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CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1042	Posted - 2014.05.16 14:54:00 - [1] - Quote We need a lively discussion on this one. Status update (yes I know you know) Plates are being used to stack EHP in over abundance. There is little drawback to that strategy and the other options are not competitive/viable. This is having a big effect on the landscape, both brick tanked scouts and heavies, making scramblers/flux weapons out of place. I would like to hear ideas on how to remedy that. For insight, these are the armor modules ordered by consumption 1. Plates 2. Repair 3. Reactive 4. Ferroscale out of the three plates, normal plates are 85& prevalent and the other two split the difference. How to make them viable, and also a bonus question, can "active" armor tanking be viable without being OP. My GA sentinel with 4 pro reps is not competitive, fun, but not competitive. Discuss. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1202	Posted - 2014.05.16 14:56:00 - [2] - Quote % increase, giving Heavies the greatest benefit with Scouts getting less. Is it possible on server update? I think I'm over Dust now...
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1511	Posted - 2014.05.16 14:57:00 - [3] - Quote A slight buff to armor reps Maybe a pg increase to armor plates Ferroscale and reactive hp buff and reactive rep buff ao its 1 hp/s at std, 2.5 hp/s at adv or higher, 4 hp/s at pro. Closed beta vet.
Brush Master HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 1231	Posted - 2014.05.16 15:08:00 - [4] - Quote I would like plates switched to a % of base armor so you would get less benefit on a scout and a lot more benefits on a heavy, much more dynamic that way. Dust Veteran. June 2012 - ? My alliance predicted Legion... @dustreports
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 695	Posted - 2014.05.16 15:09:00 - [5] - Quote On Armor Plates * Apply scaling penalty to rotation speed * Exclude Ferroscale and Reactive Plates * Exclude Assault Frames from penalty
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 957	Posted - 2014.05.16 15:43:00 - [6] - Quote How about stacking penalties that either decrease subsequent amounts of armor added or increase the movement penalty (1 basic plate -> -1% movement; 2 basic plates -> -3% movement) % based increases to HP wouldn't scale well at all. Let's say that complex plates would give a 35% boost to armor, that gives sentinels (base 500 armor) 175 armor increase and a scout gets (base 125) ~44 armor. Any module % that properly balances the amount a heavy gains from plates will be intrinsically unbalanced for every other class. While yes this does have the effect of making scouts un-tankable, it is directly contrary to game vision (ie specialists should be best in one category but have the ability to play other styles less well). The high variability of base HP makes % based armor modules a bad idea. Besides then you have to do the same thing with shield modules at which point nobody will use anything other than sentinels. Have you ever tried to use a 300 eHP scout? Makes me remember pre 1.8 days of scouting.... If we want to stop the main problem, which in my opinion is the stacking of the same module to the exclusion of all else, then we need to add greater benefits to the other variants as well as penalize stacking the same module. That way we get more variable and interesting loadouts with more options for playstyle. You should be able to have a viable passive rep tank just as much as active repping by logi using plates.
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 703	Posted - 2014.05.16 15:53:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We need a lively discussion on this one. Status update (yes I know you know) Plates are being used to stack EHP in over abundance. There is little drawback to that strategy and the other options are not competitive/viable. This is having a big effect on the landscape, both brick tanked scouts and heavies, making scramblers/flux weapons out of place. I would like to hear ideas on how to remedy that. For insight, these are the armor modules ordered by consumption 1. Plates 2. Repair 3. Reactive 4. Ferroscale out of the three plates, normal plates are 85& prevalent and the other two split the difference. How to make them viable, and also a bonus question, can "active" armor tanking be viable without being OP. My GA sentinel with 4 pro reps is not competitive, fun, but not competitive. Discuss. On the state of active armour tanking - how about pulse tanking? Instead of a constant x hp per second, they give 'bursts' of ehp similar to how shields recharge? I'm not sure exactly how that might work, however it might be more viable in a real setting?
Sirpidey Adtur Aloren Foundations 138	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:00:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: That would maybe remedy brick tanking scouts, but not the bigger picture of plate prevalence and lack of variety. There is also lack of incentive to move to higher class plates, as basics are very simple and efficient. Perhaps have more reasonable penalties for higher level plates? 85 armor for a 2% penalty, 110 for 3%, or 135 for 5%. Drop it to a flat 2% penalty for every level. Also, something to consider about plates. Let's look at some various modules at basic/adv/proto, and their bonuses. Shield extender. 22/33/66. That is a 50% boost at adv, and a 200% boost at proto. Armor rep 2/3/5 That is a 50% boost at adv, and 150% at proto. Codebreaker 10/15/25 That is a 50% boost at adv, and 150% at proto. Damage mod 3/4/5 33% boost at adv, and 66% boost at proto. Armor plates 85/110/135 30% boost at adv, and 59% boost at proto Most weapons 5% boost at adv, 10% boost at proto. I strongly believe that lower tier gear should be relevant, and not literally a third as effective as prototype gear. (Looking at you, shield extenders). Perhaps the tendancy for players to use basic armor plates over adv and proto.... is how things SHOULD be, and other modules should be brought in line with it. Basic/militia is not a synonym for "Joke" and "Worthless" Bottom line: Perhaps the movement penalties for regular plates could use more standardization, but aside from that, they're fine, and should be used as a model for other modules.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13381	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:04:00 - [9] - Quote I see a huge problem as the scaling. A basic plate requires 1 PG and 10 CPU, and gives almost as much as a complex plate which requires 12 PG, 30 CPU, and has over twice the speed penalty. Also, I hear that the strafe penalty on plates is double what descriptions suggest it to be (an artefact of the old penalties). Is that true? Also, typing something up a little more detailed. The tanking problem isn't just limited to armour plate stacking, but also shield extender scaling. A basic shield extender gives such a trivial amount of HP it's not worth using. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
BursegSardaukar Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 342	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:14:00 - [10] - Quote Change bonuses on the suits themselves instead of the plates/reppers. Allow Amarrian suits in certain roles to bonus the HP gained from plates, same with Gallente and reppers/reactive plates. That way reppers themselves won't be OP, but using them on Gallente would make them competitive. CEO of General Tso's Alliance. Winner of Hulkageddon IV. Contact me on my EVE character: Burseg Sardaukar

Oswald Rehnquist 1351	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:22:00 - [11] - Quote 1) Fixing Armor plates Armor plates -> % based Other plates-> Raw EHP + Utility Heavier or armor based suits would use % based plates, while lighter or shield based suits would use raw + utility. As long as the % is higher than the raw+utility plates then you should be able to scale them both down a bit. Also as a tidbit of advice, pro players don't throw on complex armor plates but advance due to the trade off of ehp and penalty bonuses. Result: Scouts go with the armor plates built for speed or regen, which is what they should do and not ehp tank. Heavies and armor based mediums go with % to fill in their "stand and deliver" type of play. The only thing now is scaling 2) Fix Shield Modules Alpha Damage As it currently stands shield extenders are rather poor if one does not duel tank (they are great when duel tanking). Regen is pointless is you can't survive the alpha attack, and in most cases shields do not have what it takes to survive such. Alpha damage in this game is around 400-550 range (which is getting close to max shields) and dps in this game is around 375-500. Other shield modules aren't worth it Again alpha is such a pain to shield tankers that they need all the buffer they can get, and with the severely cpu costly regen modules they are ignored and regulators aren't better than armor plates, which exasperate the first problem. 3) Active Armor Idea Mirror Hardeners Not sure how "active" we are talking about but, a short activated time of reduce damage would suffice mechanically similar to how your tanking mods work. If you want a "passive active" idea like regen mods were which you call "active" then a reduction on the first second of dps given could be something. Below 28 dB
Grimmiers 546	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:22:00 - [12] - Quote Along with tweaking the stat increases, cpu, and pg of the armor plates to be more balanced I think it would be important to add a stacking penalty only for armor plates of the same type. Once you do this players would choose 1 or 2 armor plates and then decide if they want more tank without losing speed, a high repair rate, or a decent repair rate with extra tank. The reactive and ferroscale plates shouldn't take up as much cpu and pg as they do now, but at the same time it should be hard to fit 4 specialty plates. My math might be off, but here's a comparison of 4 basic plates with a stacking penalty. Stacking Penalty: 231.2 No penalty: 340 So you're losing about 1 enhanced plate worth of armor with the penalty. Another oddity is the fact that basic armor plates only take up 10 cpu and 1 pg when the advanced takes up 20cpu 6 pg with only a 25 armor difference.
Starfire Revo DUST University Ivy League 247	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:45:00 - [13] - Quote Sirpidey Adtur wrote: [quote=CCP Rattati]Perhaps have more reasonable penalties for higher level plates? 85 armor for a 2% penalty, 110 for 3%, or 135 for 5%. Drop it to a flat 2% penalty for every level. Agree with pretty much everything else you've said, but 2% seems too little considering how much you get out of it. Would rather see something like a 4 or 5% penalty to encourage the use of ferroscales. Speaking of which, one of the problems I come across when looking at using ferroscales on dropsuits is that I'll often favour the reactive plate to get some self repair. Maybe those 2 plate types are a bit too close to each other and could potentially be rolled into a single type? As for armour reps, something I saw suggested in a Skype group once was changing reps to heal a % of your base armour instead of a flat value. This would make self repair sentinels a bit more viable, at the cost of losing a large chunk of EHP. something like 1.5/1.75/2% of base hp/s would be similar to a single lower quality rep tool. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Raedon Vo-Graza Armored Dragon Corp 16	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:46:00 - [14] - Quote if hear a lot of people when they say that changing from definite amounts to percentages can be a problem( though i like the idea) we could have all plates guzzle pg and cpu (like the cloak) and have suit bonuses to reduce the consumption, scouts would get the least bonuses, and sentinels would get the most. Maybe also we could introduce different variants of armor plate modules, basic light armor, basic medium armor, and basic heavy armor plates, with differing pg/cpu requirements to match.
iliel Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 50	Posted - 2014.05.16 17:05:00 - [15] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We need a lively discussion on this one. Status update (yes I know you know) Plates are being used to stack EHP in over abundance. There is little drawback to that strategy and the other options are not competitive/viable. This is having a big effect on the landscape, both brick tanked scouts and heavies, making scramblers/flux weapons out of place. I would like to hear ideas on how to remedy that. For insight, these are the armor modules ordered by consumption 1. Plates 2. Repair 3. Reactive 4. Ferroscale out of the three plates, normal plates are 85& prevalent and the other two split the difference. How to make them viable, and also a bonus question, can "active" armor tanking be viable without being OP. My GA sentinel with 4 pro reps is not competitive, fun, but not competitive. Discuss. First, the only reason a scout should stack plates is to be even somewhat viable against heavies. The heavy suit is so imbalanced right now. Let me note that I can fit a 2 Complex Plate, Boundless Hmg, and an Adv SMG on a Mlt Gal Heavy Frame. For me to beat with my proto Cal Scout with a Boundless Combat at 40-50 meters I have to land every shot. This is just silly. Fix it first! (Note that I only run one adv armor plate). Second, plate stacking on scouts only makes them more viable than assaults, so why nerf anything with plates when you can first simply buff assaults - - such as, DMG. Give them %5 to their race's weapon per lvl. Then let us play a week to see what happens... Third, plate stacking between scouts IMO is really only an issue when two shotgun scouts meet 1v1. In these, the Gallente scout has the clear advantage (also being more stealthy with two complex dampeners and 2 adv plates). Two combats are not a problem because the speed advantage of the non-stacker can and often does win the 1v1. But the shotgun's range and dmg makes speed less important - - especially if you're not an all-star shotgun user. Personally, I'd suggest some sort of nerf to shotguns rather than plates so that only a prototype shotgun can one-shot a prototype scout. Adv shotguns should not be winning or even tying 1v1's against Six-Kins just because they can cloak, sneak up, and one-shot before they're uncloaked. In sum, don't touch the plates until you rebalance the other obvious issues with the current build: in order of importance, Heavies being OP, Assaults being UP, Shotguns being OP.
Raedon Vo-Graza Armored Dragon Corp 17	Posted - 2014.05.16 17:12:00 - [16] - Quote iliel wrote: First, the only reason a scout should stack plates is to be even somewhat viable against heavies.[/b] scouts are not suppost to go up against heavies. they are the scouts, they move fast, steal hackable things, relay information, and maybe take out a logi or assault from the shadows. beyond that TRYING to go up against a heavy should be an assaults job.
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 870	Posted - 2014.05.16 17:54:00 - [17] - Quote The key issue is fitting costs and scaling (armour vs shields). The basic armour plate is the best bang for fitting cost out of ANY module. Reactive and Ferroscale cost WAY to much to fit, they could also use a small increase in hp too. The shield extenders cost a lot to fit relative to basic armour plates. Also the enhanced shield extender is useless at only 33 HP and it's fitting costs. CCP continues to make the wrong choices, one choice at a time. aka Legion.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 710	Posted - 2014.05.16 17:58:00 - [18] - Quote @ Raedon Vo-Graza A Scout should be quite capable at assassinating a Heavy from behind, and he should have to stack plates to survive the takedown. Whoever told you otherwise was mistaken. @ Oswald / Resistance (on percentage-based values) A Scout often needs tank to survive taking out a Heavy, especially in competitive play. Even assuming perfect technique on the part of the Scout, Heavies are slow to die and quick to pirouette (arguably too quick). I am not arguing in favor of brick-tanked Scouts; I agree that there should be more drawback. I simply disagree with this particular solution.
Raedon Vo-Graza Armored Dragon Corp 18	Posted - 2014.05.16 18:00:00 - [19] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Raedon Vo-Graza A Scout should be quite capable at assassinating a Heavy from behind, and he should have to stack plates to survive the takedown. Whoever told you otherwise was mistaken. @ Oswald / Resistance (on percentage-based values) A Scout often needs tank to survive taking out a Heavy, especially in competitive play. Even assuming perfect technique on the part of the Scout, Heavies are slow to die and quick to pirouette (arguably too quick). I am not arguing in favor of brick-tanked Scouts; I agree that there should be more drawback. I simply disagree with this particular solution. if you get behind a heavy then proto nova knives will cut him to ribbons, still no reason to tank. use your maneuverability to stay away from the pointy side. otherwise you deserve to get filled with holes
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 710	Posted - 2014.05.16 18:10:00 - [20] - Quote Raedon Vo-Graza wrote: if you get behind a heavy then proto nova knives will cut him to ribbons, still no reason to tank. use your maneuverability to stay away from the pointy side. otherwise you deserve to get filled with holes A Scout should seldom, if ever, survive a frontal assault against a Heavy. I suspect we agree on that point. Where we'll likely disagree is on a heavy's rotation speed when up-armored. I'm of the opinion that an up-armored a merc should be slower to respond to threats from behind. I'm of the opinion that a reduction to mobility when stacking plates would fix two problems ... (1) brick-tanked scouts and (2) pirouetting heavies.

Raedon Vo-Graza Armored Dragon Corp 18	Posted - 2014.05.16 18:19:00 - [21] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Raedon Vo-Graza wrote: if you get behind a heavy then proto nova knives will cut him to ribbons, still no reason to tank. use your maneuverability to stay away from the pointy side. otherwise you deserve to get filled with holes A Scout should seldom, if ever, survive a frontal assault against a Heavy. I suspect we agree on that point. Where we'll disagree is on that heavy's rotation speed when up-armored. I'm of the opinion that the more armor a merc is wearing, the slower he should be able to respond to threats from behind. actually i do agree with you, i do think heavies need a small decrease in rotation speed. play heavy once in a blue moon and it's like a shooting gallery. while they should be feared on the map, the should not spin so fast.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 712	Posted - 2014.05.16 18:29:00 - [22] - Quote Raedon Vo-Graza wrote: actually i do agree with you, i do think heavies need a small decrease in rotation speed. play heavy once in a blue moon and it's like a shooting gallery. while they should be feared on the map, the should not spin so fast. Exactly! And I think the same concept could be applied to curb the predominance of brick-tanked Scouts. If a Scout stacks plates, then that Scout should more vulnerable to attacks from behind than a Scout who does not. * Shield-tankers are already extremely vulnerable to attacks from behind (i.e. flux grenades).
JP Acuna Pendejitos Zero-Day 155	Posted - 2014.05.16 18:31:00 - [23] - Quote I do use complex ferroscale plates on my Gal-scout. I did use Complex Reactives before the suit had self-reps. On every non-Heavy suit i only use basic armor plates, because i don't like the speed penalty. Reactive plates should be used by shield tankers i guess, but the requirements are too high. My suggestion is: Don't nerf armor. Buff shields, make them viable. If shield extenders were better, we would see many more people using Regulators and Rechargers, which i think no one is really using right now. No one wants to sacrifice an extender for a recharger, except maybe a Cal-Heavy. This would also help to make weapons that are good on shields attractive again.
Raedon Vo-Graza Armored Dragon Corp 18	Posted - 2014.05.16 18:35:00 - [24] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Raedon Vo-Graza wrote: actually i do agree with you, i do think heavies need a small decrease in rotation speed. play heavy once in a blue moon and it's like a shooting gallery. while they should be feared on the map, the should not spin so fast. Exactly! And I think the same concept could be applied to curb the predominance of brick-tanked Scouts. If a Scout opts to forgo mobility and stack plates, then that Scout should lose his ability to instantly pirouette in response to flank attack. my other idea was to copy a bf4 trait, (you notice it most when you are prone. mhm! ccp! mhm) that was while you can rotate and all, the first 15 degrees or so to the left or right would be quick because you are twisting your body, but after that you would slow down because you are rotating your whole body around, i think this mechanic would be great here.
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 491	Posted - 2014.05.16 18:43:00 - [25] - Quote Something as simple as bringing back the old speed penalties to plates would help greatly. I feel that the Armor Repair Skill should apply to Reactive Plates as well. Possibly make Standard Variant Armor Plates unusable on Scout Suits, due to it "severely inhibiting their performance". Add a new Light Armor type for Scout Suits only. Not sure if possible with only hotfixes viable now. Ferroscale would see a bump in usage with a slight HP buff. Remove speed penalty from Reactive Plates. Just some thoughts. Stacking armor plates is the true FoTM. Make the other modules more appealing!
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 704	Posted - 2014.05.16 18:53:00 - [26] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: 1) Fixing Armor plates Armor plates -> % based Other plates-> Raw EHP + Utility Heavier or armor based suits would use % based plates, while lighter or shield based suits would use raw + utility. As long as the % is higher than the raw+utility plates then you should be able to scale them both down a bit. Also as a tidbit of advice, pro players don't throw on complex armor plates but advance due to the trade off of ehp and penalty bonuses. Result: Scouts go with the armor plates built for speed or regen, which is what they should do and not ehp tank. Heavies and armor based mediums go with % to fill in their "stand and deliver" type of play. The only thing now is scaling 2) Fix Shield Modules Alpha Damage As it currently stands shield extenders are rather poor if one does not duel tank (they are great when duel tanking). Regen is pointless if you can't survive the alpha attack, and in most cases shields do not have what it takes to survive such. Alpha damage in this game is around 400-550 range (which is getting close to max shields) and dps in this game is around 375-500. Other shield modules aren't worth it Again alpha is such a pain to shield tankers that they need all the buffer they can get, and with the severely cpu costly regen modules they are ignored and regulators aren't better than armor plates, which exasperate the first problem. 3) Active Armor Idea Mirror Hardeners Not sure how "active" we are talking about but, a short activated time of reduce damage would suffice mechanically similar to how your tanking mods work. If you want a "passive active" idea like regen mods were which you call "active" then a reduction on the first second of dps given could be something. This was more or less my solution to create variety. Regular armor plates should be percentage based while reactive and ferroscale are absolute. The latter need slightly easier fitting costs and a little buffing. Shield Extenders need to be both increased and their fitting costs reworked. 22 HP is barely worth using and the fitting costs for 66 HP isn't worth it since it is more than running three basic extenders. It is inefficient. I don't like active hardeners, they suck and are abused on tanks and they will suck and be abused on dropsuits. Armor repairers are Ok where they are at, they don't heal you unless you have a lot of time but we want rep tools to be valuable still. Because, that's why.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2140	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:04:00 - [27] - Quote Add rep to all the suit and then nerf HP of the plates. Less HP ----> better regen Then if you want to tank you have to use all your slot, but you don't sacrify all your reps. PSN: ogamega I'm here to bla bla bla...
Vespasian Andendare Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 991	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:18:00 - [28] - Quote Plates are being fit in overabundance for a couple of reasons. Fitting on suits is nuts. Armor doesn't cost that much to fit (buffer of both varieties doesn't really), so there's no incentive NOT to fit plates whenever possible. They provide the most-hp-per-isk around. The movement speed penalty isn't high enough to scare armor tankers off. You guys have to incentivize the use of repairs and plates. One solution would be to add pretty sizable speed penalties to plates (maybe 5-10-15%) but give Amarr suits a reduction to these fitting penalties in the form of suit bonuses (or if you don't like that, role bonuses even). That way, Amarr suits would be ideal in fitting heavy plates (since they would received a much lower speed penalty (say, the bonus is -50% penalty), matching their racial style of heavy, but slow tanks) while its use on other suits would be disincentivized. Next, buff armor repair module amounts. They are hardly worth fitting now. The "vision" behind armor repair is that they continue to repair "even during battle!" But, the repair amount is so piddly that it doesn't really make sense to regenerate (even fitting many reps) ~17.5 hp/5 when weapons are doing FAR more than that. Certainly, don't match them, because you don't want unkillable repairs, but make it competitive. I'm not going to sacrifice all buffer tank on a suit for reps when the repair amount per second isn't even remotely near the damage I'm going to take. Shield suits can sort of get away with this, because they have low downtimes between recharge, and a properly fit shield suit can regenerate shields nearly to full in a few seconds of cover. Armor WISHES it could compete--during battle or not. Adding Gallente suit bonuses (through role bonus or similar) to repair amount is another way to incentivize armor repair use on Gallente suits and not have them broken for everyone else. >> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! <<
tastzlike chicken ROGUE SPADES 278	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:29:00 - [29] - Quote A few initial thoughts: 1. Before messing with any EHP or DPS equipment please fix the slow-down effect and dial down the the aim assist then pull the knobs off of those particular controls so nobody f's with them again. 2. Create Small, medium, and large armor plate categories. Any suit may be fitted with plates of the equivalent or lesser category. (e.g. a medium frame can use medium and small armor plates but not large.) Scale the bonuses and movement penalties by meta level and category(frame size). 3. Shields need love. At the time I stopped playing regularly (way before 1.8) the curiously strong Aim assist and the bullet slow down effect made dedicated shield tanking a silly option for most frames. I believe the shield modules need to be buffed across the board (though slowly and incrementally) They should have stacking penalties apply to the suits scan profile. And there should be a high slot module that hardens the suit against flux grenades (% decrease in damage from flux grenades). -Such that with "X" number of such modules in the high slots and max skills the FLUX grenades are unable to affect the suits native shield amount significantly -but any extender derived points are stripped. -something like that. I support legion. - it's more of a theoretical support. Depending on the feedback I get, it may become actual support.
tastzlike chicken ROGUE SPADES 278	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:32:00 - [30] - Quote posting error. I support legion. - it's more of a theoretical support. Depending on the feedback I get, it may become actual support.

matsumoto yuichi san SVER True Blood Dirt Nap Squad. 42	Posted - 2014.05.16 19:55:00 - [31] - Quote well for one if the ferroscale / reactive weren't terrible fitting efficiency wise then they would see more use, and it would also give opportunity to reduce the effectiveness of the normal plates, but more importantly i thing normal plates need better scaling might just help doing that alone though. but all that is secondary this is the core issue at hand, and why plate stacking is too effective PLATES ARE JUST AS GOOD ON EVERY SUIT IF YOU CAN FIT THEM same goes for shield, but plates are the core issue right now, so as shield focused suit i have no reason not to fit plates, they don't hurt a ton, and more importantly they aren't LESS effective than my desired tank, EVE has this solved by the fact that there is WAYYY more to a good tank than raw hp, and dust raw hp / regen is all we have. so the slot counts relatively speaking mean more to an eve player. looking at regen rates though, shield should get even better at it;s thing, i'd give it slightly longer delays but wayy amp up the recharge rate, so once you disengage you heal very fast, but more delay before that kicks in. so say 6s delay but 100+ hp/s to balance armor regen now we've slapped plates about and made stacking basics a silly waste of fitting and since armor is always on it just needs a buff so it matters in terms of dps it seems the dps of the average mainline gun (assuming real world trigger pull rate) is 400 mark theoretical toss in players miss and assume 50%, so by that note, an complex armor repair should make that effectively 10% less dps, so 20 hp/s or so on a complex repair, 6% for adv and 3% for basic gives us 12/s and 6/s respectively. in this scenario stacking repair modules gives you advantage in 1v1, but many v1 not as much, and more importantly you still recover far slower than the new shield regen rates, this also makes bringing the reduction up a little. lastly back to reactives and ferroscales, i would see 1 reactive ~= 1 armor + 1 rep from the tier lower, with a slight fitting benefit, so a complex reactive is 12/s hp and whatever an advanced is armor
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1512	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:15:00 - [32] - Quote Stopped reading after increase shield delay, -1 Closed beta vet.
Earl Crushinator Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 209	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:24:00 - [33] - Quote I'm a big fan of active armor tanking on a minmatar logi suit... Probably a throwback to when they have the innate armor repair bonus. The fitting cost for amour plates should be inline with Shield extenders or at least directly proportional to the amount of HP they provide. Ferroscale plates should have the same fitting costs as the normal plates but at a reduced Armor HP gain.
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 430	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:59:00 - [34] - Quote Ok, first of all: From what I've seen, skill bonuses to armor plates and reppers do not apply to ferroscales and reactive plates. That's one of the reasons why those modules are less attractive. On tanking styles: Shields might profit from higher customizability. This means that modules would simply have more extreme bonuses, with far higher penalties. For example, shield extenders don't just give a bit of HP and a small penalty to recharge delay, but instead add a huge penalty to recharge delay and add a lot of HP. The idea is that you are free to front-load armor, while paying the price afterwards. A front-loaded armor will be good in a stand-up fight, but it will take ages to regenerate and there's no repair tools to help you fix that issue. Meanwhile, a hit and run player could use shield loading modules to have basically instant regeneration. They'd have a higher recharge delay, which wouldn't be as high as with shield extenders, but it wouldn't matter for someone who intends to go in, kill a few dudes and then go into hiding. I'd also suggest changing the modules and their associated penalties to make this system abuse-free. Shield regulators + shield extenders might be completely broken otherwise. As for active tanking, the idea of pulsing regeneration that someone mentioned sounds interesting. In contrast to shields, it would run constantly, independant of damage taken - A timer in the lower left, using the same indicator as active equipment, would indicate when a big chunk of HP would be restored. This would affect the tactics - Amarr would use the brute force of their armor, while Gallente has to fight tooth and nail to survive, because each second of survival is another second closer to the next burst of healing. It also fits nicely with their close-range nature in terms of weapons. For this, passive heal would still be active all the time, but active heal would be added on top. However, I'm not sure how exactly it should be implemented and if passive heal would need to be toned down. My first idea was some kind of reversed stacking penalty - Equip a repper and you gain an inert active tanking module, which is not accessible through the player's UI, in contrast to other equipment. Add another repper and the active tanking module goes active and starts pulsing with a fixed cooldown. Add a third and fourth to strengthen the rep bursts even more. Hell, you could link this to reactive plates, which could lower the delay between pulses. I'm not sure if that's even possible under your current constraints, though.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 770	Posted - 2014.05.16 21:30:00 - [35] - Quote Hi. I would like to speak about my experiences armor tanking. I've armor tanked nearly all of my suits since chromosome and currently my primary suits is the Amarr scout. I generally run 1-2 Complex reactive plates on my fits. I really like how they are but I would like to point out how ridiculous they are to fit for what you get. One complex reactive plate costs 36 CPU and 16 PG for 60 armor, 2hp/s and a 1% movement penalty while a basic plate and a basic repair will give me 85 armor, the same penalty and rep for 30 CPU and 2 PG. They either need reduced fitting costs or have a higher repair rate. TDBS "Does Krin want his gun back?" - sub random nub
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 1535	Posted - 2014.05.16 21:54:00 - [36] - Quote I think regular plates cost too little given the significant benefits they give as it stands. That may not be the case if stats change, but as the stats are now, there is too little sacrifice. "I've made a huge mistake." -G.O.B. Bluth
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 785	Posted - 2014.05.16 22:02:00 - [37] - Quote Here's an illustrative example of just how hugely overpowered basic plates are, compared to their minuscule fitting costs. http://i.imgur.com/SDHzvbp.png Dust/Eve transfers
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 516	Posted - 2014.05.16 22:07:00 - [38] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Here's an illustrative example of just how hugely overpowered basic plates are, compared to their minuscule fitting costs. http://i.imgur.com/SDHzvbp.png So much this. And then some more. Now, look at it again. Also, print it and paste it over your screen so you get to look at it some more.
Marc Rime 399	Posted - 2014.05.16 22:16:00 - [39] - Quote Either: - Give all suits a built in repair rate (even shield suits should have 1hp/sec, while other suits get more). This will allow you to lower the armour values of normal plates slightly since they don't have to be balanced around the need of a repair module in one or more lows.[/list] or: - Make armour repairers high slot modules. This should allow you to lower the armour values of normal plates quite a bit. (or both of the above ;)).[/list] Furthermore: - Add a penalty when stacking more than two plates. For instance, you could severly increase the speed penalty (or just lower the additional armour you get). [/list]
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10798	Posted - 2014.05.16 22:32:00 - [40] - Quote Reactives and ferroscales are awful. There have been many threads on the subject (1) (2). They either need a buff, OR a decrease in PG/CPU. Cat Merc wrote: Reactive armor plates and Ferroscale armor plates have enough downsides without prohibitve CPU/PG requirements. Ferroscale plates at the complex level give the same HP as a basic plate. Reactive plates at the complex level give 2hp/s and half of that of a basic plate. There is no reason for either of those to cost so much CPU/PG. Infact you could argue they should require less CPU/PG than normal plates because: Ferroscale: With the speed penalties being reduced in the armor buff, ferroscale plates have less appeal. Having them be a low CPU/PG option would be more appealing. Reactive plates: If you stack all four of a Gallente Assault low slots, it would still be worse than just a couple of plates and a couple of repairers. Having lower CPU/PG would be more appealing. However for reactive plates you could argue that it's an "all in one" package, so the CPU/PG should match normal plates. tl;dr: Ferroscale plates should require less CPU/PG than normal plates Reactive plates should cost as much CPU/PG as normal plates Zeylon Rho wrote: This is with new numbers and bonuses: A) 2 x Complex Reactive 66 hp, 1% speed penalty, 2 hp/s repair @ 36 CPU 16 PG = 132 hp, 2% speed penalty, 4 hp/s @ 72 CPU 32 PG B) 1 Enhanced Plate 117 hp, 3% speed penalty @ 20 CPU 6 PG & 1 Enhanced Armor repairer 3.45 hp/s @ 35 CPU 5 PG = 117 hp, 3% speed penalty, 3.45 hp/s 55 CPU 11 PG A.----vs.----B. 132 vs. 117 hp 2% vs. 3% speed penalty 4 vs. 3.45 hp/s repair 72 vs. 55 CPU 32 vs. 11 PG Results? Reactive plates give you 15 more hp, 1% faster move speed, and 0.15 more repair at a cost of 17 more CPU and 21 more PG. For reference the total PG of a MLT Gallente Frame is 25 PG; so, just the surplus PG needed to operate the plates is about the same as the entire PG allotment on a MLT suit. How popular would a low slot module that gives 15 hp, 0.15 repair, and subtracts 1% from move penalty be at 17 CPU 21 PG I wonder? Sort of... it gets better: SP cost: A) requires Armor Plating 5 Total: 932,760 SP B) requires Armor Plating 3 and Armor Repair Systems 3 cost 205,200 SP x 2 Total: 410,400 SP You get: 15 more hp, 1% faster move speed, and 0.15 more repair at a cost of 17 more CPU and 21 more PG AFTER you spend 522,360 MORE SP. You have to spend over twice as much SP for plates that are notably worse than these ADV modules. Edit: Here's some potential Reactive stats I was brainstorming with a few pages in. These would require both Armor Plate and Armor Repairer skills for each rank: 15/4 - 50hp, 2%, 1hp/s 30/10 - 70hp, 3%, 2hp/s 45/17 - 90hp, 4%, 3hp/s Seem more useful? I think shield modules are in need of buffing before deciding if armor modules should be nerfed. Shield tanking needs to be more attractive; basic and enhanced shield extenders are useless. Even to shield tankers, armor modules are much more useful than shield regulators. Currently shield extenders are 22 at basic (1 shot and its gone), 33 enhanced (one shot and its likely gone), and 66 at complex (good). The complex is 100% better than the advanced, the scaling is clearly wrong. Shield extenders should instead be 44 standard, 55 enhanced, and 66 complex. Shield regulators need a serious buff on all tiers, they need to be preferable to stacking plates if you are shield tanking. Currently they are 10% at basic, 20% at enhanced (huge jump), and 25% at complex (tiny jump). The scaling is clearly wrong. Shield regulators should instead be 20% basic, 30% enhanced, and 40% at complex. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+

RECON BY FIRE Imperfects Negative-Feedback 396	Posted - 2014.05.16 23:26:00 - [41] - Quote First off, if youre not "competitive" with 4 complex reps on a Gallente Heavy, you need to "git gud." I don't know its viability in PC, but in pubs its more than adequate. Outside of that though, the big imbalance with armor plates is how much HP they give for such a small fitting cost and how little HP shield extenders give for such a large fitting cost. It makes no sense that armor plates are supposed to be heavily PG intensive, but I can fit my suit with more HP with armor than shields and still have waaaaaay more PG left over than I could ever hope to on a shield suit. Stuff....?

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1123	Posted - 2014.05.17 00:58:00 - [42] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Here's an illustrative example of just how hugely overpowered basic plates are, compared to their minuscule fitting costs. http://i.imgur.com/SDHzvbp.png Like more please "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Moonracer2000 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 783	Posted - 2014.05.17 06:08:00 - [43] - Quote A few out there balance ideas (some have been shared by others in the past): Shield extenders increase scan profile (stealth penalty). Larger frame sizes get a reduction to movement penalty (module penalty increased at same time) so light frames are slowed down more. Reduce HP bonus of plates so they can't significantly alter the total HP of any class (maybe closer to reactive/ferroscale plates). Add a high slot armor module (either move or make a variant of armor repair module) more effective+higher power requirements? [*] Increase effectiveness of non shield/armor modules to make them more popular options(or lower shield/armor modules effectiveness to get same results). Ashes to ashes, Dust to PC.
Haerr Legio DXIV 639	Posted - 2014.05.17 07:08:00 - [44] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Here's an illustrative example of just how hugely overpowered basic plates are, compared to their minuscule fitting costs. http://i.imgur.com/SDHzvbp.png QFT. 1. Plates General: The HP per PG varies to much between tiers. Speed Penalty per HP(1): Is to low, especially so on Basic & Enhanced because they take up far less PG than Complex. Speed Penalty per HP(2): I suggest that the Speed Penalty should be higher per HP on Basic and Enhanced than on Complex as this will give a reason to go with Complex Plates over lower tiered ones even though they will have a higher % penalty. 2. Repair General: The HP/s per PG varies to much between tiers. HP/s per PG: Should be kept the same between tiers, or rather HP/s modified by skill per PG. (At the very least closer to each other.) 3. Reactive General: Allow the Repair skill to enhance repair rate. Speed penalty per HP: Keep it the same as Plates. 4. Ferroscale General: Keep PG cost of each tier the same as Plates and adjust HP to match. HP per PG(1): As a trade off for not having any speed penalty it should be lower than Plates. HP per PG(2): It ought to be higher than Reactive since it only does HP and no Repair. Ways to incentivise higher tier modules; Higher HP per PG, Lower Speed Penalty per HP I want to question the balance between: 1 Repair + 1 Plate _vs_ 2 Reactives Make one choice have better HP+HP/s per fitting requirement and the other Higher HP+HP/s per module slot as a way to make both choices preferable from different standpoints. Overall balance would be served by lowering HP per slot and increasing Speed Penalty per slot. Remember that a higher percentage Speed Penalty hits quicker suits harder than slower suits. (And with stacking penalty removed from the speed penalty in 1.7 putting on more plates on a Scout suit is even more off putting with higher percentages.) Realising this however is dependant on balancing the CR and HMG as even with over the top plates they are quite simply to good and since they are to good now lowering the HP from plates without addressing them would make them even more ridiculously OP.
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 234	Posted - 2014.05.17 11:09:00 - [45] - Quote You need to have a Shield Repair Gun that way shield tank will work. Code it so you can only be able to be armored or shield rep not both.
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 234	Posted - 2014.05.17 11:12:00 - [46] - Quote People use armor because of the rep tool backup . There is not backup for shield tank. We need a Shield rep tool
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 570	Posted - 2014.05.17 12:01:00 - [47] - Quote Unless you're proposing an increase to the native HP of medium frames, I think any plan for nerfing plates is going to hurt logis and assaults in a significant way. Remember, you're worried about tanked scouts and bricked heavies. However, mediums rely on eHP mods to survive against those guys. If hurting logis and assaults is the only way to accomplish that goal, then I think you need to go back to the drawing board.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2361	Posted - 2014.05.17 15:46:00 - [48] - Quote One thing you could do with plates is reduce max PG by a %. As you go up in tier this penalty could be less. I'm not sure where you could make this balance out, thought. It would effectively make each piece 'cost' the delta in lost PG, but the suits that already start with a lot of PG are the ones that would lose the most, and stacking them on PRO suits would actually be counter productive. They would have the highest fitting cost on PRO suits.
RECON BY FIRE Imperfects Negative-Feedback 397	Posted - 2014.05.17 22:11:00 - [49] - Quote That is another good point I see, add rep hives and tools for shields or remove rep hives for armor. See how balance pans out. One of the main reasons armor is OP is because you can completely self sustain by using basic plates to free up fitting and then put on some proto rep hives and rep 40 to 80 (in some cases more) HP a second. There is no possible way to do this with shields. Lets not forget that the hives and tools constantly rep while shields stop repping when you get shot. Stuff....?
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2361	Posted - 2014.05.18 01:47:00 - [50] - Quote Alright, did some math and here's what my suggestion would end up with as far as speed penalties go (chart). As far as speed penalty goes, it makes it so scouts using 4 complex plates would be heavily slowed, and assaults would actually be best suited to stack plates and not be slowed too much. It would make heavy suits actually a bit faster than they are currently with plates. Logistics would be significantly slower than assaults who stack plates making assault suits some of the best combinations of fast and heavy suits out there. I also suggested a few tweaks to fitting costs. I kept all the same HP as is currently there, but tailored the 'fitting cost curves' of each module class as follows: Shield's HP/CPU cost stays constant as you increase from STD to PRO, the HP/PG drops a little as you go up. Regular plates mostly keep their curve, advance plates drop a bit of fitting cost to make them a little more attractive. Ferroscale plates are stay much less efficient than regular plates, while only slightly better than shields. Would probably be the better/best option for scouts. Reactive plates get a flattening to their HP/CPU cost line while becoming LESS efficient at HP/PG than shields.

Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2361	Posted - 2014.05.18 02:17:00 - [51] - Quote *New Armor Dropsuit/Armor Attribute* Dropsuit Core Basically each dropsuit gets a 'core agility' rating that armor modules take away from, and biotic modules COULD add to. So then rather than speed penalties (speedscale in the SDE) being 95% on a complex plate, for example, each regular plate, reactive plate, and ferroscale plate gets an agility rating. (see page 1-2) Each then dropsuit gets its own 'core inertia/agility rating'. (see page 4) Scouts get a 50-150 Logistics get 150-300 Assaults get 300-450 Heavies get 450-1000 The total agility rating from your armor modules is subtracted from your agility rating, then divided by the core inertia again, to give your 'inertia factor' that affects your running and sprint speed. See page 3 to see a comparison of the before/after speeds of different suits. (page 4-5 has a table with numbers) Agility factor = (core inertia - module inertia)/(core inertia) So the higher your core inertia/agility the more you can stack plates without a penalty. You could make each dropsuit have a minimum possible inertia or a universal minimum speed penalty currently my chart assumes a minimum penalty of 15% inertia factor. Also, the agility factors of the Eve races would come in to play here too. Gallente would be the most agile, followed by minmatar, then amarr, then caldari. So example. You want to put 3x complex reactive plates on an amarr scout ak.0 that has a core inertia of 75. Complex reactive plates have an inertia of 5 times 3 reactive plates or 15 total inertia. (75-15)/75=80% agility factor. The agility factor is what reduces your base and sprint speed. So while your original ground speed was 5.25 m/s, your new speed would be 4.2 m/s with a max skill sprint speed of 6.174. You can quickly see, looking at page 4, that if you stack complex plates on scouts you will be moving at 55% base speed at best. On logistics this would get you in the 70%-80% base speed range. Even stacking ADV regular plates on scouts would be significantly detrimental. Putting 1 STD plates on a Caldari scout would probably be about as bad as 2 STD plates on a Gallente scout (about 80% base speed). -This change would help the scouts stacking armor because it would make them slower than medium suits if they did. -This change would make armor assaults faster than armor logistics because the logistics would get a lower base core inertia factor. -This change would not negatively hurt armor heavies stacking plates. -This change would make brick tanking caldari suits slower than their armor counterparts but amarr suits would possibly be semi-bricked, although their lower base fitting amount and HP would make this a non-factor.
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 2655	Posted - 2014.05.18 02:41:00 - [52] - Quote Basic plate has best pg/CPU economy relative to HP bonus. Ferro and reactive are too pg CPU hungry and too weak.
Spankdamonke Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2014.05.18 05:44:00 - [53] - Quote Hmm....just throwing things out at the moment, and alot of these have been mentioned already. A) As others have said, an increase in CPU / PG relative to the supplied HP would help. And / or reversing the speed penalties so that complex plates offer the most protection and least speed reduction (kept in check by the massive suit power requirements, and gives players a reason to upgrade plates beyond basic) B) In addition to the normal movement penalty, I also favor the rotation speed reduction that others have suggested (though with the option to adjust sensitivity, this may not be a good solution) C) SERIOUSLY buff shield extenders. a 44 / 66 / 88 approach might sound ridiculous...but as others have said, basic armor plates offer vastly more hp for their cost. Not to mention, if a majority of the player base wanted to then attempt to shield tank, flux grenades would again have more utility. The increase could offset by an increase in their current penalty to recharge delay. Or if so desired, a new category for these stronger extenders that also decreases shield recharge rate by a specific amount (just like energizers affect total shield strength) This would give more variety but come at a good cost. D) A multiplicative speed reduction for stacking multiple plates (if a basic plate is a 2% speed reduction, the next would be 4%, the next 8%, and so on) However, we run into the problem of mixing and matching plates.....so this would require some thought to even it out.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2361	Posted - 2014.05.18 05:47:00 - [54] - Quote Spankdamonke wrote: Hmm....just throwing things out at the moment, and alot of these have been mentioned already. A) As others have said, an increase in CPU / PG relative to the supplied HP would help. And / or reversing the speed penalties so that complex plates offer the most protection and least speed reduction (kept in check by the massive suit power requirements, and gives players a reason to upgrade plates beyond basic) B) In addition to the normal movement penalty, I also favor the rotation speed reduction that others have suggested (though with the option to adjust sensitivity, this may not be a good solution) C) SERIOUSLY buff shield extenders. a 44 / 66 / 88 approach might sound ridiculous...but as others have said, basic armor plates offer vastly more hp for their cost. Not to mention, if a majority of the player base wanted to then attempt to shield tank, flux grenades would again have more utility. The increase could offset by an increase in their current penalty to recharge delay. Or if so desired, a new category for these stronger extenders that also decreases shield recharge rate by a specific amount (just like energizers affect total shield strength) This would give more variety but come at a good cost. D) A multiplicative speed reduction for stacking multiple plates (if a basic plate is a 2% speed reduction, the next would be 4%, the next 8%, and so on) However, we run into the problem of mixing and matching plates.....so this would require some thought to even it out. looking at the sde, the plates already affect turn speed while running/sprinting but not still
Cardio Therapy Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 19	Posted - 2014.05.18 08:59:00 - [55] - Quote Please donGÇÖt make the plates armour percentage. It will destroy the game. The best thing in this game is customisation. If I want to make an armour assault with the armour of a commando or even sentinel let me be. If I want to make and armoured scout to match by HP the assault let me be. This makes that game awesome. What makes us survive in the field? : Speed / strafe, HP (armour/shield), detection of enemies, non-detection of us (surprise). /remove the invisibility please/ Here is my suggestion for balancing. It is rather stupid idea so you will not miss if you donGÇÖt read it. It is also long nüè First let us assume that we have all skills at lvl 5: armour plating, shield extenders, biotics, precision, dampening. I donGÇÖt look on cpu & pg for now. http://1drv.ms/1jrbgS1 My suggestion is the plates to be basic 80hp, adv 100hp, complex 135hp Speed reduction to be according dropsuit frame: basicadvcomplex light 4% 5% 6% medium2% 3% 4% heavy1% 2% 3% Also add 1% speed reduction for all ferroscale plates for scouts only. Then we have balance. If I want to armour my scout it is ok but it will become slow as assault. If I want to armour my assault like sentinel it will become slow as heavy. Some calculations: These are the basic stats with all skills to lvl 5 Basic armorshieldmov. spd scan profilescan precision Scout G1 162 87 5.72 23.6 36 Assault G1262 150 5.25 45 45 Sentinel G1656 487 4.04 54 49.5 We see that scout is with lower hp but fast and small. Sentinel is high hp and dmg resistances but big and slow. What happens when we armour a Gallente scout to have the same armour like the assault: scout + 1 basic plate(to equalize the armour ) armorshieldmov. spd scan profile scan precision Scout G1 262 87 5.49 23.6 36 Assault G1 262 150 5.25 45 45 If we want to have the same combined hp, but to use only armour plates on the scout: scout + 1 complex plate to even the hp armorshieldmov. spd scan profile scan precision Scout G1 330 87 5.37 23.6 36 Assault G1 262 150 5.25 45 45 Combined scout HP GÇô 417 / assault combined HP 412 GÇô no significant difference. We have used one slot of the scout armour. The speed is very similar now. Still the scout has better scan profile and precision which gives him advantage in battle as he will see the assault when remaining undetected. The assault has more slots and weapon advantage. scout + 3 complex platesAssault + 1 x complex & 2 x adv armorshieldmov. spd scan profilescan precision Scout G1 668 87 4.7 23.6 36 Assault G1680 150 4.72 45 45 Here are proto suits with max armour for the scout, and needed plates for the assault to match the same armour. Here the armour difference is negligible and speed is the same. The advantage of the scout is scan precision and profile, smaller size / less hit surface, strafe speed??, more cpu/pg, more stamina and faster stamina reg. We have one more remaining low slot on assault so we will add one complex dampener. scout + 3 complex platesAssault + 1 x complex & 2 x adv & 1 x com damp armorshieldmov. spd scan profilescan precision Scout gk0 668 87 4.7 23.6 36 Assault gk0 680 150 4.72 33.75 45 Now it is even more balanced. The assault will still not see the scout but also the scout will not see the assault. If the scout wants to go to precision enhancer instead of shield extender he will be able to see the assault but will still have less HP. I think we have some acceptable balance here between an armoured scout and assault with both having differentiation advantages.
Cardio Therapy Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 19	Posted - 2014.05.18 09:00:00 - [56] - Quote /SECOND PART/ :) Here is the sentinel: Assault + 4 com plates & 3 comp ext / sentinel + 3 x basic plates armorshieldmov. spd scan profilescan precision Assault gk0 937 3974.41 45 45 Sentinel gk0 956 4873.92 54 49.5 This a max HP assault with 1334 combined HP. The sentinel is balanced to have similar HP and speed with combined HP of 1443. Lower armour for the assault but higher speed, smaller frame, better profile and precision. Sentinel on the other hand has left free slots and suit resistances. If we add one dampener to the sentinel it will be invisible for the assault passive scanning. If they meet in close combat the sentinel will win if long range the assault with AR will win. To be even more balanced remove the invisibility from the cloak. The 25% dampening is more than enough. Nothing can pare with an undetectable invisible fast slayer that can kill with 1-2 shots (knives/shotgun), doesnGÇÖt matter of the armour. Coming killing and leaving. You donGÇÖt see him and you donGÇÖt hear. It is undetectable even for gallente proto scanner with gal logi bonus. Cloak is invisibility for radars not for eyes. It is enough that scouts have 2 equipment slots and can use a device that reduces their scan profile with additional 25%. This makes them undetectable for all the scanners and combined with their speed is enough. Assault and commando are supposed to be the slayers, sentinels strategic point defence / enemy vehicles control, logi and scouts support. Scouts also tactical infiltrators. AND fix the scanners I invested up to lv 5. The tables a complete mess so if you want to see it here: http://1drv.ms/1jrbgS1
Cardio Therapy Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 19	Posted - 2014.05.18 09:51:00 - [57] - Quote I did similar calculations for Caldari and the result is the same. the plates need just little rebalancing to make them all equally usable. When you a 100 kg a 10 kg more will not you slow dows as much as 10 kg on 50kg preson. additional the reactive plates hp regen can be increased a little as well as the rep mods, but not a lot. in my oppinion looking at Caldari calculation the shields are OK having in mind that they regen quite well. only the basic and adv can be tuned up. basic 33hp and adv 44hp, complex 66hp.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1184	Posted - 2014.05.18 11:03:00 - [58] - Quote Absolutely fantastic feedback, we will be back with proposals in this spirit once we crunch our own numbers. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 59	Posted - 2014.05.18 11:29:00 - [59] - Quote CCP Rattati please listen to me. I heard that there's talk about nerfing ALL ARMOR PLATES on dropsuits. This is a BAD, BAD, BAD IDEA. There was a huge effort to make 1.8 have an increased TTK (Time to Kill) and this will completely negate that effort. If you are concerned about Shields, then YES BUFF SHIELDS. Shields are very underpowered and if anything needs to be changed it is shields. Edit: If you want proof of the weight of my opinion then listen to this. I am a full proto Amarr Sentinel and right now Gallente and other Amarr Sentinels are my nemeses. Specifically Gallente. I can kill them but I have to aim every single bullet at their head. To me I think this is a perfect challenge to keep me on my toes. If you nerf armor you will make those heavies, among everything else MUCH easier to kill. In fact nerfing armor plates will make HMGs the official God mode, unbeatable weapon. Furthermore I think everything in this game is balanced except tanks VS infantry, shield tanking dropsuits, the combat rifle, the assault rifle, and the cloak VS Gal Logi. If I missed anything forgive me but as Rattati said, we probably won't get fixes for things like sniper rifle zoom and graphics rendering at a distance. GûéGûäGûà /Gûî /Gûî /Gûî Gûî GûêGûêGûàGûâGûé IGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê] GùÑGèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGùñn++
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 59	Posted - 2014.05.18 11:43:00 - [60] - Quote RECON BY FIRE wrote: First off, if youre not "competitive" with 4 complex reps on a Gallente Heavy, you need to "git gud." I don't know its viability in PC, but in pubs its more than adequate. Let me put it this way. You'd better hope you don't run into someone like me with HMG Proficiency 5. I'd tear that apart even if it was proto and I was using my basic Amarr heavy with militia gear. GûéGûäGûà /Gûî /Gûî /Gûî Gûî GûêGûêGûàGûâGûé IGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê] GùÑGèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGùñn++

Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13488	Posted - 2014.05.18 13:19:00 - [61] - Quote Velociraptor, I think you're overreacting slightly. Rattati isn't here suggesting that we all go on about how armour should be nerfed into the ground, how OP it is, etc, this thread is about rejigging the modules so that more armour tanking styles than just stacking basic plates become viable (like active armour repair). My own thoughts are that basic plates are horrendously out of whack. 1 PG 10 CPU for that chunk of HP means that using higher tier plates starts to get silly, especially when the speed penalty on those increases as well. The most economical way of tanking at the moment is simply to stack basic plates. That is a bad thing. I also feel that a lot of complaints about armour come from the state of shields. There are some flaws in shield design at the moment - 22 HP basic extenders, for example, sometimes make zero difference whatsoever to TTK if you fit them. That's not strictly on topic here though, I have another thread up at https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=162638&find=unread for that. Aside from the inherent superiority of stacking normal plates, the lack of use for ferroscales and reactives stems from there not being any reason to use them at all. Reactive plates are simply inferior to plate/rep combos and the only uses for them are really on specific setups where you can only afford to fit one low slot tank module. Using ferroscale plates is pointless because they're outperformed by basic plates - why have 0% penalty plates that are really expensive to fit and give only a small bit of HP when you could have a huge chunk of HP for practically no fitting cost for just a 1% penalty? Active armour tanking doesn't work because armour repairers are never going to rep fast enough to actively keep you up in a fight unless you have practically no buffer HP. In that case, you're going to die very quickly before your armour repairers can get to work saving you and even then stacking four complex ones won't get you very far at all - just 25 HP/s. That's not nearly sufficient to keep you up in an active fight. It would be far preferable to have + 300 HP or so and then have a token rep to keep you going between fights. EDIT: % HP bonuses have been thrown around for plates. I'm not a huge fan of that, but Resistance is quite right in talking about proportional weights. Rather than have the plates toned down to match the frame, why not have a mass based penalty? If you're a dainty little scout putting on a bunch of heavy plates, you're going to get weighed down a ton and lose all your speed advantage (and then some, quite possibly). Suddenly, there's a reason for ferroscale plates! Meanwhile heavies don't really feel it,. meaning that they don't get weighed down so much they can't jump over a 1 ft railing. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries 9788	Posted - 2014.05.18 13:23:00 - [62] - Quote My current idea is to reduce plate HP by 1/4th and increase armor reps to 5/7/10. Adjust Ferroscale CPU/PG requirements, and slightly increase HP, as well as increase HP on reactive plates and increase repair rate to 2/3/5. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries 9788	Posted - 2014.05.18 13:25:00 - [63] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Velociraptor, I think you're overreacting slightly. Rattati isn't here suggesting that we all go on about how armour should be nerfed into the ground, how OP it is, etc, this thread is about rejigging the modules so that more armour tanking styles than just stacking basic plates become viable (like active armour repair). My own thoughts are that basic plates are horrendously out of whack. 1 PG 10 CPU for that chunk of HP means that using higher tier plates starts to get silly, especially when the speed penalty on those increases as well. The most economical way of tanking at the moment is simply to stack basic plates. That is a bad thing. I also feel that a lot of complaints about armour come from the state of shields. There are some flaws in shield design at the moment - 22 HP basic extenders, for example, sometimes make zero difference whatsoever to TTK if you fit them. That's not strictly on topic here though, I have another thread up at https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=162638&find=unread for that. Aside from the inherent superiority of stacking normal plates, the lack of use for ferroscales and reactives stems from there not being any reason to use them at all. Reactive plates are simply inferior to plate/rep combos and the only uses for them are really on specific setups where you can only afford to fit one low slot tank module. Using ferroscale plates is pointless because they're outperformed by basic plates - why have 0% penalty plates that are really expensive to fit and give only a small bit of HP when you could have a huge chunk of HP for practically no fitting cost for just a 1% penalty? Active armour tanking doesn't work because armour repairers are never going to rep fast enough to actively keep you up in a fight unless you have practically no buffer HP. In that case, you're going to die very quickly before your armour repairers can get to work saving you and even then stacking four complex ones won't get you very far at all - just 25 HP/s. That's not nearly sufficient to keep you up in an active fight. It would be far preferable to have + 300 HP or so and then have a token rep to keep you going between fights. EDIT: % HP bonuses have been thrown around for plates. I'm not a huge fan of that, but Resistance is quite right in talking about proportional weights. Rather than have the plates toned down to match the frame, why not have a mass based penalty? If you're a dainty little scout putting on a bunch of heavy plates, you're going to get weighed down a ton and lose all your speed advantage (and then some, quite possibly). Suddenly, there's a reason for ferroscale plates! Meanwhile heavies don't really feel it,. meaning that they don't get weighed down so much they can't jump over a 1 ft railing. 450 armor + 40hp/s would make for a very good active armor rep. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13488	Posted - 2014.05.18 13:26:00 - [64] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: 450 armor + 40hp/s would make for a very good active armor rep. And mean that shield tanking is pointless (unless that's on a heavy, which it isn't, because those have more than 450 armour). You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries 9788	Posted - 2014.05.18 13:28:00 - [65] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Cat Merc wrote: 450 armor + 40hp/s would make for a very good active armor rep. And mean that shield tanking is pointless (unless that's on a heavy). Come back to me when shield tankers move as slow as me. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13488	Posted - 2014.05.18 13:31:00 - [66] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Cat Merc wrote: 450 armor + 40hp/s would make for a very good active armor rep. And mean that shield tanking is pointless (unless that's on a heavy). Come back to me when shield tankers move as slow as me. A basic plate will cost you practically no speed whatsoever. An enhanced plate will cost you a marginal bit of speed. A complex plate will cost you a slight bit of speed, and nobody uses them anyway. Armour tankers barely move slower than shield tankers. Barely. You are suggesting a vastly superior tanking form. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries 9788	Posted - 2014.05.18 13:32:00 - [67] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Cat Merc wrote: 450 armor + 40hp/s would make for a very good active armor rep. And mean that shield tanking is pointless (unless that's on a heavy). Come back to me when shield tankers move as slow as me. A basic plate will cost you practically no speed whatsoever. An enhanced plate will cost you a marginal bit of speed. A complex plate will cost you a slight bit of speed, and nobody uses them anyway. Armour tankers barely move slower than shield tankers. Barely. You are suggesting a vastly superior tanking form. Armor tankers usually use more than one plate. That speed penalty stacks. As I said, I just threw numbers around. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13488	Posted - 2014.05.18 13:44:00 - [68] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: [ A basic plate will cost you practically no speed whatsoever. An enhanced plate will cost you a marginal bit of speed. A complex plate will cost you a slight bit of speed, and nobody uses them anyway. Armour tankers barely move slower than shield tankers. Barely. You are suggesting a vastly superior tanking form. Armor tankers usually use more than one plate. That speed penalty stacks. As I said, I just threw numbers around. Yes, stupid numbers. Instead of admitting that, though, you're actually attempting to defend them. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries 9788	Posted - 2014.05.18 14:00:00 - [69] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: [ A basic plate will cost you practically no speed whatsoever. An enhanced plate will cost you a marginal bit of speed. A complex plate will cost you a slight bit of speed, and nobody uses them anyway. Armour tankers barely move slower than shield tankers. Barely. You are suggesting a vastly superior tanking form. Armor tankers usually use more than one plate. That speed penalty stacks. As I said, I just threw numbers around. Yes, stupid numbers. Instead of admitting that, though, you're actually attempting to defend them. I was defending the recharge more than the HP. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13492	Posted - 2014.05.18 14:13:00 - [70] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: I was defending the recharge more than the HP. Which still pretty much invalidates shields as at 40 HP/s there's no reason to use shields. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1229	Posted - 2014.05.18 14:13:00 - [71] - Quote Besides busting down the health gains of plates, while also bumping up the PG requirements (as the Cat said), the usefulness of Ferroscale and Reactive.. There needs to be one. If you drop plate overall health, you have to hit Ferroscale as well. If you take a quarter (the number Cat tossed out) a Complex Plate(before skills) drops from 135 to 101ish. A Complex Ferroscale sits at 75 (before skills), meaning there is very little difference between the two (a CR sees no difference). A slight tweak to Ferro health, plus a major change to the PG costs (14 PG for Proto, more than a Proto Plate by 2 for 60 less health...) and Ferro could become quite handy. Reactives... All they do is save you a Low Slot. I can use a Proto Reactive plate and get +66 armor (with skills) and 2hp/s with a measly 1% speed penalty. Or, if I have the slots, I could put a Basic Plate and Basic Rep, get +93 armor and rep rate of 2.5hp/s. Not only do I get better stats, but, I only use 30CPU and 2 PG, compare that to the 36CPU and 16PG of the Proto Reactive. At least I have the slot for the PG Upgrade? Besides looking at the fitting costs, how would people feel if Reactives required some level of Armor Repair Skill as well? Maybe make that a tier lower than the Plating, so, Basic would require no level, Advanced would require Lvl 1 (or maybe even 2 so that the skill levels can unlock more things, I know CCP loves access skills), and Proto requiring Lvl 3 (again, or 4). I was going to suggest equalizing Ferro and Reactive armor values, but, I realized that would make Ferroscale pretty pointless (1% speed reduction is minimal as is, and adding 2hp/s for the same armor amount would be stupid). Unless you make Ferroscale easier to fit and Reactives more difficult (but not more than they are). Let's drop that idea though. Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Cat Merc wrote: I was defending the recharge more than the HP. Which still pretty much invalidates shields as at 40 HP/s there's no reason to use shields. I think it almost invalidates a Logi as well... I'm trying to imagine a suit with 40hp/s plus a core focused... Pretty beastly. I think I'm over Dust now...
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries 9788	Posted - 2014.05.18 14:17:00 - [72] - Quote ResistanceGTA wrote: Besides busting down the health gains of plates, while also bumping up the PG requirements (as the Cat said), the usefulness of Ferroscale and Reactive.. There needs to be one. If you drop plate overall health, you have to hit Ferroscale as well. If you take a quarter (the number Cat tossed out) a Complex Plate(before skills) drops from 135 to 101ish. A Complex Ferroscale sits at 75 (before skills), meaning there is very little difference between the two (a CR sees no difference). A slight tweak to Ferro health, plus a major change to the PG costs (14 PG for Proto, more than a Proto Plate by 2 for 60 less health...) and Ferro could become quite handy. Reactives... All they do is save you a Low Slot. I can use a Proto Reactive plate and get +66 armor (with skills) and 2hp/s with a measly 1% speed penalty. Or, if I have the slots, I could put a Basic Plate and Basic Rep, get +93 armor and rep rate of 2.5hp/s. Not only do I get better stats, but, I only use 30CPU and 2 PG, compare that to the 36CPU and 16PG of the Proto Reactive. At least I have the slot for the PG Upgrade? Besides looking at the fitting costs, how would people feel if Reactives required some level of Armor Repair Skill as well? Maybe make that a tier lower than the Plating, so, Basic would require no level, Advanced would require Lvl 1 (or maybe even 2 so that the skill levels can unlock more things, I know CCP loves access skills), and Proto requiring Lvl 3 (again, or 4). I was going to suggest equalizing Ferro and Reactive armor values, but, I realized that would make Ferroscale pretty pointless (1% speed reduction is minimal as is, and adding 2hp/s for the same armor amount would be stupid). Unless you make Ferroscale easier to fit and Reactives more difficult (but not more than they are). Let's drop that idea though. Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Cat Merc wrote: I was defending the recharge more than the HP. Which still pretty much invalidates shields as at 40 HP/s there's no reason to use shields. I think it almost invalidates a Logi as well... I'm trying to imagine a suit with 40hp/s plus a core focused... Pretty beastly. Doesn't invalidate any logi. The Gallente battle doctrine laughs at your puny logis. It's the bricked Amarr that use logistics to recharge their armor quickly, Gallente do it by themselves but have lower health pools. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13492	Posted - 2014.05.18 14:24:00 - [73] - Quote ResistanceGTA wrote: Besides busting down the health gains of plates, while also bumping up the PG requirements (as the Cat said), the usefulness of Ferroscale and Reactive.. There needs to be one. If you drop plate overall health, you have to hit Ferroscale as well. If you take a quarter (the number Cat tossed out) a Complex Plate(before skills) drops from 135 to 101ish. A Complex Ferroscale sits at 75 (before skills), meaning there is very little difference between the two (a CR sees no difference). A slight tweak to Ferro health, plus a major change to the PG costs (14 PG for Proto, more than a Proto Plate by 2 for 60 less health...) and Ferro could become quite handy. The thing about reducing ferroscale health is that you end up with ferroscale plates with less health than shield extenders. The comparison between them is then pretty much adding automatically regenerating health vs adding non-regenerating health. When they both have the same values, why would you ferroscale tank? Taking a quarter off armour HP is a huge change. It's bigger than the buff to armour that so drastically changed the meta - and before that, armour was in a laughable state. Quote: Reactives... All they do is save you a Low Slot. I can use a Proto Reactive plate and get +66 armor (with skills) and 2hp/s with a measly 1% speed penalty. Or, if I have the slots, I could put a Basic Plate and Basic Rep, get +93 armor and rep rate of 2.5hp/s. Not only do I get better stats, but, I only use 30CPU and 2 PG, compare that to the 36CPU and 16PG of the Proto Reactive. At least I have the slot for the PG Upgrade? Yes. This. But... I don't actually see why reactive plates need to exist. Regardless of the state they're in, they're going to be in one of three states - better than plate/rep combos, about equal, or worse than them. They directly compete with modules in the same slots for the same function. Their existence is unnecessary. I'd rather see them retooled as something else, like resistance plates. That gives them a useful function that doesn't directly compete with plate/rep combos and adds something new to the table. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 95	Posted - 2014.05.18 14:48:00 - [74] - Quote Personally I am very happy with the suggestion of adjusting armour plates. I believe it will have far reaching benefits to the game if done correctly. A summary of Ideas that I like: Keep plate hp increases the same (at least for medium suits). I know some people have concerns over TTK if this is reduced. Change to a %hp increase, obviously balanced so that med suits get roughly the same benefit as now OR implement varying speed reductions so that scouts are slowed more than mediums and heavies. Add stacking penalties similar to damage mods. Increase basic plate fitting costs. Reduce fitting costs of ferroscale and reactive plates. Buff armour repairers. (be careful if doing this). Improve or reduce fitting costs of non-armour related low slot modules. Increase hp of basic and enhanced shield extenders. Maybe remove repair hives. Would be a shame but would solve a lot of problems. Hopefully this wouldn't be necessary if other suggestions were implemented. I think you could safely implement most of these suggestions together. The goal being to restore shield/armour tanking balance, increase module variety and balance the issue of heavily armour tanked scouts vs mediums. Sorry these are just repeats of other people's ideas, just throwing in my support.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 520	Posted - 2014.05.18 15:09:00 - [75] - Quote In reaction to this thread I hacked some numbers into Matlab to come up with a linear model of relative utility for all armor and shield modules. I've come up with two results. The relative utility of the stats armor HP, armor rep rate, speed bonus, shield HP and shield recharge bonus expressed in terms of the measure "total fitting cost" (TFC), which is CPU cost + 5 * PG. (This ratio is derived from the fact that almost all suits have about 5 times more CPU than they do have PG.) The best linear fit for this model based off the current modules is as follows. One "total fitting cost" currently buys you: 1.05 armor HP or 0.05 armor HP/s or 0.10 % speed bonus or 0.58 shield HP or 0.46 % shield recharge bonus These mean values feel kind of fair in regard to their relative magnitude. Would you pay 38 CPU and 2 PG (38+25 = 48 TFC) for 50 armor HP at no speed penalty? Or rather spend 50 CPU and 6 PG (80 TFC) for 50 shield HP? Would a std kincat be worth 15 CPU and 7 PG worth you? (50 TFC) Using these weights as a basis I asked Matlab to show me which modules deviated the worst from the current balance. Here's the list of relative utility of each module. 0 means (comparatively) balanced, negative numbers mean (relatively) underpowered, positive numbers indicate a very good bang/buck ratio. Matlab wrote:* STD Armor Plate: 46.311615 ENH Armor Plate: 25.379241 STD Armor Repairer: 16.569617 STD Reactive Plate: 14.482212 CPX Kinetic Catalyser: 13.557344 STD Ferroscale Plate: 8.176365 STD Shield Extender: 4.469270 CPX Armor Repairer: 3.924042 CPX Shield Extender: 3.407810 STD Shield Recharger: 2.880570 ENH Armor Repairer: 2.354425 CPX Shield Recharger: 2.065597 ENH Kinetic Catalyser: -0.961771 ENH Shield Recharger: -5.199050 ENH Shield Extender: -9.796095 CPX Armor Plate: -10.182913 ENH Ferroscale Plate: -14.605192 STD Kinetic Catalyser: -16.851107 ENH Reactive Plate: -19.929124 CPX Reactive Plate: -27.186393 CPX Ferroscale Plate: -37.907789 As expected, complex ferroscale and reactive plates come up at the lower end of the scale. Don't fit these, they are mathematically not worth it. As expected, STD and enhanced armor plates are at the top of the board. If you fit these, you'll do better. Technically minded readers may hit me up for a Matlab script to analyse my method. But be aware, I don't document well when I spend 30 minutes on a thought experiment.
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 63	Posted - 2014.05.18 15:16:00 - [76] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Velociraptor, I think you're overreacting slightly. Rattati isn't here suggesting that we all go on about how armour should be nerfed into the ground, how OP it is, etc, this thread is about rejigging the modules so that more armour tanking styles than just stacking basic plates become viable (like active armour repair). I know. I should really read text walls before reacting to them and writing my own text walls. Anyway, I'll get back to this thread later. GûéGûäGûà /Gûî /Gûî /Gûî Gûî GûêGûêGûàGûâGûé IGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê] GùÑGèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGùñn++
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1055	Posted - 2014.05.18 16:22:00 - [77] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We need a lively discussion on this one. Status update (yes I know you know) Plates are being used to stack EHP in over abundance. There is little drawback to that strategy and the other options are not competitive/viable. This is having a big effect on the landscape, both brick tanked scouts and heavies, making scramblers/flux weapons out of place. I would like to hear ideas on how to remedy that. For insight, these are the armor modules ordered by consumption 1. Plates 2. Repair 3. Reactive 4. Ferroscale out of the three plates, normal plates are 85& prevalent and the other two split the difference. How to make them viable, and also a bonus question, can "active" armor tanking be viable without being OP. My GA sentinel with 4 pro reps is not competitive, fun, but not competitive. Discuss. Oddly enough having a value boosted HP module that has a percentage based speed modifier makes it MORE effective on lighter suits, rather than less effective. Using armor modules, you can increase the effective HP of light suits by well over 200%, while you can only increase the HP of the heavy suits by ~50%. Due to the percentage speed modifier though, you decrease speed in equal ratios. In other words, the scout gains much more relatively than the heavier suits (mediums and heavies) do. This drastically increases the utility of HP increasing mods on lighter suits. If HP modules were also percentage based (with stacking penalties of course) the marginal utility of HP mods would actually decrease on the smaller suits, solving the problem of "brick-tanked-scouts". Also, active armor tanking is also based entirely on static figures, this too means that having low values decreases the value while having large static values will make them overpowered. Once again a stacking penalized percentage based solution (wiht possible suit bonuses) could make active tanking a possiblity without being an overpowered one. TLDR: absolutel value increases make it hard to balance across suit types, while percentage based values allow suits to maintain their intended identity without marginalizing other suit classes. Fixing swarms
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 775	Posted - 2014.05.18 16:27:00 - [78] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: TLDR: absolutel value increases make it hard to balance across suit types, while percentage based values allow suits to maintain their intended identity without marginalizing other suit classes. Seems to me percentage-based plates would make Heavies ridiculously overpowered. Would proponents please address / explain? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1055	Posted - 2014.05.18 16:37:00 - [79] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: TLDR: absolutel value increases make it hard to balance across suit types, while percentage based values allow suits to maintain their intended identity without marginalizing other suit classes. Seems to me percentage-based plates would make Heavies ridiculously overpowered. Would proponents please address / explain? Well, It depends on the values that you use. If you were to make them +20% at prototype, this means that with 4 of them equipped you end up with a ~ 54% armor HP increase, regardless of the suit. This means that your Prototype gallente sentinel tops out at less eHP than it can currently have (not by much though) and the same speed penalty. In effect this makes suit base armor HP very important when tanking, which actually makes a lot of sense. Fixing swarms
Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 95	Posted - 2014.05.18 16:57:00 - [80] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: TLDR: absolutel value increases make it hard to balance across suit types, while percentage based values allow suits to maintain their intended identity without marginalizing other suit classes. Seems to me percentage-based plates would make Heavies ridiculously overpowered. Would proponents please address / explain? You would have to reduce heavy suit's base hp to make it work. Maybe speed reduction % scaling with suit size would be better, I don't know. I think stacking penalties are an important consideration. Things are much easier to balance when you talk about 2 plates rather than 4.

lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion Zero-Day 219	Posted - 2014.05.18 18:02:00 - [81] - Quote Look...the reason why people use basic armor plates is because they are good, they have a negative but once you get used to it, it is no longer so bad, the problem though is for the enhanced and complex is, they are to expensive for what you get from them. The same is true of the feeroscale and the reactive, they don't provide enough bang for the buck so to speak, they cost a lot isk wise and pg/cpu wise, the pg/cpu use is also quite high upon just armor plating, I mean honestly how much cpu power does it take to put a slab of metal onto something, that would be like saying we need a super computer to wear flak vests or body armor in real life, which is just silly. For shields, yeah they do need to be better, they also used to be to damn good at once point, for the shields give them a few extra points and reduce the debuff they have on them slightly, this will have a drastic effect on how shields work and how powerful they are, they do not need major changes. If you change the armor to much or the shields to much bad things will happen, especially when you are messing with the basics of each class, which more then 75% use because isk wise it is the only thing that is affordable. If you were to make it so that everyone had to be using advanced fittings, I would demand that you raise isk payouts per match by 15-35%, otherwise I would just quit the game until legion. Because I am not going to spend significant isk, just to get rolled over by a tank that is literally of less cost then my suit would be. People who are playing pub matches are generally poor, and they need good basic gear, people who play PC are rich as heck and have millions if not billions.
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 195	Posted - 2014.05.18 18:16:00 - [82] - Quote A mash-up of my favourite ideas results in this solution... (Note: Maths are only for illustration purposes.) ARMOUR: - nerf regular plates slighty - increase CPU/PG fitting costs of standard plates - make stacking penalties slightly more significant but only apply to armour of the same type - include movement penalties and rotation penalties - leave regular plates as 'high alpha' option - combine ferroscale and reactive plates into one 'high regen' type - buff armour repair mods - reduce Gallente passive armour repair to 1 hp/s per level Alpha Plate example: - Hit Points: 75 std, 100 adv, 125 pro - Movement: -2% std, -4% adv, -6% pro - Rotation: -2% std, -4% adv, -6% pro - Regen: -0%/s std, -0%/s adv, -0%/s pro - Stacking: -10% HP and -20% Mov/Rot each additional Alpha Plate Regen Plate example: - Hit Points: 40 std, 60 adv, 80 pro - Movement: -1% std, -2% adv, -3% pro - Rotation: -0% std, -1% adv, -2% pro - Regen: +1%/s std, +2%/s adv, +3%/s pro - Stacking: -10% HP, -10% Mov/Rot and -10% Regen each additional Regen Plate SHIELDS: - add 'high alpha' shield option - leave/modify original shields as 'high regen' option - decrease CPU/PG fitting costs of complex shields - make stacking penalties only apply to shields of the same type - introduce hybrid armour/shield Rep Tools, Nanite Injectors and Nanohives Alpha Shield example: - Hit Points: 60 std, 80 adv, 100 pro - Delay: 6 sec std, 8 sec adv, 10 sec pro - Regen: 2%/s std, 3%/s adv, 4%/s pro - Stacking: -10% HP and -20% Delay each additional Alpha Shield Regen Shield example: - Hit Points: 20 std, 40 adv, 60 pro - Delay: 3 sec std, 4 sec adv, 5 sec pro - Regen: 4%/s std, 5%/s adv, 6%/s pro - Stacking: -10% HP and -20% Delay each additional Regen Shield Duct tape 2.0 > Have WD-40; will travel.
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1515	Posted - 2014.05.18 18:36:00 - [83] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: A mash-up of my favourite ideas results in this solution... (Note: Maths are only for illustration purposes.) ARMOUR: - nerf regular plates slighty - increase CPU/PG fitting costs of standard plates - make stacking penalties slightly more significant but only apply to armour of the same type - include movement penalties and rotation penalties - leave regular plates as 'high alpha' option - combine ferroscale and reactive plates into one 'high regen' type - buff armour repair mods - reduce Gallente passive armour repair to 1 hp/s per level Alpha Plate example: - Hit Points: 75 std, 100 adv, 125 pro - Movement: -2% std, -4% adv, -6% pro - Rotation: -2% std, -4% adv, -6% pro - Regen: -0%/s std, -0%/s adv, -0%/s pro - Stacking: -10% HP and -20% Mov/Rot each additional Alpha Plate Regen Plate example: - Hit Points: 40 std, 60 adv, 80 pro - Movement: -1% std, -2% adv, -3% pro - Rotation: -0% std, -1% adv, -2% pro - Regen: +1%/s std, +2%/s adv, +3%/s pro - Stacking: -10% HP, -10% Mov/Rot and -10% Regen each additional Regen Plate SHIELDS: - add 'high alpha' shield option - leave/modify original shields as 'high regen' option - decrease CPU/PG fitting costs of complex shields - make stacking penalties only apply to shields of the same type - introduce hybrid armour/shield Rep Tools, Nanite Injectors and Nanohives Alpha Shield example: - Hit Points: 60 std, 80 adv, 100 pro - Delay: 6 sec std, 8 sec adv, 10 sec pro - Regen: 2%/s std, 3%/s adv, 4%/s pro - Stacking: -10% HP and -20% Delay each additional Alpha Shield Regen Shield example: - Hit Points: 20 std, 40 adv, 60 pro - Delay: 3 sec std, 4 sec adv, 5 sec pro - Regen: 4%/s std, 5%/s adv, 6%/s pro - Stacking: -10% HP and -20% Delay each additional Regen Shield Shields need much shorter delays not longer... Closed beta vet.
Eko Sol Strange Playings 326	Posted - 2014.05.18 19:46:00 - [84] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We need a lively discussion on this one. Status update (yes I know you know) Plates are being used to stack EHP in over abundance. There is little drawback to that strategy and the other options are not competitive/viable. This is having a big effect on the landscape, both brick tanked scouts and heavies, making scramblers/flux weapons out of place. I would like to hear ideas on how to remedy that. For insight, these are the armor modules ordered by consumption 1. Plates 2. Repair 3. Reactive 4. Ferroscale out of the three plates, normal plates are 85& prevalent and the other two split the difference. How to make them viable, and also a bonus question, can "active" armor tanking be viable without being OP. My GA sentinel with 4 pro reps is not competitive, fun, but not competitive. Discuss. If this is too be fixed for any reason although I BARELY think it's as serious a problem as a couple of other things like BUGS then maybe it should auto scale to the suit. For example, Light suits should have a 10% hit to all plates, medium suits should have a 5% hit, and heavies should be even. So right when it is equipped it will recieve this handicap. No additional plate types, nothing crazy. Just a hit. I run a 1500 HP heavy with a complex armor rep. If I don't have reps I'm hosed. I also run scout and take out logis fairly often to leave the heavy vulnerable. I don't think brick tanking is a serious issue. There are times where it frustrates me but then I think "maybe my 500hp or less scout shouldn't have gone against that 900 hp logi in the first place. I could have avoided that". Personally, I'm sick of people thinking they should be able to fight everyone, every-time and have a chance of winning. PSN is "Ekopalm" I play D3, Child of Light, and solo games Also, Proto Trolling until I'm broke...
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1516	Posted - 2014.05.18 21:42:00 - [85] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We need a lively discussion on this one. Status update (yes I know you know) Plates are being used to stack EHP in over abundance. There is little drawback to that strategy and the other options are not competitive/viable. This is having a big effect on the landscape, both brick tanked scouts and heavies, making scramblers/flux weapons out of place. I would like to hear ideas on how to remedy that. For insight, these are the armor modules ordered by consumption 1. Plates 2. Repair 3. Reactive 4. Ferroscale out of the three plates, normal plates are 85& prevalent and the other two split the difference. How to make them viable, and also a bonus question, can "active" armor tanking be viable without being OP. My GA sentinel with 4 pro reps is not competitive, fun, but not competitive. Discuss. If this is too be fixed for any reason although I BARELY think it's as serious a problem as a couple of other things like BUGS then maybe it should auto scale to the suit. For example, Light suits should have a 10% hit to all plates, medium suits should have a 5% hit, and heavies should be even. So right when it is equipped it will recieve this handicap. No additional plate types, nothing crazy. Just a hit. I run a 1500 HP heavy with a complex armor rep. If I don't have reps I'm hosed. I also run scout and take out logis fairly often to leave the heavy vulnerable. I don't think brick tanking is a serious issue. There are times where it frustrates me but then I think "maybe my 500hp or less scout shouldn't have gone against that 900 hp logi in the first place. I could have avoided that". Personally, I'm sick of people thinking they should be able to fight everyone, every-time and have a chance of winning. That last part GTFO NOW This is like Because im using this gear I get to be super overpowered and never lose to this one thing or two. That's overpowered. Closed beta vet.
Eko Sol Strange Playings 326	Posted - 2014.05.18 21:46:00 - [86] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Eko Sol wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We need a lively discussion on this one. Status update (yes I know you know) Plates are being used to stack EHP in over abundance. There is little drawback to that strategy and the other options are not competitive/viable. This is having a big effect on the landscape, both brick tanked scouts and heavies, making scramblers/flux weapons out of place. I would like to hear ideas on how to remedy that. For insight, these are the armor modules ordered by consumption 1. Plates 2. Repair 3. Reactive 4. Ferroscale out of the three plates, normal plates are 85& prevalent and the other two split the difference. How to make them viable, and also a bonus question, can "active" armor tanking be viable without being OP. My GA sentinel with 4 pro reps is not competitive, fun, but not competitive. Discuss. If this is too be fixed for any reason although I BARELY think it's as serious a problem as a couple of other things like BUGS then maybe it should auto scale to the suit. For example, Light suits should have a 10% hit to all plates, medium suits should have a 5% hit, and heavies should be even. So right when it is equipped it will recieve this handicap. No additional plate types, nothing crazy. Just a hit. I run a 1500 HP heavy with a complex armor rep. If I don't have reps I'm hosed. I also run scout and take out logis fairly often to leave the heavy vulnerable. I don't think brick tanking is a serious issue. There are times where it frustrates me but then I think "maybe my 500hp or less scout shouldn't have gone against that 900 hp logi in the first place. I could have avoided that". Personally, I'm sick of people thinking they should be able to fight everyone, every-time and have a chance of winning. That last part GTFO NOW This is like Because im using this gear I get to be super overpowered and never lose to this one thing or two. That's overpowered. Basically what you are saying is, when you loose to a heavy it's because the game is bad and not because you were bad or made a poor decision to fight the heavy. Gotcha. I get it now. Yeah, everybody I can't beat everytime is OP. Thanks for enlightening me. PSN is "Ekopalm" I play D3, Child of Light, and solo games Also, Proto Trolling until I'm broke...
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1516	Posted - 2014.05.18 22:35:00 - [87] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Eko Sol wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We need a lively discussion on this one. Status update (yes I know you know) Plates are being used to stack EHP in over abundance. There is little drawback to that strategy and the other options are not competitive/viable. This is having a big effect on the landscape, both brick tanked scouts and heavies, making scramblers/flux weapons out of place. I would like to hear ideas on how to remedy that. For insight, these are the armor modules ordered by consumption 1. Plates 2. Repair 3. Reactive 4. Ferroscale out of the three plates, normal plates are 85& prevalent and the other two split the difference. How to make them viable, and also a bonus question, can "active" armor tanking be viable without being OP. My GA sentinel with 4 pro reps is not competitive, fun, but not competitive. Discuss. If this is too be fixed for any reason although I BARELY think it's as serious a problem as a couple of other things like BUGS then maybe it should auto scale to the suit. For example, Light suits should have a 10% hit to all plates, medium suits should have a 5% hit, and heavies should be even. So right when it is equipped it will recieve this handicap. No additional plate types, nothing crazy. Just a hit. I run a 1500 HP heavy with a complex armor rep. If I don't have reps I'm hosed. I also run scout and take out logis fairly often to leave the heavy vulnerable. I don't think brick tanking is a serious issue. There are times where it frustrates me but then I think "maybe my 500hp or less scout shouldn't have gone against that 900 hp logi in the first place. I could have avoided that". Personally, I'm sick of people thinking they should be able to fight everyone, every-time and have a chance of winning. That last part GTFO NOW This is like Because im using this gear I get to be super overpowered and never lose to this one thing or two. That's overpowered. Basically what you are saying is, when you loose to a heavy it's because the game is bad and not because you were bad or made a poor decision to fight the heavy. Gotcha. I get it now. Yeah, everybody I can't beat everytime is OP. Thanks for enlightening me. When somebody doesn't have a chance of winning because of gear it's overpowered. Closed beta vet.
Xatha De'Agelle Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3	Posted - 2014.05.19 05:53:00 - [88] - Quote (This may ramble a bit, extremely tired but have ideas I have to post while i have them.) Repairer: A big issue I have observed over time has been the attempt to have parity between shield tank vs armor tank and shield regen with armor repair. In Eve shields regenerate constantly over time every moment, even under fire. Here that is the role of Armor tank, but extremely low in return. The issue is that there are two systems that were in effect resource oriented in Eve and now they are not because they do not hinge on capacitor. There is no way to increase armor or shields besides having the extenders or plates. There needs to be more flexibility in the approach of armor or repair besides each ones absolute value in either rate of repair or quantity of armor as the only comparable form. Armor repair becomes OP when it is infinitely sustaining armor capacity without depletion faster than the wearer can be defeated between fights(Becomes like shields with a larger threshold before death). Armor plates are OP when they exceed the relative value of Effective HP vs shields lower quantity(first one to have eHP depleted dies.) The system that exists in eve could be adopted here in Dust. Shields could regen constantly. Armor then does not. Armor reppers could be equipped in low slots that have an active equipment toggle to give a spike of repair feeding off of Suit Endurance leaving room for Plates and not having reppers be psuedo shield regen. Shields could ALWAYS be actively regenerating regardless of damage being taken and receive no changes besides that. In Eve there are hardeners to increase resistance to different types of damage. Let us have hardeners so that the shape of the combat we encounter can be arranged by what weapons we're seeing used against us most often. Have hardeners passive normally and be able to be toggled on and linked to endurance for greater effect. Hardeners change the shape of our decisions between having shield repairers or more tank in consideration to the types of engagements we will encounter. Heavy suits would favor passive hardeners to have Logistical repairers hold them up easier regardless of that logi's skill in repair and an assault might take repairers with passive hardeners to keep pushing expecting to move faster than a logi would keep up, but needing to be tougher and not as heavy due to plates. (Endurance: Link our rate of fire to endurance so that each shot consumes endurance. Amarr scrambler and laser overheat hits endurance and health for example, but their shots themselves don't take endurance otherwise. Give our choices more weight in offense and mobility decisions, tie that into how we use equipment.) Plates: Reduce the number of low and high slots available to Light suits and increase the number available to Heavy suits. Be willing to break from the 2/4 or 4/2 pattern between races and give some 1/6 or 6/1 or even 6/3 and 3/6 in a role oriented fashion as heavies don't even have an equipment slot, so give them flexibility elsewhere. Trying to patch these issues may not be as simple as a basic change. Some of the problems are intrinsically related to the lack of diversity and too much effort to balance equal numbers of high and low slots in a system that isn't proportionally balanced anyway. Heavies will be able to equip a lot of plates to get armor, lights will not. Heavies will also gain more Profile dampener and Precision ability, but they are so disproportionate in their given profile/precision already it does not appear to be a problem to let them have that avenue. Give Lights more CPU and heavies more PG and aspect each racial suit to equip certain weapons with reduced PG/CPU ontop of skill reductions to favor their expected fittings. (Ex: give Amarr reduced fitting costs on laser weaponry, Gallente on Plasma) You have fitting costs of CPU and PG to weight these decisions. More smoothly address the Basic, Advance, Proto bonuses and fitting costs so that a heavy might try to fit as many excellent armor plate modules into their 6 low slots, but expectantly have more trouble with other areas because of it.
Leeroy Gannarsein Legio DXIV 175	Posted - 2014.05.19 07:56:00 - [89] - Quote If reactives giving a resistance bonus is impossible to do or undesirable for whatever reason, what about making them a percentage bonus? That way we can have the best of both worlds; scouts that can EHP tank a reasonable amount with a logical speed penalty, and mediums that aren't incredibly tanky or incredibly squishy. (This would entail nerfing of traditional plates, of course) jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: When somebody doesn't have a chance of winning because of gear it's overpowered. Yeah, I hate it when my 250 EHP STD MD scout can't 1v1 a 2kEHP HMG proto GalSent in a corridor at fifteen metres. MY ACTUAL NAME IS LORHAK It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
Ground Zero420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1	Posted - 2014.05.19 10:02:00 - [90] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We need a lively discussion on this one. Status update (yes I know you know) Plates are being used to stack EHP in over abundance. There is little drawback to that strategy and the other options are not competitive/viable. This is having a big effect on the landscape, both brick tanked scouts and heavies, making scramblers/flux weapons out of place. I would like to hear ideas on how to remedy that. For insight, these are the armor modules ordered by consumption 1. Plates 2. Repair 3. Reactive 4. Ferroscale out of the three plates, normal plates are 85& prevalent and the other two split the difference. How to make them viable, and also a bonus question, can "active" armor tanking be viable without being OP. My GA sentinel with 4 pro reps is not competitive, fun, but not competitive. Discuss. possibly could combine reactive plates and ferro into one. Such as keeping the movement penalty/hp of the ferro, and adding the rep of the reactive plate, or increasing the efficiency of the reactive plates/ferro plates in general. and maybe people will stop stacking normal plates. But as it stands now, there is absolutely no reason why anyone would waste a slot with a reactive plate. Complex ferro plates are kind of ridiculous to fit, for their hp, so it's easier to just take the speed penalty of the plates, for the extra pg/cpu. Spartan mk420

Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2800	Posted - 2014.05.19 11:33:00 - [91] - Quote I would love to see some buff to armor rep tanking on my blaster commando. It really fits the commando glass cannon well. This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Juno Tristan Inner.Hell 15	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:21:00 - [92] - Quote Currently there is only 1 type of armour repairer, I would like to see a variant that has a lower standard rate of repair but doubles this rate when armour is below a certain threshold i.e. 50%. This might make the 'GA sentinel with 4 pro reps' a bit more viable
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries 9804	Posted - 2014.05.19 13:02:00 - [93] - Quote If you make plates reduce rotation speed I will bite you Rattati. Gallente = CQC fighter CQC Fighter + Slow rotation speed = Fail Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13511	Posted - 2014.05.19 13:18:00 - [94] - Quote Rotation speed is a terrible mechanic to balance around. It just makes people turn sensitivity up or change their mouse settings. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender Galactic Skyfleet Empire 84	Posted - 2014.05.19 16:29:00 - [95] - Quote Not sure if this has been mentioned, but these are my numbers I feel like providing that were from another thread regarding brick tanked scouts. Thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2168014#post2168014 One Eyed King wrote: "Taking away the dampening doesn't fix the problem. It will only force Minmatar scouts to go Gallente so they can dampen their profile enough. It is the tanking that is the problem that needs fixing, not the dampening of the cloak." Me: A suggestion in another thread was to make armour plating (and potentially shield extenders) percentage based. An example of this would be the following: Let's say that complex armour plates offer 80% more armour to your suit, instead of a fixed 148.5 HP (1351.1) Single Plate Values:* -- Gallente Scout has 130 armour HP by default. , which equates to 234 armour -- Gallente Logi has 180 armour HP by default, which equates to 324 armour -- Gallente Assault has 210 armour HP by default. which equates to 378 armour -- Gellente Sentinel has 525 armour HP by default, which equates to 945 armour Proto Suit Values When Fully Stacked: -- Gallente Scout > 546 armour, +25% of the default armour HP from the Armour Skill (32.5), 578.5 maximum armour HP -- Gallente Logi > 900 armour, +25% of the default armour HP from the Armour Skill (45), 945 maximum armour HP -- Gallente Assault > 882 armour, +25% of the default armour HP from the Armour Skill (52.5), 934.5 maximum armour HP -- Gallente Sentinel > 2,025 armour, +25% of the default armour HP form the Armour Skill (131.25), 2,156.25 armour HP ... it may be wise to introduce a stacking penalty Estimated Penalty Values: -- 1st plate: 80%, 2nd plate: 70%, 3rd plate: 55%, 4th plate: 25%, 5th plate: 8% Armour HP Values When Using the Above Penalty With Fully Stacked Proto Suits: -- Gallente Scout > 1st plate: 104 HP, 2nd plate: 91 HP, 3rd plate: 71.5 HP, 4th plate: 32.5 HP Total HP: 429, +Armour Skill, 461.5 maximum armour HP. -- Gallente Logi > 1st plate: 144 HP, 2nd plate: 126 HP, 3rd plate: 99 HP, 4th plate: 45 HP, 5th plate: 14.4 HP Total HP: 608.4, +Armour Skill, 653.4 maximum armour HP -- Gallente Assault > 1st plate: 168 HP, 2nd plate: 147 HP, 3rd plate: 115.5 HP, 4th plate: 52.5 HP Total HP: 547, +Armour Skill, 599.5 maximum armour HP -- Gallente Sentinel > 1st plate: 420 HP, 2nd plate: 367.5 HP, 3rd plate: 288.75 HP, 131.25 HP Total HP: 1,732.5, +Armour Skill, 1,863.75 maximum armour HP Not too sure how I feel about this... that Gallente Sentinal Perhaps it would work without the stacking penalties, and just reduced the default Gellente Sentinal's armour HP, which is 525, to about 400 HP.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries 9813	Posted - 2014.05.19 19:14:00 - [96] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: Not sure if this has been mentioned, but these are my numbers I feel like providing that were from another thread regarding brick tanked scouts. Thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2168014#post2168014 One Eyed King wrote: "Taking away the dampening doesn't fix the problem. It will only force Minmatar scouts to go Gallente so they can dampen their profile enough. It is the tanking that is the problem that needs fixing, not the dampening of the cloak." Me: A suggestion in another thread was to make armour plating (and potentially shield extenders) percentage based. An example of this would be the following: Let's say that complex armour plates offer 80% more armour to your suit, instead of a fixed 148.5 HP (1351.1) Single Plate Values:* -- Gallente Scout has 130 armour HP by default. , which equates to 234 armour -- Gallente Logi has 180 armour HP by default, which equates to 324 armour -- Gallente Assault has 210 armour HP by default. which equates to 378 armour -- Gellente Sentinel has 525 armour HP by default, which equates to 945 armour Proto Suit Values When Fully Stacked: -- Gallente Scout > 546 armour, +25% of the default armour HP from the Armour Skill (32.5), 578.5 maximum armour HP -- Gallente Logi > 900 armour, +25% of the default armour HP from the Armour Skill (45), 945 maximum armour HP -- Gallente Assault > 882 armour, +25% of the default armour HP from the Armour Skill (52.5), 934.5 maximum armour HP -- Gallente Sentinel > 2,025 armour, +25% of the default armour HP form the Armour Skill (131.25), 2,156.25 armour HP ... it may be wise to introduce a stacking penalty Estimated Penalty Values: -- 1st plate: 80%, 2nd plate: 70%, 3rd plate: 55%, 4th plate: 25%, 5th plate: 8% Armour HP Values When Using the Above Penalty With Fully Stacked Proto Suits: -- Gallente Scout > 1st plate: 104 HP, 2nd plate: 91 HP, 3rd plate: 71.5 HP, 4th plate: 32.5 HP Total HP: 429, +Armour Skill, 461.5 maximum armour HP. -- Gallente Logi > 1st plate: 144 HP, 2nd plate: 126 HP, 3rd plate: 99 HP, 4th plate: 45 HP, 5th plate: 14.4 HP Total HP: 608.4, +Armour Skill, 653.4 maximum armour HP -- Gallente Assault > 1st plate: 168 HP, 2nd plate: 147 HP, 3rd plate: 115.5 HP, 4th plate: 52.5 HP Total HP: 547, +Armour Skill, 599.5 maximum armour HP -- Gallente Sentinel > 1st plate: 420 HP, 2nd plate: 367.5 HP, 3rd plate: 288.75 HP, 131.25 HP Total HP: 1,732.5, +Armour Skill, 1,863.75 maximum armour HP Not too sure how I feel about this... that Gallente Sentinal Perhaps it would work without the stacking penalties, and just reduced the default Gellente Sentinal's armour HP, which is 525, to about 400 HP. I'm not sure what the hell you're doing, but the max HP that a Gallente sentinel with max skills can have is 1800. Check your math. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender Galactic Skyfleet Empire 84	Posted - 2014.05.19 21:06:00 - [97] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: Not sure if this has been mentioned, but these are my numbers I feel like providing that were from another thread regarding brick tanked scouts. Thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2168014#post2168014 One Eyed King wrote: "Taking away the dampening doesn't fix the problem. It will only force Minmatar scouts to go Gallente so they can dampen their profile enough. It is the tanking that is the problem that needs fixing, not the dampening of the cloak." Me: A suggestion in another thread was to make armour plating (and potentially shield extenders) percentage based. An example of this would be the following: Let's say that complex armour plates offer 80% more armour to your suit, instead of a fixed 148.5 HP (1351.1) Single Plate Values:* -- Gallente Scout has 130 armour HP by default. , which equates to 234 armour -- Gallente Logi has 180 armour HP by default, which equates to 324 armour -- Gallente Assault has 210 armour HP by default. which equates to 378 armour -- Gellente Sentinel has 525 armour HP by default, which equates to 945 armour Proto Suit Values When Fully Stacked: -- Gallente Scout > 546 armour, +25% of the default armour HP from the Armour Skill (32.5), 578.5 maximum armour HP -- Gallente Logi > 900 armour, +25% of the default armour HP from the Armour Skill (45), 945 maximum armour HP -- Gallente Assault > 882 armour, +25% of the default armour HP from the Armour Skill (52.5), 934.5 maximum armour HP -- Gallente Sentinel > 2,025 armour, +25% of the default armour HP form the Armour Skill (131.25), 2,156.25 armour HP ... it may be wise to introduce a stacking penalty Estimated Penalty Values: -- 1st plate: 80%, 2nd plate: 70%, 3rd plate: 55%, 4th plate: 25%, 5th plate: 8% Armour HP Values When Using the Above Penalty With Fully Stacked Proto Suits: -- Gallente Scout > 1st plate: 104 HP, 2nd plate: 91 HP, 3rd plate: 71.5 HP, 4th plate: 32.5 HP Total HP: 429, +Armour Skill, 461.5 maximum armour HP. -- Gallente Logi > 1st plate: 144 HP, 2nd plate: 126 HP, 3rd plate: 99 HP, 4th plate: 45 HP, 5th plate: 14.4 HP Total HP: 608.4, +Armour Skill, 653.4 maximum armour HP -- Gallente Assault > 1st plate: 168 HP, 2nd plate: 147 HP, 3rd plate: 115.5 HP, 4th plate: 52.5 HP Total HP: 547, +Armour Skill, 599.5 maximum armour HP -- Gallente Sentinel > 1st plate: 420 HP, 2nd plate: 367.5 HP, 3rd plate: 288.75 HP, 131.25 HP Total HP: 1,732.5, +Armour Skill, 1,863.75 maximum armour HP Not too sure how I feel about this... that Gallente Sentinal Perhaps it would work without the stacking penalties, and just reduced the default Gellente Sentinal's armour HP, which is 525, to about 400 HP. I'm not sure what the hell you're doing, but the max HP that a Gallente sentinel with max skills can have is 1800. Check your math. You missed the part when I said "Let's say that complex armour plates offer 80% more armour to your suit, instead of a fixed 148.5 HP (135*1.1)" I'm well aware that current stats will only allow an approximate 1800 HP, including armour and shields. What I have suggested, with the complaint of brick tanked scouts and balancing, is my 2 cents of fixing it, as long as the Gallente (and probably Amarr) Sentinel have their armour stat reduced slightly. Just a small amount of around 70 armour HP.
Emo Skellington The Neutral Zone 66	Posted - 2014.05.20 00:28:00 - [98] - Quote Well let me say this. Reactive armour plates- are definitley on the low end of the totem pole of usage. I use them on my scouts and thats just for armour reps when in tight situation but they are amazingly handy but i wish they had a higher set armour Basic-40 ADV-55 PRT- 70 Ferroscales are actually really great for scouting but their CPU and PG reqs are too high to run them like we want. Repairs only need something along the lines of a higher % bonus on the armour repair skill to make them even better although they dont do as much as sheild regens period Sheilds actually need some buff..... either buff or some higher extensions. (Caldari are great but need an extension on sheilds. BONUS!! sheild bonus for sheilds on assault, scout and logi's) Actually please increase the base amount on sheild extenders Basic- 30 ADV- 40 PRT- 70 And a small 1% per level bonus to sheilds in caldari suits Supporter of Legion Supporter of Valkyrie Supporter/Fan of Eve
Eko Sol Strange Playings 328	Posted - 2014.05.20 01:15:00 - [99] - Quote someone mentioned % bonus instead of fixed amount bonus. That is the best idea anyone has had about armor plates and shield extenders EVER. That's exactly what they should do. PSN is "Ekopalm" I play D3, Child of Light, and solo games Also, Proto Trolling until I'm broke...
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender Galactic Skyfleet Empire 84	Posted - 2014.05.20 01:44:00 - [100] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: someone mentioned % bonus instead of fixed amount bonus. That is the best idea anyone has had about armor plates and shield extenders EVER. That's exactly what they should do. I don't remember where I saw it (probably the same place you did), but I hope my post provides a good example as to how well this can work.

Eko Sol Strange Playings 333	Posted - 2014.05.20 02:22:00 - [101] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: Eko Sol wrote: someone mentioned % bonus instead of fixed amount bonus. That is the best idea anyone has had about armor plates and shield extenders EVER. That's exactly what they should do. I don't remember where I saw it (probably the same place you did), but I hope my post provides a good example as to how well this can work. And what's funny is it can be used for all to include reactive but keep the reps fixed. I'd prefer if it was Basic - 1hp/s, Advanced - 1.5hp/s, Proto - 2 hp/s. Anyway, I think this is what should be done. You have a point and so does anyone else supporting this. This is the single greatest Idea to have ever been put on the forums...period. This should be done. CCP really needs to consider this. PSN is "Ekopalm" I play D3, Child of Light, and solo games Also, Proto Trolling until I'm broke...
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 683	Posted - 2014.05.20 05:54:00 - [102] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We need a lively discussion on this one. Status update (yes I know you know) Plates are being used to stack EHP in over abundance. There is little drawback to that strategy and the other options are not competitive/viable. This is having a big effect on the landscape, both brick tanked scouts and heavies, making scramblers/flux weapons out of place. I would like to hear ideas on how to remedy that. For insight, these are the armor modules ordered by consumption 1. Plates 2. Repair 3. Reactive 4. Ferroscale out of the three plates, normal plates are 85& prevalent and the other two split the difference. How to make them viable, and also a bonus question, can "active" armor tanking be viable without being OP. My GA sentinel with 4 pro reps is not competitive, fun, but not competitive. Discuss. Amarr suits are supposed to brick tanking Armor. Actually Gallente do it way better WITH a regen, do you have plan to balance Amarr vs Gallente Tanking style ?
Tesfa Alem ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 126	Posted - 2014.05.20 08:06:00 - [103] - Quote Its the high fitting cost of complex reactive and ferroscale plates. Why would i bother struggling to fix a complex reactive plate for so little gain in HP or armor regen when i can put an enhanced one on and a repper? Thats pretty much it. You can't just think of plates in just gallente terms, especially in armor based suits which by ther very nature are difficult for scramblers and flux weapons. Also, yes heavies should brick tank because they're huge slow moving targets. Scouts probably shouldn't, but even then its not scouts that are merely bricktanking that seem to cause so many problems. Its the shooting while cloaked ability they have that make scouts so rage inducing. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender Galactic Skyfleet Empire 85	Posted - 2014.05.20 14:19:00 - [104] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Its the high fitting cost of complex reactive and ferroscale plates. Why would i bother struggling to fix a complex reactive plate for so little gain in HP or armor regen when i can put an enhanced one on and a repper? Thats pretty much it. You can't just think of plates in just gallente terms, especially in armor based suits which by ther very nature are difficult for scramblers and flux weapons. Also, yes heavies should brick tank because they're huge slow moving targets. Scouts probably shouldn't, but even then its not scouts that are merely bricktanking that seem to cause so many problems. Its the shooting while cloaked ability they have that make scouts so rage inducing. I honestly don't see as to why ferroscale plates reguire more resources than normal plating. Yes, the benefit is having no speed penalty, but that doesn't make them useful for tanking whatsoever, especially for a heavy. A heavy with normal plating is considerably more powerful than one with ferroscale plating. There's no question to it... so why do they require more cpu/pg? If anything, normal plating should require slightly more resources than ferroscale. Even then, they still don't seem quite worth it themselves. I'd like it if CCP could implement more high slot modules, specifically more shield modules, like Heavy Shielding, which would nicely complement the Caldari Sentinel, as long as the module has high CPU and low PG to suit the stats. Perhaps a heftier penalty in shield recharge and/or delay. What we need is variety, and it's sad that we don't have it.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 357	Posted - 2014.05.20 15:14:00 - [105] - Quote maybe the ferro plates could cost more isk wise than the normal plating,&or less pg/cpu with like a 5-10% hp buff &or the added healing of reactive plates (possible plate merger?) just possible ideas. patent it. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2367	Posted - 2014.05.20 18:43:00 - [106] - Quote oooooohhh.... Armor plates could cause a cloak time penalty (reduce total cloak time by spending x% per activation). Then amarr scouts could hugely reduce this penalty so they could be the better cloaking battle scouts.
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 62	Posted - 2014.05.20 18:59:00 - [107] - Quote running low on time so I can't read all of these, but it seems to me that the issues are that there isn't any balance in the options armour plates are just straight better than other low slot modules and with no stacking penalties then why not what else is gonna go there? a lot of the problem was caused when 1.8 dropped everybody already knew that shields were weaker than armour and with no shield repair options available vs the extra high slots of gallente most players chose to play using low slots. therefore most people choose to play for armour and ignore shields. the shield tankers also use the armour plates because regulators help shields but not enough given that shields get ripped through quickly. shields can't be logi supported it makes it nessecary if we want a logi that we have extra armour for squad play. the other options just don't help the squad, or even your own survivability. if shields get balanced now people have already specced into gallente so they don't need to worry about it now, options for low slots will need to be made better so that it's worth using instead of extra plates... or start putting in stacking penalties that said please balance the shields though, they need attention. I would also rather see improvements elsewhere as opposed to more nerfs
Dunce Masterson Savage Bullet 104	Posted - 2014.05.20 22:20:00 - [108] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We need a lively discussion on this one. Status update (yes I know you know) Plates are being used to stack EHP in over abundance. There is little drawback to that strategy and the other options are not competitive/viable. This is having a big effect on the landscape, both brick tanked scouts and heavies, making scramblers/flux weapons out of place. I would like to hear ideas on how to remedy that. For insight, these are the armor modules ordered by consumption 1. Plates 2. Repair 3. Reactive 4. Ferroscale out of the three plates, normal plates are 85& prevalent and the other two split the difference. How to make them viable, and also a bonus question, can "active" armor tanking be viable without being OP. My GA sentinel with 4 pro reps is not competitive, fun, but not competitive. Discuss. 2. Repair; these repair to slowly a 25% increase to their repair rate will make them playable 3. Reactive; these are to expensive on fitting and should be the cheapest the only way to justify their fitting requirement would be to give them the ferroscale hit points with the current armor repair rates 2, 3, 5. or you could just make them % based giving say 10% armor and 2% armor repaired p/s at basic. 4. Ferroscale; again their fitting requirement is kinda high for what they give. I don't even know why I bother.
bear90211 Nyain San General Tso's Alliance 207	Posted - 2014.05.20 23:11:00 - [109] - Quote This has been a problem for ages, Lets take into figure. Say, a heavy (Lets say he has a very strong and capable suit, more load cap and weight bearing ability) get the full amount from the plate, and with less movement penalty, (Lets say 4-5%) a medium frame is well, a medium suit.Lower load cap and survivable in not too active, front line combat. say he puts a complex plate on, he gets a slight deduction, say 115 HP from it, but gets lets say, a 6-10% reduction to speed. now a scout, a light, non combatant meant for sniping, or behind the lines suit, would get the greatest nerf from this plate. say, he will only get 95HP from a complex plate, and a 12-16% speed reduction. as we know, the scout frame is meant to be the lightest, fastest suit that dose not stack armor but rather shields and kin cats or something like that. now armor reps, I would say put MLT:4/s STD:4/s ADV:6/s PRO:8/s. and give all suits a natural armor rep, its the future, remember that. say heavies get a 10 base, medium get a 6/7 base, and scouts get a 3/4 base. and also, give weapons weight as well, Its not like a heavy can run a base 5.7M/s without anything on, and still run that fast with a 400 pound weapon in his hands. well, good day :) My sig is suuper old.. now i rip faces with my HMG. looking for logies yo.btw #tacos
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 573	Posted - 2014.05.20 23:52:00 - [110] - Quote TTK is in a good place now, so I think it would be very unfortunate if this neckbearded idea were to imbalance that. Personally, I have a strong feeling that it will. As a logi, the last thing I want to experience is nerf #27 to my class, coming this time in the form of a nerf to my survivability. Unintended consequences are a mother, CCP.

Artemis Kaiba Shadow Broker Wet Squad 47	Posted - 2014.05.21 04:15:00 - [111] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We need a lively discussion on this one. Status update (yes I know you know) Plates are being used to stack EHP in over abundance. There is little drawback to that strategy and the other options are not competitive/viable. This is having a big effect on the landscape, both brick tanked scouts and heavies, making scramblers/flux weapons out of place. I would like to hear ideas on how to remedy that. For insight, these are the armor modules ordered by consumption 1. Plates 2. Repair 3. Reactive 4. Ferroscale out of the three plates, normal plates are 85& prevalent and the other two split the difference. How to make them viable, and also a bonus question, can "active" armor tanking be viable without being OP. My GA sentinel with 4 pro reps is not competitive, fun, but not competitive. Discuss. What I think : Ferroscale plates give too much HP for no drawback. I don't like them (OP). Shields, in the other hand, give not much HP for a useless drawback (delay isn't much trouble and can be counter with regulator easily). Why shield aren't like I've heard it is on Eve : increase shield HP while making the hitbox larger ? Balancing armor and shield in a more "Eve" way would be more interesting according to me. They would both give same HP value, armor would reduce speed, shield would increase hitbox size. For the bonus question, introducing some rep modules like you did for shield (drastically increase regen while reducing total HP) could make the thing.
Cardio Therapy Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 30	Posted - 2014.05.21 07:17:00 - [112] - Quote Give us motivation to go for complex plates. speed penalty is too high and this game is all about speed. Speed penalty needs to be according to the frame: highest for light and lowest for heavy
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 971	Posted - 2014.05.21 20:49:00 - [113] - Quote Cross posting from a shield extender thread. Quote: I think that a basic shield extender giving somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 hp would be more realistic. At least then you have ~half the functionality of a basic plate. Enhanced extender of maybe 55-60 and complex of max 80-85. That way there is a clear distinction between tiers of module and a reasonable lower limit. Stacking penalties should be extremely severe (as has been discussed in the armor rebalancing thread) such that modules of the same tier should have significantly reduced effectiveness. With a complex shield extender maxing out at 80-85 that keeps shields well below the buffer potential of armor. Ferroscale plates could max out around 100 hp at complex and enhanced level around 80-85 (approximately 1 tier above shield and 1 tier below regular plates) with fitting costs split between shield extender and reg plates (ie higher cpu than plates, lower than shields and ~ same pg 11-12) The changes I'm proposing would only work, and balance, IF and only IF something significant is done to reduce the benefits of stacking buffer modules to the exclusion of all else. (significant stacking penalties and increased bonuses to auxiliary buffer mods (energizer, repper, etc.) If stacking isn't modified then changing hp amounts will only exacerbate the current balance situation. I'm hopeful, based on the development discussion in the armor balance threads, that something will be done to rectify the situation somewhat in which case there might be some further things, such as what I'm suggesting, that could diversify the fitting meta. Ferroscale plates are completely worthless as is (as seen by consumption). They need at minimum a reduction in fitting cost or an increase in HP, probably a bit of both.
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 971	Posted - 2014.05.21 21:00:00 - [114] - Quote Artemis Kaiba wrote: What I think : Ferroscale plates give too much HP for no drawback. I don't like them (OP). Shields, in the other hand, give not much HP for a useless drawback (delay isn't much trouble and can be counter with regulator easily). Why shield aren't like I've heard it is on Eve : increase shield HP while making the hitbox larger ? Balancing armor and shield in a more "Eve" way would be more interesting according to me. They would both give same HP value, armor would reduce speed, shield would increase hitbox size. For the bonus question, introducing some rep modules like you did for shield (drastically increase regen while reducing total HP) could make the thing. Ferroscales are worthless (duplicating some things I've already said); consumption is at the bottom of the armor plate use pile, they cost significantly more than regular plates (fitting), and provide much lower HP buffer than regular plates and is barely competitive against shields right now (despite dramatic penalties to recharging compared to shields). Also, the energizer modules for shields they introduced months ago are also bad and why introduce a similar module for armor if the shield one isn't used frequently already. If we fix them adn then introduce something like that for shields (replacing reactives maybe) SUPER HIGH fitting costs (ie >90 cpu for complex) with a very low % increase to recharge rate. It would be great for scouts...except they can't fit enough buffer to need a higher recharge rate, and sentinels, who would benefit the most from recharge increases, don't have a high enough base to make use of the % increase.
The-Errorist 702	Posted - 2014.05.21 23:37:00 - [115] - Quote Copy pated from https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2172963#post2172963 Here is my plan to fixing a lot of these problems Problem: Shield extenders don't have a balanced progression Solution: Make enhanced shield extenders give 44 HP instead of 33; 22/44/66 makes a hole lot more sense. Problem: Armor plates give too much HP for the amount of PG they take up. Solution: Instead of making armor plate take up high CPU and low PG, reverse that in a balanced way like how armor plates for vehicles and EVE are more PG intensive than CPU. Its crazy how plates take up less PG than shield extenders. Problem: Reactives and ferroscales are rarely used compared to regular plates Solutions: Increase speed penalty for plates to 3/5/7% Change ferroscale plates to have a consistent progression of 30/55/75 HP instead of their current 35/50/75. Change reactives to 25/47/69 and give them all a 2hp/s repair rate like the standard armor repair module and make the speed penalty 1/2/3% Problems: Shield rechargers and energizers aren't being used as much and shield regulators take up too much resources for its small bonus, making them not worth taking up a slot. Solutions: Lower PG/CPU cost of shield rechargers, energizers, and regulators a little. Give rechargers and energizers a small buff Give regulators a normal sized buff Make rechargers & energizers low slot modules. Fix Amarr's. Minmatars, and Caldari's basic frame and assaults slot layouts. Basically, here's what a assault/logi's slot layout & progression should be: Give the Cal logistics 3 equip slots at STD. Also 4 equip at PRO (reduce mod slot from 9 to 8 in exchange). Give all assaults the same number of mod slots. Equalize the mod slot layouts for assaults & logis of the same race & tier: Make medium frames become something in between the specialized assaults and logis by having 2 equipments slots Assault & logi STD (high/low) Am: 2/4 Ga: 2/4 Ca: 4/2 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 3/3 Assault & logi ADV Am: 2/5 Ga: 3/4 Ca: 5/2 Min: 4/3 Assault & logi PRO Am: 3/5 Ga: 3/5 Ca: 5/3 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 4/4 After these changes, we'll see what would need to be retweaked. What do you guys think? MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1340	Posted - 2014.05.21 23:46:00 - [116] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Copy pated from https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2172963#post2172963 Here is my plan to fixing a lot of these problems Problem: Shield extenders don't have a balanced progression Solution: Make enhanced shield extenders give 44 HP instead of 33; 22/44/66 makes a hole lot more sense. Problem: Armor plates give too much HP for the amount of PG they take up. Solution: Instead of making armor plate take up high CPU and low PG, reverse that in a balanced way like how armor plates for vehicles and EVE are more PG intensive than CPU. Its crazy how plates take up less PG than shield extenders. Problem: Reactives and ferroscales are rarely used compared to regular plates Solutions: Increase speed penalty for normal plates to 3/5/7% Make ferroscales cost as much as regular plates. Change ferroscale plates to have a consistent progression of 30/55/75 HP instead of their current 35/50/75. Change reactives to 25/47/69 and give them all a 2hp/s repair rate like the standard armor repair module and make the speed penalty 1/2/3% Problem: Armor repair modules aren't used as much as they should and they don't have a balanced repair progression Solution: Make repair modules give 2/4/6 HP/s. Problems: Shield rechargers and energizers aren't being used as much and shield regulators take up too much resources for its small bonus, making them not worth taking up a slot. Solutions: Lower PG/CPU cost of shield rechargers, energizers, and regulators a little. Give rechargers and energizers a small buff Give regulators a normal sized buff Make rechargers & energizers low slot modules. Fix Amarr's. Minmatars, and Caldari's basic frame and assaults slot layouts. Basically, here's what a assault/logi's slot layout & progression should be: Give the Cal logistics 3 equip slots at STD. Also 4 equip at PRO (reduce mod slot from 9 to 8 in exchange). Give all assaults the same number of mod slots. Equalize the mod slot layouts for assaults & logis of the same race & tier: Make medium frames become something in between the specialized assaults and logis by having 2 equipments slots Assault & logi STD (high/low) Am: 2/4 Ga: 2/4 Ca: 4/2 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 3/3 Assault & logi ADV Am: 2/5 Ga: 3/4 Ca: 5/2 Min: 4/3 Assault & logi PRO Am: 3/5 Ga: 3/5 Ca: 5/3 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 4/4 After these changes, we'll see what would need to be retweaked. What do you guys think?Copy pated from https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2172963#post2172963 Here is my plan to fixing a lot of these problems Problem: Shield extenders don't have a balanced progression Solution: Make enhanced shield extenders give 44 HP instead of 33; 22/44/66 makes a hole lot more sense. Problem: Armor plates give too much HP for the amount of PG they take up. Solution: Instead of making armor plate take up high CPU and low PG, reverse that in a balanced way like how armor plates for vehicles and EVE are more PG intensive than CPU. Its crazy how plates take up less PG than shield extenders. Problem: Reactives and ferroscales are rarely used compared to regular plates Solutions: Increase speed penalty for normal plates to 3/5/7% Make ferroscales cost as much as regular plates. Change ferroscale plates to have a consistent progression of 30/55/75 HP instead of their current 35/50/75. Change reactives to 25/47/69 and give them all a 2hp/s repair rate like the standard armor repair module and make the speed penalty 1/2/3% Problems: Shield rechargers and energizers aren't being used as much and shield regulators take up too much resources for its small bonus, making them not worth taking up a slot. Solutions: Lower PG/CPU cost of shield rechargers, energizers, and regulators a little. Give rechargers and energizers a small buff Give regulators a normal sized buff Make rechargers & energizers low slot modules. Fix Amarr's. Minmatars, and Caldari's basic frame and assaults slot layouts. Basically, here's what a assault/logi's slot layout & progression should be: Give the Cal logistics 3 equip slots at STD. Also 4 equip at PRO (reduce mod slot from 9 to 8 in exchange). Give all assaults the same number of mod slots. Equalize the mod slot layouts for assaults & logis of the same race & tier: Make medium frames become something in between the specialized assaults and logis by having 2 equipments slots Assault & logi STD (high/low) Am: 2/4 Ga: 2/4 Ca: 4/2 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 3/3 Assault & logi ADV Am: 2/5 Ga: 3/4 Ca: 5/2 Min: 4/3 Assault & logi PRO Am: 3/5 Ga: 3/5 Ca: 5/3 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 4/4 After these changes, we'll see what would need to be retweaked. What do you guys think? Thanks, we are very much aligned on this proposal actually. Keep an eye out for our next formal communication. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

The-Errorist Sver true blood 702	Posted - 2014.05.22 01:11:00 - [117] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Stuff Thanks, we are very much aligned on this proposal actually. Keep an eye out for our next formal communication. I really wish that you and the other awesome devs were in charge/working on Dust from the start. MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
iliel Intara Direct Action Caldari State 51	Posted - 2014.05.22 03:48:00 - [118] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Stuff Thanks, we are very much aligned on this proposal actually. Keep an eye out for our next formal communication. I really wish that you and the other awesome devs were in charge/working on Dust from the start. Agreed. Really looking forward to these changes - - especially if they're all as Errorist suggested.
Dunce Masterson Savage Bullet 106	Posted - 2014.05.22 03:54:00 - [119] - Quote Are you kidding me the speed penalty was reduced for a good reason the best way to correct the imbalance is to buff the other modules. I don't even know why I bother.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 574	Posted - 2014.05.22 03:56:00 - [120] - Quote These last few exchanges scare me. So what's your goal again? It looks like you're trying to achieve some kind of arbitrary shield/armor balance without considering how it will affect the classes you aren't even interested in targeting. This conversation started with the premise that heavies and some scouts were way too tanked. However, I am now seeing this discussion take a turn that involves removing slots from logis and generally leaving mediums with less HP than before. You realize that we're taking a beating out there, right? You want to talk about balance? How about we discuss the cost of being effective in a support role versus the cost of being effective as a heavy or a scout? Suits that cost a fraction of mine are killing me left and right because it doesn't cost a whole hell of a lot to rack up HMG kills in a basic heavy suit or to cloak up with a shotgun and terrorize mercs in a scout suit. Being a logi is a high price, high risk, and low reward game. Sure, the WP can be great sometimes, but we're losing ISK hand over fist. The logi class is on its last legs, Rattati. Be mindful of your choices and their consequences.



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