I do the same thing as everyone else only at a quicker pace, why should I be punished for being quick?

I get more kills and warpoints. that's why.

YOU seem to not understand, I do the EXACT same thing as them, kill the same people, same K/D same WP but I get rewarded proportionally LESS money, what they're doing fits them, that's cool, I want to do me.

His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive.

******* finally someone gets it. thanks noc.

Why are they rewarded 150k for getting 100 WP while I'm rewarded 250k for getting 1.5k wp?

almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit.
random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit.

THIS is my problem and also a very real example.

The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward.

That's not the point. To be long term profitable, the increase in reward has to at LEAST match the increase in risk. Simplest example is doubling down. 2x risk, 2x reward. It may be balanced, but is completely counter-intuitive to have infinite run gear not profitable for even a small niche of players.

That's not a very fun reward, especially with how many cheap (read: unavoidable) ways there are to die instantly in DUST.

Then why does prototype gear exist? You are saying it should be always unprofitable for every player?

Okay, what is winning in DUST? More ISK. But we just agreed it is never profitable long term. You have presented a contradiction.

I am glad someone gets what the OP is talking about. The OP is not stroking his own epeen nor is he trying to make things better for his own good. What he is saying is that the current reward system is not based off of performance. Just like sp, it was flatlined to help noobs (read as eve players with no gun game), isk is flatlined to help noobs....we should just all afk because that is the smartest way to earn isk and sp.

So you believe prototype gear is designed around PC? Where isk efficiency is even MORE important? 8M/day split amonst 16 players is 500k each. That's barely above a pub match and doesn't count the extra logistics costs. It doesn't add up anywhere. If the increase in risk is higher than the increase in reward, it is better to reduce your risk and take more chances instead. And that is exactly what we find is effective in DUST. It is pointed out as a problem because that devalues the investment in suits and reduces variety in fits.

It's funny that my quote can be in there and you can still say what you say.

In my tank, 800k isk currently, I can keep it alive long enough to make a decent profit on it. usually about 8 games per tank now.

So in a game where I don't lose a tank (which is most games), I make about 250k. Unless its one of those random games where I actually make good money for no real reason I can discern.

So, dying ZERO times with good/great WP, I can make 250k.

Or I could, and stay with me now, idle in the base for the same god damn isk. It has nothing to do with how much I spend in isk per match, it has to do with there's not a good enough way to increase isk per match to warrant not AFKing for money.

>Make a stupid argument.
>get called out on it.
>change subject.


As expected from your corp.

It has nothing to do with how expensive your fit is. It has EVERYTHING to do with there is no reward for playing well. There's actually more reward for not playing at all.

Exactly. I brought my best fit to WIN. To earn hardcore WP. I didn't die in it. I did fantastic.


If I wanted to make MONEY I should just sit afk in the MCC.


Do you see why this is stupid as hell?

Running cheaper gear doesn't SOLVE anything. Its just a way around what was obviously flawed about the economics in this build. Having to run cheaper gear to make a profit defeats the purpose of 'leveling up'. It also is not conducive to WINNING the battle which is ALSO supposed to net a profit of some kind is it not?

However, I disagree with the OP that the system is a noob feeder. If the current system was a noob feeder, why do the noobs not stick around? (several reasons)

OP is running Protos and performing well and not making any real ISK. That's not 'leveling up' and makes no sense if the goal is to 'level up' and get better. Personally, I do good, bad, and ugly (not in that order) but I have broke almost even overall.I do pretty decent in WP seeing as how I run AA a lot. I run infantry 99% of the time and found that around the time all/most of my gear was meta level 3, I had to alter a lot of my fits to make any money.

I guess one can argue that if one is breaking even in k/d, then they should break even in ISK. By that logic, the ones going 3-10, 4-8, 9-15, 14-20 will/should operate at a loss. This is whether or not they win or lose once they are using upper-advanced gear.

The way it has been, as the OP said, one can be performing well and not profit without using cheap gear. If that is the way it is supposed to be, where is anyone's, at any level's, incentive to 'level up'?

What's the purpose of leveling up (to maybe try and improve k.d) if one can't afford to fight in the gear that they skilled up in? Now is a situation where one is forced to choose to either run free/cheaper gear until they can skill a good tank, hide with their good tank or good gear constantly, AFK, or play something else.

We will see how the new build changes the economics of ISK and SP. Running cheaper gear is not a solution to the problem. One should never have to run their free/cheap gear unless they are at that SP level or they are true 'starters'. Or unless they of course ran out of good fittings in the fight in which case maybe they don't deserve to profit in that round.

No, he's arguing that his rewards should be proportionate to the effort/score/WP he put into it.

I'm not certain on his exact situation because I don't run suits at all, so I changed it to reflect the problem at large.

If you want to make money in Dust, you might as well afk at the MCC. It doesn't matter if I get a great score/WP and don't die once, I don't make any more money.

I'm arguing that there should be a way to make money by performing well.

Come PC, there will be X amount of high pay contracts a day based upon how many places you control.

What do you think I'm going to do after my small corp plays our 1 or 2 games a day to defend our areas?

Am I going to try really hard in instant battles for no reward or am I going to AFK for similar rewards?

Hey look, someone who actually understands how risk vs reward works in Dust, here, have a +1

I don't play ambush that much because I don't run dropsuits I run tanks.

You reminded me and made it even CLEARER that the system is skewed. Running around in free suits getting a crap score is the BEST way to make money. The SECOND best way to make money is to afk. The THIRD best way to make money is to actually try hard, even if its in a free suit.


Trying hard and getting a good score shouldn't be third on that list.

And we come back round to the problem. After my small corp defends our few areas for the game, I should run around in ambush with bpo suits and go 5-0, (or 1-11, doesn't really matter) or afk in skirmish.

Huehuehue. #1

When the difference between #5 and #1 is less than 100k in skirmish, I accomplish far more by doing #5 and have no real incentive to do #1.

Do you follow my train of thought now atleast?

We should have "leet" mode where personal performance has a bigger impact on rewards though. It would give all the "pro" players something to do, and also help reduce pubstomping new guys.

Of course, the rewards for doing poorly should also be extremely low so that "scubs" don't try to take advantage of it.

Pretty sure we were told in IRC that FW rewards are equal to pubs.

Found it.



Trimmed for relevant stuff.

I'll say it one final time and maybe you people will see. After my small corp defends our 1 or 2 areas we control in PC, the best way to make money is it afk.


There should be some freaking outlet for making ISK based on performance. I want to earn ISK for having good WP. Nothing more. Nothing less.

WP nets you money.
Not K/D.

You should have noticed this by now, OP.
You've been playing way too long to be so dense.

Try doing more, than rushing in proto-blitzing.
Rez a fallen blueberry. Hack some turrets. Leave some nanohives for allies. Be a gunner in someone's tank.

Be a team player, and earn some WP.

WP = Money.

Lol. All this guys talking about use cheaper gear or standar gear, have not "development sense". Did you all miss the "MMO" part of the game? It's supose to be a MMO/FPS.

The MMO part is hardly decent. Why do you want to get sp and then spend it if you will use the standar stuff. Where the hell do you see a "lvl 1" making a "decent battle" against a lvl "15/20/50".

Dust514 First Person Shooter/MMO Hybrid without MMO sense.

PD: New content overpower

"THE GAME IS STILL IN BETA" is the worst excuse to argue a bad gameplay. Because there is problemes from the first build that you can see all the time. For example: "hands bug". They don't have a "central idea" because if people start crying about something, they change the whole entire game. People cry about the AR, and they change everything. You are playing in the 50000000000000 DC and you still use iron sights. Really?

Yes, the game still in beta. It will be in beta forever

Why should two players with equal KDR and Warpoints/Death ratio receive *significantly* different margins? It's just like MCC AFKing, the reward for showing up is dwarfing the reward for doing well.

I believe you are missing the entire point of this thread. Using the EXACT same fit, a player who does 1/3 of everything (deaths, WP, kills, etc, EVERYTHING identical by a factor of 1/3) makes ISK, while the "aggressive" player who does everything the same but three times as much loses a significant sum. It has nothing to do with the value of an individual suit, and everything to do with the rewards being disassociated from performance.

Just saying that doing the same actions, in the same fit, the RATE is more important than the performance, because the payment in too heavily skewed towards just attending. Said another way, profit is how many matches you grind, not how well you do. You also can't call it a "beginner area" when it's all we have.