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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2246	Posted - 2014.06.09 08:21:00 - [1] - Quote Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2014.06.09 08:26:00 - [2] - Quote Maybe slightly increase bolt pistol rof, or range before damage dropoff and/or minimum damage gets upped. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 316	Posted - 2014.06.09 08:50:00 - [3] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: Maybe slightly increase bolt pistol rof, or range before damage dropoff and/or minimum damage gets upped. thats a sidearm and this thread is mainly about the rifles. CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. if youre going to go with eve lore, youll need to increase the rail rifles optimal range to be much closer to their max effective range
Haerr Legio DXIV 782	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:09:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. <3 slowdown on hit...
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5999	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:13:00 - [5] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. Bwahahaha, I love the "Range in CM" bit at the bottom 1) I love the idea of eliminating range progression because it brings us closer to Tieracide, which may never happen in Dust 514 but it's something I think we've all generally wanted for a very long time. 2) Breach AR is good but could probably use a little bit more range (not much!) to bring it a bit closer in general feel to the Rail Rifle. I like the Tactical Assault Rifle, it looks very viable and looks like it could compete with the Scrambler Rifle in it's own range. Just have some back-up plans in-case these changes are a bit over-powering. The Tactical Assault Rifle might be a little powerful considering that it doesn't have to worry about the Overheat. One request - can we have the names officially changed to Plasma Rifle now? Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2269	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:17:00 - [6] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Bwahahaha, I love the "Range in CM" bit at the bottom Just for you "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 491	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:18:00 - [7] - Quote I definitely love the change to normalized ranges. Hell, it might even help with proto stomping. As for tweaks, keep in mind to keep each weapon's identity. You have already seen the effect of changing identities, when you gave the Scrambler Pistol different behavior and everyone started whining. Another thread had someone propose a higher rof for the Breach AR, for example, which would be the wrong way to go. The Breach is supposed to fire less bullets that hit harder, at slightly longer ranges, but have less of a chance of hitting targets with random spraying. I'm also in favor of giving the Burst AR the five bullet burst back, just for the sake of diversity and to fit in line with the Gallente close-combat affinity. (More bullets = Less chance of missing during the randomness that is close combat) By the way, will this hotfix also change the name of the Assault Rifle? Or is this planned for later?

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2284	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:22:00 - [8] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: I definitely love the change to normalized ranges. Hell, it might even help with proto stomping. As for tweaks, keep in mind to keep each weapon's identity. You have already seen the effect of changing identities, when you gave the Scrambler Pistol different behavior and everyone started whining. Another thread had someone propose a higher rof for the Breach AR, for example, which would be the wrong way to go. The Breach is supposed to fire less bullets that hit harder, at slightly longer ranges, but have less of a chance of hitting targets with random spraying. I'm also in favor of giving the Burst AR the five bullet burst back, just for the sake of diversity and to fit in line with the Gallente close-combat affinity. (More bullets = Less chance of missing during the randomness that is close combat) By the way, will this hotfix also change the name of the Assault Rifle? Or is this planned for later? I am quite fond myself of adding bullets to the burst, and certainly not increasing ROF for the Breach, instead of dmg. Every bullet from that should hurt. Changing that name might mess up so many things, all references in all material and descriptions for instance. I worry about that and feel our resources are better used in fixing "real" issues. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 567	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:23:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. 1. That's a very important step. I'd like to +2 this if I could. Don't trade it off when the complaints come in. 2. The numbers look alright. Though here are my observations: - Why does the BAR advance from 511 to 593 DPS whereas the CR advances from 567 to 594 from ADV to PRO. Are these values correct? The relative increase seems uneven. - What was the thought behind having the ARR being 8% more powerful than the RR itself? - Maybe the whole Assault-tree needs to be toned down a bit. For reference the ACR, maybe the most powerful weapon in the game, is receiving a 9% buff over the current numbers. This seems unnecessary. 3. Would you mind introducing these numbers in steps? You could e.g. go half the way on the changes in hotfix bravo and deploy the rest with the following hotfixes. I'm afraid I can't say anything about these numbers until I've looked at them and if they don't feel well I could only say so after it's too late.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2239	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:24:00 - [10] - Quote I was thinking about it yesterday, why does the same rifle should have different efficiency at range depending on its tier, if there is already a bonus on damage? But i forgot to post, glad you think the same i do. +1 BTW, can we have standard level variants? PSN: ogamega Never f* with a Galdari.

Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1355	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:26:00 - [11] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Bwahahaha, I love the "Range in CM" bit at the bottom 1) I love the idea of eliminating range progression because it brings us closer to Tieracide, which may never happen in Dust 514 but it's something I think we've all generally wanted for a very long time. 2) Breach AR is good but could probably use a little bit more range (not much!) to bring it a bit closer in general feel to the Rail Rifle. I like the Tactical Assault Rifle, it looks very viable and looks like it could compete with the Scrambler Rifle in it's own range. Just have some back-up plans in-case these changes are a bit over-powering. The Tactical Assault Rifle might be a little powerful considering that it doesn't have to worry about the Overheat. One request - can we have the names officially changed to Plasma Rifle now? Regarding the Tac, I was thinking about a faux overheat mechanic, with a heat threshold of around 5-7 shots at pre-nerf RoF (more than you could ever place at range, not enough to burst down heavies at melee) and then "enforce" a much lower RoF until you let it cool down. Basically much faster heat build up but without the cooldown delay or overheat. It's essentially a SCR copy so it might as well share a toned down version of its mechanics. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5999	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:27:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Bwahahaha, I love the "Range in CM" bit at the bottom Just for you Small little addition I want to add is perhaps, if it's necessary, a re-evaluation of the CPU/PG costs of the Scrambler Rifle(s) so they're a bit more on par. They're quite expensive to fit and considering their lack of use, I think it'd be a healthy consideration with the TAR looking like a much more viable alternative for the cost. EDIT: Also, is there any way to increase the zoom so that it can make better use of it's range? Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11046	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:28:00 - [13] - Quote Thank yoooouuuuuu!!! Soon I will run out of things to complain about. Also I'm kind of scared of the AR in your proposal, I don't know if its too much or not, but go through with it, if its too much DPS, it can always be dialed back. I completely support what you are doing here. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2284	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:33:00 - [14] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. 1. That's a very important step. I'd like to +2 this if I could. Don't trade it off when the complaints come in. 2. The numbers look alright. Though here are my observations: - Why does the BAR advance from 511 to 593 DPS whereas the CR advances from 567 to 594 from ADV to PRO. Are these values correct? The relative increase seems uneven. - What was the thought behind having the ARR being 8% more powerful than the RR itself? - Maybe the whole Assault-tree needs to be toned down a bit. For reference the ACR, maybe the most powerful weapon in the game, is receiving a 9% buff over the current numbers. This seems unnecessary. 3. Would you mind introducing these numbers in steps? You could e.g. go half the way on the changes in hotfix bravo and deploy the rest with the following hotfixes. I'm afraid I can't say anything about these numbers until I've looked at them and if they don't feel well I could only say so after it's too late. The numbers are not final, they were quick proposals to get this chart out faster. By all means bring me data in spreadsheets. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

AmlSeb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 83	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:34:00 - [15] - Quote I don-¦t know if this and thiswould fit into a hotfix but I hope so. It would basically put all the ARs and their variants in line with EVE lore. Range would no longer be a static value but pretty relative as it would be an indicator for the accuracy of the weapon and the damage falloff would be linear and only dependent on the type of weapon system you have. This would make the weapons more player skill based as a very good AR user could possibly outrange a very new RR user. Also there would be one major point that important for the EVE lore: The distinction The current rifles all are around the same with only a small difference in both range and dps. In EVE you have without bonuses ranges from 20km to 100 km on capital ships and DPSs of about 2k with blasters and 1k with railguns. That-¦s half the dps possible and 5 times the range not that maximum 10% better dps and 2 times better range. The gap between different variants and racial weapons should be much larger same as bonuses. Range: Tactical(Caldari basic)>Assault(Amarr basic)>Burst(Minmatar basic)>Breach(Gallente basic) DPS: Breach>Burst>Assault>Tactical Cheers, Aml First day veteran, Logi and Commander Soon a Legionnaire AmlSeb on Twitter
Zaria Min Deir Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 722	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:34:00 - [16] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Bwahahaha, I love the "Range in CM" bit at the bottom Just for you Small little addition I want to add is perhaps, if it's necessary, a re-evaluation of the CPU/PG costs of the Scrambler Rifle(s) so they're a bit more on par. They're quite expensive to fit and considering their lack of use, I think it'd be a healthy consideration with the TAR looking like a much more viable alternative for the cost. EDIT: Also, is there any way to increase the zoom so that it can make better use of it's range? Conversely, is there any way to decrease the zoom on the burst AR so that it, too, can make better use of its range? Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11046	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:41:00 - [17] - Quote Actually not sure what the point of the breach is, I like that you substantively buffed it, but less DPS and same range as regular AR, the hipfire accuracy difference between breach and current AR isn't that noticeable, to me at least; make sure other aspects like accuracy and dispersion, etc are high enough to warrant its use. I guess the higher alpha might make it worth it? but I don't know. Just please make sure it actually has a purpose. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1596	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:45:00 - [18] - Quote My brain meats just 'sploded. All I can see is lines, letters, numbers and multi-colored dots.... Am I having a seizure? Also, +1 for #3 alone =D PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Zaria Min Deir Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 722	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:48:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. 1) This all fine in theory, but you might want to look at some other factors as well. I think there should be a progression between the tiers, if we have them at all. The minor increase in damage alone does not justify the dramatic cost increase going from std to proto level. So, eliminating range progression to make balancing easier may be a great idea, but I ask you to also look into compensating somewhat for that lack of progression in the prices of the weapons then. 2) Yes, YES, yes? Just make sure you don't overdo the TAR buff, we don't want anoter Uprising 1.0 ;) 3) YES! Though, looking at your suggested numbers, I think you are being a little conservative with that .... Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11047	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:54:00 - [20] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. 1) This all fine in theory, but you might want to look at some other factors as well. I think there should be a progression between the tiers, if we have them at all. The minor increase in damage alone does not justify the dramatic cost increase going from std to proto level. So, eliminating range progression to make balancing easier may be a great idea, but I ask you to also look into compensating somewhat for that lack of progression in the prices of the weapons then. 2) Yes, YES, yes? Just make sure you don't overdo the TAR buff, we don't want anoter Uprising 1.0 ;) 3) YES! Though, looking at your suggested numbers, I think you are being a little conservative with that .... Don't fear the TAR, still less range, and less DPS compared to SCR, and SCR is alright. Also SCR has a charge shot which the TAR does not. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+

Rabbit C515 Die Valkyrja General Tso's Alliance 14	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:13:00 - [21] - Quote after eliminate range progression, does it worth to invest so much more CPU/PG to use prototype weapon as it only give you a small DPS increase?
MINA Longstrike 845	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:00:00 - [22] - Quote Is it possible for variant rifles to be created to fill the gaps in the chart? Tac rr / cr, breach cr / scr, burst rr / scr? Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Zaria Min Deir Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 722	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:11:00 - [23] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. 1) This all fine in theory, but you might want to look at some other factors as well. I think there should be a progression between the tiers, if we have them at all. The minor increase in damage alone does not justify the dramatic cost increase going from std to proto level. So, eliminating range progression to make balancing easier may be a great idea, but I ask you to also look into compensating somewhat for that lack of progression in the prices of the weapons then. 2) Yes, YES, yes? Just make sure you don't overdo the TAR buff, we don't want another Uprising 1.0 ;) 3) YES! Though, looking at your suggested numbers, I think you are being a little conservative with that .... Don't fear the TAR, still less range, and less DPS compared to SCR, and SCR is alright. Also SCR has a charge shot which the TAR does not. Who's fearing anything? Just saying, everyone running TAR with a CalLogi was boring then, everyone running TAR with a CalScout would be boring now. :P Point is, I am quite certain there are way more people that have SP in ARs than in SCRs (even though SCR has been considerably more powerful at least on paper for quite a long time now), so there will still be more TARs on the battlefield than SCRs if this buff goes as planned, I'd assume. Though, shotguns and hmg are still going to be the most common thing on the killfeed... Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2404	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:18:00 - [24] - Quote I'm a little confused. Isn't this showing the dps of your optimal range but the listed ranges are effective ranges?
BL4CKST4R warravens Final Resolution. 2760	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:44:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. This... this is good Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned The breach AR needs higher range though, its DPS + range are extremely low, the AR would be a better breach rifle. Also the Burst AR is slightly lacking in dps and range compared to the CR. TAR and AR are pretty good based on this data though. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Heinrich Jagerblitzen Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1822	Posted - 2014.06.09 12:17:00 - [26] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current Great stuff here, the need for varying ranges in quality is completely unnecessary and creates too much complexity in moment-to-moment decision making. Streamlining the ranges enables players to have a much clearer picture of what engagement range to use with a particular weapon, enabling more meaningful tactical decisions based on a particular weapon you encounter. After all, while it is easy to tell what weapon is being used against you, it is NOT easy to tell what quality, unless you're keeping track of names, killfeeds, and are able to identify the shooter. This is a lot to ask of players, and by streamlining the ranges across all qualities of a given variant, players can now make much more informed choices when being shot and be able to exert more control over moving themselves into (or out of) effective range. I wholeheartedly support this approach.
Heinrich Jagerblitzen Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1823	Posted - 2014.06.09 12:20:00 - [27] - Quote Rabbit C515 wrote: after eliminate range progression, does it worth to invest so much more CPU/PG to use prototype weapon as it only give you a small DPS increase? Is this a problem? Players have been frustrated by the power gap between standard and proto for ages now, I see this as a healthy move in the right direction. I'm fine with greater cost for diminished gains - Some players will want to maximize performance and pay the cost, others will realize there's better efficiency in using cheaper gear. This has the desired effect of normalizing some of the power levels encountered and create a more balanced, fun experience.
Grimmiers 580	Posted - 2014.06.09 12:26:00 - [28] - Quote My idea was to have the racial weapon mimic the other class of assault rifles while keeping their flavor, but that seems like a no no. I'm one of the people that wanted a higher rof on the breach since it was a closer ranged weapon. I do like these proposed changes though since anything that makes these weapons better is a good thing. 50.99 dmg and 500 rof would give the breach AR the same dps as the plasma AR now at 424.92 per second. It's kinda like how the assault rail rifle attempts to reach the plasma rifle's rof, but stops at 600 instead of matching it at 750. They keep their identity while pushing the boundaries of the class their trying to mimic based on their racial perks. Anyways, the reason the damage is so great between the plasma burst is the rate of fire, so are you thinking about making them the same to close the gap between the 2 tiers?
Grimmiers 580	Posted - 2014.06.09 12:34:00 - [29] - Quote Rabbit C515 wrote: after eliminate range progression, does it worth to invest so much more CPU/PG to use prototype weapon as it only give you a small DPS increase? The fitting cost is sometimes similar to a damage mod without considering the range increase, so it's not like the extra damage isn't worth it. The price difference could always be tweaked though.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10236	Posted - 2014.06.09 12:49:00 - [30] - Quote Hugs Rattati MY PLASMA RIFLE MY GLORIOUS PLASMA RIFLE IT SHALL RISE FROM THE ASHES ONCE MORE Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC

Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10236	Posted - 2014.06.09 12:51:00 - [31] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Sole Fenychs wrote: I definitely love the change to normalized ranges. Hell, it might even help with proto stomping. As for tweaks, keep in mind to keep each weapon's identity. You have already seen the effect of changing identities, when you gave the Scrambler Pistol different behavior and everyone started whining. Another thread had someone propose a higher rof for the Breach AR, for example, which would be the wrong way to go. The Breach is supposed to fire less bullets that hit harder, at slightly longer ranges, but have less of a chance of hitting targets with random spraying. I'm also in favor of giving the Burst AR the five bullet burst back, just for the sake of diversity and to fit in line with the Gallente close-combat affinity. (More bullets = Less chance of missing during the randomness that is close combat) By the way, will this hotfix also change the name of the Assault Rifle? Or is this planned for later? I am quite fond myself of adding bullets to the burst, and certainly not increasing ROF for the Breach, instead of dmg. Every bullet from that should hurt. Changing that name might mess up so many things, all references in all material and descriptions for instance. I worry about that and feel our resources are better used in fixing "real" issues. Please do not add bullets to the burst. Just reduce the burst delay to something that isn't god awful, normalize ROF between tiers and then tweak from there. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1468	Posted - 2014.06.09 12:56:00 - [32] - Quote I agree with others that the Breach AR looks like it doesn't really have a high enough range/DPS ratio to have its own place on the battle field. Either an increase in range, which would fit because the RR is breach and has huge range, or an increase in DPS, which once again fits the breach philosophy, might help with this. As many others have also said I really love what you have done but can't really comment too much until I get my digital hands on weapons with these new stats to test them out. I will attempt to make some more comparisons when I get back from work though by making a DPS/Range ratio table and related graph. That will make comparison of the various range/DPS progressions we are seeing a bit easier to process. Thank you, as always, for listening to our feedback Rattati and Logibro. I love feeling like I am part of the design process, which is huge for player retention among our numbers obsessed masses. Fun > Realism
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1394	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:10:00 - [33] - Quote Looking good there Rattati. As someone else already mentioned we've had in the past too much wahwah with changes to weapon stats, without giving plenty of time to see if they work first. We you please stick to your guns a little longer with this round of hotfixes. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10238	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:34:00 - [34] - Quote Hey Rattati, can you give us the stats used in the graph? For example the TAR, I can see the DPS increased, but is it from ROF or Damage or both? If both than what combination? Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 734	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:35:00 - [35] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: I'm a little confused. Isn't this showing the dps of your optimal range but the listed ranges are effective ranges? The listed DPS corresponds to the distance in CM on the bottom. CCP Rattati wrote: ... What I would like: DPS ranking: SR > TAR > BAR > CR > AR > ACR > ASR> ARR > BRAR > RR Sustained DPS (charge time, heat, & reload speed factored in): BRAR > RR > AR > ACR > ASR > ARR > BAR > CR > TAR > SR CR Adding a firing delay between bursts, so there won't be a burst weapon that doesn't have a firing delay, and Increase reload speed, so it'll a lower sustained DPS as a trade-off for it's high DPS. [Clear roles for infantry weapon types:] Tactical, Burst, Assault, Breach Breach weapons Has 2nd lowest magazine size, 2nd lowest recoil, lower RoF and lower DPS in return for 2nd highest damage per shot, higher accuracy & higher precision (lower dispersion), fastest reload speed, and higher sustained DPS. Assault Has lowest recoil, 2nd highest sustained DPS & reload speed, highest RoF and magazine size, at the cost of lowest accuracy. Burst Fires in a burst, 2nd highest DPS & accuracy, best precision, and 3rd highest damage per shot, at the cost of having the 2nd highest recoil, 3rd lowest magazine size, 2nd lowest reload speed and sustained DPS. Tactical Highest DPS, accuracy, and damage per shot, at the cost of having the highest recoil, lowest magazine size, precision (higher dispersion), reload speed, and sustained DPS. We also need the other racial variants of the main rifles. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 31	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:38:00 - [36] - Quote Question, do these numbers take into account that the Combat Rifle (and all Bullet Based Weapons) do effectively 5% more damage than the other weapons due to their damage type?
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1544	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:39:00 - [37] - Quote Apart from the TAR buff and a range boost to low-end weapons, I see little difference between the Current and Proposed visualizations. Not much is changing. Let's roll it out as-is then finetune as needed. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 734	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:46:00 - [38] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Apart from the TAR buff and a range boost to low-end weapons, I see little difference between the Current and Proposed visualizations. Not much is changing. Let's roll it out as-is then finetune as needed. Current has far more circles of the same type across more horizontal space, which means that there is a range progression with the tiers, and the current also has a big imbalance: RR not sacrificing much DPS for it's range and plasma rifles not getting a lot of DPS for their short range. The proposed plan would alleviate a lot of those problems. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1545	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:54:00 - [39] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Apart from the TAR buff and a range boost to low-end weapons, I see little difference between the Current and Proposed visualizations. Not much is changing. Let's roll it out as-is then finetune as needed. Current has far more circles of the same type across more horizontal space, which means that there is a range progression with the tiers, and the current also has a big imbalance: RR not sacrificing much DPS for it's range and plasma rifles not getting a lot of DPS for their short range. The proposed plan would alleviate a lot of those problems. Wait ... Doublechecking the math Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 164	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:57:00 - [40] - Quote I have always disliked that the Combat Rifle has outperformed the AR at medium range. I think its effectiveness at this range shouldn't be as good as the AR. You should have to cross the threshold from medium into short range to dominate with the CR. It's a light HMG, why shouldn't it perform like one? Hotfix Alpha wasn't enough to make the AR a viable option over the CR. Looking at those numbers, I'm not even going to try the BRAR to see what the 3% buff did, because this confirms my suspicion. My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1547	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:16:00 - [41] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Apart from the TAR buff and a range boost to low-end weapons, I see little difference between the Current and Proposed visualizations. Not much is changing. Let's roll it out as-is then finetune as needed. Current has far more circles of the same type across more horizontal space, which means that there is a range progression with the tiers, and the current also has a big imbalance: RR not sacrificing much DPS for it's range and plasma rifles not getting a lot of DPS for their short range. The proposed plan would alleviate a lot of those problems. Wait ... Doublechecking the math OK ... done now. See Response to Data You were saying? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2404	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:26:00 - [42] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: I'm a little confused. Isn't this showing the dps of your optimal range but the listed ranges are effective ranges? The listed DPS corresponds to the distance in CM on the bottom. I just don't think this is true. I don't think that the 30% of a CR DPS is 594 in its effective range.
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 165	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:38:00 - [43] - Quote Upon further inspection of the graphs, I like the trend that I am seeing, especially with the TAR and BAR. However I fear this still may not be enough for the AR to compete against the CR. Think about it. Although their DPS will be higher, the likelihood of landing every bullet is much higher with a CR, as it is fully automatic fire. These changes may convince me to spend another point in AR Sharpshooter, but it simply will continue to be outperformed by the other Light weapons. As I said in my last post, I always thought that AR should be better at medium range than the CR, because the CR is supposed to be a short range weapon that is still somewhat effective at medium range, but shouldn't outperform the AR at that range. My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1
Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect 1330	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:50:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. Please ensure that this applies to sniper rifles as well. There should not be a high damage, virtually zero risk role.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1550	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:18:00 - [45] - Quote An after-thought ... I keep coming back to that 80% DPS buff for the TAR. This massive buff can only be delivered via RoF or DMG. If delivered via RoF, we risk a return of modded controllers. Definitely not cool. If delivered via DMG, you'll be looking at a headshot monster. Maybe OK, Maybe OP. If delivered by both, you'll be looking at modded-controller, headshot monster. (just joking) ... kinda Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1606	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:19:00 - [46] - Quote deleted PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1606	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:20:00 - [47] - Quote Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: Upon further inspection of the graphs, I like the trend that I am seeing, especially with the TAR and BAR. However I fear this still may not be enough for the AR to compete against the CR. Think about it. Although their DPS will be higher, the likelihood of landing every bullet is much higher with a CR, as it is fully automatic fire. These changes may convince me to spend another point in AR Sharpshooter, but it simply will continue to be outperformed by the other Light weapons. As I said in my last post, I always thought that AR should be better at medium range than the CR, because the CR is supposed to be a short range weapon that is still somewhat effective at medium range, but shouldn't outperform the AR at that range. Plasma < Combat < Rail < Laser ^Range profiles PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10243	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:21:00 - [48] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: Upon further inspection of the graphs, I like the trend that I am seeing, especially with the TAR and BAR. However I fear this still may not be enough for the AR to compete against the CR. Think about it. Although their DPS will be higher, the likelihood of landing every bullet is much higher with a CR, as it is fully automatic fire. These changes may convince me to spend another point in AR Sharpshooter, but it simply will continue to be outperformed by the other Light weapons. As I said in my last post, I always thought that AR should be better at medium range than the CR, because the CR is supposed to be a short range weapon that is still somewhat effective at medium range, but shouldn't outperform the AR at that range. That's in reverse. The AR is supposed to be the CQC beast, not the CR. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1606	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:23:00 - [49] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: Upon further inspection of the graphs, I like the trend that I am seeing, especially with the TAR and BAR. However I fear this still may not be enough for the AR to compete against the CR. Think about it. Although their DPS will be higher, the likelihood of landing every bullet is much higher with a CR, as it is fully automatic fire. These changes may convince me to spend another point in AR Sharpshooter, but it simply will continue to be outperformed by the other Light weapons. As I said in my last post, I always thought that AR should be better at medium range than the CR, because the CR is supposed to be a short range weapon that is still somewhat effective at medium range, but shouldn't outperform the AR at that range. That's in reverse. The AR is supposed to be the CQC beast, not the CR. Yeah, damn forums messed up my post. Didn't know having words connected with "<" 's caused an HTML error I was trying to say that myself. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
I-Shayz-I I-----I 3644	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:26:00 - [50] - Quote Increasing them to their prototype range seems like a bad idea, but who knows. While most people want a buff to the tactical, breach, and burst ARs, please make sure to keep them less effective (or with limited range) compared to the respective racial rifle. These AR variants make it so that you only need one skill to use all sorts of different use weapons, but that diversity needs a tradeoff for effectiveness. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1102	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:31:00 - [51] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. ...snip... 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. First, I really like the idea of evening out the ranges by tier. Solid move. Second, making the AR a solid player out to mid range is also a much needed fix. This brings me to your comment about RRs. I run these pretty exclusively and have since the first day they came out and I think you can adjust them BUT you can quickly put the weapon in a very bad UP spot if you aren't careful and/or not utilize the variants to give options to players. 1) Range vs DPS, no issue with that as long as you consider how long a player might have to keep tracking and putting accurate fire on a moving target bouncing in and out of cover to kill him. It would not be a good thing if the RR (base model) were to simply become a harassing weapon that struggles to finish similar meta level equipped targets. Quick note on EVE comparisons...in EVE your SP investments and modules determine your accuracy and ability to put DPS on target at range and you have a ton of skills and mods that enable that....very different in this game obviously. 2) What are the average kill ranges for the RR? I've often wondered about that since mostly what we are talking about is potential range overmatch. Subjectively, the times where I'm truly out of effective range of an opponent and I'm firing on him are in the minority. The other subjective note is that even when I do have my target effectively outranged...at lest one of his buddies has me in his optimal. 3) if you make changes to the base RR then you need to keep the ARR as a viable mid / short range option. For example, when I run logi you are pretty much driven to being closer in the fight to support your guys...I would like to have a Cal light weapon that remains viable for me when I'm doing this. TL:DR...exploring changes can be positive but be careful with changes; it's a very fine line between balanced and useless. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14413	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:41:00 - [52] - Quote Could you finally show the effective and maximum ranges of weapons in game? Glad to see you're tackling this stuff either way
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2404	Posted - 2014.06.09 16:20:00 - [53] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Could you finally show the effective and maximum ranges of weapons in game? Glad to see you're tackling this stuff either way I think they are going off of the numbers (and SDE) from the 1.7 devblog. It's showing the optimal and effective ranges. But yeah, having it in game would be nice. At the effective range the DPS should be 30% of what it is inside of the optimal range. I think they are miscommunicating DPS in some way here. But comparing effective range DPS is still useful. But looking just at effective range DPS and not optimal isn't so helpful. I think a comparison of other competing rifles at optimal ranges matters too. If some weapons can dominate your DPS outside your optimal, then what really is your role?
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14316	Posted - 2014.06.09 16:33:00 - [54] - Quote I like a lot of this but that TAR buff is monstrous. Be [u]very[/u[ careful with that. I strongly recommend only trying a partial buff with such a huge change in this hotfix, and then if changes are still needed continuing it up. It's really nice to see a proper tradeoff for range now, although I do wonder how some of this potentially extremely powerful stuff will turn out. Exercise caution with those AR buffs. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2404	Posted - 2014.06.09 16:52:00 - [55] - Quote Just so we are clear CCP Rattati, it looks like you are listing the DPS inside a weapon's optimal but at the effective ranges of each weapon. In reality, the listed dps should be 70% lower than what you have at these ranges. That is unless you are eliminating the effective range progression for all rifles and making DPS constant up to the effective range?
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15396	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:02:00 - [56] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Actually not sure what the point of the breach is, I like that you substantively buffed it, but less DPS and same range as regular AR, the hipfire accuracy difference between breach and current AR isn't that noticeable, to me at least; make sure other aspects like accuracy and dispersion, etc are high enough to warrant its use. I guess the higher alpha might make it worth it? but I don't know. Just please make sure it actually has a purpose. Breach and Tactical are like the M14 Battle Rifles in comparison to the M16 assault rifles. They're basically firing full sized ammo. One is emphasis on accuracy and one for front line use. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Gallente Logistics =// Unlocked
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 508	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:12:00 - [57] - Quote Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: I have always disliked that the Combat Rifle has outperformed the AR at medium range. I think its effectiveness at this range shouldn't be as good as the AR. You should have to cross the threshold from medium into short range to dominate with the CR. It's a light HMG, why shouldn't it perform like one? Hotfix Alpha wasn't enough to make the AR a viable option over the CR. Looking at those numbers, I'm not even going to try the BRAR to see what the 3% buff did, because this confirms my suspicion. CR should be better than AR at medium range AR should be stronger at shorter range. "Shine bright like a diamond"
Viktor Hadah Jr Negative-Impact The East India Co. 4156	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:12:00 - [58] - Quote I'd say just take out all the AR variants make it simpler less things to balance and maintain... Viktor for CPM I'll ring for free(Multiple roles, 50Mil SP) Chat Channel: Vik PC
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 3313	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:14:00 - [59] - Quote I'd love to see the breach get a larger mag, otherwise it feels pretty good. CR/ACR are still doing insane amounts of dmg. Rail is in a good place, but is still to good at CQC. ScR feels pretty right. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1550	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:18:00 - [60] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Actually not sure what the point of the breach is, I like that you substantively buffed it, but less DPS and same range as regular AR, the hipfire accuracy difference between breach and current AR isn't that noticeable, to me at least; make sure other aspects like accuracy and dispersion, etc are high enough to warrant its use. I guess the higher alpha might make it worth it? but I don't know. Just please make sure it actually has a purpose. Breach and Tactical are like the M14 Battle Rifles in comparison to the M16 assault rifles. They're basically firing full sized ammo. One is emphasis on accuracy and one for front line use. Not to be confused with the M1014 or SPAS-15, both of which are wildly ineffective outside of 5 meters. These are quite literally only used in combat to pick locks. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2404	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:45:00 - [61] - Quote Alright, I took CCP Rattati's Rifle Range chart with his DPS numbers for proto weapons, and then converted the DPS to what each weapon would output at their effective ranges. Here's the new chart I thought his chart was misleading because it was showing the optimal range DPS at effective range. I wish i could connect the slopes of the different rifle types here, but this is what I have at short notice. I also tried to race-color coordinate.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1277	Posted - 2014.06.09 18:16:00 - [62] - Quote All Gallente rifles and variants need to have the highest DPS of their type, and the lowest range of ttype. All caldari rifles and their variants need to have the highest range and lowest DPS of their variants. The other two races should fall in the middle, as appropriate. The reason is, the variants are a copy of another races rifle, but still with the racial flavor of the parent rifle. Thus, the breach AR should have the highest range and lowest DPS of the AR variants, but have the lowest range and highest DPS when compared to the other races breach variants (breach scrambler rifle, breach combat rifle, and regular rail rifle) I will create a spreadsheet for this if someone can tell me how I can upload it. :/ That's what you get!! - DA Rick
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2404	Posted - 2014.06.09 18:23:00 - [63] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: All Gallente rifles and variants need to have the highest DPS of their type, and the lowest range of ttype. All caldari rifles and their variants need to have the highest range and lowest DPS of their variants. The other two races should fall in the middle, as appropriate. The reason is, the variants are a copy of another races rifle, but still with the racial flavor of the parent rifle. Thus, the breach AR should have the highest range and lowest DPS of the AR variants, but have the lowest range and highest DPS when compared to the other races breach variants (breach scrambler rifle, breach combat rifle, and regular rail rifle) I will create a spreadsheet for this if someone can tell me how I can upload it. :/ Not necessarily. Damage isn't always the most significant factor in taking something down. When going against suits that are 750HP+ then, it is much more significant, but against <500 HP suits, things like RoF, reload speed, and other accuracy factors make a big difference.
Argetlam Thorson Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 58	Posted - 2014.06.09 19:08:00 - [64] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. 1) This all fine in theory, but you might want to look at some other factors as well. I think there should be a progression between the tiers, if we have them at all. The minor increase in damage alone does not justify the dramatic cost increase going from std to proto level. So, eliminating range progression to make balancing easier may be a great idea, but I ask you to also look into compensating somewhat for that lack of progression in the prices of the weapons then. 2) Yes, YES, yes? Just make sure you don't overdo the TAR buff, we don't want anoter Uprising 1.0 ;) 3) YES! Though, looking at your suggested numbers, I think you are being a little conservative with that .... Don't fear the TAR, still less range, and less DPS compared to SCR, and SCR is alright. Also SCR has a charge shot which the TAR does not. Just keep the overheat of the ScR in mind if you start looking at tweaking it vs TAR. It does damage to you and renders you uuseless and vulnerable for that period of time.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3040	Posted - 2014.06.09 19:37:00 - [65] - Quote So I haven't read this whole thread but.. Please Rattati think about fixing the variants across the board. Specifically, fix the assault and breach variants. Assault - Shorter range, higher RoF - CQC oriented Tactical - Semi-Auto, High Range, High Damage, Low RoF Breach - Long range, low RoF - mid-long range oriented Burst - Semi-Auto, Mid-long range, mid RoF (or whatever) Things like the assault SMG and the breach plasma rifle make zero sense. The design concept of each of those rifles fight against their intended purpose. The Assault SMG is superior to the SMG in every way... its higher RoF AND long range and the breach version of anything in this game is horribly bad. Why? Because the low rof weapons do not make sense in CQC. Fix the design concepts at a core and every weapon can have a variant that makes sense. It should go high rof, high damage, combined with low range and low rof, low damage combined with long range.
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1001	Posted - 2014.06.09 20:19:00 - [66] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. Buff ScR... Ever since nerf, you now have to take many, many more shots to down armor targets which leads to an overheat.
AmlSeb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 84	Posted - 2014.06.09 21:30:00 - [67] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. Looks at this Looks at the graph/diagram thing The tactical variant still has the highest DPS despite having the best range I-¦d be fine if you had to reload more often during a fight 1v1 but you don-¦t have to First day veteran, Logi and Commander Soon a Legionnaire AmlSeb on Twitter
emtbraincase Savage Bullet 179	Posted - 2014.06.09 21:43:00 - [68] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. I've been quite the pessimistic bastard since fanfest on these forums, but this is something that I don't find any fault with, yet. Non-constructive, but civil AND positive for a change. Thanks for this, I think.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1226	Posted - 2014.06.09 22:32:00 - [69] - Quote Buffing or nerfing based on pure Range Vs. DPS can only work if recoil, dispersion, and other factors are all the same. Which I don't see being the case. The numbers look nice on paper, but on the ground, recoil and dispersion quickly make up the deficiencies. Great DPS is wasted if you can't land more than a couple of shots at a time. We need more data. Everything we can get from recoil, and dispersion, to rate of fire, and rate at switch dispersion increases / decreases based on length of fire. Let's run all these numbers and see what we get, as opposed to a simple DPS / Range Graph please. The Black Jackal for CPM1
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14331	Posted - 2014.06.09 22:36:00 - [70] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: The numbers look nice on paper, but on the ground, recoil and dispersion quickly make up the deficiencies. Great DPS is wasted if you can't land more than a couple of shots at a time. Dispersion and recoil is pretty similar on all the rifles, though. The TAR is the only one which really deviates from a fairly tight hipfire spread, and recoil is negligible on pretty much all of them. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1281	Posted - 2014.06.10 01:06:00 - [71] - Quote If rail rifle DPs is being lowered (which I'm fine with) then recoil needs to be lowered as well. Honestly, the rail rifle needs to be the tactical rifle, and the scrambler needs to be breach. Caldari are about .making every shot count, and the tactical rifles are all about making every shot count. Breach is more about spraying an area. Less so than the assault versions, but in any case Caldari are better served with a tactical. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
voidfaction Void of Faction 267	Posted - 2014.06.10 01:29:00 - [72] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: If rail rifle DPs is being lowered (which I'm fine with) then recoil needs to be lowered as well. Honestly, the rail rifle needs to be the tactical rifle, and the scrambler needs to be breach. Caldari are about .making every shot count, and the tactical rifles are all about making every shot count. Breach is more about spraying an area. Less so than the assault versions, but in any case Caldari are better served with a tactical. high dispersion/kick low accuracy hipfire. make it tactical but make it suck if you dont aim down sites so its not a CqC rifle.
Talon Paetznick II Gallente Federation Resistance 7	Posted - 2014.06.10 01:36:00 - [73] - Quote improve scrambler rifle optics you just cant see very far with it I would love to see some magnification that makes it a viable mid-long range sub-sniper everything else with it is fine hell half the clip size and double range and zoom while keeping damage and I would be more than happy or just make a long range sharpshooter variant with these concepts applied maybe a breach variant but more range,zoom, and accuracy instead of damage or sharpshooter variants across the board for CR, SnR, ScR, RR,and AR I wouldn't expect this for a hot-fix but maybe for 1.9 getting killed by ion pistol = dropping the soap
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1571	Posted - 2014.06.10 02:04:00 - [74] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: We need more data. Everything we can get from recoil, and dispersion, to rate of fire, and rate at switch dispersion increases / decreases based on length of fire. Analyze all that data? Not my job, bro. How 'bout we let Rattati do his job, bro? Our job's to find out what gun works best, then tattle on each other for spamming it. We can't do our job effectively until the guns are in our hands. So, I say we get out-of-the-way and let 'em shake things up! RoF and DMG are readily fine-tuned; if something gets broken, it won't stay broken for long. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Llast 326 An Arkhos 3533	Posted - 2014.06.10 02:16:00 - [75] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Our job's to find out what gun works best, then tattle on each other for spamming it. We can't do our job effectively until the guns are in our hands. LMAO It's so true Adipem Nothi wrote: I fully intend stab and teabag each and every one of you who moans for an ScR buff. There isn't a Scout alive that gun can't insta-gib. If it doesn't work on 1500HP gallente heavies, then don't shoot it at 1500HP gallente heavies. There are other ways to kill heavies ... like asking Rattati nerf them. * hint * Knives are sharp and ready, If you need a Hand you know where to find me KRRROOOOOOM
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1228	Posted - 2014.06.10 03:17:00 - [76] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: We need more data. Everything we can get from recoil, and dispersion, to rate of fire, and rate at switch dispersion increases / decreases based on length of fire. Analyze all that data? Not my job, bro. How 'bout we let Rattati do his job, bro? Our job's to find out what gun works best, then tattle on each other for spamming it. We can't do our job effectively until the guns are in our hands. So I say we stop the hand-wringing, get out-of-the-way and let Rattati shake things up! RoF and DMG are readily fine-tuned; if something gets broken, it won't stay broken for long. PS: I fully intend stab and teabag each and every one of you who moans for an ScR buff. There isn't a Scout alive that gun can't insta-gib. If it doesn't work on 1500HP gallente heavies, then don't shoot it at 1500HP gallente heavies. There are other ways to kill heavies ... like asking Rattati nerf them. * hint * Not asking for a ScR buff, jic you were prone to stab me for that. But Rattati is here asking for community input. The community can't really 'input' to the best of it's ability without all the relevant numbers. And dispersion, kick, accuracy etc are all balancing tools beyond DPS / Range. I don't want every tool to be a hammer. it makes everything look like it needs to be bashed the crap out of. If there are ways to inspire balance without ONLY affecting DPS / Range, I would like the opportunity to present them to rattati with hard figures behind it. The Black Jackal for CPM1
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 242	Posted - 2014.06.10 05:51:00 - [77] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: I'm a little confused. Isn't this showing the dps of your optimal range but the listed ranges are effective ranges? The listed DPS corresponds to the distance in CM on the bottom. CCP Rattati wrote: ... What I would like: DPS ranking: SR > TAR > BAR > CR > AR > ACR > ASR> ARR > BRAR > RR Sustained DPS (charge time, heat, & reload speed factored in): BRAR > RR > AR > ACR > ASR > ARR > BAR > CR > TAR > SR CR Adding a firing delay between bursts, so there won't be a burst weapon that doesn't have a firing delay, and Increase reload speed, so it'll a lower sustained DPS as a trade-off for it's high DPS. [Clear roles for infantry weapon types:] Tactical, Burst, Assault, Breach Breach weapons Has 2nd lowest magazine size, 2nd lowest recoil, lower RoF and lower DPS in return for 2nd highest damage per shot, higher accuracy & higher precision (lower dispersion), fastest reload speed, and higher sustained DPS. Assault Has lowest recoil, 2nd highest sustained DPS & reload speed, highest RoF and magazine size, at the cost of lowest accuracy. Burst Fires in a burst, 2nd highest DPS & accuracy, best precision, and 3rd highest damage per shot, at the cost of having the 2nd highest recoil, 3rd lowest magazine size, 2nd lowest reload speed and sustained DPS. Tactical Highest DPS, accuracy, and damage per shot, at the cost of having the highest recoil, lowest magazine size, precision (higher dispersion), reload speed (high heat cost per shot), and sustained DPS. We also need the other racial variants of the main rifles. I'm looking forward to the Breach Combat Rifle. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 242	Posted - 2014.06.10 06:01:00 - [78] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: If rail rifle DPs is being lowered (which I'm fine with) then recoil needs to be lowered as well. Honestly, the rail rifle needs to be the tactical rifle, and the scrambler needs to be breach. Caldari are about .making every shot count, and the tactical rifles are all about making every shot count. Breach is more about spraying an area. Less so than the assault versions, but in any case Caldari are better served with a tactical. high dispersion/kick low accuracy hipfire. make it tactical but make it suck if you dont aim down sites so its not a CqC rifle. THIS Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 243	Posted - 2014.06.10 06:09:00 - [79] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. I like the direction this is going, but I still feel that the RR family range is still too long... Any thought on introducing a racial advantage for each Rifle when paired to the appropriate suit? (ie AR with Gallente, CR with Minmatar, etc) Maybe make the weapon perform 5% 'better' somehow... +5% range maybe? Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
AmlSeb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 84	Posted - 2014.06.10 06:14:00 - [80] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: voidfaction wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: If rail rifle DPs is being lowered (which I'm fine with) then recoil needs to be lowered as well. Honestly, the rail rifle needs to be the tactical rifle, and the scrambler needs to be breach. Caldari are about .making every shot count, and the tactical rifles are all about making every shot count. Breach is more about spraying an area. Less so than the assault versions, but in any case Caldari are better served with a tactical. high dispersion/kick low accuracy hipfire. make it tactical but make it suck if you dont aim down sites so its not a CqC rifle. THIS Caldari: Get the best out of your weapon Gallente: Rush in and shoot Minmatar: Get in empty your mag, get out Amarr: Get in and shoot and shoot and shoot... Caldari should have the tactical, best range, lowest dps (but keep the charge function) Gallente should have the one with the best DPS and lowest range, preferably the breach as the name fits more Minmatar is fine with burst but they need faster rof, smaller mags and longer reload time Amarr should have one for longer fights with low rof, high damage and a large magazine almost LMG like, Assault as the name fits more Assault for sustained fire Breach for high dps cqc Burst for hit'n'run Tactical for long range high precision fights I posted the link to the post earlier First day veteran, Logi and Commander Soon a Legionnaire AmlSeb on Twitter


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2390	Posted - 2014.06.10 07:50:00 - [81] - Quote Proposed numbers in a separate tab here: Numbers "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Rabbit C515 Die Valkyrja General Tso's Alliance 17	Posted - 2014.06.10 08:08:00 - [82] - Quote why nerf the rof of scrambler rifle? from pervious discussion rattari you said Quote: Data says that Scramblers are either considerably worse or inhabit a radically different role on the battlefield.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2390	Posted - 2014.06.10 08:39:00 - [83] - Quote Rabbit C515 wrote: why nerf the rof of scrambler rifle? from pervious discussion rattari you said Quote: Data says that Scramblers are either considerably worse or inhabit a radically different role on the battlefield. Just number of digits shown in the spreadsheet, 0.085 rounded up to 0.09. Sorry about that. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1284	Posted - 2014.06.10 08:44:00 - [84] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: If rail rifle DPs is being lowered (which I'm fine with) then recoil needs to be lowered as well. Honestly, the rail rifle needs to be the tactical rifle, and the scrambler needs to be breach. Caldari are about .making every shot count, and the tactical rifles are all about making every shot count. Breach is more about spraying an area. Less so than the assault versions, but in any case Caldari are better served with a tactical. high dispersion/kick low accuracy hipfire. make it tactical but make it suck if you dont aim down sites so its not a CqC rifle. I'm down for that. Then use the MAgsec as your cqc weapon. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2262	Posted - 2014.06.10 08:47:00 - [85] - Quote What is exactly fire interval? Is it ROF? PSN: ogamega I'm not a chef, i'm just a man who likes to cook.
Rabbit C515 Die Valkyrja General Tso's Alliance 18	Posted - 2014.06.10 08:48:00 - [86] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just number of digits shown in the spreadsheet, 0.085 rounded up to 0.09. Sorry about that. as i have posted before after eliminate range progression, does it worth to invest so much more CPU/PG to use prototype weapon that only give you a small DPS increase?
Rabbit C515 Die Valkyrja General Tso's Alliance 18	Posted - 2014.06.10 08:51:00 - [87] - Quote shaman oga wrote: What is exactly fire interval? Is it ROF? yes, the unit is "second per shot" you may see some data said assault rifle have rof of 750, the unit is "rounds per minute"
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1284	Posted - 2014.06.10 08:53:00 - [88] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Proposed numbers in a separate tab here: Numbers So far they're looking better. Again, all Gallente rifles should be highest DPS, lowest range in comparison to the other races variants. So the breach AR should have the highest DPS, lowest range out of all racial breach rifles, while the same breach AR should have the highest range and lowest DPS of all the AR variants. So, given a particular variant type (breach, tactical, burst, assault) The order should always be: High DPS Low DPS Short Range Long Range Gallente - - - - - - - - - -Minmatar - - - - - - - - - - Amarr - - - - - - - - - - Caldari In this way, each race can mimic the performance of the other races, while still retaining the original races flavor. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
AmlSeb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 84	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:03:00 - [89] - Quote shaman oga wrote: What is exactly fire interval? Is it ROF? Minimum time between two shots. it-¦s easier to calculate with it as DPS is now damage/fire interval First day veteran, Logi and Commander Soon a Legionnaire AmlSeb on Twitter
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2404	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:04:00 - [90] - Quote Just so long as we all get the 'effective range' reduces this listed damage to 30% of what's up there. Nobody is getting that damage at that range.

BL4CKST4R WarRavens Final Resolution. 2764	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:21:00 - [91] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Proposed numbers in a separate tab here: Numbers You are showing effective range not optimal range, so I am assuming that the optimal range value is -30 meters. To me optimal range is far more important than effective since as a Gallente shooting anything outside of my optimal even just 5 meters out is like throwing sprinkles at my target. Would like some optimal range values though... DPS for automatic AR should be higher, specially with its range reduced to 40 meters (not to happy about that :/). Range of the Assault rail should be lower by about 10 meters or its dispersion should be considerably higher so as to not make it a true "assault" weapon. Breach AR range should be higher by about 10 meters. Burst AR range is good. Tactical rifle also looks good. Please remember that all burst and tactical type weapons should have a burst delay to avoid abuse. This also had the side effect of helping the weapon not nerf itself in situations of high lag. This feedback could of been better but I noticed that my head is unable to process much of this data as I cannot see range values clearly. Range would be much better if you displayed optimal range values as weapons only do 30% damage at effective range. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2404	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:24:00 - [92] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Proposed numbers in a separate tab here: Numbers You are showing effective range not optimal range, so I am assuming that the optimal range value is -30 meters. To me optimal range is far more important than effective since as a Gallente shooting anything outside of my optimal even just 5 meters out is like throwing sprinkles at my target. Would like some optimal range values though... DPS for automatic AR should be higher, specially with its range reduced to 40 meters (not to happy about that :/). although I am having a hard time converting that number to raw rof per minute/per sec. Or if it even represents rof. Range of the Assault rail should be lower by about 10 meters or its dispersion should be considerably higher so as to not make it a true "assault" weapon. Breach AR range should be higher by about 10 meters. Not sure about dps, I can't figure it out. Burst AR range is good. Not sure about its DPS. Tactical rifle also looks good. Please remember that all burst and tactical type weapons should have a burst delay to avoid abuse. This also had the side effect of helping the weapon not nerf itself in situations of high lag. I keep on saying this, but it hasn't been responded to yet. However, I don't think all optimals are a flat 30m under effective.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens Final Resolution. 2764	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:27:00 - [93] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Proposed numbers in a separate tab here: Numbers You are showing effective range not optimal range, so I am assuming that the optimal range value is -30 meters. To me optimal range is far more important than effective since as a Gallente shooting anything outside of my optimal even just 5 meters out is like throwing sprinkles at my target. Would like some optimal range values though... DPS for automatic AR should be higher, specially with its range reduced to 40 meters (not to happy about that :/). although I am having a hard time converting that number to raw rof per minute/per sec. Or if it even represents rof. Range of the Assault rail should be lower by about 10 meters or its dispersion should be considerably higher so as to not make it a true "assault" weapon. Breach AR range should be higher by about 10 meters. Not sure about dps, I can't figure it out. Burst AR range is good. Not sure about its DPS. Tactical rifle also looks good. Please remember that all burst and tactical type weapons should have a burst delay to avoid abuse. This also had the side effect of helping the weapon not nerf itself in situations of high lag. I keep on saying this, but it hasn't been responded to yet. However, I don't think all optimals are a flat 30m under effective. At prototype level they are. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2405	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:32:00 - [94] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Proposed numbers in a separate tab here: Numbers You are showing effective range not optimal range, so I am assuming that the optimal range value is -30 meters. To me optimal range is far more important than effective since as a Gallente shooting anything outside of my optimal even just 5 meters out is like throwing sprinkles at my target. Would like some optimal range values though... DPS for automatic AR should be higher, specially with its range reduced to 40 meters (not to happy about that :/). although I am having a hard time converting that number to raw rof per minute/per sec. Or if it even represents rof. Range of the Assault rail should be lower by about 10 meters or its dispersion should be considerably higher so as to not make it a true "assault" weapon. Breach AR range should be higher by about 10 meters. Not sure about dps, I can't figure it out. Burst AR range is good. Not sure about its DPS. Tactical rifle also looks good. Please remember that all burst and tactical type weapons should have a burst delay to avoid abuse. This also had the side effect of helping the weapon not nerf itself in situations of high lag. I keep on saying this, but it hasn't been responded to yet. However, I don't think all optimals are a flat 30m under effective. At prototype level they are. Are these no longer the ranges? But yes, I assume this would mean that optimal ranges would now become what the old PRO optimals were?
BL4CKST4R WarRavens Final Resolution. 2764	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:34:00 - [95] - Quote Ahh your right, sorry. Though optimal range values would still be very nice to see. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 802	Posted - 2014.06.10 12:04:00 - [96] - Quote Approve of removing range progression. Afraid of tinkering with rifle variants will repeat the "copies" outperforming the "originals". It's funny because all the real rifle originals, the "copies", are plasma rifles because that was the place holder weapon for all other "original" rifles. If rail rifle DPS needs reducing, please lower the rate of fire so that it feels different from firing the plasma rifle. Medium frame EHP is not medium
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2405	Posted - 2014.06.10 12:13:00 - [97] - Quote medomai grey wrote: Approve of removing range progression. Afraid of tinkering with rifle variants will repeat the "copies" outperforming the "originals". It's funny because all the real rifle originals, the "copies", are plasma rifles because that was the place holder weapon for all other "original" rifles. If rail rifle DPS needs reducing, please lower the rate of fire so that it feels different from firing the plasma rifle. Or give it a bit more kick over time.
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 739	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:00:00 - [98] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Apart from the TAR buff and a range boost to low-end weapons, I see little difference between the Current and Proposed visualizations. Not much is changing. Let's roll it out as-is then finetune as needed. Current has far more circles of the same type across more horizontal space, which means that there is a range progression with the tiers, and the current also has a big imbalance: RR not sacrificing much DPS for it's range and plasma rifles not getting a lot of DPS for their short range. The proposed plan would alleviate a lot of those problems. Wait ... Doublechecking the math OK ... done now. See Response to Data You were saying? I was saying that the proposed plan would alleviate a lot of those problems of rifle imbalance. The proposed plan would make it so that for each class of weapon (breach, assault, tactical, & burst) the range you have, the less dps you would have. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Cardio Therapy Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 39	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:02:00 - [99] - Quote I would suggest touching the dmg of the standard AR and not the rof to achieve the desired dps. This is because the rof will affect the clip time to empty and it is balanced for the current rof. Like the weapons with higher rof have usually higher magazine size. Also it will affect the time you will finish your ammunitions. Then there will come the complaint from the clip size not corresponding to the new rof and will need another fix. Also by increasing the rof Ar is becoming closer to the CR which is not good.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens Final Resolution. 2765	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:24:00 - [100] - Quote Edited copy of your hotfix Bravo numbers with some of my suggestions, includes the addition of optimal ranges (assumed, rate of fire per minute, and DPS figures with your new proposed numbers. Along with my own suggested changes to some weapons, including but not limited to range, rof, and damage. Burst delays for all tactical and burst weapons... or we can have this again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYrZVASVPsA Weapons whom I did not change but I think should be change are (because I like my head attached to my body): Assault rail rifle >It is an assault weapon yet so it should perform well in CQC but its range is that of the Rail rifle. It's range should be lowered (possible to 66-70M) and dispersion and kick reduced, or have its DPS increased. Gallente Burst rifle >It's DPS should be slightly increased to compensate for its lower range. Tacitcal Assault rifle >It's DPS should be slightly increased to compensate for its lower range. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

The-Errorist SVER True Blood 739	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:26:00 - [101] - Quote Argetlam Thorson wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. 1) This all fine in theory, but you might want to look at some other factors as well. I think there should be a progression between the tiers, if we have them at all. The minor increase in damage alone does not justify the dramatic cost increase going from std to proto level. So, eliminating range progression to make balancing easier may be a great idea, but I ask you to also look into compensating somewhat for that lack of progression in the prices of the weapons then. 2) Yes, YES, yes? Just make sure you don't overdo the TAR buff, we don't want anoter Uprising 1.0 ;) 3) YES! Though, looking at your suggested numbers, I think you are being a little conservative with that .... Don't fear the TAR, still less range, and less DPS compared to SCR, and SCR is alright. Also SCR has a charge shot which the TAR does not. Just keep the overheat of the ScR in mind if you start looking at tweaking it vs TAR. It does damage to you and renders you uuseless and vulnerable for that period of time. I think its already being considered since the the scrambler rifle has more dps, can fire more shots than the mag size of the TAR without stopping, bigger magazine size, but it has to cool down, charge shots heat it up a lot, overheating damages you in addition to making you unable to do much, and it has to worry about mag size and heat. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1591	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:47:00 - [102] - Quote New Numbers (The Buffs, ranked) Tactical Assault Rifles (All) +27% to RoF, +15% DMG, +7% Range Burst Assault Rifles (Adv) +17% to RoF, +15% DMG Burst Assault Rifles (Pro) +6% to RoF, +18% DMG Breach Assault Rifles (All) +7% to RoF, +13% DMG Assault Rifles (All) +6% to RoF New Numbers (The Nerfs, ranked) Note: Lower-tier ranges buffed to fit prototype range profile. Note: Prototype (normalized) effective range profiles reduced as follows: Assault Rifles -10% Range Assault Combat Rifles -6% Range Assault Rail Rifles -5% Range Breach Assault Rifles -5% Range Assault Scrambler Rifle -2% Range Rail Rifle -2% Range Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2408	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:51:00 - [103] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: New Numbers (The Buffs, ranked) Tactical Assault Rifles (All) +27% to RoF, +15% DMG, +7% Range Burst Assault Rifles (Adv) +17% to RoF, +15% DMG Burst Assault Rifles (Pro) +6% to RoF, +18% DMG Breach Assault Rifles (All) +7% to RoF, +13% DMG Assault Rifles (All) +6% to RoF * [i]Note: Lower-tier range profiles buffed to fit prototype range profile. Note: Prototype (normalized) effective range profiles reduced as follows: New Numbers (The Nerfs, ranked) Assault Rifles -10% Range Assault Combat Rifles -6% Range Assault Rail Rifles -5% Range Breach Assault Rifles -5% Range Assault Scrambler Rifle -2% Range Rail Rifle -2% Range No. This is where there is miscommunication starts. He has shown effective ranges not optimals. And he is using base optimal damage so it isn't as straightforward as you show. We don't know what they are doing with optimals.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10262	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:51:00 - [104] - Quote When you put it like that... The AR did get the lowest buff but the highest nerf at the same time. :< Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1593	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:56:00 - [105] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: No. This is where there is miscommunication starts. He has shown effective ranges not optimals. And he is using base optimal damage so it isn't as straightforward as you show. We don't know what they are doing with optimals. "Not knowing what they're doing with optimals" is not an excuse to ignore the data we've been provided. My calculations are responsive to the data provided, and are offered in followup to my earlier calculations. There is no miscommunication, intended or otherwise. I'll underline "effective" in my post above. Just for you. Kisses. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2409	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:07:00 - [106] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: No. This is where there is miscommunication starts. He has shown effective ranges not optimals. And he is using base optimal damage so it isn't as straightforward as you show. We don't know what they are doing with optimals. "Not knowing what they're doing with optimals" is not an excuse to ignore the data we've been provided. My calculations are responsive to said data and are offered in followup to my now-defunct earlier calculations posted here. There is no miscommunication, intended or otherwise. I'll underline "effective" in my post above. Just for you. Kisses. Sorry, my point is more that they've been the ones not acknowledging anything about optimals yet.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1595	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:39:00 - [107] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Sorry, my point is more that they've been the ones not acknowledging anything about optimals yet. Roger that, and thanks for the clarification. o7 It stands to reason that if effective ranges are normalized, optimal ranges will follow. Can't imagine why they wouldn't. Logibro / Rattati? PS: The proposed changes look good. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Y-BLOCK BioCyberDevelopment 11	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:02:00 - [108] - Quote If we have to spend our hard earned SP & ISk to get access to a higher tier weapon variant, then the value of the increase of damage of that weapon should also correlate with an increased range. To not do so would very much seem unfair; otherwise lower the cost or Sp requirements for all rifles.
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 17	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:24:00 - [109] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15422	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:40:00 - [110] - Quote The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. Should not be penalized; Dust 514 and eve is about freedom of fitting instead of shoehorning; true suit bonuses causes a bit of shoehorning but that's the deal when you start to specialize. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Gallente Logistics =// Unlocked

Maximus Stryker Who Are Those Guys 997	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:14:00 - [111] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. ...Some Cool Stuff... Although I am not about to dive into this data (I'll leave that to others), I just wanted to say thank you for putting it together and sharing with us, it is truly awesome to see behind the scenes data like this! Best Idea For Legion
Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1742	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:17:00 - [112] - Quote Likin the idea behind all of this, one question: How difficult would it be to swap the recoils on the Rr and CR? I'd love to have caldari be the 'long range' sniper type, being able to put consistent(although lower) DPS on targets. While the CR puts unwieldly DPS in people's faces, sometimes even hitting multiple targets, and then escaping, reloadin and then returning to finish them off. For instance- give the CR a bigger hipfire, and make it's DPS gap to AR less than, say the DPS gap between Ascr and ARR, to account for your bullets literally spraying the entire wall. Also: Tactical CR please? I would love a variant that does 50 or so damage, with a 30 clip and higher range. Breach Scr would be neat too. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 18	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:25:00 - [113] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. Should not be penalized; Dust 514 and eve is about freedom of fitting instead of shoehorning; true suit bonuses causes a bit of shoehorning but that's the deal when you start to specialize. Does the USA have export restrictions on gear and systems-YES. Do contractors and companies, such as XE receive waivers for the systems-YES I you show your MIL ID can you buy milspec items such as scopes-YES Is it unreasonable for a game to follow RL logic-YES? GTFU! As for lore a Caldari arms manufacturer would not sell Tier-1 kit to a Gallente. The operating sytems of race suits and weapons from foriegn sources would not work to spec. Most importantly you negate play styles, and thus balance. Map design is important and an RP'ing MIN or CAL can only run around 50 meters from an objective-where the snipers shoot and the tanks roll, because shields SUCK- so wehave range. If you give the metal monsters more rifle punch you best off get ready to buff Cal/Min assaults, shield, scan range and movement if you expect any of them to get near an objective.
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 501	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:30:00 - [114] - Quote Y-BLOCK wrote: If we have to spend our hard earned SP & ISk to get access to a higher tier weapon variant, then the value of the increase of damage of that weapon should also correlate with an increased range. To not do so would very much seem unfair; otherwise lower the cost or Sp requirements for all rifles. Higher tier weapons are supposed to give you an edge. More range is not an edge. It flat-out changes the fight from "I have a slightly better gun" to "Hahaha he can't even hit back!". I do agree that the advantage should be meaningful, but not via range. It makes more sense to increase mag size or reduce the drawback or something. The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. No, a race's equipment should be fitting to that race's playstyle, not increasing the effectiveness artifically. A Gallente should want a Gallente weapon because his suit is best used in close combat. A Minmatar should prefer a Minmatar weapon because it fits his hit and run-oriented suit. And any player should be able to consciously use another faction's equipment for specific roles. That's why we even have a fitting system. Bonuses should be in-character, not metagaming. An Assault shouldn't give a bonus to a faction's weapon, but rather give a bonus that makes all weapons a bit more like the faction's weapon - Meaning that the faction's weapon profits the most, because it's already the strongest in the areas that are getting even stronger. A close-combat bonus on a Rail Rifle is worth less than a close combat bonus on a Plasma Rifle, because the load-up of the Rail Rifle will always be detrimental in that situation. Edit: And yes, this means that the Logi equipment is quite silly right now. According to this logic, the Amarr should have the repair tool, due to being brick tankers. Ideally, you would be capable of filling your ranks with a single faction, due to appropriate synergy.
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 18	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:40:00 - [115] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: Y-BLOCK wrote: If we have to spend our hard earned SP & ISk to get access to a higher tier weapon variant, then the value of the increase of damage of that weapon should also correlate with an increased range. To not do so would very much seem unfair; otherwise lower the cost or Sp requirements for all rifles. Higher tier weapons are supposed to give you an edge. More range is not an edge. It flat-out changes the fight from "I have a slightly better gun" to "Hahaha he can't even hit back!". I do agree that the advantage should be meaningful, but not via range. It makes more sense to increase mag size or reduce the drawback or something. The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. No, a race's equipment should be fitting to that race's playstyle, not increasing the effectiveness artifically. A Gallente should want a Gallente weapon because his suit is best used in close combat. A Minmatar should prefer a Minmatar weapon because it fits his hit and run-oriented suit. And any player should be able to consciously use another faction's equipment for specific roles. That's why we even have a fitting system. Bonuses should be in-character, not metagaming. An Assault shouldn't give a bonus to a faction's weapon, but rather give a bonus that makes all weapons a bit more like the faction's weapon - Meaning that the faction's weapon profits the most, because it's already the strongest in the areas that are getting even stronger. A close-combat bonus on a Rail Rifle is worth less than a close combat bonus on a Plasma Rifle, because the load-up of the Rail Rifle will always be detrimental in that situation. Edit: And yes, this means that the Logi equipment is quite silly right now. According to this logic, the Amarr should have the repair tool, due to being brick tankers. Ideally, you would be capable of filling your ranks with a single faction, due to appropriate synergy. Thank you for the secret FOTM formula.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10269	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:32:00 - [116] - Quote Might I suggest increasing the AR's clip size to 64 bullets? The increased fire rate means it will eat bullets faster, resulting in more frequent reloads on the rifle with the 2nd slowest reload time. And considering it's a CQC rifle, that's not something that you want. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 18	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:53:00 - [117] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Might I suggest increasing the AR's clip size to 64 bullets? The increased fire rate means it will eat bullets faster, resulting in more frequent reloads on the rifle with the 2nd slowest reload time. And considering it's a CQC rifle, that's not something that you want. Gallente the metal monster with high cyclical rate of fire, a hip fire bonus and 64 Are you pushing for a bath and a flea dip?
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 18	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:54:00 - [118] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Might I suggest increasing the AR's clip size to 64 bullets? The increased fire rate means it will eat bullets faster, resulting in more frequent reloads on the rifle with the 2nd slowest reload time. And considering it's a CQC rifle, that's not something that you want. Gallente the metal monster with high cyclical rate of fire, a hip fire bonus and 64 Are you pushing for a bath and a flea dip?
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15427	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:56:00 - [119] - Quote The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Does the USA have export restrictions on gear and systems-YES. Do contractors and companies, such as XE receive waivers for the systems-YES If you show your MIL ID can you buy milspec items such as scopes-YES Is it unreasonable for a game to follow RL logic-YES? GTFO! As for lore a Caldari arms manufacturer would not sell Tier-1 kit to a Gallente. The operating sytems of race suits and weapons from foriegn sources would not work to spec. Most importantly you negate play styles, and thus balance. Map design is important and an RP'ing MIN or CAL can only run around 50 meters from an objective-where the snipers shoot and the tanks roll, because shields SUCK- so we have range. If you give the metal monsters more rifle punch you best get ready to buff Cal/Min assaults, shield, scan range and movement if you expect any of them to get near an objective. From a lore point Concord has final authority to immortal controlled armaments which basically states that there shall not be a exclusivity monopoly of tech made available to capsuleers. Period. Caldari in all of their bureaucracy and money lost massively on the last time they challenged this law trying to pass off the electronic attack frigate being dissimilar from other frigates in a case to match to how the scorpion is dissimilar as a battleship. Concord investigated and ruled the notion out declaring the EAS as a new class of ship and forced La Dai to share the tech with designated corporations in other empires. Also no race is above using other races weapons' RP or not. Minmatar weapons are highly favored due to their low powered shipboard applications and emp proofing usually. Its quite common to find a weapons locker of such weapons in every special forces group in the galaxy. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Gallente Logistics =// Unlocked
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 250	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:02:00 - [120] - Quote The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. This. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1

bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 250	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:05:00 - [121] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. Should not be penalized; Dust 514 and eve is about freedom of fitting instead of shoehorning; true suit bonuses causes a bit of shoehorning but that's the deal when you start to specialize. Semantics. Race + suit + weapons = optimized For everything else = NOT optimized (also MasterCard) Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 19	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:07:00 - [122] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Does the USA have export restrictions on gear and systems-YES. Do contractors and companies, such as XE receive waivers for the systems-YES If you show your MIL ID can you buy milspec items such as scopes-YES Is it unreasonable for a game to follow RL logic-YES? GTFO! As for lore a Caldari arms manufacturer would not sell Tier-1 kit to a Gallente. The operating sytems of race suits and weapons from foriegn sources would not work to spec. Most importantly you negate play styles, and thus balance. Map design is important and an RP'ing MIN or CAL can only run around 50 meters from an objective-where the snipers shoot and the tanks roll, because shields SUCK- so we have range. If you give the metal monsters more rifle punch you best get ready to buff Cal/Min assaults, shield, scan range and movement if you expect any of them to get near an objective. From a lore point Concord has final authority to immortal controlled armaments which basically states that there shall not be a exclusivity monopoly of tech made available to capsuleers. Period. Caldari in all of their bureaucracy and money lost massively on the last time they challenged this law trying to pass off the electronic attack frigate being dissimilar from other frigates in a case to match to how the scorpion is dissimilar as a battleship. Concord investigated and ruled the notion out declaring the EAS as a new class of ship and forced La Dai to share the tech with designated corporations in other empires. Also no race is above using other races weapons' RP or not. Minmatar weapons are highly favored due to their low powered shipboard applications and emp proofing usually. Its quite common to find a weapons locker of such weapons in every special forces group in the galaxy. Stop with the EVE BS-If wanted to play squid in a can, I would have became a "bubblehead", but I wanted DUST on my boots.
Gelan Corbaine Gladiators Vanguard 457	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:08:00 - [123] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. This. Is wrong ... No job is worth doing if you don't get paid in the end .
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10270	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:10:00 - [124] - Quote The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Might I suggest increasing the AR's clip size to 64 bullets? The increased fire rate means it will eat bullets faster, resulting in more frequent reloads on the rifle with the 2nd slowest reload time. And considering it's a CQC rifle, that's not something that you want. Gallente the metal monster with high cyclical rate of fire, a hip fire bonus and 64 Are you pushing for a bath and a flea dip? It did lose 8 meters of range for that 50RPM ROF boost. Also, all the rifles have a better hip fire. CR, SCR and RR all have a more accurate hip fire. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 21	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:23:00 - [125] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Might I suggest increasing the AR's clip size to 64 bullets? The increased fire rate means it will eat bullets faster, resulting in more frequent reloads on the rifle with the 2nd slowest reload time. And considering it's a CQC rifle, that's not something that you want. Gallente the metal monster with high cyclical rate of fire, a hip fire bonus and 64 Are you pushing for a bath and a flea dip? It did lose 8 meters of range for that 50RPM ROF boost. Also, all the rifles have a better hip fire. CR, SCR and RR all have a more accurate hip fire. A mixed 6 man Gallente squad will be unbeatable 40 meter from an objective, a gallogi scanning and repping is potent.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10270	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:28:00 - [126] - Quote The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Cat Merc wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Might I suggest increasing the AR's clip size to 64 bullets? The increased fire rate means it will eat bullets faster, resulting in more frequent reloads on the rifle with the 2nd slowest reload time. And considering it's a CQC rifle, that's not something that you want. Gallente the metal monster with high cyclical rate of fire, a hip fire bonus and 64 Are you pushing for a bath and a flea dip? It did lose 8 meters of range for that 50RPM ROF boost. Also, all the rifles have a better hip fire. CR, SCR and RR all have a more accurate hip fire. A mixed 6 man Gallente squad will be unbeatable 40 meter from an objective, a gallogi scanning and repping is potent. Uhhh.. Then don't get within 40 meters? Long range weapons exist for a reason. Cut them down from there then come in to kill the left overs. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 252	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:30:00 - [127] - Quote Gelan Corbaine wrote: bogeyman m wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. This. Is wrong ... ... To disagree with. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 21	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:39:00 - [128] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Cat Merc wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Might I suggest increasing the AR's clip size to 64 bullets? The increased fire rate means it will eat bullets faster, resulting in more frequent reloads on the rifle with the 2nd slowest reload time. And considering it's a CQC rifle, that's not something that you want. Gallente the metal monster with high cyclical rate of fire, a hip fire bonus and 64 Are you pushing for a bath and a flea dip? It did lose 8 meters of range for that 50RPM ROF boost. Also, all the rifles have a better hip fire. CR, SCR and RR all have a more accurate hip fire. A mixed 6 man Gallente squad will be unbeatable 40 meter from an objective, a gallogi scanning and repping is potent. Uhhh.. Then don't get within 40 meters? Long range weapons exist for a reason. Cut them down from there then come in to kill the left overs. I know already about 75 meters..lol What objectives do we have today have a +40 meter kill zone? Most are CQB, the others are all "kill boxed" by snipers and prone to vehicular domination.
Gelan Corbaine Gladiators Vanguard 457	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:52:00 - [129] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Gelan Corbaine wrote: bogeyman m wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. This. Is wrong ... ... To disagree with. Then I am happy to be "wrong" since I disagree with this strongly . New Eden has always been about choices ..... removing choice makes the universe blander . No job is worth doing if you don't get paid in the end .
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 21	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:57:00 - [130] - Quote Gelan Corbaine wrote: bogeyman m wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. This. Is wrong ... Evetard? "Squid in a can" tactics, strategy, weapon utilization are all irrelevant in Dust. Example: Caldari EVE doctorine would work in DUST if the fight was on a salt flat, 360-¦ unobstructed fov.

Gelan Corbaine Gladiators Vanguard 457	Posted - 2014.06.10 21:12:00 - [131] - Quote The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Gelan Corbaine wrote: bogeyman m wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. This. Is wrong ... Evetard? "Squid in a can" tactics, strategy, weapon utilization are all irrelevant in Dust. Example: Caldari EVE doctorine would work in DUST if the fight was on a salt flat, 360-¦ unobstructed fov. Yet you are the one who wishes to enforce that scenario . Where a Caldari is stuck with his rail rifle ......rather than picking up an MD to deal with that armor camp down the hall. You wan't him to waste a ton of SP skilling into another race suit just to use a weapon suited to the task of the problem he faces. No job is worth doing if you don't get paid in the end .
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 21	Posted - 2014.06.10 21:35:00 - [132] - Quote Gelan Corbaine wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Gelan Corbaine wrote: bogeyman m wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. This. Is wrong ... Evetard? "Squid in a can" tactics, strategy, weapon utilization are all irrelevant in Dust. Example: Caldari EVE doctorine would work in DUST if the fight was on a salt flat, 360-¦ unobstructed fov. Yet you are the one who wishes to enforce that scenario . Where a Caldari is stuck with his rail rifle ......rather than picking up an MD to deal with that armor camp down the hall. You wan't him to waste a ton of SP skilling into another race suit just to use a weapon suited to the task of the problem he faces. That scenario would allow the DEV to balance the game. Instead we get tank plus most dps at 50m-FOTM. Investment? I am Caldari, I OMNI in Caldari, I use Caldari weapons, because in RL I am a Xenophobic Caldari.
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1356	Posted - 2014.06.10 21:51:00 - [133] - Quote The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Race Locking stuff. Off Kittening Topic! Racial Hardlocks aren't going to happen in a hotfix - or at all - with any kind of likelyhood so this discussion here is completely unconstructive. You can call people "evetards" all you want in your own thread. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 21	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:21:00 - [134] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Race Locking stuff. Off Kittening Topic! Racial Hardlocks aren't going to happen in a hotfix - or at all - with any kind of likelyhood so this discussion here is completely unconstructive. You can call people "evetards" all you want in your own thread. Wow! you're a true genius. Go back to my original post.
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1357	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:28:00 - [135] - Quote The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Race Locking stuff. Off Kittening Topic! Racial Hardlocks aren't going to happen in a hotfix - or at all - with any kind of likelyhood so this discussion here is completely unconstructive. You can call people "evetards" all you want in your own thread. Wow! your a true genius. Go back to my original post. You'd have a point here, had you not gone ahead to discuss it over one and a half pages anyway... You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3932	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:34:00 - [136] - Quote I like a lot of the changes, but the TAC-AR buffs are a bit too much, what with better fire rate, range, and single-shot damage at the same time. Improving all three at the same time to that degree is a bit much. The trade-off for higher damage with blaster tech is typically range. Boosting the damage AND the range of a weapon that already has range so that it has range that is mostly comparable to other rifles, higher damage than all of them, and improving the fire rate... too much, too much. Dren&Templar Tragedy.
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 21	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:36:00 - [137] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Race Locking stuff. Off Kittening Topic! Racial Hardlocks aren't going to happen in a hotfix - or at all - with any kind of likelyhood so this discussion here is completely unconstructive. You can call people "evetards" all you want in your own thread. Wow! your a true genius. Go back to my original post. You'd have a point here, had you not gone ahead to discuss it over one and a half pages anyway... Again your genius is on display, go back and read it all again.. this is my second post back at you number 3 will win you a box of loot.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15434	Posted - 2014.06.10 23:00:00 - [138] - Quote The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Race Locking stuff. Off Kittening Topic! Racial Hardlocks aren't going to happen in a hotfix - or at all - with any kind of likelyhood so this discussion here is completely unconstructive. You can call people "evetards" all you want in your own thread. Wow! your a true genius. Go back to my original post. You'd have a point here, had you not gone ahead to discuss it over one and a half pages anyway... Again your genius is on display, go back and read it all again.. this is my second post back at you number 3 will win you a box of loot. Quick warning, Please stop trolling/flaming official feedback threads. If you cannot constructively state reasons why everyone should get locked to their race from a game design point of view for enjoyment of the players then don't. Everyone else can give you a clear and concise reason as to why we must preserve freedom of fitting. First and foremost we do not need to recreate the very same issues killing planetside 2. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Gallente Logistics =// Unlocked
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1636	Posted - 2014.06.10 23:26:00 - [139] - Quote Is this still the Fine Rifle thread? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 21	Posted - 2014.06.11 00:05:00 - [140] - Quote OK First off PS2 suits of the same class over the three races are equal in attributes. In Dust if things are equal the race with the highest DPS suit wins. So to mitigate this imbalane we get racial weapons with differing attributes to equalize the first imbalance. Then you match the best suit with best DPS weapon and get FOTM take that and then throw in map design imbalance and you get a mess. all of these mistakes are the result of using EVE lore The SEALS and Marines are both moved around by the NAVY, but that is the only thing in common with the NAVY. thus my salt flats example. Play style is parimount, because this should impact your choice of kit, but DPS wins out. I never said "racial lock" I said efficiency, as a Caldari I have range to balance my suits weakness, but am at a complete disadvantage if a Gallente has my rifle. I also have zero incentive to push objectives, so nerfing range is only treating a symptom. If you want to standardise damge lvl per class over all the races like PS2, or keep messing with rifle attributes? or you could balance playstyles, with maps fixes an impossiblity until legion, but at least we'd be fixing the problem not the symptom.

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 10563	Posted - 2014.06.11 00:24:00 - [141] - Quote The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Gelan Corbaine wrote: bogeyman m wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. This. Is wrong ... "Squid in a can" tactics, strategy, weapon utilization are all irrelevant in Dust. Example: Caldari EVE doctorine would work in DUST if the fight was on a salt flat, 360-¦ fov. You are fundamentally lacking in certain considerations here. RaiL Technology is not a Caldari invention. It's actually something that was developed by the Gallente and then adopted by the Caldari to suit their purposes, both militaries utilise and modify their vessels for use of these turrets. Missiles are not unique to any one race, and ballistic weapons like auto cannons and by extension Combat Rifles are used by every standard military, and more often than not pirate factions the universe over. In EVE vessels work more, depending on how you consider it, like this. Any fit = 100% Efficiency with required skills Fits making use of Ship bonuses = 110% I can put Autocannons on a Tormentor, the ship still works to 100% of it capacity. But when I stack Pulse Lasers on it it gets bonuses and works to 100+X % of its normal capacity. Penalising a player for not using a racial style is not the best method here, instead giving logically sound technological bonuses for using complimentary technology would benefit the development of specific playstyles. "You are weak Ouryon....weakness serves not the Empire. I shall teach you strength." -Yurius of the Brutor to Ouryon
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 21	Posted - 2014.06.11 00:41:00 - [142] - Quote True Adamance wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Gelan Corbaine wrote: bogeyman m wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. This. Is wrong ... "Squid in a can" tactics, strategy, weapon utilization are all irrelevant in Dust. Example: Caldari EVE doctorine would work in DUST if the fight was on a salt flat, 360-¦ fov. You are fundamentally lacking in certain considerations here. RaiL Technology is not a Caldari invention. It's actually something that was developed by the Gallente and then adopted by the Caldari to suit their purposes, both militaries utilise and modify their vessels for use of these turrets. Missiles are not unique to any one race, and ballistic weapons like auto cannons and by extension Combat Rifles are used by every standard military, and more often than not pirate factions the universe over. In EVE vessels work more, depending on how you consider it, like this. What I do understand is each suit has it's own strengths and weaknesses and our rifles where designed to balance them, I never said "racial lock" I said efficiency. Caldari need the range buffer to survive, but if a Gallente has my rifle? So my pointing to play style, as the cause of imbalance not a symptom, is justified. Any fit = 100% Efficiency with required skills Fits making use of Ship bonuses = 110% I can put Autocannons on a Tormentor, the ship still works to 100% of it capacity. But when I stack Pulse Lasers on it it gets bonuses and works to 100+X % of its normal capacity. Penalising a player for not using a racial style is not the best method here, instead giving logically sound technological bonuses for using complimentary technology would benefit the development of specific playstyles.
Dunce Masterson Savage Bullet 116	Posted - 2014.06.11 02:52:00 - [143] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. +1 about time keep this up and ill start thinking not all blue tags are incompetent. this is a move in the right direction I'm glad to see this change on the horizon. I don't even know why I bother.
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 257	Posted - 2014.06.11 03:12:00 - [144] - Quote Gelan Corbaine wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Gelan Corbaine wrote: bogeyman m wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. This... Is wrong ... ... To disagree with. Then I am happy to be "wrong" since I disagree with this strongly . New Eden has always been about choices ..... removing choice makes the universe blander . Zero choices were suggested to be removed. Having racially matched fits be more optimized than non-matched fits (a) follows logic, and (b) provides another choice. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1295	Posted - 2014.06.11 04:53:00 - [145] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Proposed numbers in a separate tab here: Numbers So far they're looking better. Again, all Gallente rifles should be highest DPS, lowest range in comparison to the other races variants. So the breach AR should have the highest DPS, lowest range out of all racial breach rifles, while the same breach AR should have the highest range and lowest DPS of all the AR variants. So, given a particular variant type (breach, tactical, burst, assault) The order should always be: High DPS.......................................................................................Low DPS Short Range..............................................................................Long Range Gallente - - - - - - - - - -Minmatar - - - - - - - - - - Amarr - - - - - - - - - - Caldari In this way, each race can mimic the performance of the other races, while still retaining the original races flavor. Fixed it. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
Cardio Therapy Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 40	Posted - 2014.06.11 05:48:00 - [146] - Quote The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Might I suggest increasing the AR's clip size to 64 bullets? The increased fire rate means it will eat bullets faster, resulting in more frequent reloads on the rifle with the 2nd slowest reload time. And considering it's a CQC rifle, that's not something that you want. Gallente the metal monster with high cyclical rate of fire, a hip fire bonus and 64 Are you pushing for a bath and a flea dip? That is why I suggest for the standard AR not to touch the rof and to reach the desired dps by manipulating only the damage.
BL4CKST4R warravens Final Resolution. 2770	Posted - 2014.06.11 11:24:00 - [147] - Quote Still waiting on those optimal range figures... nerfing the range of the AR is definately not a thing I am happy about... unless the 8M loss was just to effective range in which case IDC because a Gallente shouldn't be chasing his effective range unless he wants to be brutally destroyed supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2487	Posted - 2014.06.11 12:44:00 - [148] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Still waiting on those optimal range figures... nerfing the range of the AR is definately not a thing I am happy about... unless the 8M loss was just to effective range in which case IDC because a Gallente shouldn't be chasing his effective range unless he wants to be brutally destroyed The ratio of effective to optimal is unchanged and I am not going into that right now as they are not hardcoded numbers but damage curves (that were not changed). "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

The-Errorist SVER True Blood 747	Posted - 2014.06.11 13:02:00 - [149] - Quote The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: ... Cat Merc wrote: ... Uhhh.. Then don't get within 40 meters? Long range weapons exist for a reason. Cut them down from there then come in to kill the left overs. I know already about 75 meters..lol What objectives do we have today have a +40 meter kill zone? Most are CQB, the others are all "kill boxed" by snipers and prone to vehicular domination. The bridge maps, when your on top of buildings, when people are crossing from one relatively save zone/objective to another, when not in one of the main compounds, when fighting in long narrow areas, and the list goes on. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6039	Posted - 2014.06.11 13:09:00 - [150] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Still waiting on those optimal range figures... nerfing the range of the AR is definately not a thing I am happy about... unless the 8M loss was just to effective range in which case IDC because a Gallente shouldn't be chasing his effective range unless he wants to be brutally destroyed The ratio of effective to optimal is unchanged and I am not going into that right now as they are not hardcoded numbers but damage curves (that were not changed). This might've been mentioned before, but here goes. Since you were talking about giving Starter Fits their racial weaponry and were considering giving them the assault variant for ease of use (unless I was mistaken), is there any consideration to adding some militia/standard versions of the rifle variants? Just considered, while running my Caldari Assault and ARR combo, that I would really love to have a Standard Assault Rail Rifle to be able to run this fit without needing a PG Upgrade and keep the fit itself cheap Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1

Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1357	Posted - 2014.06.11 13:13:00 - [151] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Still waiting on those optimal range figures... nerfing the range of the AR is definately not a thing I am happy about... unless the 8M loss was just to effective range in which case IDC because a Gallente shouldn't be chasing his effective range unless he wants to be brutally destroyed The ratio of effective to optimal is unchanged and I am not going into that right now as they are not hardcoded numbers but damage curves (that were not changed). Would it be possible for you to expose those damage curves, which I assume are math functions, to us at some point? I think it would be really interesting to see how the weapons compare in terms of DPS over the range spectrum and where they intersect with each other. Having access to these functions would allow us to visualize the damage curves similar to how the tracking/missile formulars in EVE allows us to do this and that. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
AmlSeb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 88	Posted - 2014.06.11 13:54:00 - [152] - Quote Why do the tactical and burst weapons still have higher DPS and range than the other variants? DPS should be Tactical->Assault->Burst->Breach and not Breach->Assault->Burst-Tactical Range should be Breach->Burst->Assault->Tactical and not randomly like it is in the proposed changes First day veteran, Logi and Commander Soon a Legionnaire AmlSeb on Twitter
Musta Tornius Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1360	Posted - 2014.06.11 14:59:00 - [153] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Still waiting on those optimal range figures... nerfing the range of the AR is definately not a thing I am happy about... unless the 8M loss was just to effective range in which case IDC because a Gallente shouldn't be chasing his effective range unless he wants to be brutally destroyed The ratio of effective to optimal is unchanged and I am not going into that right now as they are not hardcoded numbers but damage curves (that were not changed). Would it be possible for you to expose those damage curves, which I assume are math functions, to us at some point? I think it would be really interesting to see how the weapons compare in terms of DPS over the range spectrum and where they intersect with each other. Having access to these functions would allow us to visualize the damage curves similar to how the tracking/missile formulars in EVE allows us to do this and that. We've been asking for years for those curves but I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon :P Seeing as this is a range thread, check out my signature for accurate and up to date ranges.
Musta Tornius Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1360	Posted - 2014.06.11 15:00:00 - [154] - Quote duplicate post, feel free to delete
AmlSeb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 89	Posted - 2014.06.11 15:02:00 - [155] - Quote Musta Tornius wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Still waiting on those optimal range figures... nerfing the range of the AR is definately not a thing I am happy about... unless the 8M loss was just to effective range in which case IDC because a Gallente shouldn't be chasing his effective range unless he wants to be brutally destroyed The ratio of effective to optimal is unchanged and I am not going into that right now as they are not hardcoded numbers but damage curves (that were not changed). Would it be possible for you to expose those damage curves, which I assume are math functions, to us at some point? I think it would be really interesting to see how the weapons compare in terms of DPS over the range spectrum and where they intersect with each other. Having access to these functions would allow us to visualize the damage curves similar to how the tracking/missile formulars in EVE allows us to do this and that. We've been asking for years for those curves but I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon :P Seeing as this is a range thread, check out my signature for accurate and up to date ranges. What signature? First day veteran, Logi and Commander Soon a Legionnaire AmlSeb on Twitter
D legendary hero warravens Final Resolution. 1897	Posted - 2014.06.11 16:02:00 - [156] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. This is literally just buffing the AR and its variants so that they are all vastly supperior to the combat rifle in CR optimal range. i mean seriously the burst AR will have higher DPS than the CR which is designed to be burst. Shouldnt the ACR by default then get buffed to be better than the standard AR since the trend here is making the variants better than the originals? Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
D legendary hero warravens Final Resolution. 1897	Posted - 2014.06.11 16:06:00 - [157] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Bwahahaha, I love the "Range in CM" bit at the bottom Just for is it possible to get some other variants for the other rifles now. like a breach combat, breach scramble, and a tacticale Rail? Also, can we get militia variants of CR, Scr, and RR on our militia fits? Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2501	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:11:00 - [158] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Still waiting on those optimal range figures... nerfing the range of the AR is definately not a thing I am happy about... unless the 8M loss was just to effective range in which case IDC because a Gallente shouldn't be chasing his effective range unless he wants to be brutally destroyed The ratio of effective to optimal is unchanged and I am not going into that right now as they are not hardcoded numbers but damage curves (that were not changed). This might've been mentioned before, but here goes. Since you were talking about giving Starter Fits their racial weaponry and were considering giving them the assault variant for ease of use (unless I was mistaken), is there any consideration to adding some militia/standard versions of the rifle variants? Just considered, while running my Caldari Assault and ARR combo, that I would really love to have a Standard Assault Rail Rifle to be able to run this fit without needing a PG Upgrade and keep the fit itself cheap I like them being specialist weapons you need to earn. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2501	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:12:00 - [159] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Bwahahaha, I love the "Range in CM" bit at the bottom Just for is it possible to get some other variants for the other rifles now. like a breach combat, breach scramble, and a tacticale Rail? Also, can we get militia variants of CR, Scr, and RR on our militia fits? I don't see it at all. After Bravo we should have 2 competitive choices for any playstyle of rifles. I prefer honing them before adding more clutter. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1113	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:40:00 - [160] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: D legendary hero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Bwahahaha, I love the "Range in CM" bit at the bottom Just for is it possible to get some other variants for the other rifles now. like a breach combat, breach scramble, and a tacticale Rail? Also, can we get militia variants of CR, Scr, and RR on our militia fits? I don't see it at all. After Bravo we should have 2 competitive choices for any playstyle of rifles. I prefer honing them before adding more clutter. Rattati... Quick question...conceptually how what do you see as the difference / purpose of the ARR vs the RR? I think you have some good ideas for tweaking the base RR but i'm concerned it might gimp Caldari a little too much without a competitive variant in the closer ranger where the vast majority of fighting occurs. Also....if you drop the DPS for the RR will you also lower the recoil? "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen

The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 21	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:46:00 - [161] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: ... Cat Merc wrote: ... Uhhh.. Then don't get within 40 meters? Long range weapons exist for a reason. Cut them down from there then come in to kill the left overs. I know already about 75 meters..lol What objectives do we have today have a +40 meter kill zone? Most are CQB, the others are all "kill boxed" by snipers and prone to vehicular domination. The bridge maps, when your on top of buildings, when people are crossing from one relatively save zone/objective to another, when not in one of the main compounds, when fighting in long narrow areas, and the list goes on. Are any of the objectives located in these exposed areas? NO, all of them can be covered by CQB. Armor + high rof +scanning make them inaccessible to min/cal kits. increasing shields in the way the other post describe will not fix this. nevermind, if the weapon designed to cover my suits weakness is being deployed by my racial adversary.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 338	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:55:00 - [162] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Still waiting on those optimal range figures... nerfing the range of the AR is definately not a thing I am happy about... unless the 8M loss was just to effective range in which case IDC because a Gallente shouldn't be chasing his effective range unless he wants to be brutally destroyed The ratio of effective to optimal is unchanged and I am not going into that right now as they are not hardcoded numbers but damage curves (that were not changed). This might've been mentioned before, but here goes. Since you were talking about giving Starter Fits their racial weaponry and were considering giving them the assault variant for ease of use (unless I was mistaken), is there any consideration to adding some militia/standard versions of the rifle variants? Just considered, while running my Caldari Assault and ARR combo, that I would really love to have a Standard Assault Rail Rifle to be able to run this fit without needing a PG Upgrade and keep the fit itself cheap I like them being specialist weapons you need to earn. then can we have std variants unlocked at level 2 operation?
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 22	Posted - 2014.06.11 18:10:00 - [163] - Quote True Adamance wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Gelan Corbaine wrote: bogeyman m wrote: The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: I know that you cannot make changes in regards to my following statement. CCP failed to tie players race, to their kit therefore "playstyles" where broken from the get go. RACE + Race's suit + race's weapons should= 100% effectiveness all other combos should be penalised. This. Is wrong ... "Squid in a can" tactics, strategy, weapon utilization are all irrelevant in Dust. Example: Caldari EVE doctorine would work in DUST if the fight was on a salt flat, 360-¦ fov. You are fundamentally lacking in certain considerations here. RaiL Technology is not a Caldari invention. It's actually something that was developed by the Gallente and then adopted by the Caldari to suit their purposes, both militaries utilise and modify their vessels for use of these turrets. Missiles are not unique to any one race, and ballistic weapons like auto cannons and by extension Combat Rifles are used by every standard military, and more often than not pirate factions the universe over. In EVE vessels work more, depending on how you consider it, like this. Any fit = 100% Efficiency with required skills Fits making use of Ship bonuses = 110% I can put Autocannons on a Tormentor, the ship still works to 100% of it capacity. But when I stack Pulse Lasers on it it gets bonuses and works to 100+X % of its normal capacity. Penalising a player for not using a racial style is not the best method here, instead giving logically sound technological bonuses for using complimentary technology would benefit the development of specific playstyles. I do know that there is no cover or concealment in space, unlike EVE closing with and engaging using cover is fundamental in dust in order to win...the very best part of dust is CQB. MIN/CAL should have the same opportunity, but do not because racial playstyles where to closely mirrored to EVE, and then left quasi modo. If you want to promote scalping for KDR, then relegate Caldari to a perimeter game play style.
jaksol JAK darnson Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:35:00 - [164] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: duster 35000 wrote: Maybe slightly increase bolt pistol rof, or range before damage dropoff and/or minimum damage gets upped. thats a sidearm and this thread is mainly about the rifles. CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. The current situation is that we have some underperforming weapons and a complex range progression. See here: DPS versus Range - Current I began looking at balancing that system, and that effort got me around here: DPS versus Range - Tuned Here are, therefore, our proposals, while our method will be primarily buffing through tweaking fire delays, ROF and damage. We will not be touching the actual maximum effective range of the weapons, as they are heavily influenced by New Eden lore/rules. 1) Eliminate range progression of all rifles. It's unnecessarily complex and very hard to balance dps over range with overlapping bubbles. Therefore, all Standard and Advanced weapon will have the effective range of the matching Prototype weapon. This is how that scenario looks like, and we can all agree that it is easier on the eyes and brain: Range vs DPS - No Range Progression - Current 2) Then we need to properlybuff some of the weaker variants in general, Breach AR, Burst AR and Tac AR 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. And this is a birds eye view of how that might look after this balancing pass: Range versus DPS - No Range Progression - Tuned Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. if youre going to go with eve lore, youll need to increase the rail rifles optimal range to be much closer to their max effective range reason is caldari have less dps, but its more consistent and reliable dps at all ranges. but then the laser rifle if left in the dust once again leaving the as a "weakest" long range weapon "Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you."
Musta Tornius Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1360	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:37:00 - [165] - Quote AmlSeb wrote: Musta Tornius wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Still waiting on those optimal range figures... nerfing the range of the AR is definately not a thing I am happy about... unless the 8M loss was just to effective range in which case IDC because a Gallente shouldn't be chasing his effective range unless he wants to be brutally destroyed The ratio of effective to optimal is unchanged and I am not going into that right now as they are not hardcoded numbers but damage curves (that were not changed). Would it be possible for you to expose those damage curves, which I assume are math functions, to us at some point? I think it would be really interesting to see how the weapons compare in terms of DPS over the range spectrum and where they intersect with each other. Having access to these functions would allow us to visualize the damage curves similar to how the tracking/missile formulars in EVE allows us to do this and that. We've been asking for years for those curves but I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon :P Seeing as this is a range thread, check out my signature for accurate and up to date ranges. What signature? And actually they posted the graphs sometime ago. As they probably still use the same function you could get it from the graph EDIT: It was not them who posted it but here is the one by Aeon Amadi http://i.imgur.com/krRr5EZ.png Hups, I replaced the link with a picture when it worked, forgot to change it back. DUST514 Weapon Range & Information Team Fairy DUST


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