DUST Search - Let's talk about the Scout: Racial bonuses and inferred roles.

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Sgt Kirk wrote:

What about Caldari scouts getting more bang for their buck out of using cloaks.

Something like, increased duration as well as more more reduced profile while damped. This would would really well with A. Nothi's idea of scout overhaul.

Plus it makes lore nuts like me happy that all T scouts have an appropriate bonus.

Gallente in DUST are about Passive stealth tanking
While Caldari are active stealth tankers.

And its reversed when it comes to scanning.

Thanks, Kirk! An increased active damp bonus would have to be substantial to make a meaningful difference. Assuming Arirana's figures, all single damped Scouts would share Scan Profile of 20dB. The next number to beat on the EWAR interplay scale is 15dB. The CalScout active damp bonus to cloak would have to be +30% to duck this tier; this seems high. It'd be sufficiently high to permit a cloaked CalScout to beat competitive scans without using any damps at all. This makes me uncomfortable balance-wise.

Why not reduce the affect of cloakblind instead?

Say, instead of a range reduction of 85% while cloaked, set the CalScout's racial bonus to cloakblind of 45%? This figure was pulled from arse, but you get the idea.

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MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.13 18:56:00 - [121] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: What about Caldari scouts getting more bang for their buck out of using cloaks. Something like, increased duration as well as more more reduced profile while damped. This would would really well with A. Nothi's idea of scout overhaul. Plus it makes lore nuts like me happy that all T scouts have an appropriate bonus. Gallente in DUST are about Passive stealth tanking While Caldari are active stealth tankers. And its reversed when it comes to scanning. Ah yes "the gallente get to be stealthy all the time, and shoot things while stealthy... but the caldari get to suck and not be stealthy, except when using a module that otherwise sucks also they don't ever get to shoot things while being stealthy". This is not a good intentional imbalance, it's actually incredibly horrible. "You only get to be stealthy while you're helpless, while I get to be stealthy all the time and never be helpless". There is no real incentive to use the caldari scout with this idea, instead it just says "skill the ** out of caldari scouts, they are bad". Meanwhile the gal scout gets to be the 1.7-1.8 king of scouting all over again. Seriously, what do the caldari scouts gain for this otherwise crippling nerf? +500% damage to all light weapons while a cloaking device is fitted? Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.13 18:57:00 - [122] - Quote knight guard fury wrote: on second thought, what if the minmatar had a damage bonus to myo's, like 5 or 10% or something? Yes, because minmatar beatscouts running around with 3 myo's punching people for 614 damage while cloaked isn't already annoying enough. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.13 18:58:00 - [123] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: So when do we get to the part that explains why intermittent scans in limited areas is a crutch but permanent tacnet invisibility in all areas isn't? Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.13 18:58:00 - [124] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: knight guard fury wrote: on second thought, what if the minmatar had a damage bonus to myo's, like 5 or 10% or something? Yes, because minmatar beatscouts running around with 3 myo's punching people for 614 damage while cloaked isn't already annoying enough. Agreed. Falcon Punching from cloak is no different from firing a shotgun while partially cloaked. Dealing damage while invisible or partially visible isn't OK and certainly shouldn't be encouraged as a scout role (in my opinion). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
knight guard fury Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2015.06.13 19:05:00 - [125] - Quote well then how about a damage bonus to smg's and flaylock's or what if we get CCP to reskin the knova knife to minmatar colors and still keep the bonus and change the stats to apply? Kin of the Vherokior tribe I'm a pure minmatar loyalist I discuss things based on EVE lore.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.13 19:09:00 - [126] - Quote knight guard fury wrote: what if we get CCP to reskin the knova knife to minmatar colors and still keep the bonus and change the stats to apply? Asked Arirana the same question. No response yet. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.13 19:13:00 - [127] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: So when do we get to the part that explains why intermittent scans in limited areas is a crutch but permanent tacnet invisibility in all areas isn't? So....deafening, the crickets in this section of the forums are. Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
maybe deadcatz Horizons' Edge No Context 137	Posted - 2015.06.13 19:39:00 - [128] - Quote Id rather have sidearm bonus reload speed. I have plenty of stamina and thats how i take on all those reds at once. Ewar? What's that? Some kind of fancy new way of being lazy? Learn how to use your eyes and ears you maggots.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.13 19:40:00 - [129] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: So when do we get to the part that explains why intermittent scans in limited areas is a crutch but permanent tacnet invisibility in all areas isn't? "TacNet Invisibility" isn't accurate. Assuming Arirana's figures were implemented, Focused Scanners (20dB) would pick up single damp'd Scouts (20dB) and GalLogi + Focused Scanners (15dB) would pick up double damp'd Scouts (16dB). Further, single damp'd Scouts would still be painted to squad TacNet when within optimal SG or NK range of any frame running 1 precision enhancer (even heavies and commandos); MedFrame and Scout inner rings paint 20dB even without a precision enhancer. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.06.13 20:10:00 - [130] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: What about Caldari scouts getting more bang for their buck out of using cloaks. Something like, increased duration as well as more more reduced profile while damped. This would would really well with A. Nothi's idea of scout overhaul. Plus it makes lore nuts like me happy that all T scouts have an appropriate bonus. Gallente in DUST are about Passive stealth tanking While Caldari are active stealth tankers. And its reversed when it comes to scanning. Thanks, Kirk! An increased active damp bonus would have to be substantial to make a meaningful difference. Assuming Arirana's figures, all single damped Scouts would share Scan Profile of 20dB. The next number to beat on the EWAR interplay scale is 15dB. The CalScout active damp bonus to cloak would have to be +30% to duck this tier; this seems high. It'd be sufficiently high to permit a cloaked CalScout to beat competitive scans without using any damps at all. This makes me uncomfortable balance-wise. Why not reduce the affect of cloakblind instead? Say, instead of a range reduction of 85% while cloaked, set the CalScout's racial bonus to cloakblind of 45%? This figure was pulled from arse, but you get the idea. Completely forgot scouts were cloakblind. I definitely see that as a good bonus, I rarely put cloaks on my scouts. Also to Mina, did you miss the part where I wanted the reverse for cal scouts when it came to active scanning? Even if it was a tunnel vision idea it wasn't made out of bias If that's what you were hinting at. A. Nothi's idea des make me happy though. It keeps in line with Caldari information warfare traits. I will say though that I really wish for ewar to return to scouts and range amplifiers made useful again. Now that most stuff is in place to allow for their return. TUNNEL SNAKES RULE!

el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.13 20:16:00 - [131] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: So when do we get to the part that explains why intermittent scans in limited areas is a crutch but permanent tacnet invisibility in all areas isn't? "TacNet Invisibility" isn't accurate. Assuming Arirana's figures were implemented... They aren't, they're hypothetical. Wheras the "intermittent scanning is a crutch but permanent invisibility isn't" thing is presented very much as a non-hypothetical. I'd be a fool to dismiss the balance-minded perspectives from highly experienced [others]. You got that last part right. Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.13 20:20:00 - [132] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'd be a fool to dismiss the balance-minded perspectives from highly experienced [others]. You got that last part right. Are you implying that you're highly experienced at something? Apart from arguing poorly, what might that be, and how does it relate to the topic at hand? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.13 20:32:00 - [133] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'd be a fool to dismiss the balance-minded perspectives from highly experienced [others]. You got that last part right. Are you implying that you're highly experienced at something? Apart from arguing poorly, what might that be, and how might it relate to the topic at hand? Indeed. If you want to talk to an expert in non constructive arguments el OPERATOR is deffinately the person to talk to. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.13 20:39:00 - [134] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'd be a fool to dismiss the balance-minded perspectives from highly experienced [others]. You got that last part right. Are you implying that you're highly experienced at something? Apart from arguing poorly, what might that be, and how might it relate to the topic at hand? Indeed. If you want to talk to an expert in non constructive arguments el OPERATOR is deffinately the person to talk to. To be fair, El Operator contributes meaningfully to conversations every once in awhile. Though I can't recall a single instance where he contributed something of value to a conversation on the topic of Scouts. We can't rule out the possibility that he might surprise us. Fingers crossed. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.13 20:54:00 - [135] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: So when do we get to the part that explains why intermittent scans in limited areas is a crutch but permanent tacnet invisibility in all areas isn't? I do ok at keeping a topic on topic and avoiding the redherring trash that goes for "arguement" in certain circles. Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Ace Ravager Horizons' Edge No Context 80	Posted - 2015.06.13 20:59:00 - [136] - Quote I agree with most of this but if you looked at the link you posted is says that Caldari has the preferred style of jamming so wouldn't it make more sense to make that the caldari bonus. And if the Melee speed for the minja work with NK then they will be in a good place since they can knife faster. If damage was boosted for NK by 25% then Minja would be getting a buff since they wouldn't lose NK damage but in the end being able to use the faster. Come here for some Officer Gear
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.13 21:01:00 - [137] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: So when do we get to the part that explains why intermittent scans in limited areas is a crutch but permanent tacnet invisibility in all areas isn't? I do ok at keeping a topic on topic and avoiding the redherring trash that goes for "arguement" in certain circles. "Permanent TacNet Invisibility" isn't presently possible, nor has it been proposed by anyone in this thread. Perhaps you can better explain what you mean by "permanent tacnet invisibility" if you mean something other than permanent tacnet invisibility. As for 21dB GalLogi scans, yes these are arguably out-of-balance, but this is an altogether separate issue. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Ace Ravager Horizons' Edge No Context 81	Posted - 2015.06.13 21:04:00 - [138] - Quote DR DEESE NUTS wrote: Lol. Nova knives are plasma and cqc oriented. They are obviously Gallente. Don't know why people think there Caldari. It's literally the opposite of the Caldari doctrine which shoot from long range and make every shot count. Oppose to Gallente which get in close and bi tch` slap them with loads of damage. But if you think about it was made with Caldari tech Caldari is hybrid so in a way they can use plasma if they wanted to and Gallente doesn't have the rights to plasma so ** you. Even though Gallenete way be the close range fighter what is the point of the Caldari scout if they aren't going to be viable in CQC situations even though Caldari preferred play style is long range. Scouts are supposed to be used for recon purposes even though that never happens in the game. Though scouts can easily slip past enemy lines and wreak havoc. In the end Gallenete are too stupid to make any good weapons anyways, especially ones strong enough to destroy tanks just my swiping. So as I said before ** you. (Sorry if I came off a little aggressive, I'm just kinda in a bad mood.) Come here for some Officer Gear
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.13 21:08:00 - [139] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: So when do we get to the part that explains why intermittent scans in limited areas is a crutch but permanent tacnet invisibility in all areas isn't? I do ok at keeping a topic on topic and avoiding the redherring trash that goes for "arguement" in certain circles. "Permanent TacNet Invisibility" isn't presently possible, nor has it been proposed by anyone in this thread. Perhaps you can better explain what you mean by "permanent tacnet invisibility" if you mean something other than permanent tacnet invisibility. As for 21dB GalLogi scans, yes these are arguably out-of-balance, but this is an altogether separate issue. Arguably anything and everything is out of balance. Why are scans a crutch but tacnet invisibility not ? Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.13 21:12:00 - [140] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Apidem Nothi wrote: "Permanent TacNet Invisibility" isn't presently possible, nor has it been proposed by anyone in this thread. Perhaps you can better explain what you mean by "permanent tacnet invisibility" if you mean something other than permanent tacnet invisibility. As for 21dB GalLogi scans, yes these are arguably out-of-balance, but this is an altogether separate issue. Arguably anything and everything is out of balance. Why are scans a crutch but tacnet invisibility is not ? Specifically what do you mean by "tacnet invisibility" and specifically how would units achieve it? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

knight guard fury Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2015.06.13 21:14:00 - [141] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Apidem Nothi wrote: "Permanent TacNet Invisibility" isn't presently possible, nor has it been proposed by anyone in this thread. Perhaps you can better explain what you mean by "permanent tacnet invisibility" if you mean something other than permanent tacnet invisibility. As for 21dB GalLogi scans, yes these are arguably out-of-balance, but this is an altogether separate issue. Arguably anything and everything is out of balance. Why are scans a crutch but tacnet invisibility is not ? Specifically what do you mean by "tacnet invisibility" and specifically how would units achieve it? i think he means not bieng able to be seen on the tac net passively at all times Kin of the Vherokior tribe I'm a pure minmatar loyalist I discuss things based on EVE lore.
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.13 21:16:00 - [142] - Quote Ace Ravager wrote: Scouts are supposed to be used for recon purposes even though that never happens in the game. Though scouts can easily slip past enemy lines and wreak havoc. And then cry on the forums about how they got scanned while doing it. What?!? Scouts aren't supposed to be point defenders or assaults? Well, there went all that hard earned meta.... Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.13 21:18:00 - [143] - Quote knight guard fury wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Apidem Nothi wrote: "Permanent TacNet Invisibility" isn't presently possible, nor has it been proposed by anyone in this thread. Perhaps you can better explain what you mean by "permanent tacnet invisibility" if you mean something other than permanent tacnet invisibility. As for 21dB GalLogi scans, yes these are arguably out-of-balance, but this is an altogether separate issue. Arguably anything and everything is out of balance. Why are scans a crutch but tacnet invisibility is not ? Specifically what do you mean by "tacnet invisibility" and specifically how would units achieve it? i think he means not bieng able to be seen on the tac net The grammer sucks but after an edit the idea is close enough. Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.13 21:20:00 - [144] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Ace Ravager wrote: Scouts are supposed to be used for recon purposes even though that never happens in the game. Though scouts can easily slip past enemy lines and wreak havoc. And then cry on the forums about how they got scanned while doing it. What?!? Scouts aren't supposed to be point defenders or assaults? Well, there went all that hard earned meta.... If you two have not read through this thread yet, I'd recommend giving it a once over: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181381&find=unread Notice how many Scouts agreed with you. Notice how Scout Recon capabilities got kneecapped anyway. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.13 21:27:00 - [145] - Quote I recon in a scout. Its peachy. Except when I'm a ****** and don't recon. Then its a deathtrap. Am I experienced enough yet? Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
knight guard fury Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2015.06.13 21:32:00 - [146] - Quote as a squishy Minmatar scout, i an aggressive recon and spec ops type of scout. i always run around the map taking the longest, least traveled route and take out anybody i think i can handle. i speed hack and keep small forces busy while i hope that some reinforcements come to help clean up. Kin of the Vherokior tribe I'm a pure minmatar loyalist I discuss things based on EVE lore.
Ace Ravager Horizons' Edge No Context 81	Posted - 2015.06.13 21:42:00 - [147] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Ace Ravager wrote: Scouts are supposed to be used for recon purposes even though that never happens in the game. Though scouts can easily slip past enemy lines and wreak havoc. And then cry on the forums about how they got scanned while doing it. What?!? Scouts aren't supposed to be point defenders or assaults? Well, there went all that hard earned meta.... Why did u add that part to my post Come here for some Officer Gear
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.13 21:48:00 - [148] - Quote Ace Ravager wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Ace Ravager wrote: Scouts are supposed to be used for recon purposes even though that never happens in the game. Though scouts can easily slip past enemy lines and wreak havoc. And then cry on the forums about how they got scanned while doing it. What?!? Scouts aren't supposed to be point defenders or assaults? Well, there went all that hard earned meta.... Why did u add that part to my post Its an Easter Egg for the sharp of eye and accurate of memory. Congratulations, You've won! Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.13 21:50:00 - [149] - Quote Alright, I gtg, I feel like I'm going to begin getting petty and start parsing dumb ****. Hope you're able to get what you're looking for, Ari. Open-Beta Vet. CAPCRO Nomad. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 994	Posted - 2015.06.13 21:50:00 - [150] - Quote To Apidem- +25% damage nova knives still aren't as dangerous as a shotgun, so I don't feel there is a potential balance problem. To Mina- I stand by what I said about dampening. If you get scanned in a scout, your options are very limited. Running away (which can be very difficult when scanned) is not a useful activity. When you come back you'll just get scanned again. You can fight when scanned, but very poorly. An assault would be far better. That said, the balance is pretty good right now. Minmatar scouts are pretty viable. Their kills/spawn ratio may be poor, and small adjustments may be needed, such as reducing cloak shimmer. But overall scout balance has been much worse in the past. A Min scout can't be stealthy and hack particularly fast. And can't fit speed and hp as well as another scouts. And has the worst EWAR. And yet the suit is still used a fair amount, in both pubs and PC. Also nova knives can be used by any suit effectively. In many ways it suits the Min scout to be the underdog. As much as I support Arirana's suggestions on Min and Amarr profile reductions, and more knife damage on all suits not just Min scouts, I would be hesitant about rocking the current meta. Small changes like fixing cloak delay and shimmer would likely make me happy about scout balance. Let's not forget that assaults are likely being toned down a little in the near future as well.



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