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Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
33
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Posted - 2013.04.28 02:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ignoring the fact that you act handle your money, how is this a problem? Aggression should be unpunishable? |
Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
34
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Posted - 2013.04.28 03:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
If you're doing the same thing in a proto suit compared to someone in a standard suit, then you should make less money then them. |
Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
36
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Posted - 2013.04.28 04:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive. They are proportional to his performance, he died in a protosuit, he lost money. If he had died in a militia suit he would have lost less money. He's complaining that he isn't gaining ISK at a fast enough rate, dying less would increase that rate. Almighty gets 32 kills and earns 500 K ISK for that match, he also died once. Random gets 30 kills and earns 400 K ISk, he didn't die. Almighty got more ISK, but he now has to replace his 200K fitting, so he really only gained 300K for that match. He knows what he has to do to increase his ISK gain rate, die less, but he's being stupid and instead complaining for no reason. almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit. random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit. THIS is my problem and also a very real example.
There is no problem. If you use Militia gear, you obviously have a lower chance of killing anyone above you, but your loses are minimal if you die. If you want to increase the odds of you killing your opponent/surviving longer and making more money, be prepared to pay the price if you die instead. It's just Risk vs Reward. |
Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:Justin Tymes wrote:ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive. They are proportional to his performance, he died in a protosuit, he lost money. If he had died in a militia suit he would have lost less money. He's complaining that he isn't gaining ISK at a fast enough rate, dying less would increase that rate. Almighty gets 32 kills and earns 500 K ISK for that match, he also died once. Random gets 30 kills and earns 400 K ISk, he didn't die. Almighty got more ISK, but he now has to replace his 200K fitting, so he really only gained 300K for that match. He knows what he has to do to increase his ISK gain rate, die less, but he's being stupid and instead complaining for no reason. almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit. random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit. THIS is my problem and also a very real example. There is no problem. If you use Militia gear, you obviously have a lower chance of killing anyone above you, but your loses are minimal if you die. If you want to increase the odds of you killing your opponent/surviving longer and making more money, be prepared to pay the price if you die instead. It's just Risk vs Reward. The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward.
Same as gambling, but people do it anyway. There is no problem, just don't die and you earn more. Simple. |
Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:That's not a very fun reward, especially with how many cheap (read: unavoidable) ways there are to die instantly in DUST.
Then don't use proto-gear? I still don't see the problem here. Quite frankly you're starting to sound like someone who's butthurt he died to a RE he didn't see in his proto-suit. |
Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:Justin Tymes wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:That's not a very fun reward, especially with how many cheap (read: unavoidable) ways there are to die instantly in DUST. Then don't use proto-gear? I still don't see the problem here. Quite frankly you're starting to sound like someone who's butthurt he died to a RE he didn't see in his proto-suit. Your extreme ignorance is showing. We are talking economics here. Your contribution of HTFU is useless, and furthermore applied at the wrong person.
Don't die in cheap gear = gain ISK Don't die in proto gear = gain more ISK Die in cheap gear = lose ISK Die in proto gear = lose more ISK
You're gambling every time you use more expensive gear than Militia gear in order to raise your chances of gaining more ISK. There is no problem here; the risk doesn't have to match the reward, in fact, it shouldn't in this game. There would be no reason to use anything less than advanced gear. |
Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
42
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Posted - 2013.04.28 05:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Baal Roo wrote:William HBonney wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:I don't know EXACTLY how well you're doing and how many times you're dying but I certainly agree rewards HEAVILY favor doing poorly in cheap suits.
In my tank I can go 20-0 (in skirmish) with upwards of 1900 points and make 250k. In my Sever logistics I can go 10-3 with 1900 points and make 250k. I can afk in base, go 0-0, and make 100-200k.
Rewards should be increased for increased WP.
I have NO idea what currently decides how much isk you make, but it sure as hell isn't WP. I am glad someone gets what the OP is talking about. The OP is not stroking his own epeen nor is he trying to make things better for his own good. What he is saying is that the current reward system is not based off of performance. Just like sp, it was flatlined to help noobs (read as eve players with no gun game), isk is flatlined to help noobs....we should just all afk because that is the smartest way to earn isk and sp. Gear costs money. Use expensive gear and die, make less money. A player needs to be able to look at the payout available for a particular match and figure out how much ISK to risk in the battle. Don't bring a suit into a training match that costs more than you'll make for winning the match, and then act surprised when you end up ISK negative. Sure cost/reward doesn't scale on a 1:1 basis, but no one is making any compelling arguments for why it SHOULD beyond "I want to use prototype gear all the time, even in high sec space against noobs learning to play the game". It's funny that my quote can be in there and you can still say what you say. In my tank, 800k isk currently, I can keep it alive long enough to make a decent profit on it. usually about 8 games per tank now. So in a game where I don't lose a tank (which is most games), I make about 250k. Unless its one of those random games where I actually make good money for no real reason I can discern. So, dying ZERO times with good/great WP, I can make 250k. Or I could, and stay with me now, idle in the base for the same god damn isk. It has nothing to do with how much I spend in isk per match, it has to do with there's not a good enough way to increase isk per match to warrant not AFKing for money.
You brought that tank to WIN, to SP farm, and/or maybe patch up your KDR, not to gain ISK. |
Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 05:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Justin Tymes wrote: You brought that tank to WIN, to SP farm, and/or maybe patch up your KDR, not to gain ISK.
Exactly. I brought my best fit to WIN. To earn hardcore WP. I didn't die in it. I did fantastic. If I wanted to make MONEY I should just sit afk in the MCC. Do you see why this is stupid as hell?
Not at all. Make ISK by using cheap gear to minimize the amount of money lose if you die. Win by using expensive gear to maximize your chances for victory. The gambling only comes in when you want to earn more ISK than you would in your cheap gear, and the solution is to not lose your expensive gear. If you can't earn more ISK than you would by farming in the MCC; use cheap gear or get better. There is no problem here. |
Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 06:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Justin Tymes wrote:
Not at all. Make ISK by using cheap gear to minimize the amount of money lose if you die. Win by using expensive gear to maximize your chances for victory. The gambling only comes in when you want to earn more ISK than you would in your cheap gear, and the solution is to not lose your expensive gear. If you can't earn more ISK than you would by farming in the MCC; use cheap gear or get better. There is no problem here.
Plain stupid. Ignore my earlier posts where I say I die 0 times in almost all matches? Its not about how much isk I make vs how much I lose. Its the fact that there's no incentive to even bother PLAYING. No incentive to get a great score. No incentive to field my great gear even if I die ZERO times. I make similar money afking in the mcc. Think before you post. READ before you post.
First of all, you gain the ability to do more than someone else when you use expensive gear. If you die 0 times, you will always profit more, unless you're doing the exact same thing in cheaper gear. And if that's the case, you shouldn't be using expensive gear. If you join the battle to gain ISK, you obviously won't use expensive gear. If you join the battle to win, ISK is not a problem. If your definition of winning is just gaining ISK in this game, then you're mistaken, ISK is only something that's needed to buy gear that will maximize your chances to win.
Honestly if you're using expensive gear to earn ISK, and you can't earn more than 250k factoring in your deaths, you have no reason to be using expensive gear. |
Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
52
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 00:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:Baal Roo wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Why should two players with equal KDR and Warpoints/Death ratio receive *significantly* different margins? It's just like MCC AFKing, the reward for showing up is dwarfing the reward for doing well. Because they are using significantly different gear. The reward for "showing up" is "dwarfing" the reward for "doing well" because the reward itself is teeny tiny... Because we're beta testing in the new player starting area. In new player areas it's not uncommon for everyone to get a reward for participation, that's how you help new players get their feet under them. The only mistake being made, is taking gear worth as much as the battle rewards into the fight in the first place, and then expecting to make a profit. If we get into faction warfare and the payouts aren't considerably higher, and the winners don't get the majority of the winnings... THEN I will agree that there's a problem. Assuming most winnings go to the team that WINS in FW, going AFK will put your team at a big disadvantage and make them much less likely to win, thus minimizing the sort of gains that can be made by AFKing in the first place. Heck, if a player loses enough in FW he might even have to slink back to instant battles with his tail between his legs for awhile, throw on some militia fits, and pull in some participation ISK until he has enough to head back out and take another shot at a real match again. But instant battles are working precisely as intended as far as I can tell and need absolutely no changes made to them. You barely make enough in an instant battle to buy a set of protogear for a reason, the new player area isn't FOR protogear. I believe you are missing the entire point of this thread. Using the EXACT same fit, a player who does 1/3 of everything (deaths, WP, kills, etc, EVERYTHING identical by a factor of 1/3) makes ISK, while the "aggressive" player who does everything the same but three times as much loses a significant sum. It has nothing to do with the value of an individual suit, and everything to do with the rewards being disassociated from performance.
Obviously the person who did 1/3 the work died less. Don't die = make more money. Someone going 5/3 is pretty much always going to be better than someone going 15/9 anyway in my book, why are you costing your team 9 clones? |
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