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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
1028
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 06:36:00 -
[31] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Changed Minmatar assault to 5% magazine size per level bonus for projectiles; SMG and combat rifle (SoonGäó). Inspired a bit by the Amarr assault.
YAY, I halped! Just make sure it doesn't screw up the Combat Rifle's bursts like the Burst Scrambler Pistol and that sounds pretty good. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
1028
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 06:37:00 -
[32] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:I came for the honeyed lamb... 4<(^.^)>-E
It's bait for Wolfman, don't eat all of it :c |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
6222
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 06:37:00 -
[33] - Quote
Awry Barux wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Awry Barux wrote:Reposted from a thread I just made, but it's relevant here: The Amarr Assault 5% heat reduction per level is out of line with other racial suit bonuses. It's the only dropsuit skill that provides a direct DPS increase (to the LR) and a sustained DPS increase (SCR). Therefore, using any other suit with those weapons, or other weapons with that suit, is effectively penalized. My Amarr Logi should be able to use the LR just as well as my assault comrades, instead of having to sacrifice a magical land of bonus damage in exchange for equipment slots. The LR either has to be slightly UP without the Amarr assault or slightly OP with it- there's no good way to balance a weapon whose damage is directly affected by choice of suit. I don't know what the Amarr assault bonus should be changed to, but the current state is bad. Thoughts? I disagree with you completely. The Amarr make laser weaponry, so it only make sense that they would make their offensive suit (assault) to best utilize their weaponry. Your logi should not be able to use an LR or SCR just as well as an Amarr assault, logis aren't meant for offense, while assaults are. Why should you be able to use it just as well as an assault? The DPS still has to build up gradually with the LR, so its not just a simple DPS increase, its only on the condition that you survive the gun fight long enough to build to that higher DPS. An Amarr assault with an LR and some other suit with an LR will initially have the same DPS. That makes it fair IMO. As for the SCR, the sustained DPS is functionally the same as a bigger magazine; which is what the Minmatar assault has as a bonus for sidearms. Consider this, some assault suits' current bonoses gives them extra HP (Caldari shield extender bonus), why is that more balanced? Also the Gallente's hybrid weapon fitting bonus could allow someone to save just the right amount of PG/CPU to fit a complex damage mod that they otherwise would be unable to fit, an indirectly can make one have much higher DPS (and without having to buildup to it like the LR). Why are those more balanced? I play as Amarr logi, and currently the bonuses is like having a built-in complex armor repairer, plus you get the armor repairer bonus, plus you get 2 more equipment slots, plus you get 1 more low slot (great for achieving high HP with an armor mod, or getting more speed with a kin catalyzer). First, the Amarr logi has a sidearm slot- it's meant to be the most combat-ready logi. All logis, especially the Amarr, are meant to have non-trivial offensive capabilities. Logis do support, but that's by no means their only job. I should be able to use the LR just as well as an Amarr Assault because this restriction does not apply to any other weapon. I was certainly not saying that the Amarr Logi is less powerful overall than the Amarr assault. All that's required to circumvent the initial build up time is a little LR preheating behind cover. Or, to put it a different way, the Amarr assault bonus makes a standard LR in their hands perform better than an ADV LR on any other suit. For the SCR, it actually is very different than a straight clip size increase. The SCR's burst DPS, both with charge shots and uncharged shots, vastly outstrips any other weapon, including the AR. The balancing factor is the heat generation. While reduced heat generation, like clip size, does simply mean that you can fire for longer at a time, the effect on the SCR is very different than the effect on a SMG/SCP/FP. Waiting for heat to reduce is not at all the same as reloading, as you can charge the SCR during that time, or sprint, or throw grenades. In comparison to the shield extender bonus or the Gal assault, the issue with the Amarr bonus is its extremely specific nature. Stronger shields or saving some PG/CPU is universally good and can be used in every situation, while heat reduction is either useless or incredibly good depending on your choice of weapon.
No one is saying logis are suppose to suck at offense, just like no one is saying assaults are suppose to be useless at support, but each specialization has a role they thrive in. So assaults are suppose to be better at offense, and logis are suppose to be better at defense, much like scouts are suppose to be better at steatlth, etc.
The fact that there is no percent for a weapon being significantly better with one suit does not mean its a bad idea. I don't see a problem with it, and I wish other assault suits did something like that (I would love a projectile magazine size bonus for the Minmatar assault).
The Amarr assault is a very powerful bonus, but the specific nature of it balances it out. Its great at one thing, but gets no avantages at another thing; that's how specialization works. The fact that the bonus is only good for 2 weapons is balance enough.
I'm just starting to skill into Amarr assault on my main (after getting level 4 on an alt for testing), don't ruin it for me . |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
1031
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 06:40:00 -
[34] - Quote
Awry Barux wrote: In comparison to the shield extender bonus or the Gal assault, the issue with the Amarr bonus is its extremely specific nature. Stronger shields or saving some PG/CPU is universally good and can be used in every situation, while heat reduction is either useless or incredibly good depending on your choice of weapon.
...is that not the point of a role bonus? To give them a specific role using their native tech? In EVE, almost any combat ship has a 10% to their racial turret damage or fire interval. If you are using a Railgun on a Hurricane, you aren't doing it wrong, but are doing it badly. Same thing here. Put a Laser on the Amarr, and it functions better. Works for me. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
1031
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 06:46:00 -
[35] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Awry Barux wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Awry Barux wrote:Reposted from a thread I just made, but it's relevant here: The Amarr Assault 5% heat reduction per level is out of line with other racial suit bonuses. It's the only dropsuit skill that provides a direct DPS increase (to the LR) and a sustained DPS increase (SCR). Therefore, using any other suit with those weapons, or other weapons with that suit, is effectively penalized. My Amarr Logi should be able to use the LR just as well as my assault comrades, instead of having to sacrifice a magical land of bonus damage in exchange for equipment slots. The LR either has to be slightly UP without the Amarr assault or slightly OP with it- there's no good way to balance a weapon whose damage is directly affected by choice of suit. I don't know what the Amarr assault bonus should be changed to, but the current state is bad. Thoughts? I disagree with you completely. The Amarr make laser weaponry, so it only make sense that they would make their offensive suit (assault) to best utilize their weaponry. Your logi should not be able to use an LR or SCR just as well as an Amarr assault, logis aren't meant for offense, while assaults are. Why should you be able to use it just as well as an assault? The DPS still has to build up gradually with the LR, so its not just a simple DPS increase, its only on the condition that you survive the gun fight long enough to build to that higher DPS. An Amarr assault with an LR and some other suit with an LR will initially have the same DPS. That makes it fair IMO. As for the SCR, the sustained DPS is functionally the same as a bigger magazine; which is what the Minmatar assault has as a bonus for sidearms. Consider this, some assault suits' current bonoses gives them extra HP (Caldari shield extender bonus), why is that more balanced? Also the Gallente's hybrid weapon fitting bonus could allow someone to save just the right amount of PG/CPU to fit a complex damage mod that they otherwise would be unable to fit, an indirectly can make one have much higher DPS (and without having to buildup to it like the LR). Why are those more balanced? I play as Amarr logi, and currently the bonuses is like having a built-in complex armor repairer, plus you get the armor repairer bonus, plus you get 2 more equipment slots, plus you get 1 more low slot (great for achieving high HP with an armor mod, or getting more speed with a kin catalyzer). First, the Amarr logi has a sidearm slot- it's meant to be the most combat-ready logi. All logis, especially the Amarr, are meant to have non-trivial offensive capabilities. Logis do support, but that's by no means their only job. I should be able to use the LR just as well as an Amarr Assault because this restriction does not apply to any other weapon. I was certainly not saying that the Amarr Logi is less powerful overall than the Amarr assault. All that's required to circumvent the initial build up time is a little LR preheating behind cover. Or, to put it a different way, the Amarr assault bonus makes a standard LR in their hands perform better than an ADV LR on any other suit. For the SCR, it actually is very different than a straight clip size increase. The SCR's burst DPS, both with charge shots and uncharged shots, vastly outstrips any other weapon, including the AR. The balancing factor is the heat generation. While reduced heat generation, like clip size, does simply mean that you can fire for longer at a time, the effect on the SCR is very different than the effect on a SMG/SCP/FP. Waiting for heat to reduce is not at all the same as reloading, as you can charge the SCR during that time, or sprint, or throw grenades. In comparison to the shield extender bonus or the Gal assault, the issue with the Amarr bonus is its extremely specific nature. Stronger shields or saving some PG/CPU is universally good and can be used in every situation, while heat reduction is either useless or incredibly good depending on your choice of weapon. No one is saying logis are suppose to suck at offense, just like no one is saying assaults are suppose to be useless at support, but each specialization has a role they thrive in. So assaults are suppose to be better at offense, and logis are suppose to be better at defense, much like scouts are suppose to be better at steatlth, etc. The fact that there is no percedent for a weapon being significantly better with one suit does not mean its a bad idea. I don't see a problem with it, and I wish other assault suits did something like that (I would love a projectile magazine size bonus for the Minmatar assault). The Amarr assault is a very powerful bonus, but the specific nature of it balances it out. Its great at one thing, but gets no advantages at another thing; that's how specialization works. The fact that the bonus is only good for 2 weapons is balance enough. I'm just starting to skill into Amarr assault on my main (after getting level 4 on an alt for testing), don't ruin it for me .
Amarr is fahn, love the Laser since the day it came out. I have to say though, firing it into a wall to 'heat it up' is a dreadful waste. It's like telling a Heavy to fire his HMG into a wall to get it to spool up before firing at someone. Sure you do more damage once it hits, but you wasted a ton of ammo and the enemy can already hear you firing.
As for the Assault Bonuses, they should give bonuses to Assaults direct combat ability. These bonuses incrase the DPM of the Amarr and Minny, NOT the DPS. there is a distinct difference. The DPS is the damage per any one second. Increase that, and you decrease TTK, which can easily break the game. These skills increase DPM, the sustained damage done in a long fight against multiple hostiles. This makes them better frontline fighters than the Logistics, which has to reload more or cool down for a spell. |
Sarducar Kahn
xCosmic Voidx The Superpowers
109
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 06:50:00 -
[36] - Quote
I dislike all of the direct bonus to X equipment/weapon it corals people down a path. I personally love the scrambler but hate Amman frames to the point where I pay for mlt gallente ones instead of using my free Ammar ones. And a 25% fitting cost reduction for Logi equipment is massive 15/10% would be more acceptable. |
Awry Barux
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 06:52:00 -
[37] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Awry Barux wrote: In comparison to the shield extender bonus or the Gal assault, the issue with the Amarr bonus is its extremely specific nature. Stronger shields or saving some PG/CPU is universally good and can be used in every situation, while heat reduction is either useless or incredibly good depending on your choice of weapon.
...is that not the point of a role bonus? To give them a specific role using their native tech? In EVE, almost any combat ship has a 10% to their racial turret damage or fire interval. If you are using a Railgun on a Hurricane, you aren't doing it wrong, but are doing it badly. Same thing here. Put a Laser on the Amarr, and it functions better. Works for me.
I suppose I wouldn't mind it if other races got similarly restrictive-but-powerful specialization bonuses. That would be a fun mechanics shift. It just seems odd to me that only the Amarr have this going on right now in Dust, and I think it's damaging to game balance for them to be the only ones with it. For example, I use scrambler rifles extensively on a Minmatar suit, and they're certainly not underpowered- I can get off plenty of shots before overheating (about 1.2k damage worth, in about 2 seconds using uncharged shots. It can be overheated in <1 second easily if you start with a charge shot). I just shudder to think how much better it would be on an Amarr Assault. Since I can overheat a scrambler rifle in less than a second, decreasing heat generation actually is precisely a DPS increase, especially since I don't have perfect accuracy. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
1033
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 06:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
Sarducar Kahn wrote:I dislike all of the direct bonus to X equipment/weapon it corals people down a path. I personally love the scrambler but hate Amman frames to the point where I pay for mlt gallente ones instead of using my free Ammar ones. And a 25% fitting cost reduction for Logi equipment is massive 15/10% would be more acceptable.
It isn't corralling, it is functional design. The Minmatar suit would obviously be designed for better use with Projectile weapons, and skilling into Minmatar gives you the knowledge to use those features. take a gander at EVElopedia, check the ship bonuses. You would define them all as 'corralling,' correct? |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
6223
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 06:54:00 -
[39] - Quote
Going to sleep now, will check on the thread and read comments after I wake up. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
1033
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 06:56:00 -
[40] - Quote
Awry Barux wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Awry Barux wrote: In comparison to the shield extender bonus or the Gal assault, the issue with the Amarr bonus is its extremely specific nature. Stronger shields or saving some PG/CPU is universally good and can be used in every situation, while heat reduction is either useless or incredibly good depending on your choice of weapon.
...is that not the point of a role bonus? To give them a specific role using their native tech? In EVE, almost any combat ship has a 10% to their racial turret damage or fire interval. If you are using a Railgun on a Hurricane, you aren't doing it wrong, but are doing it badly. Same thing here. Put a Laser on the Amarr, and it functions better. Works for me. I suppose I wouldn't mind it if other races got similarly restrictive-but-powerful specialization bonuses. That would be a fun mechanics shift. It just seems odd to me that only the Amarr have this going on right now in Dust, and I think it's damaging to game balance for them to be the only ones with it. For example, I use scrambler rifles extensively on a Minmatar suit, and they're certainly not underpowered- I can get off plenty of shots before overheating (about 1.2k damage worth, in about 2 seconds using uncharged shots. It can be overheated in <1 second easily if you start with a charge shot). I just shudder to think how much better it would be on an Amarr Assault. Since I can overheat a scrambler rifle in less than a second, decreasing heat generation actually is precisely a DPS increase, especially since I don't have perfect accuracy.
It allows you to get out more shots, but it's only important in a situation where overheating or having to pause for heat venting would get you killed. If that fellow vents your skull before you hit 50% heat, having an Amarr suit wouldn't have helped you. If that fellow was taken unawares, but he had a buddy, the Amarr suit may let you have enough heatsink to kill them both. |
|
The-Errorist
Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation
232
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 07:02:00 -
[41] - Quote
I really like this thread; it has great discussions and a well thought out OP. |
Awry Barux
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 07:07:00 -
[42] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Awry Barux wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Awry Barux wrote: In comparison to the shield extender bonus or the Gal assault, the issue with the Amarr bonus is its extremely specific nature. Stronger shields or saving some PG/CPU is universally good and can be used in every situation, while heat reduction is either useless or incredibly good depending on your choice of weapon.
...is that not the point of a role bonus? To give them a specific role using their native tech? In EVE, almost any combat ship has a 10% to their racial turret damage or fire interval. If you are using a Railgun on a Hurricane, you aren't doing it wrong, but are doing it badly. Same thing here. Put a Laser on the Amarr, and it functions better. Works for me. I suppose I wouldn't mind it if other races got similarly restrictive-but-powerful specialization bonuses. That would be a fun mechanics shift. It just seems odd to me that only the Amarr have this going on right now in Dust, and I think it's damaging to game balance for them to be the only ones with it. For example, I use scrambler rifles extensively on a Minmatar suit, and they're certainly not underpowered- I can get off plenty of shots before overheating (about 1.2k damage worth, in about 2 seconds using uncharged shots. It can be overheated in <1 second easily if you start with a charge shot). I just shudder to think how much better it would be on an Amarr Assault. Since I can overheat a scrambler rifle in less than a second, decreasing heat generation actually is precisely a DPS increase, especially since I don't have perfect accuracy. It allows you to get out more shots, but it's only important in a situation where overheating or having to pause for heat venting would get you killed. If that fellow vents your skull before you hit 50% heat, having an Amarr suit wouldn't have helped you. If that fellow was taken unawares, but he had a buddy, the Amarr suit may let you have enough heatsink to kill them both.
In my experience playing a glass-cannon SCR, situations where overheating or having to pause for heat venting would get me killed is every situation. Consider the following scenario with a non-Amarr suit: I pop out, shoot a charged shot and immediately follow up with uncharged shots. Generally, I can get charge + 3 shots before a full overheat. The time from the first shot to the overheat is <.5 seconds, easily fast enough that even a Duvolle AR will not have killed me yet, even if they're just as quick as me. It's highly plausible that an armor-tanked GalLogi or a heavy will survive the entire initial burst, necessitating either a weapon switch, cover, or death. The Amarr Assault suit would allow me to squeeze off multiple extra shots in that first second or two, effectively increasing my single-target DPS over that critical 1 to 2 second window of opportunity. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
1033
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 07:32:00 -
[43] - Quote
Awry Barux wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Awry Barux wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Awry Barux wrote: In comparison to the shield extender bonus or the Gal assault, the issue with the Amarr bonus is its extremely specific nature. Stronger shields or saving some PG/CPU is universally good and can be used in every situation, while heat reduction is either useless or incredibly good depending on your choice of weapon.
...is that not the point of a role bonus? To give them a specific role using their native tech? In EVE, almost any combat ship has a 10% to their racial turret damage or fire interval. If you are using a Railgun on a Hurricane, you aren't doing it wrong, but are doing it badly. Same thing here. Put a Laser on the Amarr, and it functions better. Works for me. I suppose I wouldn't mind it if other races got similarly restrictive-but-powerful specialization bonuses. That would be a fun mechanics shift. It just seems odd to me that only the Amarr have this going on right now in Dust, and I think it's damaging to game balance for them to be the only ones with it. For example, I use scrambler rifles extensively on a Minmatar suit, and they're certainly not underpowered- I can get off plenty of shots before overheating (about 1.2k damage worth, in about 2 seconds using uncharged shots. It can be overheated in <1 second easily if you start with a charge shot). I just shudder to think how much better it would be on an Amarr Assault. Since I can overheat a scrambler rifle in less than a second, decreasing heat generation actually is precisely a DPS increase, especially since I don't have perfect accuracy. It allows you to get out more shots, but it's only important in a situation where overheating or having to pause for heat venting would get you killed. If that fellow vents your skull before you hit 50% heat, having an Amarr suit wouldn't have helped you. If that fellow was taken unawares, but he had a buddy, the Amarr suit may let you have enough heatsink to kill them both. In my experience playing a glass-cannon SCR, situations where overheating or having to pause for heat venting would get me killed is every situation. Consider the following scenario with a non-Amarr suit: I pop out, shoot a charged shot and immediately follow up with uncharged shots. Generally, I can get charge + 3 shots before a full overheat. The time from the first shot to the overheat is <.5 seconds, easily fast enough that even a Duvolle AR will not have killed me yet, even if they're just as quick as me. It's highly plausible that an armor-tanked GalLogi or a heavy will survive the entire initial burst, necessitating either a weapon switch, cover, or death. The Amarr Assault suit would allow me to squeeze off multiple extra shots in that first second or two, effectively increasing my single-target DPS over that critical 1 to 2 second window of opportunity.
it does allow you to do more damage before you retreat, but it doesn't hurt his ability to do damage either. You having the ability to stay out for another second also means you are still being shot at by him, and Amarr suit or no, the <.5 second time window still has the same amount of damage done on both sides. So not an increase in DPS, and also far from unfair. |
Garth Mandra
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
125
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 07:33:00 -
[44] - Quote
I agree that the Amarr suit bonus is good. I just don't see it as a problem.
I am however rather biased as the LR has been my primary weapon since chromosome. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2436
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 11:55:00 -
[45] - Quote
I'd kinda like assault-bonuses to all be weapon-themed, but I can also see the value in espousing tank bonuses there. I wonder if it would be bad to have multiple bonuses per suit-spec.
That is, intead of ONE assault global bonus and ONE racial bonus, have a few bonuses attached to each racial spec.
e.g. -
Assault bonus: 1% damage
Minmatar bonuses 1. Shield/armor module 2% fitting reduction per level 2. 5% Magazine size increase per level for Minmatar weapons: (Combat Rifle, Precision Rifle, Mass Driver, Flaylock, SMG)
Caldari Bonus 1. 5% Shield Extender Efficacy Per Level 2. 3% Caldari Weapon Reload speed: (Sniper Rifle, Swarm Launcher, Rail Rifle, Rail pistol)
Amarr Bonus 1. 4% Armor Plate Efficacy Per Level 2. 5% Heat build-up reduction per level for laser weapons, Scrambler pistol fire-rate increase of 1% per level.
Gallente Bonus 1. 10% Armor Repairer Efficacy per Level 2. 1% Plasma Weapon Fire rate bonus per level, 5% Plasma Cannon Projectile speed increase per level.
Those are just examples, but freed from the idea of singular bonuses - you can give every race a bonus that's both useful for tanking and useful for weaponry/attacking. Having multiple bonuses instead of singular bonuses would also get around having a bonuses to equipment that are overly restrictive on logistics.
I don't see any reason why you couldn't craft exceptions/additional bonuses if you wanted to make sure the Amarr got a bonus to Scrambler pistols or the Mass Driver received a different bonus in lieu of magazine-size either (for example). The current single-bonus system is overly restrictive role-wise and in terms of imagination. We can do better!
Barring that, suit sub-specialties that give those sorts of bonuses would be a good idea. (i.e. at Caldari Assault 3, you unlock sub-skills beneath it on the tree like Caldari Weapon Mastery or Caldari Damage Mitigation). |
Severus Smith
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
364
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 12:59:00 -
[46] - Quote
I posted some thoughs on Tech 1 / Tech 2 bonuses a week or so ago. I put them with some Amarr suits to help illustrate the point.
Assault and Logi: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1283162#post1283162
Here they are for Scouts: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1285669#post1285669
A few thoughts:
A good Assault bonus could be 5% bonus to RoF per level. This is a DPS increase, but also makes it so that Assaults have to reload more often. I put this on my Tech 2 Assaults (in the above threads) to give them a specialized damage boost but keep them reliant on others to provide nanohives and such (my Tech 2 Assaults don't have equipment).
Also, a shield recharge rate bonus over an extenders bonus for the Caldari is perfect. In EVE the Caldari often passive tank their shields, relying on recharge rate to keep them ahead of the damage (Drake). This would go well here in DUST.
Finally, I hope that we get other suits with differing bonuses within the same "class". So two Caldari "Assault" suits; one that benefits CQC hybrid damage and provides and extender bonus (for brawling) and one that benefits range and provides a recharge bonus (for range). Again, just like ships in EVE. The Caldari have a bunch of Frigates, and they all have different bonuses that make them work better in some situations than others. |
Wombat in combat
TeamPlayers EoN.
84
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 13:39:00 -
[47] - Quote
It seems you quoted the wrong portion of my answer, fixed it. But yeah you are right about the multiplicative thing. However you are wrong about the advanced injector. It repairs 50% armor but not 60%. So for 10% per level the numbers will become: 45%, 75%, 120%. For 5% per level it'll become 38%, 63%, 100%. I guess this bonus would be acceptable with the proposed increased speed at injecting but for it to be worth it the WP award problem would have to be fixed, that is you should be awarded as much WP for reviving at 100% armor as reviving at 30% armor and repair the rest with a repair tool.
Generally though I' much more in favor of generalized bonuses, that is bonuses that don't force you to use certain types modules/equipments. At least the bonus should apply to more than one item, preferably 3 or more so your fittings are not as tied down.
The-Errorist wrote:Wombat in combat wrote:The Gallente bonus is the most weird and crappy one. Does 10% nanite injector efficacy per level mean when you use a 30% injector at level 5 it repairs 80%? And a 50% one 100%? What if you use the 80% one? Thats not how percent bonuses work in this game; it's not an additive bonus, but a multiplicative bonus. A militila/standard 30% injecter with the 50% from the Lv5 Gal Logi bonus will work this way: 30+ù(1+(0.1+ù5)) = 45 Advanced 60% injecter with the 50% from the Lv5 Gal Logi bonus: 60+ù(1+(0.1+ù5)) = 90 Proto 80% injecter with the 50% from the Lv5 Gal Logi bonus: 80+ù(1+(0.1+ù5)) = 120 ... A militila/standard 30% injecter with the 25% from the Lv5 Gal Logi: 30+ù(1+(0.05+ù5)) = 38 Advanced 60% injecter with the 25% from the Lv5 Gal Logi bonus: 60+ù(1+(0.05+ù5)) = 75 Proto 80% injecter with the 25% from the Lv5 Gal Logi bonus: 80+ù(1+(0.05+ù5)) = 100 |
General Erick
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
136
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 14:39:00 -
[48] - Quote
I like what you did for the Fatbro suit. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
6229
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 18:10:00 -
[49] - Quote
Severus Smith wrote:I posted some thoughs on Tech 1 / Tech 2 bonuses a week or so ago. I put them with some Amarr suits to help illustrate the point. Assault and Logi: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1283162#post1283162Here they are for Scouts: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1285669#post1285669A few thoughts: A good Assault bonus could be 5% bonus to RoF per level. This is a DPS increase, but also makes it so that Assaults have to reload more often. I put this on my Tech 2 Assaults (in the above threads) to give them a specialized damage boost but keep them reliant on others to provide nanohives and such (my Tech 2 Assaults don't have equipment). Also, a shield recharge rate bonus over an extenders bonus for the Caldari is perfect. In EVE the Caldari often passive tank their shields, relying on recharge rate to keep them ahead of the damage (Drake). This would go well here in DUST. Finally, I hope that we get other suits with differing bonuses within the same "class". So two Caldari "Assault" suits; one that benefits CQC hybrid damage and provides and extender bonus (for brawling) and one that benefits range and provides a recharge bonus (for range). Again, just like ships in EVE. The Caldari have a bunch of Frigates, and they all have different bonuses that make them work better in some situations than others.
I very much like your deep specialization ideas, but this thread is just about the existing ones. I very much like the RoF bonus idea for assaults. Might change it in my thread after thinking about it some more. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
1033
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 18:32:00 -
[50] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Severus Smith wrote:I posted some thoughs on Tech 1 / Tech 2 bonuses a week or so ago. I put them with some Amarr suits to help illustrate the point. Assault and Logi: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1283162#post1283162Here they are for Scouts: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1285669#post1285669A few thoughts: A good Assault bonus could be 5% bonus to RoF per level. This is a DPS increase, but also makes it so that Assaults have to reload more often. I put this on my Tech 2 Assaults (in the above threads) to give them a specialized damage boost but keep them reliant on others to provide nanohives and such (my Tech 2 Assaults don't have equipment). Also, a shield recharge rate bonus over an extenders bonus for the Caldari is perfect. In EVE the Caldari often passive tank their shields, relying on recharge rate to keep them ahead of the damage (Drake). This would go well here in DUST. Finally, I hope that we get other suits with differing bonuses within the same "class". So two Caldari "Assault" suits; one that benefits CQC hybrid damage and provides and extender bonus (for brawling) and one that benefits range and provides a recharge bonus (for range). Again, just like ships in EVE. The Caldari have a bunch of Frigates, and they all have different bonuses that make them work better in some situations than others. I very much like your deep specialization ideas, but this thread is just about the existing ones. I very much like the RoF bonus idea for assaults. Might change it in my thread after thinking about it some more.
RoF isn't a good idea here. Just imagine how it would effect different weapons. The Assault variants would get all of it as extra DPS. A Scrambler Rifle or other Tactical variant would suffer unless modded controllers were used. A Breach variant would BECOME an Assault variant. A Burst variant would become a Tactical variant.
Furthermore, RoF bonuses are good in EVE, but don't translate well to DUST. If I'm shooting in EVE, every shot is directly from my coffers. Faster RoF allows for more DPS at the cost of... cost. EVE RoFs are also slow enough to easily cease fire the exact moment you want to, even with increased fire rates. Imagine the AR with a 25% faster RoF. This will lead to a ton of wasted shots on the operator, and much faster deaths on the part of the target. Also, with faster fire rates comes more severe recoil and dispersion, which is a drawback. SKILLS SHOULD NOT HAVE DRAWBACKS. PERIOD. You cannot toggle a skill on or off, it is stuck the moment you invest. FPS mechanics work differently from EVE ones. |
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6235
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Posted - 2013.09.26 21:54:00 -
[51] - Quote
A ROF increase would not be very useful for something like a tAR, or SCR, or plasma cannon either. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6245
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Posted - 2013.09.27 03:46:00 -
[52] - Quote
More feedback welcomed. |
Summ Dude
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres
34
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Posted - 2013.09.27 11:16:00 -
[53] - Quote
+1. Overall I think you've got a good general set of ideas in place here. I do however have a few notes/suggestions:
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The Uprising 10% damage buff to all weapons needs to be removed. Those who want more damage should spec into assault. Relevant to my proposed assault general bonus.
I'm not really sure this is necessary. I actually think the average time-to-kill was right around where it should be before aim-assist came in and started screwing stuff up.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Assault bonus: 1% light weapon damage per level. Assaults are about offense, so damage should be emphasized.
Amarr bonus: 5% heat buildup reduction per level for laser weaponry. I love this bonus, no need for changing.
Caldari bonus: 5% shield recharge rate per level. Very useful for a shield-based suit.
Gallente bonus: 10% armor repairer efficacy rate per level.
Minmatar bonus: 5% increase in magazine size per level for projectile weapons; SMG and Combat rifle (SoonGäó).
I found it just a little odd that two of these suits have weapon based bonuses, while the other two are more HP-regen based. It seemed like you wanted the suits to have a more streamlined coherent set of bonuses, specifically offensive bonuses for the assault suits. So why not just give them all bonuses to the signature weapon type of that race? Maybe something like:
Caldari bonus: X% increase to range of railgun weapons.
Gallente bonus: X% increase to fire rate of all plasma weapons
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Sentinel bonus: 5% reduction of heavy weapon PG/CPU costs per level. The previous bonus to feedback damage reduction would only be useful for the upcoming heavy Amarr weapon, and would be useless to a player who is good enough to avoid overheating (basically punishing skill).
Similar to your point about assault suits, I feel that Sentinels should be about defense, and that should be reflected in the base suit bonus. I was thinking 1-2% damage resistance per level. This is seems pretty modest, and I think emphasizes the defensive role more. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
1037
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Posted - 2013.09.27 15:28:00 -
[54] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:+1. Overall I think you've got a good general set of ideas in place here. I do however have a few notes/suggestions: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The Uprising 10% damage buff to all weapons needs to be removed. Those who want more damage should spec into assault. Relevant to my proposed assault general bonus.
I'm not really sure this is necessary. I actually think the average time-to-kill was right around where it should be before aim-assist came in and started screwing stuff up. KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Assault bonus: 1% light weapon damage per level. Assaults are about offense, so damage should be emphasized.
Amarr bonus: 5% heat buildup reduction per level for laser weaponry. I love this bonus, no need for changing.
Caldari bonus: 5% shield recharge rate per level. Very useful for a shield-based suit.
Gallente bonus: 10% armor repairer efficacy rate per level.
Minmatar bonus: 5% increase in magazine size per level for projectile weapons; SMG and Combat rifle (SoonGäó).
I found it just a little odd that two of these suits have weapon based bonuses, while the other two are more HP-regen based. It seemed like you wanted the suits to have a more streamlined coherent set of bonuses, specifically offensive bonuses for the assault suits. So why not just give them all bonuses to the signature weapon type of that race? Maybe something like: Caldari bonus: X% increase to range of railgun weapons.
Gallente bonus: X% increase to fire rate of all plasma weapons
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Sentinel bonus: 5% reduction of heavy weapon PG/CPU costs per level. The previous bonus to feedback damage reduction would only be useful for the upcoming heavy Amarr weapon, and would be useless to a player who is good enough to avoid overheating (basically punishing skill). Similar to your point about assault suits, I feel that Sentinels should be about defense, and that should be reflected in the base suit bonus. I was thinking 1-2% damage resistance per level. This seems pretty modest, and I think emphasizes the defensive role more.
As I said above, RoF isn't a good idea. Also, we may want to be careful about altering range profiles, Everyone remembers the Sharpshooter debacle. As for Heavy, there is only one heavy and he has to represent both the Heavy Weapons and the High Defenses. Unless CCP adds a 'Heavy Assault' when they add the rest of the Sentinels, there have to be a few boosts to Heavy Weapons as well as Heavy defenses. Giving them a reload bonus overall and racial tanking individually is a fair compromise. |
True Adamance
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2340
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Posted - 2013.09.27 15:57:00 -
[55] - Quote
I like this. LET IT BE SO! |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6251
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 16:17:00 -
[56] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:+1. Overall I think you've got a good general set of ideas in place here. I do however have a few notes/suggestions: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The Uprising 10% damage buff to all weapons needs to be removed. Those who want more damage should spec into assault. Relevant to my proposed assault general bonus.
I'm not really sure this is necessary. I actually think the average time-to-kill was right around where it should be before aim-assist came in and started screwing stuff up. KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Assault bonus: 1% light weapon damage per level. Assaults are about offense, so damage should be emphasized.
Amarr bonus: 5% heat buildup reduction per level for laser weaponry. I love this bonus, no need for changing.
Caldari bonus: 5% shield recharge rate per level. Very useful for a shield-based suit.
Gallente bonus: 10% armor repairer efficacy rate per level.
Minmatar bonus: 5% increase in magazine size per level for projectile weapons; SMG and Combat rifle (SoonGäó).
I found it just a little odd that two of these suits have weapon based bonuses, while the other two are more HP-regen based. It seemed like you wanted the suits to have a more streamlined coherent set of bonuses, specifically offensive bonuses for the assault suits. So why not just give them all bonuses to the signature weapon type of that race? Maybe something like: Caldari bonus: X% increase to range of railgun weapons.
Gallente bonus: X% increase to fire rate of all plasma weapons
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Sentinel bonus: 5% reduction of heavy weapon PG/CPU costs per level. The previous bonus to feedback damage reduction would only be useful for the upcoming heavy Amarr weapon, and would be useless to a player who is good enough to avoid overheating (basically punishing skill). Similar to your point about assault suits, I feel that Sentinels should be about defense, and that should be reflected in the base suit bonus. I was thinking 1-2% damage resistance per level. This seems pretty modest, and I think emphasizes the defensive role more.
Good idea. I could make the resistance the bonus for sentinels
I don't really like giving the Gallente sentinel the same bonus as the Gallente assault, anyone has a better bonus idea to differentiate the heavy and assault?
Also, since Amarr both shield and armor tank in Dust (unlike EVE from what I understand), any ideas for a shield bonus to couple with an armor bonus that would not infringe on the Caldari sentinel's bonus? or should it just be left alone? |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6256
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 18:12:00 -
[57] - Quote
Did some changes
Assault bonus: 5% light weapon PG/CPU reduction per lv. Assaults are about offense, weapons should be emphasized. Caldari bonus: 3% range increase of railgun weapons per lv; good for sniper, rail rifle (SoonGäó), & magsec SMG(SoonGäó). Gallente bonus: 1% damage per level of plasma weapons; AR, shotgun, plasma cannon. Minmatar bonus: 5% increase in magazine size per lv for projectile & explosive weapons; SMG, flaylock, MD, & Combat rifle (SoonGäó).
Sentinel bonus: 3% resistance to light weapons per lv; this is to emphasize the defensive nature of sentinels. Am bonus: 2% per lv armor plate + shield extender bonus. Amarr are about HP, and dual tank in Dust (unlike in EVE). Cal bonus: 5% shield recharge rate per lv. |
BursegSardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
251
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Posted - 2013.09.27 19:05:00 -
[58] - Quote
Excellent work here. I agree with just about every single bonus in this layout. There is wayyy too much nonsense in the current setup.
+1 |
Cosgar
ParagonX
5515
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Posted - 2013.09.27 19:14:00 -
[59] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Did some changes
Assault bonus: 5% light weapon PG/CPU reduction per lv. Assaults are about offense, weapons should be emphasized. Caldari bonus: 3% range increase of railgun weapons per lv; good for sniper, rail rifle (SoonGäó), & magsec SMG(SoonGäó). Gallente bonus: 1% damage per level of plasma weapons; AR, shotgun, plasma cannon. Minmatar bonus: 5% increase in magazine size per lv for projectile & explosive weapons; SMG, flaylock, MD, & Combat rifle (SoonGäó).
Sentinel bonus: 3% resistance to light weapons per lv; this is to emphasize the defensive nature of sentinels. Am bonus: 2% per lv armor plate + shield extender bonus. Amarr are about HP, and dual tank in Dust (unlike in EVE). Cal bonus: 5% shield recharge rate per lv. I'd probably change the shield recharge rate bonus to shield recharger efficacy and give the bonus to the Minmatar. Minmatar heavy will probably the the squishiest but have a crazy shield regen. Caldari heavy should have the highest shield buffer with a 5% extender bonus.
Again, you should probably try to better generalize logi bonuses for a variety of equipment. The bonuses you have listed would be more fitting for more specialized logistic suit roles in the future. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6261
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 19:49:00 -
[60] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Did some changes
Assault bonus: 5% light weapon PG/CPU reduction per lv. Assaults are about offense, weapons should be emphasized. Caldari bonus: 3% range increase of railgun weapons per lv; good for sniper, rail rifle (SoonGäó), & magsec SMG(SoonGäó). Gallente bonus: 1% damage per level of plasma weapons; AR, shotgun, plasma cannon. Minmatar bonus: 5% increase in magazine size per lv for projectile & explosive weapons; SMG, flaylock, MD, & Combat rifle (SoonGäó).
Sentinel bonus: 3% resistance to light weapons per lv; this is to emphasize the defensive nature of sentinels. Am bonus: 2% per lv armor plate + shield extender bonus. Amarr are about HP, and dual tank in Dust (unlike in EVE). Cal bonus: 5% shield recharge rate per lv. I'd probably change the shield recharge rate bonus to shield recharger efficacy and give the bonus to the Minmatar. Minmatar heavy will probably the the squishiest but have a crazy shield regen. Caldari heavy should have the highest shield buffer with a 5% extender bonus. Again, you should probably try to better generalize logi bonuses for a variety of equipment. The bonuses you have listed would be more fitting for more specialized logistic suit roles in the future. Can you give me your suggestions for the logi bonuses? I'm open to suggestions. |
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