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Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 23	Posted - 2013.04.28 05:19:00 - [1] - Quote Val'herik Dorn wrote: OH WOW THIS IS A PROBLEM?! run cheaper gear problem solved. Running cheaper gear doesn't SOLVE anything. Its just a way around what was obviously flawed about the economics in this build. Having to run cheaper gear to make a profit defeats the purpose of 'leveling up'. It also is not conducive to WINNING the battle which is ALSO supposed to net a profit of some kind is it not? However, I disagree with the OP that the system is a noob feeder. If the current system was a noob feeder, why do the noobs not stick around? (several reasons) OP is running Protos and performing well and not making any real ISK. That's not 'leveling up' and makes no sense if the goal is to 'level up' and get better. Personally, I do good, bad, and ugly (not in that order) but I have broke almost even overall.I do pretty decent in WP seeing as how I run AA a lot. I run infantry 99% of the time and found that around the time all/most of my gear was meta level 3, I had to alter a lot of my fits to make any money. I guess one can argue that if one is breaking even in k/d, then they should break even in ISK. By that logic, the ones going 3-10, 4-8, 9-15, 14-20 will/should operate at a loss. This is whether or not they win or lose once they are using upper-advanced gear. The way it has been, as the OP said, one can be performing well and not profit without using cheap gear. If that is the way it is supposed to be, where is anyone's, at any level's, incentive to 'level up'? What's the purpose of leveling up (to maybe try and improve k.d) if one can't afford to fight in the gear that they skilled up in? Now is a situation where one is forced to choose to either run free/cheaper gear until they can skill a good tank, hide with their good tank or good gear constantly, AFK, or play something else. We will see how the new build changes the economics of ISK and SP. Running cheaper gear is not a solution to the problem. One should never have to run their free/cheap gear unless they are at that SP level or they are true 'starters'. Or unless they of course ran out of good fittings in the fight in which case maybe they don't deserve to profit in that round.
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 28	Posted - 2013.04.29 17:08:00 - [2] - Quote shaman oga wrote: two words:diminishing returns If you want more isk you have to play with a cheaper fit. Choose Isk or KDR, DUST is not only a FPS it's also a RPG. No. Why does RPG appear no where on the DUST514 frontpage? If anything the front page advertises how IMPORTANT dust SUPPOSEDLY will be. And again, like I said earlier in this thread, having to resort to cheaper fits when one is skilled for the good stuff is contradictory to the reasons one should want to ''level up''. Nobody can admit that the economics in this build were plucked. Fanboys can't admit anything's flawed about that pole.
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 28	Posted - 2013.04.29 17:23:00 - [3] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Rigor Mordis wrote: No. Why does RPG appear no where on the DUST514 frontpage? You want deny that Dust have also a RPG side? If it does? Does that mean it has to have sissy glitches and exploits laden throughout it?
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 28	Posted - 2013.04.29 17:41:00 - [4] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: Last time i checked you don't get paid better for getting the same job done with better tools. NSS. Last time I checked nobody is stupid enough to buy better/more expensive tools when they can do the job with rentals. Just as no company is stupid enough to manufacture 'luxury' tools when a good carpenter/builder doesn't really need them. Last time I checked, companies actually BID on jobs knowing the investment that has to be made upfront. Last time I checked, companies issue change-orders when a job requires tools that they don't have or work that is added-on. Just more deck stacking bs that is all going to change. Hopefully for the better, not for the fanboy.
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 28	Posted - 2013.04.29 18:01:00 - [5] - Quote Billi Gene wrote: iirc: isk payout is balanced around gear destroyed.... your are killing people running cheap fits you get less isk then if you kill people wearing expensive fits.... in other words your risk is greater then theirs. but then you already should have known this... How are some people supposed to just know? Its not like it actually explains that anywhere in-game. Hell, one can spend 2-3 months on these forums and never find that information. Then, if they were to ask about in on here they would likely just get a self-righteous reply and bullied around the forums.
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 28	Posted - 2013.04.29 19:30:00 - [6] - Quote Ok fine. We'll see after the launch. As it is now, the only options anyone has are pub matches and contracts. I realize this is about to change. IDK what anyone else has been playing or what neighborhood they have been building in, but the competing builders are using luxury tools ALL OVER the place in the projects. I'm not entirely opposed to what you guys are saying, and I am definitely not opposed to risk v. reward. But look at tanks in pub matches. Heres a builder who who brought in a crane to erect a single-wide trailer....And he's going to walk away with buku chips if he is good at running and hiding(taking smoke breaks) and/or there is no skilled opposition. (not to mention the cheap spawn camp kills) Variety of weapons - great. Depth of the skill system - great. Being rewarded for quality of work done on the job - Great. Not profiting because you invested early on in tools for building foundations while a guy with a crane USUALLY builds nothing and gets paid more for less work - worthless. Bottom line....Mercs need a UNION.
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 28	Posted - 2013.04.29 19:53:00 - [7] - Quote Not to mention, the guy with the crane can pick up illegals and those illegals can siesta in the cab and walk away with one of the best checks from the job. Then tank is commissioned, there another piece of a pie off of a pie that's been half eaten. I realize that in the end of it all that people are working for the SP levels to be all-around or completely versatile. The way this was set up, one had to have 2 characters. An infantry toon to TRY and have fun in what was a grossly imbalanced and BORING love-in/circle jerk, and a vehicle toon to farm cheap SP and make significant ISK. * ISK WHICH THEN IS TRANSFERABLE to the infantry toon as needed. ** For the FPS purists who do not look for routes of exploitation and insurmountable advantages that haven't yet realized some of the RPG weaknesses/exploits about DUST that aren't as obvious as others.
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 28	Posted - 2013.04.29 20:33:00 - [8] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Rigor Mordis wrote: An infantry toon to TRY and have fun in what was a grossly imbalanced and BORING love-in/circle jerk, and a vehicle toon to farm cheap SP and make significant ISK. * ISK WHICH THEN IS TRANSFERABLE to the infantry toon as needed. I have two PG and it works exactly the opposite. I figured some did. Shouldn't be that way. Shouldn't have to. Regardless if ISK is paid what's destroyed, a kill is 50 WP. With a hack being only 100 for nulls and 50 for everything else. Right there one doesn't have to be a mathematician to easily see that it ''don't pay'' to actually concern yourself with objectives rather than get an easy check by exploiting weaknesses and harvesting disproportionate numbers. ---30-1, alone in a tank with no other destruction nets 1500 WP. 1-15, 12 hacks on nulls, 5 hacks on other, in a proto CB logi,scout,assault, with no other support or destruction nets 1500 WP. Both mercs win match on MCC destruction. It can be argued that both mercs contributed equally to the win. But, who took the bigger risk(s)? Who actually sees the bigger reward?---- And the forum hasn't died because you keep checking in on it Crash.
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 29	Posted - 2013.04.29 21:09:00 - [9] - Quote Washlee wrote: ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote: I have a 10.5 and rising K/D and I barely make money running proto suits while other full proto players I know make upwards of 5m a day, I usually die more than them but get a proportional more amount of kills, some days I LOSE money. that's ridiculous. EDIT: I forgot this major point, they get 500 WP 10-1 and get about 200k ISK I get 30 kills and 3 deaths with 1500+ WP and only get 400k ISK. that's the real issue. the game feeds noobs. As everyone has said before , Don't use what you can't afford oh It's not don't ''use''. it's don't LOSE what you cant afford. We all see this when we see a tanker running for the hills every time the ish gets deep. Or a dropship that parks and AFKs. Those tactics are contradictory to the claims that this provides an intense warfare experience where victory is achieved through teamwork and tactical strategy IF Victory and ISK profit are supposed to correlate.
Rigor Mordis Imperial Populicide Legion 29	Posted - 2013.04.30 09:23:00 - [10] - Quote Wow! Somebody used a reference to WoW. Right there is the problem. Gearing a shooter toward RPG gamers/role players, rather than gearing it toward shooter warriors/killers. The economics is only 1 single part of this build that isn't all that important to those looking for a good shooter. However, to sustain the new player base gained, this game needs to reward people with something other than the ability to pubstomp, spawn camp, redline snipe, mountain glitch, or any of the other hooker tactics that people claiming the game is great like about it. Just to clarify with those that everything DUST/RPG/MMO/''nerf'' has to be clarified through, how is it MMO when we have been, and will be playing with LESS people than we have played with in games that NEVER claimed to be MMO or even have a MMO tie-in? How can anything be ''nerfed'' in a game AND genre (RPG) that is the epitome of ''nerf''? Seriously FPS people, what is weaker than most RPG? Puzzle games? Disney movies? 6 year old girls? The Chicago Cubs? I am willing to see what PC and FW pays before I question the accreditation of the mathematics departments all over the world. While we talk about math, I also want a clarification on the numbers thrown out by CCP and forum people. 500k EVE subscriptions reached this last year right? And somebody said 60k ''playing'' DUST. Is that right? Lets try to get a clarification from the self-righteous experts. Is that 500k subscribers, 500k CURRENTLY playing and subscribing? Or. is that 500k, 250k CURRENTLY subscribing and 250k that cancelled because they had more exciting and competitive things to do for 10 years? Either way, how great is 500k over 10 years? Must be some really intense stuff seeing as how EVERYBODY knew about it BEFORE Dust and knew about the closed beta. If 60k is the right # for dust, then that is 60k toons created. It sure as hell isn't 60k actually ''playing''. Out of that 60k, how many do not play because of bad battle dynamics, inferior mechanics, questionable fairness/unfairness of the token economy, bad spawn fundamentals, easy exploitation of glitches/weaknesses, etc. etc. etc.? All these numbers need some solid backing. Agreed? How does anyone expect Dust to reach 500k much less keep 500k if the game holds on to FPS flaws and poor FPS fundamentals in favor of keeping a handful of RPG ''scrubs'' happy? And people can't base their anointing people ''scrubs'' on any performance good OR bad in DUST. That is because DUST is to the shooter genre as the WNBA is to the NBA. DUST is to the RPG genre as the NBA D-League is to the NBA. The shooter genre is to the RPG genre as the NFL is to the PGA. Actually no because the PGA requires tremendous skill and doesn't pay so little, get so little notoriety, that the Pros have to play with amateur-level clubs. The shooter genre is to the RPG genre as the NFL is to Backyard Wrestling. REAL skill and hard work and strategy versus imaginary likeability and fulfillment of a fantasy and predetermined outcomes.

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