DUST Search - Punished for being aggressive.

Ivan Avogadro wrote:

ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote:

Sloth9230 wrote:

Noc Tempre wrote:

His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive.

They are proportional to his performance, he died in a protosuit, he lost money. If he had died in a militia suit he would have lost less money.

He's complaining that he isn't gaining ISK at a fast enough rate, dying less would increase that rate.

Almighty gets 32 kills and earns 500 K ISK for that match, he also died once.
Random gets 30 kills and earns 400 K ISk, he didn't die.

Almighty got more ISK, but he now has to replace his 200K fitting, so he really only gained 300K for that match. He knows what he has to do to increase his ISK gain rate, die less, but he's being stupid and instead complaining for no reason.

almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit.
random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit.

THIS is my problem and also a very real example.

The reason you got those 32 kills is because you ran proto. You have 3x the EHP, better regen, better damage, probably proto weapons, etc... You pay out the nose for the increased stats to pad your KDR. You don't pay out the nose to get paid back. Make a choice: be thrifty to make money, or be extravagant to put on a show.

And if you come back to say "I could get 32 kills without proto!" then I will preemptively ask "So why aren't you doing it?"

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shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 45	Posted - 2013.04.29 17:19:00 - [211] - Quote Rigor Mordis wrote: No. Why does RPG appear no where on the DUST514 frontpage? You want deny that Dust have also a RPG side?
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 28	Posted - 2013.04.29 17:23:00 - [212] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Rigor Mordis wrote: No. Why does RPG appear no where on the DUST514 frontpage? You want deny that Dust have also a RPG side? If it does? Does that mean it has to have sissy glitches and exploits laden throughout it?
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 712	Posted - 2013.04.29 17:28:00 - [213] - Quote Last time i checked you don't get paid better for getting the same job done with better tools.
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 28	Posted - 2013.04.29 17:41:00 - [214] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: Last time i checked you don't get paid better for getting the same job done with better tools. NSS. Last time I checked nobody is stupid enough to buy better/more expensive tools when they can do the job with rentals. Just as no company is stupid enough to manufacture 'luxury' tools when a good carpenter/builder doesn't really need them. Last time I checked, companies actually BID on jobs knowing the investment that has to be made upfront. Last time I checked, companies issue change-orders when a job requires tools that they don't have or work that is added-on. Just more deck stacking bs that is all going to change. Hopefully for the better, not for the fanboy.
Crazed Capitalist Militaires Sans Jeux 2	Posted - 2013.04.29 17:45:00 - [215] - Quote Rigor Mordis wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Last time i checked you don't get paid better for getting the same job done with better tools. NSS. Last time I checked nobody is stupid enough to buy better/more expensive tools when they can do the job with rentals. Just as no company is stupid enough to manufacture 'luxury' tools when a good carpenter/builder doesn't really need them. Last time I checked, companies actually BID on jobs knowing the investment that has to be made upfront. Last time I checked, companies issue change-orders when a job requires tools that they don't have or work that is added-on. Just more deck stacking bs that is all going to change. Hopefully for the better, not for the fanboy. Yes, and if you are in a match against others who are high ranked and in squads then you may need that equipment. Of course the game will change on the update
Billi Gene The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 133	Posted - 2013.04.29 17:48:00 - [216] - Quote iirc: isk payout is balanced around gear destroyed.... your are killing people running cheap fits you get less isk then if you kill people wearing expensive fits.... in other words your risk is greater then theirs. but then you already should have known this...
BMSTUBBY KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 159	Posted - 2013.04.29 17:53:00 - [217] - Quote ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive. They are proportional to his performance, he died in a protosuit, he lost money. If he had died in a militia suit he would have lost less money. He's complaining that he isn't gaining ISK at a fast enough rate, dying less would increase that rate. Almighty gets 32 kills and earns 500 K ISK for that match, he also died once. Random gets 30 kills and earns 400 K ISk, he didn't die. Almighty got more ISK, but he now has to replace his 200K fitting, so he really only gained 300K for that match. He knows what he has to do to increase his ISK gain rate, die less, but he's being stupid and instead complaining for no reason. almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit. random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit. THIS is my problem and also a very real example. Would you like some Bacon flavored cheese to go along with your wine?
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 28	Posted - 2013.04.29 18:01:00 - [218] - Quote Billi Gene wrote: iirc: isk payout is balanced around gear destroyed.... your are killing people running cheap fits you get less isk then if you kill people wearing expensive fits.... in other words your risk is greater then theirs. but then you already should have known this... How are some people supposed to just know? Its not like it actually explains that anywhere in-game. Hell, one can spend 2-3 months on these forums and never find that information. Then, if they were to ask about in on here they would likely just get a self-righteous reply and bullied around the forums.
Ivan Avogadro Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 129	Posted - 2013.04.29 18:08:00 - [219] - Quote ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive. They are proportional to his performance, he died in a protosuit, he lost money. If he had died in a militia suit he would have lost less money. He's complaining that he isn't gaining ISK at a fast enough rate, dying less would increase that rate. Almighty gets 32 kills and earns 500 K ISK for that match, he also died once. Random gets 30 kills and earns 400 K ISk, he didn't die. Almighty got more ISK, but he now has to replace his 200K fitting, so he really only gained 300K for that match. He knows what he has to do to increase his ISK gain rate, die less, but he's being stupid and instead complaining for no reason. almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit. random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit. THIS is my problem and also a very real example. The reason you got those 32 kills is because you ran proto. You have 3x the EHP, better regen, better damage, probably proto weapons, etc... You pay out the nose for the increased stats to pad your KDR. You don't pay out the nose to get paid back. Make a choice: be thrifty to make money, or be extravagant to put on a show. And if you come back to say "I could get 32 kills without proto!" then I will preemptively ask "So why aren't you doing it?"
crazy space 1 ZionTCD Unclaimed. 1034	Posted - 2013.04.29 18:16:00 - [220] - Quote ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote: I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous. EDIT: I forgot this major point, they get 500 WP 10-1 and get about 200k ISK I get 30 kills and 3 deaths with 1500+ WP and only get 400k ISK. that's the real issue. the game feeds noobs. Sitting in the MCC gives the same isk payout too you know
IRuby Heart DIOS EX. 539	Posted - 2013.04.29 18:24:00 - [221] - Quote Ivan Avogadro wrote: ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive. They are proportional to his performance, he died in a protosuit, he lost money. If he had died in a militia suit he would have lost less money. He's complaining that he isn't gaining ISK at a fast enough rate, dying less would increase that rate. Almighty gets 32 kills and earns 500 K ISK for that match, he also died once. Random gets 30 kills and earns 400 K ISk, he didn't die. Almighty got more ISK, but he now has to replace his 200K fitting, so he really only gained 300K for that match. He knows what he has to do to increase his ISK gain rate, die less, but he's being stupid and instead complaining for no reason. almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit. random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit. THIS is my problem and also a very real example. The reason you got those 32 kills is because you ran proto. You have 3x the EHP, better regen, better damage, probably proto weapons, etc... You pay out the nose for the increased stats to pad your KDR. You don't pay out the nose to get paid back. Make a choice: be thrifty to make money, or be extravagant to put on a show. And if you come back to say "I could get 32 kills without proto!" then I will preemptively ask "So why aren't you doing it?" LOGIC!
SuperKing BigNuts Contract Hunters 21	Posted - 2013.04.29 18:32:00 - [222] - Quote Rigor Mordis wrote: shaman oga wrote: two words:diminishing returns If you want more isk you have to play with a cheaper fit. Choose Isk or KDR, DUST is not only a FPS it's also a RPG. No. Why does RPG appear no where on the DUST514 frontpage? If anything the front page advertises how IMPORTANT dust SUPPOSEDLY will be. And again, like I said earlier in this thread, having to resort to cheaper fits when one is skilled for the good stuff is contradictory to the reasons one should want to ''level up''. Nobody can admit that the economics in this build were plucked. Fanboys can't admit anything's flawed about that pole. resort to cheaper fits is contradictory of a game based on money? in EVE online, one does not simply pvp with t2 battleship simply because they have the skills to fly them... the economics seem legit to me because if i made enough isk to run proto suits all the time without caring, i probably would, and then itd just be everyone in proto everywhere... it would be fair, but only for the high end players whove had the time to grind out the 1.5some odd million sp for proto suits. and there are benefits to leveling up beyond just unlocking gear... look at some your skills and tell me gaining a 2-5% bonus to various attributes isnt enough incentive to dump sp into things? i think the system is fairly balanced as far as people should lose money for losing proto suits in public quick battles, because they dont matter... why are you being such a tryhard in a battle that holds almost no significant impact? and most of the squads i run with, sticking with our primarily advanced or blueprint standard/militia suits, make a special point to tagteam proto suits and vehicles whenever we get the chance to - because we realize we just punched a hole into someones wallet then we and camp their body to ensure they dont get picked up. that sense of being able to 'destroy something beautiful' is part of the appeal of DUST and EVE, that there is more than just a 5 second respawn or a jog back from a graveyard to pick back up right where you left off
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 713	Posted - 2013.04.29 18:36:00 - [223] - Quote Apparently he needs the better gear to get the job at all, otherwise he wouldn't purchase the gear to start. Especially when he's around mostly people who'll be using worse gear. The reason to manufacture luxury tools is when the job has a much lower room for error, these are just pub matches, using better gear in pubs only helps stat padding because at the end of the day those matches don't mean anything. So right now, there isn't a concrete reason why anyone needs to use better gear, it's more of an issue of preferring to ise the golden wrench instead of the standard titanium one, it just makes you look good to most people.
ca ronic Moffit Bros 5	Posted - 2013.04.29 18:40:00 - [224] - Quote Makes perfect sense to me. As you become a better player you will bring out the better gear more often because you are going to lose it less often.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 46	Posted - 2013.04.29 18:46:00 - [225] - Quote Think about tanks, a good tank cost from 600k to over 1.6 million and militia tanks are junk so don't get mad if your proto suit cost 200/300k, a lot of people are playing in potential loss.
syzygiet Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 6	Posted - 2013.04.29 19:23:00 - [226] - Quote Its called diminishing marginal return. Here is a dumb down Graph
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 28	Posted - 2013.04.29 19:30:00 - [227] - Quote Ok fine. We'll see after the launch. As it is now, the only options anyone has are pub matches and contracts. I realize this is about to change. IDK what anyone else has been playing or what neighborhood they have been building in, but the competing builders are using luxury tools ALL OVER the place in the projects. I'm not entirely opposed to what you guys are saying, and I am definitely not opposed to risk v. reward. But look at tanks in pub matches. Heres a builder who who brought in a crane to erect a single-wide trailer....And he's going to walk away with buku chips if he is good at running and hiding(taking smoke breaks) and/or there is no skilled opposition. (not to mention the cheap spawn camp kills) Variety of weapons - great. Depth of the skill system - great. Being rewarded for quality of work done on the job - Great. Not profiting because you invested early on in tools for building foundations while a guy with a crane USUALLY builds nothing and gets paid more for less work - worthless. Bottom line....Mercs need a UNION.
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 28	Posted - 2013.04.29 19:53:00 - [228] - Quote Not to mention, the guy with the crane can pick up illegals and those illegals can siesta in the cab and walk away with one of the best checks from the job. Then tank is commissioned, there another piece of a pie off of a pie that's been half eaten. I realize that in the end of it all that people are working for the SP levels to be all-around or completely versatile. The way this was set up, one had to have 2 characters. An infantry toon to TRY and have fun in what was a grossly imbalanced and BORING love-in/circle jerk, and a vehicle toon to farm cheap SP and make significant ISK. * ISK WHICH THEN IS TRANSFERABLE to the infantry toon as needed. ** For the FPS purists who do not look for routes of exploitation and insurmountable advantages that haven't yet realized some of the RPG weaknesses/exploits about DUST that aren't as obvious as others.
Crash Monster Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 86	Posted - 2013.04.29 19:57:00 - [229] - Quote Hasn't this thread died yet?
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 46	Posted - 2013.04.29 19:59:00 - [230] - Quote Rigor Mordis wrote: An infantry toon to TRY and have fun in what was a grossly imbalanced and BORING love-in/circle jerk, and a vehicle toon to farm cheap SP and make significant ISK. * ISK WHICH THEN IS TRANSFERABLE to the infantry toon as needed. I have two PG and it works exactly the opposite.
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 28	Posted - 2013.04.29 20:33:00 - [231] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Rigor Mordis wrote: An infantry toon to TRY and have fun in what was a grossly imbalanced and BORING love-in/circle jerk, and a vehicle toon to farm cheap SP and make significant ISK. * ISK WHICH THEN IS TRANSFERABLE to the infantry toon as needed. I have two PG and it works exactly the opposite. I figured some did. Shouldn't be that way. Shouldn't have to. Regardless if ISK is paid what's destroyed, a kill is 50 WP. With a hack being only 100 for nulls and 50 for everything else. Right there one doesn't have to be a mathematician to easily see that it ''don't pay'' to actually concern yourself with objectives rather than get an easy check by exploiting weaknesses and harvesting disproportionate numbers. ---30-1, alone in a tank with no other destruction nets 1500 WP. 1-15, 12 hacks on nulls, 5 hacks on other, in a proto CB logi,scout,assault, with no other support or destruction nets 1500 WP. Both mercs win match on MCC destruction. It can be argued that both mercs contributed equally to the win. But, who took the bigger risk(s)? Who actually sees the bigger reward?---- And the forum hasn't died because you keep checking in on it Crash.
Washlee Not Guilty EoN. 142	Posted - 2013.04.29 20:40:00 - [232] - Quote ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote: I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous. EDIT: I forgot this major point, they get 500 WP 10-1 and get about 200k ISK I get 30 kills and 3 deaths with 1500+ WP and only get 400k ISK. that's the real issue. the game feeds noobs. As everyone has said before , Don't use what you can't afford
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 29	Posted - 2013.04.29 21:09:00 - [233] - Quote Washlee wrote: ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote: I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous. EDIT: I forgot this major point, they get 500 WP 10-1 and get about 200k ISK I get 30 kills and 3 deaths with 1500+ WP and only get 400k ISK. that's the real issue. the game feeds noobs. As everyone has said before , Don't use what you can't afford oh It's not don't ''use''. it's don't LOSE what you cant afford. We all see this when we see a tanker running for the hills every time the ish gets deep. Or a dropship that parks and AFKs. Those tactics are contradictory to the claims that this provides an intense warfare experience where victory is achieved through teamwork and tactical strategy IF Victory and ISK profit are supposed to correlate.
Crims0n Viper Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2013.04.29 21:15:00 - [234] - Quote If Anything this thread has helped Almighty realize that he is nothing more than an Average scrub without his pubstomping protogear.
Konohamaru Sarutobi Ahrendee Mercenaries 114	Posted - 2013.04.29 21:38:00 - [235] - Quote Lol. All this guys talking about use cheaper gear or standar gear, have not "development sense". Did you all miss the "MMO" part of the game? It's supose to be a MMO/FPS. The MMO part is hardly decent. Why do you want to get sp and then spend it if you will use the standar stuff. Where the hell do you see a "lvl 1" making a "decent battle" against a lvl "15/20/50". Dust514 First Person Shooter/MMO Hybrid without MMO sense. PD: New content overpower
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1286	Posted - 2013.04.29 21:43:00 - [236] - Quote Konohamaru Sarutobi wrote: Lol. All this guys talking about use cheaper gear or standar gear, have not "development sense". Did you all miss the "MMO" part of the game? It's supose to be a MMO/FPS. The MMO part is hardly decent. Why do you want to get sp and then spend it if you will use the standar stuff. Where the hell do you see a "lvl 1" making a "decent battle" against a lvl "15/20/50". Dust514 First Person Shooter/MMO Hybrid without MMO sense. PD: New content overpower The game is still in beta, and we are all playing in the new player starting area.
Crash Monster Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 86	Posted - 2013.04.29 21:52:00 - [237] - Quote ... have to pass the time while waiting for combat somehow!
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1323	Posted - 2013.04.29 21:52:00 - [238] - Quote Reframe the question: Under what circumstances DOES it make sense to use protogear?
Konohamaru Sarutobi Ahrendee Mercenaries 114	Posted - 2013.04.29 22:11:00 - [239] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Konohamaru Sarutobi wrote: Lol. All this guys talking about use cheaper gear or standar gear, have not "development sense". Did you all miss the "MMO" part of the game? It's supose to be a MMO/FPS. The MMO part is hardly decent. Why do you want to get sp and then spend it if you will use the standar stuff. Where the hell do you see a "lvl 1" making a "decent battle" against a lvl "15/20/50". Dust514 First Person Shooter/MMO Hybrid without MMO sense. PD: New content overpower The game is still in beta, and we are all playing in the new player starting area. "THE GAME IS STILL IN BETA" is the worst excuse to argue a bad gameplay. Because there is problemes from the first build that you can see all the time. For example: "hands bug". They don't have a "central idea" because if people start crying about something, they change the whole entire game. People cry about the AR, and they change everything. You are playing in the 50000000000000 DC and you still use iron sights. Really? Yes, the game still in beta. It will be in beta forever
Crazed Capitalist Militaires Sans Jeux 4	Posted - 2013.04.29 22:39:00 - [240] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Reframe the question: Under what circumstances DOES it make sense to use protogear? I suppose it will be needed after the update.

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