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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
976
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Posted - 2015.06.12 01:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Interestingly I made almost the exact same proposal in the barbershop a while back.
A potential alternative Gallente scout bonus would be to cloak duration/recharge. Or give Caldari the cloak bonus and Galente scan range, if you want to be more racially aligned.
There are issues however. Firstly there is the danger of making the Minmatar scout overpowered. Also, whilst I like the idea of making knives more viable on other suits, removing the knife bonus to Min scouts potentially loses the flavour and heart of the suit. Knives are part of a Min scout's identity. Losing the bonus, even if knife damage was buffed generally, would remove that identity. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
980
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Posted - 2015.06.13 08:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
There would be plenty of reasons to use nova knives on a Min scout. With the damp bonus you could happily run two kincats and a damp in your low slots and be as fast and dampened as anyone. The Min scout's natural speed and stamina make it great for knifing.
It's just that they might lose some flavour being known as "that suit which hacks" rather than "that suit which knifes". Although hacking is already the Min scout's primary identity in PC. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
980
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Posted - 2015.06.13 09:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arirana wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:There would be plenty of reasons to use nova knives on a Min scout. With the damp bonus you could happily run two kincats and a damp in your low slots and be as fast and dampened as anyone. The Min scout's natural speed and stamina make it great for knifing.
It's just that they might lose some flavour being known as "that suit which hacks" rather than "that suit which knifes". Although hacking is already the Min scout's primary identity in PC. Yes I agree, I made major edits to the OP btw I ask that you read them, I value your feedback.
I like the ideas. The only reservation I have is that jamming isn't a mechanic in Dust, so it's unlikely to be implemented.
I agree that Gallente would need an improved scanning bonus. Both range and precision at the same time can be problematic, however.
A popular bonus for Amarr is to biotics. Apparently fast Amarr ships in Eve are very fast. Even though most are slow.
It sounds like ECM is roughly similar to stealth. The only stealth mechanics in Dust are dampeners and cloaks. So I feel an extra cloak bonus for Caldari would be good for them, rather than scan range.
So, assuming jamming mechanics aren't brought in, I'd go with this:
+25% nova knife damage.
Scout bonus: -15% cloak fitting per level. -3% profile per level.
Min bonus: +5% hack speed per level.
Amarr bonus: +5% biotic module efficiency per level.
Gal bonus: +5% scan precision per level.
Cal bonus: +5% cloak duration and recharge per level. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
989
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 17:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:
The minmatar are not concerned in ANY MANNER with actual stealth on their scouts
The Amarr scout is also not concerned in any manner with actual stealth
Thanks for your insights into racial combat doctrines. I just take issue with these two statements.
With the practicalities of using scouts in Dust, there is effectively no reason to use a scout without stealth, with the possible exception of initial speed deploys.
The hp sacrifice a scout makes compared to assaults is far too much to enable a scout to be viable without being off radar, regardless of speed. Due to binary nature of stealth (the enemy either know where you are or don't) there is no room for non-stealth scouts, when translating combat doctrines from EVE to Dust. All scouts must be stealthy. Cloaks are a potential variable, but sufficient dampening is a necessity for all scouts.
The speed of a Minmatar scout is worthless if it appears on Tac-net.
This is one of the major problems with the current scout bonuses. It just doesn't work well if some scouts have lower profiles than others. It's very difficult to balance, as we have seen, either some scouts are too easily damped, or some are too easily scanned.
It may also be relevant that, originally, both Minmatar and Gallente scouts had a bonus to dampening.
Combat doctrines should be translated from EVE as much as is reasonable, without any scout sacrificing dampening. The combination of speed (mobility) and stealth, for the sacrfice in hp, is the defining element of scouts in Dust, regardless of race.
Apidem's efficiency to profile dampeners for all scouts bonus is a good solution. It allows decent stealth for all scouts whilst similtaneously making it more difficult for scouts to avoid scans without fitting any dampeners. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
989
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 17:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
6. I think it probable that GalScout and CalScout knifers would become overpowered if granted the MinScout's present alpha; their slot configs and racial bonuses permit them to dampen and simultaneously maintain comparatively decent HP. I'm of the opinion that giving these units better alpha potential would very likely introduce new imbalance.
It's worth remembering that a major thrust of this thread is to give Minmatar scouts equal dampening to Gal and Cal scouts, if the knife bonus was removed. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
989
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 17:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
6. I think it probable that GalScout and CalScout knifers would become overpowered if granted the MinScout's present alpha; their slot configs and racial bonuses permit them to dampen and simultaneously maintain comparatively decent HP. I'm of the opinion that giving these units better alpha potential would very likely introduce new imbalance.
It's worth remembering that a major thrust of this thread is to give Minmatar scouts equal dampening to Gal and Cal scouts, if the knife bonus was removed. Fair point, Varoth. Assuming base profile and base alpha were equalized, I still suspect that GalScout and CalScout knifers would outperform MinScout knifers due to their superior survibility. I'll put together a few comparative fits to demonstrate ...
What about Min scout superior speed and stamina, which is supposed to counterbalance the hp and regen difference? |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
989
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 17:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
gustavo acostate wrote:
1. It's still the most used scout in the game.
Gallente scouts are the most used. They are only very rarely dethroned, according to the market data.
Minmatar scouts aren't doing too badly, close behind Gallente scouts, in usage. However, according to Rattati's data, the Min scout has the second worse k/s of all (non-basic) proto suits, after Min logis. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
993
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
Added fits to previous post. I'm of the opinion that stamina regen and slight speed advantage would not prove substantial enough to overcome the Cal/Gal HP advantage.
Hmmmmmmm....... enhanced shields. The Min scout's low PG still needs some jiggery pokery to get round.
I would replace one Kincat on the Min with a codebreaker. However, this makes a fair comparison difficult. So instead how about this:
On Min scout-
Swap one shield on the Min scout with a precision enhancer.
Swap one kincat for a ferroscale (yes, abhorent I know, bear with me).
Replace remaining enhanced shields with complex.
On Gal scout-
Swap a shield for a precision.
Swap a kincat for a reactive.
Cal scout-
Leave the same.
Now we have scouts with much more similar stats. All able to passively scan assaults at long range.
The issue now is, the Gal and Cal scout racial bonuses to EWAR (or cloaks is changed) would benefit their ability to use knives, whereas the Min scout hack bonus doesn't.
The Min scout's natural speed and stamina do help it though. And the hack bonus is awesome anyway. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
994
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 21:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
To Apidem- +25% damage nova knives still aren't as dangerous as a shotgun, so I don't feel there is a potential balance problem.
To Mina- I stand by what I said about dampening. If you get scanned in a scout, your options are very limited. Running away (which can be very difficult when scanned) is not a useful activity. When you come back you'll just get scanned again. You can fight when scanned, but very poorly. An assault would be far better.
That said, the balance is pretty good right now. Minmatar scouts are pretty viable. Their kills/spawn ratio may be poor, and small adjustments may be needed, such as reducing cloak shimmer. But overall scout balance has been much worse in the past.
A Min scout can't be stealthy and hack particularly fast. And can't fit speed and hp as well as another scouts. And has the worst EWAR. And yet the suit is still used a fair amount, in both pubs and PC. Also nova knives can be used by any suit effectively.
In many ways it suits the Min scout to be the underdog.
As much as I support Arirana's suggestions on Min and Amarr profile reductions, and more knife damage on all suits not just Min scouts, I would be hesitant about rocking the current meta.
Small changes like fixing cloak delay and shimmer would likely make me happy about scout balance. Let's not forget that assaults are likely being toned down a little in the near future as well. |
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