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Arirana
Negative-Feedback.
969
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Posted - 2015.06.11 22:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
I believe all of the scouts' racial bonuses and overall roles should really be reconsidered, due to issues with their definable roles. Take the min scout for example.
Its the fastest and squishiest of them all in terms of attributes. Makes sense. But the racial bonuses do not really sit right when common sense and deductive reasoning is involved.
+5% bonus to hacking speed and Nova Knife damage per level. Sounds good, speedy, squishy, fast hacks and extra damage with nova knives. Except the Nova Knife is a CALDARI WEAPON. Why would a minmatar suit receive RACIAL bonus damage to a caldari weapon?
A damage bonus so significant you might as well put "Only viable when used by the minmatar scout, really" in the Nova Knife description. The Nova Knife in general appears to primarily be a stealth, charge up cqc weapon. So in order to use it effectively, you HAVE to double damp up (thanks to the team shared scans of the mvp GalEagle-Eye Logi) and run a kin cat to get close (lol cloaks)
But what about the hacking bonus? Does that mean the min scout is meant to be the speed hacker role? That would be the case, if not for the gal logi yet again. Even with 2 proto damps and a codebreaker, the min scout can STILL be scanned by a focused scanner wielded by the gal logi(not to mention you will be rather sluggish to utilize your knives)
Yet the gal scout equipped with double damps and double codebreakers achieves the same HP anf hack speed as that min scout fit, but can beat a gal logi with a focused scanner. This is because of the gal scout's "3% to scan profile per level" bonus, a bonus which would be invaluable to both a speed hacker and someone wielding the Nova Knives.
So heres an idea: set the "3% to scan profile per level" bonus as the scout suit bonus alongside the scout bonus to CPU/pg cost of the lol cloak. Then remove the bonus damage to caldari nova knives from the min scout. To counteract this nerf to the already outclassed-by-the-shotgun nova knives (I know NKs have more DPS, but that doesn't mean anything to a shotgunner dancing just out of butter knife range) just increase the base damage of the nova knives by 25%. Yay viable knives for everyone.
Remove the stamina bonus to the amarr scout to make room for the stealth bonus (if the stamina of the amarr scout really should stay that high then change the base values).
Move the stealth bonus of the cal and gal scout over to the scout suit bonus and boom, almost golden.
Now the racial bonus the gal scout will be left with. A 2% bonus to scan precision simply makes no sense considering the amarr scout bonus is the same thing 2.5 times better. I really can't think of a good replacement bonus, besides maybe an additional bonus to scan profile, but that really seems redundant. Someone else will have to come up with a better one.
All of that^ is my current idea of pro eve lore yet balanced, defined scout roles. Yeah, I know it will mainly be a buff to the min and amarr scout's stealth, no different for the cal scout and maybe only a slight change for the gal scout. I'm not satisfied with that either, so let's discuss it. What do you guys think the bonuses should be?
TL;DR: Give all scouts the same 3% bonus to scan profile, remove min scout DMG bonus to Caldari Nova Knives, remove or apply the amarr scout stamina bonus to directly to its base attributes, change the gal scout 2% scan profile bonus to something not 2/5ths of the amarr scout bonus. Buff base nova knife DMG by 25% (yay useful knives for everyone)
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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SLENDER M4N
Xer Cloud Consortium
557
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Posted - 2015.06.11 22:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
I still cant over the fact I was PLC'ed off of my LAV.
Jadek! I have kidnapped one of your alts! Pay the ransom or you'll never see him again!
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Apocalyptic Destroyerr
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
281
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Posted - 2015.06.11 22:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
I always wondered why the Minmitrash got bonuses to the Swarms and Novaknives.. Doesn't make a damn sense at all. |
Makuta Miserix
Nos Nothi
594
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Posted - 2015.06.11 22:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
Remove the NK bonus from the MinScout?
Not too sure I appreciate what you're saying there. 
Proud supporter of Scouts.
- Makuta Miserix the Assault/Logi part time Scout.
Private Beta Veteran Dust 514/Starhawk
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J0LLY R0G3R
Negative-Feedback.
3
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
I gots the lube.
XD
TheYoutube XD
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Georgia Xavier
Y.A.M.A.H
No Context
663
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Makuta Miserix wrote:Remove the NK bonus from the MinScout? Not too sure I appreciate what you're saying there.
It's the Caldari's in the first place. So basically you're taking pride from borrowed power
Click me
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CoochMaster Flex
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
127
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
I love my MinScout. :(
Hard mode B. - Gongshow Akuma.
Get Better! - T9999.
ConHu Lives! $$$
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Dreis ShadowWeaver
0uter.Heaven
4
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hmm... What kind of bonus could we have to replace the Nova Knife damage bonus?
Or could we still keep our damage bonus and have super duper Knives? 
The Scout bonuses seem to be working ok to me, and I don't think they really need another major shake-up since the last one when the Cal Scout was OP, or even when the Amarr Scout was the best back when we had a larger Scan Radius. I think the only Scout that should have it's bonuses looked is the Amarr Scout.
Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel
My Minja Blog
Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
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Dreis ShadowWeaver
0uter.Heaven
4
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Georgia Xavier wrote:Makuta Miserix wrote:Remove the NK bonus from the MinScout? Not too sure I appreciate what you're saying there. It's the Caldari's in the first place. So basically you're taking pride from borrowed power
I think that it works well just in terms of balance. Is it really a big deal that it doesn't make sense lore-wise?
Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel
My Minja Blog
Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
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Dzago Sevatarion
DUST University
Ivy League
14
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
It's not ideal but I don't find Minmatar scouts getting pushed into using a Caldari weapon offensive from a lore perspective. They're some cultural similarities between them and Minmatar industries aren't universe-wide trend setters. |
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Radiant Pancake3
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
121
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Arirana wrote:I believe all of the scouts' racial bonuses and overall roles should really be reconsidered, due to issues with their definable roles. Take the min scout for example.
Its the fastest and squishiest of them all in terms of attributes. Makes sense. But the racial bonuses do not really sit right when common sense and deductive reasoning is involved.
+5% bonus to hacking speed and Nova Knife damage per level. Sounds good, speedy, squishy, fast hacks and extra damage with nova knives. Except the Nova Knife is a CALDARI WEAPON. Why would a minmatar suit receive RACIAL bonus damage to a caldari weapon?
A damage bonus so significant you might as well put "Only viable when used by the minmatar scout, really" in the Nova Knife description. The Nova Knife in general appears to primarily be a stealth, charge up cqc weapon. So in order to use it effectively, you HAVE to double damp up (thanks to the team shared scans of the mvp GalEagle-Eye Logi) and run a kin cat to get close (lol cloaks)
But what about the hacking bonus? Does that mean the min scout is meant to be the speed hacker role? That would be the case, if not for the gal logi yet again. Even with 2 proto damps and a codebreaker, the min scout can STILL be scanned by a focused scanner wielded by the gal logi(not to mention you will be rather sluggish to utilize your knives)
Yet the gal scout equipped with double damps and double codebreakers achieves the same HP anf hack speed as that min scout fit, but can beat a gal logi with a focused scanner. This is because of the gal scout's "3% to scan profile per level" bonus, a bonus which would be invaluable to both a speed hacker and someone wielding the Nova Knives.
So heres an idea: set the "3% to scan profile per level" bonus as the scout suit bonus alongside the scout bonus to CPU/pg cost of the lol cloak. Then remove the bonus damage to caldari nova knives from the min scout. To counteract this nerf to the already outclassed-by-the-shotgun nova knives (I know NKs have more DPS, but that doesn't mean anything to a shotgunner dancing just out of butter knife range) just increase the base damage of the nova knives by 25%. Yay viable knives for everyone.
Remove the stamina bonus to the amarr scout to make room for the stealth bonus (if the stamina of the amarr scout really should stay that high then change the base values).
Move the stealth bonus of the cal and gal scout over to the scout suit bonus and boom, almost golden.
Now the racial bonus the gal scout will be left with. A 2% bonus to scan precision simply makes no sense considering the amarr scout bonus is the same thing 2.5 times better. I really can't think of a good replacement bonus, besides maybe an additional bonus to scan profile, but that really seems redundant. Someone else will have to come up with a better one.
All of that^ is my current idea of pro eve lore yet balanced, defined scout roles. Yeah, I know it will mainly be a buff to the min and amarr scout's stealth, no different for the cal scout and maybe only a slight change for the gal scout. I'm not satisfied with that either, so let's discuss it. What do you guys think the bonuses should be?
TL;DR: Give all scouts the same 3% bonus to scan profile, remove min scout DMG bonus to Caldari Nova Knives, remove or apply the amarr scout stamina bonus to directly to its base attributes, change the gal scout 2% scan profile bonus to something not 2/5ths of the amarr scout bonus. Buff base nova knife DMG by 25% (yay useful knives for everyone)
What's a lol cloak? All i've seen are Cloak fields.
I am the Clown of Ass or am I the Ass of Clown... o.O
Gû¼Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉGòÉn¦ñ Minmatar Loyalist Gû¼Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉGòÉn¦ñ
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Georgia Xavier
Y.A.M.A.H
No Context
664
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Georgia Xavier wrote:Makuta Miserix wrote:Remove the NK bonus from the MinScout? Not too sure I appreciate what you're saying there. It's the Caldari's in the first place. So basically you're taking pride from borrowed power I think that it works well just in terms of balance. Is it really a big deal that it doesn't make sense lore-wise?
Oh jeez fine! I want to agree with you really I do but if the min keep knife bonus then I want a Matari pair of knives! That way I would feel much better
Click me
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Arirana
Negative-Feedback.
970
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Hmm... What kind of bonus could we have to replace the Nova Knife damage bonus? Or could we still keep our damage bonus and have super duper Knives? The Scout bonuses seem to be working ok to me, and I don't think they really need another major shake-up since the last one when the Cal Scout was OP, or even when the Amarr Scout was the best back when we had a larger Scan Radius. I think the only Scout that should have it's bonuses looked is the Amarr Scout.
The stealth bonus. If that's really not enough, I had an idea involving swapping some of the min scout's CPU for more base pg. I'm sure you can see the appeal of that.
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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Dreis ShadowWeaver
0uter.Heaven
4
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Oh and btw, in the OP you mentioned that the Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers hacks as fast as a Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker, but that's not true. A Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker hacks faster than a Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers.
Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel
My Minja Blog
Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
I completely agree with moving the cal/gal bonus to the scout role and have suggested it previously.
I think removing the NK bonus from the min scout and just upping the NK damage is a really good idea to consider. It would make NKs more universally usable which could be good to consider. I wonder if it benefits non scouts more though.
Overlord of Broman
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Dreis ShadowWeaver
0uter.Heaven
4
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
So am I understanding correctly in that you're saying that all Scouts should only have 1 racial bonus and neutral bonuses of +3% to Profile and the Cloak fitting cost bonus?
Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel
My Minja Blog
Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Oh and btw, in the OP you mentioned that the Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers hacks as fast as a Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker, but that's not true. A Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker hacks faster than a Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers.
Of topic. What do you use for a speed hacker in PC? I tried all code breakers a while back but I was scanned to hell and had a hard time most of the time.
Overlord of Broman
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Joel II X
Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
7
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
A Gallente Scout with 2 CBs halls slower than a Minmatar Scout with 1 CB. Why? Stacking penalty.
If you remove the cloak fitting bonus, then every class will be able to equip one without many problems.
If you want to scout and damp, use according suits.
Nova Knives are a placeholder for the Minmatar Combat Knives that are never coming.
Knives are fine without the bonus... Well, ADV and PRO ones. I think we can all agree that the STD one sucks monkey d***. The bonus is just to make them over the top. |
Dreis ShadowWeaver
0uter.Heaven
4
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Oh and btw, in the OP you mentioned that the Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers hacks as fast as a Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker, but that's not true. A Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker hacks faster than a Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers. Of topic. What do you use for a speed hacker in PC? I tried all code breakers a while back but I was scanned to hell and had a hard time most of the time.
I use a Minja. Usually it's not about stealth-hacks, but more about getting clinch-hacks whilst your team holds the reds off of the point for a few precious seconds. It usually doesn't matter if you're scanned in this situation because you're not trying for stealth and are relying on your teammates for protection.
So yes, I use all Codebreakers. I find that they all make a significant difference.
Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel
My Minja Blog
Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
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Arirana
Negative-Feedback.
972
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
I understand the primary argument from a min scout's point of view being "but that's my BAYBAY!" but think about it for a minute. Nova Knives are only OK-ish on any non min scout. The nova knives should not be monopolized by a single scout suit, they should be a viable extreme cqc sidearm option for anyone who wants to slice their unsuspecting targets with deadly efficiency, not 3-4 times a charm o **** how is he still alive efficiency.
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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DR DEESE NUTS
113
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:34:00 -
[21] - Quote
Lol. Nova knives are plasma and cqc oriented. They are obviously Gallente. Don't know why people think there Caldari. It's literally the opposite of the Caldari doctrine which shoot from long range and make every shot count. Oppose to Gallente which get in close and bi tch` slap them with loads of damage.
The USS m`dick
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Sylwester Dziewiecki
472
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
Arirana wrote:
TL;DR: Give all scouts the same 3% bonus to scan profile, remove min scout DMG bonus to Caldari Nova Knives, remove or apply the amarr scout stamina bonus to directly to its base attributes, change the gal scout 2% scan profile bonus to something not 2/5ths of the amarr scout bonus. Buff base nova knife DMG by 25% (yay useful knives for everyone)
Add to that buffing every lightsuit melee damage up to 150
Gallente Speed Scout.
EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
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Arirana
Negative-Feedback.
972
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:41:00 -
[23] - Quote
DR DEESE NUTS wrote:Lol. Nova knives are plasma and cqc oriented. They are obviously Gallente. Don't know why people think there Caldari. It's literally the opposite of the Caldari doctrine which shoot from long range and make every shot count. Oppose to Gallente which get in close and bi tch` slap them with loads of damage.
That rings true lore wise but what about the model design? It undeniably looks like caldari tech with straight edges and sharp corners.
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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Dreis ShadowWeaver
0uter.Heaven
4
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
DR DEESE NUTS wrote:Lol. Nova knives are plasma and cqc oriented. They are obviously Gallente. Don't know why people think there Caldari. It's literally the opposite of the Caldari doctrine which shoot from long range and make every shot count. Oppose to Gallente which get in close and *****` slap them with loads of damage.
I assumed that the Caldari made Nova Knives to be their last resort in a forced CQC situation.
I'm also pretty sure that I read somewhere on EVElopedia that the art of knife combat has a special Caldari name, and mastery of which is a requirement for every Commander - or something. 
They're 100% Caldari.
Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel
My Minja Blog
Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
J0LLY R0G3R wrote:I gots the lube.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:43:00 -
[26] - Quote
Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Ares 514 wrote:Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Oh and btw, in the OP you mentioned that the Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers hacks as fast as a Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker, but that's not true. A Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker hacks faster than a Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers. Of topic. What do you use for a speed hacker in PC? I tried all code breakers a while back but I was scanned to hell and had a hard time most of the time. I use a Minja. Usually it's not about stealth-hacks, but more about getting clinch-hacks whilst your team holds the reds off of the point for a few precious seconds. It usually doesn't matter if you're scanned in this situation because you're not trying for stealth and are relying on your teammates for protection. So yes, I use all Codebreakers. I find that they all make a significant difference.
Yeah, that was my thought when I made the fit. I guess I need better coordination/support from my teammates.
Overlord of Broman
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Arirana wrote:DR DEESE NUTS wrote:Lol. Nova knives are plasma and cqc oriented. They are obviously Gallente. Don't know why people think there Caldari. It's literally the opposite of the Caldari doctrine which shoot from long range and make every shot count. Oppose to Gallente which get in close and bi tch` slap them with loads of damage. That rings true lore wise but what about the model design? It undeniably looks like caldari tech with straight edges and sharp corners.
How's the NK joke go? NKs are Gallente tech manufactured by Caldari, which perform best when wielded by Minmatar.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Diablo Gamekeeper
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
No Context
429
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:44:00 -
[28] - Quote
Arirana wrote:I believe all of the scouts' racial bonuses and overall roles should really be reconsidered, due to issues with their definable roles. Take the min scout for example.
Its the fastest and squishiest of them all in terms of attributes. Makes sense. But the racial bonuses do not really sit right when common sense and deductive reasoning is involved.
+5% bonus to hacking speed and Nova Knife damage per level. Sounds good, speedy, squishy, fast hacks and extra damage with nova knives. Except the Nova Knife is a CALDARI WEAPON. Why would a minmatar suit receive RACIAL bonus damage to a caldari weapon?
A damage bonus so significant you might as well put "Only viable when used by the minmatar scout, really" in the Nova Knife description. The Nova Knife in general appears to primarily be a stealth, charge up cqc weapon. So in order to use it effectively, you HAVE to double damp up (thanks to the team shared scans of the mvp GalEagle-Eye Logi) and run a kin cat to get close (lol cloaks)
But what about the hacking bonus? Does that mean the min scout is meant to be the speed hacker role? That would be the case, if not for the gal logi yet again. Even with 2 proto damps and a codebreaker, the min scout can STILL be scanned by a focused scanner wielded by the gal logi(not to mention you will be rather sluggish to utilize your knives)
Yet the gal scout equipped with double damps and double codebreakers achieves the same HP anf hack speed as that min scout fit, but can beat a gal logi with a focused scanner. This is because of the gal scout's "3% to scan profile per level" bonus, a bonus which would be invaluable to both a speed hacker and someone wielding the Nova Knives.
So heres an idea: set the "3% to scan profile per level" bonus as the scout suit bonus alongside the scout bonus to CPU/pg cost of the lol cloak. Then remove the bonus damage to caldari nova knives from the min scout. To counteract this nerf to the already outclassed-by-the-shotgun nova knives (I know NKs have more DPS, but that doesn't mean anything to a shotgunner dancing just out of butter knife range) just increase the base damage of the nova knives by 25%. Yay viable knives for everyone.
Remove the stamina bonus to the amarr scout to make room for the stealth bonus (if the stamina of the amarr scout really should stay that high then change the base values).
Move the stealth bonus of the cal and gal scout over to the scout suit bonus and boom, almost golden.
Now the racial bonus the gal scout will be left with. A 2% bonus to scan precision simply makes no sense considering the amarr scout bonus is the same thing 2.5 times better. I really can't think of a good replacement bonus, besides maybe an additional bonus to scan profile, but that really seems redundant. Someone else will have to come up with a better one.
All of that^ is my current idea of pro eve lore yet balanced, defined scout roles. Yeah, I know it will mainly be a buff to the min and amarr scout's stealth, no different for the cal scout and maybe only a slight change for the gal scout. I'm not satisfied with that either, so let's discuss it. What do you guys think the bonuses should be?
TL;DR: Give all scouts the same 3% bonus to scan profile, remove min scout DMG bonus to Caldari Nova Knives, remove or apply the amarr scout stamina bonus to directly to its base attributes, change the gal scout 2% scan profile bonus to something not 2/5ths of the amarr scout bonus. Buff base nova knife DMG by 25% (yay useful knives for everyone)
I believe galscout has to be triple damp to escape the scans
TUNNEL SNAKES RULE
I have DESTROYED CCP Rattati
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:46:00 -
[29] - Quote
I believe galscout has to be triple damp to escape the scans[/quote]
When he says "GalEagle-Eye Logi", I believe he's referring to the always-up, team-wide 21dB scans (rather than the slow-to-recharge, squad-wide 15dB focused scans).
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Arirana
Negative-Feedback.
972
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:52:00 -
[30] - Quote
Diablo Gamekeeper wrote:
I believe galscout has to be triple damp to escape the scans
Gal logi focused scans reach 15db, the gal scout with 2 damps hits 16, -10% with a proto cloak activated it drops below 15. I'm comparing cloaked speedhackera.
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:54:00 -
[31] - Quote
inb4qqlogis
damn, too late.
<3s anyways.
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
6
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:06:00 -
[32] - Quote
DR DEESE NUTS wrote:Lol. Nova knives are plasma and cqc oriented. They are obviously Gallente. Don't know why people think there Caldari. It's literally the opposite of the Caldari doctrine which shoot from long range and make every shot count. Oppose to Gallente which get in close and bi tch` slap them with loads of damage.
Every military force that has ever existed whether they favored close, long, mounted, or foot have always trained their soldiers for cqc. Saying knives are caldari philosophy is ignorant as its usually a last resort for any person.
"The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited."
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DDx77
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
293
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:07:00 -
[33] - Quote
Yes the min scout needs a buff like this big time.
I like your idea for nova knives, what if there was a second proficiency skill for this extra 25% damage?
The cal scout feels like it needs some love in the same way Amarr does - some added scan range?
(I forget what/if the cal had a better bonus before)
Ever since the radius scan change the Amarr scout became almost useless
The gal scout is great as usual |
el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:19:00 -
[34] - Quote
I would love to have my hacking bonus back, btw.
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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Nachos
331
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:24:00 -
[35] - Quote
Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Oh and btw, in the OP you mentioned that the Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers hacks as fast as a Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker, but that's not true. A Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker hacks faster than a Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers.
they hack equally as fast...min scout bonus is 25%+ cmp codebreaker which brings it to 50%
gal scout gets 2 x 25% bonuses because codebreakers have no stacking penalties
xavier zor's alt
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Scheneighnay McBob
Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary
7
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:35:00 -
[36] - Quote
I stopped taking you seriously once you suggested using kincats with knives.
Rule 34.6.1: every parody will have a crossover
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
10
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:46:00 -
[37] - Quote
'Nerf Gal Logi Scans' thread in disguise, lol.
Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
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Dzago Sevatarion
DUST University
Ivy League
16
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Posted - 2015.06.12 01:01:00 -
[38] - Quote
DR DEESE NUTS wrote:Lol. Nova knives are plasma and cqc oriented. They are obviously Gallente. Don't know why people think there Caldari. It's literally the opposite of the Caldari doctrine which shoot from long range and make every shot count. Oppose to Gallente which get in close and bi tch` slap them with loads of damage.
http://dust514.com/media/concept-art/caldari-nova-knife/ |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.12 01:08:00 -
[39] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:I stopped taking you seriously once you suggested using kincats with knives.
I run KinCats on all my knifing fits. Am I doing it wrong?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.12 01:11:00 -
[40] - Quote
@ OP
An alternative idea. Rather than adding a +3% per level bonus to scan profile for all Scouts, why not reinstate Cloak's Active Damp bonus? This would achieve a similar end (for Scouts who run cloak) and would make the equipment more useful. The battlefield has changed substantially since cloak's active damp bonus was originally nerfed. It'd be a simple change, and I don't think it'd be overpowered.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 01:11:00 -
[41] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:I stopped taking you seriously once you suggested using kincats with knives. I run KinCats on all my knifing fits. Am I doing it wrong?
only if you're complaining about not being damped enough.
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.12 01:15:00 -
[42] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:I stopped taking you seriously once you suggested using kincats with knives. I run KinCats on all my knifing fits. Am I doing it wrong? only if you're complaining about not being damped enough.
I believe you dropped this:
* hands crutch *
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 01:19:00 -
[43] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:I stopped taking you seriously once you suggested using kincats with knives. I run KinCats on all my knifing fits. Am I doing it wrong? only if you're complaining about not being damped enough. I believe you dropped this: * hands crutch *
Thank you, here these are yours.
*slowly pours out bucket of tears*
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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Dreis ShadowWeaver
0uter.Heaven
4
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Posted - 2015.06.12 01:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
Nachos wrote:Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Oh and btw, in the OP you mentioned that the Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers hacks as fast as a Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker, but that's not true. A Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker hacks faster than a Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers. they hack equally as fast...min scout bonus is 25%+ cmp codebreaker which brings it to 50% gal scout gets 2 x 25% bonuses because codebreakers have no stacking penalties
The spreadsheet in this thread confirms that a Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker hacks faster than a Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers.
Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel
My Minja Blog
Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
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maybe deadcatz
Horizons' Edge
No Context
86
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Posted - 2015.06.12 01:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Hmm... What kind of bonus could we have to replace the Nova Knife damage bonus? Or could we still keep our damage bonus and have super duper Knives? The Scout bonuses seem to be working ok to me, and I don't think they really need another major shake-up since the last one when the Cal Scout was OP, or even when the Amarr Scout was the best back when we had a larger Scan Radius. I think the only Scout that should have it's bonuses looked is the Amarr Scout. the amarr scout bonus is fine if CCP touches that I'm done. The only reason I can standard stomp is because of that stamina bonus.
Ewar? What's that? Some kind of fancy new way of being lazy? Learn how to use your eyes and ears you maggots.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
976
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Posted - 2015.06.12 01:47:00 -
[46] - Quote
Interestingly I made almost the exact same proposal in the barbershop a while back.
A potential alternative Gallente scout bonus would be to cloak duration/recharge. Or give Caldari the cloak bonus and Galente scan range, if you want to be more racially aligned.
There are issues however. Firstly there is the danger of making the Minmatar scout overpowered. Also, whilst I like the idea of making knives more viable on other suits, removing the knife bonus to Min scouts potentially loses the flavour and heart of the suit. Knives are part of a Min scout's identity. Losing the bonus, even if knife damage was buffed generally, would remove that identity. |
maybe deadcatz
Horizons' Edge
No Context
87
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Posted - 2015.06.12 01:50:00 -
[47] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Interestingly I made almost the exact same proposal in the barbershop a while back.
A potential alternative Gallente scout bonus would be to cloak duration/recharge. Or give Caldari the cloak bonus and Galente scan range, if you want to be more racially aligned.
There are issues however. Firstly there is the danger of making the Minmatar scout overpowered. Also, whilst I like the idea of making knives more viable on other suits, removing the knife bonus to Min scouts potentially loses the flavour and heart of the suit. Knives are part of a Min scout's identity. Losing the bonus, even if knife damage was buffed generally, would remove that identity.
Preach it brother, oh wait I'm the runt scout the AK.0
Ewar? What's that? Some kind of fancy new way of being lazy? Learn how to use your eyes and ears you maggots.
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Dreis ShadowWeaver
0uter.Heaven
4
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Posted - 2015.06.12 02:01:00 -
[48] - Quote
maybe deadcatz wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Interestingly I made almost the exact same proposal in the barbershop a while back.
A potential alternative Gallente scout bonus would be to cloak duration/recharge. Or give Caldari the cloak bonus and Galente scan range, if you want to be more racially aligned.
There are issues however. Firstly there is the danger of making the Minmatar scout overpowered. Also, whilst I like the idea of making knives more viable on other suits, removing the knife bonus to Min scouts potentially loses the flavour and heart of the suit. Knives are part of a Min scout's identity. Losing the bonus, even if knife damage was buffed generally, would remove that identity. Preach it brother, oh wait I'm the runt scout the AK.0
I remember when the Minja was the runt Scout...
/nostalgic sigh 
Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel
My Minja Blog
Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
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maybe deadcatz
Horizons' Edge
No Context
90
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Posted - 2015.06.12 02:02:00 -
[49] - Quote
Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:maybe deadcatz wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Interestingly I made almost the exact same proposal in the barbershop a while back.
A potential alternative Gallente scout bonus would be to cloak duration/recharge. Or give Caldari the cloak bonus and Galente scan range, if you want to be more racially aligned.
There are issues however. Firstly there is the danger of making the Minmatar scout overpowered. Also, whilst I like the idea of making knives more viable on other suits, removing the knife bonus to Min scouts potentially loses the flavour and heart of the suit. Knives are part of a Min scout's identity. Losing the bonus, even if knife damage was buffed generally, would remove that identity. Preach it brother, oh wait I'm the runt scout the AK.0 I remember when the Minja was the runt Scout... /nostalgic sigh
I might not now how it was back then(I joined around uprising) bu t I know the runt lifestyle. Rattati tried to drown my kind
Ewar? What's that? Some kind of fancy new way of being lazy? Learn how to use your eyes and ears you maggots.
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Dreis ShadowWeaver
0uter.Heaven
4
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Posted - 2015.06.12 02:08:00 -
[50] - Quote
maybe deadcatz wrote:Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:maybe deadcatz wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Interestingly I made almost the exact same proposal in the barbershop a while back.
A potential alternative Gallente scout bonus would be to cloak duration/recharge. Or give Caldari the cloak bonus and Galente scan range, if you want to be more racially aligned.
There are issues however. Firstly there is the danger of making the Minmatar scout overpowered. Also, whilst I like the idea of making knives more viable on other suits, removing the knife bonus to Min scouts potentially loses the flavour and heart of the suit. Knives are part of a Min scout's identity. Losing the bonus, even if knife damage was buffed generally, would remove that identity. Preach it brother, oh wait I'm the runt scout the AK.0 I remember when the Minja was the runt Scout... /nostalgic sigh I might not now how it was back then(I joined around uprising) bu t I know the runt lifestyle. Rattati tried to drown my kind
Heheheh, I joined after Uprising 1.8, and the Minja was still the runt even then.
Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel
My Minja Blog
Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
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maybe deadcatz
Horizons' Edge
No Context
93
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Posted - 2015.06.12 02:10:00 -
[51] - Quote
Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:maybe deadcatz wrote:Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:maybe deadcatz wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Interestingly I made almost the exact same proposal in the barbershop a while back.
A potential alternative Gallente scout bonus would be to cloak duration/recharge. Or give Caldari the cloak bonus and Galente scan range, if you want to be more racially aligned.
There are issues however. Firstly there is the danger of making the Minmatar scout overpowered. Also, whilst I like the idea of making knives more viable on other suits, removing the knife bonus to Min scouts potentially loses the flavour and heart of the suit. Knives are part of a Min scout's identity. Losing the bonus, even if knife damage was buffed generally, would remove that identity. Preach it brother, oh wait I'm the runt scout the AK.0 I remember when the Minja was the runt Scout... /nostalgic sigh I might not now how it was back then(I joined around uprising) bu t I know the runt lifestyle. Rattati tried to drown my kind Heheheh, I joined after Uprising 1.8, and the Minja was still the runt even then.
I just got my new ishy knives and I'm having a blast. Some minjumpspam noobtuber got his throat cut midair as he came down. Best moment of my day.
Ewar? What's that? Some kind of fancy new way of being lazy? Learn how to use your eyes and ears you maggots.
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Dreis ShadowWeaver
0uter.Heaven
4
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Posted - 2015.06.12 02:16:00 -
[52] - Quote
maybe deadcatz wrote:Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:maybe deadcatz wrote:Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:maybe deadcatz wrote:Preach it brother, oh wait I'm the runt scout the AK.0 I remember when the Minja was the runt Scout... /nostalgic sigh I might not now how it was back then(I joined around uprising) bu t I know the runt lifestyle. Rattati tried to drown my kind Heheheh, I joined after Uprising 1.8, and the Minja was still the runt even then. I just got my new ishy knives and I'm having a blast. Some minjumpspam noobtuber got his throat cut midair as he came down. Best moment of my day.
It was saxonmish, wasn't it? His entire squad and him were running Min Assaults with stacked Myos and Mass Drivers or PLCs today; was annoying as Hell.
Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel
My Minja Blog
Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
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maybe deadcatz
Horizons' Edge
No Context
93
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Posted - 2015.06.12 02:18:00 -
[53] - Quote
deadcatz]Preach it brother, oh wait I'm the runt scout the AK.0[/quote]
I remember when the Minja was the runt Scout...
/nostalgic sigh [/quote]
I might not now how it was back then(I joined around uprising) bu t I know the runt lifestyle. Rattati tried to drown my kind
[/quote]
Heheheh, I joined after Uprising 1.8, and the Minja was still the runt even then.[/quote]
I just got my new ishy knives and I'm having a blast. Some minjumpspam noobtuber got his throat cut midair as he came down. Best moment of my day.
[/quote]
It was saxonmish, wasn't it? His entire squad and him were running Min Assaults with stacked Myos and Mass Drivers or PLCs today; was annoying as Hell.[/quote]
Naw. Haven't run into him. It was some random can only play with op stuff or he sucks noon.
Ewar? What's that? Some kind of fancy new way of being lazy? Learn how to use your eyes and ears you maggots.
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Georgia Xavier
Y.A.M.A.H
No Context
667
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Posted - 2015.06.12 02:56:00 -
[54] - Quote
Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:His entire squad and him were running Min Assaults with stacked Myos and Mass Drivers or PLCs today; was annoying as Hell.
For once I was glad I didn't play today, for even someone as stubborn as me would have rage quit if I saw not one but six jumpy assault mk.0 with AOE weapons and proceed to throw my controller at the wall with the velocity equivalent to the forge
Click me
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 03:30:00 -
[55] - Quote
intermittent short period long-cooldown scan bump!
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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DR DEESE NUTS
117
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Posted - 2015.06.12 05:00:00 -
[56] - Quote
The reason its Caldari is most likely because the devs didn't know alot about the lore and wanted to put a cqc knive sidearm. But one of the aurum varients of the nova knife is called pyrus allotek so that's one nova knive produced by the Gallente which leads me to believe the devs truly didn't decide what race the nova knive belongs with the minmatar using it the best. .
The nova knife is the who're of all the weapon.
The USS m`dick
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LUGMOS
Corrosive Synergy
No Context
4
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Posted - 2015.06.12 05:12:00 -
[57] - Quote
Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Heheheh, I joined after Uprising 1.8, and the Minja was still the runt even then.
Eh, I don't think so... Amarr Scout was always the runt scout because it couldn't play as one, it was (and is) always made to fit the light assault role, and is outclassed by the actual Amarr Assault there.
Sniper Rifles are for Nitrogenous Dioxide Borons
I am the Anti-FoTM
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maybe deadcatz
Horizons' Edge
No Context
96
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 05:20:00 -
[58] - Quote
LUGMOS wrote:Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Heheheh, I joined after Uprising 1.8, and the Minja was still the runt even then. Eh, I don't think so... Amarr Scout was always the runt scout because it couldn't play as one, it was (and is) always made to fit the light assault role, and is outclassed by the actual Amarr Assault there.
That's how I play my runt. As a mini bruiser that gas more stamina than all other suits
Ewar? What's that? Some kind of fancy new way of being lazy? Learn how to use your eyes and ears you maggots.
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 05:47:00 -
[59] - Quote
DDx77 wrote:Yes the min scout needs a buff like this big time.
Not at all true.
So basically the anti-general nova knife buff argument is "nuuuu we cants be scoutly bustards with minscout nks, it'll lose the flavour of the suit."
I mean if you like pathogenic reasoning like this that favors individual preference over general game balance, I'd advise you to agree. I'd advise you to become a communist, I'd advise you to believe religion over science, I'd advise you to hate people for their race.
Baseless emotional arguments/ideas have their place is society right?
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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DDx77
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
295
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Posted - 2015.06.12 07:44:00 -
[60] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:DDx77 wrote:Yes the min scout needs a buff like this big time. Not at all true. So basically the anti-general nova knife buff argument is "nuuuu we cants be scoutly bustards with minscout nks, it'll lose the flavour of the suit." I mean if you like pathogenic reasoning like this that favors individual preference over general game balance, I'd advise you to agree. I'd advise you to become a communist, I'd advise you to believe religion over science, I'd advise you to become an extremist for that religion, I'd advise you to hate people for their race. Baseless emotional arguments/ideas have their place is society right?
--
How does giving a scout - that is considered a ninja- a dampening bonus disrupt game balance? Are we talking about triple repped tanks that can die? It's.a. scout
Do you play this role? The minjas fun, but the Gal can do almost everything it does. Any comments on why the OPs suggestion would tip the scales of balance without batpoop rhetoric?
The suit can keep its knives bonus too if you're afraid that they'll somehow be a plague of op scouts with knives.
The reason I personally don't care if they get buffed in this way is b/c it doesn't matter.
if a scout has the drop on you with knives - you are ded
Baseless emotional arguments? Such as bringing views on communism, religion, and racism to somehow show that buffing nova knives is going to flatten the scouts and make them all the same?
Not exactly sure where you were going with your point.
"Anti- general argument"? - So I should just be "general" and go along with everyone else?
Wtf does that mean?
Maybe I'd advise you to move to North Korea and advise you to pretend that Kim Jon is God even though you have a Jr science kit
in your basement where you experiment with cats to find out if they are both living and dead
& Do you know what communism is?
Even if they gave the knife bonus to all the scouts and let's go further - everysuit in the game -this would still not be communism
Communism would be saying the Gal, Amarr, and cal scouts are too strong and unfair to the minmatar.
Therefore we are REMOVING all other scouts except minmatar from the game. See, one scout. One toothbrush, one toothpaste , one news channel. That's communism
But I guess elitest DB's that like to run their mouths have their place in society right?
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 19:13:00 -
[61] - Quote
DDx77 wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:DDx77 wrote:Yes the min scout needs a buff like this big time. Not at all true. So basically the anti-general nova knife buff argument is "nuuuu we cants be scoutly bustards with minscout nks, it'll lose the flavour of the suit." I mean if you like pathogenic reasoning like this that favors individual preference over general game balance, I'd advise you to agree. I'd advise you to become a communist, I'd advise you to believe religion over science, I'd advise you to become an extremist for that religion, I'd advise you to hate people for their race. Baseless emotional arguments/ideas have their place is society right? Response that is based in misunderstanding
I buffing all scouts in terms of dampening would be great, but that doesn't mean the minmatar scout should be the only infantry that can use knives viably.
I played both now only minscout because lolE-war. It would balance the scales because it's fundamentally imbalanced that only one suit is able to use a specific weapon effectively.
I wouldn't care what bonus the suit got as long as it didn't render the knives OP. Actually I almost always avoid getting knifed by a sneaky scout.
You're an idiot, a general nova knife buff would mean that nova knifes would no longer be only effective on min scouts.
I described all the other baseless emotional arguments and ideas because they all have one thing in common; they're all run by idealistic, narcissists that believe in things without actual reasoning. I made the connection to communism because it's an economic system that has never worked in favor of anyone except tyrants. Nova knifes should not be limited to only ones suit it's a beyond idiotic idea, like communism.
You don't anything about the socio-economic idealism of communism if that's you're description of it.
To reiterate, you're an idiot.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Arirana
Negative-Feedback.
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 05:48:00 -
[62] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Interestingly I made almost the exact same proposal in the barbershop a while back.
A potential alternative Gallente scout bonus would be to cloak duration/recharge. Or give Caldari the cloak bonus and Galente scan range, if you want to be more racially aligned.
There are issues however. Firstly there is the danger of making the Minmatar scout overpowered. Also, whilst I like the idea of making knives more viable on other suits, removing the knife bonus to Min scouts potentially loses the flavour and heart of the suit. Knives are part of a Min scout's identity. Losing the bonus, even if knife damage was buffed generally, would remove that identity.
I feel that the min scout won't be losing it's heart, rather it will be sharing it with everyone, and the gal and cal scouts will be sharing its stealth with it and the amarr scout.
I really like your idea for the bonuses for the cal and gal scouts, I'll be adding that to the post until I see a better one, and giving credit to you of course.
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 06:15:00 -
[63] - Quote
Arirana wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Interestingly I made almost the exact same proposal in the barbershop a while back.
A potential alternative Gallente scout bonus would be to cloak duration/recharge. Or give Caldari the cloak bonus and Galente scan range, if you want to be more racially aligned.
There are issues however. Firstly there is the danger of making the Minmatar scout overpowered. Also, whilst I like the idea of making knives more viable on other suits, removing the knife bonus to Min scouts potentially loses the flavour and heart of the suit. Knives are part of a Min scout's identity. Losing the bonus, even if knife damage was buffed generally, would remove that identity. I feel that the min scout won't be losing it's heart, rather it will be sharing it with everyone, and the gal and cal scouts will be sharing its stealth with it and the amarr scout. I really like your idea for the bonuses for the cal and gal scouts, I'll be adding that to the post until I see a better one, and giving credit to you of course.
But if you share it's heart with everyone, then there is no need to run it instead of the others...
If you can knife as good or better in other suits, who may have more HP, more LS for KinCats, CBs, Armor, and CDs, why bother with the Minmatar?
This isn't a buff to Minjas.... not at all. No one cares about precision, that is why it is such a crap bonus, and Gal Scouts won't bother. They can just throw some PG enh to supplement KinCats, etc.
This would be a buff to Amarr and Gal Scouts (who now get to keep their bonus, which means they can always dampen as well as a Minja AND have an extra LS to play with, PLUS get the Knife bonus for no reason).
AND you would be making Assault Knifers possible... Yeah, those guys don't have enough things that make them OP with all their speed, extra slots, and HP that we now have to worry about Assaults with scout like speed, and profile, with way more HP.
This would be no less messed up than allowing everyone to carry an HMG....
TL;DR Booooo!!! Don't kill the Minja by stealing our knife bonus!!!
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 06:27:00 -
[64] - Quote
If knives were equally good on a GalScout, there'd be precisely zero reason to run a MinScout. Hack and Slash has always been the MinScout's MO; I don't see any good reason to strip away that identity. The Scout class attained role parity between HF Charlie and Uprising 1.10; it is absolutely possible that role parity could again be achieved with the Minja's identity left intact.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Arirana
Negative-Feedback.
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 06:30:00 -
[65] - Quote
I think you guys are forgetting the fact that the min scout still has a speed hack bonus, which becomes more useful with the newly added stealth.
And like I said, Nova Knives are a Caldari weapon. The Minmatar scout's identity had no business being best at using a caldari weapon in the first place, its just a rollover mistake from the previous less competent devs that unfortunately is being held onto like like a bald guy wears a combover and claims he has a full head of hair.
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 06:35:00 -
[66] - Quote
Arirana wrote:I think you guys are forgetting the fact that the min scout still has a speed hack bonus, which becomes more useful with the newly added stealth.
You could accomplish the same goal -- and leave all else intact -- by improving cloak's active damp bonus.
It is now 0-5-10. I believe we could safely make it 5-10-15 or even 10-15-20 without creating new imbalance.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 06:48:00 -
[67] - Quote
Arirana wrote:I think you guys are forgetting the fact that the min scout still has a speed hack bonus, which becomes more useful with the newly added stealth.
And like I said, Nova Knives are a Caldari weapon. The Minmatar scout's identity had no business being best at using a caldari weapon in the first place, its just a rollover mistake from the previous less competent devs that unfortunately is being held onto like like a bald guy wears a combover and claims he has a full head of hair.
Why skill into a whole suit just to speed hack?
Get a Gal Scout and stack it with 4 CBs and you'll be close enough not to know the difference.
For as many people that have huge amounts of SP and are willing to respec, they could easily just ditch the Min Scout, keep their Gal Scout, and have a scout close enough to a Minja for it not to matter.
They can stack KCs for speed, and CBs for hacks.
The ONLY thing they can't stick a mod on for is stamina regen, which can be negated by just throwing on a Cardiac Reg and having a big enough stamina pool not to matter.
Its not unlike where the Amarr are now. They are good scouts, but pretty much anything they can do, Gals can do better, and since the Precision bonus is now crap like I said earlier, there is no reason to run them other than being the Empress' cuckhold.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 07:14:00 -
[68] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:
Why skill into a whole suit just to speed hack?
I did it and have absolutely no regrets. I definitely didn't do it for the knife bonus, or to be a pretentious imbecile on the forums about being a scout. I did it because speed hacks are useful in objective games, and I didn't want to have to use all my tank to get a good hack out.
One Eyed King wrote:
Get a Gal Scout and stack it with 4 CBs and you'll be close enough not to know the difference.
Everything is about increments in this game I can say the same thing about fitting optimization, cpu bonuses, pg bonuses, damage bonuses. Why aren't complaining about those 3%-5%
One Eyed King wrote:
For as many people that have huge amounts of SP and are willing to respec, they could easily just ditch the Min Scout, keep their Gal Scout, and have a scout close enough to a Minja for it not to matter.
They can stack KCs for speed, and CBs for hacks.
The ONLY thing they can't stick a mod on for is stamina regen, which can be negated by just throwing on a Cardiac Reg and having a big enough stamina pool not to matter.
There are way too many differences between a gal scout and min scout for there to be an overlap. Different tank, different slot layout, different bonus, different stats. If you honestly think that the knifing bonus is the only thing keeping the minmmatar scout the highest rated scout, you're beyond detached from the game.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Arirana
Negative-Feedback.
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 07:49:00 -
[69] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:
Why skill into a whole suit just to speed hack?
Get a Gal Scout and stack it with 4 CBs and you'll be close enough not to know the difference.
For as many people that have huge amounts of SP and are willing to respec, they could easily just ditch the Min Scout, keep their Gal Scout, and have a scout close enough to a Minja for it not to matter.
They can stack KCs for speed, and CBs for hacks.
The ONLY thing they can't stick a mod on for is stamina regen, which can be negated by just throwing on a Cardiac Reg and having a big enough stamina pool not to matter.
Its not unlike where the Amarr are now. They are good scouts, but pretty much anything they can do, Gals can do better, and since the Precision bonus is now crap like I said earlier, there is no reason to run them other than being the Empress' cuckhold.
Your post has convinced me that the speed hack bonus is not enough, but minmatar racial bonus to cal knives still cannot be justified. I think an extra 5% melee speed bonus per level on top of the hacking speed bonus would be both inline with racial lore and enough to make it worth it. It will become the only scout that doesn't have to decloak to kill.
I have also revised my suggestion for the amarr scout bonus please read it I value your opinion,
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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maybe deadcatz
Horizons' Edge
No Context
104
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Posted - 2015.06.13 07:52:00 -
[70] - Quote
Arirana wrote:One Eyed King wrote:
Why skill into a whole suit just to speed hack?
Get a Gal Scout and stack it with 4 CBs and you'll be close enough not to know the difference.
For as many people that have huge amounts of SP and are willing to respec, they could easily just ditch the Min Scout, keep their Gal Scout, and have a scout close enough to a Minja for it not to matter.
They can stack KCs for speed, and CBs for hacks.
The ONLY thing they can't stick a mod on for is stamina regen, which can be negated by just throwing on a Cardiac Reg and having a big enough stamina pool not to matter.
Its not unlike where the Amarr are now. They are good scouts, but pretty much anything they can do, Gals can do better, and since the Precision bonus is now crap like I said earlier, there is no reason to run them other than being the Empress' cuckhold.
Your post has convinced me that the speed hack bonus is not enough, but minmatar racial bonus to cal knives still cannot be justified. I think an extra 5% melee speed bonus per level would be both inline with racial lore and and more than enough to make it worth it. It will become the only scout that doesn't have to decloak to kill.
Leave the scouts alone. Worry about jumping mass driver minspammers
Ewar? What's that? Some kind of fancy new way of being lazy? Learn how to use your eyes and ears you maggots.
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Arirana
Negative-Feedback.
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 07:53:00 -
[71] - Quote
maybe deadcatz wrote:
Leave the scouts alone. Worry about jumping mass driver minspammers
Unfortunately for your post this is a thread about scouts, you want a jump mod QQ thread go make one.
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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maybe deadcatz
Horizons' Edge
No Context
104
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Posted - 2015.06.13 07:54:00 -
[72] - Quote
Arirana wrote:maybe deadcatz wrote:
Leave the scouts alone. Worry about jumping mass driver minspammers
Unfortunately for your post this is a thread about scouts, you want a jump mod QQ thread go make one.
Id like to but theres no point. Scrubs will defend their op crap and exploits.
Ewar? What's that? Some kind of fancy new way of being lazy? Learn how to use your eyes and ears you maggots.
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GRIM GEAR
Nos Nothi
493
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Posted - 2015.06.13 08:00:00 -
[73] - Quote
I want to add that before Chromosome every single suit had Nova knives for their melee attack...... food for thought.....
I is not fat.....
Although someone mentioned Eve lore stating that Nova Knives are indeed Caldari; we are mercenaries are we not? do we not salvage the gear of the fallen?
Cup of tea anyone?
I came here to mingle can you hear that jingle that would be me lingle.
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 08:01:00 -
[74] - Quote
Arirana wrote:The Minmatar Scout's racial bonus will become a 5% bonus to hack and melee speed per level.
A melee speed bonus wouldn't mirror a certain glitch that a certain someone abused would it?
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Arirana
Negative-Feedback.
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 08:05:00 -
[75] - Quote
maybe deadcatz wrote:Arirana wrote:maybe deadcatz wrote:
Leave the scouts alone. Worry about jumping mass driver minspammers
Unfortunately for your post this is a thread about scouts, you want a jump mod QQ thread go make one. Id like to but theres no point. Scrubs will defend their op crap and exploits.
Alright I'll humor you. When someone jumps at least as high and as fast as a min assault suit with 2 jump mods or more, the air resistance should make a person put their gun away until they begin falling back down. As a person begins falling back down it should be harder to look down due to the air resistance once again, making dropsuit aerial combat harder and turn jump mods into a tactical sacrifice of offense for defense, while keeping its maneuverability for capturing higher ground.
Another thing I feel jump mods should do is reduce fall damage. Legs that make you jump that high become very powerful shock absorbents, due to its raw strength.
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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Arirana
Negative-Feedback.
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 08:08:00 -
[76] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Arirana wrote:The Minmatar Scout's racial bonus will become a 5% bonus to hack and melee speed per level. A melee speed bonus wouldn't mirror a certain glitch that a certain someone abused would it?
Oh yeah I know for a fact that CCP is going to break it if they implement it and accidentally reintroduce the almighty melee glitch. That was my plan all along.
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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maybe deadcatz
Horizons' Edge
No Context
105
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Posted - 2015.06.13 08:10:00 -
[77] - Quote
Arirana wrote:maybe deadcatz wrote:Arirana wrote:maybe deadcatz wrote:
Leave the scouts alone. Worry about jumping mass driver minspammers
Unfortunately for your post this is a thread about scouts, you want a jump mod QQ thread go make one. Id like to but theres no point. Scrubs will defend their op crap and exploits. Alright I'll humor you. When someone jumps at least as high and as fast as a min assault suit with 2 jump mods or more, the air resistance should make a person put their gun away until they begin falling back down. As a person begins falling back down it should be harder to look down due to the air resistance once again, making dropsuit aerial combat harder and turn jump mods into a tactical sacrifice of offense for defense, while keeping its maneuverability for capturing higher ground. Another thing I feel jump mods should do is reduce fall damage. Legs that make you jump that high become very powerful shock absorbents, due to its raw strength.
Lets humor YOU. Too bad. The bonuses will stay the same most likely. You are attemtping to think too much in a game that is full of lag and exploits
Ewar? What's that? Some kind of fancy new way of being lazy? Learn how to use your eyes and ears you maggots.
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Arirana
Negative-Feedback.
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 08:11:00 -
[78] - Quote
maybe deadcatz wrote:
Lets humor YOU. Too bad. The bonuses will stay the same most likely. You are attemtping to think too much in a game that is full of lag and exploits
You're mistaken. They exist because there is not enough thinking.
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
980
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Posted - 2015.06.13 08:44:00 -
[79] - Quote
There would be plenty of reasons to use nova knives on a Min scout. With the damp bonus you could happily run two kincats and a damp in your low slots and be as fast and dampened as anyone. The Min scout's natural speed and stamina make it great for knifing.
It's just that they might lose some flavour being known as "that suit which hacks" rather than "that suit which knifes". Although hacking is already the Min scout's primary identity in PC. |
Arirana
Negative-Feedback.
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 08:49:00 -
[80] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:There would be plenty of reasons to use nova knives on a Min scout. With the damp bonus you could happily run two kincats and a damp in your low slots and be as fast and dampened as anyone. The Min scout's natural speed and stamina make it great for knifing.
It's just that they might lose some flavour being known as "that suit which hacks" rather than "that suit which knifes". Although hacking is already the Min scout's primary identity in PC.
Yes I agree, I made major edits to the OP btw I ask that you read them, I value your feedback.
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
980
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Posted - 2015.06.13 09:10:00 -
[81] - Quote
Arirana wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:There would be plenty of reasons to use nova knives on a Min scout. With the damp bonus you could happily run two kincats and a damp in your low slots and be as fast and dampened as anyone. The Min scout's natural speed and stamina make it great for knifing.
It's just that they might lose some flavour being known as "that suit which hacks" rather than "that suit which knifes". Although hacking is already the Min scout's primary identity in PC. Yes I agree, I made major edits to the OP btw I ask that you read them, I value your feedback.
I like the ideas. The only reservation I have is that jamming isn't a mechanic in Dust, so it's unlikely to be implemented.
I agree that Gallente would need an improved scanning bonus. Both range and precision at the same time can be problematic, however.
A popular bonus for Amarr is to biotics. Apparently fast Amarr ships in Eve are very fast. Even though most are slow.
It sounds like ECM is roughly similar to stealth. The only stealth mechanics in Dust are dampeners and cloaks. So I feel an extra cloak bonus for Caldari would be good for them, rather than scan range.
So, assuming jamming mechanics aren't brought in, I'd go with this:
+25% nova knife damage.
Scout bonus: -15% cloak fitting per level. -3% profile per level.
Min bonus: +5% hack speed per level.
Amarr bonus: +5% biotic module efficiency per level.
Gal bonus: +5% scan precision per level.
Cal bonus: +5% cloak duration and recharge per level. |
CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
Rise Of Legion.
3
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Posted - 2015.06.13 11:38:00 -
[82] - Quote
One of the most thought out and interesting ideas I have read regarding scouts for quite some time.
+1
"Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
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CUSE TOWN333
0uter.Heaven
2
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Posted - 2015.06.13 12:32:00 -
[83] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Ares 514 wrote:Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Oh and btw, in the OP you mentioned that the Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers hacks as fast as a Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker, but that's not true. A Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker hacks faster than a Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers. Of topic. What do you use for a speed hacker in PC? I tried all code breakers a while back but I was scanned to hell and had a hard time most of the time. I use a Minja. Usually it's not about stealth-hacks, but more about getting clinch-hacks whilst your team holds the reds off of the point for a few precious seconds. It usually doesn't matter if you're scanned in this situation because you're not trying for stealth and are relying on your teammates for protection. So yes, I use all Codebreakers. I find that they all make a significant difference. Yeah, that was my thought when I made the fit. I guess I need better coordination/support from my teammates. 2 damps and one codebreaker work well in situations were your teamates aren't real close to the letter your trying to take but its best to hunt the reddot guarding the letter before the hack. triple codebreaker for when fighting and chaos around the letter allows you to run in and YoLo clutch hack.
CBM
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Scheneighnay McBob
Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary
7
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Posted - 2015.06.13 13:03:00 -
[84] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:I stopped taking you seriously once you suggested using kincats with knives. I run KinCats on all my knifing fits. Am I doing it wrong?
Every scout already has all the speed they need to use knives.
If you feel the need to add kincats, you're playing them too recklessly.
Rule 34.6.1: every parody will have a crossover
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
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Posted - 2015.06.13 14:08:00 -
[85] - Quote
You are inferring a lot of things that are incorrect about the races.
So to address your initial statement about the nova knives and "waaah its wrong for minmatar to use them"... Yes thje caldari make them, we also make a SMG for the minmatar. Caldari are rather mercantile and the ISHUKONE corporation are in fact rather sympathetic to the minmatar - handing over 'Insorum' to the Minmatar republic for free (Insorum is the permanent cure to a disease/toxin the amarr widely use to control their slaves. As it is the nova knife is a completely viable weapon almost all scouts the damage bonus the minmatar gets simultaneously does and doesn't change the weapons interactions.
Now to address the actual racial combat philosophies. Minmatar = skirmish warfare. Caldari = Siege warfare. Gallente = Information warfare. Amarr = Armored warfare.
The minmatar are not concerned in ANY MANNER with actual stealth on their scouts as a scout they do want to be 'stealthy'... but not stealthy compared to other scouts, what they are concerned with however is speed; which is why they move fast, have a nice highly lethal knife for people that don't see them and a hack bonus that when augmented by a single complex codebreaker causes them to hack at a speed of about 2 units... to most other dropsuits 1.0-1.2. The minmatar scout could be summed up as a 'subverter/assassin' There is little that the minmatar will not do if desperation pushes them towards it, and it just so happens that knives are cheap and adaptable and reliable one of two traits that minmatar favor (the other being 'versatility'). It's why they haven't bothered to advance past using conventionally 'primitive' firearms, the minmatar usually like low-tech or practical solutions to problems.
The Amarr scout is also not concerned in any manner with actual stealth - but for entirely different reasons than the minmatar. Amarr love their pomp and ceremony, and ideally they love visibly seeing the fear in their opponents when bringing the wrath of god down upon them. The amarr design of scout is best summed up as a "Hunter-Killer"... which incidentally has real-world parallels within armored warfare doctrines. They are a very durable scout with the ability to cover a lot of distance and provide vision to their more heavily armored counterparts (assaults, sentinels and commandos) while still (in theory) being able to effectively detect, engage and kill other scouts. A large part of the amarr doctrine is about breaking the will of their opponents and they prize efficiency and discipline highly.
The Caldari warfare doctrine is siege warfare and oh boy does their scout fit it. First off of all the scouts the caldari has by far the most ability to re-engage and regenerate hp (serious, 50hp/sec and 3/4s delays... some races would kill for that ability to recover HP on their assaults and sentinels) yes they only get about ~400 hp but they can hit you over and over and over making them easily one of the most combat oriented scouts. Thanks to their range bonuses, if they fit a single adv or better precision amp they have the ability to safely pick their engagements against bigger 'scarier' things like assaults due to seeing them at 45m, this also allows them to provide some data to their allies as well (who like to take a position and hold it). The dampening bonus is essentially how electronic countermeasures play out in dust - you cannot act on me while I act on you, it also provides the common racial parallel with the gallente that caldari have. These guys are probably in the truest sense 'scouts'. The caldari prize efficiency and predatory instinct, this is well represented by the calscout being the most 'fighty'.
The Gallente warfare doctrine is Information warfare and their scout is an excellent representation. In a word it could be called an infiltrator or a ghost. Its dampening bonus actively denies opponents information, while its scanning bonus also helps it glean vital information. There's not a huge amount to say here... but as a lore nugget I'll say that the gallente tend to favor high tech solutions to problems.
And finally... Why are you trying to fix a scout system that isn't broken?
Apocalyptic Destroyerr wrote:I always wondered why the Minmitrash got bonuses to the Swarms and Novaknives.. Doesn't make a damn sense at all.
They're not supposed to get a bonus to swarms... it has to do with how damage is flagged in this game [weapongroup$lightexplosive] rather than something like [weapongroup$minmatar] or whatever. The min commando is flagged to have a bonus to projectile and explosives (covering combat rifle and mass driver) but it just so happens that the swarm is flagged as explosive... which has caused idiots fotm chasers to flock to the mincom in droves
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 14:13:00 -
[86] - Quote
Your proposal is getting better; in the spirit of helping:
1) We're on the same page on this point, but I would highly recommend a class-wide efficacy bonus to profile dampeners instead of a class-wide base reduction to scan profile. There was a time when Scouts could stack plates and still beat scans; that wasn't a good time for balance. An efficacy bonus would keep Scouts in damps and, more importantly, would keep frontal slayers away from Assault Lite. For whatever it's worth, the idea of efficacy bonuses previously piqued Rattati's interest.
2) Knives are plenty viable on frames other than MinScout; they simply shine when run on a MinScout. I still see no reason to retire the hack-and-slash archetype; it is a good, fun archetype to have. I understand that Nova Knives are made by Caldari and employ Gallente tech, but these are inadequate reasons (in my opinion) to take such drastic measures. If you must, change the name and description of Nova Knives and add some rust to their color scheme.
3) For AM Scouts, would counter-propose a bonus to biotic efficacy. A "biotic scout" would be a fun Scout to run, and might even prove viable. It wouldn't get out-of-hand thanks to a low base speed and a limited number of high slots.
4) For CA Scouts, would counter-propose a partial reduction to cloakblind effect. This would make for an infiltration/recon unit with long-range, low-intensity scans and would be in keeping with lore. Comparatively strong performance at longer range is the Caldari calling card. Plus, Caldari manufacture cloak, so it stands to reason that their stealth units would get somewhat better mileage out of it.
5) For GA Scouts, would counter-propose an efficacy bonus to precision enhancers. This would make for an infiltration/recon unit with low-range, high-intensity scans. If my understanding is correct, comparatively strong performance at close range is in keeping with Gallente design.
* My two cents.
TL;DR
1) Scout Class Bonus: +15% cloak fitting reduction, +8% profile dampener efficacy
2) MN Scout Racial Bonus: Unchanged
3) AM Scout Racial Bonus: +10% base stamina, +5% biotic module efficacy
4) CA Scout Racial Bonus: +10% base scan range, -10% cloakblind effect
5) GA Scout Racial Bonus: +5% base scan range, +15% precision enhancer efficacy
Here are the specific numbers:
Google Doc
Looking forward to your thoughts.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
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Posted - 2015.06.13 14:19:00 -
[87] - Quote
Nachos wrote:Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Oh and btw, in the OP you mentioned that the Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers hacks as fast as a Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker, but that's not true. A Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker hacks faster than a Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers. they hack equally as fast...min scout bonus is 25%+ cmp codebreaker which brings it to 50% gal scout gets 2 x 25% bonuses because codebreakers have no stacking penalties
All percentile mods aside from the jump speed on myo's have stacking penalties, all of them. Minscouts also hack at 1.15 units base compared to the galscouts 1.10 base.
Then the minscouts 1.15 base gets increased by 25% from the hacking skill (or the min scout 5 skill, bonuses always apply highest to lowest, unpenalized to penalized).
So 1.15(base speed) * 1.25(hacking 5) * 1.25(minscout 5) * 1.25(complex codebreaker, any codebreakers after this would be penalized) = 2.24609375
~1.8 units base for a minscout with hacking 5 and minscout 5. ~2.25 units with a single hack mod
1.10(base speed) * 1.25(codebreaker #1) * 1.25 * [1.25*.87=1.2175](penalized codebreaker) = 1.375
Galscout with hacking 5 and no codebreaker = 1.375 units. with 2 codebreakers the galscout is at 2.09ish speed.
You're thinking that mods are additive when they're multiplicative.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 14:20:00 -
[88] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:2) Knives are plenty viable on frames other than MinScout; they simply shine when run on a MinScout. I still see no reason to retire the hack-and-slash archetype; it is a good, fun archetype to have.
Completely false statement. I know it to be true that using knives on anything other than a min scout is a joke. Literally everyone gawks at anyone in game who even tries to put knives on a heavy, assault, and most scouts. You people are so damn detached from the game it really bugs me seeing you nerds on these forums amid the few that actually play it.
Literally the bronies of the community.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 14:24:00 -
[89] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:2) Knives are plenty viable on frames other than MinScout; they simply shine when run on a MinScout. I still see no reason to retire the hack-and-slash archetype; it is a good, fun archetype to have. Completely false statement. I know it to be true that using knives on anything other than a min scout is a joke. Literally everyone gawks at anyone in game who even tries to put knives on a heavy, assault, and most scouts. You people are so damn detached from the game it really bugs me seeing you nerds on these forums amid the few that actually play it. Literally the bronies of the community.
I've killed thousands of mercs with knives on suits other than my MinScout. I run Knives on my CalScout with an ARR; it's a decent loadout; you should try it sometime. I've run knives on my GalScout as well off and on for the past couple years; it isn't bad when paired with AR, Bolt or SMG.
PS: I still play, by the way. Pushing 90M SP, and still in the top 100 in global kills (or very close to it).
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 14:33:00 -
[90] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:2) Knives are plenty viable on frames other than MinScout; they simply shine when run on a MinScout. I still see no reason to retire the hack-and-slash archetype; it is a good, fun archetype to have. Completely false statement. I know it to be true that using knives on anything other than a min scout is a joke. Literally everyone gawks at anyone in game who even tries to put knives on a heavy, assault, and most scouts. You people are so damn detached from the game it really bugs me seeing you nerds on these forums amid the few that actually play it. Literally the bronies of the community.
Oh they're viable on other frames gustavo... just not non-scout frames (aside from the incredibly stupid shotgun / knife min assaults that have popped up recently). I'm relatively okay with this, but I do get really annoyed with how religiously scouts guard the shotgun: rather than having it be a decent 'option' for most/all suits in short range fights, it is relegated strictly to the hands of the scout which is the only suit that has the combination of footspeed and dampening required to make it work.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 14:39:00 -
[91] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
I've killed thousands of mercs with knives on suits other than my MinScout. I run Knives on my CalScout with an ARR; it's a decent loadout; you should try it sometime. I've run knives on my GalScout as well off and on for the past couple years; it isn't bad when paired with AR, Bolt or SMG.
PS: I still play, by the way, though admittedly not as much as I'd like to. Pushing 90M SP and still in the top 100 in global kills (or very close to it).
Scouts, not heavies, not assaults, not logies, not amarr scout. I guess viable on most other frames is right, you know the 3/16 ratio really says it all. "Totally balanced for every suit to enjoy." Goodness I'm gonna puke at the ignorance in this statement, look buddy I don't care about your dumb fits, I know you don't play this game enough if you honestly perpetuate the (stupid) idea that the min scout(or scouts whatever you're suggesting) should be the only suit to use nova knifes.
If you do play the game, and are in fact pushing 90 million sp then run it on an assault, you have to be doing something with all that sp right? I doubt it all went into cores and "scutly bustardnes prof 69."
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 14:48:00 -
[92] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:[
Oh they're viable on other frames gustavo... just not non-scout frames (aside from the incredibly stupid shotgun / knife min assaults that have popped up recently). I'm relatively okay with this, but I do get really annoyed with how religiously scouts guard the shotgun: rather than having it be a decent 'option' for most/all suits in short range fights, it is relegated strictly to the hands of the scout which is the only suit that has the combination of footspeed and dampening required to make it work.
I'm actually fine with the shotgun on my assault gk.0, lord knows I won't run it on my gal scout anymore. Of course it's awful outside the city maps, but nova knives are completely worthless on other frames. Even the fast running min assault with nova knifes are hilariously dumb joke fits.
Dampening isn't really needed anymore, who needs it when you're running at almost 9 m/s with a scan range of 30 m and 700 hp. One precision enhancer and I can see most fits, and the ones I can't see get screwed over because they don't have the hp to compensate, this is all on my gal assault.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 15:24:00 -
[93] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
I've killed thousands of mercs with knives on suits other than my MinScout. I run Knives on my CalScout with an ARR; it's a decent loadout; you should try it sometime. I've run knives on my GalScout as well off and on for the past couple years; it isn't bad when paired with AR, Bolt or SMG.
PS: I still play, by the way, though admittedly not as much as I'd like to. Pushing 90M SP and still in the top 100 in global kills (or very close to it).
Scouts, not heavies, not assaults, not logies, not amarr scout. I guess viable on most other frames is right, you know the 3/16 ratio really says it all. "Totally balanced for every suit to enjoy." Goodness I'm gonna puke at the ignorance in this statement, look buddy I don't care about your dumb fits, I know you don't play this game enough if you honestly perpetuate the (stupid) idea that the min scout(or scouts whatever you're suggesting) should be the only suit to use nova knifes. If you do play the game, and are in fact pushing 90 million sp then run it on an assault, you have to be doing something with all that sp right? I doubt it all went into cores and "scutly bustardnes prof 69."
I do hope you'll be able to put away your epeen and try to focus on the topic at hand. Not sure why you're keen on pounding chest; I've well over twice your kills, well over twice your KDR, and I was running Scout suits long before you found your way to the frame while chasing FoTM. If you're able to calm yourself down and pay attention, friend, there is a good chance you might learn something.
Back on Topic:
Nova Knives on a MinScout provide alpha sufficient to insta-gank almost any unit in the game. The fact that MinScouts are extremely squishy and easier to scan than GA/CA Scouts provide mechanical counterbalance to this potent alpha strike. If this same alpha potential could be wielded by higher-hitpoint units, knives would likely become OP. If this same alpha potential were wielded by CA and GA Scouts -- who can duck competitive scans with only one damp -- knives would likely become OP.
Rattati has made it clear that he wishes for all reasonable playstyles to be competitively viable. Speed and stealth-oriented, low-HP playstyles are reasonable playstyles, and the only way that these can compete is through high-risk, high-reward alpha takedown. If high-alpha weaponry is wielded just as effectively by high-HP loadouts, low-HP loadouts become that much less competitive.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Dzago Sevatarion
DUST University
Ivy League
21
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Posted - 2015.06.13 15:36:00 -
[94] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:So to address your initial statement about the nova knives and "waaah its wrong for minmatar to use them"... Yes thje caldari make them, we also make a SMG for the minmatar. Caldari are rather mercantile and the ISHUKONE corporation are in fact rather sympathetic to the minmatar - handing over 'Insorum' to the Minmatar republic for free (Insorum is the permanent cure to a disease/toxin the amarr widely use to control their slaves.
Dr. Ullia Hnolku gave away the cure on his own.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Year_YC107 |
gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 16:30:00 -
[95] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
I do hope you'll be able to put away your epeen and try to focus on the topic at hand. Not sure why you're keen on pounding chest; I've well over twice your kills, well over twice your KDR, and I was running Scout suits long before you found your way to the frame while chasing FoTM. If you're able to calm yourself down and pay attention, friend, there is a good chance you might learn something.
Whose alt is this? How do you only have 23 kills? Don't tell me this is seriously someone's main lol. I don't run fotm, I'm a semi-loyal gallente loyalist that just so happens to also be an omni-soldier. K/d and kills mean shite to me. Playing the game while being on the forums is one of the few things I commend.
Adipem Nothi wrote:
Nova Knives on a MinScout provide alpha sufficient to insta-gank almost any unit in the game. The fact that MinScouts are extremely squishy and easier to scan than GA/CA Scouts provide mechanical counterbalance to this potent alpha strike. If this same alpha potential could be wielded by higher-hitpoint units, the risk of knifing would decline and the reward would hold constant; knives would likely become OP. Further, if this same alpha potential were wielded by CA and GA Scouts -- who can duck competitive scans with only one damp -- knives would likely become OP.
Hp and strafe speed of the minmatar scout is the biggest factor in their survivability which is still sizable. There is absolutely no way that nova knives would become OP because of how little range they cover compared to the other sidearms. If they sacrifice their tank for dampening of course they deserve to reap the rewards. Scouts aren't supposed to be weapons specialists, it's made clear by their bonuses.
Adipem Nothi wrote:
Rattati has made it clear that he wishes for all reasonable playstyles to be competitively viable. Speed and stealth-oriented, low-HP playstyles are reasonable playstyles, and the only way that these can compete is through high-risk, high-reward alpha takedown. If high-alpha weaponry is wielded just as effectively by high-HP loadouts, low-HP loadouts become that much less competitive.
Why can't medium frames and heavy frames have low hp playstyles? Why do knives have to be restricted to low hp playstyles? I mean in all honesty I haven't seen any low hp suit being competitive anymore, so I think you have a bit of a skewed view of "what Rattati wants," but that's beside the point. I still don't see good reason to disallow nova knives to be viable on regular suits since they're just like every other sidearm except they gimp suits to a 5 meter range. In fact with that in mind, I don't see a reason why they shouldn't be viable on assaults, heavies, and logies.
High hp loadouts normally mean low speed(with the exclusion of the assault anomalies) so even if the knives were viable on them they still would not be viable, except in very specific cqc fights. You're under the assumption that fitting nova knives means that one will actively search specifically for knife kills. They're a sidearm just like every other sidearm in the game, they have advantages and disadvantages, and with this one in particular the disadvantages outweigh the benefits.
A damage buff and minmatar rework would definitely allow knives to be viable on other suits, but in no way impede the ability of the current knife meta to use them, and definitely allow for low hp fits to flourish.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.06.13 16:36:00 -
[96] - Quote
Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:DR DEESE NUTS wrote:Lol. Nova knives are plasma and cqc oriented. They are obviously Gallente. Don't know why people think there Caldari. It's literally the opposite of the Caldari doctrine which shoot from long range and make every shot count. Oppose to Gallente which get in close and *****` slap them with loads of damage. I assumed that the Caldari made Nova Knives to be their last resort in a forced CQC situation. I'm also pretty sure that I read somewhere on EVElopedia that the art of knife combat has a special Caldari name, and mastery of which is a requirement for every Commander - or something. They're 100% Caldari.
Maybe for some racial distinction we could give Caldari knives lower melee damage but also the ability to be thrown.
Minmatar knives would be all-rounders, more melee damage than Cal but less throw range.
Gallente/Amarr knives strong melee but no throw. Distinguish then through their damage profiles, Amarr weighted to shields and Gal weighted to armor.
Anyway this is off-topic, just some ideas, on-topic post follows.
PSN: RationalSpark
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 16:51:00 -
[97] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
1. Hp and strafe speed of the minmatar scout is the biggest factor in their survivability which is still sizable.
2. There is absolutely no way that nova knives would become OP because of how little range they cover compared to the other sidearms.
3. Scouts aren't supposed to be weapons specialists, it's made clear by their bonuses.
4. Why can't medium frames and heavy frames have low hp playstyles?
5. I mean in all honesty I haven't seen any low hp suit being competitive anymore, so I think you have a bit of a skewed view of "what Rattati wants," but that's beside the point.
6. A damage buff and minmatar rework would definitely allow knives to be viable on other suits, but in no way impede the ability of the current knife meta to use them, and definitely allow for low hp fits to flourish.
1. It is a fact that MinScout kill/spawn efficiency is currently among the lowest in the game.
2. Prior to falloff, Shotgun efficiency was among the highest of all light weapons despite its severely limited optimal range.
3. The MinScout's racial bonus to Knives is a major talking point in this thread.
4. Because the Base HP of Assault, Commando and Heavy base preclude them from being low-HP units.
5. I seriously doubt that Rattati is happy with the state of King HP. Low-HP playstyles have every right to be competitively viable; the fact that they presently are not is a balance issue. As we speak, there's an open Dev thread on the subject (Speed/eHP Curve).
6. I think it probable that GalScout and CalScout knifers would become overpowered if granted the MinScout's present alpha; their slot configs and racial bonuses permit them to dampen and simultaneously maintain comparatively decent HP. Giving these units better alpha potential would introduce new imbalance.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
989
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Posted - 2015.06.13 17:02:00 -
[98] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:
The minmatar are not concerned in ANY MANNER with actual stealth on their scouts
The Amarr scout is also not concerned in any manner with actual stealth
Thanks for your insights into racial combat doctrines. I just take issue with these two statements.
With the practicalities of using scouts in Dust, there is effectively no reason to use a scout without stealth, with the possible exception of initial speed deploys.
The hp sacrifice a scout makes compared to assaults is far too much to enable a scout to be viable without being off radar, regardless of speed. Due to binary nature of stealth (the enemy either know where you are or don't) there is no room for non-stealth scouts, when translating combat doctrines from EVE to Dust. All scouts must be stealthy. Cloaks are a potential variable, but sufficient dampening is a necessity for all scouts.
The speed of a Minmatar scout is worthless if it appears on Tac-net.
This is one of the major problems with the current scout bonuses. It just doesn't work well if some scouts have lower profiles than others. It's very difficult to balance, as we have seen, either some scouts are too easily damped, or some are too easily scanned.
It may also be relevant that, originally, both Minmatar and Gallente scouts had a bonus to dampening.
Combat doctrines should be translated from EVE as much as is reasonable, without any scout sacrificing dampening. The combination of speed (mobility) and stealth, for the sacrfice in hp, is the defining element of scouts in Dust, regardless of race.
Apidem's efficiency to profile dampeners for all scouts bonus is a good solution. It allows decent stealth for all scouts whilst similtaneously making it more difficult for scouts to avoid scans without fitting any dampeners. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
989
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Posted - 2015.06.13 17:09:00 -
[99] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
6. I think it probable that GalScout and CalScout knifers would become overpowered if granted the MinScout's present alpha; their slot configs and racial bonuses permit them to dampen and simultaneously maintain comparatively decent HP. I'm of the opinion that giving these units better alpha potential would very likely introduce new imbalance.
It's worth remembering that a major thrust of this thread is to give Minmatar scouts equal dampening to Gal and Cal scouts, if the knife bonus was removed. |
Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.06.13 17:15:00 -
[100] - Quote
@ Arirana
Nice work. I'd say you've done a good job of nailing the racial characteristics of the scouts. There's really nothing i want to change here.
Re: Min losing knives but gaining profile damping and melee speed. It's more than a fair trade. Minscouts suffer considerably in their role as scouts from their lack of damping bonus. The melee speed bonus is a more than ample role bonus together with the hacking bonus - its a more-silent charge-up free attack than knives and fits the hacker's role well. Min melee is powerful, especially given the ability to melee from cloak, on top of which the melee focuswill free up that sidearm slot for role flexibility without throwing away the suit's bonuses. It's a fair trade, and in some hands the melee speed bonus + cloak may be considered OP ;)
Also worth remembering is that someday the minscout won't have it's glitchy advantage of being able to move faster that the game can handle. At that point it will become considerably weaker and bonuses may have to be revisited.
Recalibration of Nova Knife damage & progression for STD-ADV-PRO is a win for all suits, but i would definitely want that recalibrated damage to be less than what the minscout generates now. The problem child suit will prolly be the minsault with knives - more hp than scout with high strafe and damps and slots left over.
Re: Ammar active scan exclusion zone: beautiful racial balancing with the GalLogi, love the squad dynamics that creates.
Re: Caldari shared ECM zone bonus: Again, nice balancing against the Galscout.
Re: Galscout shared scan radius bonus: Much better balanced than the godlike GalLogi scan bonus which has no range limitation.
Re: Implementing this in Dust - we need to hear from Rattai if these radial bonii are doable, as well as the active-scan specific Ammar bonus.
PSN: RationalSpark
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 17:17:00 -
[101] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
1. It is a fact that MinScout kill/spawn efficiency is currently among the lowest in the game.
2. Prior to falloff, Shotgun efficiency was among the highest of all light weapons despite its severely limited optimal range.
3. The MinScout's racial bonus to Knives is a major talking point in this thread.
4. Because the Base HP of Assault, Commando and Heavy base preclude them from being low-HP units.
5. I seriously doubt that Rattati is happy with the state of King HP. Low-HP playstyles have every right to be competitively viable; the fact that they presently are not is a balance issue. As we speak, there's an open Dev thread on the subject (Speed/eHP Curve).
6. I think it probable that GalScout and CalScout knifers would become overpowered if granted the MinScout's present alpha; their slot configs and racial bonuses permit them to dampen and simultaneously maintain comparatively decent HP. Giving these units better alpha potential would introduce new imbalance.
1. It's still the most used scout in the game.
2. It's overly used in PC falloff has nothing to do with it, and there's no comparison between them and nova knives.
3. Okay?
4. Low-Hp is relative the TTK of an untanked sentinel and an untanked scout is essentially the same.
5. Why? Of course they do, but they aren't which leads me to believe that Ratatati is in favor of King HP nothing has been put into place to make sure the two stay in balance. In fact there has been a great amount of working against such balance in recent updates.
6. In their current state there's absolutely no way any scout will become overpowered. It's all relative, a min scout can currently tank a decent HP relative to heavies because they actually kill heavies despite taking x amount of damage when the heavy turns around. There's absolutely no way a scout can achieve the speed, reps, tank, stamina, and dampening to paint the narrative you're pushing.
6. N
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 17:20:00 -
[102] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
6. I think it probable that GalScout and CalScout knifers would become overpowered if granted the MinScout's present alpha; their slot configs and racial bonuses permit them to dampen and simultaneously maintain comparatively decent HP. I'm of the opinion that giving these units better alpha potential would very likely introduce new imbalance.
It's worth remembering that a major thrust of this thread is to give Minmatar scouts equal dampening to Gal and Cal scouts, if the knife bonus was removed.
Fair point, Varoth. Assuming base profile and base alpha were equalized, I still suspect that GalScout and CalScout knifers would outperform MinScout knifers due to their superior survibility. I'll put together a few comparative fits to demonstrate ...
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
989
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Posted - 2015.06.13 17:21:00 -
[103] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
6. I think it probable that GalScout and CalScout knifers would become overpowered if granted the MinScout's present alpha; their slot configs and racial bonuses permit them to dampen and simultaneously maintain comparatively decent HP. I'm of the opinion that giving these units better alpha potential would very likely introduce new imbalance.
It's worth remembering that a major thrust of this thread is to give Minmatar scouts equal dampening to Gal and Cal scouts, if the knife bonus was removed. Fair point, Varoth. Assuming base profile and base alpha were equalized, I still suspect that GalScout and CalScout knifers would outperform MinScout knifers due to their superior survibility. I'll put together a few comparative fits to demonstrate ...
What about Min scout superior speed and stamina, which is supposed to counterbalance the hp and regen difference? |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
989
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Posted - 2015.06.13 17:33:00 -
[104] - Quote
gustavo acostate wrote:
1. It's still the most used scout in the game.
Gallente scouts are the most used. They are only very rarely dethroned, according to the market data.
Minmatar scouts aren't doing too badly, close behind Gallente scouts, in usage. However, according to Rattati's data, the Min scout has the second worse k/s of all (non-basic) proto suits, after Min logis. |
gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 17:42:00 -
[105] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:
Gallente scouts are the most used. They are only very rarely dethroned, according to the market data.
Minmatar scouts aren't doing too badly, close behind Gallente scouts, in usage. However, according to Rattati's data, the Min scout has the second worse k/s of all (non-basic) proto suits, after Min logis.
Ooo market data fluctuation, well they were the most used, and honestly that's enough to disregard the rabble about it.
I'm sure that kills per spawn can be mitigated with a buff to profile as the OP suggests, but I don't see a reason why to allow minmatar scouts be the only suit to use nova knives effectively.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 17:43:00 -
[106] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
6. I think it probable that GalScout and CalScout knifers would become overpowered if granted the MinScout's present alpha; their slot configs and racial bonuses permit them to dampen and simultaneously maintain comparatively decent HP. I'm of the opinion that giving these units better alpha potential would very likely introduce new imbalance.
It's worth remembering that a major thrust of this thread is to give Minmatar scouts equal dampening to Gal and Cal scouts, if the knife bonus was removed. Fair point, Varoth. Assuming base profile and base alpha were equalized, I still suspect that GalScout and CalScout knifers would outperform MinScout knifers due to their superior survibility. I'll put together a few comparative fits to demonstrate ... What about Min scout superior speed and stamina, which is supposed to counterbalance the hp and regen difference?
Added fits to previous post. I'm of the opinion that stamina regen and slight speed advantage would not prove substantial enough to overcome the Cal/Gal HP advantage.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 17:52:00 -
[107] - Quote
whoops brah.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 17:56:00 -
[108] - Quote
So when do we get to the part that explains why intermittent scans in limited areas is a crutch but permanent tacnet invisibility in all areas isn't?
And Gus, the Apidem guy is Shotty Go Bang.
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
993
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:11:00 -
[109] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
Added fits to previous post. I'm of the opinion that stamina regen and slight speed advantage would not prove substantial enough to overcome the Cal/Gal HP advantage.
Hmmmmmmm....... enhanced shields. The Min scout's low PG still needs some jiggery pokery to get round.
I would replace one Kincat on the Min with a codebreaker. However, this makes a fair comparison difficult. So instead how about this:
On Min scout-
Swap one shield on the Min scout with a precision enhancer.
Swap one kincat for a ferroscale (yes, abhorent I know, bear with me).
Replace remaining enhanced shields with complex.
On Gal scout-
Swap a shield for a precision.
Swap a kincat for a reactive.
Cal scout-
Leave the same.
Now we have scouts with much more similar stats. All able to passively scan assaults at long range.
The issue now is, the Gal and Cal scout racial bonuses to EWAR (or cloaks is changed) would benefit their ability to use knives, whereas the Min scout hack bonus doesn't.
The Min scout's natural speed and stamina do help it though. And the hack bonus is awesome anyway. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:26:00 -
[110] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
Added fits to previous post. I'm of the opinion that stamina regen and slight speed advantage would not prove substantial enough to overcome the Cal/Gal HP advantage.
Hmmmmmmm....... enhanced shields. The Min scout's low PG still needs some jiggery pokery to get round. I would replace one Kincat on the Min with a codebreaker. However, this makes a fair comparison difficult. So instead how about this: On Min scout- Swap one shield on the Min scout with a precision enhancer. Swap one kincat for a ferroscale (yes, abhorent I know, bear with me). Replace remaining enhanced shields with complex. On Gal scout- Swap a shield for a precision. Swap a kincat for a reactive. Cal scout- Leave the same. Now we have scouts with much more similar stats. All able to passively scan assaults at long range. The issue now is, the Gal and Cal scout racial bonuses to EWAR (or cloaks is changed) would benefit their ability to use knives, whereas the Min scout hack bonus doesn't. The Min scout's natural speed and stamina do help it though. And the hack bonus is awesome anyway.
These are reasonable, loadouts, Varoth. Fair points. Though let's assume for the sake of argument that some might take the Assault Lite approach, maintaining a single damp to beat competitive permascan (21dB), but fitting max shields and ferroscale (for optimal wiggle):
GalScout - 642HP (2 Cmp Shield, 3 Cmp Ferro)
CalScout - 623HP (4 Cmp Shield, 1 Cmp Ferro)
MinScout - 495HP (2 Cmp Shield, 1 Enh Shield, 2 Cmp Ferro)
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Arirana
Negative-Feedback.
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:30:00 -
[111] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
Added fits to previous post. I'm of the opinion that stamina regen and slight speed advantage would not prove substantial enough to overcome the Cal/Gal HP advantage.
Hmmmmmmm....... enhanced shields. The Min scout's low PG still needs some jiggery pokery to get round. I would replace one Kincat on the Min with a codebreaker. However, this makes a fair comparison difficult. So instead how about this: On Min scout- Swap one shield on the Min scout with a precision enhancer. Swap one kincat for a ferroscale (yes, abhorent I know, bear with me). Replace remaining enhanced shields with complex. On Gal scout- Swap a shield for a precision. Swap a kincat for a reactive. Cal scout- Leave the same. Now we have scouts with much more similar stats. All able to passively scan assaults at long range. The issue now is, the Gal and Cal scout racial bonuses to EWAR (or cloaks is changed) would benefit their ability to use knives, whereas the Min scout hack bonus doesn't. The Min scout's natural speed and stamina do help it though. And the hack bonus is awesome anyway.
Honestly this issue has been brought up before and previously I've made it known that the min scout is supposed to be the dual tanker race, so having the same armor as the cal scout is inconsistent with that notion, as well as the fact that cal and gal scouts have a base HP advantage of over 15% of the min scouts base hp, and amarr scout has an HP advantage over 25% of the min scouts HP.
The speed bonus the min scout has as a tradeoff doesn't even come close to those figures.
Not to mention the min scout has by far the lowest pg of all of the scouts, which is completely unwarranted.
I suggest giving 5-10 extra armor to the min scout and swapping around 20 base CPU for 4 pg.
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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Cody Sietz
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
4
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:31:00 -
[112] - Quote
I don't know, if your gonna give all suits damps then they should all get a hacking bonus.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
11
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:37:00 -
[113] - Quote
What about Caldari scouts getting more bang for their buck out of using cloaks.
Something like, increased duration as well as more more reduced profile while damped. This would would really well with A. Nothi's idea of scout overhaul.
Plus it makes lore nuts like me happy that all T scouts have an appropriate bonus.
Gallente in DUST are about Passive stealth tanking
While Caldari are active stealth tankers.
And its reversed when it comes to scanning.
TUNNEL SNAKES RULE!
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Mina Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:44:00 -
[114] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Mina Longstrike wrote:
The minmatar are not concerned in ANY MANNER with actual stealth on their scouts
The Amarr scout is also not concerned in any manner with actual stealth
Thanks for your insights into racial combat doctrines. I just take issue with these two statements. With the practicalities of using scouts in Dust, there is effectively no reason to use a scout without stealth, with the possible exception of initial speed deploys. The hp sacrifice a scout makes compared to assaults is far too much to enable a scout to be viable without being off radar, regardless of speed. Due to binary nature of stealth (the enemy either know where you are or don't) there is no room for non-stealth scouts, when translating combat doctrines from EVE to Dust. All scouts must be stealthy. Cloaks are a potential variable, but sufficient dampening is a necessity for all scouts. The speed of a Minmatar scout is worthless if it appears on Tac-net. This is one of the major problems with the current scout bonuses. It just doesn't work well if some scouts have lower profiles than others. It's very difficult to balance, as we have seen, either some scouts are too easily damped, or some are too easily scanned. It may also be relevant that, originally, both Minmatar and Gallente scouts had a bonus to dampening. Combat doctrines should be translated from EVE as much as is reasonable, without any scout sacrificing dampening. The combination of speed (mobility) and stealth, for the sacrfice in hp, is the defining element of scouts in Dust, regardless of race. Apidem's efficiency to profile dampeners for all scouts bonus is a good solution. It allows decent stealth for all scouts whilst similtaneously making it more difficult for scouts to avoid scans without fitting any dampeners.
Quite a bit of what you've said here is fair, but I do not necessarily think it is entirely correct.
While it is true that stealth is one of the objectives of being a scout, I do not believe that all scouts need to be equally stealthy as they have different goals in mind. Yes the minmatar and amarr want to go largely unnoticed by the 'bigger' suits but that doesn't mean that they also want (or need!) to go unnoticed by other light frames. Essentially while stealth is a priority of [scout] it is not necessarily a priority of [minmatar] / [amarr]... If this were an RPG on a scale of 1-10, being a scout would give say a +5 modifier to stealth, and being gal or cal would further give a +2 and then +1 for each profile damp fitted, where being amarr or min would only get that +5 modifier to stealth.
It is also patently untrue that if you're seen you're worthless as a scout. It usually requires you to re-evaluate things and minscouts high speed allows them plenty of opportunities to GTFO.
In regards to the dampening bonus, that was long before cloaking devices existed and even then the gallente scout was WILDLY better than the minscout.
Sacrificing dampening for big gains in other areas is entirely okay. I'm fine with scouts as they are as there is a lot of fun interplay between them. You get to be invisible from the vast majority of things by fitting two complex damps. It sounds like some of this is meta-specific griping in regards to assaults being better than most suits because reasons and thus being very FOTM, assaults are going to receive some tweaks, as will logi's and hopefully commandos. If scouts are still underperforming then maybe we'll need to take a look at them, but I do not ever want to go back to scouts (particularly gal & cal) ruling dust 514 and absolutely no other suit being worth it.
I don't think adipems change actually does anything meaningful except punishes people who don't fit damps (and undamped play does still have some place in dust), it just shuffles numbers around in a make-work kind of way.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:45:00 -
[115] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:What about Caldari scouts getting more bang for their buck out of using cloaks.
Something like, increased duration as well as more more reduced profile while damped. This would would really well with A. Nothi's idea of scout overhaul.
Plus it makes lore nuts like me happy that all T scouts have an appropriate bonus.
Gallente in DUST are about Passive stealth tanking
While Caldari are active stealth tankers.
And its reversed when it comes to scanning.
Thanks, Kirk! An increased active damp bonus would have to be substantial to make a meaningful difference. Assuming Arirana's figures, all single damped Scouts would share Scan Profile of 20dB. The next number to beat on the EWAR interplay scale is 15dB. The CalScout active damp bonus to cloak would have to be +30% to duck this tier; this seems high. It'd be sufficiently high to permit a cloaked CalScout to beat competitive scans without using any damps at all. This makes me uncomfortable balance-wise.
Why not reduce the affect of cloakblind instead?
Say, instead of a range reduction of 85% while cloaked, set the CalScout's racial bonus to cloakblind of 45%? This figure was pulled from arse, but you get the idea.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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knight guard fury
Sebiestor Field Sappers
Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 18:46:00 -
[116] - Quote
Georgia Xavier wrote:Makuta Miserix wrote:Remove the NK bonus from the MinScout? Not too sure I appreciate what you're saying there. It's the Caldari's in the first place. So basically you're taking pride from borrowed power
give us minmatar knives then or gives us the equivalent power in melee. one way or another the minmatar scout needs someting to be the funnest assassin of all the scouts.
Kin of the Vherokior tribe
I'm a pure minmatar loyalist
I discuss things based on EVE lore.
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knight guard fury
Sebiestor Field Sappers
Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 18:49:00 -
[117] - Quote
on second thought, what if the minmatar had a damage bonus to myo's, like 5 or 10% or something?
Kin of the Vherokior tribe
I'm a pure minmatar loyalist
I discuss things based on EVE lore.
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:50:00 -
[118] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:Georgia Xavier wrote:Makuta Miserix wrote:Remove the NK bonus from the MinScout? Not too sure I appreciate what you're saying there. It's the Caldari's in the first place. So basically you're taking pride from borrowed power give us minmatar knives then or gives us the equivalent power in melee. one way or another the minmatar scout needs someting to be the funnest assassin of all the scouts.
Melee HD is far less reliable than that of knives. I personally wouldn't advocate or support a melee bonus. Perhaps something else, but not melee.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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knight guard fury
Sebiestor Field Sappers
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:52:00 -
[119] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:knight guard fury wrote:Georgia Xavier wrote:Makuta Miserix wrote:Remove the NK bonus from the MinScout? Not too sure I appreciate what you're saying there. It's the Caldari's in the first place. So basically you're taking pride from borrowed power give us minmatar knives then or gives us the equivalent power in melee. one way or another the minmatar scout needs someting to be the funnest assassin of all the scouts. Melee HD is far less reliable than that of knives. I personally wouldn't advocate or support a melee bonus. Perhaps something else, but not melee.
flaylock and smg bonus?
Kin of the Vherokior tribe
I'm a pure minmatar loyalist
I discuss things based on EVE lore.
|
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Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:55:00 -
[120] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:knight guard fury wrote:Georgia Xavier wrote:Makuta Miserix wrote:Remove the NK bonus from the MinScout? Not too sure I appreciate what you're saying there. It's the Caldari's in the first place. So basically you're taking pride from borrowed power give us minmatar knives then or gives us the equivalent power in melee. one way or another the minmatar scout needs someting to be the funnest assassin of all the scouts. Melee HD is far less reliable than that of knives. I personally wouldn't advocate or support a melee bonus. Perhaps something else, but not melee. flaylock bonus?
I know some guys who'd really like that one :-)
How 'bout a very slight increase to movement speed while NKs are equipped? This would allow MinScouts to remain NK Ninja #1 and would reinforce their viability as speedsters.
It'd have to be pretty slight; something like 2% to 3% per level.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:56:00 -
[121] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:What about Caldari scouts getting more bang for their buck out of using cloaks.
Something like, increased duration as well as more more reduced profile while damped. This would would really well with A. Nothi's idea of scout overhaul.
Plus it makes lore nuts like me happy that all T scouts have an appropriate bonus.
Gallente in DUST are about Passive stealth tanking
While Caldari are active stealth tankers.
And its reversed when it comes to scanning.
Ah yes "the gallente get to be stealthy all the time, and shoot things while stealthy... but the caldari get to suck and not be stealthy, except when using a module that otherwise sucks also they don't ever get to shoot things while being stealthy".
This is not a good intentional imbalance, it's actually incredibly horrible. "You only get to be stealthy while you're helpless, while I get to be stealthy all the time and never be helpless".
There is no real incentive to use the caldari scout with this idea, instead it just says "skill the **** out of caldari scouts, they are bad". Meanwhile the gal scout gets to be the 1.7-1.8 king of scouting all over again.
Seriously, what do the caldari scouts gain for this otherwise crippling nerf? +500% damage to all light weapons while a cloaking device is fitted?
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:57:00 -
[122] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:on second thought, what if the minmatar had a damage bonus to myo's, like 5 or 10% or something?
Yes, because minmatar beatscouts running around with 3 myo's punching people for 614 damage while cloaked isn't already annoying enough.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:58:00 -
[123] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:So when do we get to the part that explains why intermittent scans in limited areas is a crutch but permanent tacnet invisibility in all areas isn't?
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10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:58:00 -
[124] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:knight guard fury wrote:on second thought, what if the minmatar had a damage bonus to myo's, like 5 or 10% or something? Yes, because minmatar beatscouts running around with 3 myo's punching people for 614 damage while cloaked isn't already annoying enough.
Agreed. Falcon Punching from cloak is no different from firing a shotgun while partially cloaked. Dealing damage while invisible or partially visible isn't OK and certainly shouldn't be encouraged as a scout role (in my opinion).
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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knight guard fury
Sebiestor Field Sappers
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 19:05:00 -
[125] - Quote
well then how about a damage bonus to smg's and flaylock's or what if we get CCP to reskin the knova knife to minmatar colors and still keep the bonus and change the stats to apply?
Kin of the Vherokior tribe
I'm a pure minmatar loyalist
I discuss things based on EVE lore.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 19:09:00 -
[126] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:what if we get CCP to reskin the knova knife to minmatar colors and still keep the bonus and change the stats to apply?
Asked Arirana the same question. No response yet.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 19:13:00 -
[127] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:So when do we get to the part that explains why intermittent scans in limited areas is a crutch but permanent tacnet invisibility in all areas isn't?
So....deafening, the crickets in this section of the forums are.
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maybe deadcatz
Horizons' Edge
No Context
137
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Posted - 2015.06.13 19:39:00 -
[128] - Quote
Id rather have sidearm bonus reload speed. I have plenty of stamina and thats how i take on all those reds at once.
Ewar? What's that? Some kind of fancy new way of being lazy? Learn how to use your eyes and ears you maggots.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 19:40:00 -
[129] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:So when do we get to the part that explains why intermittent scans in limited areas is a crutch but permanent tacnet invisibility in all areas isn't?
"TacNet Invisibility" isn't accurate.
Assuming Arirana's figures were implemented, Focused Scanners (20dB) would pick up single damp'd Scouts (20dB) and GalLogi + Focused Scanners (15dB) would pick up double damp'd Scouts (16dB). Further, single damp'd Scouts would still be painted to squad TacNet when within optimal SG or NK range of any frame running 1 precision enhancer (even heavies and commandos); MedFrame and Scout inner rings paint 20dB even without a precision enhancer.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
11
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Posted - 2015.06.13 20:10:00 -
[130] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:What about Caldari scouts getting more bang for their buck out of using cloaks.
Something like, increased duration as well as more more reduced profile while damped. This would would really well with A. Nothi's idea of scout overhaul.
Plus it makes lore nuts like me happy that all T scouts have an appropriate bonus.
Gallente in DUST are about Passive stealth tanking
While Caldari are active stealth tankers.
And its reversed when it comes to scanning. Thanks, Kirk! An increased active damp bonus would have to be substantial to make a meaningful difference. Assuming Arirana's figures, all single damped Scouts would share Scan Profile of 20dB. The next number to beat on the EWAR interplay scale is 15dB. The CalScout active damp bonus to cloak would have to be +30% to duck this tier; this seems high. It'd be sufficiently high to permit a cloaked CalScout to beat competitive scans without using any damps at all. This makes me uncomfortable balance-wise. Why not reduce the affect of cloakblind instead? Say, instead of a range reduction of 85% while cloaked, set the CalScout's racial bonus to cloakblind of 45%? This figure was pulled from arse, but you get the idea.
Completely forgot scouts were cloakblind. I definitely see that as a good bonus, I rarely put cloaks on my scouts.
Also to Mina, did you miss the part where I wanted the reverse for cal scouts when it came to active scanning? Even if it was a tunnel vision idea it wasn't made out of bias If that's what you were hinting at.
A. Nothi's idea des make me happy though. It keeps in line with Caldari information warfare traits. I will say though that I really wish for ewar to return to scouts and range amplifiers made useful again. Now that most stuff is in place to allow for their return.
TUNNEL SNAKES RULE!
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 20:16:00 -
[131] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:So when do we get to the part that explains why intermittent scans in limited areas is a crutch but permanent tacnet invisibility in all areas isn't? "TacNet Invisibility" isn't accurate. Assuming Arirana's figures were implemented... They aren't, they're hypothetical. Wheras the "intermittent scanning is a crutch but permanent invisibility isn't" thing is presented very much as a non-hypothetical. I'd be a fool to dismiss the balance-minded perspectives from highly experienced [others].
You got that last part right.
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10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 20:20:00 -
[132] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
I'd be a fool to dismiss the balance-minded perspectives from highly experienced [others].
You got that last part right.
Are you implying that you're highly experienced at something?
Apart from arguing poorly, what might that be, and how does it relate to the topic at hand?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 20:32:00 -
[133] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
I'd be a fool to dismiss the balance-minded perspectives from highly experienced [others].
You got that last part right. Are you implying that you're highly experienced at something? Apart from arguing poorly, what might that be, and how might it relate to the topic at hand?
Indeed.
If you want to talk to an expert in non constructive arguments el OPERATOR is deffinately the person to talk to.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 20:39:00 -
[134] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
I'd be a fool to dismiss the balance-minded perspectives from highly experienced [others].
You got that last part right. Are you implying that you're highly experienced at something? Apart from arguing poorly, what might that be, and how might it relate to the topic at hand? Indeed. If you want to talk to an expert in non constructive arguments el OPERATOR is deffinately the person to talk to.
To be fair, El Operator contributes meaningfully to conversations every once in awhile. Though I can't recall a single instance where he contributed something of value to a conversation on the topic of Scouts.
We can't rule out the possibility that he might surprise us. Fingers crossed.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 20:54:00 -
[135] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:So when do we get to the part that explains why intermittent scans in limited areas is a crutch but permanent tacnet invisibility in all areas isn't?
I do ok at keeping a topic on topic and avoiding the redherring trash that goes for "arguement" in certain circles.
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CAPCRO Nomad.
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Ace Ravager
Horizons' Edge
No Context
80
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:59:00 -
[136] - Quote
I agree with most of this but if you looked at the link you posted is says that Caldari has the preferred style of jamming so wouldn't it make more sense to make that the caldari bonus.
And if the Melee speed for the minja work with NK then they will be in a good place since they can knife faster. If damage was boosted for NK by 25% then Minja would be getting a buff since they wouldn't lose NK damage but in the end being able to use the faster.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 21:01:00 -
[137] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:So when do we get to the part that explains why intermittent scans in limited areas is a crutch but permanent tacnet invisibility in all areas isn't?
I do ok at keeping a topic on topic and avoiding the redherring trash that goes for "arguement" in certain circles.
"Permanent TacNet Invisibility" isn't presently possible, nor has it been proposed by anyone in this thread. Perhaps you can better explain what you mean by "permanent tacnet invisibility" if you mean something other than permanent tacnet invisibility.
As for 21dB GalLogi scans, yes these are arguably out-of-balance, but this is an altogether separate issue.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Ace Ravager
Horizons' Edge
No Context
81
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 21:04:00 -
[138] - Quote
DR DEESE NUTS wrote:Lol. Nova knives are plasma and cqc oriented. They are obviously Gallente. Don't know why people think there Caldari. It's literally the opposite of the Caldari doctrine which shoot from long range and make every shot count. Oppose to Gallente which get in close and bi tch` slap them with loads of damage.
But if you think about it was made with Caldari tech
Caldari is hybrid so in a way they can use plasma if they wanted to and Gallente doesn't have the rights to plasma so **** you.
Even though Gallenete way be the close range fighter what is the point of the Caldari scout if they aren't going to be viable in CQC situations even though Caldari preferred play style is long range. Scouts are supposed to be used for recon purposes even though that never happens in the game. Though scouts can easily slip past enemy lines and wreak havoc. In the end Gallenete are too stupid to make any good weapons anyways, especially ones strong enough to destroy tanks just my swiping. So as I said before **** you.
(Sorry if I came off a little aggressive, I'm just kinda in a bad mood.)
Come here for some Officer Gear
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 21:08:00 -
[139] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:So when do we get to the part that explains why intermittent scans in limited areas is a crutch but permanent tacnet invisibility in all areas isn't?
I do ok at keeping a topic on topic and avoiding the redherring trash that goes for "arguement" in certain circles. "Permanent TacNet Invisibility" isn't presently possible, nor has it been proposed by anyone in this thread. Perhaps you can better explain what you mean by "permanent tacnet invisibility" if you mean something other than permanent tacnet invisibility. As for 21dB GalLogi scans, yes these are arguably out-of-balance, but this is an altogether separate issue.
Arguably anything and everything is out of balance.
Why are scans a crutch but tacnet invisibility not ?
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DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 21:12:00 -
[140] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Apidem Nothi wrote:
"Permanent TacNet Invisibility" isn't presently possible, nor has it been proposed by anyone in this thread. Perhaps you can better explain what you mean by "permanent tacnet invisibility" if you mean something other than permanent tacnet invisibility.
As for 21dB GalLogi scans, yes these are arguably out-of-balance, but this is an altogether separate issue.
Arguably anything and everything is out of balance. Why are scans a crutch but tacnet invisibility is not ?
Specifically what do you mean by "tacnet invisibility" and specifically how would units achieve it?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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knight guard fury
Sebiestor Field Sappers
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 21:14:00 -
[141] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Apidem Nothi wrote:
"Permanent TacNet Invisibility" isn't presently possible, nor has it been proposed by anyone in this thread. Perhaps you can better explain what you mean by "permanent tacnet invisibility" if you mean something other than permanent tacnet invisibility.
As for 21dB GalLogi scans, yes these are arguably out-of-balance, but this is an altogether separate issue.
Arguably anything and everything is out of balance. Why are scans a crutch but tacnet invisibility is not ? Specifically what do you mean by "tacnet invisibility" and specifically how would units achieve it?
i think he means not bieng able to be seen on the tac net passively at all times
Kin of the Vherokior tribe
I'm a pure minmatar loyalist
I discuss things based on EVE lore.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 21:16:00 -
[142] - Quote
Ace Ravager wrote:
Scouts are supposed to be used for recon purposes even though that never happens in the game. Though scouts can easily slip past enemy lines and wreak havoc. And then cry on the forums about how they got scanned while doing it.
What?!? Scouts aren't supposed to be point defenders or assaults? Well, there went all that hard earned meta....
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 21:18:00 -
[143] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Apidem Nothi wrote:
"Permanent TacNet Invisibility" isn't presently possible, nor has it been proposed by anyone in this thread. Perhaps you can better explain what you mean by "permanent tacnet invisibility" if you mean something other than permanent tacnet invisibility.
As for 21dB GalLogi scans, yes these are arguably out-of-balance, but this is an altogether separate issue.
Arguably anything and everything is out of balance. Why are scans a crutch but tacnet invisibility is not ? Specifically what do you mean by "tacnet invisibility" and specifically how would units achieve it? i think he means not bieng able to be seen on the tac net
The grammer sucks but after an edit the idea is close enough.
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Adipem Nothi
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10
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Posted - 2015.06.13 21:20:00 -
[144] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Ace Ravager wrote:
Scouts are supposed to be used for recon purposes even though that never happens in the game. Though scouts can easily slip past enemy lines and wreak havoc. And then cry on the forums about how they got scanned while doing it.
What?!? Scouts aren't supposed to be point defenders or assaults? Well, there went all that hard earned meta....
If you two have not read through this thread yet, I'd recommend giving it a once over:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181381&find=unread
Notice how many Scouts agreed with you. Notice how Scout Recon capabilities got kneecapped anyway.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 21:27:00 -
[145] - Quote
I recon in a scout. Its peachy. Except when I'm a ****** and don't recon. Then its a deathtrap. Am I experienced enough yet?
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knight guard fury
Sebiestor Field Sappers
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 21:32:00 -
[146] - Quote
as a squishy Minmatar scout, i an aggressive recon and spec ops type of scout. i always run around the map taking the longest, least traveled route and take out anybody i think i can handle. i speed hack and keep small forces busy while i hope that some reinforcements come to help clean up.
Kin of the Vherokior tribe
I'm a pure minmatar loyalist
I discuss things based on EVE lore.
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Ace Ravager
Horizons' Edge
No Context
81
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 21:42:00 -
[147] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Ace Ravager wrote:
Scouts are supposed to be used for recon purposes even though that never happens in the game. Though scouts can easily slip past enemy lines and wreak havoc. And then cry on the forums about how they got scanned while doing it.
What?!? Scouts aren't supposed to be point defenders or assaults? Well, there went all that hard earned meta....
Why did u add that part to my post
Come here for some Officer Gear
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 21:48:00 -
[148] - Quote
Ace Ravager wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Ace Ravager wrote:
Scouts are supposed to be used for recon purposes even though that never happens in the game. Though scouts can easily slip past enemy lines and wreak havoc. And then cry on the forums about how they got scanned while doing it.
What?!? Scouts aren't supposed to be point defenders or assaults? Well, there went all that hard earned meta.... Why did u add that part to my post
Its an Easter Egg for the sharp of eye and accurate of memory. Congratulations, You've won!
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 21:50:00 -
[149] - Quote
Alright, I gtg, I feel like I'm going to begin getting petty and start parsing dumb ****. Hope you're able to get what you're looking for, Ari.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
994
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 21:50:00 -
[150] - Quote
To Apidem- +25% damage nova knives still aren't as dangerous as a shotgun, so I don't feel there is a potential balance problem.
To Mina- I stand by what I said about dampening. If you get scanned in a scout, your options are very limited. Running away (which can be very difficult when scanned) is not a useful activity. When you come back you'll just get scanned again. You can fight when scanned, but very poorly. An assault would be far better.
That said, the balance is pretty good right now. Minmatar scouts are pretty viable. Their kills/spawn ratio may be poor, and small adjustments may be needed, such as reducing cloak shimmer. But overall scout balance has been much worse in the past.
A Min scout can't be stealthy and hack particularly fast. And can't fit speed and hp as well as another scouts. And has the worst EWAR. And yet the suit is still used a fair amount, in both pubs and PC. Also nova knives can be used by any suit effectively.
In many ways it suits the Min scout to be the underdog.
As much as I support Arirana's suggestions on Min and Amarr profile reductions, and more knife damage on all suits not just Min scouts, I would be hesitant about rocking the current meta.
Small changes like fixing cloak delay and shimmer would likely make me happy about scout balance. Let's not forget that assaults are likely being toned down a little in the near future as well. |
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.18 12:37:00 -
[151] - Quote
Quote:I don't see a reason why to allow minmatar scouts be the only suit to use nova knives effectively.
Came across a clip from Moochie which reminded me of this thread:
https://youtu.be/_ip_h24672s?t=59
Above is a CalScout running advanced knives; not sure what level proficiency. I've had similar experiences running knives on both Gallente and Caldari Scouts. The only time I miss my Minmatar Scout's bonus is when backstabbing a heavily tanked Assault or charge backstabbing a heavily tanked Sentinel.
All that so say, it has not been my experience that NKs are ineffective on frames other than the MinScout. I don't have footage of my own to prove this point, but footage is out there. Jolly has a few knifing videos; as I recall, he's running GalScout in them. Sax has a knifing video or two running Min Assault. I'm sure there are others.
Scouts aren't in the best of health relative to Assaults at the moment, but the Caldari Scout and Gallente Scout have much working in their favor. Giving all frames MinScout-grade NK alpha potential would very likely -- in my opinion as a career-long Scout and Proficiency 5 knifer -- create balance issues with both the CalScout and GalScout.
My two cents.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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maybe deadcatz
Horizons' Edge
No Context
179
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Posted - 2015.06.18 14:39:00 -
[152] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Quote:I don't see a reason why to allow minmatar scouts be the only suit to use nova knives effectively. Came across a clip from Moochie which reminded me of this thread: https://youtu.be/_ip_h24672s?t=59Above is a CalScout running advanced knives; not sure what level proficiency. I've had similar experiences running knives on both Gallente and Caldari Scouts. The only time I miss my Minmatar Scout's bonus is when backstabbing a heavily tanked Assault or charge backstabbing a heavily tanked Sentinel. All that so say, it has not been my experience that NKs are ineffective on frames other than the MinScout. I don't have footage of my own to prove this point, but footage is out there. Jolly has a few knifing videos; as I recall, he's running GalScout in them. Sax has a knifing video or two running Min Assault. I'm sure there are others. Scouts aren't in the best of health relative to Assaults at the moment, but the Caldari Scout and Gallente Scout have much working in their favor. Giving all frames MinScout-grade NK alpha potential would very likely -- in my opinion as a career-long Scout and Proficiency 5 knifer -- create balance issues with both the CalScout and GalScout. My two cents.
i run novas on a amarr scout. 9.64 meters a second and some ishukones,might need a second swipe but they die anyway.
Ewar? What's that? Some kind of new crutch? Learn how to use your eyes and ears you maggots. Battelskirts for the win!!
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
2
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Posted - 2015.06.18 18:24:00 -
[153] - Quote
Read the second paragraph:
Please PLEASE stop arguing over 'this race that' and 'that race that' and 'wrong racial xxx'.
All roleplay reasons are secondary to good gameplay and game balance.
Besides, for mercs, not even lore reasons justify sticking to just one tech.
Someone wants to kill others bad and win? He'll use the best and most cunning tech combo.
KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
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Georgia Xavier
Y.A.M.A.H
No Context
709
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Posted - 2015.06.18 18:26:00 -
[154] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Read the second paragraph:
Please PLEASE stop arguing over 'this race that' and 'that race that' and 'wrong racial xxx'.
All roleplay reasons are secondary to good gameplay and game balance.
Besides, for mercs, not even lore reasons justify sticking to just one tech.
Someone wants to kill others bad and win? He'll use the best and most cunning tech combo.
But if lore didn't matter then what's the point then? Just turn this game into COD if that's the case
Click me
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VAHZZ
Corrosive Synergy
No Context
2
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Posted - 2015.06.18 19:24:00 -
[155] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Read the second paragraph:
Please PLEASE stop arguing over 'this race that' and 'that race that' and 'wrong racial xxx'.
All roleplay reasons are secondary to good gameplay and game balance.
Besides, for mercs, not even lore reasons justify sticking to just one tech.
Someone wants to kill others bad and win? He'll use the best and most cunning tech combo.
Lore actually has everything to do with it. True, sticking to one tech seems silly, but if you consider LORE you would understand.
I don't know why you are bashing on lore, but I am just going to assume you like CoD or Battlefield and stuff like that. Not everyone is going to stick to lore, but despite DUST not having much lore, yet having a strong group of people that actually follow lore, (True and Aero and PIE using nothing but Amarr tech, i forgot the rest...) So yes, Lore/Roleplay does justify sticking to just one tech.
GÖ¢ Scouts United - Join the Scout channel. GÖ¢
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knight guard fury
Sebiestor Field Sappers
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.06.18 19:31:00 -
[156] - Quote
Lore does matter, with the exception of nova knives I use everything minmatar and have not switched ever unless I'm testing something. For some people lore does matter and it's fun for us, gameplay or not.
Kin of the Vherokior tribe and warrior of the republic
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.06.18 19:39:00 -
[157] - Quote
Lore-friendly or not, it would be irresponsible to advocate for a change which we know would create imbalance.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
2
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Posted - 2015.06.18 22:04:00 -
[158] - Quote
Georgia Xavier wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Read the second paragraph:
Please PLEASE stop arguing over 'this race that' and 'that race that' and 'wrong racial xxx'.
All roleplay reasons are secondary to good gameplay and game balance.
Besides, for mercs, not even lore reasons justify sticking to just one tech.
Someone wants to kill others bad and win? He'll use the best and most cunning tech combo. But if lore didn't matter then what's the point then? Just turn this game into COD if that's the case
Dude, the fitting metagame, corp metagame, the counter-counter-counter fitting and gameplay really are the heart and potential of dust.
Since when has the background story printed on a games' manual mattered to anyone?
The PLAYER CREATED LIVING STORY is the essence here.
KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
2
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Posted - 2015.06.18 22:09:00 -
[159] - Quote
VAHZZ wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Read the second paragraph:
Please PLEASE stop arguing over 'this race that' and 'that race that' and 'wrong racial xxx'.
All roleplay reasons are secondary to good gameplay and game balance.
Besides, for mercs, not even lore reasons justify sticking to just one tech.
Someone wants to kill others bad and win? He'll use the best and most cunning tech combo. Lore actually has everything to do with it. True, sticking to one tech seems silly, but if you consider LORE you would understand. I don't know why you are bashing on lore, but I am just going to assume you like CoD or Battlefield and stuff like that. Not everyone is going to stick to lore, but despite DUST not having much lore, yet having a strong group of people that actually follow lore, (True and Aero and PIE using nothing but Amarr tech, i forgot the rest...) So yes, Lore/Roleplay does justify sticking to just one tech.
Never played Battlefield never seen COD.
I like Eve.
Roleplay reasons <<< Gameplay reasons
That's why I bash roleplay in design discussion.
KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
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Georgia Xavier
Y.A.M.A.H
No Context
712
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Posted - 2015.06.19 00:53:00 -
[160] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:VAHZZ wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Read the second paragraph:
Please PLEASE stop arguing over 'this race that' and 'that race that' and 'wrong racial xxx'.
All roleplay reasons are secondary to good gameplay and game balance.
Besides, for mercs, not even lore reasons justify sticking to just one tech.
Someone wants to kill others bad and win? He'll use the best and most cunning tech combo. Lore actually has everything to do with it. True, sticking to one tech seems silly, but if you consider LORE you would understand. I don't know why you are bashing on lore, but I am just going to assume you like CoD or Battlefield and stuff like that. Not everyone is going to stick to lore, but despite DUST not having much lore, yet having a strong group of people that actually follow lore, (True and Aero and PIE using nothing but Amarr tech, i forgot the rest...) So yes, Lore/Roleplay does justify sticking to just one tech. Never played Battlefield never seen COD. I like Eve. Roleplay reasons <<< Gameplay reasons That's why I bash roleplay in design discussion.
Roleplay is part of gameplay,it's what gives gameplay flavour. Sure if gameplay is nice but there is no reason behind it just mindless shooting I would have been bored with this game within a week because it's far too bland
Click me
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
RUST415
868
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Posted - 2015.06.19 06:08:00 -
[161] - Quote
Some of the racial bonuses don't make sense to me. Gals are the kings of rep...why don't gal logis get the rep tool bonus? Minmatar are primarily a double tank race. Why they get a buff to armor rep is beyond me. Hack speed makes sense. You'd think they'd get some sort of bonus to kinkats, myofibs, and/or cardios.... |
Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
6
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Posted - 2015.06.19 06:33:00 -
[162] - Quote
Oh god if this ever happened I'd respect in a heart beat back to pure Amarr.
"The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited."
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
1
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Posted - 2015.06.19 06:51:00 -
[163] - Quote
Your lengthy in-depth well thought out post doesn't fool me Ari.
This is merely a distraction so people don't start talking about fixing melee glitching.
Official CPM Platform
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xavier zor II
13
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Posted - 2015.06.19 07:33:00 -
[164] - Quote
like no one agrees with this....a sh!t ton of views and only 12 likes.
No, we will not vote you into CPM2 just because you decided to suggest random crap a month before voting
xavier zor's alt
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xavier zor II
13
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Posted - 2015.06.19 07:36:00 -
[165] - Quote
Georgia Xavier wrote:Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:His entire squad and him were running Min Assaults with stacked Myos and Mass Drivers or PLCs today; was annoying as Hell. For once I was glad I didn't play today, for even someone as stubborn as me would have rage quit if I saw not one but six jumpy assault mk.0 with AOE weapons and proceed to throw my controller at the wall with the velocity equivalent to the forge
anyone running a min assault needs 15 kicks to the face...the suit isn't cool anymore, its FoTM, scrubby....i see like 5 every battle!
xavier zor's alt
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Z Vatican
Hentai Federation
37
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Posted - 2015.06.19 13:20:00 -
[166] - Quote
Jack Boost wrote:
No one make weapons for slaves. Slaves grab anything and fight for freedom.
CEO of Hentai Fedeartion /
Caldari is Life-
State Peacekeeper-
Enemies of the Gallente
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Her Chosen
Grade No.2
320
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Posted - 2015.06.19 17:14:00 -
[167] - Quote
Ari for CPM...
or Ratatti's replacement
That dark cloud
Latest Upload
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