus should probably be closer to 1% per level. If we can agree that the current time-to-kill (with the 10% post-uprising bonus applied) is too short, then these suit changes would keep all PRO-assault players (regardless of suit) killing people too quickly, and they'd be their own separate class vs. other players. 10% is the difference between STD and PRO in damage. It's a huge damage buff that in this scenario would effectively be a nerf to all non-assault players. Sure, it might discourage the assault-logi phenomenon, but if everything else dies in seconds then it would become an assault-focused games (much as many people have fallen back on cheap fits with ARs in this build). I'd also say that aside from melee-glitchers, you don't see much melee. It's a very specialized bonus in comparison to the others. With the Amarr Scout, I don't know that additional spawns on a link is frequently a problem/need. It seems you're more likely to have a link destroyed than run out of spawns unless you've put it on a roof (and you don't need a scout for that).
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2431	Posted - 2013.09.26 04:24:00 - [2] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Anyone know the signature profile of a drop uplink? I'm thinking of having the Amarr scout bonus be about decrease uplink sig profile to keep them hidden. EDIT: Could also just make it spawn time reduction. If you could get enough of a bonus to keep uplinks of scanners, that would be pretty impressive. I'm a little curious how they'd get all the equipment stats to stay persistent if an Amarr Scout say, dropped links, died, then was in another suit the rest of the match. Similar question on nanohive benefits, if you throw out a bunch from the supply depot in your suit that gives bonuses - do they remain "bonus-ed" hives after you've swapped to an assault for the rest of the game? They've apparently had issues getting the sort of granular suit bonuses they want, and it seems like some bonuses on existing things supposedly don't work (bug threads about these things occasionally). Perhaps this is a sad way to look at it, but with some bonuses I'd be concerned about my ability to be sure it's actually working as intended with the length of the fixing-cycle in this game vs. the time investment required for a lot of the gear. If something doesn't work, you may be out a month's worth of SP with no even vague estimate of when the fix might come. For example, with drop-uplinks and spawn time, actually timing spawns to see if you've getting the bonus after you've died, or if it still works if the Amarr Scout user has died, etc. That would have some issues nailing it down vs. default spawn time/how long you sat bleeding out/server lag/etc. Compared to signature profile though, that's at least sort of straightforward to test.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2431	Posted - 2013.09.26 04:33:00 - [3] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: I don't mind the 10% damage. It's basically a free damage mod. Just like current logis get a free complex rep. Seems fine to me. Armor reps never keep pace with damage though, it's additive as well, without any stacking issues. A complex damage mod is relatively hard to fit, and also has stacking penalties. A suit damage bonus has no stacking penalties with damage mods or proficiency. So, a 10% bonus (single complex mod) is the difference between a STD AR and a Duvolle AR. Normally, adding another damage mod won't give you 10% more, it'll give you 8%, and less after that. Since this bonus would exist exterior to damage mods/stacking or proficiency, it's effectively like give every Standard AR user with a PRO assault (even when wearing a STD suit) a free Duvolle damage-wise. No stacking penalties, no other issues. Comparatively, a 5% bonus is like giving everyone a "free Gek". Or an enhanced damage mod with no stacking penalties - that's still a very strong bonus compared to many of the other bonuses proposed that don't have a direct impact on your killing/surviving. This makes the damage bonus relatively "stronger" than many other bonuses. It's different for things like a hacking bonus, because people tend not to use slots for them in the first place, and they have no stacking penalty (you get the full bonus for every hacking module you bother to slot).
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2436	Posted - 2013.09.26 11:55:00 - [4] - Quote I'd kinda like assault-bonuses to all be weapon-themed, but I can also see the value in espousing tank bonuses there. I wonder if it would be bad to have multiple bonuses per suit-spec. That is, intead of ONE assault global bonus and ONE racial bonus, have a few bonuses attached to each racial spec. e.g. - Assault bonus: 1% damage Minmatar bonuses 1. Shield/armor module 2% fitting reduction per level 2. 5% Magazine size increase per level for Minmatar weapons: (Combat Rifle, Precision Rifle, Mass Driver, Flaylock, SMG) Caldari Bonus 1. 5% Shield Extender Efficacy Per Level 2. 3% Caldari Weapon Reload speed: (Sniper Rifle, Swarm Launcher, Rail Rifle, Rail pistol) Amarr Bonus 1. 4% Armor Plate Efficacy Per Level 2. 5% Heat build-up reduction per level for laser weapons, Scrambler pistol fire-rate increase of 1% per level. Gallente Bonus 1. 10% Armor Repairer Efficacy per Level 2. 1% Plasma Weapon Fire rate bonus per level, 5% Plasma Cannon Projectile speed increase per level. Those are just examples, but freed from the idea of singular bonuses - you can give every race a bonus that's both useful for tanking and useful for weaponry/attacking. Having multiple bonuses instead of singular bonuses would also get around having a bonuses to equipment that are overly restrictive on logistics. I don't see any reason why you couldn't craft exceptions/additional bonuses if you wanted to make sure the Amarr got a bonus to Scrambler pistols or the Mass Driver received a different bonus in lieu of magazine-size either (for example). The current single-bonus system is overly restrictive role-wise and in terms of imagination. We can do better! Barring that, suit sub-specialties that give those sorts of bonuses would be a good idea. (i.e. at Caldari Assault 3, you unlock sub-skills beneath it on the tree like Caldari Weapon Mastery or Caldari Damage Mitigation).
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2637	Posted - 2013.10.04 11:09:00 - [5] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: zibathy numbertwo wrote: Armor tanking classes need base armor repair. Have skills that add 1 armor/s per level for Amarr and Gallente heavy/medium/light. I dont like my 500 armor taking a full 3 minutes to heal. 1 kill every 3 minutes amounts to 5 kills a game if I never died and always lost all my armor. Shields don't have to worry about that. it is kindof the point of shields, but that said shields are abit too sturdy and armor abit too fragile when you take into account their native repair rates. Maybe a skill within the tree, Amarr Armor Repair and Gallente Armore Repair, etc, each raising at levels that make sense for their race. Maybe a few more 'core' skills like that are needed to help flesh the races, throw it all into role bonuses and things get abit murky on the stats page... That's kinda why I'd like multiple role bonuses, since single ones often seem so restrictive role-wise. That said, I completely understand why KAGEHOSHI would work within the existing framework as far as having changes more likely. I do think that multiple role bonuses would be slightly more likely than additional sub-skills (which I also think is a good solution). When it comes to "least-effort", adding to the skill tree seems so unlikely with how they've prioritized work. Multiple role bonuses seem somewhat less unlikely, and KAGEHOSHI's work within the framework of course is the most straight-forward way to edit as it's just swapping/altering existing content. I dunno. The skills we have are still missing bonuses. I'm not sure how much I should I focus on game-changes that would seem more desirable on the whole vs. ones I think are more likely to happen.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2765	Posted - 2013.10.16 01:06:00 - [6] - Quote So, I recently made a trial EVE account. I found it interesting that they do the a double bonus for ship type, and then give a separate role bonus when you specialize later. It reminded me of CCP Remnant's post on suit bonuses back in May where he said they had various changes slated included moving bonuses over to basic suits. That was never expanded on at the time, and hasn't really come up since (you always get the impression the changes are coming soon). Earlier, I suggested that they should use dual bonuses to make the bonuses more interesting: Quote: Assault bonus: 1% damage Minmatar bonuses 1. Shield/armor module 2% fitting reduction per level 2. 5% Magazine size increase per level for Minmatar weapons: (Combat Rifle, Precision Rifle, Mass Driver, Flaylock, SMG) Caldari Bonus 1. 5% Shield Extender Efficacy Per Level 2. 3% Caldari Weapon Reload speed: (Sniper Rifle, Swarm Launcher, Rail Rifle, Rail pistol) Amarr Bonus 1. 4% Armor Plate Efficacy Per Level 2. 5% Heat build-up reduction per level for laser weapons, Scrambler pistol fire-rate increase of 1% per level. ..or whatever Looking at it again, that's actually really similar to how it works in EVE apparently. An Amarr IceCream-Truck skill gets at least two bonuses, like 5% to freezing & 2% to neon signage per level, then a separate role bonus is applied to a variant of that same item (Popsicle Truck) and it still gets a bonus from the Icecream-Truck skill, but it gets the +3% Popsicle storage bonus for the role. Since Remnant was talking about moving bonuses over to basic suits, maybe he was talking about doing an EVE copy there? In that scenario we'd have something like: Amarr Medium Dropsuits: 5% Armor Plate Efficacy Per Level and 5% Heat build-up reduction per level for laser weapons, Scrambler pistol fire-rate increase of 1% per level Amarr Assault Dropsuits: 1% damage per level Amarr Logistics Dropsuits: etc. Or, to rework using KAGEHOSHI's examples: Amarr Medium Dropsuits: 5% heat buildup reduction per lv for laser weaponry, 1 armor repair HP/s per lv Amarr Assault Dropsuit: 1% damage per level of light weapons Amarr Logistics Dropsuit: 5% reduction of PG/CPU of equipment per lv So at max rank of all those skills: Am. Assault: 25% heat reduction, 5 hp/s armor, and 5% to light dmg Am. Logistics: 25% heat reduction, 5 hp/s armor, and 25% to equip fitting Am. Medium frame: 25% heat reduction, 5 hp/s armor or a KAGEHOSHI Min-set: Min. Assault: 25% projectile and explosive weapon bonus, 150% more equipment/supply carried, and 5% to light dmg Min. Logistics: 25% projectile and explosive weapon bonus, 150% more equipment/supply carried, and 25% to equip fitting Min. Medium frame: 25% projectile and explosive weapon bonus, 150% more equipment/supply carried Of course, I don't think he wrote them with them being used this way in mind. In either case, it creates a very similar situation to EVE (which actually has a similar "get to rank 3, and move along if you want" approach to the ships too). Though it's worth mention that EVE will alter the two bonuses you get for having ranks in the "basic" skill on the special variants. I didn't bother doing that, though CCP could certainly do it that way too: e.g.: Amarr Assault Suit: 1. 5% bonus to heat buildup and 1hp/s armor repair PER rank in Amarr Medium Frames 2. 1% light wep damage PER rank in Amarr Assault Suits The bonus given per rank of Medium frames could vary depending on the suit (that would be more EVE accurate, though not strictly speaking necessary). In that scenario, you'd possibly get different pair of bonuses for "Medium frames" on the Basic, Assault, and Logistics suits. You would want to continue leveling the medium suit skill to get all the bonuses for it in the other suit, otherwise your logi/assault specs would only partially benefit from the racial bonus to the suit type (it becomes a much more "core" skill that's must-have, and the role bonus skill becomes more diminishing return-like). However the player more interested in advancing into a role quickly could do so. It also solves the problem of having a suit skill (the "basic" frames) that don't have any passives or do anything. It's a different way of conceiving of the skills, and you effectively have to think of two bonuses that are racially appropriate. Or, you could also say it's just copying EVE's system to a degree (not-so-new). Anyhow, I think that's what Remnant was suggesting at the time, if them moving towards that sort of scheme changes what you'd want the bonuses to be: Quote: *Yeah, we're going to be bringing the race bonus down onto the basic suits*. It's one of a few adjustments to the dropsuit progression we'll be outlining in the next few days. Some adjustments we'll be making very shortly, but others will be a fair bit later. - CCP Remnant
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2769	Posted - 2013.10.16 03:50:00 - [7] - Quote EVE-side, the ship skills just have levels (not unlike the current Medium Frame Suits), and then on the ship themselves it lists the bonuses per level. I think using the suit skill rank as a modifier determining completely separate bonuses on the suits themselves has some strengths design-wise because it opens up the option to have special variants of suits with slight different bonus sets. The EVE archetype effectively does this with "Specialized" ships, while changing slots slightly and granting a role-bonus at the same time (typically per level, like we'd do with assault). If we had the suit skills separated from the suits themselves and used as a modifier/multiplier with no inherent associated skill in the same way it would free them/us up to alter suits, retire old ones, introduce new ones, etc. all with different skill bonuses dependent on those ranks assigned to the physical suit itself. Suit builds CCP retired would slowly get destroyed in battles until that particular set of skill bonuses is rare for that race/role. The initial offering could be vanilla to keep the burden of change lighter on them in terms of stats, and by that I mean the medium frame bonus would just be carried over exactly on the other medium suits. So, initially you might have Caldari Med: 4% Shield Extender Efficacy lvl, 3% Rail/Swarm Tech reload per lvl. Assault Role: 1% light dmg per level Logistics Role: 5% equipment fitting per level However, instead of these being descriptions on the skills, a Caldari assault suit would actually say in its description: 4% Shield Extender Efficacy and 3% Rail/Swarm Tech reload per rank of Caldari Medium Frame Dropsuits 1% Light Weapon damage per rank of Caldari Assault Dropsuits With bonus information shifted to the suits, they could later introduce suit changes. People talk about suit changes all the time of course. These could be changes to what a regular suit of that type is (Assault suits gain a grenade slot, lose an equipment slot, etc.) to further differentiate them from Medium frames, or they could be adding variants. These are "physical" changes to the suits that people talk about all the time. The more interesting shift would be to slightly alter role bonuses on the suits. So: Caldari Med: 4% Shield Extender Efficacy and 3% Rail/Swarm Tech reload speed per rank in Caldari Medium Frame Dropsuits. That could still be the listed bonus on the Medium Frame Suit. However, the specialized suits could change like so: Caldari Logistics: 5% range of equipment and 3% Rail/Swarm tech reload per rank of Caldari Medium Frame Dropsuits 5% Bonus to Equipment fitting per rank of Caldari Logistics Dropsuits Caldari Assault: 4% Shield Extender Efficacy and 2% Rail Weapon Fire rate increase per rank of Caldari Medium Frame Dropsuits 1% Light Weapon damage per rank of Caldari Assault Dropsuits In this way, your skill rank in prereqs is valuable (nigh-priceless really) at all steps, and the skill bonuses change to reflect the suit you're using. You can make these sorts of changes to skills independently of changes to actual suit stats. If the suit turns out to be OP, take it off the market and it goes away in time. This kind of system would work better if they're moving some bonuses to basic frames-skill I think, because it gets around mandating bonuses that are overly narrow in scope of player action and restrict flexibility. Hard passive bonuses assigned to the skill instead of the suit that are inherited up the tree would have some issues in comparison. The current "light" suits are sort of trapped in a somewhat poorly defined role as they look to establish EWAR and what other aspects they think scouts should excel at. If a "Pilot" suit is another variant in the class, having something like the current profile bonuses wouldn't make sense to be global from the basic frame. On the other hand, if the Pilot has a custom set of bonuses that are just configured to "... per rank in the Gallente Light Frames Skill, and X per rank in Gallente Pilot Skill", that's less of a concern. So, the operative part of the question here is if Remnant meant they were moving bonuses to the actual basic suits (which is what he said, and would be like EVE), or to the basic SKILL (which would be more similar to the current system, but have a less pointless frame skill).
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2774	Posted - 2013.10.16 06:57:00 - [8] - Quote Well, I can't claim to have been particularly balance-minded when I generated those. I was thinking mostly of having bonuses that thematically matched the races. In the case of general bonuses, with a paired bonus it seems sensible to have one bonus reflect their weaponry and the other a bonus to their style of tanking. In my original view, this would've been represented by something like: Caldari: Shield Extender/Rail Reload (mostly because they formerly had reload, and hybrid is too broad) Gallente: Armor Repair/Plasma-fire-rate Minmatar: Shield/Armor fitting bonus/Magazine-size on Projectile weapons (the idea with the former is representing the idea of Minmatar being adapatable, throwing things together, etc.) Amarr: Plate hp/Laser heat build That said, balancing the game against additional bonuses is necessary, and I'd predicate any sort of change on getting other things fixed. I already made a thread about TTK being too short in my opinion, so I'm presupposing things like the 10% uprising damage bonus being rolled back, getting weapon damage values in order, etc. I'd still like to see shield/armor changed somewhat as well as many other things. Dual bonuses and a separate role bonus within that structure gets around problems with a singular modifier being overly narrow with respect to defining a character as well. A logistics role suit that has its singular bonus invested towards "Droplinks" is proposing a small avenue of performance upgrade for a character. The idea was less about the specific numbers of the skills (on which I was spitballing), and more-so on designing the way the game handled bonuses with respect to our roles differently.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3050	Posted - 2013.11.14 07:18:00 - [9] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I would really really like to see all assaults with bonuses that enhance their races' weapons. Not seeing that happening in 1.7... Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3062	Posted - 2013.11.19 13:18:00 - [10] - Quote Quote: As for the suggestion to have racial bonus tied to basic frame, i couldnt agree more !! Again, this is something i brought to CCP many times. It would make bonuses benefit newer players as they use basic frames first and ALSO, make skilling the last two levels of basic frame skill usefull. and not a total SP sink for newbies as it is now. Good to see that sort of support. It seems pretty common sense, and despite Dust not being intended to be a "clone" of EVE - the basic->role skill setup there is actually a clever bit of design too I think. Join my cult.

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3085	Posted - 2013.12.04 20:41:00 - [11] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I would flip around the Amarr and Gallente heavy bonuses. Gallente are about having raw armor, while Amarr are about being able to rep armor. This would keep the suits in line with their assault/logi cousins I think that's backwards from the EVE model, though they could do it either way I guess. Amarr suits seem to feature higher base hp in general as opposed to Armor/Shield focus, and the logi definitely has a self-repair focus currently... I have a feeling that a lot of the logi bonuses will change though. They stated in a Feedback that they want to get rid of slayer-logis as a paradigm. It's hard to say what changes that will bring (and the Amarr will likely feel it least since their logi is explicitly a combat-logi), but I think a lot of those bonuses on logis will shift. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3119	Posted - 2014.01.09 21:18:00 - [12] - Quote Given the present... kerfluffle, this post seems relevant. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3119	Posted - 2014.01.09 21:38:00 - [13] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Given the present... kerfluffle, this post seems relevant. Yeah, I HAAAAAATE the assault bonuses they're considering (the Amarr heat buildup bonus should not be removed). I'm fine with all the other bonuses, though I hope the base precision of the active scanners are nerfed to make up for the Gallente bonus they're considering. They actually got pretty close to your suggestions in many spots (the logi fitting bonus, Sentinels reworked as resist-focused, Commandos all getting reload bonuses), but you were more careful about handing out damage, had broader logi bonuses, and didn't know they'd toss the cloak into the mix (which scouts are having issues with...). Join my cult.

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