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DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2703
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Posted - 2013.04.28 03:55:00 -
[61] - Quote
My subs get punished for being aggressive.....
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ALM1GHTY STATIUS
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
334
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Posted - 2013.04.28 03:55:00 -
[62] - Quote
Rasatsu wrote:If I don't have infinitely high KDR ratio for some 5-7 matches in a row I go negative.
Do I cry? No.
My K/D is not the important thing here. |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic
1027
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 03:55:00 -
[63] - Quote
ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote:
almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit. random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit.
THIS is my problem and also a very real example.
Again, running Protosuits isn't supposed to be profitable, the fact that you are making profit shows that you're good, just not good enough. If you want to increase your gains, then die less, or use cheaper fits.
Just look at starter fits, I can make 200K and not lose anything. No one ever said the risk vs rewards were supposed to be proportional in this game. |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic
1027
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 03:56:00 -
[64] - Quote
ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote:Rasatsu wrote:If I don't have infinitely high KDR ratio for some 5-7 matches in a row I go negative.
Do I cry? No. My K/D is not the important thing here. It is when you're running expensive fittings. |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1253
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 03:57:00 -
[65] - Quote
ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive. They are proportional to his performance, he died in a protosuit, he lost money. If he had died in a militia suit he would have lost less money. He's complaining that he isn't gaining ISK at a fast enough rate, dying less would increase that rate. Almighty gets 32 kills and earns 500 K ISK for that match, he also died once. Random gets 30 kills and earns 400 K ISk, he didn't die. Almighty got more ISK, but he now has to replace his 200K fitting, so he really only gained 300K for that match. He knows what he has to do to increase his ISK gain rate, die less, but he's being stupid and instead complaining for no reason. almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit. random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit. THIS is my problem and also a very real example.
So, stop using protosuits in instant battles where your prospects to make money is extremely limited. You've identified where you are doing poorly, now fix it. Don't complain that you are losing money when YOU get to choose how much ISK you are putting on the field. If you want to make ISK in instant battles, put militia gear on. It's nonsensical to intentionally risk suits that are 150k+ each in an instant battle, and then complain that you lost money in the match. |
Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:05:00 -
[66] - Quote
ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive. They are proportional to his performance, he died in a protosuit, he lost money. If he had died in a militia suit he would have lost less money. He's complaining that he isn't gaining ISK at a fast enough rate, dying less would increase that rate. Almighty gets 32 kills and earns 500 K ISK for that match, he also died once. Random gets 30 kills and earns 400 K ISk, he didn't die. Almighty got more ISK, but he now has to replace his 200K fitting, so he really only gained 300K for that match. He knows what he has to do to increase his ISK gain rate, die less, but he's being stupid and instead complaining for no reason. almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit. random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit. THIS is my problem and also a very real example.
There is no problem. If you use Militia gear, you obviously have a lower chance of killing anyone above you, but your loses are minimal if you die. If you want to increase the odds of you killing your opponent/surviving longer and making more money, be prepared to pay the price if you die instead. It's just Risk vs Reward. |
hooc roht
Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation
39
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Posted - 2013.04.28 04:13:00 -
[67] - Quote
OK i just went up against you in and 3 otgher imperfects in an ambush match.
You went 21/2 i went 4/8... =P
I saw you die once and it looks like you break away from your group and ate the cost of your proto gear.
It doesn't "fix" the "unfairness" you are talking about...but maybe you should stay closer to you buddies so you can be revived.
If you can't earn money saving it might help you out. |
copy left
The Wanderer Copy Left
98
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:16:00 -
[68] - Quote
ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote:I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous.
EDIT: I forgot this major point, they get 500 WP 10-1 and get about 200k ISK I get 30 kills and 3 deaths with 1500+ WP and only get 400k ISK. that's the real issue. the game feeds noobs.
I get 2400, WP and I can go 28-0 . Not using anything above standard. Whats your point? |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1322
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:16:00 -
[69] - Quote
Justin Tymes wrote:ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive. They are proportional to his performance, he died in a protosuit, he lost money. If he had died in a militia suit he would have lost less money. He's complaining that he isn't gaining ISK at a fast enough rate, dying less would increase that rate. Almighty gets 32 kills and earns 500 K ISK for that match, he also died once. Random gets 30 kills and earns 400 K ISk, he didn't die. Almighty got more ISK, but he now has to replace his 200K fitting, so he really only gained 300K for that match. He knows what he has to do to increase his ISK gain rate, die less, but he's being stupid and instead complaining for no reason. almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit. random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit. THIS is my problem and also a very real example. There is no problem. If you use Militia gear, you obviously have a lower chance of killing anyone above you, but your loses are minimal if you die. If you want to increase the odds of you killing your opponent/surviving longer and making more money, be prepared to pay the price if you die instead. It's just Risk vs Reward.
The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward. |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic
1029
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:24:00 -
[70] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote: The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward.
Don't risk anything you aren't prepared to lose. |
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Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:25:00 -
[71] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:Justin Tymes wrote:ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive. They are proportional to his performance, he died in a protosuit, he lost money. If he had died in a militia suit he would have lost less money. He's complaining that he isn't gaining ISK at a fast enough rate, dying less would increase that rate. Almighty gets 32 kills and earns 500 K ISK for that match, he also died once. Random gets 30 kills and earns 400 K ISk, he didn't die. Almighty got more ISK, but he now has to replace his 200K fitting, so he really only gained 300K for that match. He knows what he has to do to increase his ISK gain rate, die less, but he's being stupid and instead complaining for no reason. almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit. random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit. THIS is my problem and also a very real example. There is no problem. If you use Militia gear, you obviously have a lower chance of killing anyone above you, but your loses are minimal if you die. If you want to increase the odds of you killing your opponent/surviving longer and making more money, be prepared to pay the price if you die instead. It's just Risk vs Reward. The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward.
Same as gambling, but people do it anyway. There is no problem, just don't die and you earn more. Simple. |
Higgs flagrantfool
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
43
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:27:00 -
[72] - Quote
Exsyrup Core wrote:Dragonfly with complex shield ext, enhanced armor plate and rep, exile ar, militia locus and guaged nano.
Total cost 22k
Look on proto bears face upon death.... priceless....
Haha, I run this exact same build, it's an amazing fit. But I like my laser/SMG with two basics plates and compact nano, better. |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1256
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:30:00 -
[73] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:Justin Tymes wrote:ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:His point is that rewards are not proportional to performance. Instead they are flattened by bringing the top down. IRL the curve goes the other direction, which makes this further unintitive. They are proportional to his performance, he died in a protosuit, he lost money. If he had died in a militia suit he would have lost less money. He's complaining that he isn't gaining ISK at a fast enough rate, dying less would increase that rate. Almighty gets 32 kills and earns 500 K ISK for that match, he also died once. Random gets 30 kills and earns 400 K ISk, he didn't die. Almighty got more ISK, but he now has to replace his 200K fitting, so he really only gained 300K for that match. He knows what he has to do to increase his ISK gain rate, die less, but he's being stupid and instead complaining for no reason. almighty gets 32 kills in a game and dies twice. he gets 500k from the match and loses 400k in suits, 100k profit. random gets 3 kills in a game and dies 15 times. he gets 175k isk and loses 15k in suits, 160k profit. THIS is my problem and also a very real example. There is no problem. If you use Militia gear, you obviously have a lower chance of killing anyone above you, but your loses are minimal if you die. If you want to increase the odds of you killing your opponent/surviving longer and making more money, be prepared to pay the price if you die instead. It's just Risk vs Reward. The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward.
And? |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1322
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:32:00 -
[74] - Quote
Sloth9230 wrote:Noc Tempre wrote: The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward.
Don't risk anything you aren't prepared to lose. That's not the point. To be long term profitable, the increase in reward has to at LEAST match the increase in risk. Simplest example is doubling down. 2x risk, 2x reward. It may be balanced, but is completely counter-intuitive to have infinite run gear not profitable for even a small niche of players. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1322
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:35:00 -
[75] - Quote
That's not a very fun reward, especially with how many cheap (read: unavoidable) ways there are to die instantly in DUST.
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Eurydice Itzhak
Militaires Sans Jeux
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:36:00 -
[76] - Quote
I don't know EXACTLY how well you're doing and how many times you're dying but I certainly agree rewards HEAVILY favor doing poorly in cheap suits.
In my tank I can go 20-0 (in skirmish) with upwards of 1900 points and make 250k. In my Sever logistics I can go 10-3 with 1900 points and make 250k. I can afk in base, go 0-0, and make 100-200k.
Rewards should be increased for increased WP.
I have NO idea what currently decides how much isk you make, but it sure as hell isn't WP. |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1256
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:36:00 -
[77] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Noc Tempre wrote: The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward.
Don't risk anything you aren't prepared to lose. That's not the point. To be long term profitable, the increase in reward has to at LEAST match the increase in risk. Simplest example is doubling down. 2x risk, 2x reward. It may be balanced, but is completely counter-intuitive to have infinite run gear not profitable for even a small niche of players.
Why? Who decided running protogear at all times supposed to be long-term profitable? |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1322
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:37:00 -
[78] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Noc Tempre wrote: The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward.
Don't risk anything you aren't prepared to lose. That's not the point. To be long term profitable, the increase in reward has to at LEAST match the increase in risk. Simplest example is doubling down. 2x risk, 2x reward. It may be balanced, but is completely counter-intuitive to have infinite run gear not profitable for even a small niche of players. Why? Who decided running protogear at all times supposed to be long-term profitable?
Then why does prototype gear exist? You are saying it should be always unprofitable for every player? |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1256
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:38:00 -
[79] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:That's not a very fun reward, especially with how many cheap (read: unavoidable) ways there are to die instantly in DUST.
it isn't a reward. The reward for running protogear is having an advantage on the field. Why should people be rewarded for protostomping noobs in high sec instant battles? |
Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:39:00 -
[80] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:That's not a very fun reward, especially with how many cheap (read: unavoidable) ways there are to die instantly in DUST.
Then don't use proto-gear? I still don't see the problem here. Quite frankly you're starting to sound like someone who's butthurt he died to a RE he didn't see in his proto-suit. |
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Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1257
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:40:00 -
[81] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:Baal Roo wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Noc Tempre wrote: The situation right now is 2x the risk is 1.2x the reward.
Don't risk anything you aren't prepared to lose. That's not the point. To be long term profitable, the increase in reward has to at LEAST match the increase in risk. Simplest example is doubling down. 2x risk, 2x reward. It may be balanced, but is completely counter-intuitive to have infinite run gear not profitable for even a small niche of players. Why? Who decided running protogear at all times supposed to be long-term profitable? Then why does prototype gear exist? You are saying it should be always unprofitable for every player?
Prototype gear exists as a high end tool for tanking extra damage, packing on extra modules, etc when you NEED the edge to win big important battles. Why should the END GAME gear be profitable in what basically amount to training battles for new players? |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1322
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:42:00 -
[82] - Quote
Baal Rool wrote:
Prototype gear exists as a high end tool for tanking extra damage, packing on extra modules, etc when you NEED the edge to win big important battles. Why should the END GAME gear be profitable in what basically amount to training battles for new players?
Okay, what is winning in DUST? More ISK. But we just agreed it is never profitable long term. You have presented a contradiction. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1322
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:44:00 -
[83] - Quote
Justin Tymes wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:That's not a very fun reward, especially with how many cheap (read: unavoidable) ways there are to die instantly in DUST. Then don't use proto-gear? I still don't see the problem here. Quite frankly you're starting to sound like someone who's butthurt he died to a RE he didn't see in his proto-suit.
Your extreme ignorance is showing. We are talking economics here. Your contribution of HTFU is useless, and furthermore applied at the wrong person. |
Natu Nobilis
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
105
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:44:00 -
[84] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:My subs get punished for being aggressive.....
SSC
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William HBonney
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
329
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:45:00 -
[85] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:I don't know EXACTLY how well you're doing and how many times you're dying but I certainly agree rewards HEAVILY favor doing poorly in cheap suits.
In my tank I can go 20-0 (in skirmish) with upwards of 1900 points and make 250k. In my Sever logistics I can go 10-3 with 1900 points and make 250k. I can afk in base, go 0-0, and make 100-200k.
Rewards should be increased for increased WP.
I have NO idea what currently decides how much isk you make, but it sure as hell isn't WP. I am glad someone gets what the OP is talking about. The OP is not stroking his own epeen nor is he trying to make things better for his own good. What he is saying is that the current reward system is not based off of performance. Just like sp, it was flatlined to help noobs (read as eve players with no gun game), isk is flatlined to help noobs....we should just all afk because that is the smartest way to earn isk and sp. |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1257
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:45:00 -
[86] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:Baal Rool wrote:
Prototype gear exists as a high end tool for tanking extra damage, packing on extra modules, etc when you NEED the edge to win big important battles. Why should the END GAME gear be profitable in what basically amount to training battles for new players?
Okay, what is winning in DUST? More ISK. But we just agreed it is never profitable long term. You have presented a contradiction.
We agreed on no such thing. It's rarely profitable IN HIGH SEC INSTANT BATTLE TRAINING MATCHES. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1322
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:46:00 -
[87] - Quote
William HBonney wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:I don't know EXACTLY how well you're doing and how many times you're dying but I certainly agree rewards HEAVILY favor doing poorly in cheap suits.
In my tank I can go 20-0 (in skirmish) with upwards of 1900 points and make 250k. In my Sever logistics I can go 10-3 with 1900 points and make 250k. I can afk in base, go 0-0, and make 100-200k.
Rewards should be increased for increased WP.
I have NO idea what currently decides how much isk you make, but it sure as hell isn't WP. I am glad someone gets what the OP is talking about. The OP is not stroking his own epeen nor is he trying to make things better for his own good. What he is saying is that the current reward system is not based off of performance. Just like sp, it was flatlined to help noobs (read as eve players with no gun game), isk is flatlined to help noobs....we should just all afk because that is the smartest way to earn isk and sp.
In summation - it removes the player investment since they have less agency in the outcome. |
copy left
The Wanderer Copy Left
99
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:47:00 -
[88] - Quote
Honestly proto should not be sustainable. I see proto as a sort of power up. You use it while you have it to gain an advantage. Think dragon ball z, you power up super saiyan for as long as you can handle it, then afterwards you go back to your regular old self again. |
XxWarlordxX97
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1557
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:48:00 -
[89] - Quote
ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote:I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous.
EDIT: I forgot this major point, they get 500 WP 10-1 and get about 200k ISK I get 30 kills and 3 deaths with 1500+ WP and only get 400k ISK. that's the real issue. the game feeds noobs.
are you calling me a noob because I don't have a lot of ISK |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1258
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:50:00 -
[90] - Quote
William HBonney wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:I don't know EXACTLY how well you're doing and how many times you're dying but I certainly agree rewards HEAVILY favor doing poorly in cheap suits.
In my tank I can go 20-0 (in skirmish) with upwards of 1900 points and make 250k. In my Sever logistics I can go 10-3 with 1900 points and make 250k. I can afk in base, go 0-0, and make 100-200k.
Rewards should be increased for increased WP.
I have NO idea what currently decides how much isk you make, but it sure as hell isn't WP. I am glad someone gets what the OP is talking about. The OP is not stroking his own epeen nor is he trying to make things better for his own good. What he is saying is that the current reward system is not based off of performance. Just like sp, it was flatlined to help noobs (read as eve players with no gun game), isk is flatlined to help noobs....we should just all afk because that is the smartest way to earn isk and sp.
Gear costs money. Use expensive gear and die, make less money. A player needs to be able to look at the payout available for a particular match and figure out how much ISK to risk in the battle. Don't bring a suit into a training match that costs more than you'll make for winning the match, and then act surprised when you end up ISK negative. Sure cost/reward doesn't scale on a 1:1 basis, but no one is making any compelling arguments for why it SHOULD beyond "I want to use prototype gear all the time, even in high sec space against noobs learning to play the game". |
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