DUST Search - AFK Farming is the only way to sustain

Draco Cerberus wrote:

Mike Poole wrote:

Draco Cerberus wrote:

Thor, although I support the ability to make Isk I will take this opportunity to point out that the easiest way to do this is through massive amounts of WP. If you make 2000+ WP in a match it is likely that you will also make 400-500k isk that match. This is why I have been lobbying for a player market as well as manufacturing capabilities.

Wrong.

ISK payout isn't directly based on your WP.

For whatever asinine reason ISK payouts are based on the "value" of whatever enemy equipment you destroy during a game.

If you're fighting against a team that is using all expensive equipment and get 2000+ WP then you're going to get a large payout.

If you're fighting against a team that continuously spams militia gear and get 2000+ WP you're getting a crap payout.

The failure here is that your payout truly has almost ZERO basis on how well you play or how good your gear is but on the gear your enemy uses.

Can you propose something to fix this? I don't think that payouts should be strictly limited to WP but also believe that there has got to be a better way. A person in a 50k isk suit should be able to make a profit but unless they die less than 4 times in a match they generally will not.


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Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 92	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:20:00 - [1] - Quote If playing this game teaches you anything it's that the devs are either incredibly lazy or incredibly inept. There really isn't any other way to explain how even after the "release" of the game you have so many fundamental systems and mechanics that just don't function as they need to. The utter failure that is the ISK/WP system is just one of many examples of what is wrong with this game, things they seem entirely uninterested in fixing any time soon.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 92	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:27:00 - [2] - Quote Osbor robsO wrote: all passive SP would fix this grinding problem instantly also if your suit is THAT expensive, and you lose money on average using it, consider making the suit cheaper? the weapon and dropsuit are by far the most expensive parts of a fit. consider dropping down to an ADV weapon instead of proto? If the point of the game is to grind until you can use the best equipment and then never use it because it's too expensive... there's been a failure in the fundamental mechanics of the game.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 92	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:56:00 - [3] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Thor, although I support the ability to make Isk I will take this opportunity to point out that the easiest way to do this is through massive amounts of WP. If you make 2000+ WP in a match it is likely that you will also make 400-500k isk that match. This is why I have been lobbying for a player market as well as manufacturing capabilities. Wrong. ISK payout isn't directly based on your WP. For whatever asinine reason ISK payouts are based on the "value" of whatever enemy equipment you destroy during a game. If you're fighting against a team that is using all expensive equipment and get 2000+ WP then you're going to get a large payout. If you're fighting against a team that continuously spams militia gear and get 2000+ WP you're getting a crap payout. The failure here is that your payout truly has almost ZERO basis on how well you play or how good your gear is but on the gear your enemy uses.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 92	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:11:00 - [4] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Mike Poole wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: Thor, although I support the ability to make Isk I will take this opportunity to point out that the easiest way to do this is through massive amounts of WP. If you make 2000+ WP in a match it is likely that you will also make 400-500k isk that match. This is why I have been lobbying for a player market as well as manufacturing capabilities. Wrong. ISK payout isn't directly based on your WP. For whatever asinine reason ISK payouts are based on the "value" of whatever enemy equipment you destroy during a game. If you're fighting against a team that is using all expensive equipment and get 2000+ WP then you're going to get a large payout. If you're fighting against a team that continuously spams militia gear and get 2000+ WP you're getting a crap payout. The failure here is that your payout truly has almost ZERO basis on how well you play or how good your gear is but on the gear your enemy uses. Can you propose something to fix this? I don't think that payouts should be strictly limited to WP but also believe that there has got to be a better way. A person in a 50k isk suit should be able to make a profit but unless they die less than 4 times in a match they generally will not. You need to somehow scale payouts to reflect the "quality" of each soldier to some degree. Think of it this way. If you have a mercenary with a BB gun and a burlap sack for armor and another with state of the art equipment would you pay them the same exact rate for their services? The way things stand now I believe that every single player on a specific team gets the same exact payout at the end of a match based on the total losses suffered by the enemy. This is how in one match you can AFK and get 180K and in another fight to your best and still make 180K. You're never going to see the system improve though to the point where prototype armor becomes anything less than a pain to lose because it would mean more work for the developers. Once people are playing well enough and are able to play regularly in prototype gear what are they going to strive for next? The developers would need to provide another tier for them to aim for next to keep the game interesting. Instead they provide a system where playing in high tier gear is unprofitable meaning it always stays just out of reach for most players providing a goal most people will always strive for and never meet.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 93	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:25:00 - [5] - Quote Krom Ganesh wrote: But you forget our employers are up in space organizing planetary take overs. They aren't going to go through each soldier and inspect the level of their usual gear. Nor should they care as they are concerned with what results you achieve, not how you were equipped when you did it. However I agree the pay should account for performance more. Something along the lines of totalPay = basePay + destroyedGear * yourWP / totalTeamWP for the victors perhaps? Oh for christ's sake, drop the RP crap please. There should be nothing in the way of the server taking into account some combination of the meta value and total ISK value of a players equipment and factoring it into the payout provided.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 93	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:36:00 - [6] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: First to your suggestion: Why would a contractor care what someone brings to the field? He needs a certain job done and is happy for everything that get's destroyed on top of that. After the battle he looks through the available metrics to discern who did a better job and pays that one more. If doing the better job cost him millions more than what the job pays then this particular merc simply did a miscalculation. So a merc's "quality" is just his contribution, not his expenses. Except even in this game that ISN'T how it works. Payouts are practically, if not entirely, uniform across all players on a given team. You AFK in the ship and you make 200k, you fight your ass off and lose 100K in equipment you make 200k. As long as the rest of your team is at least messing around and killing people it's more profitable to afk in a starter fit than to actually play this game. As long as you're trying to make an argument in in-game terms then you're entirely leaving out the mercenary's point of view here. In a real situation the mercenary's involved wouldn't put up with this crap. They're putting their own funds on the line and getting paid as much as the guy sitting in the corner spending the entire battle using his rifle to scratch his ass. At that point any mercenary that values his money is going to either slack off like everyone else so they get their same payout for doing the same work or they take their services elsewhere.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 94	Posted - 2013.06.01 21:56:00 - [7] - Quote Arx Ardashir wrote: Well I don't know what the hell people are talking about with earning 150-200k in a match by AFKing. I just tried it and my team had some squad of 4 that stomped, with KDRs in the 20s, and I got a measly 28k ISK for sitting in the corner scratching my ass. So I'm pretty sure the ISK earned from destroying enemy equipment is scaled according to your rank on the Killboard, meaning it's scaled by WP earned. I earned 0 WP, got 16th place, and 28k ISK for my trouble. I'm sure the stop spot made around 10x that, at least. Try reading a bit for the MANY explanations on how the ISK system works. ISK payouts are dependent on your teams performance, specifically how much financial loss you incur against the opposing team. If your team gets stomped and can't cause any damage you're going to get a low payout no matter if you're afk or fighting head on. The people here saying they're getting 150-200k here for being AFK? They're teams weren't getting stomped and they got to reap the rewards.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 94	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:07:00 - [8] - Quote ShwerShwerShwer wrote: The thing is, proto gear was never intended to be ran 24/7 This isn't just about proto gear. That's just the worst example. If I wanted to equip my logi in all advanced gear that's something like 45k per fit. Anything more than 4 deaths, or sometimes 3 deaths with really horrible payouts, and I'm either in the red or barely scraping by.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 94	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:37:00 - [9] - Quote The ISK/WP/SP system is never going to be remedied because this game is developed by a group with a unique combination of both ignorance and incompetence. In a game like this one of the FIRST priorities you should have is devising a reward system that adequately compensates players for the effort they put in and is capable of financially supporting the play styles necessary for players of all skill levels to play the game. The current system amazingly manages to do neither. WP is rewarded in the laziest means possible for an almost bare minimum of actions, SP is rewarded almost purely for existing during a game and ISK payouts are at best arbitrarily decided. The fact that the game has been "released" and this most basic and critical system is barely developed speaks to how seriously the development of this game has been taken.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 95	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:06:00 - [10] - Quote Cinnamon267 wrote: Mike Poole wrote: The ISK/WP/SP system is never going to be remedied It will be remedied. Just not with your attitude. I wonder how much of this will be solved when a player market is introduced. I'd forgotten that unless all the children of the world join together clapping and singing CCP can't get the energy to do anything. The power of a positive attitude! Keep dreaming. Like I said this is a fundamental part of the game, something so basic and essential to how the game itself is played it's fairly amazing it wasn't the first thing they ironed out and shocking that they "released" the game with it still in the state it is. This isn't an issue you rationalize away by hoping that the eventual development of something tangentially related might provide some alleviation.

Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 95	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:31:00 - [11] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Would I like all of this now and or yesterday? Sure. But I'd rather CCP take their time than rush things, doubly so because this game is being road mapped on a 10 year plan with no intent to discontinue development even after that mark so we're going to see continuing and consistent updates roughly ever 3-6 months plus hotfixes. 0.02 ISK Cross I REALLY wish people would stop using this "10 year plan" as a rationalization for things sucking now. Having a payout or WP system that functions beyond the ultimate bare bones isn't some wide eyed fantasy you should be looking forward to months or years after a game releases. This is a critical fundamental mechanic that should have been hammered out long before the game even came out of beta but instead it's been tossed on the back burner just like the aiming/control issues and terrain issues.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 95	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:40:00 - [12] - Quote Arx Ardashir wrote: Mike Poole wrote: Arx Ardashir wrote: Well I don't know what the hell people are talking about with earning 150-200k in a match by AFKing. I just tried it and my team had some squad of 4 that stomped, with KDRs in the 20s, and I got a measly 28k ISK for sitting in the corner scratching my ass. So I'm pretty sure the ISK earned from destroying enemy equipment is scaled according to your rank on the Killboard, meaning it's scaled by WP earned. I earned 0 WP, got 16th place, and 28k ISK for my trouble. I'm sure the stop spot made around 10x that, at least. Try reading a bit for the MANY explanations on how the ISK system works. ISK payouts are dependent on your teams performance, specifically how much financial loss you incur against the opposing team. If your team gets stomped and can't cause any damage you're going to get a low payout no matter if you're afk or fighting head on. The people here saying they're getting 150-200k here for being AFK? They're teams weren't getting stomped and they got to reap the rewards. Bold added for emphasis. Reading comprehension. Try it. Reading comprehension, Try it. Mike Poole wrote: ISK payouts are dependent on your teams performance, specifically how much financial loss you incur against the opposing team. KDR means squat. If those people were repeatedly owning enemies who were using nothing but Militia gear how much of a financial loss do you think was building up? Hell, if they were killing at least 20 people each how long did that match even last? You got a crap payout because it was a quick match against people with crap equipment and nothing more. The people that walk away with 150-200k? They were in matches where financial losses built up and even their meager reward built up.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 95	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:01:00 - [13] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Saying "don't release the game until it's done" totally makes sense to me, except when the game is slated for continuous on going development. Then there is no "done" so waiting on release accomplishes no positive gains. What games like this aren't in continuous on going development? Just because you plan on adding things as you go along doesn't mean you can just half ass something as crucial as the payout/reward system and have everyone suck it up until you feel like releasing something worth playing with. If an MMORPG released and they announced that it was going to take a few months before half of the actions from the battle system were going to actually reward any experience and even the experience rewarded was going to heavily favor the final blow and that solo guy standing in the corner was going to get a share of all the experience and gold you earned... Do you think they would or really should retain their player base?
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 95	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:10:00 - [14] - Quote Lichsmash RN wrote: MAN U-P AND DO FACTION WARFARE YOUR OWN TEAMMATES CAN KILL YOU ORBITAL STRIKES DON'T CARE WHOSE SIDE YOUR OWN Yea... faction warfare... where not only can your teammates kill you but apparently in most cases will kill you just to **** with the results of the game.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 96	Posted - 2013.06.02 01:37:00 - [15] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I think the OP has confused this game with Halo. Losses are supposed to HURT in New Eden. You're not supposed to run around in the shiniest suits all the time in pub matches. It should never be affordable to wear maxed out gear in public matches and die more than once or twice, otherwise there's no point in having different tiers of gear and isk becomes meaningless. Take EVE for example. Many people can fly expensive T3 ships, but will fly cheaper ones for less important ops. You should be nervous about loosing that proto suit, it should cause you pain, if it doesn't then the game has lost it's balance. This is what makes DUST unique and interesting, without painful losses it's just a sub-par shooter. I think You've confused this game with EVE, which seems to be a mistake people make pretty often around here. I haven't played EVE that much but I'd have to wager you don't go through half a dozen ships over the course of 15-30 minutes right? If people wanted to play EVE they would go play EVE. People here seem like they would like to play an fps and actually enjoy it rather than spend the majority of the time swearing because 2 seconds of gunfire a precision strike and a runaway truck just left them in the red and falling back on starter suits so they stop hemorrhaging money.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 97	Posted - 2013.06.02 13:31:00 - [16] - Quote demonkiller 12 wrote: Mike Poole wrote: Osbor robsO wrote: all passive SP would fix this grinding problem instantly also if your suit is THAT expensive, and you lose money on average using it, consider making the suit cheaper? the weapon and dropsuit are by far the most expensive parts of a fit. consider dropping down to an ADV weapon instead of proto? If the point of the game is to grind until you can use the best equipment and then never use it because it's too expensive... there's been a failure in the fundamental mechanics of the game. The thing is you're supposed to be good enough to keep the gear by the time you can use it. That would only be true in a game where your advancement toward top end gear was dependent on skill, but it isn't. The only factor that is really at play here is time, as long as you put in X days/weeks/months you can work your way toward being able to use proto gear with as little skill as possible. It's because of how terribly broken the WP system is. The majority of the SP earned isn't earned based on skill but rather simply for existing through the passive accumulation of SP and SP gained for simply being in a match.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 100	Posted - 2013.06.03 19:18:00 - [17] - Quote Darth Threatius wrote: Maybe people shouldn't worry about KDR so much. Are you playing the same game as everyone else? In some games your KDR is just a vanity number but in this game every D you rack up is a monetary loss and every absent K is less money your team is making. This is the one kind of game where your KDR while not numerically important is still economically important.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 100	Posted - 2013.06.03 22:10:00 - [18] - Quote Darth Threatius wrote: LOL, ok ? are you playing the same game as everyone else or reading the same thread? ISK is based off your contribution to the match and the skill level of the opposing team along with the equip. they use. I guess you are saying that ISK is only earned by KDR stats. ISK is not based on the equipment the enemy team uses it's based on the equipment the enemy team loses. i.e. if you're not killing the enemy team you're not building up ISK to be split up at the end. If your team isn't killing anyone it doesn't matter if you build +2000wp hacking objectives and doing logi stuff you're going to get crap for a payout compared to what you would have gotten. This is why the payout system is f'd up, it doesn't matter how well you preform the entirety of your reward is resting on the gear your opponent decides to throw at you and if you're running proto gear and you wipe out 50 militia gear people and die even once you stand a damn good chance of ending up in the red.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 101	Posted - 2013.06.03 22:53:00 - [19] - Quote Darth Threatius wrote: Sooooo if your opponent is running milita gear then you should run milita gear. Shouldn't be any need to use proto right? Stop trying to be a smart ass, you're doing a **** poor job of it. People that put enough time into the game to be able to afford/equip proto gear don't do it so they can look at how pretty it looks in the menu and play every game in militia gear. If you're going up against a team that's +90% militia gear that doesn't mean you should be forced into playing in militia gear.
Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 118	Posted - 2013.06.04 18:52:00 - [20] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: All of the things you're talking about are what Planetary Conquest is designed for. That's the place where you wear your best gear, because your corp will own planets that generate lots of ISK which will help fund the cost of your high-end suits. Instant battles are meant to be fought in cheaper gear, and accessible to people just out of the academy. Watch the Planetary Conquest Fanfest talk to help you understand it. And everyone that isn't in a big corporation or didn't rush to grab districts and can't actively participate in the deeper Planetary Conquest bits is supposed to sit on their thumb and deal with running inferior fits or falling into the red after games no matter their performance?

Mike Poole Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 119	Posted - 2013.06.04 19:57:00 - [21] - Quote Seras Vikutoria wrote: There is no such thing as "a fair fight" or "an unfair fight". There's only "a fight". Circumstances are irrelevant. No such thing as "an unfair fight"? In a game where at any moment the finger of god can be called down to wipe out an entire squad without touching friendly targets? Or where you have redline snipers/tanks taking potshots over hills at people that can't even attempt to counter them?