DUST Search - [Feedback] Rifles and Variants

CCP Rattati wrote:

Sole Fenychs wrote:

I definitely love the change to normalized ranges. Hell, it might even help with proto stomping.

As for tweaks, keep in mind to keep each weapon's identity. You have already seen the effect of changing identities, when you gave the Scrambler Pistol different behavior and everyone started whining.
Another thread had someone propose a higher rof for the Breach AR, for example, which would be the wrong way to go. The Breach is supposed to fire less bullets that hit harder, at slightly longer ranges, but have less of a chance of hitting targets with random spraying.
I'm also in favor of giving the Burst AR the five bullet burst back, just for the sake of diversity and to fit in line with the Gallente close-combat affinity. (More bullets = Less chance of missing during the randomness that is close combat)

By the way, will this hotfix also change the name of the Assault Rifle? Or is this planned for later?

I am quite fond myself of adding bullets to the burst, and certainly not increasing ROF for the Breach, instead of dmg. Every bullet from that should hurt.

Changing that name might mess up so many things, all references in all material and descriptions for instance. I worry about that and feel our resources are better used in fixing "real" issues.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10236	Posted - 2014.06.09 12:51:00 - [31] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Sole Fenychs wrote: I definitely love the change to normalized ranges. Hell, it might even help with proto stomping. As for tweaks, keep in mind to keep each weapon's identity. You have already seen the effect of changing identities, when you gave the Scrambler Pistol different behavior and everyone started whining. Another thread had someone propose a higher rof for the Breach AR, for example, which would be the wrong way to go. The Breach is supposed to fire less bullets that hit harder, at slightly longer ranges, but have less of a chance of hitting targets with random spraying. I'm also in favor of giving the Burst AR the five bullet burst back, just for the sake of diversity and to fit in line with the Gallente close-combat affinity. (More bullets = Less chance of missing during the randomness that is close combat) By the way, will this hotfix also change the name of the Assault Rifle? Or is this planned for later? I am quite fond myself of adding bullets to the burst, and certainly not increasing ROF for the Breach, instead of dmg. Every bullet from that should hurt. Changing that name might mess up so many things, all references in all material and descriptions for instance. I worry about that and feel our resources are better used in fixing "real" issues. Please do not add bullets to the burst. Just reduce the burst delay to something that isn't god awful, normalize ROF between tiers and then tweak from there. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1468	Posted - 2014.06.09 12:56:00 - [32] - Quote I agree with others that the Breach AR looks like it doesn't really have a high enough range/DPS ratio to have its own place on the battle field. Either an increase in range, which would fit because the RR is breach and has huge range, or an increase in DPS, which once again fits the breach philosophy, might help with this. As many others have also said I really love what you have done but can't really comment too much until I get my digital hands on weapons with these new stats to test them out. I will attempt to make some more comparisons when I get back from work though by making a DPS/Range ratio table and related graph. That will make comparison of the various range/DPS progressions we are seeing a bit easier to process. Thank you, as always, for listening to our feedback Rattati and Logibro. I love feeling like I am part of the design process, which is huge for player retention among our numbers obsessed masses. Fun > Realism
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1394	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:10:00 - [33] - Quote Looking good there Rattati. As someone else already mentioned we've had in the past too much wahwah with changes to weapon stats, without giving plenty of time to see if they work first. We you please stick to your guns a little longer with this round of hotfixes. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10238	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:34:00 - [34] - Quote Hey Rattati, can you give us the stats used in the graph? For example the TAR, I can see the DPS increased, but is it from ROF or Damage or both? If both than what combination? Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 734	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:35:00 - [35] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: I'm a little confused. Isn't this showing the dps of your optimal range but the listed ranges are effective ranges? The listed DPS corresponds to the distance in CM on the bottom. CCP Rattati wrote: ... What I would like: DPS ranking: SR > TAR > BAR > CR > AR > ACR > ASR> ARR > BRAR > RR Sustained DPS (charge time, heat, & reload speed factored in): BRAR > RR > AR > ACR > ASR > ARR > BAR > CR > TAR > SR CR Adding a firing delay between bursts, so there won't be a burst weapon that doesn't have a firing delay, and Increase reload speed, so it'll a lower sustained DPS as a trade-off for it's high DPS. [Clear roles for infantry weapon types:] Tactical, Burst, Assault, Breach Breach weapons Has 2nd lowest magazine size, 2nd lowest recoil, lower RoF and lower DPS in return for 2nd highest damage per shot, higher accuracy & higher precision (lower dispersion), fastest reload speed, and higher sustained DPS. Assault Has lowest recoil, 2nd highest sustained DPS & reload speed, highest RoF and magazine size, at the cost of lowest accuracy. Burst Fires in a burst, 2nd highest DPS & accuracy, best precision, and 3rd highest damage per shot, at the cost of having the 2nd highest recoil, 3rd lowest magazine size, 2nd lowest reload speed and sustained DPS. Tactical Highest DPS, accuracy, and damage per shot, at the cost of having the highest recoil, lowest magazine size, precision (higher dispersion), reload speed, and sustained DPS. We also need the other racial variants of the main rifles. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 31	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:38:00 - [36] - Quote Question, do these numbers take into account that the Combat Rifle (and all Bullet Based Weapons) do effectively 5% more damage than the other weapons due to their damage type?
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1544	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:39:00 - [37] - Quote Apart from the TAR buff and a range boost to low-end weapons, I see little difference between the Current and Proposed visualizations. Not much is changing. Let's roll it out as-is then finetune as needed. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 734	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:46:00 - [38] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Apart from the TAR buff and a range boost to low-end weapons, I see little difference between the Current and Proposed visualizations. Not much is changing. Let's roll it out as-is then finetune as needed. Current has far more circles of the same type across more horizontal space, which means that there is a range progression with the tiers, and the current also has a big imbalance: RR not sacrificing much DPS for it's range and plasma rifles not getting a lot of DPS for their short range. The proposed plan would alleviate a lot of those problems. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1545	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:54:00 - [39] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Apart from the TAR buff and a range boost to low-end weapons, I see little difference between the Current and Proposed visualizations. Not much is changing. Let's roll it out as-is then finetune as needed. Current has far more circles of the same type across more horizontal space, which means that there is a range progression with the tiers, and the current also has a big imbalance: RR not sacrificing much DPS for it's range and plasma rifles not getting a lot of DPS for their short range. The proposed plan would alleviate a lot of those problems. Wait ... Doublechecking the math Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 164	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:57:00 - [40] - Quote I have always disliked that the Combat Rifle has outperformed the AR at medium range. I think its effectiveness at this range shouldn't be as good as the AR. You should have to cross the threshold from medium into short range to dominate with the CR. It's a light HMG, why shouldn't it perform like one? Hotfix Alpha wasn't enough to make the AR a viable option over the CR. Looking at those numbers, I'm not even going to try the BRAR to see what the 3% buff did, because this confirms my suspicion. My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1547	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:16:00 - [41] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Apart from the TAR buff and a range boost to low-end weapons, I see little difference between the Current and Proposed visualizations. Not much is changing. Let's roll it out as-is then finetune as needed. Current has far more circles of the same type across more horizontal space, which means that there is a range progression with the tiers, and the current also has a big imbalance: RR not sacrificing much DPS for it's range and plasma rifles not getting a lot of DPS for their short range. The proposed plan would alleviate a lot of those problems. Wait ... Doublechecking the math OK ... done now. See Response to Data You were saying? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2404	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:26:00 - [42] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: I'm a little confused. Isn't this showing the dps of your optimal range but the listed ranges are effective ranges? The listed DPS corresponds to the distance in CM on the bottom. I just don't think this is true. I don't think that the 30% of a CR DPS is 594 in its effective range.
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 165	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:38:00 - [43] - Quote Upon further inspection of the graphs, I like the trend that I am seeing, especially with the TAR and BAR. However I fear this still may not be enough for the AR to compete against the CR. Think about it. Although their DPS will be higher, the likelihood of landing every bullet is much higher with a CR, as it is fully automatic fire. These changes may convince me to spend another point in AR Sharpshooter, but it simply will continue to be outperformed by the other Light weapons. As I said in my last post, I always thought that AR should be better at medium range than the CR, because the CR is supposed to be a short range weapon that is still somewhat effective at medium range, but shouldn't outperform the AR at that range. My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1
Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect 1330	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:50:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. Please ensure that this applies to sniper rifles as well. There should not be a high damage, virtually zero risk role.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1550	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:18:00 - [45] - Quote An after-thought ... I keep coming back to that 80% DPS buff for the TAR. This massive buff can only be delivered via RoF or DMG. If delivered via RoF, we risk a return of modded controllers. Definitely not cool. If delivered via DMG, you'll be looking at a headshot monster. Maybe OK, Maybe OP. If delivered by both, you'll be looking at modded-controller, headshot monster. (just joking) ... kinda Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1606	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:19:00 - [46] - Quote deleted PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1606	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:20:00 - [47] - Quote Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: Upon further inspection of the graphs, I like the trend that I am seeing, especially with the TAR and BAR. However I fear this still may not be enough for the AR to compete against the CR. Think about it. Although their DPS will be higher, the likelihood of landing every bullet is much higher with a CR, as it is fully automatic fire. These changes may convince me to spend another point in AR Sharpshooter, but it simply will continue to be outperformed by the other Light weapons. As I said in my last post, I always thought that AR should be better at medium range than the CR, because the CR is supposed to be a short range weapon that is still somewhat effective at medium range, but shouldn't outperform the AR at that range. Plasma < Combat < Rail < Laser ^Range profiles PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10243	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:21:00 - [48] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: Upon further inspection of the graphs, I like the trend that I am seeing, especially with the TAR and BAR. However I fear this still may not be enough for the AR to compete against the CR. Think about it. Although their DPS will be higher, the likelihood of landing every bullet is much higher with a CR, as it is fully automatic fire. These changes may convince me to spend another point in AR Sharpshooter, but it simply will continue to be outperformed by the other Light weapons. As I said in my last post, I always thought that AR should be better at medium range than the CR, because the CR is supposed to be a short range weapon that is still somewhat effective at medium range, but shouldn't outperform the AR at that range. That's in reverse. The AR is supposed to be the CQC beast, not the CR. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1606	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:23:00 - [49] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: Upon further inspection of the graphs, I like the trend that I am seeing, especially with the TAR and BAR. However I fear this still may not be enough for the AR to compete against the CR. Think about it. Although their DPS will be higher, the likelihood of landing every bullet is much higher with a CR, as it is fully automatic fire. These changes may convince me to spend another point in AR Sharpshooter, but it simply will continue to be outperformed by the other Light weapons. As I said in my last post, I always thought that AR should be better at medium range than the CR, because the CR is supposed to be a short range weapon that is still somewhat effective at medium range, but shouldn't outperform the AR at that range. That's in reverse. The AR is supposed to be the CQC beast, not the CR. Yeah, damn forums messed up my post. Didn't know having words connected with "<" 's caused an HTML error I was trying to say that myself. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
I-Shayz-I I-----I 3644	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:26:00 - [50] - Quote Increasing them to their prototype range seems like a bad idea, but who knows. While most people want a buff to the tactical, breach, and burst ARs, please make sure to keep them less effective (or with limited range) compared to the respective racial rifle. These AR variants make it so that you only need one skill to use all sorts of different use weapons, but that diversity needs a tradeoff for effectiveness. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1102	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:31:00 - [51] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone for your input over the last few weeks on this issue. At the heart of every FPS there is the Rifle and it just needs to be fair and balanced. ...snip... 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps, I am looking at you Rail Rifle. Go wild, keep it civil and constructive. First, I really like the idea of evening out the ranges by tier. Solid move. Second, making the AR a solid player out to mid range is also a much needed fix. This brings me to your comment about RRs. I run these pretty exclusively and have since the first day they came out and I think you can adjust them BUT you can quickly put the weapon in a very bad UP spot if you aren't careful and/or not utilize the variants to give options to players. 1) Range vs DPS, no issue with that as long as you consider how long a player might have to keep tracking and putting accurate fire on a moving target bouncing in and out of cover to kill him. It would not be a good thing if the RR (base model) were to simply become a harassing weapon that struggles to finish similar meta level equipped targets. Quick note on EVE comparisons...in EVE your SP investments and modules determine your accuracy and ability to put DPS on target at range and you have a ton of skills and mods that enable that....very different in this game obviously. 2) What are the average kill ranges for the RR? I've often wondered about that since mostly what we are talking about is potential range overmatch. Subjectively, the times where I'm truly out of effective range of an opponent and I'm firing on him are in the minority. The other subjective note is that even when I do have my target effectively outranged...at lest one of his buddies has me in his optimal. 3) if you make changes to the base RR then you need to keep the ARR as a viable mid / short range option. For example, when I run logi you are pretty much driven to being closer in the fight to support your guys...I would like to have a Cal light weapon that remains viable for me when I'm doing this. TL:DR...exploring changes can be positive but be careful with changes; it's a very fine line between balanced and useless. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14413	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:41:00 - [52] - Quote Could you finally show the effective and maximum ranges of weapons in game? Glad to see you're tackling this stuff either way
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2404	Posted - 2014.06.09 16:20:00 - [53] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Could you finally show the effective and maximum ranges of weapons in game? Glad to see you're tackling this stuff either way I think they are going off of the numbers (and SDE) from the 1.7 devblog. It's showing the optimal and effective ranges. But yeah, having it in game would be nice. At the effective range the DPS should be 30% of what it is inside of the optimal range. I think they are miscommunicating DPS in some way here. But comparing effective range DPS is still useful. But looking just at effective range DPS and not optimal isn't so helpful. I think a comparison of other competing rifles at optimal ranges matters too. If some weapons can dominate your DPS outside your optimal, then what really is your role?
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14316	Posted - 2014.06.09 16:33:00 - [54] - Quote I like a lot of this but that TAR buff is monstrous. Be [u]very[/u[ careful with that. I strongly recommend only trying a partial buff with such a huge change in this hotfix, and then if changes are still needed continuing it up. It's really nice to see a proper tradeoff for range now, although I do wonder how some of this potentially extremely powerful stuff will turn out. Exercise caution with those AR buffs. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2404	Posted - 2014.06.09 16:52:00 - [55] - Quote Just so we are clear CCP Rattati, it looks like you are listing the DPS inside a weapon's optimal but at the effective ranges of each weapon. In reality, the listed dps should be 70% lower than what you have at these ranges. That is unless you are eliminating the effective range progression for all rifles and making DPS constant up to the effective range?
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15396	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:02:00 - [56] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Actually not sure what the point of the breach is, I like that you substantively buffed it, but less DPS and same range as regular AR, the hipfire accuracy difference between breach and current AR isn't that noticeable, to me at least; make sure other aspects like accuracy and dispersion, etc are high enough to warrant its use. I guess the higher alpha might make it worth it? but I don't know. Just please make sure it actually has a purpose. Breach and Tactical are like the M14 Battle Rifles in comparison to the M16 assault rifles. They're basically firing full sized ammo. One is emphasis on accuracy and one for front line use. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Gallente Logistics =// Unlocked
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 508	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:12:00 - [57] - Quote Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: I have always disliked that the Combat Rifle has outperformed the AR at medium range. I think its effectiveness at this range shouldn't be as good as the AR. You should have to cross the threshold from medium into short range to dominate with the CR. It's a light HMG, why shouldn't it perform like one? Hotfix Alpha wasn't enough to make the AR a viable option over the CR. Looking at those numbers, I'm not even going to try the BRAR to see what the 3% buff did, because this confirms my suspicion. CR should be better than AR at medium range AR should be stronger at shorter range. "Shine bright like a diamond"
Viktor Hadah Jr Negative-Impact The East India Co. 4156	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:12:00 - [58] - Quote I'd say just take out all the AR variants make it simpler less things to balance and maintain... Viktor for CPM I'll ring for free(Multiple roles, 50Mil SP) Chat Channel: Vik PC
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 3313	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:14:00 - [59] - Quote I'd love to see the breach get a larger mag, otherwise it feels pretty good. CR/ACR are still doing insane amounts of dmg. Rail is in a good place, but is still to good at CQC. ScR feels pretty right. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1550	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:18:00 - [60] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Actually not sure what the point of the breach is, I like that you substantively buffed it, but less DPS and same range as regular AR, the hipfire accuracy difference between breach and current AR isn't that noticeable, to me at least; make sure other aspects like accuracy and dispersion, etc are high enough to warrant its use. I guess the higher alpha might make it worth it? but I don't know. Just please make sure it actually has a purpose. Breach and Tactical are like the M14 Battle Rifles in comparison to the M16 assault rifles. They're basically firing full sized ammo. One is emphasis on accuracy and one for front line use. Not to be confused with the M1014 or SPAS-15, both of which are wildly ineffective outside of 5 meters. These are quite literally only used in combat to pick locks. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley



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