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Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 304	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:02:00 - [1] - Quote I'm about to start. 14-5, #2 on the board. Took out a squad of protos with an orbital. Received a payout of 212,000 ISK. I could AFK in the the MCC and get 180,000. A loss of about 400,000 ISK. The alternative is to run around in BPOs and grind 15 hours a week to save money to play a few matches in my good stuff. Then cross my fingers that I get hit detection with my MD. I'm done grinding. I can't afford to play the game on a regular basis at this rate. Come up with a system that pays more for people that want to risk their proto gear.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens 93	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:07:00 - [2] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I'm about to start. 14-5, #2 on the board. Took out a squad of protos with an orbital. Received a payout of 212,000 ISK. I could AFK in the the MCC and get 180,000. A loss of about 400,000 ISK. The alternative is to run around in BPOs and grind 15 hours a week to save money to play a few matches in my good stuff. Then cross my fingers that I get hit detection with my MD. I'm done grinding. I can't afford to play the game on a regular basis at this rate. Come up with a system that pays more for people that want to risk their proto gear. If I die more than once I lose money.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 304	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:13:00 - [3] - Quote It's crazy to think they haven't come up with a better system. I'm in a proto suit with a maxed out weapon. I'm going to play a different game and sign into Dust when we have a PC battle. Check that my MD is broken so it's only decent in pub matches against people running cheap suits to save up for PC battles. This is a dilemma. I love this game and I want to see it succeed, but I can't sustain grinding 15-20 hours a week for SP. I certainly won't grind for that SP if its in a starter suit. Change the payouts for the love of god.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 92	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:20:00 - [4] - Quote If playing this game teaches you anything it's that the devs are either incredibly lazy or incredibly inept. There really isn't any other way to explain how even after the "release" of the game you have so many fundamental systems and mechanics that just don't function as they need to. The utter failure that is the ISK/WP system is just one of many examples of what is wrong with this game, things they seem entirely uninterested in fixing any time soon.
Osbor robsO Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 3	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:23:00 - [5] - Quote all passive SP would fix this grinding problem instantly also if your suit is THAT expensive, and you lose money on average using it, consider making the suit cheaper? the weapon and dropsuit are by far the most expensive parts of a fit. consider dropping down to an ADV weapon instead of proto?
Sinned Deluvian Algintal Core Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:27:00 - [6] - Quote So you want to use proto gear and face no risk of loosing money? Im sorry, the game is not intended to work that way, proto gear is too cheap as it is. If you can't afford it, just switch to the god damned ADV gear, its not that bad.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 92	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:27:00 - [7] - Quote Osbor robsO wrote: all passive SP would fix this grinding problem instantly also if your suit is THAT expensive, and you lose money on average using it, consider making the suit cheaper? the weapon and dropsuit are by far the most expensive parts of a fit. consider dropping down to an ADV weapon instead of proto? If the point of the game is to grind until you can use the best equipment and then never use it because it's too expensive... there's been a failure in the fundamental mechanics of the game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 304	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:34:00 - [8] - Quote Sinned Deluvian wrote: So you want to use proto gear and face no risk of loosing money? Im sorry, the game is not intended to work that way, proto gear is too cheap as it is. If you can't afford it, just switch to the god damned ADV gear, its not that bad. Read the OP again. I went 14-5 against other protos, 1300 WP That shouldn't net you a 400,000 loss. Did I say anything about not wanting to risk losing money? I had a good game and lost 400,000 isk. That's crazy. A tanker can go 40-1 and lose money. It's not crazy, it's stupid. I've grinded for 9 months, been reset twice. Racked up 12.2 million SP and I don't know how many hours on this game. If I can't afford to run this gear if I die TWICE, then it's not worth playing.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 304	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:36:00 - [9] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: Osbor robsO wrote: all passive SP would fix this grinding problem instantly also if your suit is THAT expensive, and you lose money on average using it, consider making the suit cheaper? the weapon and dropsuit are by far the most expensive parts of a fit. consider dropping down to an ADV weapon instead of proto? If the point of the game is to grind until you can use the best equipment and then never use it because it's too expensive... there's been a failure in the fundamental mechanics of the game. Bingo I should have AFKd. I should have had a second character on my second PS3 and sat him in the MCC so I could be playing with no worry in the world.
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:36:00 - [10] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: If the point of the game is to grind until you can use the best equipment and then never use it because it's too expensive... there's been a failure in the fundamental mechanics of the game. From what I've understood, the proto gear was meant to be something you only brought out when the victory was worth risking an immediate monetary loss, such as taking over a district.

Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 101	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:37:00 - [11] - Quote I may not be an expert on the topic, but here's a hint: Prototype gear is for use in planetary conquest. In public matches it's just for vanity.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 218	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:40:00 - [12] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I can't believe i just read this... Beeing responsible for your own money is part of the game. Proto gear is supposed to be used in matches that you can't afford to loose. You want maximum performance all the time? Goddam pay for it.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 304	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:41:00 - [13] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: I may not be an expert on the topic, but here's a hint: Prototype gear is for use in planetary conquest. In public matches it's just for vanity. So the idea is to grind in cheap suits that aren't 1/10th of the fun to play in for 15-20 hrs a week to cap out? It sounds like that what you guys are okay with. If so, maybe I'm off track because that sounds ******** to me.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 304	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:42:00 - [14] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: I can't believe i just read this... Beeing responsible for your own money is part of the game. Proto gear is supposed to be used in amatches that you can't afford to loose. You want maximum performance all the time? Goddam pay for it. Again go back and look at the OP. And consider that I could go 35-2 and lose money. Are you people really this stupid, honestly or do you just like to argue.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 81	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:46:00 - [15] - Quote Thor, although I support the ability to make Isk I will take this opportunity to point out that the easiest way to do this is through massive amounts of WP. If you make 2000+ WP in a match it is likely that you will also make 400-500k isk that match. This is why I have been lobbying for a player market as well as manufacturing capabilities.
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:52:00 - [16] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Again go back and look at the OP. And consider that I could go 35-2 and lose money. Are you people really this stupid, honestly or do you just like to argue. Consider it from a true merc perspective. You are being hired by some corporation to fight for them at some initial cost plus a small bonus for performance. Why would they increase your pay because you want to use your best equipment? They just want the job done at their price regardless if you do it with black hole or a rock.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 305	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:52:00 - [17] - Quote But that just not true. It's not consistent. I had 2100 WP in the match before and received 320,000 WP. I received 500,000 isk in a domination match that I had 2400 WP in and that's the only time I've ever gotten that much. One other time I've gotten 400,000. I get a lot of WP. Now that the respec money is gone I'm sitting on 16,000,000 and reality is setting in. It's frustrating and I'm not sure how anyone can be happy with it. You should be able to calculate your ISK payout at the end of battle screen screen based on WP, KDR, and W/L Time in match should matter ZERO. Performance only
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 861	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:53:00 - [18] - Quote This is why I don't understand busting out proto gear in pub matches. don't run what you can't afford to lose. there needs to be some balance in this game so someone with <2 million SP can compete with someone that has >10million SP in pub matches. If people are just running proto 100% of the time then there is an imbalance to the pub matches, which is bad for Dust. Use throw away gear for throw away matches. Use serious gear in serious matches. It's a rather simple concept. as for tankers going 40-1 and still losing money, I'll give this bit of advice - if your corp won't finance your tank, find a corp that will. I don't think HAVs were meant for the lonewolf, at least not until we get a contract system up and running where the ISK payout from the contract will pay for whatever tank
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 81	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:54:00 - [19] - Quote Running a conservative 100,000isk advanced fit will only result in profit if you die less than 2 times in an average match for most players.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 92	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:56:00 - [20] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Thor, although I support the ability to make Isk I will take this opportunity to point out that the easiest way to do this is through massive amounts of WP. If you make 2000+ WP in a match it is likely that you will also make 400-500k isk that match. This is why I have been lobbying for a player market as well as manufacturing capabilities. Wrong. ISK payout isn't directly based on your WP. For whatever asinine reason ISK payouts are based on the "value" of whatever enemy equipment you destroy during a game. If you're fighting against a team that is using all expensive equipment and get 2000+ WP then you're going to get a large payout. If you're fighting against a team that continuously spams militia gear and get 2000+ WP you're getting a crap payout. The failure here is that your payout truly has almost ZERO basis on how well you play or how good your gear is but on the gear your enemy uses.

Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 81	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:58:00 - [21] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: But that just not true. It's not consistent. I had 2100 WP in the match before and received 320,000 WP. I received 500,000 isk in a domination match that I had 2400 WP in and that's the only time I've ever gotten that much. One other time I've gotten 400,000. I get a lot of WP. Now that the respec money is gone I'm sitting on 16,000,000 and reality is setting in. It's frustrating and I'm not sure how anyone can be happy with it. You should be able to calculate your ISK payout at the end of battle screen screen based on WP, KDR, and W/L Time in match should matter ZERO. Performance only I believe it is also calculated on equipment destroyed and repaired as most of my matches I spend more time repairing than destroying stuff.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 538	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:01:00 - [22] - Quote the highest I went was just under 700k ISK but I kill 12 HAVs 3 ADS 12 protobears and 8 LLAVs and went 38-1 and lost 100k ISK because the HAV I used cost more then what I got in the match.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 81	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:02:00 - [23] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: Thor, although I support the ability to make Isk I will take this opportunity to point out that the easiest way to do this is through massive amounts of WP. If you make 2000+ WP in a match it is likely that you will also make 400-500k isk that match. This is why I have been lobbying for a player market as well as manufacturing capabilities. Wrong. ISK payout isn't directly based on your WP. For whatever asinine reason ISK payouts are based on the "value" of whatever enemy equipment you destroy during a game. If you're fighting against a team that is using all expensive equipment and get 2000+ WP then you're going to get a large payout. If you're fighting against a team that continuously spams militia gear and get 2000+ WP you're getting a crap payout. The failure here is that your payout truly has almost ZERO basis on how well you play or how good your gear is but on the gear your enemy uses. Can you propose something to fix this? I don't think that payouts should be strictly limited to WP but also believe that there has got to be a better way. A person in a 50k isk suit should be able to make a profit but unless they die less than 4 times in a match they generally will not.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 81	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:07:00 - [24] - Quote ladwar wrote: the highest I went was just under 700k ISK but I kill 12 HAVs 3 ADS 12 protobears and 8 LLAVs and went 38-1 and lost 100k ISK because the HAV I used cost more then what I got in the match. See it's a common occurrence where isk loss is not only on the part of those using proto suits but in any kind of gear. With a steady drain of isk something must be done to correct negative isk flow!
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 305	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:08:00 - [25] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: This is why I don't understand busting out proto gear in pub matches. don't run what you can't afford to lose. there needs to be some balance in this game so someone with <2 million SP can compete with someone that has >10million SP in pub matches. If people are just running proto 100% of the time then there is an imbalance to the pub matches, which is bad for Dust. Use throw away gear for throw away matches. Use serious gear in serious matches. It's a rather simple concept. as for tankers going 40-1 and still losing money, I'll give this bit of advice - if your corp won't finance your tank, find a corp that will. I don't think HAVs were meant for the lonewolf, at least not until we get a contract system up and running where the ISK payout from the contract will pay for whatever tank The point is that I shouldn't have to play 15 hours to cap out if I have to wear gear that isn't fun. I think they could do some simple things like make Merc battles team deploy with bigger payouts. Nix FW because its just a skirmish that pops up every 5 minutes that might allow me to get two squads from my team in. ^this would change the game in my opinion. Pub matches would be more safe for loners and newbros. It would allow you to cap out quicker, train more, earn more isk, and have more fun.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 218	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:08:00 - [26] - Quote ladwar wrote: the highest I went was just under 700k ISK but I kill 12 HAVs 3 ADS 12 protobears and 8 LLAVs and went 38-1 and lost 100k ISK because the HAV I used cost more then what I got in the match. Destroyed value is put into a pool and divided to all mercs according to playtime and wp i believe. That's you didn't get millions of isk. Again, the payout system is not designed to care for our expenses. It evaluates the damage done, the outcome and and ones general contribution towards that outcome. How expensive this contribution has been for any merc is only ones own problem. Sounds harsh. Is harsh. Works as intended.
EXASTRA INVICTAS Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 48	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:08:00 - [27] - Quote I believe the planned "remedy" for this is to have players use lower level gear for non mercenary work. Your funding EVE corporation (whoever is conracting you to do mercenary stuff) can, should, and will fund your gear without batting an eyelash. You could lose 20 HAVs in a match and most EVE players could earn that back in a single kill.
Osbor robsO Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 3	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:08:00 - [28] - Quote also, be thankful proto is as powerful as it is in EVE, the more expensive ships often make you MORE vulnerable, since people KNOW you're using expensive stuff and want to make you cry. also in eve there's very rarely a clear-cut "better" ship, since they occupy different classes and it's difficult for a frigate to take on a battleship, and the battleship's guns cannot really track a fast moving frigate ect.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 92	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:11:00 - [29] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Mike Poole wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: Thor, although I support the ability to make Isk I will take this opportunity to point out that the easiest way to do this is through massive amounts of WP. If you make 2000+ WP in a match it is likely that you will also make 400-500k isk that match. This is why I have been lobbying for a player market as well as manufacturing capabilities. Wrong. ISK payout isn't directly based on your WP. For whatever asinine reason ISK payouts are based on the "value" of whatever enemy equipment you destroy during a game. If you're fighting against a team that is using all expensive equipment and get 2000+ WP then you're going to get a large payout. If you're fighting against a team that continuously spams militia gear and get 2000+ WP you're getting a crap payout. The failure here is that your payout truly has almost ZERO basis on how well you play or how good your gear is but on the gear your enemy uses. Can you propose something to fix this? I don't think that payouts should be strictly limited to WP but also believe that there has got to be a better way. A person in a 50k isk suit should be able to make a profit but unless they die less than 4 times in a match they generally will not. You need to somehow scale payouts to reflect the "quality" of each soldier to some degree. Think of it this way. If you have a mercenary with a BB gun and a burlap sack for armor and another with state of the art equipment would you pay them the same exact rate for their services? The way things stand now I believe that every single player on a specific team gets the same exact payout at the end of a match based on the total losses suffered by the enemy. This is how in one match you can AFK and get 180K and in another fight to your best and still make 180K. You're never going to see the system improve though to the point where prototype armor becomes anything less than a pain to lose because it would mean more work for the developers. Once people are playing well enough and are able to play regularly in prototype gear what are they going to strive for next? The developers would need to provide another tier for them to aim for next to keep the game interesting. Instead they provide a system where playing in high tier gear is unprofitable meaning it always stays just out of reach for most players providing a goal most people will always strive for and never meet.
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:18:00 - [30] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: You need to somehow scale payouts to reflect the "quality" of each soldier to some degree. Think of it this way. If you have a mercenary with a BB gun and a burlap sack for armor and another with state of the art equipment would you pay them the same exact rate for their services? The way things stand now I believe that every single player on a specific team gets the same exact payout at the end of a match based on the total losses suffered by the enemy. This is how in one match you can AFK and get 180K and in another fight to your best and still make 180K. You're never going to see the system improve though to the point where prototype armor becomes anything less than a pain to lose because it would mean more work for the developers. Once people are playing well enough and are able to play regularly in prototype gear what are they going to strive for next? The developers would need to provide another tier for them to aim for next to keep the game interesting. Instead they provide a system where playing in high tier gear is unprofitable meaning it always stays just out of reach for most players providing a goal most people will always strive for and never meet. But you forget our employers are up in space organizing planetary take overs. They aren't going to go through each soldier and inspect the level of their usual gear. However I agree the pay should account for performance more. Something along the lines of totalPay = basePay + destroyedGear * yourWP / totalTeamWP for the victors perhaps?

Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 305	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:21:00 - [31] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: ladwar wrote: the highest I went was just under 700k ISK but I kill 12 HAVs 3 ADS 12 protobears and 8 LLAVs and went 38-1 and lost 100k ISK because the HAV I used cost more then what I got in the match. Destroyed value is put into a pool and divided to all mercs according to playtime and wp i believe. That's why you didn't get millions of isk. Again, the payout system is not designed to care for our expenses. It evaluates the damage done, the outcome and ones general contribution towards that outcome. How expensive this contribution has been for any merc is only ones own problem. Sounds harsh. Is harsh. Works as intended. Do you have a link to the explanation of payout?
Ti Joad Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:21:00 - [32] - Quote I'm brand new to New Eden, but based on my understanding, prototype-grade gear is to give an advantage over your standard issued stuff. If one is willing to pay for that advantage, then one would understand the costs. With this being said, I can see the reason behind the high cost and impact of having proto-suits/fits. Balance and Dedication If you can employ multiple prototypes on the field of battle, then either that particular battle is important to you or you're testing the prototype, as per the concept. You are literally "investing ISK" into that battle. That is the beautiful thing about DUST514 and the EVE universe. It employs a nicely done economic system so as to give a simulation as to how a mercenary or Private Military Corporation would operate while adhering to a budget. Though I completely understand the need for better paying contracts. For example, you own a really nice vessel, but can hardly pay for the maintenance and the premium fuel it guzzles. There are two things that can be done. Leave the ship in the docking bay, or get better paying contracts. We have the first option, but having the other option would be nice as well
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 93	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:25:00 - [33] - Quote Krom Ganesh wrote: But you forget our employers are up in space organizing planetary take overs. They aren't going to go through each soldier and inspect the level of their usual gear. Nor should they care as they are concerned with what results you achieve, not how you were equipped when you did it. However I agree the pay should account for performance more. Something along the lines of totalPay = basePay + destroyedGear * yourWP / totalTeamWP for the victors perhaps? Oh for christ's sake, drop the RP crap please. There should be nothing in the way of the server taking into account some combination of the meta value and total ISK value of a players equipment and factoring it into the payout provided.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 305	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:26:00 - [34] - Quote Osbor robsO wrote: also, be thankful proto is as powerful as it is in EVE, the more expensive ships often make you MORE vulnerable, since people KNOW you're using expensive stuff and want to make you cry. also in eve there's very rarely a clear-cut "better" ship, since they occupy different classes and it's difficult for a frigate to take on a battleship, and the battleship's guns cannot really track a fast moving frigate ect. In EVE you aren't worried about money if you are in the upper 90% of SP. Because they have ways to earn money. They could take freakin T3 ships on easy missions and earn 10x (in adjusted EVE/DUST currency) as we do here. It's not correct and if it's working as intended people will get burnt out. I should say more people will get burnt out. If CCP would just fix what they have right now, JUST fix they would be much better off. They should tell the new stuff guys to take a vacation.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 218	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:28:00 - [35] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: You need to somehow scale payouts to reflect the "quality" of each soldier to some degree. Think of it this way. If you have a mercenary with a BB gun and a burlap sack for armor and another with state of the art equipment would you pay them the same exact rate for their services? The way things stand now I believe that every single player on a specific team gets the same exact payout at the end of a match based on the total losses suffered by the enemy. This is how in one match you can AFK and get 180K and in another fight to your best and still make 180K. You're never going to see the system improve though to the point where prototype armor becomes anything less than a pain to lose because it would mean more work for the developers. Once people are playing well enough and are able to play regularly in prototype gear what are they going to strive for next? The developers would need to provide another tier for them to aim for next to keep the game interesting. Instead they provide a system where playing in high tier gear is unprofitable meaning it always stays just out of reach for most players providing a goal most people will always strive for and never meet. First to your suggestion: Why would a contractor care what someone brings to the field? He needs a certain job done and is happy for everything that get's destroyed on top of that. After the battle he looks through the available metrics to discern who did a better job and pays that one more. If doing the better job cost him millions more than what the job pays then this particular merc simply did a miscalculation. So a merc's "quality" is just his contribution, not his expenses. And your last paragraph suggests that you view proto gear as a "because it's better" choice. The high price is there to make it a "because it's needed" choice. Enemy team sucks kitten? Go to STD and keep the saved ISK for when you need it. Proto squads of a rival corp? "Skrew the ISK and bring out the big toys! This is not about the money anymore!" The fact that so many people can burn through hundreds of millions of ISK before they run dry is an issue in itself and battles will be much more varied and balanced once that money is finally gone.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 305	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:32:00 - [36] - Quote I'm seriously about to jam my head through some Sheetrock if I read one more post that talks about playing with what you can afford. I died 5 times in the match that made me start this thread. But I dropped an orbital after getting overrun on A at Manus Peak that took out a squad of Pro Hic dudes in proto gear. You'd think you'd be able to break even. Hell maybe eve lose a bit. As landwar posted above he had a 38.0 KDR and lost 100K. It feels like I'm in the Twilight Zone if you people can't see something wrong with that.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 218	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:32:00 - [37] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: ladwar wrote: the highest I went was just under 700k ISK but I kill 12 HAVs 3 ADS 12 protobears and 8 LLAVs and went 38-1 and lost 100k ISK because the HAV I used cost more then what I got in the match. Destroyed value is put into a pool and divided to all mercs according to playtime and wp i believe. That's why you didn't get millions of isk. Again, the payout system is not designed to care for our expenses. It evaluates the damage done, the outcome and ones general contribution towards that outcome. How expensive this contribution has been for any merc is only ones own problem. Sounds harsh. Is harsh. Works as intended. Do you have a link to the explanation of payout? That is pretty old but since i can't find any more current info that's not focused on FW/PC i assume it's still accurate. http://blog.us.playstation.com/2012/12/11/dust-514-war-and-profit/ Edit: Thor Odinson42 wrote: I'm seriously about to jam my head through some Sheetrock if I read one more post that talks about playing with what you can afford. I died 5 times in the match that made me start this thread. But I dropped an orbital after getting overrun on A at Manus Peak that took out a squad of Pro Hic dudes in proto gear. You'd think you'd be able to break even. Hell maybe eve lose a bit. As landwar posted above he had a 38.0 KDR and lost 100K. It feels like I'm in the Twilight Zone if you people can't see something wrong with that. Look at it from this point of view, there is a good change that any single one of those guys went out of that match with a negative just as you.
Akaruiwrx Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION 11	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:35:00 - [38] - Quote Don't take this the wrong way but OP is a moron, proto gear isn't supposed to be cheap it's not something you should be running around with on a daily basis it's something you should only be using when the battle is really important like say a PC match where the outcome could effect your entire corporation. You shouldn't be fielding proto gear in every match the fact that it's expensive also serves to keep Proto gear out of say your average skirmish so noobs don't get utterly crushed without having any chance.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 93	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:36:00 - [39] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: First to your suggestion: Why would a contractor care what someone brings to the field? He needs a certain job done and is happy for everything that get's destroyed on top of that. After the battle he looks through the available metrics to discern who did a better job and pays that one more. If doing the better job cost him millions more than what the job pays then this particular merc simply did a miscalculation. So a merc's "quality" is just his contribution, not his expenses. Except even in this game that ISN'T how it works. Payouts are practically, if not entirely, uniform across all players on a given team. You AFK in the ship and you make 200k, you fight your ass off and lose 100K in equipment you make 200k. As long as the rest of your team is at least messing around and killing people it's more profitable to afk in a starter fit than to actually play this game. As long as you're trying to make an argument in in-game terms then you're entirely leaving out the mercenary's point of view here. In a real situation the mercenary's involved wouldn't put up with this crap. They're putting their own funds on the line and getting paid as much as the guy sitting in the corner spending the entire battle using his rifle to scratch his ass. At that point any mercenary that values his money is going to either slack off like everyone else so they get their same payout for doing the same work or they take their services elsewhere.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 305	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:36:00 - [40] - Quote I hope everyone can tell that I fully understand the dynamics here. I even understand where most of you are coming from. I just think its not a recipe for success. How many dudes in EVE in the upper 90% SP of EVE are mining 15 hours a week in a Venture in order to finance 5 - 10 fleet ops per week? If you can answer that then I'll shut up.

Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1059	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:38:00 - [41] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I'm about to start. 14-5, #2 on the board. Took out a squad of protos with an orbital. Received a payout of 212,000 ISK. I could AFK in the the MCC and get 180,000. A loss of about 400,000 ISK. The alternative is to run around in BPOs and grind 15 hours a week to save money to play a few matches in my good stuff. Then cross my fingers that I get hit detection with my MD. I'm done grinding. I can't afford to play the game on a regular basis at this rate. Come up with a system that pays more for people that want to risk their proto gear. Fellow MD Logi here o/ I've gone to running pure BPO fits until CCP fixes the hit detection and makes the MD usable again. Under current circumstances the cost v benefit just doesn't justify using it. Especially with the stats still broken (last I heard) in Skirmish I'm just baking ISK and capping my SP right now. When the injectors, hit detection and uplinks are fixed I can give another shot to playing in a more aggressive way. Until then just waiting. (who knows maybe by then the exploits in PC may be removed as well )
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 305	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:39:00 - [42] - Quote Akaruiwrx wrote: Don't take this the wrong way but OP is a moron, proto gear isn't supposed to be cheap it's not something you should be running around with on a daily basis it's something you should only be using when the battle is really important like say a PC match where the outcome could effect your entire corporation. You shouldn't be fielding proto gear in every match the fact that it's expensive also serves to keep Proto gear out of say your average skirmish so noobs don't get utterly crushed without having any chance. Thanks dude, I'm a moron because I don't want to grind for 15 hours a week wearing crappy gear. I posted this above... I think they could do some simple things like make Merc battles team deploy with bigger payouts. Nix FW because its just a skirmish that pops up every 5 minutes that might allow me to get two squads from my team in. ^this would change the game in my opinion. Pub matches would be more safe for loners and newbros.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 861	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:40:00 - [43] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: The point is that I shouldn't have to play 15 hours to cap out if I have to wear gear that isn't fun. Is having a weapon or suit that is not black somehow magically less fun? does the color really matter that much? with my scrambler proficiency level and one complex damage mod I can still kill pretty much any suit with the basic Scrambler. I have more fun trying to find the most ISK efficient fit I can while still being effective, a "full proto **** yeah" fit is less fun to me. Thor Odinson42 wrote: I think they could do some simple things like make Merc battles team deploy with bigger payouts. Nix FW because its just a skirmish that pops up every 5 minutes that might allow me to get two squads from my team in. ^this would change the game in my opinion. Pub matches would be more safe for loners and newbros. It would allow you to cap out quicker, train more, earn more isk, and have more fun. For starters FW is more than just a skirmish. Just look what happened to Arzad. FW is real and it matters to EVE right now. I do think you are onto something with "high roller matches" though. I'd support new instant battle type with doubled payouts for the tryhards to run proto, possibly even not rewarding any money if your team loses. It's all about risk and reward, isn't it?
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 110	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:41:00 - [44] - Quote I run pub matches in a 30k Adv medium frame suit, do perfectly fine in it, have fun, kill protos, and always make a profit. If pubstomping in a proto suit isn't working out for you, maybe you should change what you're doing?
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 538	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:43:00 - [45] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I hope everyone can tell that I fully understand the dynamics here. I even understand where most of you are coming from. I just think its not a recipe for success. How many dudes in EVE in the upper 90% SP of EVE are mining 15 hours a day in a Venture in order to finance 5 - 10 fleet ops per week? If you can answer that then I'll shut up. 14 I looks pretty clear that CCP supports AFKing in every way.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 218	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:45:00 - [46] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: First to your suggestion: Why would a contractor care what someone brings to the field? He needs a certain job done and is happy for everything that get's destroyed on top of that. After the battle he looks through the available metrics to discern who did a better job and pays that one more. If doing the better job cost him millions more than what the job pays then this particular merc simply did a miscalculation. So a merc's "quality" is just his contribution, not his expenses. Except even in this game that ISN'T how it works. Payouts are practically, if not entirely, uniform across all players on a given team. You AFK in the ship and you make 200k, you fight your ass off and lose 100K in equipment you make 200k. As long as the rest of your team is at least messing around and killing people it's more profitable to afk in a starter fit than to actually play this game. As long as you're trying to make an argument in in-game terms then you're entirely leaving out the mercenary's point of view here. In a real situation the mercenary's involved wouldn't put up with this crap. They're putting their own funds on the line and getting paid as much as the guy sitting in the corner spending the entire battle using his rifle to scratch his ass. At that point any mercenary that values his money is going to either slack off like everyone else so they get their same payout for doing the same work or they take their services elsewhere. While i disagree from personal experience (not AFK farming but simply failing, mind you) that isk payouts are the same when you do jack for the match i can see your point. But the issue here is rather the viability of AFKing, not the other way around. Once a more sensible matchmaking and PVE content are in place i will second your notion that payout should be almost or completely unrelated to time as there's no excuse for beeing constantly useless when you are put in a match with similarily skilled and equipped players at that point. Until then we have to keep in mind that there are large numbers of players who cannot reasonably contribute to match but are still dependant on getting a share of the ISK payouts to be able to progress.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 305	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:46:00 - [47] - Quote Cass Barr wrote: I run pub matches in a 30k Adv medium frame suit, do perfectly fine in it, have fun, kill protos, and always make a profit. If pubstomping in a proto suit isn't working out for you, maybe you should change what you're doing? It's not the point. Read the ******* thread before you post. Then contribute instead of being a condescending prick.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 305	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:51:00 - [48] - Quote One more thing, like 5% of the player base is involved in PC battles. So what are they saving for? I'd wager half the people in this thread have been in ONE. And I'd wager half have killed someone with an officer weapon in a pub match.
Lilah Silverstone The Arrow Project 51	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:51:00 - [49] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I hope everyone can tell that I fully understand the dynamics here. I even understand where most of you are coming from. I just think its not a recipe for success. How many dudes in EVE in the upper 90% SP of EVE are mining 15 hours a week in a Venture in order to finance 5 - 10 fleet ops per week? If you can answer that then I'll shut up. None but most of those people only log in to change skills. The people who have reached that tier have been at EVE since beta and have most likely done everything the game has to offer. Further more your comparison is inaccurate. Grinding for proto gear is more akin to a solo miner mining 15 hours a day in a venture to save for a Mackinaw. Funny thing is once he has it, he'll likely get ganked before he can turn a profit. The same idea carries over to proto gear. To solve this problem the miner will settle for the less efficient but significantly cheaper Retriever, and though he might lose it as well he'll have a much better chance at actually making isk. Apply this to dust and you to can make money. You can have your profit or you can have your proto gear, but you can't (or rarely can) have both.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 82	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:58:00 - [50] - Quote Lilah Silverstone wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: I hope everyone can tell that I fully understand the dynamics here. I even understand where most of you are coming from. I just think its not a recipe for success. How many dudes in EVE in the upper 90% SP of EVE are mining 15 hours a week in a Venture in order to finance 5 - 10 fleet ops per week? If you can answer that then I'll shut up. None but most of those people only log in to change skills. The people who have reached that tier have been at EVE since beta and have most likely done everything the game has to offer. Further more your comparison is inaccurate. Grinding for proto gear is more akin to a solo miner mining 15 hours a day in a venture to save for a Mackinaw. Funny thing is once he has it, he'll likely get ganked before he can turn a profit. The same idea carries over to proto gear. To solve this problem the miner will settle for the less efficient but significantly cheaper Retriever, and though he might lose it as well he'll have a much better chance at actually making isk. Apply this to dust and you to can make money. You can have your profit or you can have your proto gear, but you can't (or rarely can) have both. While I agree with this, I feel we are being relegated to running militia rather than basic or advanced fit gear to do this and it is a problem.

Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 111	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:59:00 - [51] - Quote Several people have already explained why the system works that way, there's no reason to explain it again. Maybe you should read the thread. I suggested an alternative that works perfectly fine for pub matches, and you get pissy about it. Payouts are divided among your entire team, so even if you killed an entire proto squad, as long as you lost several proto suits you are going to take a loss. If you can run proto suits in pub matches all day without a care in the world for monetary losses, than ISK ultimately means nothing and the whole risk vs. reward system falls apart. And just to clarify, winning a pointless pub match isn't part of the reward side of the equation, because it accomplishes exactly nothing.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 305	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:02:00 - [52] - Quote Lilah Silverstone wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: I hope everyone can tell that I fully understand the dynamics here. I even understand where most of you are coming from. I just think its not a recipe for success. How many dudes in EVE in the upper 90% SP of EVE are mining 15 hours a week in a Venture in order to finance 5 - 10 fleet ops per week? If you can answer that then I'll shut up. None but most of those people only log in to change skills. The people who have reached that tier have been at EVE since beta and have most likely done everything the game has to offer. Further more your comparison is inaccurate. Grinding for proto gear is more akin to a solo miner mining 15 hours a day in a venture to save for a Mackinaw. Funny thing is once he has it, he'll likely get ganked before he can turn a profit. The same idea carries over to proto gear. To solve this problem the miner will settle for the less efficient but significantly cheaper Retriever, and though he might lose it as well he'll have a much better chance at actually making isk. Apply this to dust and you to can make money. You can have your profit or you can have your proto gear, but you can't (or rarely can) have both. You could buy a plex and run in T3 gear all the time, but they are part of a corp/alliance that can keep their players in money. They do things that make them so much money they can buy plex (400,000,000-500,000,000 per month) in order to play for free. I'm tired of comparing these two games. They are different so just stop.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 305	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:10:00 - [53] - Quote Cass Barr wrote: Several people have already explained why the system works that way, there's no reason to explain it again. Maybe you should read the thread. I suggested an alternative that works perfectly fine for pub matches, and you get pissy about it. Payouts are divided among your entire team, so even if you killed an entire proto squad, as long as you lost several proto suits you are going to take a loss. If you can run proto suits in pub matches all day without a care in the world for monetary losses, than ISK ultimately means nothing and the whole risk vs. reward system falls apart. And just to clarify, winning a pointless pub match isn't part of the reward side of the equation, because it accomplishes exactly nothing. I shouldn't have been so harsh. I apologize, no excuse for it. It's just crazy that we should have to grind in basic to medium gear in order to cap out and save up for 3 or 4 matches. If you are lucky enough to be a 5%er who has participated in PC battles you can turn a profit in proto gear if you die 5 times. Are you happy with the system? I proposed a system that lets you team deploy into Merc battles (not this FW crap)with bigger payouts. This clears the pub matches for newbs and allows serious players to battle consistently against teams of players.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 111	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:23:00 - [54] - Quote No, it really doesn't bother me. I think the majority of players running proto gear in pubs would make the new player experience even worse than it is, and it's already pretty bad. If they expanded the Academy as quite a few of us have suggested, then you could probably increase payouts in normal battles. Indeed they'd go up automatically as generally more expensive gear would be in play. But again, if they go too far with NPC payouts you'd risk ISK losing all value for everyone except vehicle users. Ultimately the whole balance will change when the Dust and Eve markets are integrated, and pod jockeys start subsidizing FW battles to turn the battles in their preferred direction, as well as increased Eve integration and expansion of PC territory. Honestly I'd prefer they be working on all of this instead.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 218	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:26:00 - [55] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Cass Barr wrote: Several people have already explained why the system works that way, there's no reason to explain it again. Maybe you should read the thread. I suggested an alternative that works perfectly fine for pub matches, and you get pissy about it. Payouts are divided among your entire team, so even if you killed an entire proto squad, as long as you lost several proto suits you are going to take a loss. If you can run proto suits in pub matches all day without a care in the world for monetary losses, than ISK ultimately means nothing and the whole risk vs. reward system falls apart. And just to clarify, winning a pointless pub match isn't part of the reward side of the equation, because it accomplishes exactly nothing. I shouldn't have been so harsh. I apologize, no excuse for it. It's just crazy that we should have to grind in basic to medium gear in order to cap out and save up for 3 or 4 matches. If you are lucky enough to be a 5%er who has participated in PC battles you can turn a profit in proto gear if you die 5 times. Are you happy with the system? I proposed a system that lets you team deploy into Merc battles (not this FW crap)with bigger payouts. This clears the pub matches for newbs and allows serious players to battle consistently against teams of players. The disagreement is still that some posters don't expect to constantly use proto gear as they see proto as something you pay the money for when/because the situation demands it, and not because it's the best. I understand STD => ADV => PRO not as a progression like with traditionall progression systems where you expect to go towards the best stuff and stay there, but as the ability to cope with increasingly difficult situations, should i need to. That's why i don't see the need for new gamemodes that pay, say, twice the ISK for no good reason. We need more things like PC, where using proto is paid by the advantages of keeping districts, so that using proto is a worthwile investment. Until that i view proto as not worth the price in most cases and i am perfectly fine with it.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 307	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:31:00 - [56] - Quote We'll have to agree to disagree. 5% of the player base participates in PC battles. 254 districts = 508 teams x 16 players = 8,128 players. Every district isn't attacked each day and many of the battles are made up of players participating in 3 or four battles per day. If that's what 95% of the player base is saving up for then I'm not sure this is sustainable. Can a person really look at that and envision success when they look at the bigger picture here?
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:31:00 - [57] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: I believe it is also calculated on equipment destroyed and repaired as most of my matches I spend more time repairing than destroying stuff. I think it was something like that the ISK worth of everything red destroyed during the match are split up between all of the players or something like it. But I agree with OP: Something must be done. If I want to use Proto or even advanced gear I have to grind, because I will make a loss if I die more than 5 times (using adv gear) or more than 3 times max (using proto gear). And due to me having bad luck with my teams the last few days I died very often, even though I normally have at least about 800 - 1000 WP. It does kinda suck to actually get about 2000 WP or more (let's be honest: This is something only VERY dedicated players can do) to be able to affort proto gear without farming. Many people here are saying: "If you can't afford it, don't use it in public matches." So what you're basically saying is that I should only use BPOs and free militia gear during public matches? Yeah, that's what grinding is all about. And I don't really want to grind all the time. I want to play with the gear I earned ISK and SP for to use it. But if I use my best gear at the moment (which is a Proto weapon, a standard suit and some basic armor and shield fits) I can only die 2 or 3 times (depending on the ISK I get) without losing ISK. This is just crazy. A SINGLE prototype thing and I can barely die anymore without losing money.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 83	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:36:00 - [58] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: We'll have to agree to disagree. 5% of the player base participates in PC battles. 254 districts = 508 teams x 16 players = 8,128 players. Every district isn't attacked each day and many of the battles are made up of players participating in 3 or four battles per day. If that's what 95% of the player base is saving up for then I'm not sure this is sustainable. Can a person really look at that and envision success when they look at the bigger picture here? It really isn't sustainable. If a person doesn't die in match It is justifiable but if they die only once and switch to militia gear or standard gear it doesn't pay for the one set of gear they came into the match in. Even in PC battles, dying more than 4 times @ 250k for a fully proto fitted suit doesn't justify the cost unless you are not under constant attack and have time to replenish your clone reserves and possibly profit from some isk generated by the district.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 307	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:38:00 - [59] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Cass Barr wrote: Several people have already explained why the system works that way, there's no reason to explain it again. Maybe you should read the thread. I suggested an alternative that works perfectly fine for pub matches, and you get pissy about it. Payouts are divided among your entire team, so even if you killed an entire proto squad, as long as you lost several proto suits you are going to take a loss. If you can run proto suits in pub matches all day without a care in the world for monetary losses, than ISK ultimately means nothing and the whole risk vs. reward system falls apart. And just to clarify, winning a pointless pub match isn't part of the reward side of the equation, because it accomplishes exactly nothing. I shouldn't have been so harsh. I apologize, no excuse for it. It's just crazy that we should have to grind in basic to medium gear in order to cap out and save up for 3 or 4 matches. If you are lucky enough to be a 5%er who has participated in PC battles you can turn a profit in proto gear if you die 5 times. Are you happy with the system? I proposed a system that lets you team deploy into Merc battles (not this FW crap)with bigger payouts. This clears the pub matches for newbs and allows serious players to battle consistently against teams of players. The disagreement is still that some posters don't expect to constantly use proto gear as they see proto as something you pay the money for when/because the situation demands it, and not because it's the best. I understand STD => ADV => PRO not as a progression like with traditionall progression systems where you expect to go towards the best stuff and stay there, but as the ability to cope with increasingly difficult situations, should i need to. That's why i don't see the need for new gamemodes that pay, say, twice the ISK for no good reason. We need more things like PC, where using proto is paid by the advantages of keeping districts, so that using proto is a worthwile investment. Until that i view proto as not worth the price in most cases and i am perfectly fine with it. Well we don't have anything else other than PC and its too difficult and expensive for a majority of the player base. So why not allow them to have more fun? As much as I want to quit arguing this point as it appears I'm in the minority I just can't help it. It seems so obvious. The game is already a grind in regards to skilling. Why should it also be an endless grind to afford the stuff we are grinding to skill into?
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1060	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:46:00 - [60] - Quote I'm not saying this would resolve everything but it seems like PC would be more accessible with more districts open and all these awox exploits closed.

Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 85	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:47:00 - [61] - Quote It wouldn't be an endless grind if we were to have a market to make profit off of or the ability to build our own gear as well as research bpos to make them better such as use a sever bpo to make a proto bpo as is done in eve when manufacturing T2 ships.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 307	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:48:00 - [62] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I'm not saying this would resolve everything but it seems like PC would be more accessible with more districts open and all these awox exploits closed. I don't agree. It would just mean the best corps would have more PC battles each day.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 85	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:49:00 - [63] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I'm not saying this would resolve everything but it seems like PC would be more accessible with more districts open and all these awox exploits closed. I don't agree. It would just mean the best corps would have more PC battles each day. It could mean that due to current wars, the big corps would have enough on their plates to do rather than spending more to take more land they may focus on preserving what they have.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 862	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:51:00 - [64] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Well we don't have anything else other than PC and its too difficult and expensive for a majority of the player base. So why not allow them to have more fun? As much as I want to quit arguing this point as it appears I'm in the minority I just can't help it. It seems so obvious. The game is already a grind in regards to skilling. Why should it also be an endless grind to afford the stuff we are grinding to skill into? Don't stop arguing - these sort of discussions will help make the game better. Keep in mind that once the secondary market is released the prices of proto gear will have to change to what people are willing to pay. That alone will change many of your problems with running proto gear, likely making things more feasible to run (a good alliance will have a decent logistics team to supply you) so things will be different in the future. right now, the less proto gear we have in pub matches the better. this game needs more game modes to separate the players into the different strata so we don't have bittervets proto pubstomping newbies with no reprisal.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 307	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:54:00 - [65] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Well we don't have anything else other than PC and its too difficult and expensive for a majority of the player base. So why not allow them to have more fun? As much as I want to quit arguing this point as it appears I'm in the minority I just can't help it. It seems so obvious. The game is already a grind in regards to skilling. Why should it also be an endless grind to afford the stuff we are grinding to skill into? Don't stop arguing - these sort of discussions will help make the game better. Keep in mind that once the secondary market is released the prices of proto gear will have to change to what people are willing to pay. That alone will change many of your problems with running proto gear, likely making things more feasible to run (a good alliance will have a decent logistics team to supply you) so things will be different in the future. right now, the less proto gear we have in pub matches the better. this game needs more game modes to separate the players into the different strata so we don't have bittervets proto pubstomping newbies with no reprisal. I agree with that. I'll probably set up an advanced suit as I ran before the respec. Regardless of the advanced or proto we should much more than and AFKer when you get 2000 WP.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 218	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:54:00 - [66] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Well we don't have anything else other than PC and its too difficult and expensive for a majority of the player base. So why not allow them to have more fun? As much as I want to quit arguing this point as it appears I'm in the minority I just can't help it. It seems so obvious. The game is already a grind in regards to skilling. Why should it also be an endless grind to afford the stuff we are grinding to skill into? We both really differ in mindset regarding this issue. The way i see it, there's proto gear. It's freaking expensive and really only makes a difference in edge cases. So i deem it not exactly worth skilling into/paying for right now. Swoosh, my skillplans are down to a third because i focus on advanced so i can try much more stuff out and once i find the perfect combination i can still use the passive bonuses, allowing better STD/ADV fits to further improve cost to benefit ratio. It's a concious choice based on the framework the game dictates and i'm happy this game allows me to make decisions on this level as barely any other game manages to do this.
Arx Ardashir Bragian Order Amarr Empire 31	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:59:00 - [67] - Quote Well I don't know what the hell people are talking about with earning 150-200k in a match by AFKing. I just tried it and my team had some squad of 4 that stomped, with KDRs in the 20s, and I got a measly 28k ISK for sitting in the corner scratching my ass. So I'm pretty sure the ISK earned from destroying enemy equipment is scaled according to your rank on the Killboard, meaning it's scaled by WP earned. I earned 0 WP, got 16th place, and 28k ISK for my trouble. I'm sure the stop spot made around 10x that, at least. --- In regards to the OP, PC is very tight right now, but is going to be expanded SoonGäó. Right now it's only a small section of Molden Heath, but will eventually encompass all of null sec. That'll make it more accessible to more players. About grinding ISK, the instant battles aren't supposed to be the best way to grind it, contracts from EVE players should be. Only problem is that it isn't in the game yet. Since Instant battles are just that, and you get thrown in with an assortment of randoms, it shouldn't be high stakes. Eventually you'll also be able to sell all that salvage you get but don't use, and that'll be another source of income. Especially if it's an officer version of a gun you don't plan on skilling for. The problem is that the game just doesn't have the infrastructure yet, and because of CCP's haste, we can't even blame it on "it's a beta" anymore. For the forseeable future, the only option is play the game the way it is at the moment. The bright side is that it should eventually expand and get better. Hopefully.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 307	Posted - 2013.06.01 21:28:00 - [68] - Quote I participate in 4 or 5 PC battles a week (more if not for timers when kids are going to bed). I can use the gear as some of you intend. I just don't want to. I think we should be able to run it at a profit if we have a good game. You shouldn't need a 20:1 ratio to make a profit running proto gear. I'm not saying that by running it its auto win mode. It's not as it is. In general a good game should net more profit. Good play should be rewarded. Proto gear gives you a better chance for success on the battlefield.
ShwerShwerShwer The Marching Mercs General Tso's Alliance 159	Posted - 2013.06.01 21:33:00 - [69] - Quote The thing is, proto gear was never intended to be ran 24/7
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1063	Posted - 2013.06.01 21:49:00 - [70] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I'm not saying this would resolve everything but it seems like PC would be more accessible with more districts open and all these awox exploits closed. I don't agree. It would just mean the best corps would have more PC battles each day. Well the exploits are a bit turn off for quite a few players so that lowers the overall population of possible participants which effects the nature of PC game wide. Leaving that aside unless the big alliances/corps keep growing they can't expand indefinitely, there are logistical and personnel issues. Even if those bit groups did continue to expand this would still mean a higher percentage of the player base would be participating which addresses, to an extent, the concerns you were raising (specifically pointing to the 5% figure you quoted). Again I'm not saying this addresses everything just that it's an aspect which could help ameliorate present conditions. As to gear use in general all I can do is cite my own, I run more free fits than anything else because of the bugs in game. However when I do run Proto (outside of PC) I can lose 2 fits in a battle and still slightly come out ahead on ISK. I can't speak to the number of kills this requires as I play primarily Logi so my points tend not to be kills based (tho popping HAVs certainly helps my after match totals). I have noticed however that playing an Ambush (or even OMS) tends to more often be a net loss for me if I run proto where as playing a Dom or Skirm tends to be a net gain (longer matches = more kills + destructions ---> higher total payouts). I'm on balance profitable but I usually don't bother to run Proto at this point and likely won't until the major bugs are fixed. Currently the extra from proto doesn't justify the extra risk for me so I run free and don't worry about it. I realize that the above doesn't solve the troubles your confronting but it's my own experiences on the same topic. Cheers, Cross

Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 94	Posted - 2013.06.01 21:56:00 - [71] - Quote Arx Ardashir wrote: Well I don't know what the hell people are talking about with earning 150-200k in a match by AFKing. I just tried it and my team had some squad of 4 that stomped, with KDRs in the 20s, and I got a measly 28k ISK for sitting in the corner scratching my ass. So I'm pretty sure the ISK earned from destroying enemy equipment is scaled according to your rank on the Killboard, meaning it's scaled by WP earned. I earned 0 WP, got 16th place, and 28k ISK for my trouble. I'm sure the stop spot made around 10x that, at least. Try reading a bit for the MANY explanations on how the ISK system works. ISK payouts are dependent on your teams performance, specifically how much financial loss you incur against the opposing team. If your team gets stomped and can't cause any damage you're going to get a low payout no matter if you're afk or fighting head on. The people here saying they're getting 150-200k here for being AFK? They're teams weren't getting stomped and they got to reap the rewards.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 307	Posted - 2013.06.01 21:56:00 - [72] - Quote ShwerShwerShwer wrote: The thing is, proto gear was never intended to be ran 24/7 If you go 38-1 in a game such as ladwar describes in his post earlier in the thread you should be able to. In the current dynamic you certainly are not ABLE to. I'm not sure it's intended for people able to go 20-3 or so with 2000 WPs to NOT be able to. That's what I'm debating and its only part of the bigger issue that good play is not rewarded, only participation with crappy gear.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1063	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:06:00 - [73] - Quote Arx Ardashir wrote: Well I don't know what the hell people are talking about with earning 150-200k in a match by AFKing. I just tried it and my team had some squad of 4 that stomped, with KDRs in the 20s, and I got a measly 28k ISK for sitting in the corner scratching my ass. So I'm pretty sure the ISK earned from destroying enemy equipment is scaled according to your rank on the Killboard, meaning it's scaled by WP earned. I earned 0 WP, got 16th place, and 28k ISK for my trouble. I'm sure the stop spot made around 10x that, at least. --- In regards to the OP, PC is very tight right now, but is going to be expanded SoonGäó. Right now it's only a small section of Molden Heath, but will eventually encompass all of null sec. That'll make it more accessible to more players. About grinding ISK, the instant battles aren't supposed to be the best way to grind it, contracts from EVE players should be. Only problem is that it isn't in the game yet. Since Instant battles are just that, and you get thrown in with an assortment of randoms, it shouldn't be high stakes. Eventually you'll also be able to sell all that salvage you get but don't use, and that'll be another source of income. Especially if it's an officer version of a gun you don't plan on skilling for. The problem is that the game just doesn't have the infrastructure yet, and because of CCP's haste, we can't even blame it on "it's a beta" anymore. For the forseeable future, the only option is play the game the way it is at the moment. The bright side is that it should eventually expand and get better. Hopefully. Informational post relating to some of the issues raised above Player market is coming next build or the build after so we're looking at aprox 2-12 months until we see it, that's quite a range to be sure but it'll likely be a bit on the sooner rather than the later end. War and Profit - Dev Blog War and Profit Blog wrote: Money ISK is the primary currency in the EVE Universe and a necessity for fighting wars. You will earn ISK from each battle you fight. The size of the reward depends on your contribution and the cost of the battle. Those who contribute more are rewarded handsomely, but all mercs are guaranteed a solid income. A portion of the reward pool for each battle depends on the value of items destroyed in the battle. If the battle saw countless vehicles and expensive prototype gear destroyed, everyone is in for bigger rewards. ISK rewards are calculated as follows for each participant: Base rewards GÇô Every mercenary receives basic compensation for each battle they fight. The size of the reward depends on the time you spent fighting, so joining a battle late will net you lower earnings. Value of objects destroyed in battle has no bearing on this part of the reward. Team rewards GÇô The total rewards calculated from the value destroyed are split between the participating teams, with the winning team earning a larger share. Then, each participant earns a cut of the total rewards that their team received based on the time they spent in the battle. If youGÇÖre late to the party, youGÇÖll earn a smaller cut. Individual rewards GÇô Finally, every participant receives a reward based on their individual contribution on the battlefield. Mercs earn war points based on their actions in the course of each battle, and the more war points you score, the higher your cut of the total payout. Having a solid income is necessary, as you will be using the ISK you earn to buy upgrades, and to resupply any gear you lose during combat. Everything you take into battle in DUST 514 can get destroyed. Luckily, most items are in ready supply should you have the cash. Joining a player-run corporation might make your life more comfortable and earn you reliable funding, but you will have to rely on your personal earnings until you find a corporation to take you in. So actual per match earnings will fluctuate based on the above factors. The TL;DR is that if you want to maximize your profits don't bother with matches already in progress, focus on earning WP over things like KDR an prioritize higher value targets first (HAVs, Mercs in Proto, that Thales sniper, etc). Using this method I earned between 180k-423k ISK per match today (playing all match types except PC). During these matches I had a lower than 1.0 KDR as often as I had a 1.0 KDR and I don't recall ever breaking 2.5 on my KDR. But when you go 4/12 with those 4 being 2 LAVs, 1 HAV, 1 DS while providing ammo, reps, and revives it stacks the income decently (oh and I was running in free fits throughout all matches today with the exception of running ADV AV nades once and my proto fit once for 2 min before swapping into something free at a depot). I don't know what other folks are using or what they're earning doing it but I hope this information is useful to some of the mercs reading. Cheers, Cross EDIT: Oh one thing I forgot, I read that the ratio is Winning team 2/3 Losing team 1/3 when the ISK pot is divided up, can't find the link at the moment but to the best of my knowledge that is still the general apportioning still in use currently.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 94	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:07:00 - [74] - Quote ShwerShwerShwer wrote: The thing is, proto gear was never intended to be ran 24/7 This isn't just about proto gear. That's just the worst example. If I wanted to equip my logi in all advanced gear that's something like 45k per fit. Anything more than 4 deaths, or sometimes 3 deaths with really horrible payouts, and I'm either in the red or barely scraping by.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1063	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:11:00 - [75] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: ShwerShwerShwer wrote: The thing is, proto gear was never intended to be ran 24/7 This isn't just about proto gear. That's just the worst example. If I wanted to equip my logi in all advanced gear that's something like 45k per fit. Anything more than 4 deaths, or sometimes 3 deaths with really horrible payouts, and I'm either in the red or barely scraping by. That's something which is often overlooked. Logi fits are always more expensive than the equivalent fits of other classes (assuming all fitting slots are used in all cases and the same level of mods are used in the fits) because the Logi have more slots to fill. The versatility of the Logi suit is an asset to be sure, and I like supporting my teammates but make no mistake each one of those costs both ISK and SP to accomplish.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 307	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:27:00 - [76] - Quote The payouts done by splitting ISK up based on salvage and such only makes sense if there were ANY kind of actual market or industry in game. Perhaps they can find some way to merge the markets of these two games, but this is going to take people much smarter than anyone on these forums and by people that have nothing to do with developing video games for it to be successful. In the meantime, it should reward good play regardless of drop suits used or killed.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1801	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:29:00 - [77] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I'm about to start. 14-5, #2 on the board. Took out a squad of protos with an orbital. Received a payout of 212,000 ISK. I could AFK in the the MCC and get 180,000. A loss of about 400,000 ISK. The alternative is to run around in BPOs and grind 15 hours a week to save money to play a few matches in my good stuff. Then cross my fingers that I get hit detection with my MD. I'm done grinding. I can't afford to play the game on a regular basis at this rate. Come up with a system that pays more for people that want to risk their proto gear. Get Districts in Molden Heath. Conquest battles pay out over 1 million regularly.
Cinnamon267 The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 72	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:29:00 - [78] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Thor, although I support the ability to make Isk I will take this opportunity to point out that the easiest way to do this is through massive amounts of WP. If you make 2000+ WP in a match it is likely that you will also make 400-500k isk that match. This is why I have been lobbying for a player market as well as manufacturing capabilities. Well, you don't need to lobby for it. The player market is coming. We just don't know when.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 94	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:37:00 - [79] - Quote The ISK/WP/SP system is never going to be remedied because this game is developed by a group with a unique combination of both ignorance and incompetence. In a game like this one of the FIRST priorities you should have is devising a reward system that adequately compensates players for the effort they put in and is capable of financially supporting the play styles necessary for players of all skill levels to play the game. The current system amazingly manages to do neither. WP is rewarded in the laziest means possible for an almost bare minimum of actions, SP is rewarded almost purely for existing during a game and ISK payouts are at best arbitrarily decided. The fact that the game has been "released" and this most basic and critical system is barely developed speaks to how seriously the development of this game has been taken.
Cinnamon267 The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 72	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:46:00 - [80] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: The ISK/WP/SP system is never going to be remedied It will be remedied. Just not with your attitude. I wonder how much of this will be solved when a player market is introduced.

Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 307	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:47:00 - [81] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: I'm about to start. 14-5, #2 on the board. Took out a squad of protos with an orbital. Received a payout of 212,000 ISK. I could AFK in the the MCC and get 180,000. A loss of about 400,000 ISK. The alternative is to run around in BPOs and grind 15 hours a week to save money to play a few matches in my good stuff. Then cross my fingers that I get hit detection with my MD. I'm done grinding. I can't afford to play the game on a regular basis at this rate. Come up with a system that pays more for people that want to risk their proto gear. Get Districts in Molden Heath. Conquest battles pay out over 1 million regularly. We have districts and I do 4 or 5 per week. Your post touches on the overall theme of the thread. Only use proto in PC battles. PC battles are participated in by maybe 5% of the community. If you consider prep time for PC, the battle, and the after action review. You could AFK farm or BPO grind as much as you earned in the PC battle.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1063	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:48:00 - [82] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: The payouts done by splitting ISK up based on salvage and such only makes sense if there were ANY kind of actual market or industry in game. Perhaps they can find some way to merge the markets of these two games, but this is going to take people much smarter than anyone on these forums and by people that have nothing to do with developing video games for it to be successful. In the meantime, it should reward good play regardless of drop suits used or killed. Someone who knows something about economics from outside of gaming development you say? Full market merge is on the roadmap tho it's a ways out yet. Prior to that we'll have a limited integration with taxed asset transfers and prior to that we'll have the secondary/player market. The latter listed aspect being a priority for CCP right now and is slated to show up next build or the build after depending on how the coding goes. In essence all of the above is coming it's just a question of when and that when is between 2 months and (maybe up to) 2 years depending on which bit and how things (mostly coding the mechanics) progresses. So while it's still frustrating at present at least you can take heart that it's all in the pipeline to be resolved as well Cheers, Cross Bonus content related to this, posts #42 & #47
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 307	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:01:00 - [83] - Quote I'd rather them increase payouts and fix the game before working on new stuff. It's best to have fewer things work well than many that are broken. I'm not trying to be negative there. There are some core things that need a lot of work. Reworking ISK payouts seems like it wouldn't take a lot.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1063	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:01:00 - [84] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: The ISK/WP/SP system is never going to be remedied because this game is developed by a group with a unique combination of both ignorance and incompetence. In a game like this one of the FIRST priorities you should have is devising a reward system that adequately compensates players for the effort they put in and is capable of financially supporting the play styles necessary for players of all skill levels to play the game. The current system amazingly manages to do neither. WP is rewarded in the laziest means possible for an almost bare minimum of actions, SP is rewarded almost purely for existing during a game and ISK payouts are at best arbitrarily decided. The fact that the game has been "released" and this most basic and critical system is barely developed speaks to how seriously the development of this game has been taken. See my post above for the details of how the system works currently (it's really not that arbitrary it's derived from WP earned and value of assets destroyed). Regarding the WP awards system it's in it's fledgling stages and going to be expanded & improved. CCP Nothin wrote: We have quite a few additional WP rewards in plans along with iteration work on the existing rewards, e.g. rewarding interruption of hacks, adding more rewards for dropship pilots, increasing the granularity of assist rewards (i.e. giving more or less WP based on how significant your assistance was), giving a bonus for doing things with your squad, and so on. Overall, we feel that we don't quite have the full set of rewards in place yetbut we are working at getting to a better place. As I see it, a decent player should be able to play in, for example, a support role full time without having to do part-time gigs in other jobs to cover the costs. If you have a good idea for a reward that works to strengthen some of the areas that need it, we'd love to hear it. Would I like all of this now and or yesterday? Sure. But I'd rather CCP take their time than rush things, doubly so because this game is being road mapped on a 10 year plan with no intent to discontinue development even after that mark so we're going to see continuing and consistent updates roughly ever 3-6 months plus hotfixes. 0.02 ISK Cross
Bubba Brown Militaires Sans Jeux 138	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:02:00 - [85] - Quote for god's sake THIS IS CALLED ISK EFFICIENCY IT'S CALLED NOT PLAYING BEYOND WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD THERE IS SUCH A THING AS "TOO GOOD A SUIT", WHICH YOU SAVE FOR SPECIAL OCCASIONS welcome to eve, harden the **** up, adapt or die, ect. AND JUST DROP THE PROTO GUN OR THE PROTO SUIT BUT KEEP THE MODULES, that'll easily half your suit cost
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 95	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:06:00 - [86] - Quote Cinnamon267 wrote: Mike Poole wrote: The ISK/WP/SP system is never going to be remedied It will be remedied. Just not with your attitude. I wonder how much of this will be solved when a player market is introduced. I'd forgotten that unless all the children of the world join together clapping and singing CCP can't get the energy to do anything. The power of a positive attitude! Keep dreaming. Like I said this is a fundamental part of the game, something so basic and essential to how the game itself is played it's fairly amazing it wasn't the first thing they ironed out and shocking that they "released" the game with it still in the state it is. This isn't an issue you rationalize away by hoping that the eventual development of something tangentially related might provide some alleviation.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1063	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:08:00 - [87] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I'd rather them increase payouts and fix the game before working on new stuff. It's best to have fewer things work well than many that are broken. I'm not trying to be negative there. There are some core things that need a lot of work. Reworking ISK payouts seems like it wouldn't take a lot. ISK payouts aren't really separate from salvage values, player market or the economic merge of D514 with EVE. They're all directly connected and part of what takes time is making sure that each piece fits, altering values in any one has implications for the rest and requires due care to avoid longer term issues. The current situation isn't ideal there's no doubt about that but what's being worked on right now has direct applications to provide redress. Altering payout values has to be done with the long term in mind including the comparative value of ISK in both aspects of New Eden, the markets aren't merged at present but it's always been the goal which means not overlooking the New Eden wide implications of each change and going more slowly right now to get things done properly. Again I fully understand that this is frustrating and constraining, I'm a support Logi with a MD working for Merc based corp and these current mechanics hinder or outright block most of my play style and longer term plans for Dust but the fixes are coming, an' I'm just saying better they take awhile longer and get it done properly than do parts faster now and create more work (and possibly problems) down the line. Cheers, Cross
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 119	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:13:00 - [88] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: ShwerShwerShwer wrote: The thing is, proto gear was never intended to be ran 24/7 This isn't just about proto gear. That's just the worst example. If I wanted to equip my logi in all advanced gear that's something like 45k per fit. Anything more than 4 deaths, or sometimes 3 deaths with really horrible payouts, and I'm either in the red or barely scraping by. Sorry, but if you can't turn a profit in the large majority of matches while running 45k suits you're doing something wrong. It's not the system. I don't know if you're running solo and keep facing real squads or what, but it's something. Sure you'll die more than 5 times sometimes, but keeping it under that isn't terribly difficult if you don't act like it's CoD.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 307	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:18:00 - [89] - Quote I understand that, but I'm not as optimistic as you are in the coming market. The market is 100% NPC. The forums will look like Craigslist if all we get us a player to player trade function. Until there is real industry for Dust mercs I'm not sure what the purpose of tying ISK payouts to salvage is. It makes more sense right now for payouts to be for performance.
Lichsmash RN Quackery Labs Roid Addicts 6	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:27:00 - [90] - Quote this is exactly the reason we need a timer on the mmc that kicks you out if your not going to play get out of the fing match

Arx Ardashir Bragian Order Amarr Empire 31	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:29:00 - [91] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: Arx Ardashir wrote: Well I don't know what the hell people are talking about with earning 150-200k in a match by AFKing. I just tried it and my team had some squad of 4 that stomped, with KDRs in the 20s, and I got a measly 28k ISK for sitting in the corner scratching my ass. So I'm pretty sure the ISK earned from destroying enemy equipment is scaled according to your rank on the Killboard, meaning it's scaled by WP earned. I earned 0 WP, got 16th place, and 28k ISK for my trouble. I'm sure the stop spot made around 10x that, at least. Try reading a bit for the MANY explanations on how the ISK system works. ISK payouts are dependent on your teams performance, specifically how much financial loss you incur against the opposing team. If your team gets stomped and can't cause any damage you're going to get a low payout no matter if you're afk or fighting head on. The people here saying they're getting 150-200k here for being AFK? They're teams weren't getting stomped and they got to reap the rewards. Bold added for emphasis. Reading comprehension. Try it.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 95	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:31:00 - [92] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Would I like all of this now and or yesterday? Sure. But I'd rather CCP take their time than rush things, doubly so because this game is being road mapped on a 10 year plan with no intent to discontinue development even after that mark so we're going to see continuing and consistent updates roughly ever 3-6 months plus hotfixes. 0.02 ISK Cross I REALLY wish people would stop using this "10 year plan" as a rationalization for things sucking now. Having a payout or WP system that functions beyond the ultimate bare bones isn't some wide eyed fantasy you should be looking forward to months or years after a game releases. This is a critical fundamental mechanic that should have been hammered out long before the game even came out of beta but instead it's been tossed on the back burner just like the aiming/control issues and terrain issues.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 307	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:34:00 - [93] - Quote Lichsmash RN wrote: this is exactly the reason we need a timer on the mmc that kicks you out if your not going to play get out of the fing match But the point is that it shouldn't even be something someone considers for anything other than needing a place to hide while needing to take a quick break for a call or something. The ISK payouts are my issue. At the moment AFK is a smart and seemingly acceptable (to CCP) way to fund playing in gear that you've waited for months to skill into. Actually playing the game requires you to use standard to mid grade gear or risk going broke. And it seems as though this is perfectly acceptable to a majority of the folks posting here. It's really that simple.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 95	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:40:00 - [94] - Quote Arx Ardashir wrote: Mike Poole wrote: Arx Ardashir wrote: Well I don't know what the hell people are talking about with earning 150-200k in a match by AFKing. I just tried it and my team had some squad of 4 that stomped, with KDRs in the 20s, and I got a measly 28k ISK for sitting in the corner scratching my ass. So I'm pretty sure the ISK earned from destroying enemy equipment is scaled according to your rank on the Killboard, meaning it's scaled by WP earned. I earned 0 WP, got 16th place, and 28k ISK for my trouble. I'm sure the stop spot made around 10x that, at least. Try reading a bit for the MANY explanations on how the ISK system works. ISK payouts are dependent on your teams performance, specifically how much financial loss you incur against the opposing team. If your team gets stomped and can't cause any damage you're going to get a low payout no matter if you're afk or fighting head on. The people here saying they're getting 150-200k here for being AFK? They're teams weren't getting stomped and they got to reap the rewards. Bold added for emphasis. Reading comprehension. Try it. Reading comprehension, Try it. Mike Poole wrote: ISK payouts are dependent on your teams performance, specifically how much financial loss you incur against the opposing team. KDR means squat. If those people were repeatedly owning enemies who were using nothing but Militia gear how much of a financial loss do you think was building up? Hell, if they were killing at least 20 people each how long did that match even last? You got a crap payout because it was a quick match against people with crap equipment and nothing more. The people that walk away with 150-200k? They were in matches where financial losses built up and even their meager reward built up.
Lichsmash RN Quackery Labs Roid Addicts 6	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:49:00 - [95] - Quote pub matches are there for new players to cut there teeth if you have honestly spent that much sp ito proto gear that you have a full proto load WHAT THE KITTEN ARE YOU DOING SPENDING ALL YOUR TIME IN PUB GET THE HELL OUT TOF THE KIDDY POOL their is a time and a place to be dropping proto after proto suit and thats generally faction warfare and pc the reward there are much more conducive to being able to spend that much per match and has a much higher reward in salvage soomn enough youll have a nice stack of officer weapons for your over trained for pub weapon skills that lessen the money you spend on your suits and OMG the vehicle drops
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1064	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:49:00 - [96] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Would I like all of this now and or yesterday? Sure. But I'd rather CCP take their time than rush things, doubly so because this game is being road mapped on a 10 year plan with no intent to discontinue development even after that mark so we're going to see continuing and consistent updates roughly ever 3-6 months plus hotfixes. 0.02 ISK Cross I REALLY wish people would stop using this "10 year plan" as a rationalization for things sucking now. Having a payout or WP system that functions beyond the ultimate bare bones isn't some wide eyed fantasy you should be looking forward to months or years after a game releases. This is a critical fundamental mechanic that should have been hammered out long before the game even came out of beta but instead it's been tossed on the back burner just like the aiming/control issues and terrain issues. Did you read any of the links I've been posting? It's not on the back burner it's being worked on as a priority now. Further it's going to be rolled out in layers (as was announced and always intended since before I even joined closed beta). This is not something that has been neglected or omitted and I'll repeat it's being worked on now so what more do you want? The answer seems to be "everything already done" but it isn't and no forum post or anything else for that matter will make the coding that is in process right now happen any faster (I suppose arguably if CCP hired more programers it might be faster but that could also introduce the potential for more bugs and may not even be a theoretical possibility budget wise). Saying "don't release the game until it's done" totally makes sense to me, except when the game is slated for continuous on going development. Then there is no "done" so waiting on release accomplishes no positive gains. None of this is a "rationalization" it's an observation and a general stance I'll maintain unless/until someone provides a more effective actionable alternative. Failing that anything else amounts to saying "I want it all now" and do I want it all now? Yeah of course I do. But is that useful actionable feedback, is that constructive? No it is not. And if one is not posting constructively or with the desire to be constructive it begs the question what is the motivation for posting? 0.02 ISK Cross
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 95	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:01:00 - [97] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Saying "don't release the game until it's done" totally makes sense to me, except when the game is slated for continuous on going development. Then there is no "done" so waiting on release accomplishes no positive gains. What games like this aren't in continuous on going development? Just because you plan on adding things as you go along doesn't mean you can just half ass something as crucial as the payout/reward system and have everyone suck it up until you feel like releasing something worth playing with. If an MMORPG released and they announced that it was going to take a few months before half of the actions from the battle system were going to actually reward any experience and even the experience rewarded was going to heavily favor the final blow and that solo guy standing in the corner was going to get a share of all the experience and gold you earned... Do you think they would or really should retain their player base?
Lichsmash RN Quackery Labs Roid Addicts 7	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:03:00 - [98] - Quote yes ccp is working on an isk scaling for war points but if you think money is going to rain from the sky in pubs your going to be disappointing the pub match were is and always will be a kiddy pool that was in the design document that was the intent during its implantation that's the way ccp is going to keep it MAN U-P AND DO FACTION WARFARE YOUR OWN TEAMMATES CAN KILL YOU ORBITAL STRIKES DON'T CARE WHOSE SIDE YOUR OWN have you ever wonder how in pub when you fire at your own teammate and the don't take damage THAT'S BECAUSE YOUR IN THE KIDDY POOL have you ever cooked and chucked a grenade into your own squad and it exploded harmlessly even though they were right on top of it THAT'S BECAUSE YOU WERE IN THE KIDDY POOL how you ever wondered how those magical beams of light can come down and make only the bad people go away THAT'S BECAUSE YOUR IN THE KIDDY POOL isk will be scaled to the effort you put into the game but it was never the intention of ccp to make any that level of protos profitable in pubs
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 95	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:10:00 - [99] - Quote Lichsmash RN wrote: MAN U-P AND DO FACTION WARFARE YOUR OWN TEAMMATES CAN KILL YOU ORBITAL STRIKES DON'T CARE WHOSE SIDE YOUR OWN Yea... faction warfare... where not only can your teammates kill you but apparently in most cases will kill you just to **** with the results of the game.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 86	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:21:00 - [100] - Quote Lichsmash RN wrote: yes ccp is working on an isk scaling for war points but if you think money is going to rain from the sky in pubs your going to be disappointing the pub match were is and always will be a kiddy pool that was in the design document that was the intent during its implantation that's the way ccp is going to keep it We need a better way to earn isk, bottom line. It doesn't make sense that the faction warfare matches pay the say as Pub matches either. Yes PC rewards are higher than pub matches but so are costs and so with everything scaling up in that regards it doesn't make sense that there is not a relatively cost effective way to earn isk to be able to sink into PC battles.

Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:46:00 - [101] - Quote Bubba Brown wrote: for god's sake THIS IS CALLED ISK EFFICIENCY IT'S CALLED NOT PLAYING BEYOND WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD THERE IS SUCH A THING AS "TOO GOOD A SUIT", WHICH YOU SAVE FOR SPECIAL OCCASIONS welcome to eve, harden the ** up, adapt or die, ect. AND JUST DROP THE PROTO GUN OR THE PROTO SUIT BUT KEEP THE MODULES, that'll easily half your suit cost Quoted for truth. I think the OP has confused this game with Halo. Losses are supposed to HURT** in New Eden. You're not supposed to run around in the shiniest suits all the time in pub matches. It should never be affordable to wear maxed out gear in public matches and die more than once or twice, otherwise there's no point in having different tiers of gear and isk becomes meaningless. Take EVE for example. Many people can fly expensive T3 ships, but will fly cheaper ones for less important ops. You should be nervous about loosing that proto suit, it should cause you pain, if it doesn't then the game has lost it's balance. This is what makes DUST unique and interesting, without painful losses it's just a sub-par shooter.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 96	Posted - 2013.06.02 01:37:00 - [102] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I think the OP has confused this game with Halo. Losses are supposed to HURT in New Eden. You're not supposed to run around in the shiniest suits all the time in pub matches. It should never be affordable to wear maxed out gear in public matches and die more than once or twice, otherwise there's no point in having different tiers of gear and isk becomes meaningless. Take EVE for example. Many people can fly expensive T3 ships, but will fly cheaper ones for less important ops. You should be nervous about loosing that proto suit, it should cause you pain, if it doesn't then the game has lost it's balance. This is what makes DUST unique and interesting, without painful losses it's just a sub-par shooter. I think You've confused this game with EVE, which seems to be a mistake people make pretty often around here. I haven't played EVE that much but I'd have to wager you don't go through half a dozen ships over the course of 15-30 minutes right? If people wanted to play EVE they would go play EVE. People here seem like they would like to play an fps and actually enjoy it rather than spend the majority of the time swearing because 2 seconds of gunfire a precision strike and a runaway truck just left them in the red and falling back on starter suits so they stop hemorrhaging money.
Cinnamon267 The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 73	Posted - 2013.06.02 02:56:00 - [103] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: Cinnamon267 wrote: Mike Poole wrote: The ISK/WP/SP system is never going to be remedied It will be remedied. Just not with your attitude. I wonder how much of this will be solved when a player market is introduced. I'd forgotten that unless all the children of the world join together clapping and singing CCP can't get the energy to do anything. The power of a positive attitude! Keep dreaming. Like I said this is a fundamental part of the game, something so basic and essential to how the game itself is played it's fairly amazing it wasn't the first thing they ironed out and shocking that they "released" the game with it still in the state it is. This isn't an issue you rationalize away by hoping that the eventual development of something tangentially related might provide some alleviation. It will be remedied. Anyone with half a brain can figure that out. Drop the "think the worst" mentality. Makes reading your stuff coma inducing.
GET ATMESON NEW AGE EMPIRE The Family Syndicate 1	Posted - 2013.06.02 03:00:00 - [104] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I'm about to start. 14-5, #2 on the board. Took out a squad of protos with an orbital. Received a payout of 212,000 ISK. I could AFK in the the MCC and get 180,000. A loss of about 400,000 ISK. The alternative is to run around in BPOs and grind 15 hours a week to save money to play a few matches in my good stuff. Then cross my fingers that I get hit detection with my MD. I'm done grinding. I can't afford to play the game on a regular basis at this rate. Come up with a system that pays more for people that want to risk their proto gear. Here is how you do it Dont go out with proto gear in a pub match or don't die Problem solved. ISK for solving your problem please.
Adelia Lafayette DUST University Ivy League 49	Posted - 2013.06.02 03:01:00 - [105] - Quote obviously you guys haven't organized a queue synched all heavy all pistol match. Most fun I had in a long time. and cheap as hell to boot. All light and shotguns is also fun and so is only forge guns and av grenades..
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2013.06.02 10:12:00 - [106] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: I think You've confused this game with EVE, which seems to be a mistake people make pretty often around here. I haven't played EVE that much but I'd have to wager you don't go through half a dozen ships over the course of 15-30 minutes right? If people wanted to play EVE they would go play EVE. People here seem like they would like to play an fps and actually enjoy it rather than spend the majority of the time swearing because 2 seconds of gunfire a precision strike and a runaway truck just left them in the red and falling back on starter suits so they stop hemorrhaging money. It's not the same game, but it's cut from the same cloth. The thing that makes this shooter interesting is that when you kill someone, there's a guy on the other end who just lost a ****-load of time grinding up the ISK for that proto suit. It makes you play differently when you're worried about the financial losses instead of just running into a group of enemies, killing a couple and then dying yourself without fear because you'll get a free re-spawn. The risk-reward mechanism makes gameplay more realistic (suicide taxis aside) because you FEAR DEATH because it's a REAL LOSS TO YOU when wearing expensive suits. That's the pearl in this oyster, that's what makes this game interesting. In EVE you can loose months worth of effort in an instant. New Eden is full of stories of people with all of their worldly possessions packed away in a transport ship getting suicide ganked by a gang in Hi-Sec. That's how it's supposed to work, that's what makes people get a little tingle in their balls when they hit the undock button in that expensive ship, that's what makes EVE more interesting than any other MMO out there. So while it's not likely to loose that many ships so quickly in EVE, you can easily burn through an equivalent amount of ISK in a similar timeframe, and if you expect to take heavy losses, you're probably using cheap fits (that's how pirates play for example).
Ignatius Crumwald IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 523	Posted - 2013.06.02 10:23:00 - [107] - Quote I have a solution: DON'T RUN YOUR EXPENSIVE PROTO GEAR IN PUB MATCHES IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD IT, YOU GROSS POOR PEOPLE. I run free 250 total HP suits all day everyday while grinding until I run into a group i want to hand a loss to. Every pile of suck with proto gear is like a Dark Souls boss fight and it borders between fun and frustration, but I make money and pull in decent SP per match. HTFU
demonkiller 12 BetaMax. CRONOS. 15	Posted - 2013.06.02 10:27:00 - [108] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: Osbor robsO wrote: all passive SP would fix this grinding problem instantly also if your suit is THAT expensive, and you lose money on average using it, consider making the suit cheaper? the weapon and dropsuit are by far the most expensive parts of a fit. consider dropping down to an ADV weapon instead of proto? If the point of the game is to grind until you can use the best equipment and then never use it because it's too expensive... there's been a failure in the fundamental mechanics of the game. The thing is you're supposed to be good enough to keep the gear by the time you can use it.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 97	Posted - 2013.06.02 13:31:00 - [109] - Quote demonkiller 12 wrote: Mike Poole wrote: Osbor robsO wrote: all passive SP would fix this grinding problem instantly also if your suit is THAT expensive, and you lose money on average using it, consider making the suit cheaper? the weapon and dropsuit are by far the most expensive parts of a fit. consider dropping down to an ADV weapon instead of proto? If the point of the game is to grind until you can use the best equipment and then never use it because it's too expensive... there's been a failure in the fundamental mechanics of the game. The thing is you're supposed to be good enough to keep the gear by the time you can use it. That would only be true in a game where your advancement toward top end gear was dependent on skill, but it isn't. The only factor that is really at play here is time, as long as you put in X days/weeks/months you can work your way toward being able to use proto gear with as little skill as possible. It's because of how terribly broken the WP system is. The majority of the SP earned isn't earned based on skill but rather simply for existing through the passive accumulation of SP and SP gained for simply being in a match.
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F 185	Posted - 2013.06.02 13:39:00 - [110] - Quote heh, or you could get better. plenty of people run nothing but proto suits and turn profits. me included but I'm a sniper so you'll be like "doesn't count".

Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 310	Posted - 2013.06.03 15:30:00 - [111] - Quote I started to edit the original post and the title, but decided against it. The premise of the post is still true. I still believe that good play is not rewarded enough. Whether you are in a proto suit or militia gear payouts should be higher for solid play. Perhaps the system that determines payouts is fine the way it is, but only needs a few tweaks. Time in battle should count for nothing. If I jumped in with two minutes left, but contributed more than a guy sitting in the MCC my payout should be higher. How could anyone argue with that? If payouts were done this way then I think you'd be able to run in proto suits all the time. The poster above me claims plenty of people run around in nothing but proto suits all the time, but I don't know ANYONE who does. I should say I don't know anyone who does that doesn't have a stash of ISK from AFKing a bunch of alts. I feel confident in saying that fewer people run around in proto suits all the time than participate in PC battles. So I would wager that fewer than 5% of the dust community runs around in proto suits all the time. I'd also say that MORE than 5% of the player base engages in AFKing. It's hard for me to imagine anyone happy with getting 280,000 ISK at the top of the leaderboard when their squad mate who had to drop a deuce went AFK in the MCC and got 160,000 ISK. The dude who participated died 5 or 6 times and barely broke even. I don't care about the explanation of the current system and the pool of salvage, blah, blah, blah. There is no way a guy with 2000 WP should get remotely the same paycheck as the guy with 0 WP. The way it stands now, there isn't much incentive to actually play the game.
Fadiia Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2013.06.03 16:11:00 - [112] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Sinned Deluvian wrote: So you want to use proto gear and face no risk of loosing money? Im sorry, the game is not intended to work that way, proto gear is too cheap as it is. If you can't afford it, just switch to the god damned ADV gear, its not that bad. Read the OP again. I went 14-5 against other protos, 1300 WP That shouldn't net you a 400,000 loss. Did I say anything about not wanting to risk losing money? I had a good game and lost 400,000 isk. That's crazy. A tanker can go 40-1 and lose money. It's not crazy, it's stupid. I've grinded for 9 months, been reset twice. Racked up 12.2 million SP and I don't know how many hours on this game. If I can't afford to run this gear if I die TWICE, then it's not worth playing. R u serious? 14-5 is avarage at best. I go 14-5 against protos with BPO fits and still don't consider that to be a good result if you cant go at least 25-3 with proto, you should loose money.
Darth Threatius 5o1st 1	Posted - 2013.06.03 16:24:00 - [113] - Quote Maybe people shouldn't worry about KDR so much. If you feel like you need to run proto every public match the whole match thru then..... If people think they need to have proto gear on all the time they are wrong. I have seen many people do well in games without proto. Have a variety of suits. Your best down to freebies. My opinion is that many just want to bully those with much less sp than them then get mad when they lose a proto suit. lol And for those who do.... your really not as good as you think. You just have more sp to build you character and better equipment.
Valkyrs Fingolfin Defective by Design 11	Posted - 2013.06.03 16:51:00 - [114] - Quote You start off by saying how little difference it is, whether you do well or poorly, in pub matches. Yes, there's not a lot to gain, so what should you do? Risk less. I prefer running good gear, and I have set up a sliding scale of fits. If we're being out-performed, I scale down my fit so that I get a net gain each time. If I've died twice, then I'll keep my good suit on. The original concept of DUST was to have you be paid mercenaries for EVE players, and the amount of money they sunk into paying you was flexible. So you could run protos and tanks all day long, as long as victory paid out for your employer, and he paid you out accordingly. As with EVE, in DUST it costs more to get less, as the tier increases. It takes way more SP to get a level 5 skill than a level 4 skill, despite the same amount of gain. The same goes for the gear. You can pay double or more for gear that provides you marginal gains, which might not tip the scales in a firefight. It's a system that helps keep the playing field even, because ultimately this is partially an FPS and skill and tactics should play a role over time invested and money accrued. You might lose 1/10 fights with a proto when you're in militia gear, but it's going to cost him more then his total earning when he does, and you'e going to make a profit. It's not as fun, but the people who are wearing better gear then you are paying a BIG (and sometimes unaffordable) price...And they simply can't keep it up indefinitely. They have to grind it by playing militia gear so they're in the same boat as everyone else. 90% of the time they're running around in garbage. Just run your crap gear, throw on a nice suit once in awhile when you're doing well or you get a new skill or new gear, and take pride when you take down someone who's better fit then you, or learn to be more tactical and actually improve as a gamer. The fastest way to improve is to handicap yourself and make due with what you've got, even if everyone else is miles ahead of you. It's not fun, unless you enjoy improving yourself.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 310	Posted - 2013.06.03 17:32:00 - [115] - Quote Fadiia wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Sinned Deluvian wrote: So you want to use proto gear and face no risk of loosing money? Im sorry, the game is not intended to work that way, proto gear is too cheap as it is. If you can't afford it, just switch to the god damned ADV gear, its not that bad. Read the OP again. I went 14-5 against other protos, 1300 WP That shouldn't net you a 400,000 loss. Did I say anything about not wanting to risk losing money? I had a good game and lost 400,000 isk. That's crazy. A tanker can go 40-1 and lose money. It's not crazy, it's stupid. I've grinded for 9 months, been reset twice. Racked up 12.2 million SP and I don't know how many hours on this game. If I can't afford to run this gear if I die TWICE, then it's not worth playing. R u serious? 14-5 is avarage at best. I go 14-5 against protos with BPO fits and still don't consider that to be a good result if you cant go at least 25-3 with proto, you should loose money. There are a handful of people in this game that are able to go 25-3 with regularity. And if those players die 3 or 4 times in a match, they lose money (running protos). I didn't say that I had a great game in that match. It was an average game. But it was a game against a solid opponent. It was a match that I destroyed a squad of protos with an orbital strike. The point of the OP was that I finished #2 on the list died 5 times and walked away with a 400,000 loss. If I'd been running advanced gear I would have broken even. That's not a good system. There shouldn't be any argument there. I'm still scratching my head with these responses. And for the record, I don't want to pubstomp new people. I like a good fight.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 310	Posted - 2013.06.03 17:34:00 - [116] - Quote Again, we are discussing payouts. Not what suit I want to run. The OP is only an example. The title of the OP is probably leading to 95% of the thoughtless responses, but it doesn't change the point. The payouts are stupid. This isn't third grade soccer, we shouldn't be giving out participation trophies.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 310	Posted - 2013.06.03 17:39:00 - [117] - Quote Fadiia wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Sinned Deluvian wrote: So you want to use proto gear and face no risk of loosing money? Im sorry, the game is not intended to work that way, proto gear is too cheap as it is. If you can't afford it, just switch to the god damned ADV gear, its not that bad. Read the OP again. I went 14-5 against other protos, 1300 WP That shouldn't net you a 400,000 loss. Did I say anything about not wanting to risk losing money? I had a good game and lost 400,000 isk. That's crazy. A tanker can go 40-1 and lose money. It's not crazy, it's stupid. I've grinded for 9 months, been reset twice. Racked up 12.2 million SP and I don't know how many hours on this game. If I can't afford to run this gear if I die TWICE, then it's not worth playing. R u serious? 14-5 is avarage at best. I go 14-5 against protos with BPO fits and still don't consider that to be a good result if you cant go at least 25-3 with proto, you should loose money. I looked up your stats. You've got 4 kills and a .25 KDR. I'm assuming you are posting with an alt?
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 40	Posted - 2013.06.03 17:44:00 - [118] - Quote I think people are missing the point of the EVE universe. CHOICES HAVE CONSEQUENCES!!! Constantly using proto gear in pub matches SHOULD be unsustainable for all but the very best. DUST is forcing you to make a hard decision about the cost/benefit and risk/reward of using your proto gear. It can give you a huge edge, but you are risking a whole lot to obtain that edge. Take that consequence away and you are left with CoD or Halo, where everyone has equal access to gear/skills and it all comes down to twitch gameplay and low level tactics. If CCP is moved by your tears and makes the use of proto gear sustainable for everybody, then they just defeated the point of their extensive skill and gear systems: Eventually everyone ends up in proto gear and no one can obtain an edge when they need it. Just like COD or Halo. IMHO it is the ability to make strategic level decisions about gear that has the potential to make DUST different and great.
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 40	Posted - 2013.06.03 17:55:00 - [119] - Quote I run STD dropsuits and consistently end up in the top five. I'm playing well and making a profit for my performace. I could probably end up in the top position every game if I ran proto level gear, BUT i don't need proto gear to end up near the top. Why should you be rewarded more because you need proto gear to be the best? However, I agree that something needs to be done about AFK farming. I've done it occasionally. But it is a huge blight on the game. And warpoints obtained should not be the only metric. Plenty of players attempt to gain WP, but are out played or out geared. Attempting to obtain WP (and actually participating in the game) should be enough to earn a decent payout. Actually obtaining WPs should net you more payout, but never enough to sustain the continued and repeated loss of Proto gear.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 310	Posted - 2013.06.03 18:14:00 - [120] - Quote alten hilt wrote: I run STD dropsuits and consistently end up in the top five. I'm playing well and making a profit for my performace. I could probably end up in the top position every game if I ran proto level gear, BUT i don't need proto gear to end up near the top. Why should you be rewarded more because you need proto gear to be the best? However, I agree that something needs to be done about AFK farming. I've done it occasionally. But it is a huge blight on the game. And warpoints obtained should not be the only metric. Plenty of players attempt to gain WP, but are out played or out geared. Attempting to obtain WP (and actually participating in the game) should be enough to earn a decent payout. Actually obtaining WPs should net you more payout, but never enough to sustain the continued and repeated loss of Proto gear. I don't believe that just by showing up in a proto suit you should earn more isk. I do believe that having the SP, WP, and experience to run a proto suit that I should have access (besides PC) to a higher tier battle finder in order to risk/earn more. But that's a different issue. Although I did mention in one of the other posts a system that would allow you to earn more if you were willing to risk it in a team deploy mode that would allow you to fight as a team against other full teams. There wouldn't even need to be a minimum SP or WP requirement here, newbros wouldn't attempt going in there a second time. This system would likely clear the pub matches for newbros and loners and negate the need for some advanced matchmaking system. Back on topic... I'm discussing isk payouts. The OP was me pissed about losing 5 protosuits and having a net loss of 400,000 isk despite finishing #2 on the board of a battle that was intense and featured many people running proto suits. The system needs to be changed. I'll agree that losing 5 protos suits should have cost me, but 400,000?? If I'd gone 0-5 and finished in the lower half I'd understand.

Kergg Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 5	Posted - 2013.06.03 18:31:00 - [121] - Quote Too bad about everyone talking proto this and that, because I think your point about the WP system seems to make some sense. Probably, some tweaks to the WP system could mean a fixGÇöor at least a step toward itGÇöfor the Academy transition and a good place to start fixing matchmaking in public games. Right?
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 310	Posted - 2013.06.03 18:41:00 - [122] - Quote Kergg wrote: Too bad about everyone talking proto this and that, because I think your point about the WP system seems to make some sense. Probably, some tweaks to the WP system could mean a fixGÇöor at least a step toward itGÇöfor the Academy transition and a good place to start fixing matchmaking in public games. Right? I had no idea the term PROTO could incite such emotion from people. It made them fail to render meaning from the other words in my posts.
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2013.06.03 18:42:00 - [123] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: ...The point of the OP was that I finished #2 on the list died 5 times and walked away with a 400,000 loss. If I'd been running advanced gear I would have broken even. That's not a good system. There shouldn't be any argument there. But there is a major argument there. If Proto is sustainable for everyone all the time, it isn't special, it's standard, and everything else becomes crap. It's supposed to be tiered for a reason. You're supposed to have to weigh the risk of loosing a very expensive suit and taking a loss against the significant advantage it will provide you over others. Sometimes it's worth it, but usually it's best to save your Proto gear for special circumstances (e.g. some guy shoots down your expensive dropship with his proto forge gun so you throw on your proto gear and try to cause him as much pain as possible and don't mind taking the ISK loss to make it happen). AFKing is a completely separate issue. It needs to be addressed, but if ISK comes too easily it's just going to make proto gear way too accessible, which will make it pointless. Also consider people just starting the game, if low warpoints means very low rewards, then they're never going to be able to catch up through hard work and improvement and they'll just quit the game because it'll be pretty hopeless.
Mary Sedillo XERCORE E X T E R M I N A T U S 111	Posted - 2013.06.03 18:48:00 - [124] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: This post and title has been edited due to the inflammatory nature of the term PROTO. The isk payouts have to reward performance over participation. If a person is able to accumulate 2000 WP his ISK payout should be substantially more than someone who doesn't accumulate any WP. My original post was born out of frustration of dying in a proto suit 5 times in a match, but it doesn't change the issue. One of the posters below (ladwar) speaks of going 38-1 in a tank. He was #1 on the list and lost 100,000 isk. Let me start off by saying if you think that's okay, please just post that you don't agree and let the grown ups talk. Don't run Proto suits in public matches if you are worried about "losing money" you ******* idiot.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 100	Posted - 2013.06.03 19:18:00 - [125] - Quote Darth Threatius wrote: Maybe people shouldn't worry about KDR so much. Are you playing the same game as everyone else? In some games your KDR is just a vanity number but in this game every D you rack up is a monetary loss and every absent K is less money your team is making. This is the one kind of game where your KDR while not numerically important is still economically important.
Darth Threatius 5o1st 1	Posted - 2013.06.03 21:17:00 - [126] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: Darth Threatius wrote: Maybe people shouldn't worry about KDR so much. Are you playing the same game as everyone else? In some games your KDR is just a vanity number but in this game every D you rack up is a monetary loss and every absent K is less money your team is making. This is the one kind of game where your KDR while not numerically important is still economically important.
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 43	Posted - 2013.06.03 21:49:00 - [127] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Back on topic... I'm discussing isk payouts. The OP was me pissed about losing 5 protosuits and having a net loss of 400,000 isk despite finishing #2 on the board of a battle that was intense and featured many people running proto suits. The system needs to be changed. I'll agree that losing 5 protos suits should have cost me, but 400,000?? If I'd gone 0-5 and finished in the lower half I'd understand. I am in full agreement that there should be a lot of different match options and payout opportunities. It sounds to me that the problem is more a matchmaking issue/game mode issue: there simply are not enough options. I won't cluter up your post with my ideas, I've already posted them here if you are interested. The question I have is what balances out the ability to sustain a Proto habit by farming ISK elsewhere? Because if you create matches with much better payouts, you will get people farming them in Militia gear to fund their pub stomping habit in normal matches. KDR obsession is a huge component of this. Most competitive FPS players don't know how do judge their performance by any other metric and these types of players will always seek to pad their KDR. I've posted some ideas about measuring Mercenary performance and moving away from the KDR here. One solution is to create tiered contracts. The system would work something like this. There will always be low-paying high sec battles (battles which occur in the highest security space in EVE). Any type of gear is allowed in these matches, but the rewards are balanced to allow players using standard gear to make a profit if they play well. These matches would never provide enough money to support the constant use of Advanced and Prototype gear. However, after meeting certain criteria, CONCORD (the in game space police) offer the Merc low-security space contracts. These low-security battles would have rewards balanced to allow players using advanced gear to make a profit if they play well. After meeting even certain criteria, CONCORD would offer Null-security contracts which are balanced to allow mercenaries to make a profit in proto gear if they play well. The amount of net profit (isk earned - isk lost) would only slightly increase between the different battles, an example of which is below. Type of Space --- AVG ISK lost per match --- AVG ISK earned per match --- AVG Profit per match High Security ---- 60,000 ISK ---- 180,000 ISK ---- 120,000 ISK Low Security --- 140,000 ISK ---- 290,000 ISK ---- 150,000 ISK Null Security ---- 340,000 ISK ---- 540,000 ISK ----- 200,000 ISK Players are incentivized into the higher paying matches, but the ISK advantage is not so significant. The way ISK payout is calculated would need an extreme makeover (currently it favors time in game, not WP earned, Kills, or any other participation based mechanic) Also, some anti-afk system would need to be implemented. And the system would need to be able to distinguish the difference between someone farming ISK in Militia gear or farming KDR in prototype gear. Access to low-sec and null-sec battles would never be permanent! Instead access would be based around player performance which factors in the level of equipment used at each tier level. Qualifying for Low sec access by using prototype gear in high sec battles will be much harder, because the system would factor in your use of prototype gear and require a much higher level of performance each match to meet the criteria. If you use militia gear in Null sec battles you will be unlikely to meet the standard required to maintain access to null sec battles. If your performance dips below the required level, you will receive an official CONCORD warning or two, after which your access to contracts of that tier will be removed and you will be blocked from obtaining access for a period of time. After that, you can earn access to the next tier again. So if you try to farm ISK in militia gear, there is a good chance that you will dip below the required performance level and your access to the better paying contracts is cut off for a certain period of time. If you KDR *****, you will be much less likely to obtain access to the higher paying battles and thus have to grind your ISK in high sec battles. I am opposed to requiring or restricting gear of any type, there just needs to be appropriate consequences. If you take Militia gear into a null sec battle there should be some serious disadvantages. Similarly, if you bring prototype gear into high sec battles there should be some serious disadvantages. This mechanic would need to be balanced and tested. But in my opinion, is another way to address the problems of our current system.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 100	Posted - 2013.06.03 22:10:00 - [128] - Quote Darth Threatius wrote: LOL, ok ? are you playing the same game as everyone else or reading the same thread? ISK is based off your contribution to the match and the skill level of the opposing team along with the equip. they use. I guess you are saying that ISK is only earned by KDR stats. ISK is not based on the equipment the enemy team uses it's based on the equipment the enemy team loses. i.e. if you're not killing the enemy team you're not building up ISK to be split up at the end. If your team isn't killing anyone it doesn't matter if you build +2000wp hacking objectives and doing logi stuff you're going to get crap for a payout compared to what you would have gotten. This is why the payout system is f'd up, it doesn't matter how well you preform the entirety of your reward is resting on the gear your opponent decides to throw at you and if you're running proto gear and you wipe out 50 militia gear people and die even once you stand a damn good chance of ending up in the red.
Darth Threatius 5o1st 1	Posted - 2013.06.03 22:31:00 - [129] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: Darth Threatius wrote: LOL, ok ? are you playing the same game as everyone else or reading the same thread? ISK is based off your contribution to the match and the skill level of the opposing team along with the equip. they use. I guess you are saying that ISK is only earned by KDR stats. ISK is not based on the equipment the enemy team uses it's based on the equipment the enemy team loses. i.e. if you're not killing the enemy team you're not building up ISK to be split up at the end. If your team isn't killing anyone it doesn't matter if you build +2000wp hacking objectives and doing logi stuff you're going to get crap for a payout compared to what you would have gotten. This is why the payout system is f'd up, it doesn't matter how well you preform the entirety of your reward is resting on the gear your opponent decides to throw at you and if you're running proto gear and you wipe out 50 militia gear people and die even once you stand a damn good chance of ending up in the red. Sooooo if your opponent is running milita gear then you should run milita gear. Shouldn't be any need to use proto right?
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 101	Posted - 2013.06.03 22:53:00 - [130] - Quote Darth Threatius wrote: Sooooo if your opponent is running milita gear then you should run milita gear. Shouldn't be any need to use proto right? Stop trying to be a smart ass, you're doing a **** poor job of it. People that put enough time into the game to be able to afford/equip proto gear don't do it so they can look at how pretty it looks in the menu and play every game in militia gear. If you're going up against a team that's +90% militia gear that doesn't mean you should be forced into playing in militia gear.

Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 242	Posted - 2013.06.03 23:44:00 - [131] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: Darth Threatius wrote: Sooooo if your opponent is running milita gear then you should run milita gear. Shouldn't be any need to use proto right? Stop trying to be a smart ass, you're doing a **** poor job of it. People that put enough time into the game to be able to afford/equip proto gear don't do it so they can look at how pretty it looks in the menu and play every game in militia gear. If you're going up against a team that's +90% militia gear that doesn't mean you should be forced into playing in militia gear. No one forces you. It's just stupidly inefficient not to use MLT or STD gear.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 311	Posted - 2013.06.04 02:44:00 - [132] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Mike Poole wrote: Darth Threatius wrote: Sooooo if your opponent is running milita gear then you should run milita gear. Shouldn't be any need to use proto right? Stop trying to be a smart ass, you're doing a **** poor job of it. People that put enough time into the game to be able to afford/equip proto gear don't do it so they can look at how pretty it looks in the menu and play every game in militia gear. If you're going up against a team that's +90% militia gear that doesn't mean you should be forced into playing in militia gear. No one forces you. It's just stupidly inefficient not to use MLT or STD gear. It's stupidly inefficient to play at all if you can AFK farm and get the current payout.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 245	Posted - 2013.06.04 02:53:00 - [133] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: Mike Poole wrote: Darth Threatius wrote: Sooooo if your opponent is running milita gear then you should run milita gear. Shouldn't be any need to use proto right? Stop trying to be a smart ass, you're doing a **** poor job of it. People that put enough time into the game to be able to afford/equip proto gear don't do it so they can look at how pretty it looks in the menu and play every game in militia gear. If you're going up against a team that's +90% militia gear that doesn't mean you should be forced into playing in militia gear. No one forces you. It's just stupidly inefficient not to use MLT or STD gear. It's stupidly inefficient to play at all if you can AFK farm and get the current payout. Others have said that the payout tends to be quite meager without any WP and i haven't AFKed yet but for the sake of the argument i agree. I still believe that the high AFK payout (should this be the case) is the problem, not that the general payout is too low. I still stand by my statement that i think proto gear was never supposed to be sustainable by anything but FPS gods and thus see no issue in the fact that it's nigh impossible to turn a profit on the average insta match. But i think both established that already.
Thurak1 Psygod9 RISE of LEGION 5	Posted - 2013.06.04 03:06:00 - [134] - Quote I think the payouts should be based right on WP's. After all you earn warpoints with both taking objectivs destroying buildings and killing players so if the system was balanced on how much kills and building destruction is worth than payouts based on war points would be very fair. I would take out getting any payment based on time in the map. If your not contributing and have 0 WP you should get 0 reward. This would make afk camping pointless. As far as gear goes honestly with better gear and more gameplay you should be able to contribute more to your team with more kills or hacks or something so better gear really should equate to better payouts when payout is based on WP. For the post based on making proto gear affordable. It takes more than isk to get into proto gear and if you suck even if payouts are increased crappy players still wont be able to afford proto gear for long.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 311	Posted - 2013.06.04 04:04:00 - [135] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: I think the payouts should be based right on WP's. After all you earn warpoints with both taking objectivs destroying buildings and killing players so if the system was balanced on how much kills and building destruction is worth than payouts based on war points would be very fair. I would take out getting any payment based on time in the map. If your not contributing and have 0 WP you should get 0 reward. This would make afk camping pointless. As far as gear goes honestly with better gear and more gameplay you should be able to contribute more to your team with more kills or hacks or something so better gear really should equate to better payouts when payout is based on WP. For the post based on making proto gear affordable. It takes more than isk to get into proto gear and if you suck even if payouts are increased crappy players still wont be able to afford proto gear for long. And we have a winner. Thanks for making me feel less insane. I was truly starting to worry.
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2013.06.04 13:56:00 - [136] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: I think the payouts should be based right on WP's. After all you earn warpoints with both taking objectivs destroying buildings and killing players so if the system was balanced on how much kills and building destruction is worth than payouts based on war points would be very fair. I would take out getting any payment based on time in the map. If your not contributing and have 0 WP you should get 0 reward. This would make afk camping pointless. As far as gear goes honestly with better gear and more gameplay you should be able to contribute more to your team with more kills or hacks or something so better gear really should equate to better payouts when payout is based on WP. For the post based on making proto gear affordable. It takes more than isk to get into proto gear and if you suck even if payouts are increased crappy players still wont be able to afford proto gear for long. There are better ways to eliminate the AFK problem than radically altering the payout table to base it nearly entirely on WP. The problem is you're going to chase away all of the new players just out of the battle academy. You can detect if they ever leave the MCC, how much damage they do to other players (even if they don't get a kill or kill assist), how much time are they spending within X meters of an objective, how many times have they died? etc. These metrics will look very different for someone going AFK and a guy with crap gear just starting out getting stomped by guys wearing the most expensive suits in pub matches. People going AFK should get booted from the match and receive 0 ISK, people struggling to get started while getting pubstomped should still get a decent payout even if they have very low WPs. The bar to get into Proto gear is actually very low when you see this game 10+ years out. If it ever gets to the point where more than the absolute badasses can make a profit wearing proto in the open matches then the game will be broken and need to be re-balanaced.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 314	Posted - 2013.06.04 15:04:00 - [137] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Thurak1 wrote: I think the payouts should be based right on WP's. After all you earn warpoints with both taking objectivs destroying buildings and killing players so if the system was balanced on how much kills and building destruction is worth than payouts based on war points would be very fair. I would take out getting any payment based on time in the map. If your not contributing and have 0 WP you should get 0 reward. This would make afk camping pointless. As far as gear goes honestly with better gear and more gameplay you should be able to contribute more to your team with more kills or hacks or something so better gear really should equate to better payouts when payout is based on WP. For the post based on making proto gear affordable. It takes more than isk to get into proto gear and if you suck even if payouts are increased crappy players still wont be able to afford proto gear for long. There are better ways to eliminate the AFK problem than radically altering the payout table to base it nearly entirely on WP. The problem is you're going to chase away all of the new players just out of the battle academy. You can detect if they ever leave the MCC, how much damage they do to other players (even if they don't get a kill or kill assist), how much time are they spending within X meters of an objective, how many times have they died? etc. These metrics will look very different for someone going AFK and a guy with crap gear just starting out getting stomped by guys wearing the most expensive suits in pub matches. People going AFK should get booted from the match and receive 0 ISK, people struggling to get started while getting pubstomped should still get a decent payout even if they have very low WPs. The bar to get into Proto gear is actually very low when you see this game 10+ years out. If it ever gets to the point where more than the absolute badasses can make a profit wearing proto in the open matches then the game will be broken and need to be re-balanaced. It still comes down to what the individual mercs bring to the battlefield at a given time. You could have a guy in 10 years with everything maxed out, but he can only bring a small portion of that SP to the battlefield with each clone. This game is ultimately decided by teamwork and tactics. People really seem to get hung up on proto gear. In 2 or 3 years if guys still aren't able to afford running around in proto gear then I doubt they'll be playing. Could you imagine CoD or BF3 players only being able to run LVL 1 gear 90% of the time? It's silly, I don't know why you guys are so hung up on it. If ISK payouts are based on performance then it'll make losing the proto gear less of an impact. I can drop into a match and supply proto uplinks and nanohives and get further than a dude running militia gear that kills 30 enemy. To me it's better to supply the battlefield and turn the tide of a battle with a well placed uplink than it is to kill 30 enemy wearing militia gear. In other words the game will be better for everyone. The higher tier gear is better and requires more SP for a reason, it's better. To come up with some weird logic that better gear on the battlefield is bad for the game is possibly the dumbest thing I've heard all year.
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2013.06.04 16:51:00 - [138] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: In 2 or 3 years if guys still aren't able to afford running around in proto gear then I doubt they'll be playing. If everyone is running around in proto gear 100% of the time in 2 or 3 years the game will be broken. Quote: Could you imagine CoD or BF3 players only being able to run LVL 1 gear 90% of the time? It's silly, I don't know why you guys are so hung up on it. Because this isn't CoD or BF3. It's NOT SUPPOSED TO BE! Your mental model of how it's supposed to work is broken. You seem to think it's based on when you have the skills to use gear you should be able to use it constantly. It's intentionally designed not to work that way. Instead it's expected for nearly all players to run around in isk-efficient setups MOST OF THE TIME--YES EVEN IF THEY CAN FIT OUT VERY EXPENSIVE FITS, and when they're willing to trade the risk of an ISK-loss, they can essentially convert that ISK into the ability to dominate on the battlefield until they die. It's a risk-reward mechanism that will keep this game interesting for a long time, it's about balance. The proto gear will get pulled out for Planetary Conquest mode and other similar high-stakes situations. It also gets pulled out if you have a huge wad of cash from running all of those cheaper fits and feel like being a badass for a while and don't mind burning through some ISK to make it happen. Quote: If ISK payouts are based on performance then it'll make losing the proto gear less of an impact. I can drop into a match and supply proto uplinks and nanohives and get further than a dude running militia gear that kills 30 enemy. To me it's better to supply the battlefield and turn the tide of a battle with a well placed uplink than it is to kill 30 enemy wearing militia gear. In other words the game will be better for everyone. The higher tier gear is better and requires more SP for a reason, it's better. To come up with some weird logic that better gear on the battlefield is bad for the game is possibly the dumbest thing I've heard all year. It's only better for everyone if some people have the better gear and others don't. If players can afford to run around in proto all of the time, then they're not "turning the tide of battle" they're just like everyone else in proto. That's the point, the whole thing gets watered down just like in MMO's with the gear treadmill. It keeps it MORE INTERESTING by having the risk/reward mechanism. Take a look at how things work in EVE, because that's the model behind DUST514--yes they're different games, but this mechanism is what's kept EVE balanced and fun for over 10 years without everyone running around in 1 Billion ISK ships 24/7. It works well, and it's fun to take out someone's expensive ship. The CoD BF3 model will get boring fast.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 317	Posted - 2013.06.04 17:37:00 - [139] - Quote You'll have to point out where I said I wanted the risk removed. Where I said that I wanted proto suits to mean automatic ISK windfall after each match. Of course there is risk in losing money. I'm talking about being rewarded more for good performance. Whether it's in a militia suit or a super duper tech III ultra awesome suit. The fact remains that you can generate more WP in a proto suit with proto equipment. I totally agree with everyone that it's not WORTH the risk right now because you aren't compensated enough to generate WP. The payout for 2500 WP is not incentive enough to strive past 800 WP. Or even 0 WP sitting in the MCC. This is my point. If we were rewarded more for WP you'd see more people playing the game as intended. They'd be risking more for the perceived payoff. It's simply really. It is a capitalist ideal. If you are unfamiliar with it google "how the world works". Perhaps looking up the definition of incentive will help you before you try to tackle capitalism. I bring that up because you are all so quick to point out the Eve world. New Eden is nothing without incentive.
Denidil Taureran Turalyon Plus 4	Posted - 2013.06.04 17:40:00 - [140] - Quote Adding another voice to the "Fix Payouts" chorus. Even as a new player I can see the payouts are jacked up.

Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 319	Posted - 2013.06.04 17:52:00 - [141] - Quote Denidil Taureran wrote: Adding another voice to the "Fix Payouts" chorus. Even as a new player I can see the payouts are jacked up. I had a match last night where I generated 1300 WP, but only managed 1 kill. Zero deaths. Payout 350,000 ISK I had other matches with over 2000 WP where I received much less. I ran 95% proto last night and turned a profit. It's possible, but it doesn't change the fact that the rewards are off in regards to out performing others on the team. To be honest I'm ready for all of these militia gear heroes to meet up in our public channel (sand castles) this evening. I'm ready to see some of these dudes in action. I'll even front some ISK so you guys can run an advanced weapon ever 20 matches or so.
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2013.06.04 18:44:00 - [142] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: You'll have to point out where I said I wanted the risk removed. Where I said that I wanted proto suits to mean automatic ISK windfall after each match. You want to be able to wear proto 24/7 in pub matches and not loose money doing it. That's minimizing the risk to a stupidly low level. ISK becomes meaningless in DUST in that scenario. Quote: Of course there is risk in losing money. I'm talking about being rewarded more for good performance. Whether it's in a militia suit or a super duper tech III ultra awesome suit. You already get more ISK for doing better, you just want to get A LOT more isk for doing better, and A LOT less ISK for people who suck (i.e. the new people). So riddle me this: why in the ** would someone want to keep grinding away getting ridiculously low payouts in crap newbie gear and getting killed dozens of times, over and over again while you mow them down in your expensive fits without any hope of improvement in their future? YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE ANYONE TO FIGHT, BECAUSE THEY'LL QUIT. That's what Google told me when I looked up "how the world works." And guess what? When people quit, DUST 514 will go under, BECAUSE YOU NEED PLAYERS TO FUND THE GAME. That also came up when I Googled "how the world works." You should read up a little more about incentives yourself. Quote: The fact remains that you can generate more WP in a proto suit with proto equipment. I totally agree with everyone that it's not WORTH the risk right now because you aren't compensated enough to generate WP. The payout for 2500 WP is not incentive enough to strive past 800 WP. Or even 0 WP sitting in the MCC. This is my point. This is BY DESIGN, INTENTIONAL, HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE, "THE WAY THE WORLD WORKS IN NEW EDEN"--look those up so you can wrap you head around it. AFK is a separate issue and can be dealt with independently of ruining the payout mechanism balance. Quote:** If we were rewarded more for WP you'd see more people playing the game as intended. The game is working as intended. You're NOT SUPPOSED TO RUN EXPENSIVE GEAR 24/7. It's meant for special occasions. All of the things you're talking about are what Planetary Conquest is designed for. That's the place where you wear your best gear, because your corp will own planets that generate lots of ISK which will help fund the cost of your high-end suits. Instant battles are meant to be fought in cheaper gear, and accessible to people just out of the academy. Watch the Planetary Conquest Fanfest talk to help you understand it.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 118	Posted - 2013.06.04 18:52:00 - [143] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: All of the things you're talking about are what Planetary Conquest is designed for. That's the place where you wear your best gear, because your corp will own planets that generate lots of ISK which will help fund the cost of your high-end suits. Instant battles are meant to be fought in cheaper gear, and accessible to people just out of the academy. Watch the Planetary Conquest Fanfest talk to help you understand it. And everyone that isn't in a big corporation or didn't rush to grab districts and can't actively participate in the deeper Planetary Conquest bits is supposed to sit on their thumb and deal with running inferior fits or falling into the red after games no matter their performance?
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 254	Posted - 2013.06.04 19:07:00 - [144] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: Vell0cet wrote: All of the things you're talking about are what Planetary Conquest is designed for. That's the place where you wear your best gear, because your corp will own planets that generate lots of ISK which will help fund the cost of your high-end suits. Instant battles are meant to be fought in cheaper gear, and accessible to people just out of the academy. Watch the Planetary Conquest Fanfest talk to help you understand it. And everyone that isn't in a big corporation or didn't rush to grab districts and can't actively participate in the deeper Planetary Conquest bits is supposed to sit on their thumb and deal with running inferior fits or falling into the red after games no matter their performance? Yes, because their playstile doesn't involve significant risk if they don't want it to. New Eden and all...
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 319	Posted - 2013.06.04 19:13:00 - [145] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Mike Poole wrote: Vell0cet wrote: All of the things you're talking about are what Planetary Conquest is designed for. That's the place where you wear your best gear, because your corp will own planets that generate lots of ISK which will help fund the cost of your high-end suits. Instant battles are meant to be fought in cheaper gear, and accessible to people just out of the academy. Watch the Planetary Conquest Fanfest talk to help you understand it. And everyone that isn't in a big corporation or didn't rush to grab districts and can't actively participate in the deeper Planetary Conquest bits is supposed to sit on their thumb and deal with running inferior fits or falling into the red after games no matter their performance? Yes, because their playstile doesn't involve significant risk if they don't want it to. New Eden and all... So with a straight face. And actual thought put into your response you believe that 95% of the player base should never run expensive gear unless they happen upon a chance to participate in a PC battle? That can't be. you can't really mean that.
Seras Vikutoria Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS. 0	Posted - 2013.06.04 19:51:00 - [146] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: It's crazy to think they haven't come up with a better system. I'm in a proto suit with a maxed out weapon. I'm going to play a different game and sign into Dust when we have a PC battle. Check that my MD is broken so it's only decent in pub matches against people running cheap suits to save up for PC battles. This is a dilemma. I love this game and I want to see it succeed, but I can't sustain grinding 15-20 hours a week for SP. I certainly won't grind for that SP if its in a starter suit. Change the payouts for the love of god. First: Dust is supposed to be an MMOFPS grinding game and CCP wanted it to have a steep learning curve. If you don't want to farm SP you can play any other FPS game and have fun. Second and Last: Now that DUST is part of New Eden some rules/behaviours from EVE ONLINE have been applied to this game (Awoxing etc) I will list some of them below.Replace words like "Fly" or "Ship" to dropsuits/fitiings(You get the point) Never fly something (or with something in the cargo) you can't afford to lose. Yes, not even in highsec. Scamming and unethical behaviour some would consider griefing is not only allowed, it is encouraged and rewarded by the game mechanics. If you lose stuff, it's almost always your fault. Really, only yours. There is no such thing as "a fair fight" or "an unfair fight". There's only "a fight". Circumstances are irrelevant. Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you. Just because you can fly something doesn't mean you should.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 255	Posted - 2013.06.04 19:56:00 - [147] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: Mike Poole wrote: Vell0cet wrote: All of the things you're talking about are what Planetary Conquest is designed for. That's the place where you wear your best gear, because your corp will own planets that generate lots of ISK which will help fund the cost of your high-end suits. Instant battles are meant to be fought in cheaper gear, and accessible to people just out of the academy. Watch the Planetary Conquest Fanfest talk to help you understand it. And everyone that isn't in a big corporation or didn't rush to grab districts and can't actively participate in the deeper Planetary Conquest bits is supposed to sit on their thumb and deal with running inferior fits or falling into the red after games no matter their performance? Yes, because their playstile doesn't involve significant risk if they don't want it to. New Eden and all... So with a straight face. And actual thought put into your response you believe that 95% of the player base should never run expensive gear unless they happen upon a chance to participate in a PC battle? That can't be. you can't really mean that. I already have explained to you that i mean it, why i mean it, why this game is designed around this very concept and why i am perfectly fine with it. Barring some initial misconceptions in this discussion, pretty much everyone who was critical of your notion understood that this is the mechanic you are objecting to. They were critical because they not only do not see a problem, but value this very mechanic for what it is.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 119	Posted - 2013.06.04 19:57:00 - [148] - Quote Seras Vikutoria wrote: There is no such thing as "a fair fight" or "an unfair fight". There's only "a fight". Circumstances are irrelevant. No such thing as "an unfair fight"? In a game where at any moment the finger of god can be called down to wipe out an entire squad without touching friendly targets? Or where you have redline snipers/tanks taking potshots over hills at people that can't even attempt to counter them?
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 257	Posted - 2013.06.04 20:01:00 - [149] - Quote Mike Poole wrote: Seras Vikutoria wrote: There is no such thing as "a fair fight" or "an unfair fight". There's only "a fight". Circumstances are irrelevant. No such thing as "an unfair fight"? In a game where at any moment the finger of god can be called down to wipe out an entire squad without touching friendly targets? Or where you have redline snipers/tanks taking potshots over hills at people that can't even attempt to counter them? Circumstances are irrelevant. That's the important message here.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 319	Posted - 2013.06.04 20:27:00 - [150] - Quote Seras Vikutoria wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: It's crazy to think they haven't come up with a better system. I'm in a proto suit with a maxed out weapon. I'm going to play a different game and sign into Dust when we have a PC battle. Check that my MD is broken so it's only decent in pub matches against people running cheap suits to save up for PC battles. This is a dilemma. I love this game and I want to see it succeed, but I can't sustain grinding 15-20 hours a week for SP. I certainly won't grind for that SP if its in a starter suit. Change the payouts for the love of god. First: Dust is supposed to be an MMOFPS grinding game and CCP wanted it to have a steep learning curve. If you don't want to farm SP you can play any other FPS game and have fun. Second and Last: Now that DUST is part of New Eden some rules/behaviours from EVE ONLINE have been applied to this game (Awoxing etc) I will list some of them below.Replace words like "Fly" or "Ship" to dropsuits/fitiings(You get the point) Never fly something (or with something in the cargo) you can't afford to lose. Yes, not even in highsec. Scamming and unethical behaviour some would consider griefing is not only allowed, it is encouraged and rewarded by the game mechanics. If you lose stuff, it's almost always your fault. Really, only yours. There is no such thing as "a fair fight" or "an unfair fight". There's only "a fight". Circumstances are irrelevant. Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you. Just because you can fly something doesn't mean you should. You lost me when you started comparing this game to Eve. While the games are tied together there is nothing really similar between the two. Besides the clone aspect. You can go mine an asteroid in high sec for hours each day for weeks on end with no problems. You could choose to never leave the station and do nothing but trade on the market. You can earn stacks of ISK without really even needing a ship. Could you imagine getting paid in EVE for sitting in station just because you joined a fleet and they completed a mission? I know the dynamics don't work that way, but it's the best I can come up with this very moment. Eve doesn't reward not participating. You could sit in station and do nothing, but that's all you'll get is passive SP.

Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 86	Posted - 2013.06.04 20:27:00 - [151] - Quote While I agree with all thats been said about not using gear you can't afford to lose, that would put many of us in positions where we are using almost completely militia setups because it really doesn't matter what we use, WP and isk destroyed are the two things that calculate end payout. I've had matches where I have over 2000 wp and walked away from them with almost 200,000 isk which tells me don't run proto no matter who you fight against in a pub match and also, don't run advanced either because you can get just as many wp using Basic gear with the odd addition of an advanced gun or even just some proto reppers to earn wp. This also tells me that Isk payouts are BROKEN. There is not enough reward to justify using gear that at best gives you a few more modules to use EVER in a pub match. PC battles on the other hand tend towards reasonable payouts compared to isk spent. Unfortunately we still need a way to get isk to fund PC and pay for shiny tanks/dropships/lavs/suits and we do not have a way to do this short of grinding for isk and sp. Eve has mining, industry, missions and a market, what do we have other than shooting people? The idea that a 50% increase in payout from a pubmatch is not such a bad idea. If there were a cap on earnings from a pub match that would be ok too so long as something like 500,000-1,000,000 isk payouts for high cominations of kills and wp were available. If we had industry or some way to farm isk like PI to pay for suits that cost about the same as a frigate in eve then I would feel fine about the matches paying out so little because there would be more to do to build a bit of isk then go use the isk but at this moment in time it is not. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, in this case the majority of players. We need a fix for this. Some way to earn isk rather that sometimes making isk. I know there are bpo suits and have them myself but I don't believe that this is the answer.
nukel head Knights of No Republic 26	Posted - 2013.06.04 22:22:00 - [152] - Quote Osbor robsO wrote: all passive SP would fix this grinding problem instantly also if your suit is THAT expensive, and you lose money on average using it, consider making the suit cheaper? the weapon and dropsuit are by far the most expensive parts of a fit. consider dropping down to an ADV weapon instead of proto? I agree. I don't understand all the complaining because it is not profitable to run proto gear exclusively. I think that was kind of the point of making it so expensive. All the statements like "I'm going to stop playing if I can't use my proto suit and gun all the time" seems...childish at best. I have proto gear and only use it for PC matches. I will mix in a proto suit in a match here and there just to try things out and get a feel for it, but I don't see it as something I should be able to use exclusively - ESPECIALLY NOT IN PUB MATCHES. There is no need for it there, at least not at this point. I make my money with my STD and some ADV gear. The high level stuff is for the serious matches. I actually get irritated when I see proto squads pub stomping. That's why I teach the new guys to focus on the darkest suit in the crowd and save orbitals for tight groups of them. The balance to trying to overpower with higher level tech is to be economically bled out. Then the game comes back to skill and tactics instead of the winner being the group with the most ISK.
Meeko Fent Mercenary incorperated 24	Posted - 2013.06.04 22:22:00 - [153] - Quote The one thing I got from those who want Payouts increased for using Proto was that "I'm using Proto to pub stomp new players, so I need to get paid more so I can scare more New Clientele away" Here's my Pay scale for Gear tiers, Militia- New Player Usage, Slightly more Wimpy Standard gear Standard- Use for when Insta-Battling, Really Unimportant PC/FW/ Contract Advanced- Use for FW/Contracts, Standard Level of importance PC Prototype- *Use for Only Key PC battles* As many People have said, Proto is NOT for Instant Battle. It is for battles you cant afford to lose. Adjusting Payout for Vehicale Usage could be done, as their Standard un-fitted loadouts cost more then a Fully fitted Proto Dropsuit
Rachoi HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 84	Posted - 2013.06.04 23:06:00 - [154] - Quote hah... i dont see why people need to worry about bringing proto gear into pub matches, unless all they really want to do is be a pubstomper, and that just makes you a target then. keep the suits cheap if you want to profit, hell, even in my ADV set up i use a fair amount of BPOs just so it stays hardened but still profitable. Proto is ONLY profitable in the high pay area of Planetary Conquest, since they hand you somewhere around a million ISK when you play through it. 'profit over victory' is a good way to see it, but if you really want to win AND profit, you need to manage your suits and fits a bit better
Thurak1 Psygod9 RISE of LEGION 8	Posted - 2013.06.04 23:48:00 - [155] - Quote One key thing to remember with what i had previously said is that it would also require a good working WP system. I think there are many things in the game that should give at least a few WP like drop uplinks. Right now i am exhausted though so i cant really think about this in depth but to me once a system of giving out WP's is fair for contributions to the team then it would be very fair to also base payout right on wp's maybe even as simple as making isk = wp x 10 or something so you could even predictibaly earn isk knowing how many hacks you get in a match. I do also agree that simply causing damadge even if it does not directly result in a kill should be rewarded especially for starter players. It shouldnt be a huge reward since damadge can be regened without an issue but there should be something for people running starter builds that cant seem to get a kill so they can still skill up and earn isk.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 320	Posted - 2013.06.04 23:59:00 - [156] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: The one thing I got from those who want Payouts increased for using Proto was that "I'm using Proto to pub stomp new players, so I need to get paid more so I can scare more New Clientele away" Here's my Pay scale for Gear tiers, Militia- New Player Usage, Slightly more Wimpy Standard gear Standard- Use for when Insta-Battling, Really Unimportant PC/FW/ Contract Advanced- Use for FW/Contracts, Standard Level of importance PC Prototype- *Use for Only Key PC battles* As many People have said, Proto is NOT for Instant Battle. It is for battles you cant afford to lose. Adjusting Payout for Vehicale Usage could be done, as their Standard un-fitted loadouts cost more then a Fully fitted Proto Dropsuit Jesus Christ, nobody wants more for using proto. We want more for performance over time in battle.
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2013.06.05 00:16:00 - [157] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Jesus Christ, nobody wants more for using proto. We want more for performance over time in battle. ...So that you can use proto in instant battles. You still haven't explained why a player fresh out of the academy wouldn't just delete the game when they can only earn a couple hundred WP at best while getting stomped over and over again. Your proposal would literally break the game mechanic that makes DUST 514 fun, interesting, and different from every other game out there (except for EVE). Go do some PC, and if your corp doesn't have the numbers, then recruit some more people. The system is balanced right now, if anything Proto is too CHEAP.
Rachoi HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 85	Posted - 2013.06.05 00:27:00 - [158] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Jesus Christ, nobody wants more for using proto. We want more for performance over time in battle. ...So that you can use proto in instant battles. You still haven't explained why a player fresh out of the academy wouldn't just delete the game when they can only earn a couple hundred WP at best while getting stomped over and over again. Your proposal would literally break the game mechanic that makes DUST 514 fun, interesting, and different from every other game out there (except for EVE). Go do some PC, and if your corp doesn't have the numbers, then recruit some more people. The system is balanced right now, if anything Proto is too CHEAP. i think proto is exactly where it should be in cost/power. because you CAN reach it, but to always use will kill your wallet, no ifs, ands, or buts. honestly i would NEVER risk one of my proto suits in a pub match, because it would make me a bigger target than a Madrugar in the middle of a compound. i HUNT proto users in pubs, with my adv gear, because i want them to learn not to waste so much isk to try and pubstomp. besides, if they made those Public fights so damned profitable, then there would be no useful FW in the future, and nobody would give a rat's ass about PC
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 321	Posted - 2013.06.05 00:49:00 - [159] - Quote I run proto all the time now. The OP was made when I was frustrated about losing big in a match, but it doesn't change the point. And I proposed a team deploy game mode that would clear the insta battles for newbros. Or just extend the academy to around 2 million skill points. I'm very concerned about new players. I'm all for doing things to help new players. But that's not what I'm talking about right now. I like to see action in these battles. Being rewarded for WP provides incentive to fight.
Helper Friendly Planetary Response Organization 18	Posted - 2013.06.05 00:51:00 - [160] - Quote Im confused with all the 14-2, 38-1, 50-4, KDR's being thrown around here. is this a KDR game or a "team" game in which your 14-2 self really means squat if your corp, clan, pals loose the match anyway. To often I see this in all game modes. There is always that one guy at the top of the loosing teams board who is sitting pretty with his KDR but his squads W/L ratio is crap bwahaha. I agree though that for how much things cost payout is crap. Im a logi so I die way more than I kill. Hmm. If I am providing assistance to my squad and get 1500 WP I should be paid more than the 14-2 guy who just played for kills and did nothing but. Just saying. Roles should also effect your payout. ( thanks to the qqers now I get nothing for repairing vehicles, installations, etc, only soldiers, putting me further in the line of fire defenseless). Big payout: Anti armor guys! Try it, build a cheapo anti armor suit. Go to pub match: Blow up anything that moves, turrets, supply depots, etc. Sure your KDR will suffer if your no good with the sidearm your choose but your will see massive ISK payouts! ( Maybe I shouldn't have shared that, I can feel the nerf hammer)

Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 321	Posted - 2013.06.05 00:53:00 - [161] - Quote Rachoi wrote: Vell0cet wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Jesus Christ, nobody wants more for using proto. We want more for performance over time in battle. ...So that you can use proto in instant battles. You still haven't explained why a player fresh out of the academy wouldn't just delete the game when they can only earn a couple hundred WP at best while getting stomped over and over again. Your proposal would literally break the game mechanic that makes DUST 514 fun, interesting, and different from every other game out there (except for EVE). Go do some PC, and if your corp doesn't have the numbers, then recruit some more people. The system is balanced right now, if anything Proto is too CHEAP. i think proto is exactly where it should be in cost/power. because you CAN reach it, but to always use will kill your wallet, no ifs, ands, or buts. honestly i would NEVER risk one of my proto suits in a pub match, because it would make me a bigger target than a Madrugar in the middle of a compound. i HUNT proto users in pubs, with my adv gear, because i want them to learn not to waste so much isk to try and pubstomp. besides, if they made those Public fights so damned profitable, then there would be no useful FW in the future, and nobody would give a rat's ass about PC You couldn't be more wrong. PC is the only thing worthwhile to play in the game, but it's not attainable for most of the player base. FW is actually where I'd like to see the team deploy with your corp signing up to fight for a side and reaping the benefits of LP and bigger payouts.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 321	Posted - 2013.06.05 00:56:00 - [162] - Quote Helper Friendly wrote: Im confused with all the 14-2, 38-1, 50-4, KDR's being thrown around here. is this a KDR game or a "team" game in which your 14-2 self really means squat if your corp, clan, pals loose the match anyway. To often I see this in all game modes. There is always that one guy at the top of the loosing teams board who is sitting pretty with his KDR but his squads W/L ratio is crap bwahaha. I agree though that for how much things cost payout is crap. Im a logi so I die way more than I kill. Hmm. If I am providing assistance to my squad and get 1500 WP I should be paid more than the 14-2 guy who just played for kills and did nothing but. Just saying. Roles should also effect your payout. ( thanks to the qqers now I get nothing for repairing vehicles, installations, etc, only soldiers, putting me further in the line of fire defenseless). Big payout: Anti armor guys! Try it, build a cheapo anti armor suit. Go to pub match: Blow up anything that moves, turrets, supply depots, etc. Sure your KDR will suffer if your no good with the sidearm your choose but your will see massive ISK payouts! ( Maybe I shouldn't have shared that, I can feel the nerf hammer) I'll show you all about WP and profit tomorrow evening. Are you guys bringing ringers or what?
Rachoi HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 86	Posted - 2013.06.05 00:59:00 - [163] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Rachoi wrote: Vell0cet wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Jesus Christ, nobody wants more for using proto. We want more for performance over time in battle. ...So that you can use proto in instant battles. You still haven't explained why a player fresh out of the academy wouldn't just delete the game when they can only earn a couple hundred WP at best while getting stomped over and over again. Your proposal would literally break the game mechanic that makes DUST 514 fun, interesting, and different from every other game out there (except for EVE). Go do some PC, and if your corp doesn't have the numbers, then recruit some more people. The system is balanced right now, if anything Proto is too CHEAP. i think proto is exactly where it should be in cost/power. because you CAN reach it, but to always use will kill your wallet, no ifs, ands, or buts. honestly i would NEVER risk one of my proto suits in a pub match, because it would make me a bigger target than a Madrugar in the middle of a compound. i HUNT proto users in pubs, with my adv gear, because i want them to learn not to waste so much isk to try and pubstomp. besides, if they made those Public fights so damned profitable, then there would be no useful FW in the future, and nobody would give a rat's ass about PC You couldn't be more wrong. PC is the only thing worthwhile to play in the game, but it's not attainable for most of the player base. FW is actually where I'd like to see the team deploy with your corp signing up to fight for a side and reaping the benefits of LP and bigger payouts. i would like to see the FW be improved more honestly, the issue with it though is that there is no diversity in the modes, Skirmish only tipe of stuff, and i am bored to tears with Skirmish. i want to see Skirmish 1.0, with how the true vets go on about it, maybe it would finally give some people a feel of urgency when fighting over a map
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 321	Posted - 2013.06.05 01:04:00 - [164] - Quote ^I agree, I'm bored with pub matches and PC battles are still irritating with the lag. Bigger payouts will bring more fun. Better gear=more fun. I'm not awesome or anything, but I can break even running proto all the time. Some of you frugal bastads should try its more fun. I'm done arguing about it.
Seras Vikutoria Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS. 1	Posted - 2013.06.05 07:57:00 - [165] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Seras Vikutoria wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: It's crazy to think they haven't come up with a better system. I'm in a proto suit with a maxed out weapon. I'm going to play a different game and sign into Dust when we have a PC battle. Check that my MD is broken so it's only decent in pub matches against people running cheap suits to save up for PC battles. This is a dilemma. I love this game and I want to see it succeed, but I can't sustain grinding 15-20 hours a week for SP. I certainly won't grind for that SP if its in a starter suit. Change the payouts for the love of god. First: Dust is supposed to be an MMOFPS grinding game and CCP wanted it to have a steep learning curve. If you don't want to farm SP you can play any other FPS game and have fun. Second and Last: Now that DUST is part of New Eden some rules/behaviours from EVE ONLINE have been applied to this game (Awoxing etc) I will list some of them below.Replace words like "Fly" or "Ship" to dropsuits/fitiings(You get the point) Never fly something (or with something in the cargo) you can't afford to lose. Yes, not even in highsec. Scamming and unethical behaviour some would consider griefing is not only allowed, it is encouraged and rewarded by the game mechanics. If you lose stuff, it's almost always your fault. Really, only yours. There is no such thing as "a fair fight" or "an unfair fight". There's only "a fight". Circumstances are irrelevant. Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you. Just because you can fly something doesn't mean you should. You lost me when you started comparing this game to Eve. While the games are tied together there is nothing really similar between the two. Besides the clone aspect. You can go mine an asteroid in high sec for hours each day for weeks on end with no problems. You could choose to never leave the station and do nothing but trade on the market. You can earn stacks of ISK without really even needing a ship. Could you imagine getting paid in EVE for sitting in station just because you joined a fleet and they completed a mission? I know the dynamics don't work that way, but it's the best I can come up with this very moment. Eve doesn't reward not participating. You could sit in station and do nothing, but that's all you'll get is passive SP. This game is only 1 month old and you think all these above you mention will not be included in future patches? CCP said it will include PvE matches with drones. "Free ISK" The 2 markets will merge and you can sent items and isk to other characters.This will greatly affect the Planetary Conquest and the 2 sides will throw a lot of money so they will not lose sovereignty. When then market merges you will sit hours on market just to see where is cheaper and where is more expensive so basically you sit on your station and earn ISK All these above cannot be completed within a month so this game has potential and future and don't expect all these to be implemented within a month.Most FPS in ps3 didn't last this long
nukel head Knights of No Republic 27	Posted - 2013.06.05 16:17:00 - [166] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: The one thing I got from those who want Payouts increased for using Proto was that "I'm using Proto to pub stomp new players, so I need to get paid more so I can scare more New Clientele away" Here's my Pay scale for Gear tiers, Militia- New Player Usage, Slightly more Wimpy Standard gear Standard- Use for when Insta-Battling, Really Unimportant PC/FW/ Contract Advanced- Use for FW/Contracts, Standard Level of importance PC Prototype- *Use for Only Key PC battles* As many People have said, Proto is NOT for Instant Battle. It is for battles you cant afford to lose. Adjusting Payout for Vehicale Usage could be done, as their Standard un-fitted loadouts cost more then a Fully fitted Proto Dropsuit Jesus Christ, nobody wants more for using proto. We want more for performance over time in battle. Your post is ENTIRELY BASED ON USING PROTO GEAR. If you were using anything else you would have made money.
Vile Heathen Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 457	Posted - 2013.06.05 16:35:00 - [167] - Quote It sounds like you're saying you want your cake (40-1 KDR etc), and eat it too (positive payout upon loss of HAV). If payout is only/mostly based on war points, this would mean all the poor noobs in militia suits would get little or no share of the money. I know this game is all about capitalism and corporations and stuff, but you gotta remember that you've (I'm assuming) been here since beta. New players joining now under this new rule you're proposing would make it unappealing to newcomers. And for fraksakes... Why would you regularly bring expensive HAVs to pub matches?!
Rachoi HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 87	Posted - 2013.06.05 22:46:00 - [168] - Quote Vile Heathen wrote: It sounds like you're saying you want your cake (40-1 KDR etc), and eat it too (positive payout upon loss of HAV). If payout is only/mostly based on war points, this would mean all the poor noobs in militia suits would get little or no share of the money. I know this game is all about capitalism and corporations and stuff, but you gotta remember that you've (I'm assuming) been here since beta. New players joining now under this new rule you're proposing would make it unappealing to newcomers. And for fraksakes... Why would you regularly bring expensive HAVs to pub matches?! hah, true on all points. what the vets that run proto/HAV all the bloody time would completely ruin the game for aonyone new coming in, because of the sheer amount of grinding the newbies would need to do just to make enough to use anything that would climb the ladder. there should be a bit more pay to the board toppers of WP [for god's sake i saw a logi go 1/3 and have near 3k warpoints] and get away from the importnance of that CoD shitset of KDR, because lets face it, KRD doesn't mean jack diddly for most things, its all about the Warpoints
Thurak1 Psygod9 RISE of LEGION 11	Posted - 2013.06.06 05:55:00 - [169] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Thurak1 wrote: I think the payouts should be based right on WP's. After all you earn warpoints with both taking objectivs destroying buildings and killing players so if the system was balanced on how much kills and building destruction is worth than payouts based on war points would be very fair. I would take out getting any payment based on time in the map. If your not contributing and have 0 WP you should get 0 reward. This would make afk camping pointless. As far as gear goes honestly with better gear and more gameplay you should be able to contribute more to your team with more kills or hacks or something so better gear really should equate to better payouts when payout is based on WP. For the post based on making proto gear affordable. It takes more than isk to get into proto gear and if you suck even if payouts are increased crappy players still wont be able to afford proto gear for long. There are better ways to eliminate the AFK problem than radically altering the payout table to base it nearly entirely on WP. The problem is you're going to chase away all of the new players just out of the battle academy. You can detect if they ever leave the MCC, how much damage they do to other players (even if they don't get a kill or kill assist), how much time are they spending within X meters of an objective, how many times have they died? etc. These metrics will look very different for someone going AFK and a guy with crap gear just starting out getting stomped by guys wearing the most expensive suits in pub matches. People going AFK should get booted from the match and receive 0 ISK, people struggling to get started while getting pubstomped should still get a decent payout even if they have very low WPs. The bar to get into Proto gear is actually very low when you see this game 10+ years out. If it ever gets to the point where more than the absolute badasses can make a profit wearing proto in the open matches then the game will be broken and need to be re-balanaced. The largest problem with this sentimate is assuming proto would still be the best. If this game follows a track like eve did in 10 years there will be dropsuits that never existed before. It is irrational to plan 10 years down the road in a game like this at least then it comes to the payout system. I mean otherwise why not reward players with like 100 isk flat for winning and loosers 20isk because otherwise in 10 years players will be millionairs.
Thurak1 Psygod9 RISE of LEGION 11	Posted - 2013.06.06 05:58:00 - [170] - Quote Rachoi wrote: Vile Heathen wrote: It sounds like you're saying you want your cake (40-1 KDR etc), and eat it too (positive payout upon loss of HAV). If payout is only/mostly based on war points, this would mean all the poor noobs in militia suits would get little or no share of the money. I know this game is all about capitalism and corporations and stuff, but you gotta remember that you've (I'm assuming) been here since beta. New players joining now under this new rule you're proposing would make it unappealing to newcomers. And for fraksakes... Why would you regularly bring expensive HAVs to pub matches?! hah, true on all points. what the vets that run proto/HAV all the bloody time would completely ruin the game for aonyone new coming in, because of the sheer amount of grinding the newbies would need to do just to make enough to use anything that would climb the ladder. there should be a bit more pay to the board toppers of WP [for god's sake i saw a logi go 1/3 and have near 3k warpoints] and get away from the importnance of that CoD shitset of KDR, because lets face it, KRD doesn't mean jack diddly for most things, its all about the Warpoints Actually i am pretty new to the game. Only been playing a month. But once you know what gets you war points and you have a mic and learn to take direction you can earn some pretty good isk. Rewarding players that suck with high isk because they are new is a very poor idea. if you dont know what your doing deal with the fact your payouts will suck until you get a clue. The starter fits are free so you cant even loose money using them.

Cinnamon267 The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 79	Posted - 2013.06.06 06:52:00 - [171] - Quote Been thinking about this and I don't know if anyone else has talked about it. Just wanted to post it. ISK rewards are determined by time spent in a match and meta level of the stuff you kill, I believe. At least, when you kill people with higher level equipment, you earn more ISK in the end even if you are using proto gear, too. I'd imagine if more people were using higher level equipment, this might not ever be a problem. Since I have memories of playing against plenty of players with ADV and proto gear and receiving a much higher payout at the end. The systems are already in place. It's just barely anyone uses anything higher than STD gear. And when they do it's usually just the weapon. Or did I make this theory up whilst asleep?
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2013.06.06 11:03:00 - [172] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: The largest problem with this sentimate is assuming proto would still be the best. If this game follows a track like eve did in 10 years there will be dropsuits that never existed before. It is irrational to plan 10 years down the road in a game like this at least then it comes to the payout system. I mean otherwise why not reward players with like 100 isk flat for winning and loosers 20isk because otherwise in 10 years players will be millionairs. If you look at EVE, the payouts never changed despite adding ever-more expensive ships. You still get the same bounty for killing rats or running missions and new ships are orders of magnitude more expensive. Battleships have been around since the beginning and they have always been pricy, but attainable just like the Proto suits. Most players don't treat battleships as throw-away ships that they care to loose without something important on the line (unless they're rolling in ISK). Notice how this is still true 10 years later despite all of the bigger, shinier and more expensive ships out there? It's an indication that the balance works very well and will have excellent longevity. This has prevented the gear treadmill phenomena that most MMO's suffer from. I expect the Tech2 dropsuits to be outrageously expensive (relative to proto) to the point you very seldom see them in a pub match unless someone's just having fun and doesn't mind the ISK loss.
nukel head Knights of No Republic 28	Posted - 2013.06.06 15:38:00 - [173] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: Rachoi wrote: Vile Heathen wrote: It sounds like you're saying you want your cake (40-1 KDR etc), and eat it too (positive payout upon loss of HAV). If payout is only/mostly based on war points, this would mean all the poor noobs in militia suits would get little or no share of the money. I know this game is all about capitalism and corporations and stuff, but you gotta remember that you've (I'm assuming) been here since beta. New players joining now under this new rule you're proposing would make it unappealing to newcomers. And for fraksakes... Why would you regularly bring expensive HAVs to pub matches?! hah, true on all points. what the vets that run proto/HAV all the bloody time would completely ruin the game for aonyone new coming in, because of the sheer amount of grinding the newbies would need to do just to make enough to use anything that would climb the ladder. there should be a bit more pay to the board toppers of WP [for god's sake i saw a logi go 1/3 and have near 3k warpoints] and get away from the importnance of that CoD shitset of KDR, because lets face it, KRD doesn't mean jack diddly for most things, its all about the Warpoints Actually i am pretty new to the game. Only been playing a month. But once you know what gets you war points and you have a mic and learn to take direction you can earn some pretty good isk. Rewarding players that suck with high isk because they are new is a very poor idea. if you dont know what your doing deal with the fact your payouts will suck until you get a clue. The starter fits are free so you cant even loose money using them. I don't think that most would disagree with LOWERING the payout for poor or no performance. This is actually NEEDED for AFK players. However, I do disagree with what this thread is all about - payouts that make using proto gear for everything profitable. That becomes a huge reward for pubstomping and giant penalty for the newbs that are getting stomped. That is a very bad idea.


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