I've killed thousands of mercs with knives on suits other than my MinScout. I run Knives on my CalScout with an ARR; it's a decent loadout; you should try it sometime. I've run knives on my GalScout as well off and on for the past couple years; it isn't bad when paired with AR, Bolt or SMG.

PS: I still play, by the way, though admittedly not as much as I'd like to. Pushing 90M SP and still in the top 100 in global kills (or very close to it).

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Oh they're viable on other frames gustavo... just not non-scout frames (aside from the incredibly stupid shotgun / knife min assaults that have popped up recently). I'm relatively okay with this, but I do get really annoyed with how religiously scouts guard the shotgun: rather than having it be a decent 'option' for most/all suits in short range fights, it is relegated strictly to the hands of the scout which is the only suit that has the combination of footspeed and dampening required to make it work.

Scouts, not heavies, not assaults, not logies, not amarr scout. I guess viable on most other frames is right, you know the 3/16 ratio really says it all. "Totally balanced for every suit to enjoy." Goodness I'm gonna puke at the ignorance in this statement, look buddy I don't care about your dumb fits, I know you don't play this game enough if you honestly perpetuate the (stupid) idea that the min scout(or scouts whatever you're suggesting) should be the only suit to use nova knifes.

If you do play the game, and are in fact pushing 90 million sp then run it on an assault, you have to be doing something with all that sp right? I doubt it all went into cores and "scutly bustardnes prof 69."

So to address your initial statement about the nova knives and "waaah its wrong for minmatar to use them"... Yes thje caldari make them, we also make a SMG for the minmatar. Caldari are rather mercantile and the ISHUKONE corporation are in fact rather sympathetic to the minmatar - handing over 'Insorum' to the Minmatar republic for free (Insorum is the permanent cure to a disease/toxin the amarr widely use to control their slaves.

I do hope you'll be able to put away your epeen and try to focus on the topic at hand. Not sure why you're keen on pounding chest; I've well over twice your kills, well over twice your KDR, and I was running Scout suits long before you found your way to the frame while chasing FoTM. If you're able to calm yourself down and pay attention, friend, there is a good chance you might learn something.

Nova Knives on a MinScout provide alpha sufficient to insta-gank almost any unit in the game. The fact that MinScouts are extremely squishy and easier to scan than GA/CA Scouts provide mechanical counterbalance to this potent alpha strike. If this same alpha potential could be wielded by higher-hitpoint units, the risk of knifing would decline and the reward would hold constant; knives would likely become OP. Further, if this same alpha potential were wielded by CA and GA Scouts -- who can duck competitive scans with only one damp -- knives would likely become OP.

Rattati has made it clear that he wishes for all reasonable playstyles to be competitively viable. Speed and stealth-oriented, low-HP playstyles are reasonable playstyles, and the only way that these can compete is through high-risk, high-reward alpha takedown. If high-alpha weaponry is wielded just as effectively by high-HP loadouts, low-HP loadouts become that much less competitive.

I assumed that the Caldari made Nova Knives to be their last resort in a forced CQC situation.

I'm also pretty sure that I read somewhere on EVElopedia that the art of knife combat has a special Caldari name, and mastery of which is a requirement for every Commander - or something.

They're 100% Caldari.

1. Hp and strafe speed of the minmatar scout is the biggest factor in their survivability which is still sizable.

2. There is absolutely no way that nova knives would become OP because of how little range they cover compared to the other sidearms.

3. Scouts aren't supposed to be weapons specialists, it's made clear by their bonuses.

4. Why can't medium frames and heavy frames have low hp playstyles?

5. I mean in all honesty I haven't seen any low hp suit being competitive anymore, so I think you have a bit of a skewed view of "what Rattati wants," but that's beside the point.

6. A damage buff and minmatar rework would definitely allow knives to be viable on other suits, but in no way impede the ability of the current knife meta to use them, and definitely allow for low hp fits to flourish.

The minmatar are not concerned in ANY MANNER with actual stealth on their scouts

The Amarr scout is also not concerned in any manner with actual stealth

6. I think it probable that GalScout and CalScout knifers would become overpowered if granted the MinScout's present alpha; their slot configs and racial bonuses permit them to dampen and simultaneously maintain comparatively decent HP. I'm of the opinion that giving these units better alpha potential would very likely introduce new imbalance.

1. It is a fact that MinScout kill/spawn efficiency is currently among the lowest in the game.

2. Prior to falloff, Shotgun efficiency was among the highest of all light weapons despite its severely limited optimal range.

3. The MinScout's racial bonus to Knives is a major talking point in this thread.

4. Because the Base HP of Assault, Commando and Heavy base preclude them from being low-HP units.

5. I seriously doubt that Rattati is happy with the state of King HP. Low-HP playstyles have every right to be competitively viable; the fact that they presently are not is a balance issue. As we speak, there's an open Dev thread on the subject (Speed/eHP Curve).

6. I think it probable that GalScout and CalScout knifers would become overpowered if granted the MinScout's present alpha; their slot configs and racial bonuses permit them to dampen and simultaneously maintain comparatively decent HP. Giving these units better alpha potential would introduce new imbalance.

It's worth remembering that a major thrust of this thread is to give Minmatar scouts equal dampening to Gal and Cal scouts, if the knife bonus was removed.

Fair point, Varoth. Assuming base profile and base alpha were equalized, I still suspect that GalScout and CalScout knifers would outperform MinScout knifers due to their superior survibility. I'll put together a few comparative fits to demonstrate ...

1. It's still the most used scout in the game.

Gallente scouts are the most used. They are only very rarely dethroned, according to the market data.

Minmatar scouts aren't doing too badly, close behind Gallente scouts, in usage. However, according to Rattati's data, the Min scout has the second worse k/s of all (non-basic) proto suits, after Min logis.

What about Min scout superior speed and stamina, which is supposed to counterbalance the hp and regen difference?

Added fits to previous post. I'm of the opinion that stamina regen and slight speed advantage would not prove substantial enough to overcome the Cal/Gal HP advantage.

Hmmmmmmm....... enhanced shields. The Min scout's low PG still needs some jiggery pokery to get round.

I would replace one Kincat on the Min with a codebreaker. However, this makes a fair comparison difficult. So instead how about this:

On Min scout-
Swap one shield on the Min scout with a precision enhancer.
Swap one kincat for a ferroscale (yes, abhorent I know, bear with me).
Replace remaining enhanced shields with complex.

On Gal scout-
Swap a shield for a precision.
Swap a kincat for a reactive.

Cal scout-
Leave the same.

Now we have scouts with much more similar stats. All able to passively scan assaults at long range.

The issue now is, the Gal and Cal scout racial bonuses to EWAR (or cloaks is changed) would benefit their ability to use knives, whereas the Min scout hack bonus doesn't.

The Min scout's natural speed and stamina do help it though. And the hack bonus is awesome anyway.

Hmmmmmmm....... enhanced shields. The Min scout's low PG still needs some jiggery pokery to get round.

I would replace one Kincat on the Min with a codebreaker. However, this makes a fair comparison difficult. So instead how about this:

On Min scout-
Swap one shield on the Min scout with a precision enhancer.
Swap one kincat for a ferroscale (yes, abhorent I know, bear with me).
Replace remaining enhanced shields with complex.

On Gal scout-
Swap a shield for a precision.
Swap a kincat for a reactive.

Cal scout-
Leave the same.

Now we have scouts with much more similar stats. All able to passively scan assaults at long range.

The issue now is, the Gal and Cal scout racial bonuses to EWAR (or cloaks is changed) would benefit their ability to use knives, whereas the Min scout hack bonus doesn't.

The Min scout's natural speed and stamina do help it though. And the hack bonus is awesome anyway.

Thanks for your insights into racial combat doctrines. I just take issue with these two statements.

With the practicalities of using scouts in Dust, there is effectively no reason to use a scout without stealth, with the possible exception of initial speed deploys.

The hp sacrifice a scout makes compared to assaults is far too much to enable a scout to be viable without being off radar, regardless of speed. Due to binary nature of stealth (the enemy either know where you are or don't) there is no room for non-stealth scouts, when translating combat doctrines from EVE to Dust. All scouts must be stealthy. Cloaks are a potential variable, but sufficient dampening is a necessity for all scouts.

The speed of a Minmatar scout is worthless if it appears on Tac-net.

This is one of the major problems with the current scout bonuses. It just doesn't work well if some scouts have lower profiles than others. It's very difficult to balance, as we have seen, either some scouts are too easily damped, or some are too easily scanned.

It may also be relevant that, originally, both Minmatar and Gallente scouts had a bonus to dampening.

Combat doctrines should be translated from EVE as much as is reasonable, without any scout sacrificing dampening. The combination of speed (mobility) and stealth, for the sacrfice in hp, is the defining element of scouts in Dust, regardless of race.

Apidem's efficiency to profile dampeners for all scouts bonus is a good solution. It allows decent stealth for all scouts whilst similtaneously making it more difficult for scouts to avoid scans without fitting any dampeners.

What about Caldari scouts getting more bang for their buck out of using cloaks.

Something like, increased duration as well as more more reduced profile while damped. This would would really well with A. Nothi's idea of scout overhaul.

Plus it makes lore nuts like me happy that all T scouts have an appropriate bonus.

Gallente in DUST are about Passive stealth tanking
While Caldari are active stealth tankers.


And its reversed when it comes to scanning.

It's the Caldari's in the first place. So basically you're taking pride from borrowed power

give us minmatar knives then or gives us the equivalent power in melee. one way or another the minmatar scout needs someting to be the funnest assassin of all the scouts.

Melee HD is far less reliable than that of knives. I personally wouldn't advocate or support a melee bonus. Perhaps something else, but not melee.

flaylock bonus?