I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous.

Punished for poor economic sense. Protosuits aren't meant to be sustainable, dying at all will slow down your ISK growth rate.

name one game where you get 10 kills and lose money.

name one game where you get 10 kills and lose money.

Maybe spend some more on higher-end modules or something... that might help.

Dust 514. But only with idiots dumb enought to run proto every game.

name one game where you get 10 kills and lose money.

I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous.

name one game where you get 10 kills and lose money.

name one game where you get 10 kills and lose money.

I don't know if OP is serious or just trolling, but this is funny.
Don't use what you can't afford to lose.

I'm guessing trolling ... op has been playing dust for a good while so he must know how things work ... and also I wish to believe our gene pool hasn't sunk that low yet.

Earning ISK in ambush is much more easy. Since the matches are usually short, the game takes the amounts of WP and Kills you have made and focuses it on ISK, or thats how I think it works.

If you run around with the Millitia AR, you can easily take down scouts, bad-fitted logistics, weak heavies, and other normal assaults, thats how it woks with MAR + Farming.

name one game where you get 10 kills and lose money.

eve.

I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous.


EDIT: I forgot this major point, they get 500 WP 10-1 and get about 200k ISK I get 30 kills and 3 deaths with 1500+ WP and only get 400k ISK. that's the real issue. the game feeds noobs.

the game feeds noobs.

They are pub matches and are not meant for you. Or at least not meant for you to play in proto gear.

Actually i think it is pretty well designed from a game standpoint.

You cannot get rich farming Barrens in World of Warcraft and you can't get rich messing around in the Eve starter areas. This is pretty basic MMO design. Why should Dust be any different?

Ignoring the fact that you act handle your money, how is this a problem? Aggression should be unpunishable?

Bro, I dont know why you are whining about your bad economy, that you cant sustain proto suits even if you kill 3000 mercs in the process, blah blah blah.

But no matter what, the ISK will be partially always the same. Today I won a match with 2500 WP and got exactly 300.000 ISK.
If you cant farm ISK with MAR its because you dont want to or because you need a duvolle on your hands to do work.

Economy is fine. This post its like seeing somebody cry about being unable to restock 4 tanks at the same time.

I do the same thing as everyone else only at a quicker pace, why should I be punished for being quick?

I can sustain proto-suits first of all. I end up with like a 7-15 k/d running a 2k suit in skirmish. I can do work without gear ;D

Why shouldn't you? You're dying more, get better at the game.

THEN WHAT IS THE FREAKING SENSE OF THIS WHOLE POST FFS!

Because it's unfair that I do proportionally the same thing, but make less money.

I don't know if OP is serious or just trolling

I get more kills and warpoints. that's why.

I don't see how those two things are relevant. If you can't make ISK with your dropsuit loadout, you need to either tweek the suit or change your gameplay.

Believe me when I say that the following isn't meant as an insult: This isn't Call of Duty, blindly charging forward to pad your KDR isn't the default way to play. As you've pointed out, your teammates have figured out how to improve, follow their lead and get better at THIS game rather than playing it like a different game and expecting the results you get in that other game. Slow down and think more about your ISK.

Dust 514. But only with idiots dumb enought to run proto every game.

YOU seem to not understand, I do the EXACT same thing as them, kill the same people, same K/D same WP but I get rewarded proportionally LESS money, what they're doing fits them, that's cool, I want to do me.

His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive.

His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive.

His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive.

But this does not appear to be backed up with any factual information.

The metrics by which you determine "performance" will change whether or not the rewards are proportioned properly. When wearing expensive gear, one important performance metric is NOT DYING, assuming you are concerned about your ISK.

Welcome to new Eden... see if you can keep a 10.5 k/d using a type-II or better yet fill out a BPO Raven Type-1 Suit.

******* finally someone gets it. thanks noc.

Why are they rewarded 150k for getting 100 WP while I'm rewarded 250k for getting 1.5k wp?

His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive.

They are proportional to his performance, he died in a protosuit, he lost money. If he had died in a militia suit he would have lost less money.

He's complaining that he isn't gaining ISK at a fast enough rate, dying less would increase that rate.

Almighty gets 32 kills and earns 500 K ISK for that match, he also died once.
Random gets 30 kills and earns 400 K ISk, he didn't die.

Almighty got more ISK, but he now has to replace his 200K fitting, so he really only gained 300K for that match. He knows what he has to do to increase his ISK gain rate, die less, but he's being stupid and instead complaining for no reason.

If I don't have infinitely high KDR ratio for some 5-7 matches in a row I go negative.

Do I cry? No.

almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit.
random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit.

THIS is my problem and also a very real example.

My K/D is not the important thing here.

almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit.
random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit.

THIS is my problem and also a very real example.

almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit.
random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit.

THIS is my problem and also a very real example.

I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous.


EDIT: I forgot this major point, they get 500 WP 10-1 and get about 200k ISK I get 30 kills and 3 deaths with 1500+ WP and only get 400k ISK. that's the real issue. the game feeds noobs.

There is no problem. If you use Militia gear, you obviously have a lower chance of killing anyone above you, but your loses are minimal if you die. If you want to increase the odds of you killing your opponent/surviving longer and making more money, be prepared to pay the price if you die instead. It's just Risk vs Reward.

The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward.

The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward.

Dragonfly with complex shield ext, enhanced armor plate and rep, exile ar, militia locus and guaged nano.

Total cost 22k

Look on proto bears face upon death.... priceless....

The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward.

Don't risk anything you aren't prepared to lose.

And?

That's not the point. To be long term profitable, the increase in reward has to at LEAST match the increase in risk. Simplest example is doubling down. 2x risk, 2x reward. It may be balanced, but is completely counter-intuitive to have infinite run gear not profitable for even a small niche of players.

Why? Who decided running protogear at all times supposed to be long-term profitable?

That's not a very fun reward, especially with how many cheap (read: unavoidable) ways there are to die instantly in DUST.

That's not a very fun reward, especially with how many cheap (read: unavoidable) ways there are to die instantly in DUST.

Then why does prototype gear exist? You are saying it should be always unprofitable for every player?

Prototype gear exists as a high end tool for tanking extra damage, packing on extra modules, etc when you NEED the edge to win big important battles. Why should the END GAME gear be profitable in what basically amount to training battles for new players?

Then don't use proto-gear? I still don't see the problem here. Quite frankly you're starting to sound like someone who's butthurt he died to a RE he didn't see in his proto-suit.

My subs get punished for being aggressive.....

I don't know EXACTLY how well you're doing and how many times you're dying but I certainly agree rewards HEAVILY favor doing poorly in cheap suits.

In my tank I can go 20-0 (in skirmish) with upwards of 1900 points and make 250k. In my Sever logistics I can go 10-3 with 1900 points and make 250k. I can afk in base, go 0-0, and make 100-200k.

Rewards should be increased for increased WP.

I have NO idea what currently decides how much isk you make, but it sure as hell isn't WP.

Okay, what is winning in DUST? More ISK. But we just agreed it is never profitable long term. You have presented a contradiction.

I am glad someone gets what the OP is talking about. The OP is not stroking his own epeen nor is he trying to make things better for his own good. What he is saying is that the current reward system is not based off of performance. Just like sp, it was flatlined to help noobs (read as eve players with no gun game), isk is flatlined to help noobs....we should just all afk because that is the smartest way to earn isk and sp.

I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous.


EDIT: I forgot this major point, they get 500 WP 10-1 and get about 200k ISK I get 30 kills and 3 deaths with 1500+ WP and only get 400k ISK. that's the real issue. the game feeds noobs.

I am glad someone gets what the OP is talking about. The OP is not stroking his own epeen nor is he trying to make things better for his own good. What he is saying is that the current reward system is not based off of performance. Just like sp, it was flatlined to help noobs (read as eve players with no gun game), isk is flatlined to help noobs....we should just all afk because that is the smartest way to earn isk and sp.

We agreed on no such thing. It's rarely profitable IN HIGH SEC INSTANT BATTLE TRAINING MATCHES.

So you believe prototype gear is designed around PC? Where isk efficiency is even MORE important? 8M/day split amonst 16 players is 500k each. That's barely above a pub match and doesn't count the extra logistics costs. It doesn't add up anywhere. If the increase in risk is higher than the increase in reward, it is better to reduce your risk and take more chances instead. And that is exactly what we find is effective in DUST. It is pointed out as a problem because that devalues the investment in suits and reduces variety in fits.

And what is the 8 mil ISK number you are quoting me?

Your extreme ignorance is showing. We are talking economics here. Your contribution of HTFU is useless, and furthermore applied at the wrong person.

Gear costs money. Use expensive gear and die, make less money. A player needs to be able to look at the payout available for a particular match and figure out how much ISK to risk in the battle. Don't bring a suit into a training match that costs more than you'll make for winning the match, and then act surprised when you end up ISK negative. Sure cost/reward doesn't scale on a 1:1 basis, but no one is making any compelling arguments for why it SHOULD beyond "I want to use prototype gear all the time, even in high sec space against noobs learning to play the game".

It's funny that my quote can be in there and you can still say what you say.

In my tank, 800k isk currently, I can keep it alive long enough to make a decent profit on it. usually about 8 games per tank now.

So in a game where I don't lose a tank (which is most games), I make about 250k. Unless its one of those random games where I actually make good money for no real reason I can discern.

So, dying ZERO times with good/great WP, I can make 250k.

Or I could, and stay with me now, idle in the base for the same god damn isk. It has nothing to do with how much I spend in isk per match, it has to do with there's not a good enough way to increase isk per match to warrant not AFKing for money.

SSC

It's funny that my quote can be in there and you can still say what you say.

In my tank, 800k isk currently, I can keep it alive long enough to make a decent profit on it. usually about 8 games per tank now.

So in a game where I don't lose a tank (which is most games), I make about 250k. Unless its one of those random games where I actually make good money for no real reason I can discern.

So, dying ZERO times with good/great WP, I can make 250k.

Or I could, and stay with me now, idle in the base for the same god damn isk. It has nothing to do with how much I spend in isk per match, it has to do with there's not a good enough way to increase isk per match to warrant not AFKing for money.

Again, this is basing all calculations off of pubstomping in high sec instant battles. If instant battles are where players who have access to proto gear are hanging out, this game is ****** before it gets started and your AFK concerns are the least of our worries.

That's not the point. To be long term profitable, the increase in reward has to at LEAST match the increase in risk. Simplest example is doubling down. 2x risk, 2x reward. It may be balanced, but is completely counter-intuitive to have infinite run gear not profitable for even a small niche of players.

You brought that tank to WIN, to SP farm, and/or maybe patch up your KDR, not to gain ISK.

Amen, I only aim to please

Always good to remember that it-¦s not only at scenes that we meet =)

Okay, what is winning in DUST? More ISK.

>Make a stupid argument.
>get called out on it.
>change subject.


As expected from your corp.

It has nothing to do with how expensive your fit is. It has EVERYTHING to do with there is no reward for playing well. There's actually more reward for not playing at all.

OH WOW THIS IS A PROBLEM?!

run cheaper gear problem solved.

Exactly. I brought my best fit to WIN. To earn hardcore WP. I didn't die in it. I did fantastic.


If I wanted to make MONEY I should just sit afk in the MCC.


Do you see why this is stupid as hell?

I'm still pretty new, but it's enjoyable. More enjoyable than this thread, that's for sure

Hope you-¦re not a "50 shades of Grey" enthusiast! It would be akin to the forum posters =p

DUST DOESN'T REWARD BASED OFF OF PERFORMANCE. EVERYBODY BASICALLY GETS THE SAME AMOUNT OF ISK+SP PER MATCH.


it's ridiculous at that.

Reread the OP, this isn't the argument.

The OP is arguing that dying more shouldn't COST more.

Running cheaper gear doesn't SOLVE anything. Its just a way around what was obviously flawed about the economics in this build. Having to run cheaper gear to make a profit defeats the purpose of 'leveling up'. It also is not conducive to WINNING the battle which is ALSO supposed to net a profit of some kind is it not?

However, I disagree with the OP that the system is a noob feeder. If the current system was a noob feeder, why do the noobs not stick around? (several reasons)

OP is running Protos and performing well and not making any real ISK. That's not 'leveling up' and makes no sense if the goal is to 'level up' and get better. Personally, I do good, bad, and ugly (not in that order) but I have broke almost even overall.I do pretty decent in WP seeing as how I run AA a lot. I run infantry 99% of the time and found that around the time all/most of my gear was meta level 3, I had to alter a lot of my fits to make any money.

I guess one can argue that if one is breaking even in k/d, then they should break even in ISK. By that logic, the ones going 3-10, 4-8, 9-15, 14-20 will/should operate at a loss. This is whether or not they win or lose once they are using upper-advanced gear.

The way it has been, as the OP said, one can be performing well and not profit without using cheap gear. If that is the way it is supposed to be, where is anyone's, at any level's, incentive to 'level up'?

What's the purpose of leveling up (to maybe try and improve k.d) if one can't afford to fight in the gear that they skilled up in? Now is a situation where one is forced to choose to either run free/cheaper gear until they can skill a good tank, hide with their good tank or good gear constantly, AFK, or play something else.

We will see how the new build changes the economics of ISK and SP. Running cheaper gear is not a solution to the problem. One should never have to run their free/cheap gear unless they are at that SP level or they are true 'starters'. Or unless they of course ran out of good fittings in the fight in which case maybe they don't deserve to profit in that round.

Reread the OP, this isn't the argument.

The OP is arguing that dying more shouldn't COST more.

Too ADD to read, I write my own material of that nature anyways

If the SSC part is deeply rooted and accepted, then the rest is just theory, practice and enthusiasm. =)

I-¦m working on my shibari right now.

No, he's arguing that his rewards should be proportionate to the effort/score/WP he put into it.

I'm not certain on his exact situation because I don't run suits at all, so I changed it to reflect the problem at large.

If you want to make money in Dust, you might as well afk at the MCC. It doesn't matter if I get a great score/WP and don't die once, I don't make any more money.

No, he's arguing that his rewards should be proportionate to the effort/score/WP he put into it.

I'm not certain on his exact situation because I don't run suits at all, so I changed it to reflect the problem at large.

If you want to make money in Dust, you might as well afk at the MCC. It doesn't matter if I get a great score/WP and don't die once, I don't make any more money.

I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous.


EDIT: I forgot this major point, they get 500 WP 10-1 and get about 200k ISK I get 30 kills and 3 deaths with 1500+ WP and only get 400k ISK. that's the real issue. the game feeds noobs.

I've yet to learn anything like that, but I definitely want to, there's just so many fun things you can do Patience I suppose I'm not very social so the meeting people is touch and go at best, but I practice when and where I can lol :p

Take that, thread.

Get to know your local scene, see what-¦s happening around, if there are parties or a good Dungeon/Club. Knowing people improves your range of possibilities options and techniques. Also, have you heard about Fetlife? Worth taking a look at.

I've looked around fetlife but there seems to be like no activity in my area, whenever I do go on and look around. I just haven't seen much activity in general, but maybe I'm looking in the wrong place.

As a side note, this is a good example of why we need a message feature on these forums >_<

OK i just went up against you in and 3 otgher imperfects in an ambush match.

You went 21/2 i went 4/8... =P

I saw you die once and it looks like you break away from your group and ate the cost of your proto gear.

It doesn't "fix" the "unfairness" you are talking about...but maybe you should stay closer to you buddies so you can be revived.

If you can't earn money saving it might help you out.

Exactly. I brought my best fit to WIN. To earn hardcore WP. I didn't die in it. I did fantastic.


If I wanted to make MONEY I should just sit afk in the MCC.


Do you see why this is stupid as hell?

Sure, if you want to make 150,000 ISK, you can afk in high sec instant battles. You're playing for a tiny contract that is there so new players can make a little scratch to buy a couple of skill books before venturing forth into the "real game". You guys are just looking at things backwards. You're arguing FOR being able to make good ISK in the lowest risk area of the game, rather than incentivizing players to move out into the universe and actually participating in the emergent gameplay.

Not at all. Make ISK by using cheap gear to minimize the amount of money lose if you die. Win by using expensive gear to maximize your chances for victory. The gambling only comes in when you want to earn more ISK than you would in your cheap gear, and the solution is to not lose your expensive gear. If you can't earn more ISK than you would by farming in the MCC; use cheap gear or get better. There is no problem here.

So you believe prototype gear is designed around PC? Where isk efficiency is even MORE important? 8M/day split amonst 16 players is 500k each. That's barely above a pub match and doesn't count the extra logistics costs. It doesn't add up anywhere. If the increase in risk is higher than the increase in reward, it is better to reduce your risk and take more chances instead. And that is exactly what we find is effective in DUST. It is pointed out as a problem because that devalues the investment in suits and reduces variety in fits. And yes, punishes certain playstyles, like the aggressive assault.

I'm arguing that there should be a way to make money by performing well.

Come PC, there will be X amount of high pay contracts a day based upon how many places you control.

What do you think I'm going to do after my small corp plays our 1 or 2 games a day to defend our areas?

Am I going to try really hard in instant battles for no reward or am I going to AFK for similar rewards?

I-¦ll send ya a mail after i finish this match.

Everytime i look at the thread title i only see "Hey, if i play big at the stock market, i should totally get rewarded more, and if bad things happen, CCP central bank should bail me out"

Plain stupid.

Ignore my earlier posts where I say I die 0 times in almost all matches?

Its not about how much isk I make vs how much I lose. Its the fact that there's no incentive to even bother PLAYING. No incentive to get a great score. No incentive to field my great gear even if I die ZERO times.

I make similar money afking in the mcc.

Think before you post. READ before you post.

lol this must be a troll. Proto is never supposed to be profitable, in all honesty you will only see them brought up in the most important of matches especially as more skilled players devlope and you start having to hit your cap by playing organized squads in FW and PC.

Furthermore being aggressive does not mean you are running the most expensive suit you can fit, that's called trying to pad the k/d by bruteforcing over players who actually understand how the game economy works. The game would be broken if you could afford to loose more than 2-3 proto suites a match.

Either get good enough to where you never die more than once in any match you play or concede that you have to run more exonomically efficient.

Lastly you can be just as aggressive with a type-II suit as a proto, I have over 400 shields on my type-II its taken down many vk.1's in 1 vs 1 fights.

I'm arguing that there should be a way to make money by performing well.

Come PC, there will be X amount of high pay contracts a day based upon how many places you control.

What do you think I'm going to do after my small corp plays our 1 or 2 games a day to defend our areas?

Am I going to try really hard in instant battles for no reward or am I going to AFK for similar rewards?

Plain stupid.

Ignore my earlier posts where I say I die 0 times in almost all matches?

Its not about how much isk I make vs how much I lose. Its the fact that there's no incentive to even bother PLAYING. No incentive to get a great score. No incentive to field my great gear even if I die ZERO times.

I make similar money afking in the mcc.

Think before you post. READ before you post.

Hey look, someone who actually understands how risk vs reward works in Dust, here, have a +1

Plain stupid.

Ignore my earlier posts where I say I die 0 times in almost all matches?

Its not about how much isk I make vs how much I lose. Its the fact that there's no incentive to even bother PLAYING. No incentive to get a great score. No incentive to field my great gear even if I die ZERO times.

I make similar money afking in the mcc.

Think before you post. READ before you post.

TBF, most of these guys seem to be looking at the game from the perspective of instant battles being the meat and potatoes of the game, and at "proto gear" as the incentive for actually playing the game. I don't think they really yet see the bigger picture of the meta game, and how insignificant high sec instant battles for a couple hundred thousand ISK are likely to be.

I may speak for myself, I may have people who agree with me, but regardless, I think we need to have some important additions to the game: contracts.

We are MERCENARIES. We fight battles for MONEY.

I think, when we join a game, we should see some sort of contract.

50k ISK for simply enlisting in a battle.
another 150k ISK for winning the battle.
Bonuses for specific things that the employer wants out of the match. Do they want all of the railgun emplacements to survive the battle? 40k ISK bonus. Maybe they could have a rate they pay you for depleting the enemy's resources. Each kill will net you a quarter of that suit's cost. Killing a Bolas is worth 50k each.

tldr; I want contracts for our battles that inform us what we're getting paid and how to get bonuses. It'd be an easy addition to the game because they must have SOME system deciding how much we get paid, and some transparency in that system would be nice. People who want to play the system to make money can do so, that's just the free market, and it can be balanced pretty easily.

no you don't make anywhere near as much... you get a max of around 150k isk on a very very long skirmish where I continuously use 'raven' type-1 assaults, with an 'exile' and a 'toxin' with all blue print milita modules and equipment (the suit costs 0 isk) and still carry a 5+ k/d and make 300-400 thousand isk an Ambush which lasts around 10 mins.

AFK is a good way to farm SP however it is very inefficient for farming isk. You would have to run AFK matches well after you capped out just to reach a 2-3 million isk profit per week, which is really just pocket change.

I may speak for myself, I may have people who agree with me, but regardless, I think we need to have some important additions to the game: contracts.

We are MERCENARIES. We fight battles for MONEY.

I think, when we join a game, we should see some sort of contract.

50k ISK for simply enlisting in a battle.
another 150k ISK for winning the battle.
Bonuses for specific things that the employer wants out of the match. Do they want all of the railgun emplacements to survive the battle? 40k ISK bonus. Maybe they could have a rate they pay you for depleting the enemy's resources. Each kill will net you a quarter of that suit's cost. Killing a Bolas is worth 50k each.

tldr; I want contracts for our battles that inform us what we're getting paid and how to get bonuses. It'd be an easy addition to the game because they must have SOME system deciding how much we get paid, and some transparency in that system would be nice. People who want to play the system to make money can do so, that's just the free market, and it can be balanced pretty easily.

I can not believe that this thread is 8 pages long. There was nothing to say after reading the OP.

I don't play ambush that much because I don't run dropsuits I run tanks.

You reminded me and made it even CLEARER that the system is skewed. Running around in free suits getting a crap score is the BEST way to make money. The SECOND best way to make money is to afk. The THIRD best way to make money is to actually try hard, even if its in a free suit.


Trying hard and getting a good score shouldn't be third on that list.

In the game mode designed for new players to make tiny chunks of ISK to get some basic gear, I see absolutely no problem with this scenario. Sure, it can be used by the uber-lazy to afk farm trivial amounts of ISK, but the alternative is making the system even HARDER for brand new players to make some starting cash.

There is ZERO reason to create incentive for experienced players to use END GAME gear against new players in the starting area of the game.

poor as* try hard trying to be good at making isk.
just go afk on the mcc

And we come back round to the problem. After my small corp defends our few areas for the game, I should run around in ambush with bpo suits and go 5-0, (or 1-11, doesn't really matter) or afk in skirmish.

Huehuehue. #1

I don't play ambush that much because I don't run dropsuits I run tanks.

You reminded me and made it even CLEARER that the system is skewed. Running around in free suits getting a crap score is the BEST way to make money. The SECOND best way to make money is to afk. The THIRD best way to make money is to actually try hard, even if its in a free suit.


Trying hard and getting a good score shouldn't be third on that list.

The THIRD best way to make money is to actually try hard, even if its in a free suit.

That's complete BS. The correct order is
1. using proto without dying, and or being reaaly good with less expenive gear
2. doing relativly well in free gear
3. Proto gear without dying more than once, unless you're a heavy
4. getting a ****** score in free gear
5. AFKing
6. using gear that you don't have the skills to run.

When the difference between #5 and #1 is less than 100k in skirmish, I accomplish far more by doing #5 and have no real incentive to do #1.

Do you follow my train of thought now atleast?

And 100k is a completely insignificant amount of money for someone with enough SP and experience to be running proto gear in the first place. So, why the hell would you be stomping around in high sec instant battles anyway?

Why would CCP incentivize using end game gear in the starting noob friendly area? This is why payouts are so low, and winning doesn't matter. It's about farming tiny bits of ISK for new players.

When the difference between #5 and #1 is less than 100k in skirmish, I accomplish far more by doing #5 and have no real incentive to do #1.

Do you follow my train of thought now atleast?

We should have "leet" mode where personal performance has a bigger impact on rewards though. It would give all the "pro" players something to do, and also help reduce pubstomping new guys.

Of course, the rewards for doing poorly should also be extremely low so that "scubs" don't try to take advantage of it.

As far as I can tell, you basically just described FW.

As far as I can tell, you basically just described FW.

As far as I can tell, you basically just described FW.

Pretty sure we were told in IRC that FW rewards are equal to pubs.

I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous.


EDIT: I forgot this major point, they get 500 WP 10-1 and get about 200k ISK I get 30 kills and 3 deaths with 1500+ WP and only get 400k ISK. that's the real issue. the game feeds noobs.

[beers] [CCP]Nullarbor: whats players motivation to do fw then?
[@[CCP]Nullarbor] exactly that, stacking teams
[@[CCP]Nullarbor] and eve ob
[@[CCP]Nullarbor] and to flip FW districts, if you care about such things
[BerenHurin] And what will the losing side get? Does the payout work the same as pub matches. All that the latest blog is clear about is FW gives SP.
[@[CCP]Nullarbor] payout in FW is the same for now
[@[CCP]Nullarbor] if its too tough and no one plays it we may raise the rewards
[BerenHurin] Same as what? Corp battles?
[@[CCP]Nullarbor] offer special loot etc
[@[CCP]Nullarbor] same as instant battle

Found it.



Trimmed for relevant stuff.

Dude did you make this thread because of a game earlier where i killed you 3-5 times when you were rocking proto?

Probably not.

See, you're not that special. He probably gets killed a lot in every match by more skilled players.

I'll say it one final time and maybe you people will see. After my small corp defends our 1 or 2 areas we control in PC, the best way to make money is it afk.


There should be some freaking outlet for making ISK based on performance. I want to earn ISK for having good WP. Nothing more. Nothing less.

name one game where you get 10 kills and lose money.

WP nets you money.
Not K/D.

You should have noticed this by now, OP.
You've been playing way too long to be so dense.

Try doing more, than rushing in proto-blitzing.
Rez a fallen blueberry. Hack some turrets. Leave some nanohives for allies. Be a gunner in someone's tank.

Be a team player, and earn some WP.

WP = Money.

Crush you in game later kthxbai.

Yeah, this is what I don't get about the argument. They say they want to be rewarded for "good performance", but they are basing their metrics of performance on different metrics than those used in the game.

It's like if they were playing a game of chess, and in the middle of the game they pick up your queen and throw it as far as then can, then say

"look how freaking far I just threw that! What do I get for throwing the queen so far?"

When they're told "you don't get awarded in chess for throwing things really far" they argue "but in SHOTPUT throwing things really far is how you win, how come I can't win by throwing things really far in chess? THIS GAME SUCKS I'M NOT BEING REWARDED FOR GOOD PERFORMANCE!"

it's really bizarre and entitled behavior.


Now, I do agree OTOH, that they AFK thing COULD lead to a problem in the future if it becomes a successful way of earning more than 10,000 ISK per minute in other modes. Right now, it seems like a good way to earn ISK, because all we have to play is Instant Battles in High Sec. However, once other incentives are given to go out and actually play other modes designed for end-game level players I suspect 10,000 ISK per minute will look like the colossal time waster that I assume it will be.

Surely people realize that barely making enough ISK in an instant battle to buy a single proto-fit is intentional?

Yeah, this is what I don't get about the argument. They say they want to be rewarded for "good performance", but they are basing their metrics of performance on different metrics than those used in the game.

It's like if they were playing a game of chess, and in the middle of the game they pick up your queen and throw it as far as then can, then say

"look how freaking far I just threw that! What do I get for throwing the queen so far?"

When they're told "you don't get awarded in chess for throwing things really far" they argue "but in SHOTPUT throwing things really far is how you win, how come I can't win by throwing things really far in chess? THIS GAME SUCKS I'M NOT BEING REWARDED FOR GOOD PERFORMANCE!"

it's really bizarre and entitled behavior.


Now, I do agree OTOH, that they AFK thing COULD lead to a problem in the future if it becomes a successful way of earning more than 10,000 ISK per minute in other modes. Right now, it seems like a good way to earn ISK, because all we have to play is Instant Battles in High Sec. However, once other incentives are given to go out and actually play other modes designed for end-game level players I suspect 10,000 ISK per minute will look like the colossal time waster that I assume it will be.

Surely people realize that barely making enough ISK in an instant battle to buy a single proto-fit is intentional?

You already got all the ingredients to the cake, OP. You're just not mixing it right.
Go to a match, and think "what else can I do while Im here to earn some WP?" and you'll be set.

also WP= money is not entirely true, the system is actually tuned against protos as you get isk based on value destroyed.

so if I kill10 proto suits and you kill 30 mlt suits we both get roughly the same isk, this is something a lot of protos don't do right as they avoid high level fights to protect their investment when fighting those suits are more likely to give a better return on investment.

I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous.


EDIT: I forgot this major point, they get 500 WP 10-1 and get about 200k ISK I get 30 kills and 3 deaths with 1500+ WP and only get 400k ISK. that's the real issue. the game feeds noobs.

so if I kill10 proto suits and you kill 30 mlt suits we both get roughly the same isk, this is something a lot of protos don't do right as they avoid high level fights to protect their investment when fighting those suits are more likely to give a better return on investment.

name one game where you get 10 kills and lose money.

I do handle my money very well, nothing I have doesn't get used. I do the same as other people but lose money because I do it at a quicker pace.

OP's post is a great argument for changing K/D to ISK destroyed/ISK lost

I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous.


EDIT: I forgot this major point, they get 500 WP 10-1 and get about 200k ISK I get 30 kills and 3 deaths with 1500+ WP and only get 400k ISK. that's the real issue. the game feeds noobs.

almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit.
random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit.

THIS is my problem and also a very real example.

I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous.


EDIT: I forgot this major point, they get 500 WP 10-1 and get about 200k ISK I get 30 kills and 3 deaths with 1500+ WP and only get 400k ISK. that's the real issue. the game feeds noobs.

AFK farm almighty AFK farm.

OH WOW THIS IS A PROBLEM?!

run cheaper gear problem solved.

almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit.
random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit.

THIS is my problem and also a very real example.