So you want to use proto gear and face no risk of loosing money? Im sorry, the game is not intended to work that way, proto gear is too cheap as it is. If you can't afford it, just switch to the god damned ADV gear, its not that bad.

If the point of the game is to grind until you can use the best equipment and then never use it because it's too expensive... there's been a failure in the fundamental mechanics of the game.

I may not be an expert on the topic, but here's a hint: Prototype gear is for use in planetary conquest. In public matches it's just for vanity.

Beeing responsible for your own money is part of the game. Proto gear is supposed to be used in amatches that you can't afford to loose.

You want maximum performance all the time? Goddam pay for it.

This is why I don't understand busting out proto gear in pub matches. don't run what you can't afford to lose.

there needs to be some balance in this game so someone with <2 million SP can compete with someone that has >10million SP in pub matches. If people are just running proto 100% of the time then there is an imbalance to the pub matches, which is bad for Dust.

Use throw away gear for throw away matches. Use serious gear in serious matches. It's a rather simple concept.

as for tankers going 40-1 and still losing money, I'll give this bit of advice - if your corp won't finance your tank, find a corp that will. I don't think HAVs were meant for the lonewolf, at least not until we get a contract system up and running where the ISK payout from the contract will pay for whatever tank

Destroyed value is put into a pool and divided to all mercs according to playtime and wp i believe. That's why you didn't get millions of isk.

Again, the payout system is not designed to care for our expenses. It evaluates the damage done, the outcome and ones general contribution towards that outcome. How expensive this contribution has been for any merc is only ones own problem.

Sounds harsh. Is harsh. Works as intended.

also, be thankful proto is as powerful as it is
in EVE, the more expensive ships often make you MORE vulnerable, since people KNOW you're using expensive stuff and want to make you cry.

also in eve there's very rarely a clear-cut "better" ship, since they occupy different classes and it's difficult for a frigate to take on a battleship, and the battleship's guns cannot really track a fast moving frigate ect.

Don't take this the wrong way but OP is a moron, proto gear isn't supposed to be cheap it's not something you should be running around with on a daily basis it's something you should only be using when the battle is really important like say a PC match where the outcome could effect your entire corporation. You shouldn't be fielding proto gear in every match the fact that it's expensive also serves to keep Proto gear out of say your average skirmish so noobs don't get utterly crushed without having any chance.

I run pub matches in a 30k Adv medium frame suit, do perfectly fine in it, have fun, kill protos, and always make a profit.

If pubstomping in a proto suit isn't working out for you, maybe you should change what you're doing?

None but most of those people only log in to change skills. The people who have reached that tier have been at EVE since beta and have most likely done everything the game has to offer. Further more your comparison is inaccurate. Grinding for proto gear is more akin to a solo miner mining 15 hours a day in a venture to save for a Mackinaw. Funny thing is once he has it, he'll likely get ganked before he can turn a profit. The same idea carries over to proto gear. To solve this problem the miner will settle for the less efficient but significantly cheaper Retriever, and though he might lose it as well he'll have a much better chance at actually making isk. Apply this to dust and you to can make money. You can have your profit or you can have your proto gear, but you can't (or rarely can) have both.

Several people have already explained why the system works that way, there's no reason to explain it again. Maybe you should read the thread. I suggested an alternative that works perfectly fine for pub matches, and you get pissy about it.

Payouts are divided among your entire team, so even if you killed an entire proto squad, as long as you lost several proto suits you are going to take a loss. If you can run proto suits in pub matches all day without a care in the world for monetary losses, than ISK ultimately means nothing and the whole risk vs. reward system falls apart. And just to clarify, winning a pointless pub match isn't part of the reward side of the equation, because it accomplishes exactly nothing.

The disagreement is still that some posters don't expect to constantly use proto gear as they see proto as something you pay the money for when/because the situation demands it, and not because it's the best.

I understand STD => ADV => PRO not as a progression like with traditionall progression systems where you expect to go towards the best stuff and stay there, but as the ability to cope with increasingly difficult situations, should i need to.

That's why i don't see the need for new gamemodes that pay, say, twice the ISK for no good reason. We need more things like PC, where using proto is paid by the advantages of keeping districts, so that using proto is a worthwile investment.

Until that i view proto as not worth the price in most cases and i am perfectly fine with it.

I'm not saying this would resolve everything but it seems like PC would be more accessible with more districts open and all these awox exploits closed.

Don't stop arguing - these sort of discussions will help make the game better.

Keep in mind that once the secondary market is released the prices of proto gear will have to change to what people are willing to pay. That alone will change many of your problems with running proto gear, likely making things more feasible to run (a good alliance will have a decent logistics team to supply you) so things will be different in the future.

right now, the less proto gear we have in pub matches the better. this game needs more game modes to separate the players into the different strata so we don't have bittervets proto pubstomping newbies with no reprisal.

The thing is, proto gear was never intended to be ran 24/7

Get Districts in Molden Heath. Conquest battles pay out over 1 million regularly.

this is exactly the reason we need a timer on the mmc that kicks you out if your not going to play get out of the fing match

R u serious? 14-5 is avarage at best.

I go 14-5 against protos with BPO fits and still don't consider that to be a good result

if you cant go at least 25-3 with proto, you should loose money.

R u serious? 14-5 is avarage at best.

I go 14-5 against protos with BPO fits and still don't consider that to be a good result

if you cant go at least 25-3 with proto, you should loose money.

I run STD dropsuits and consistently end up in the top five. I'm playing well and making a profit for my performace. I could probably end up in the top position every game if I ran proto level gear, BUT i don't need proto gear to end up near the top.

Why should you be rewarded more because you need proto gear to be the best?

However, I agree that something needs to be done about AFK farming. I've done it occasionally. But it is a huge blight on the game. And warpoints obtained should not be the only metric. Plenty of players attempt to gain WP, but are out played or out geared. Attempting to obtain WP (and actually participating in the game) should be enough to earn a decent payout. Actually obtaining WPs should net you more payout, but never enough to sustain the continued and repeated loss of Proto gear.

Too bad about everyone talking proto this and that, because I think your point about the WP system seems to make some sense. Probably, some tweaks to the WP system could mean a fixGÇöor at least a step toward itGÇöfor the Academy transition and a good place to start fixing matchmaking in public games. Right?

No one forces you. It's just stupidly inefficient not to use MLT or STD gear.

I think the payouts should be based right on WP's. After all you earn warpoints with both taking objectivs destroying buildings and killing players so if the system was balanced on how much kills and building destruction is worth than payouts based on war points would be very fair.
I would take out getting any payment based on time in the map. If your not contributing and have 0 WP you should get 0 reward. This would make afk camping pointless.
As far as gear goes honestly with better gear and more gameplay you should be able to contribute more to your team with more kills or hacks or something so better gear really should equate to better payouts when payout is based on WP.

For the post based on making proto gear affordable. It takes more than isk to get into proto gear and if you suck even if payouts are increased crappy players still wont be able to afford proto gear for long.

There are better ways to eliminate the AFK problem than radically altering the payout table to base it nearly entirely on WP. The problem is you're going to chase away all of the new players just out of the battle academy. You can detect if they ever leave the MCC, how much damage they do to other players (even if they don't get a kill or kill assist), how much time are they spending within X meters of an objective, how many times have they died? etc. These metrics will look very different for someone going AFK and a guy with crap gear just starting out getting stomped by guys wearing the most expensive suits in pub matches. People going AFK should get booted from the match and receive 0 ISK, people struggling to get started while getting pubstomped should still get a decent payout even if they have very low WPs.

The bar to get into Proto gear is actually very low when you see this game 10+ years out. If it ever gets to the point where more than the absolute badasses can make a profit wearing proto in the open matches then the game will be broken and need to be re-balanaced.

Adding another voice to the "Fix Payouts" chorus.

Even as a new player I can see the payouts are jacked up.

Yes, because their playstile doesn't involve significant risk if they don't want it to. New Eden and all...

First: Dust is supposed to be an MMOFPS grinding game and CCP wanted it to have a steep learning curve.
If you don't want to farm SP you can play any other FPS game and have fun.

Second and Last: Now that DUST is part of New Eden some rules/behaviours from EVE ONLINE have been applied to this game (Awoxing etc)

I will list some of them below.Replace words like "Fly" or "Ship" to dropsuits/fitiings(You get the point)

• Never fly something (or with something in the cargo) you can't afford to lose. Yes, not even in highsec.


• Scamming and unethical behaviour some would consider griefing is not only allowed, it is encouraged and rewarded by the game mechanics.


• If you lose stuff, it's almost always your fault. Really, only yours.


• There is no such thing as "a fair fight" or "an unfair fight". There's only "a fight". Circumstances are irrelevant.


• Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.


• Just because you can fly something doesn't mean you should.

The one thing I got from those who want Payouts increased for using Proto was that "I'm using Proto to pub stomp new players, so I need to get paid more so I can scare more New Clientele away"
Here's my Pay scale for Gear tiers,

Militia- New Player Usage, Slightly more Wimpy Standard gear
Standard- Use for when Insta-Battling, Really Unimportant PC/FW/ Contract
Advanced- Use for FW/Contracts, Standard Level of importance PC
Prototype- Use for Only Key PC battles

As many People have said, Proto is NOT for Instant Battle. It is for battles you cant afford to lose.

Adjusting Payout for Vehicale Usage could be done, as their Standard un-fitted loadouts cost more then a Fully fitted Proto Dropsuit

i think proto is exactly where it should be in cost/power. because you CAN reach it, but to always use will kill your wallet, no ifs, ands, or buts. honestly i would NEVER risk one of my proto suits in a pub match, because it would make me a bigger target than a Madrugar in the middle of a compound. i HUNT proto users in pubs, with my adv gear, because i want them to learn not to waste so much isk to try and pubstomp.

besides, if they made those Public fights so damned profitable, then there would be no useful FW in the future, and nobody would give a rat's ass about PC

Im confused with all the 14-2, 38-1, 50-4, KDR's being thrown around here. is this a KDR game or a "team" game in which your 14-2 self really means squat if your corp, clan, pals loose the match anyway.

To often I see this in all game modes. There is always that one guy at the top of the loosing teams board who is sitting pretty with his KDR but his squads W/L ratio is crap bwahaha.

I agree though that for how much things cost payout is crap. Im a logi so I die way more than I kill. Hmm.

If I am providing assistance to my squad and get 1500 WP I should be paid more than the 14-2 guy who just played for kills and did nothing but. Just saying. Roles should also effect your payout. ( thanks to the qqers now I get nothing for repairing vehicles, installations, etc, only soldiers, putting me further in the line of fire defenseless).

Big payout:
Anti armor guys! Try it, build a cheapo anti armor suit.

Go to pub match:
Blow up anything that moves, turrets, supply depots, etc. Sure your KDR will suffer if your no good with the sidearm your choose but your will see massive ISK payouts!

( Maybe I shouldn't have shared that, I can feel the nerf hammer)