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Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
250
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Posted - 2013.10.01 06:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Logistics bonus: 5% reduction of PG/CPU of equipment per lv.
Am bonus: 1 armor repair HP/s per lv. As a combat logi (has a sidearm), it makes sense to have a bonus to its own survival in addition to the support-centric general logi equipment bonus. I thought about a drop uplink bonus for Amarr logi, but Am logi is the slowest medium frames; not the best suit for setting uplinks.
Cal bonus: 10% more nanite cluster for deployed nanohives per lv. Nahohives are Caldari (names like Ishukone, & blue), so makes sense.
Gal bonus: 5% nanite injector efficacy + 10% inject speed per lv.
Min bonus: 5% repair tool range per lv + 5% repair tool repair rate per lv. Repair tool is Minmatar (names like Core, & brown). The previous hacking speed bonus was ok, but it would work better on a faster suit with more speed and stamina; logis' speeds &/or staminas are inferior compared to the medium frame
The logistics class bonus is good but the racial bonuses(other than the Amarr bonus) leave something to be desired.
Here are some ideas:
Caldari: 1 hp/s shield recharge rate per second per level(always running, recharges even when under fire). Gallente: 2% bonus to armor and armor repair module efficacy per level. Minmatar: 1% bonus to stamina, stamina recovery, movement, and sprint speed per level. |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
253
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Posted - 2013.10.01 20:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:With the exception of the Amarr logi which is meant to be sort of an assault logi, logis are meant for support; their bonuses should reflect that. HP/regen bonuses belong on sentinels since they are the ones who are truly about HP. Survivability as a logistics player is key to being able to do their job. Bonuses to their racial survivability source make sense.
Amarr are dual tanked. Caldari are shield tanked. Gallente are armor tanked. Minmatar are speed tanked.
What you have suggested other than amarr would be more fitting as proficiency skills.
Besides that the skills are only useful in pub matches. In a PC match: - Nobody lives long enough to need more ammo(and chances are that if a hive is dropped it will be destroyed before it uses it's standard amount of clusters - especially now that WP will be gained for destroying equipment). - Nobody uses injectors as it's usually a suicide mission. - Very few players use repair tools(even more so now when you can't see friendly health).
Equipment/module/weapon specific bonuses are bad because not everyone uses those items plus their dubious value in end game matches.
The racial bonuses you have suggested would equal a double nerf to logistics players(removing armor repair and giving players a useless racial skill).
General bonuses over specific bonuses are what should be looked at. Things that are useful regardless of your fitting.
Maybe for Caldari the shield becomes hardened vs anti shield weaponry by 1% per level, something similar for Gallente, the Minmatar mobility suggestion I posted earlier. |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
253
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Posted - 2013.10.01 22:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:How things currently work in PC is a bunch of Cal logis running around with duvolles. Logi survivabiliy make them preferable to assaults for assaulting. The extra 1 module slot compared to assaults (or extra 2 mod slots in the case of the Cal logi) is enough to give the logis higher survivability; use it to fit an extra repairer, armor plate, or shield extender. Not every battle is PC, in fact the overwhelming majority of players who play Dust has never played PC, so its ridiculous to have everything designed for PC. The fact that certain equipment is not used in PC perhaps means that those equipments need buffs, it doesn't mean that a specialization designed to carry more equipment should not get a bonus to equipment. Currently PC is all about forge guns and mass drivers from high locations - far fewer Caldari logistics suits recently(since it's debuff).
PG and CPU reduction to equipment is a bonus to equipment. An additional bonus to specific equipment isn't really a bonus(especially if that equipment goes unused). The logistics class doesn't need another bonus to equipment.
The failure of injectors, hives, and repair tools can not be fixed by any kind of buff as the issues are in their core mechanics.
As for balancing for PC, any bonus that works in PC will work in pubs while the inverse is not true. |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
257
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Posted - 2013.10.04 14:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:The fitting reduction, unless they changed it after I chose my Dropsuit spec, is for Gallente Logi only yes? The bonus being moved to the entire Logi tree makes sense, even if I will miss my free armor reps. The further bonuses to specific equipment are meant to give each Logi a seperate specific role. Is your corp full of heavies and Gallente? Get a few Minmatar Logi to aid your armor reppers so they can afford to brick tank. Do your tactics rely on defending positions? Grab a CalLogi for the extended life hives. Also, I have to rely on the 'EVE does it too' argument here. Take a look at the Scythe here, every bonus is on the Shield Transporter. You COULD equip a remote armor repper to it... if you REALLY wanted to. Mildly brain-damaged, but it can be done. Secondly, the hives, injectors, and reppers do not 'fail' unless you are milking WP. I don't begrudge you for doing so, but the WP rewards should not be counted as part of the 'effectiveness' of equipment. The GalLogi using the injectors makes sense, as Gal are fast and have decent armor, allowing them to rush out into a non-safe zone and perform triage. The Minny with the repper makes sense as well, as they are the fastest Logi at standard movement speed, so they can keep up with their patients while healing. For these tools in general, the Repair Tool allows for infinite, precision armor repair on the go, while the Injector provides the unequaled service of revival and loss prevention. I can stab people with it and not have it fail, so it works fine in its role. The Repair Tool isn't really underpowered either, it could use a small buff and a Shield version, but the real problem there is the Triage Hives being a tad OP. Even then, the Triage Hives are limited, and run out quickly if abused. Finally, I won't pretend to know what goes on in PC. As of right now it is a competitive gaming zone, and therefore I feel it is a cancer. However, a bonus should be applied to the GAME, NOT to the competitive metagame. You don't see anyone in competitive TF2 use anything but a select few guns, no matter how many are made and added to the game. This is because the metagame decides which are the best of the best, and people only use them. If a developer designs with the metagame at the forefront, the game itself will wither as a result. I like the equipment fitting reduction skill(I like the HP/s more but it seems to be the most hated thing the logistics suits currently have so whatever).
The problem with using the Scythe as an example is that it's designed specifically for one thing while the logistics suit is designed for many things.
Hives, injectors, and repair tools work just fine in pubs. They fail utterly in PC except in extremely rare circumstances but resources used by them would be better used elsewhere at all other times.
I'm not asking that the bonuses be focused on PC, what I want are bonuses that are useful in the entire game(both pubs and PC). That being said I believe that if a bonus is useful in PC it will be useful in pubs. |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
261
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Posted - 2013.10.04 19:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
I want a general bonus to the role based on the race. I don't want a bonus to a piece of equipment that it just so happens is made by that race. For example the Minmatar hacking bonus isn't the greatest for a logi, but at least it can be useful independent of your fitting.
Here is what I mean by the equipment not being useful in PC:
The first thing you need to know is that you die quickly and often.
Weapons do so much damage that repairing is not likely to happen and if it does it takes 2 players out of the match until repping is complete. If you are playing pocket logi then the heavy might survive for a few seconds longer when fighting multiple enemies(you are almost always fighting multiple enemies). A scanner is far more valuable to have in your hands than a repair tool is.
When an ally dies they are most likely in an area covered my multiple enemies, attempting to pick him up will result in your death(most likely before you can pick him up) and clearing the area beforehand is difficult if not impossible. Again, 2 clones out of the match. It's generally quicker to respawn than it is to revive and pick up your ally. Also of note is that a clone that dies from explosive damage can not be revived - a substantial amount of deaths are caused by explosive weaponry(forge guns, mass drivers, and grenades).
Nanohives offer slight utility in that you can resupply your grenades. Chances are you will be dead before you run out of ammo, and the fact that you can't get revived or healed means you usually won't need to replenish your ammo. |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
264
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Posted - 2013.10.09 07:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I'm about to change the proposal, I need ideas. I can't use the max units carried for deployables thing since even if I round up, It will still be useless at early levels. The range Idea is great (Repair tool range, active scanner range, active scanner range, nanohive supply radius). I'm also thinking of an efficacy bonus (effects repair rate of repair tool, nanohive resupply rate, active scanner precision, RE/PM, RE max spawns) I need a third idea.
OPENED TO SUGGESTIONS I like these suggestions as they are useful without being specific while being focused on equipment.
For a third idea what about an equipment cool down reduction. It would be very useful for active scanners(maybe too useful) but would also affect uplinks(I have no idea why they have a cool down) and explosives(there will likely be future equipment with cool downs as well). |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
265
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Posted - 2013.10.09 08:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Maybe change the skill to speed increase for equipment. Hives would pulse faster(same amount of clusters with the same amount of ammo replenished but simply faster), uplinks would spawn quicker, scan rate would be quicker but time showing would remain the same. There is an overlap with the repair tool and the efficacy option(efficacy repairs more, but this one repairs more often - should equal out to be the same amount repaired over the same time period). Perhaps this could be used in conjunction with cool downs but it may not be necessary.
It's basically overclocking your equipment. |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
267
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Posted - 2013.10.10 01:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Agreed. Good work. Logis are in great condition.
I do have a few suggestions though:
Gallente Assault may become too powerful with the extra damage percentage. Considering that many of the weapons are slow to reload and have high DPS or alpha damage maybe a reduction to reload time would be an option.
Conversely the commando reload speed isn't as useful as I presume the player will switch to their other weapon when one is depleted. The damage increase for racial light weapons may fit better for commandos as they are light weapon specialists. |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
267
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Posted - 2013.10.10 03:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Gallente assault would only have 5% more damage than other assaults. Other assaults get things like bigger magazines, less heat buildup (higher damage potential for laser rifle), and more range (remember how big an advantage sharpshooter was in Chromosome?).
I don't like damage for commandos, seems to assault-y I'm actually thinking about how powerful the AR is now that hit detection has been improved. We are going to end up with a predominant amount of players going Gallente assault simply because the AR gets a bonus to damage(it will be like the Caldari logi suit all over again).
Reload speed doesn't seem to fit with the commando. I'm not sure what would be a useful skill for it though. |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
267
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Posted - 2013.10.10 15:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
The current extra carried for deployable equipment isn't that great(would be awesome for the compact nanohive though). If it were for number deployed it would be OP(I could drop 29 proto uplinks on one suit - and currently equipment spam is causing lag so it's not such a good idea right now).
The equipment speed bonus was good for the Minmatar logi. The only equipment without any benefit would be the REs and PEs(could reduce the cooldown on these as well if needed but I don't think it is).
Also a suggestion - use your reserved posts to preserve old proposals as it may help people think of a new one or say that they like it.
hackerzilla wrote:I agree w/ all except min logi's bonus is kinda ****** because most equipment don't get a bonus for this. Also the ammar scout's bonus kinda seems too niche and not versatile enough. Active Scanner? Yes - cooldown is reduced Drop Uplinks? Yes - spawn time is reduced Nanite Injectors? Yes - speed is increased Nanohives? Yes - pulses more often Proximity Explosives? No Remote Explosives? No Repair Tool? Yes - repairs quicker(ie at proto level the repair tool would do the same amount of healing in 0.75 seconds where it would normally take 1 second) |
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Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
269
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Posted - 2013.10.14 01:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cosgar wrote:Is it just me or is this topic just another nerf logi campaign? Not everything is about logis. I covered 5 specializations. Maybe you're just too defensive to see how silly and completely arbitrary the current bonuses are. Bonuses should emphasize the role of the suit. If you want a logi to have a bonus best suited for something else, then perhaps you should be playing as that something else instead. I listened to your complaints, and made bonuses more generalized instead of being for 1 specific equipment. Why did you feel the need to change the equipment speed bonus for the Minmatar logi to a relatively useless carried equipment bonus? There's no point in carrying 7 of something if I can only deploy 2 at a time.. |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
269
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Posted - 2013.10.14 02:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Stile451 wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cosgar wrote:Is it just me or is this topic just another nerf logi campaign? Not everything is about logis. I covered 5 specializations. Maybe you're just too defensive to see how silly and completely arbitrary the current bonuses are. Bonuses should emphasize the role of the suit. If you want a logi to have a bonus best suited for something else, then perhaps you should be playing as that something else instead. I listened to your complaints, and made bonuses more generalized instead of being for 1 specific equipment. Why did you feel the need to change the equipment speed bonus for the Minmatar logi to a relatively useless carried equipment bonus? There's no point in carrying 7 of something if I can only deploy 2 at a time. I felt the equipment speed thing was kind of useless compared to the others. The new proposed bonus allows you to have more equipment left over if you find a better spot; personally I hate using up both nanohives or my only compact nanohive, and finding a much better spot a minute later (also applies to uplinks). Also its pretty great for explosives. I could edit the proposal to also increase maximum amount of deployables that can be active also, what do you think? You're underestimating how useful faster equipment would be.
As for increasing the number of active equipment I don't think it should be done(at least not per level - as much as I'd like to build a giant Alfred E. Neuman out of uplinks it would be too much). That and too much deployed equipment lags the game(although we can hopefully ignore that as it will likely get fixed).
How about this? Level 1: +1 Carried Level 2: +1 Deployed Level 3: +1 Carried Level 4: +1 Deployed Level 5: +1 Carried
You would end up with 3 extra carried and 2 extra deployable. This would keep it useful without it being too powerful.
I would accept that or faster equipment(they would be equally useful to me). That being said extra equipment would be more useful to more players.
While I would miss the hacking speed I would find either of the above more useful more of the tume(I would be spending the exorbitant amount of SP to get Codebreaking up to level 5). |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
270
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Posted - 2013.10.15 05:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Stile451 wrote:As for increasing the number of active equipment I don't think it should be done(at least not per level - as much as I'd like to build a giant Alfred E. Neuman out of uplinks it would be too much). That and too much deployed equipment lags the game(although we can hopefully ignore that as it will likely get fixed).
How about this? Level 1: +1 Carried Level 2: +1 Deployed Level 3: +1 Carried Level 4: +1 Deployed Level 5: +1 Carried
You would end up with 3 extra carried and 2 extra deployable. This would keep it useful without it being too powerful.
I would accept that or faster equipment(they would be equally useful to me). That being said extra equipment would be more useful to more players.
While I would miss the hacking speed I would find either of the above more useful more of the tume(I would be spending the exorbitant amount of SP to get Codebreaking up to level 5). I like this idea a lot, though I'm not sure it could realistically be implemented. I don't know if CCP can make skills work that way. Could just make it a percentage; 50% max carried + 50 max deployed per level. When maxed out it would 250% more carried and deployed, is is 3x more if it rounds up. Those percentages are far too high(remember percentages are in addition to the base amount).
10-20% per level for deployed and 20-30% carried would prevent it from becoming too terrifying(at 20% one proto suit could have 18 active uplinks, at 10% only 14 could be active rounding up). There would be dead levels if handled by percentage.
CCP can do skills at +1 per level(scrambler pistols get +1 magazine size per level), but I'm not sure about alternating increases(if not it could be added in with the coding changes to equipment that are coming SOONGäó). |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
270
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Posted - 2013.10.16 22:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Logistics mean healers. What we have here is a lack of a role for utilitarian equipment users, so they have meshed it with Logistics for the time being. The Logistics role will eventually focus on the White Mage 'skillset' in an MMO, of that I have unwavering faith. It is you who doesn't understand what a Logistics class is meant to do, and I shall have an Amarr RPer recite a prayer for you, for you know not what you do. Logistics, while including health care, is more concerned with moving troops, supplies, and equipment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_logistics |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
272
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Posted - 2013.10.18 04:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:To Stile, I know what the term means in dictionary terms, but Logistics is the EVE term for the repairing units that prevent financial loss. If we used the dictionary term for Logistics, then all LAVs, Dropships, and anything that can carry equipment would all count as a 'Logistics' role. I don't play Eve but from what I've read logistics ships also offer energy transfer and targeting buffs. I didn't see any general use Eve equivalent to the rest of the Dust equipment but I believe that is because Eve is more complicated in that the roles of the equipment in Dust cannot be fulfilled by a piece of equipment in Eve. |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
273
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Posted - 2013.10.20 03:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Stile451 wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:To Stile, I know what the term means in dictionary terms, but Logistics is the EVE term for the repairing units that prevent financial loss. If we used the dictionary term for Logistics, then all LAVs, Dropships, and anything that can carry equipment would all count as a 'Logistics' role. I don't play Eve but from what I've read logistics ships also offer energy transfer and targeting buffs. I didn't see any general use Eve equivalent to the rest of the Dust equipment but I believe that is because Eve is more complicated in that the roles of the equipment in Dust cannot be fulfilled by a piece of equipment in Eve. Those are other 'Logistics' functions, but they aren't the main ones. There tend to be other ships built just for these, just as there are ships built just for Shield Transporters/Remote Armor Repairers. Energy Transfer is used to keep capacitor intensive ships cap-stable and targeting links are meant to increase the rotation speed of turrets to allow them to betterd hit smaller/faster targets. Unless they are adding capacitors with the vehicle restructuring, we have no capacitor equivalent in DUST, and even then it would probably be an LLAV or LDS thing. As for targeting links, the only thing I could think of as an analog would just screw with everyone's sensitivity, and that would be a griefing tool, not a Logistics one. It's not just rotation speed but range buffs as well. Just because they are secondary bonuses doesn't mean they aren't logistics skills.
It's a bit of a stretch but energy transfer could be considered similar to nanohives(in that they both replenish a resource) and targeting buffs could be considered similar to the active scanner(both aid in target acquisition). |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
274
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Posted - 2013.10.21 03:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
I was remarking solely on dropsuits(that's what this thread is about after all but I would love to see a capacitor based power management system for vehicles). I was comparing Eve functions to Dust functions(as you said not the same but they do affect similar attributes or in the case of nanohives restores or prolongs your ability to fight).
Whether they match or not isn't really relevant, what is relevant is that in Eve logistics ships aren't solely about healing - that may be their primary use but it's not their only intended use. I presume that this is how it is with logistics suits in Dust(or maybe they're using the real definition of logistics in Dust). |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
275
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Posted - 2013.10.22 06:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
If we ever get more equipment(likely not going to happen for a very long time) it would be easier to make a medic class and tweak the current logistics class(names don't really matter so call it what you will). |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
275
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Posted - 2013.10.23 16:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Also, the naming conventions matter Mr. Stile. They are one of the major linking factors between DUST and EVE and give us reasonable expectations of what we are getting into when we choose a specialization. If I chose Heavy but he ended up being the fast, agile, low-HP guy, I'd be damn irritated at the crappy naming, wouldn't you? Conversely, if I wanted to drop equipment and generally help my team in a supporting role with no interest in healing but got stuck as a medic I certainly wouldn't be happy.
Dust names are generally accurate an in line with the standards set out in the FPS world, but not in the case of logistics if it were to be turned into a medic type class. If this were to happen Dust would require a tutorial that explains the different classes general usage, strengths and weaknesses at the very least. |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
275
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Posted - 2013.10.23 22:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:A tutorial would be fine, but I do not understand your point. If you want to be the Engineer, you would choose the Engineer suit. Also, Logistics means healer in New Eden, as we have already discussed to clonedeath and CRU, so you should already know that Logistics is Medic. If I went into some other game and didn't bother to learn its naming conventions before settling into a role, I'd probably be in a role I don't like. That makes sense. It's be like playing Final Fantasy and going 'Oh, I'll be a White Mage because they cast spells!' and then being irritated that they only know Cure. The only point I am trying to make, which you have noted, is that players will have certain expectations of what a class will be based on it's name and their previous gaming experience. It's fine to follow traditional game lore but an explanation is required for those who aren't fully conversant in that lore(myself for example - even after watching several hours worth of Eve gameplay I didn't even know there was a logistics class of vessels).
Everything would be fine as long as there was a tutorial. We do not need to discuss this topic any further. |
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