DUST Search - Let's talk about the Scout: Racial bonuses and inferred roles.

Varoth Drac wrote:

Mina Longstrike wrote:

The minmatar are not concerned in ANY MANNER with actual stealth on their scouts

The Amarr scout is also not concerned in any manner with actual stealth

Thanks for your insights into racial combat doctrines. I just take issue with these two statements.

With the practicalities of using scouts in Dust, there is effectively no reason to use a scout without stealth, with the possible exception of initial speed deploys.

The hp sacrifice a scout makes compared to assaults is far too much to enable a scout to be viable without being off radar, regardless of speed. Due to binary nature of stealth (the enemy either know where you are or don't) there is no room for non-stealth scouts, when translating combat doctrines from EVE to Dust. All scouts must be stealthy. Cloaks are a potential variable, but sufficient dampening is a necessity for all scouts.

The speed of a Minmatar scout is worthless if it appears on Tac-net.

This is one of the major problems with the current scout bonuses. It just doesn't work well if some scouts have lower profiles than others. It's very difficult to balance, as we have seen, either some scouts are too easily damped, or some are too easily scanned.

It may also be relevant that, originally, both Minmatar and Gallente scouts had a bonus to dampening.

Combat doctrines should be translated from EVE as much as is reasonable, without any scout sacrificing dampening. The combination of speed (mobility) and stealth, for the sacrfice in hp, is the defining element of scouts in Dust, regardless of race.

Apidem's efficiency to profile dampeners for all scouts bonus is a good solution. It allows decent stealth for all scouts whilst similtaneously making it more difficult for scouts to avoid scans without fitting any dampeners.


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MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.13 14:08:00 - [1] - Quote Arirana wrote: Words You are inferring a lot of things that are incorrect about the races. So to address your initial statement about the nova knives and "waaah its wrong for minmatar to use them"... Yes thje caldari make them, we also make a SMG for the minmatar. Caldari are rather mercantile and the ISHUKONE corporation are in fact rather sympathetic to the minmatar - handing over 'Insorum' to the Minmatar republic for free (Insorum is the permanent cure to a disease/toxin the amarr widely use to control their slaves. As it is the nova knife is a completely viable weapon almost all scouts the damage bonus the minmatar gets simultaneously does and doesn't change the weapons interactions. Now to address the actual racial combat philosophies. Minmatar = skirmish warfare. Caldari = Siege warfare. Gallente = Information warfare. Amarr = Armored warfare. The minmatar are not concerned in ANY MANNER with actual stealth on their scouts as a scout they do want to be 'stealthy'... but not stealthy compared to other scouts, what they are concerned with however is speed; which is why they move fast, have a nice highly lethal knife for people that don't see them and a hack bonus that when augmented by a single complex codebreaker causes them to hack at a speed of about 2 units... to most other dropsuits 1.0-1.2. The minmatar scout could be summed up as a 'subverter/assassin' There is little that the minmatar will not do if desperation pushes them towards it, and it just so happens that knives are cheap and adaptable and reliable one of two traits that minmatar favor (the other being 'versatility'). It's why they haven't bothered to advance past using conventionally 'primitive' firearms, the minmatar usually like low-tech or practical solutions to problems. The Amarr scout is also not concerned in any manner with actual stealth - but for entirely different reasons than the minmatar. Amarr love their pomp and ceremony, and ideally they love visibly seeing the fear in their opponents when bringing the wrath of god down upon them. The amarr design of scout is best summed up as a "Hunter-Killer"... which incidentally has real-world parallels within armored warfare doctrines. They are a very durable scout with the ability to cover a lot of distance and provide vision to their more heavily armored counterparts (assaults, sentinels and commandos) while still (in theory) being able to effectively detect, engage and kill other scouts. A large part of the amarr doctrine is about breaking the will of their opponents and they prize efficiency and discipline highly. The Caldari warfare doctrine is siege warfare and oh boy does their scout fit it. First off of all the scouts the caldari has by far the most ability to re-engage and regenerate hp (serious, 50hp/sec and 3/4s delays... some races would kill for that ability to recover HP on their assaults and sentinels) yes they only get about ~400 hp but they can hit you over and over and over making them easily one of the most combat oriented scouts. Thanks to their range bonuses, if they fit a single adv or better precision amp they have the ability to safely pick their engagements against bigger 'scarier' things like assaults due to seeing them at 45m, this also allows them to provide some data to their allies as well (who like to take a position and hold it). The dampening bonus is essentially how electronic countermeasures play out in dust - you cannot act on me while I act on you, it also provides the common racial parallel with the gallente that caldari have. These guys are probably in the truest sense 'scouts'. The caldari prize efficiency and predatory instinct, this is well represented by the calscout being the most 'fighty'. The Gallente warfare doctrine is Information warfare and their scout is an excellent representation. In a word it could be called an infiltrator or a ghost. Its dampening bonus actively denies opponents information, while its scanning bonus also helps it glean vital information. There's not a huge amount to say here... but as a lore nugget I'll say that the gallente tend to favor high tech solutions to problems. And finally... Why are you trying to fix a scout system that isn't broken? Apocalyptic Destroyerr wrote: I always wondered why the Minmitrash got bonuses to the Swarms and Novaknives.. Doesn't make a damn sense at all. They're not supposed to get a bonus to swarms... it has to do with how damage is flagged in this game [weapongroup$lightexplosive] rather than something like [weapongroup$minmatar] or whatever. The min commando is flagged to have a bonus to projectile and explosives (covering combat rifle and mass driver) but it just so happens that the swarm is flagged as explosive... which has caused ~~idiots~~ fotm chasers to flock to the mincom in droves Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.13 14:19:00 - [2] - Quote Nachos wrote: Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: Oh and btw, in the OP you mentioned that the Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers hacks as fast as a Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker, but that's not true. A Min Scout with 1 Codebreaker hacks faster than a Gal Scout with 2 Codebreakers. they hack equally as fast...min scout bonus is 25%+ cmp codebreaker which brings it to 50% gal scout gets 2 x 25% bonuses because codebreakers have no stacking penalties All percentile mods aside from the jump speed on myo's have stacking penalties, all of them. Minscouts also hack at 1.15 units base compared to the galscouts 1.10 base. Then the minscouts 1.15 base gets increased by 25% from the hacking skill (or the min scout 5 skill, bonuses always apply highest to lowest, unpenalized to penalized). So 1.15(base speed) * 1.25(hacking 5) * 1.25(minscout 5) * 1.25(complex codebreaker, any codebreakers after this would be penalized) = 2.24609375 ~1.8 units base for a minscout with hacking 5 and minscout 5. ~2.25 units with a single hack mod 1.10(base speed) * 1.25(codebreaker #1) * 1.25 * [1.25.87=1.2175](penalized codebreaker) = 1.375 Galscout with hacking 5 and no codebreaker = 1.375 units. with 2 codebreakers the galscout is at 2.09ish speed. You're thinking that mods are additive when they're multiplicative. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.* I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.13 14:33:00 - [3] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Arirana wrote: Proposal 2) Knives are plenty viable on frames other than MinScout; they simply shine when run on a MinScout. I still see no reason to retire the hack-and-slash archetype; it is a good, fun archetype to have. Completely false statement. I know it to be true that using knives on anything other than a min scout is a joke. Literally everyone gawks at anyone in game who even tries to put knives on a heavy, assault, and most scouts. You people are so damn detached from the game it really bugs me seeing you nerds on these forums amid the few that actually play it. Literally the bronies of the community. Oh they're viable on other frames gustavo... just not non-scout frames (aside from the incredibly stupid shotgun / knife min assaults that have popped up recently). I'm relatively okay with this, but I do get really annoyed with how religiously scouts guard the shotgun: rather than having it be a decent 'option' for most/all suits in short range fights, it is relegated strictly to the hands of the scout which is the only suit that has the combination of footspeed and dampening required to make it work. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Mina Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.13 18:44:00 - [4] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Mina Longstrike wrote: The minmatar are not concerned in ANY MANNER with actual stealth on their scouts The Amarr scout is also not concerned in any manner with actual stealth Thanks for your insights into racial combat doctrines. I just take issue with these two statements. With the practicalities of using scouts in Dust, there is effectively no reason to use a scout without stealth, with the possible exception of initial speed deploys. The hp sacrifice a scout makes compared to assaults is far too much to enable a scout to be viable without being off radar, regardless of speed. Due to binary nature of stealth (the enemy either know where you are or don't) there is no room for non-stealth scouts, when translating combat doctrines from EVE to Dust. All scouts must be stealthy. Cloaks are a potential variable, but sufficient dampening is a necessity for all scouts. The speed of a Minmatar scout is worthless if it appears on Tac-net. This is one of the major problems with the current scout bonuses. It just doesn't work well if some scouts have lower profiles than others. It's very difficult to balance, as we have seen, either some scouts are too easily damped, or some are too easily scanned. It may also be relevant that, originally, both Minmatar and Gallente scouts had a bonus to dampening. Combat doctrines should be translated from EVE as much as is reasonable, without any scout sacrificing dampening. The combination of speed (mobility) and stealth, for the sacrfice in hp, is the defining element of scouts in Dust, regardless of race. Apidem's efficiency to profile dampeners for all scouts bonus is a good solution. It allows decent stealth for all scouts whilst similtaneously making it more difficult for scouts to avoid scans without fitting any dampeners. Quite a bit of what you've said here is fair, but I do not necessarily think it is entirely correct. While it is true that stealth is one of the objectives of being a scout, I do not believe that all scouts need to be equally stealthy as they have different goals in mind. Yes the minmatar and amarr want to go largely unnoticed by the 'bigger' suits but that doesn't mean that they also want (or need!) to go unnoticed by other light frames. Essentially while stealth is a priority of [scout] it is not necessarily a priority of [minmatar] / [amarr]... If this were an RPG on a scale of 1-10, being a scout would give say a +5 modifier to stealth, and being gal or cal would further give a +2 and then +1 for each profile damp fitted, where being amarr or min would only get that +5 modifier to stealth. It is also patently untrue that if you're seen you're worthless as a scout. It usually requires you to re-evaluate things and minscouts high speed allows them plenty of opportunities to GTFO. In regards to the dampening bonus, that was long before cloaking devices existed and even then the gallente scout was WILDLY better than the minscout. Sacrificing dampening for big gains in other areas is entirely okay. I'm fine with scouts as they are as there is a lot of fun interplay between them. You get to be invisible from the vast majority of things by fitting two complex damps. It sounds like some of this is meta-specific griping in regards to assaults being better than most suits because reasons and thus being very FOTM, assaults are going to receive some tweaks, as will logi's and hopefully commandos. If scouts are still underperforming then maybe we'll need to take a look at them, but I do not ever want to go back to scouts (particularly gal & cal) ruling dust 514 and absolutely no other suit being worth it. I don't think adipems change actually does anything meaningful except punishes people who don't fit damps (and undamped play does still have some place in dust), it just shuffles numbers around in a make-work kind of way. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.13 18:56:00 - [5] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: What about Caldari scouts getting more bang for their buck out of using cloaks. Something like, increased duration as well as more more reduced profile while damped. This would would really well with A. Nothi's idea of scout overhaul. Plus it makes lore nuts like me happy that all T scouts have an appropriate bonus. Gallente in DUST are about Passive stealth tanking While Caldari are active stealth tankers. And its reversed when it comes to scanning. Ah yes "the gallente get to be stealthy all the time, and shoot things while stealthy... but the caldari get to suck and not be stealthy, except when using a module that otherwise sucks also they don't ever get to shoot things while being stealthy". This is not a good intentional imbalance, it's actually incredibly horrible. "You only get to be stealthy while you're helpless, while I get to be stealthy all the time and never be helpless". There is no real incentive to use the caldari scout with this idea, instead it just says "skill the ** out of caldari scouts, they are bad". Meanwhile the gal scout gets to be the 1.7-1.8 king of scouting all over again. Seriously, what do the caldari scouts gain for this otherwise crippling nerf? +500% damage to all light weapons while a cloaking device is fitted? Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.13 18:57:00 - [6] - Quote knight guard fury wrote: on second thought, what if the minmatar had a damage bonus to myo's, like 5 or 10% or something? Yes, because minmatar beatscouts running around with 3 myo's punching people for 614 damage while cloaked isn't already annoying enough. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.