to keep me from maxing the skill tree in 3 months....

if there was no cap I would have about 50 million SP by now.. 6 months later.

that is why there is a SP cap. cause these kind of games will always have people like me ;P

- Is way to make people buy SP boosters

* Active skill boosters do not increase skill point cap - this is by design.

...That does not make sense.



The aim of the skill cap is to ensure players progress through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players.

...That does not make sense.



The aim of the skill cap is to ensure players progress through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players.

The aim of the skill cap is to ensure players progress through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players.

...That does not make sense.



The aim of the skill cap is to ensure players progress through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players.

...That does not make sense.



The aim of the skill cap is to ensure players progress through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players.

Yeah, hows this working out so far?

LOL

Out of 90% of the new players mouth, " SP gap is to much. "

...That does not make sense.



The aim of the skill cap is to ensure players progress through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players.

That's a good point. I had a friend start playing DUST a few days ago and we squadded up. He told me how he had ~700K SP and then asked how many I had which I then told him pushing 9mil, his reaction was - f***.

to keep me from maxing the skill tree in 3 months....

if there was no cap I would have about 50 million SP by now.. 6 months later.

that is why there is a SP cap. cause these kind of games will always have people like me ;P

I know that if I was not in the closed beta and did not have 10 million SP I would not be playing this game.
Flame all you want but 90% of the vets would not play this game if they had to start from scratch.

And STFU to anyone that will get on here and say that you would play even if you didn't have your 10+ Million SP's

You don't have a job, school, social life?

full time job, family of 4, weekend cottage...

and still in playing 5-6 hours a day have a boatload of SP

but thanks for the attempted troll, it failed with grace ;)

You don't have a job, school, social life?

...That does not make sense.



The aim of the skill cap is to ensure players progress through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players.

to keep me from maxing the skill tree in 3 months....

if there was no cap I would have about 50 million SP by now.. 6 months later.

that is why there is a SP cap. cause these kind of games will always have people like me ;P

...That does not make sense.



The aim of the skill cap is to ensure players progress through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players.

* Active skill boosters do not increase skill point cap - this is by design.

'New and veteran players' isn't the same thing as 'casual and hardcore players'.

Personally I would raise the SP cap to 1 mil SP per week, with a corresponding increase in the SP formula per battle I.e. each battle would give more SP then it currently produces.

If I remember correctly to max out everything comes to 282 mil SP which would take over 13.5 years with boosters under this revised cap and does not factor in future additions to the skill tree but it would allow new players the ability to produce a decent fit within 5-10 weeks while the rest of us would be working on our 2nd or 3rd fit.

I know that if I was not in the closed beta and did not have 10 million SP I would not be playing this game.
Flame all you want but 90% of the vets would not play this game if they had to start from scratch.

And STFU to anyone that will get on here and say that you would play even if you didn't have your 10+ Million SP's

You missed a digit there...

Edit: my bad I missed revised. Carry on.

...That does not make sense.



The aim of the skill cap is to ensure players progress through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players.

And the next line of that quote is:

"* The extra SP earned from the active skill boosters do not count towards your skill point cap. "

naughty. Playing with my calcs.

For those going urmmmmm here is the rough calc

Cap 1 mil SP
With booster - 1.5 mil SP per week
52 weeks = 78 mil SP

282 divided by 78 = 3.61 years.

Which also means that once you reach your cap, your Active booster bonus will be based on a 1SP for each WP to a maximum of 1,000 SP (1,500 SP with an Active Booster). Not very much an incentive to sell more booster if once you reached the cap you only get 500 SP/per battle as maximum bonus is it?

Just to mention that as well; The SP Cap has been modified several times in the past, and who knows, it could be altered again in the future. Feel free to share some feedback in the appropriate section if needed.

Just don't even bother playing after you cap, why should anybody keep playing a horrible game after he/she hits the cap. I have previously stated my point of view on this matter and have been shot down by other players, maintaining the gap between play is just funny segregation

Can I get you on record as saying that the entire skill system acts as something of a crutch to players whose actual playing ability would not be on the same level as their peers?

naughty. Playing with my calcs.

For those going urmmmmm here is the rough calc

Cap 1 mil SP
With booster - 1.5 mil SP per week
52 weeks = 78 mil SP

282 divided by 78 = 3.61 years.

With that much playing time I bet youll max out the skill tree before the Cubs win a pennant

...That does not make sense.



The aim of the skill cap is to ensure players progress through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players.

CCP said that to max out a character it would take 7 years, so the SP should be:

282/7= 40 <---40M exp a year
40/53=0.75 <--750K exp a week, rounded to 53 since 1 year is 52.11 weeks
The SP cap should be 750K exp a week.

Building a decent fit takes about 7M SP

7 / .75= 9.3 or 2 months and 4 days,it would take a hardcore new player 2 months and 4 days to catch up to a veteran, this is rather fair even if the veteran is also hardcore playing. Mostly because after you can build 1 proto build you can't really go above that, you go for tanks or LAVs but after 7M SP, or the SP to build 1 proto suit, SP becomes a luxury. Also if we account for passive SP then it would take a newbie 7.62 weeks or 1 month 23 days.

Lets use the current SP cap:
190K a week
190 x 52.11= 9.9M SP a year
282/9.9 = 28.48 years to max out a character
This is... I don't even think I will be alive by them, I will be 50 years old before I max my character out! I think my ps3 would have died 7 times over before I max out.

I do not support a cap whatsever, but if there is to be a rework of the cap it should be increased to at least 750K.

Feedback section is worthless, there are 30+ threads over the same topic that have been there for several months and we are still where we were left on January

The skill cap was originally introduces as a daily one and players were consulted about the change prior to it changing to a weekly one. Again, it is not impossible for the current cap to change again in the future.

CCP said that to max out a character it would take 7 years, so the SP should be:

282/7= 40 <---40M exp a year
40/53=0.75 <--750K exp a week, rounded to 53 since 1 year is 52.11 weeks
The SP cap should be 750K exp a week.

Building a decent fit takes about 7M SP

7 / .75= 9.3 or 2 months and 4 days,it would take a hardcore new player 2 months and 4 days to catch up to a veteran, this is rather fair even if the veteran is also hardcore playing. Mostly because after you can build 1 proto build you can't really go above that, you go for tanks or LAVs but after 7M SP, or the SP to build 1 proto suit, SP becomes a luxury. Also if we account for passive SP then it would take a newbie 7.62 weeks or 1 month 23 days.

Lets use the current SP cap:
190K a week
190 x 52.11= 9.9M SP a year
282/9.9 = 28.48 years to max out a character
This is... I don't even think I will be alive by them, I will be 50 years old before I max my character out! I think my ps3 would have died 7 times over before I max out.

I do not support a cap whatsever, but if there is to be a rework of the cap it should be increased to at least 750K.

My calc was based on changing the SP Cap to 1 mil SP (or 1.5 mil SP with booster) per week. It is not based on the existing cap.

Which also means that once you reach your cap, your Active booster bonus will be based on a 1SP for each WP to a maximum of 1,000 SP (1,500 SP with an Active Booster). Not very much an incentive to sell more booster if once you reached the cap you only get 500 SP/per battle as maximum bonus is it?

Just to mention that as well; The SP Cap has been modified several times in the past, and who knows, it could be altered again in the future. Feel free to share some feedback in the appropriate section if needed.

CCP said it would take 7 years to max all skills not max one character. If you are a closed beta tester and maxed out since the beginning you probably have 1 character with skills maxed out or nearly so. That is in 6 or so months of grind

Simply because a thread doesn't get a DEV tag on it does not mean it gets ignored. By putting your thread in the appropriate section you will ensure your feedback get as much attention as possible. Believe me, we do read a lot of stuff on those forums (Yes, even the silly threads! ).

The skill cap was originally introduces as a daily one and players were consulted about the change prior to it changing to a weekly one. Again, it is not impossible for the current cap to change again in the future.

Again, it is not impossible for the current cap to change again in the future.

Once again, we would like to remind you that weekly skill point rollover system is being worked on and that this is just the temporary solution that we are implementing.

I also want to comment, that making such a large amount of our weekly SP in the form of 'active' SP, makes this game feel like work.

Every time something changes and say.. a gun is no longer fun or viable, the 1-2 million SP we put into that gun feels like we lost weeks and weeks of effort. And it makes the majority of us upset when that happens.

Honestly.. the idea of active SP is to keep people playing the games, and I understand that, but its also hurting this game more than anything, cause people are constantly having to 'work' to get that next unlock.

In eve, you set your skills and then play the game to have fun or metagame or whatever, but you arent grinding and working for that SP.

Shifting the weekly pool of available SP from majority active to majority passive would help this game feel more fun, a lot more fun.

If you can get 500k / week with boosters, and 300k of that is active = work/grind to advance.

If it was more like 50-100k of that was active = small bonus for playing (sweet) but not required week after week until you can finally settle into a good fit at 15 million SP at which point you're so burned out you wanna just quit the game anyways.

My calc was based on changing the SP Cap to 1 mil SP (or 1.5 mil SP with booster) per week. It is not based on the existing cap.

I am comparing the current cap with what CCP intended was to be the length to *max all skills* I wasnt calling you out or anything on your calculations

Could you explain the difference between maxing out a character and maxing out all skills? Aren't they the same thing...

I am comparing the current cap with what CCP intended was to be the length to *max all skills* I wasnt calling you out or anything on your calculations

The voting options never included removing the skill point cap sadly..... considering the population of the sever and the amount of votes it is sad. Hopefully a change happens next year at least......


Soon TM

By maxing out a character I mean you have a specialty pretty much leveled plus the basic skills. For example my main character specialization is an Amarr logi. If I had Amarr logistics drop suit to level 5, Dropsuit core upgrades level 5, Shield and armor upgrades all level 5, Nanocircutry 5, Uplink 5, repair tool level 5, and all the skills associated with the 2 main weapons I use leveled to 5. That would be a maxed specialty.

Note I would still have no skills in vehicles, other dropsuits, other weaposn, etc...

My bad on poor terminology usage

Furthermore I do think there should be someway of adequately influencing sp to give an advantage to a player that plays more casually vs a hardcore player. Like in WoW you got a bonus to experience if you hadn't played in awhile.

I'd just like to say that I'm glad this thread is staying constructive and we are all having a legitimate discussion about the topic at hand and have not resorted to trolling or flaming.

I commend you all.

It should be noted that the vast community was extremely happy at the time with changing the old skill system. 20k a day and having to log in every single day was crazy. It was making me go insane, but now that is has improved we need another improvement, but it should NOT be PRIORITIZED OVER AIMING!

Goodjob troll bait

By maxing out a character I mean you have a specialty pretty much leveled plus the basic skills. For example my main character specialization is an Amarr logi. If I had Amarr logistics drop suit to level 5, Dropsuit core upgrades level 5, Shield and armor upgrades all level 5, Nanocircutry 5, Uplink 5, repair tool level 5, and all the skills associated with the 2 main weapons I use leveled to 5. That would be a maxed specialty.

Note I would still have no skills in vehicles, other dropsuits, other weaposn, etc...

My bad on poor terminology usage

Furthermore I do think there should be someway of adequately influencing sp to give an advantage to a player that plays more casually vs a hardcore player. Like in WoW you got a bonus to experience if you hadn't played in awhile.

...That does not make sense.



The aim of the skill cap is to ensure players progress through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players.

That's a pretty decent suggestion. Might I suggest you to share that over here?

I ll try to get some more info about where we stand on the rolling cap. Hopefully CCP Frame can provide some more info about that.

I think I like this idea, but not no extreme. Currently if you're using omega boosters you get like 340k sp a week in passive. I get like another 290k in active and maybe 50 matches more averaging around 1400 sp a battle. So yeah because I have like 15 mill (and not burned out yet ) decrease my sp to like 200k a week with boosters, make boosters put veterans on par with unboosted sp to prevent hardcore vets from continuing to increase the gap

What Shadow heat said makes PERFECTLY good sense. Belittling and laughing at him doesn't speak well of your true intentions, imho


Alternatively, your given explanation of what you "claim" to be the truth of the matter, makes "very little" sense given the FACTS about the situation in-game.
In fact, you practically VALIDATE Shadow's post during your "corrective" explanation.

That cap is freaking brutal on new players.
It's #1 among the reasons that I've talked no less than 20+ friends and coworkers out of downloading and trying this game just during this past week alone (sending them to check out Last of Us, instead, in every single case. That's PAYING consumers that inquired with me about Dust514, open to downloading and playing it during the past week, that each surprisingly had heard nothing of Last of Us with the exception of one, and are ALL currently playing Last of Us and NOT playing Dust...... or as I've been putting it "not touch Dust even with a 10 foot pole").

Dismiss, belittle, and even berate your active playerbase more, CCP. That will work out well for you... trust me. (do I really need to add the sarcasm tag here?)

What Shadow heat said makes PERFECTLY good sense. Belittling and laughing at him doesn't speak well of your true intentions, imho


Alternatively, your given explanation of what you "claim" to be the truth of the matter, makes "very little" sense given the FACTS about the situation in-game.
In fact, you practically VALIDATE Shadow's post during your "corrective" explanation.

That cap is freaking brutal on new players.
It's #1 among the reasons that I've talked no less than 20+ friends and coworkers out of downloading and trying this game just during this past week alone (sending them to check out Last of Us, instead, in every single case. That's PAYING consumers that inquired with me about Dust514, open to downloading and playing it during the past week, that each surprisingly had heard nothing of Last of Us with the exception of one, and are ALL currently playing Last of Us and NOT playing Dust...... or as I've been putting it "not touch Dust even with a 10 foot pole").

Dismiss, belittle, and even berate your active playerbase more, CCP. That will work out well for you... trust me. (do I really need to add the sarcasm tag here?)

Honestly I think if they implemented matchmaking then it would mitigate all this QQ'ing over the skill cap.

Thing about the cap is that is preserves a distance between vets and newbs rather than protecting against it. This is because having the entire skill tree maxed out or just having one build maxed out gives you the same advantage in a firefight versus a new player. Removing cap would do much more to allow new players to feel like they control closing that gap. As it is, a new player simply cannot close the gap in fewer than three or four months no matter how good they are or how much they play. For many, this gives a sense of all those games being more or less pointless and not having control over your own destiny.

By this i mean: Vet has say full proto caldari assault with proto AR and all that jaz. Faces a 1mil SP noob... same out come if he happens to have access to every single proto and tank and everything else. At anyone one time, only your proficiency in one build actually gives you the advantage. So removing cap will make it possible for new players to get that one good build quicker. The advantage to vets is they get to have several builds to choose from, but still, they can only use one at a time. And, in many ways, your first 3-4mil SP are much more potent than say SP 10mil-13mil because you can only get the core upgrades once.

For those people who really want to grind and grind... well they get to have access to everything and then sit there thinking "well, what do I do now?" Those people will exist in every RPG but they really don't affect balance. Again, even if someone had absolutely every skill maxed... they're still only going to have the benefits of one fully skilled build at a time, so any other full skill build should be on equal footing.

Just curious, anyone know the math on fully specing the dropsuit upgrades seciton? Obviously some are more potent than others (Shields and armor 25% probably being the strongest per point).

so a player that dedicates less time to dust should be praised...... amazed

No disrepect intended, but been playing the new shooters of "talkative" developers for over a decade. Not gonna bother clarifying a former post of mine just to clear up misconceptions on your part that are likely fabricated (read: playing dumb)

I could list of a long list of now defunct developers that you've just freakishly reminded me of, but that would be an act of exceeding kindness on my part and I'm just not feeling such motivation currently (akin to what happens when I hit SP cap in-game)

It's your bed, make it however you want. Just know that gamers like myself will ensure that you lie in it. If you're cool with that, then so be it.

Great concept of a game you guys had here. Terrible business model and implementation (in terms of longsightedness), but still a great concept nontheless.
I really wish there was much less pain in your progression system and power level gaps... would be a much more enjoyable "FPS SHOOTER" then. Too bad that's not the case. Enjoy "learning" just what it is that you're doing wrong the hard way.

Read the post above yours, it doesn't take that much sp to get an endgame ready fit. It's not that much different than when I played ragnarok online. I played for months to get my Lord Knight transcended to level 90 (never even completely maxxed him and got kicked around in pvp until I put in the time, if 6 mill sp is all you need to be nearly the same as a top level killer, with half his sp, then whats gives?

So...Take Chicagocubs, the man has like 20mil sp. He has like hmg proficiency 5, forge proficiency 5, smg proficiency 3, shield extension 5, armor upgrades 5, shield upgrades 5, I think he has reload speed up to 3 on each weapon, like hacking 3, electronics 5, powergrid upgrades 5, dropsuit command 3, his heavy suit to 5, he's got skills in armor plating and repping and blah blah blah...he STIL needs/wants reloading to be maxed, he still is now debating getting one of these core godlock pistols, and he still needs to save up for when he gets his 1st (as in he doesn't have a sentinel suit!) racial proto suit. And he plays more than more people combined.

Is it to limit those who have the time to play frequently?

A deterrent to keep dedicated players from playing too much?

A way to ensure that newer players aren't at too much of a disadvantage?

A punishment for playing a game whom one enjoys too much?

A way to keep players from reaching endgame too quickly?

Seriously, what is the point behind the SP cap? I want a legitimate answer as to why when players hit the cap, they are limited to receiving anywhere from 450 - 1500 SP max with an Active Booster equipped.

Then there is the P2W quote that comes up again. Skill points are nice, but they don't guarantee victory on the Battlefield. Believe me, I don't do any better in proto gear over militia one (Yes, yes, yes.... I might not be the best! ;) ).

Im not sure I get what you're saying... the skill tree is designed to make future SP less and less useful per point with the increasing cost of skills, so decreasing someone's SP as they increase in lifetime SP is counter productive.

Not so, if that were the case then each additional skill would increase in sp required regardless of how much sp I have/haven't invested in it. For example it costs only 621k sp I think to max another weapon operation, the same amount as the first...as opposed to making each additional weapon you invested in scale upwards in sp to prevent you from having more and more, thus making sp less useful because all skills scale up in sp price relative to your total, or perhaps relative to your investment is related skills. Same goes with the rest of the tree, the tree doesn't exactly prevent you from making sp less useful, actually it just encourages you to make your character have tons of skills because the highest levels of a skill can cost a lot (it take 2-3 weeks to get level 5 of a racial suit, and about 1-2 weeks to get level 5 proficiency of a weapon, but most of the time you can get the highest level of a skill in a few days if you include a fresh skill cap. (466k for many of the skills) So overall I disagree, the skill point system doesn't make sp less useful. It is not necessarily counter productive to decrease the amount of sp earned to cap out for veterans who have already obtained most of the skills aforementioned that require those large sp investments, and discourages them from becoming Omni Char's with 3 racial proto suits.

You paid for those omega boosters, you should get to use them as they were intended, and if you get 800k a week then thats fine, thats what you paid for. Sure, and if I and those who use them agree to a change in them them why disagree with me?

However, changing the SP allocation to mostly passive would require rebalancing active and passive xp booster pricing. Meaning they would refund the aurum you paid for those omega boosters and then rebalance the pricing on them at which point you could purchase them again at the new price, which would still give you the same amount of SP/$.

active boosters would then be dirt cheap, im think like 2-3 bucks a month, but to some it would be worth it, as they play alot and that sp adds up over time. However everyone will want to keep passive boosters running as much as possible.

It should be around $15 a month (same as an mmo script) to keep passive boosters running, and an omega booster should then be around $25 I guess.

Then offer a subscription that gives a 30 day active + passive for $15 a month. Done.. good to go.

I think it's a solid idea +1

Don't wanna pay for boosters? no problem, you still get majority passive SP and you can play the game a lot for active sp to supplement. Which is the F2P model at its finest, people who can't afford to monetize earn that same currency through playing a lot.

Then do away with SP's and the skill tree all together and allow everyone access to all gear and skills and only play this game for ISK.

With your logic what is the point of grinding for SP?
You all preach all the time that proto gear is no different than militia and the gear don't matter its you skills, blah blah blah!

Why are you forcing us all to grind for SP then?

Oh wait yeah that's right SP boosters = $$$$.

Please!

I can't believe he went to level 5 in Amarr heavy and didn't stop at level 3 and start leveling in Sentinel. That's what I did for Amarr logi. But anyway it sounds like Cubs has almost maxed out his build (much better term). Now if he started on tanks next or maybe a medium frame suit of some sort he would be working on his next build. That is a nother thing, people say newcomers can't catch up, but after about 15 mil or so when you have one build pretty much maxed you are caught up. Everything after that is branching outward to be more versatile, you can't continuously build upwards

Then do away with SP's and the skill tree all together and allow everyone access to all gear and skills and only play this game for ISK.

With your logic what is the point of grinding for SP?
You all preach all the time that proto gear is no different than militia and the gear don't matter its you skills, blah blah blah!

Why are you forcing us all to grind for SP then?

Oh wait yeah that's right SP boosters = $$$$.

Please!

That's just not true though...he still needs to max skills related to reload speed and ammo capacity, and that would put him around 22 mill. Thats a lot of sp.

He's got 2 primary weapons both to proficiency 5 anti-infantry and anti-vehicle so that is almost like having 2 specialties. If he was an assault or maybe even logi he would be about done at this point and on to the next specialty. I'm at almost 13 million and I need to get nanocircutry, uplinks, and reppers from 3 to 5 and get all 5 levels of proficiency for my main weapon and sidearm, thus my figure was a ballpark based on what I estimate I still have to earn and spend to have my logi build "done". So I may have been low balling it a bit.

But my point still is that at some point (where ever that point is) you can only become more versatile due to SP and not anymore powerful.

You can't be serious right? Just unlock everything....no game does that, even in Halo, CoD, other generic multiplayer shooter here, you have to play the game to unlock things like new gear, weapons, custom looks etc..

If you don't like grinding for SP, then don't, you don't want to pay for boosters don't. I really love how you whine about CCP selling boosters to make money, but they aren't a non-profit charity, they need to make money, like any other business.

I'm not very happy with Dust at the moment or the promises CCP makes that it intends to fulfill 5 or 6 years down the road, but I'm not going to begrudge them trying to make some money to pay their bills and keep the devs paid, hell maybe if they sold more boosters they can get developers not based in China probably working for slave wages but can pay some Japanese or Western developers to get this game made properly.

As a skill booster (Active) will be dependent on your reward, if you reached your cap your bonus reward will be marginal (500 SP maximum bonus per battle) and as such I just cannot see why a SP cap would help us sell more boosters.

His point is that without the Active Booster you earn 190k Active SP a week.
If you want more than that you can't really get there by playing more at a mere 1k per match.

However if you buy a booster you can get 285k Active SP in that one week playing the same amount.

Thus the SP cap encourages booster usage to get around it.

That's a pretty decent suggestion. Might I suggest you to share that over here?

I ll try to get some more info about where we stand on the rolling cap. Hopefully CCP Frame can provide some more info about that.

With that much playing time I bet youll max out the skill tree before the Cubs win a pennant

It doesn't matter what system is in place, there will always be a large gap between the new and the old.

The only way to change that is to have all the items static like COD... which takes all the RPG and strategy out of the game.

The best way to fix the overall problem is to make it fun for players at all levels of gameplay. This is where PvE will come in, or loyalty points rewards. Each player needs to feel like they are making a positive impact on the game/match or its not fun.

.....

my vote would be to take active SP out all together... like eve everyone will progress at the same speed depending on implants and such.

I know that if I was not in the closed beta and did not have 10 million SP I would not be playing this game.
Flame all you want but 90% of the vets would not play this game if they had to start from scratch.

And STFU to anyone that will get on here and say that you would play even if you didn't have your 10+ Million SP's

...That does not make sense.



The aim of the skill cap is to ensure players progress through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players.

I think I can see where the disconnect is between what the GM is saying and what the community says.

The GM (and I'm not speaking for him - correct me if I'm wrong) is saying that the active booster tacks on +50% to whatever you would normally gain, but this in no way affects your SP cap. With or without the booster, you cap at 190k a week. If you go over your cap, at most, you'll only gain one extra SP per two WP's you get in a fight, capping at 1k, totalling 1.5k per fight, which isn't really pushing boosters since it's such a meager amount.

The community (again, not speaking for everyone - correct me if I'm wrong) is saying that with the booster, your effective SP cap becomes 270k SP (provided you manage to cap that week). If you want to train up faster, boosters are pretty much a requirement, otherwise you put yourself behind the guys that do decide to spend money, meaning that if you pay, you get more SP than the guy that doesn't.

Both sides make valid points, but I'm going to side with the community, but not go as far as saying this game is strictly pay-to-win. While everyone's cap is indeed 190k SP per week, with a booster that cap effectively becomes 270k a week (even though we know the SP cap is 190k), catapulting you past those that don't pay (for whatever reason).

Boosters do not raise the SP cap. They do, however, allow you to gain much more SP per week over the guy that doesn't use a booster. They may not give you more SP per week, but the bonus SP they allow you to collect does give you an advantage over those without the boost.

I will also add that I have never seen SP in the killfeed, so there's that to.

...That does not make sense.



The aim of the skill cap is to ensure players progress through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players.

There is no purpose. It's the most ******** feature in Dust 514 currently and it is CCP's way of saying they're incapable of realizing the stupidity of their own actions. If two players started playing Dust 514 a month apart the one who started earlier will ALWAYS have more SP if they both reach the cap every week UNLESS the newer player buys boosters and the earlier player doesn't. So really it's just CCP money-grabbing by creating a demand for something(the boosters) which negatively impacts the game itself. Without the cap the player who started later could, potentially, get more SP than the player who started earlier. It's all based on how much you play. I've talked to a few people who have stated that they would have played Dust 514 far more if the cap was gone and I agree with these sentiments. The gameplay of Dust 514 isn't exciting enough to play by itself, it's the shallow rpg mechanics that gives it the extra push. With the cap CCP is hampering even this from being used to get players to play once the caps been reached. I mean this game doesn't even reward a player for doing good save a measly 1000 more SP or 100,000 more ISK, both of which are pretty much pointless in the long run, and now with the SP cap they're punishing players who like playing the game. If Dust 514 is going to die, the cap won't necessarily be what kills it but it will make sure that what does has an easier time in do so.

90% why not 99.9%. If your going to use a made up number, at least do it properly.

100% of your posts so far in this thread are 99.9% bollox.

I can't believe he went to level 5 in Amarr heavy and didn't stop at level 3 and start leveling in Sentinel. That's what I did for Amarr logi. But anyway it sounds like Cubs has almost maxed out his build (much better term). Now if he started on tanks next or maybe a medium frame suit of some sort he would be working on his next build. That is a nother thing, people say newcomers can't catch up, but after about 15 mil or so when you have one build pretty much maxed you are caught up. Everything after that is branching outward to be more versatile, you can't continuously build upwards

On the SP cap CCP is trying to have the system set so that to fully max out all character skills should take 5 to 6 years as it currently does in Eve.

New players not being able to catch up to vets... Really? Maximum skill level on any skill is 5. Saying that new players can't catch up to vets is like saying that if I start walking a set distance of 100 feet before you do, then you will never be able to catch up to me though I have to stop at the end of that 100 feet. An inability to "catch up" would only apply in a situation where skill level progression is infinite. The newer players will eventually catch up if they stick with it. Really, they will.

Pay to Win. This is a difficult one. Some things in dust appear to be pay to win true. But the advantage is relatively small in the few cases where it does exist. I have experienced actual pay to win and it's not pleasant for someone like me who isn't able to throw money at a game to get gold armor, gold ammo, gold guns, gold vehicles, even double or triple XP boosters, that don't have equivalents for the non-paying player. See Pirate Galaxy or Dark Orbit for a good examples of true pay to win games.

Honestly, the real issue is that it the value of ISK is somewhat null and void...skilling up should be something that takes a long time...but it shouldn't really be the end goal. The end goal needs to be the market, the isk, value that ebbs and flows with the player metagame of warfare and conquest...not SP.

This is truly the direction I believe needs more love. There is virtually nothing we can manipulate in the skill cap or SP numbers that will satisfy everyone. The current system is the result of player feedback and the same comments you're all making now. Nothing has changed gentlemen, the system itself is fine, it's the context of the game it exists in which is the problem...instead of SP gap, empower the new players with more things he can do to help his team...That, gentlemen, is how we grow a game.

I think the whole community is becoming a little timid. Don't give up on the numbers, but let's not lose sight of the game as a whole. The question is not how do we make things 'fair' for everyone, but how do we give everyone the ability to fulfill a role for a group or friends without the need of SP or vast game experience?

lol, wut?

So... we take boosters out because that's "CCP Money-grabbing." How, exactly, do you want the game to be profitable?

Before you say "not my problem," you realize that unless the game is at least breaking even development will completely stop? CCP is probably large enough to allow the game to go negative on returns for quite a while to invest in making it better for hopes of future increase in revenue, but that's still going to require that they sell you something. Or would you like to see McDonald's adds every time you want to look at your fittings or watch short ED drug commercials every time you die? Either they sell us stuff in the game or they flood the game with real world advertising. Personally? 15$/month "subscription" >>>>>>>>>>>> adds to make my ***** work.

There is no Pay to Win in Dust. The aurum gear all has increased PG/CPU requirements which have big impacts on your fitting options, the boosters just help you get some more sp (but really, not that much. An active booster is what, one tier 5 skill every month? Maybe?). I personally like the boosters. I can give them a little money to show my support for the game, and if I decide to stop playing I just stop buying boosters and never had to shell out $60 up front. And, if I feel the value in buying enough 30 day boosters to equate $60, then I have been playing much longer than most titles stay fun so I feel like I got my money's worth.

CCP money grabbing? Really? You do realize that CCP can afford to make dust free to play and that they don't require anyone to spend a cent. Why? Eve Online costs $15 a month to play and they have how many active accounts including mine? And all they do is Eve Online and Dust 514. They're not trying to develop and support 6+ other games on top of that. That's why AUR gear provides very little, if any, advantage.

If you want to see what real money grabbing is like, play the social games on Facebook, or many of the games on Bigpoint, or Pirate Galaxy by Split Screen games. Those are truly pay to win.

Honestly, the real issue is that it the value of ISK is somewhat null and void...skilling up should be something that takes a long time...but it shouldn't really be the end goal. The end goal needs to be the market, the isk, value that ebbs and flows with the player metagame of warfare and conquest...not SP.

This is truly the direction I believe needs more love. There is virtually nothing we can manipulate in the skill cap or SP numbers that will satisfy everyone. The current system is the result of player feedback and the same comments you're all making now. Nothing has changed gentlemen, the system itself is fine, it's the context of the game it exists in which is the problem...instead of SP gap, empower the new players with more things he can do to help his team...That, gentlemen, is how we grow a game.

I think the whole community is becoming a little timid. Don't give up on the numbers, but let's not lose sight of the game as a whole. The question is not how do we make things 'fair' for everyone, but how do we give everyone the ability to fulfill a role for a group or friends without the need of SP or vast game experience?

It ensures new players can never catch up to active vets.

full time job, family of 4, weekend cottage...

and still in playing 5-6 hours a day have a boatload of SP

but thanks for the attempted troll, it failed with grace ;)

Why not just use tiered caps?

Less than 1 million Total SP = No Cap

Less than 3 million Total SP = 500k Cap/wk

Less than 5 million Total SP = 300k Cap/wk

Less than 10 million Total SP = 250k Cap/wk

More than 10 million Total SP = 200k Cap/wk

The SP cap was only useful for a couple months. Now it accomplishes nothing and only hurts new players.

How much is a boatload of sp? :) 20mill?

We have a winner!

Honestly no cap til u hit 10mil would be fine imo. Get people on the level they need to be to be able to compete asap. Start the grind once they hit 10mil.

Grind to 10mil, play more get there faster, hit 10mil and now u are in the same boat as everyone else. Id say most actice players average 11-13mil atm

Couple of points as someone pointed this out earlier:

1. Active boosters: Technically CCP/GM is correct when they say the active booster doesn't increase your cap. Take for example, a player that uses a booster on Monday, after hitting about 3/4 of his cap for the week. The cap doesn't magically extend by another 97,000. It's only because smart players figure that if you use a booster on Wednesday, you can extend the amount of bonus SP you get by 50% of the weekly cap.

2. 'Catching up': While newer players will never catch up in terms of raw SP with older players is true, however based on my understanding of the way CCP thinks, they have their reasoning behind maintaining a disparity between the SP levels of players. As a long time player of EVE (watch the crybabies start using this against my arguments), we've seen countless arguments from newer players that they will never catch up in SP amounts to the vets. However, as other posters have pointed out, at a certain point, the maximum amount of SP you can have affecting a particular build levels out, and more SP = more versatality.

Another point to the catching up thing, although I agree to a rolling cap, I can understand that CCP looks at their products from a long-term perspective. I do agree that CCP could do more in terms of communication with the playerbase, and that there should be more to do in game, the way CCP works is that they do not build games which get played and discarded after 6 months. if you look at it from a long term perspective where you'll be playing this game on and off for a few years (which CCP expects you to), in the long run a couple of million SP will not make that much of a difference.

In regards to 2 "Catching up" would be a non issue if having more sp didnt mean having drastically increased survivability
Knowing that you outplayed someone and they only survived due to their character being around longer is incredibly frustrating and a terrible thing to have in a fast paced action game
Tekken Revolution while a different genre completely also has a skill system in place and does it better by having skill points offer a tiny tiny bit of an advantage, for instance 30 extra points in vitality is barely an extra hit on the life bar

I understand what you mean, but honestly I still consider it a non-issue. The game tends to promote teamwork over individual skill, and a disparity between players seems intentional given my perception of how CCP works. This would you to adapt to different problems via different methods, i.e. if you can't kill that person 1v1, try leading him into concentrated fire from your team, or swap fits to counter his fit etc.

That being said, Dust (and EVE) is all about the minor bonuses. Remember that you only get a maximum of 5 levels in every skill, and that level 5 requires more SP than level 1-4 combined. Therefore, the slight drop in effectiveness by having a skill at 4 can be offset by adjustments in tactics or fits etc.

My 2 cents

Which also means that once you reach your cap, your Active booster bonus will be based on a 1SP for each WP to a maximum of 1,000 SP (1,500 SP with an Active Booster). Not very much an incentive to sell more booster if once you reached the cap you only get 500 SP/per battle as maximum bonus is it?

Just to mention that as well; The SP Cap has been modified several times in the past, and who knows, it could be altered again in the future. Feel free to share some feedback in the appropriate section if needed.

to keep me from maxing the skill tree in 3 months....

if there was no cap I would have about 50 million SP by now.. 6 months later.

that is why there is a SP cap. cause these kind of games will always have people like me ;P

Your sweet little thread begging that GM Vegas reopen your locked thread about the dead horse of SP gap.

Thought maybe you might have got banned after that.

Your thread disappeared real quick.

I made a video expressing the OP's Concerns

Please leave comment if you agree.

Thanks