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Noc Tempre
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Posted - 2013.04.28 03:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive. |
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Posted - 2013.04.28 04:16:00 -
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Justin Tymes wrote:ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive. They are proportional to his performance, he died in a protosuit, he lost money. If he had died in a militia suit he would have lost less money. He's complaining that he isn't gaining ISK at a fast enough rate, dying less would increase that rate. Almighty gets 32 kills and earns 500 K ISK for that match, he also died once. Random gets 30 kills and earns 400 K ISk, he didn't die. Almighty got more ISK, but he now has to replace his 200K fitting, so he really only gained 300K for that match. He knows what he has to do to increase his ISK gain rate, die less, but he's being stupid and instead complaining for no reason. almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit. random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit. THIS is my problem and also a very real example. There is no problem. If you use Militia gear, you obviously have a lower chance of killing anyone above you, but your loses are minimal if you die. If you want to increase the odds of you killing your opponent/surviving longer and making more money, be prepared to pay the price if you die instead. It's just Risk vs Reward.
The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward. |
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Posted - 2013.04.28 04:32:00 -
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Sloth9230 wrote:Noc Tempre wrote: The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward.
Don't risk anything you aren't prepared to lose. That's not the point. To be long term profitable, the increase in reward has to at LEAST match the increase in risk. Simplest example is doubling down. 2x risk, 2x reward. It may be balanced, but is completely counter-intuitive to have infinite run gear not profitable for even a small niche of players. |
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Posted - 2013.04.28 04:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
That's not a very fun reward, especially with how many cheap (read: unavoidable) ways there are to die instantly in DUST.
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Posted - 2013.04.28 04:37:00 -
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Baal Roo wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Noc Tempre wrote: The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward.
Don't risk anything you aren't prepared to lose. That's not the point. To be long term profitable, the increase in reward has to at LEAST match the increase in risk. Simplest example is doubling down. 2x risk, 2x reward. It may be balanced, but is completely counter-intuitive to have infinite run gear not profitable for even a small niche of players. Why? Who decided running protogear at all times supposed to be long-term profitable?
Then why does prototype gear exist? You are saying it should be always unprofitable for every player? |
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Posted - 2013.04.28 04:42:00 -
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Baal Rool wrote:
Prototype gear exists as a high end tool for tanking extra damage, packing on extra modules, etc when you NEED the edge to win big important battles. Why should the END GAME gear be profitable in what basically amount to training battles for new players?
Okay, what is winning in DUST? More ISK. But we just agreed it is never profitable long term. You have presented a contradiction. |
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Posted - 2013.04.28 04:44:00 -
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Justin Tymes wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:That's not a very fun reward, especially with how many cheap (read: unavoidable) ways there are to die instantly in DUST. Then don't use proto-gear? I still don't see the problem here. Quite frankly you're starting to sound like someone who's butthurt he died to a RE he didn't see in his proto-suit.
Your extreme ignorance is showing. We are talking economics here. Your contribution of HTFU is useless, and furthermore applied at the wrong person. |
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Posted - 2013.04.28 04:46:00 -
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William HBonney wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:I don't know EXACTLY how well you're doing and how many times you're dying but I certainly agree rewards HEAVILY favor doing poorly in cheap suits.
In my tank I can go 20-0 (in skirmish) with upwards of 1900 points and make 250k. In my Sever logistics I can go 10-3 with 1900 points and make 250k. I can afk in base, go 0-0, and make 100-200k.
Rewards should be increased for increased WP.
I have NO idea what currently decides how much isk you make, but it sure as hell isn't WP. I am glad someone gets what the OP is talking about. The OP is not stroking his own epeen nor is he trying to make things better for his own good. What he is saying is that the current reward system is not based off of performance. Just like sp, it was flatlined to help noobs (read as eve players with no gun game), isk is flatlined to help noobs....we should just all afk because that is the smartest way to earn isk and sp.
In summation - it removes the player investment since they have less agency in the outcome. |
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Posted - 2013.04.28 04:51:00 -
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Baal Roo wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Baal Rool wrote:
Prototype gear exists as a high end tool for tanking extra damage, packing on extra modules, etc when you NEED the edge to win big important battles. Why should the END GAME gear be profitable in what basically amount to training battles for new players?
Okay, what is winning in DUST? More ISK. But we just agreed it is never profitable long term. You have presented a contradiction. We agreed on no such thing. It's rarely profitable IN HIGH SEC INSTANT BATTLE TRAINING MATCHES.
So you believe prototype gear is designed around PC? Where isk efficiency is even MORE important? 8M/day split amonst 16 players is 500k each. That's barely above a pub match and doesn't count the extra logistics costs. It doesn't add up anywhere. If the increase in risk is higher than the increase in reward, it is better to reduce your risk and take more chances instead. And that is exactly what we find is effective in DUST. It is pointed out as a problem because that devalues the investment in suits and reduces variety in fits. And yes, punishes certain playstyles, like the aggressive assault. |
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Posted - 2013.04.28 04:55:00 -
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Baal Roo wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Baal Roo wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Baal Rool wrote:
Prototype gear exists as a high end tool for tanking extra damage, packing on extra modules, etc when you NEED the edge to win big important battles. Why should the END GAME gear be profitable in what basically amount to training battles for new players?
Okay, what is winning in DUST? More ISK. But we just agreed it is never profitable long term. You have presented a contradiction. We agreed on no such thing. It's rarely profitable IN HIGH SEC INSTANT BATTLE TRAINING MATCHES. So you believe prototype gear is designed around PC? Where isk efficiency is even MORE important? 8M/day split amonst 16 players is 500k each. That's barely above a pub match and doesn't count the extra logistics costs. It doesn't add up anywhere. If the increase in risk is higher than the increase in reward, it is better to reduce your risk and take more chances instead. And that is exactly what we find is effective in DUST. It is pointed out as a problem because that devalues the investment in suits and reduces variety in fits. And what is the 8 mil ISK number you are quoting me?
The NPC buy value of the clones generated per day on districts. The final number was subject to change still but will likely be in that ballpark. |
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Posted - 2013.04.29 21:52:00 -
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Reframe the question:
Under what circumstances DOES it make sense to use protogear? |
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Posted - 2013.04.30 15:16:00 -
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Why should two players with equal KDR and Warpoints/Death ratio receive *significantly* different margins? It's just like MCC AFKing, the reward for showing up is dwarfing the reward for doing well. |
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Posted - 2013.04.30 22:25:00 -
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Baal Roo wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Why should two players with equal KDR and Warpoints/Death ratio receive *significantly* different margins? It's just like MCC AFKing, the reward for showing up is dwarfing the reward for doing well. Because they are using significantly different gear. The reward for "showing up" is "dwarfing" the reward for "doing well" because the reward itself is teeny tiny... Because we're beta testing in the new player starting area. In new player areas it's not uncommon for everyone to get a reward for participation, that's how you help new players get their feet under them. The only mistake being made, is taking gear worth as much as the battle rewards into the fight in the first place, and then expecting to make a profit. If we get into faction warfare and the payouts aren't considerably higher, and the winners don't get the majority of the winnings... THEN I will agree that there's a problem. Assuming most winnings go to the team that WINS in FW, going AFK will put your team at a big disadvantage and make them much less likely to win, thus minimizing the sort of gains that can be made by AFKing in the first place. Heck, if a player loses enough in FW he might even have to slink back to instant battles with his tail between his legs for awhile, throw on some militia fits, and pull in some participation ISK until he has enough to head back out and take another shot at a real match again. But instant battles are working precisely as intended as far as I can tell and need absolutely no changes made to them. You barely make enough in an instant battle to buy a set of protogear for a reason, the new player area isn't FOR protogear.
I believe you are missing the entire point of this thread. Using the EXACT same fit, a player who does 1/3 of everything (deaths, WP, kills, etc, EVERYTHING identical by a factor of 1/3) makes ISK, while the "aggressive" player who does everything the same but three times as much loses a significant sum. It has nothing to do with the value of an individual suit, and everything to do with the rewards being disassociated from performance. |
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Posted - 2013.05.01 01:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Baal Roo wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Why should two players with equal KDR and Warpoints/Death ratio receive *significantly* different margins? It's just like MCC AFKing, the reward for showing up is dwarfing the reward for doing well. Because they are using significantly different gear. The reward for "showing up" is "dwarfing" the reward for "doing well" because the reward itself is teeny tiny... Because we're beta testing in the new player starting area. In new player areas it's not uncommon for everyone to get a reward for participation, that's how you help new players get their feet under them. The only mistake being made, is taking gear worth as much as the battle rewards into the fight in the first place, and then expecting to make a profit. If we get into faction warfare and the payouts aren't considerably higher, and the winners don't get the majority of the winnings... THEN I will agree that there's a problem. Assuming most winnings go to the team that WINS in FW, going AFK will put your team at a big disadvantage and make them much less likely to win, thus minimizing the sort of gains that can be made by AFKing in the first place. Heck, if a player loses enough in FW he might even have to slink back to instant battles with his tail between his legs for awhile, throw on some militia fits, and pull in some participation ISK until he has enough to head back out and take another shot at a real match again. But instant battles are working precisely as intended as far as I can tell and need absolutely no changes made to them. You barely make enough in an instant battle to buy a set of protogear for a reason, the new player area isn't FOR protogear. I believe you are missing the entire point of this thread. Using the EXACT same fit, a player who does 1/3 of everything (deaths, WP, kills, etc, EVERYTHING identical by a factor of 1/3) makes ISK, while the "aggressive" player who does everything the same but three times as much loses a significant sum. It has nothing to do with the value of an individual suit, and everything to do with the rewards being disassociated from performance. But again, you're judging the performance on the wrong metrics. The person who dies less, performs better. If you'd like to argue that this performance metric should be changed, then make your case, but so far the argument over which performance metrics to favor have been entirely arbitrary.
Just saying that doing the same actions, in the same fit, the RATE is more important than the performance, because the payment in too heavily skewed towards just attending. Said another way, profit is how many matches you grind, not how well you do. You also can't call it a "beginner area" when it's all we have. |
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