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Proposed Ideas to Improve Planetary Conquest

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Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3177	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:03:00 - [1] - Quote I think we all realise that Planetary Conquest has some holes in it still and I think simple changes could be made to dramatically improve how PC 1.0 plays out. The current situation I think exemplifies some of the numerous issues from clone pack size to passive ISK being better than fighting. I have a series of proposed ideas that I'd like to hear the community's thoughts on. Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. Turn off clone auto sale or reduced passive clone sales to 60k and increase biomass from battle to 160k Make it where you only get ISK for clones killed in battle, which will tie up some loose ends potential locking for profit. Make clone moves a minimum of 200 clones so that a district is weakened when an attack is launched and help minimize the snowball effect of owning many many districts. Explore the idea of opening another Region of space in Dust 514 Planetary Conquest to spur activity, but only if the issues with passive ISK are addressed. Implement a district transfer function so that a corporation doesn't have to use a clone pack to get into PC and also open up possibilities in terms of how conflicts are resolved outside of battle. Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even. Thanks to Eugune Killmore for helping get some of the brain juice flowing in this discussion. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Sardonk Eternia RisingSuns 202	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:12:00 - [2] - Quote I've only engaged in PC a little but I understand the issues it faces. I really like your idea about clone moves of 200 so the attacker is left with a semi-vulnerable district. Also yes the loss of passive income is important. To make up for that loss EVE players need a bigger incentive to "lease" benefits from the districts from dust players, in exchange for ISK.
k-con 152	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:14:00 - [3] - Quote \o/ The Asian Sensation from Red* Accused of Driving While Asian Bro, Do YoU eVeN cLoAk!?
Traky78 What The French Red Whines. 836	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:29:00 - [4] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I think we all realise that Planetary Conquest has some holes in it still and I think simple changes could be made to dramatically improve how PC 1.0 plays out. The current situation I think exemplifies some of the numerous issues from clone pack size to passive ISK being better than fighting. I have a series of proposed ideas that I'd like to hear the community's thoughts on. Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. Turn off clone auto sale or reduced passive clone sales to 60k and increase biomass from battle to 160k Make it where you only get ISK for clones killed in battle, which will tie up some loose ends potential locking for profit. Make clone moves a minimum of 200 clones so that a district is weakened when an attack is launched and help minimize the snowball effect of owning many many districts. Explore the idea of opening another Region of space in Dust 514 Planetary Conquest to spur activity, but only if the issues with passive ISK are addressed. Implement a district transfer function so that a corporation doesn't have to use a clone pack to get into PC and also open up possibilities in terms of how conflicts are resolved outside of battle. Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even. Thanks to Eugene Killmore for helping get some of the brain juice flowing in this discussion. 80 millions for 200 clones is too much, 60 millions will be much better. What The French CEO
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3181	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:32:00 - [5] - Quote Traky78 wrote: 80 millions for 200 clones is too much, 60 millions will be much better. I'm concerned if the price is too low and the clone pack to0 useful we'll just end up with everyone using clone packs rather than their districts. The higher price also makes sure that locking with clones packs is done at a significant loss. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Sir Snugglz Red Star. EoN. 605	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:36:00 - [6] - Quote Instead of opening up another region why not unlock more planets??? only 1 out of 10 or so planets per system are being used... -Pro AFKing LVL 5 -Luck is just one of my skills -Just because I make flying look easy doesn't mean it is
Exergonic TeamPlayers 333	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:37:00 - [7] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I think we all realise that Planetary Conquest has some holes in it still and I think simple changes could be made to dramatically improve how PC 1.0 plays out. The current situation I think exemplifies some of the numerous issues from clone pack size to passive ISK being better than fighting. I have a series of proposed ideas that I'd like to hear the community's thoughts on. Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. Turn off clone auto sale or reduced passive clone sales to 60k and increase biomass from battle to 160k Make it where you only get ISK for clones killed in battle, which will tie up some loose ends potential locking for profit. Make clone moves a minimum of 200 clones so that a district is weakened when an attack is launched and help minimize the snowball effect of owning many many districts. Explore the idea of opening another Region of space in Dust 514 Planetary Conquest to spur activity, but only if the issues with passive ISK are addressed. Implement a district transfer function so that a corporation doesn't have to use a clone pack to get into PC and also open up possibilities in terms of how conflicts are resolved outside of battle. Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even. Thanks to Eugene Killmore for helping get some of the brain juice flowing in this discussion. Good post +1 Ps... Don't forget drones!
bigolenuts Dirt Nap Squad. 520	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:44:00 - [8] - Quote I have a decent idea (I think of course) on how to tier PC. I'm not very good at expressing these types of thought to paper. If someone would like to chit-chat and take notes it would be much appreciated. I think my idea would work but not sure of the whole, making it work in a PS3 plays out. Kane, if you would one night. I can tell you and you can shoot holes in it. Since you know about this PS3 system working, thingy. My Dustanese is very limited. "I am not a liberator. Liberators do not exist. The people liberate themselves."-1958, Ernesto "Che" Guevara
DJINN Rampage Dirt Nap Squad. 1235	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:44:00 - [9] - Quote yes to all GÿáTemplar of the Exiled.GäóGÖå GÖ½ +¬ Gÿ+ Æ. ... Who gives a flux. +ª GêP Signature move: 5-Finger PubStomp -å
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 1855	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:46:00 - [10] - Quote I support this post. Entirely. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate

neolutumus The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 27	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:49:00 - [11] - Quote I am just going to leave this here and there and everywhere Give DUST514 some direction.
Grimmiers 0uter.Heaven 502	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:50:00 - [12] - Quote Does the reward at the end screen include clones you've lost along with the enemies? SoundCloud Recruiter Link Pronounced Grim-e-urs
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3187	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:50:00 - [13] - Quote neolutumus wrote: I am just going to leave this here and there and everywhere In this discussion I'm looking for simple solutions that can be primarily hotfixes. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Dj grammer Red Star. EoN. 172	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:51:00 - [14] - Quote +1 on idea Kain Open Beta (12/13/2012) to a 1-year Vet. Have been a Logistics user since Uprising 1.0. Yea that old.
CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 279	Posted - 2014.04.05 20:07:00 - [15] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Traky78 wrote: 80 millions for 200 clones is too much, 60 millions will be much better. I'm concerned if the price is too low and the clone pack to0 useful we'll just end up with everyone using clone packs rather than their districts. The higher price also makes sure that locking with clones packs is done at a significant loss. 160 clones for 50mill The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy"s will to be imposed upon him. Sun Tzu
neolutumus The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 27	Posted - 2014.04.05 20:11:00 - [16] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: In this discussion I'm looking for simple solutions that can be primarily hotfixes. Understood, I apologize for my unruly interdiction ;) Give DUST514 some direction.
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 1468	Posted - 2014.04.05 20:27:00 - [17] - Quote Good ideas, 200 clone Clone Packs would truly make battles a lot more exciting. I would know cause we've been fighting you guys and 120 clones goes away pretty fast lol +1 The Sinwarden
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3195	Posted - 2014.04.05 20:31:00 - [18] - Quote 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: Good ideas, 200 clone Clone Packs would truly make battles a lot more exciting. I would know cause we've been fighting you guys and 120 clones goes away pretty fast lol +1 120 Clones it utter crap and a waste of ISK. It has to get changed. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
TechMechMeds SWAMPERIUM 2966	Posted - 2014.04.05 20:41:00 - [19] - Quote Sounds good but you know as well as the next man that PC is done. You'd have to be a proper idiot to want to grind for months just to either get everything taken off you anyway or blue up. Trust me, the end game in dust is the most pointless joke ever. Sources? Hundreds upon hundreds of players coming, grinding and then quitting. It needs to change a lot but your ideas definitely slow down the already beyond fked state of PC, we have talked about it and I dream that one day, PC will change a lot, not just sprinkles. I guarantee that by that time though, games like dust will simply be the norm. If you know what a telefrag match is, then I love you. Dust for over a year, gaming for over 18 and counting.
TechMechMeds SWAMPERIUM 2967	Posted - 2014.04.05 21:01:00 - [20] - Quote I forgot to add. We need alternate ways to grind/make isk. I cannot stress how big a problem it is. Its the ROOT of so many issues and I'm sick of seeing people with billions call smaller corps cowards because we don't see it fit to grind for months in shtty fits just to lose it all anyway, like I stated, you'd have to be a complete special case/newb to think PC is worth all that effort. I value time, dust already continues to waste it, I'm not going to exponentially waste time grinding for a loss. I find it insulting that CCP expects us to grind so blatantly, your game really isn't that good CCP lol. If you know what a telefrag match is, then I love you. Dust for over a year, gaming for over 18 and counting.

SUCIA-KEILY Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 26	Posted - 2014.04.05 21:16:00 - [21] - Quote I find good ideas, I have another 75% of the attack or defense of a district is made with players of the same corporation that attacking or defending. so many ghosts corporations were eliminated, other practices of courage that passeth not to comment.
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3200	Posted - 2014.04.05 22:43:00 - [22] - Quote SUCIA-KEILY wrote: I find good ideas, I have another 75% of the attack or defense of a district is made with players of the same corporation that attacking or defending. so many ghosts corporations were eliminated, other practices of courage that passeth not to comment. I think it's important to allow players the freedom of association, so I really don't see this as a good idea. For example, (and something I'll add to the list) is that I think that anyone should be able to provide Orbital support despite your alliance membership. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 858	Posted - 2014.04.05 22:47:00 - [23] - Quote Kain, I think a lot of your ideas have merit, however, I'm concerned that the PC system is too far gone at the is point. If all your other fixes went AND a significant area (that was lucrative enough to attract EVE players) was opened up it might stabilize things for a while. The imbalance of the ISK pool in a relative handful of people's wallets is still pretty daunting. As long as the mechanics allow a group of 25 or less players dominate things I'm not sure we have a good solution. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
TechMechMeds SWAMPERIUM 2971	Posted - 2014.04.05 22:55:00 - [24] - Quote I'm almost level 3 lol. If you know what a telefrag match is, then I love you. Dust for over a year, gaming for over 18 and counting.
norttheantiv The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 107	Posted - 2014.04.05 23:55:00 - [25] - Quote What do people think about clone pack prices being related to ownership. The less districts a Corp hold the cheaper the clone pack. For example, let's say all clone packs become 200 clones If the Corp issuing the attack has no districts this is say 40 mil If the corp owns one district it becomes 80 mil and so on. I know that this might be open to exploitation and needs further development as an idea, but it would definitely cause corps that might otherwise not attack to do so as much for recreation as to get themselves a district. This would also stop larger groups using clone pack attacks as it would become cost prohibitive. Winner EU Squad Cup Go Go Power Rangers!
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3203	Posted - 2014.04.06 00:14:00 - [26] - Quote norttheantiv wrote: What do people think about clone pack prices being related to ownership. The less districts a Corp hold the cheaper the clone pack. For example, let's say all clone packs become 200 clones If the Corp issuing the attack has no districts this is say 40 mil If the corp owns one district it becomes 80 mil and so on. I know that this might be open to exploitation and needs further development as an idea, but it would definitely cause corps that might otherwise not attack to do so as much for recreation as to get themselves a district. This would also stop larger groups using clone pack attacks as it would become cost prohibitive. You would just end up with folks creating shell corps to launch cheap clone packs from, so it would make the game more annoying without actually solving anything. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Odigos Ellinas Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 54	Posted - 2014.04.06 00:48:00 - [27] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I think we all realise that Planetary Conquest has some holes in it still and I think simple changes could be made to dramatically improve how PC 1.0 plays out. The current situation I think exemplifies some of the numerous issues from clone pack size to passive ISK being better than fighting. I have a series of proposed ideas that I'd like to hear the community's thoughts on. Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. Turn off clone auto sale or reduced passive clone sales to 60k and increase biomass from battle to 160k Make it where you only get ISK for clones killed in battle, which will tie up some loose ends potential locking for profit. Make clone moves a minimum of 200 clones so that a district is weakened when an attack is launched and help minimize the snowball effect of owning many many districts. Explore the idea of opening another Region of space in Dust 514 Planetary Conquest to spur activity, but only if the issues with passive ISK are addressed. Implement a district transfer function so that a corporation doesn't have to use a clone pack to get into PC and also open up possibilities in terms of how conflicts are resolved outside of battle. Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even. Add the ability for any Eve pilot to connect to a district and fire for either team. This would allow freedom of association when it comes to alliance membership and allow Dust matches to be content for all of New Eden. Thanks to Eugene Killmore for helping get some of the brain juice flowing in this discussion. 2 questions: 1.What about the timer ??? I Believe it should be reduced so large corp has a advantage. This way more players can access PC. 2.Why not allow to attack with 2 clone packs???
Deluxe Edition TeamPlayers 746	Posted - 2014.04.06 00:55:00 - [28] - Quote I have another addition. Instead of passive isk from clones give players the ability to go to their corporations (or alliances) districts and clear out drone infestations for ISK and loot (no SP your still have to fight battles for that). The drone infestations will pay much higher than public battles and will provide incentive for the individual player to want to get involved in PC to make high amounts of isk. Also ensure that each district can support around 12 players at a time, this way a corporation isn't forced to overextend or blue up a ton of people to make PC worthwhile to their members. Scale them in difficulty as well (some can be done solo, others require a squad). The corporation makes isk from taxes and the individual players are able to receive a benefit from their work defending their district. Also allow corporations to upgrade their districts so better drone infestation spawns that drop more isk, and better loot.
Odigos Ellinas Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 54	Posted - 2014.04.06 01:06:00 - [29] - Quote Deluxe Edition wrote: I have another addition. Instead of passive isk from clones give players the ability to go to their corporations (or alliances) districts and clear out drone infestations for ISK and loot (no SP your still have to fight battles for that). The drone infestations will pay much higher than public battles and will provide incentive for the individual player to want to get involved in PC to make high amounts of isk. Also ensure that each district can support around 12 players at a time, this way a corporation isn't forced to overextend or blue up a ton of people to make PC worthwhile to their members. Scale them in difficulty as well (some can be done solo, others require a squad). The corporation makes isk from taxes and the individual players are able to receive a benefit from their work defending their district. Also allow corporations to upgrade their districts so better drone infestation spawns that drop more isk, and better loot. Like he already said Kain Spero wrote: neolutumus wrote: I am just going to leave this here and there and everywhere In this discussion I'm looking for simple solutions that can be primarily hotfixes.
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 623	Posted - 2014.04.06 01:41:00 - [30] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. id prefer to just buy each clone individually, 400 k each It'll help define roles, i promise:)

iliel Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 21	Posted - 2014.04.06 02:07:00 - [31] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I think we all realise that Planetary Conquest has some holes in it still and I think simple changes could be made to dramatically improve how PC 1.0 plays out. The current situation I think exemplifies some of the numerous issues from clone pack size to passive ISK being better than fighting. I have a series of proposed ideas that I'd like to hear the community's thoughts on. [1] Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. [2] Turn off clone auto sale or reduced passive clone sales to 60k and increase biomass from battle to 160k [3] Make it where you only get ISK for clones killed in battle, which will tie up some loose ends potential locking for profit. [4]Make clone moves a minimum of 200 clones so that a district is weakened when an attack is launched and help minimize the snowball effect of owning many many districts. [5]Explore the idea of opening another Region of space in Dust 514 Planetary Conquest to spur activity, but only if the issues with passive ISK are addressed. [6]Implement a district transfer function so that a corporation doesn't have to use a clone pack to get into PC and also open up possibilities in terms of how conflicts are resolved outside of battle. [7]Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even. [8]Add the ability for any Eve pilot to connect to a district and fire for either team. This would allow freedom of association when it comes to alliance membership and allow Dust matches to be content for all of New Eden. Thanks to Eugene Killmore for helping get some of the brain juice flowing in this discussion. Items 1-5 are perfect. Item 6 seems like it could introduce a new form of district locking (for example, a corp transfers its district to an ally the moment that district comes online). Therefore, it is problematic. Item 7 is interesting. However, there is the current problem where players who actually kill a clone or destroy a vehicle are not necessarily rewarded the said clone's gear or the vehicle. This, I think, must be changed before an option for players to sell their loot is offered. Item 8 also seems interesting. My guess is that you want to allow corporations in the same alliance to have friendly but competitive skirmishes with one another. However, I think your suggested change would make the Eve-Dust connection a bit arbitrary and could further alienate the Dust community from Eve. Should you want something like 'practice matches,' perhaps suggest that CCP releaase another game mode to be a part of 'Other Contracts.' I mean: they already have the code for corporate battles, why not just tweak that code to be like the current PC and put it into the 'Other Contract' section? Great work overall.
Kaughst Nyain San Dirt Nap Squad. 390	Posted - 2014.04.06 02:27:00 - [32] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: Good ideas, 200 clone Clone Packs would truly make battles a lot more exciting. I would know cause we've been fighting you guys and 120 clones goes away pretty fast lol +1 120 Clones it utter crap and a waste of ISK. It has to get changed. I should know heh. I was wondering how clone packs will tie into warbarges once they are announced, it seems like there will be a even greater expense for those WBs for small upstart corps to attack people who have that continued generated ISK and EVE supported allies. "He said he has a alt in STB." "Everyone has a alt in STB."
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3208	Posted - 2014.04.06 03:10:00 - [33] - Quote iliel wrote: Items 1-5 are perfect. Item 6 seems like it could introduce a new form of district locking (for example, a corp transfers its district to an ally the moment that district comes online). Therefore, it is problematic. Item 7 is interesting. However, there is the current problem where players who actually kill a clone or destroy a vehicle are not necessarily rewarded the said clone's gear or the vehicle. This, I think, must be changed before an option for players to sell their loot is offered. Item 8 also seems interesting. My guess is that you want to allow corporations in the same alliance to have friendly but competitive skirmishes with one another. However, I think your suggested change would make the Eve-Dust connection a bit arbitrary and could further alienate the Dust community from Eve. Should you want something like 'practice matches,' perhaps suggest that CCP releaase another game mode to be a part of 'Other Contracts.' I mean: they already have the code for corporate battles, why not just tweak that code to be like the current PC and put it into the 'Other Contract' section? Great work overall. 6: When you transfer a district is would still be available to be attacked. I would likely see it transferring in the "online" state to mirror the way district transfers currently occur through abandonment and then clon-packing. 7: I think right now 50% of gear used in battle is salvaged. I think this option is better than the losers getting no ISK at all. 8. The intent is more to let the relationships between Eve and Dust be more free-form. A small corp could strike up a convo with a pilot in local and have that pilot providing OB support in a couple minutes. I think this would actually help prevent mass groups organizing quite as much under a single just because of Orbital Support. This would also allow corps that have no Eve players and thus can join an alliance to befriend pilots in an alliance and still be able to have them come to their aid. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
iliel Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 23	Posted - 2014.04.06 07:26:00 - [34] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: iliel wrote: Items 1-5 are perfect. Item 6 seems like it could introduce a new form of district locking (for example, a corp transfers its district to an ally the moment that district comes online). Therefore, it is problematic. Item 7 is interesting. However, there is the current problem where players who actually kill a clone or destroy a vehicle are not necessarily rewarded the said clone's gear or the vehicle. This, I think, must be changed before an option for players to sell their loot is offered. Item 8 also seems interesting. My guess is that you want to allow corporations in the same alliance to have friendly but competitive skirmishes with one another. However, I think your suggested change would make the Eve-Dust connection a bit arbitrary and could further alienate the Dust community from Eve. Should you want something like 'practice matches,' perhaps suggest that CCP releaase another game mode to be a part of 'Other Contracts.' I mean: they already have the code for corporate battles, why not just tweak that code to be like the current PC and put it into the 'Other Contract' section? Great work overall. 6: When you transfer a district is would still be available to be attacked. I would likely see it transferring in the "online" state to mirror the way district transfers currently occur through abandonment and then clon-packing. 7: I think right now 50% of gear used in battle is salvaged. I think this option is better than the losers getting no ISK at all. 8. The intent is more to let the relationships between Eve and Dust be more free-form. A small corp could strike up a convo with a pilot in local and have that pilot providing OB support in a couple minutes. I think this would actually help prevent mass groups organizing quite as much under a single just because of Orbital Support. This would also allow corps that have no Eve players and thus can join an alliance to befriend pilots in an alliance and still be able to have them come to their aid. Good points. I bet you and other CPMs will make sure district locking in any form won't make its way into Dust again. So the transferring idea would definitely be useful once setup. I like the idea of selling salvage. Perhaps, if implemented, this function could be added to FW too. The question, though, is: how would salvage be valuated? Also, in terms of the Dust-Eve connection, perhaps you could also add some bonus to Eve players who do eventually ally with a specific Dust corporation or alliance? I think it's useful to continue to develop possibilities of intimate connections between Dust and Eve players. A less intimate relation (like the one you describe) would be a stepping stone for the more intimate ones. I don't play Eve, so I don't know what would be useful to its players. Maybe Eve players who join or ally with a given Dust corp/alliance could generate passive isk according to the playtime of Dust players in that corp/alliance?
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3211	Posted - 2014.04.06 07:45:00 - [35] - Quote iliel wrote: Good points. I bet you and other CPMs will make sure district locking in any form won't make its way into Dust again. So the transferring idea would definitely be useful once setup. I like the idea of selling salvage. Perhaps, if implemented, this function could be added to FW too. The question, though, is: how would salvage be valuated? Also, in terms of the Dust-Eve connection, perhaps you could also add some bonus to Eve players who do eventually ally with a specific Dust corporation or alliance? I think it's useful to continue to develop possibilities of intimate connections between Dust and Eve players. A less intimate relation (like the one you describe) would be a stepping stone for the more intimate ones. I don't play Eve, so I don't know what would be useful to its players. Maybe Eve players who join or ally with a given Dust corp/alliance could generate passive isk according to the playtime of Dust players in that corp/alliance? I'm fairly certain most if not all items actually have an ISK valuation when you look at the SDE or at least have a spot where it can be put on the tables, so that would take care of the loot selling issue. You actually make a good point about FW. That could very well be the solution to adding the bit of ISK to it that it desperately needs. Again this loot selling thing could require too much bandwidth to implement. Ideally I think the bonuses as well as access to OB support could be done via standings. Maybe just make this something that takes place and it set on the Eve side via standings in order to decrease the Dev cost Dust side. The problem here is that I think that could leave some Dust only corps out in the cold. The flip side is I'm fairly certain that adding a standing system in Dust would have a very high Dev cost, so using Eve to implement would be the best bet as far as that is concerned. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 2623	Posted - 2014.04.06 07:58:00 - [36] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Traky78 wrote: 80 millions for 200 clones is too much, 60 millions will be much better. I'm concerned if the price is too low and the clone pack to0 useful we'll just end up with everyone using clone packs rather than their districts. The higher price also makes sure that locking with clones packs is done at a significant loss. While these are great suggestion Kain, I am concerned that the 80 million ISK per clone pack will initially favor the current establishment in the blue doughnut. Video: I don't always fight dropships, but when I do...
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3211	Posted - 2014.04.06 08:17:00 - [37] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Traky78 wrote: 80 millions for 200 clones is too much, 60 millions will be much better. I'm concerned if the price is too low and the clone pack to0 useful we'll just end up with everyone using clone packs rather than their districts. The higher price also makes sure that locking with clones packs is done at a significant loss. While these are great suggestion Kain, I am concerned that the 80 million ISK per clone pack will initially favor the current establishment in the blue doughnut. I actually had a good long talk with Eugene about this. My initial thought was 150 clones at 40 million ISK, but what's needed is a truly effective clone pack that leads to good fights, but still is balanced in that it's better to attack from districts rather than using straight clone packs. 15 Two-hundred man clone packs would be infinitely more effective that 30 120 or even 150 man clone packs in an example of a mass attack. You can't ignore 200 clones and a full team would have to be fielded against 200 clones since you would be unable to just kill 20-50 clones and go. The other reason behind the clone packs being 80 million ISK is that it would make turtling up against a mass attack extremely expensive. At the end of the day nothing can be done to win someone's fights for an organization, but the system can give them a good chance. If people want it to be a numbers game a massive number of clones fighting in pubs and collecting taxes can afford a clone pack in no time, but instead of being a wasted 36 million ISK they get something that's effective but not super spammy. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2111	Posted - 2014.04.06 08:46:00 - [38] - Quote As a temporary fix: Remove all passively generated ISK. Make clone packs CHEAP. => Good fights. Drop it like its hat. I´m a fat scout. Do you even lift bro?
Spartacus Dust NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 273	Posted - 2014.04.06 08:53:00 - [39] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I think we all realise that Planetary Conquest has some holes in it still and I think simple changes could be made to dramatically improve how PC 1.0 plays out. The current situation I think exemplifies some of the numerous issues from clone pack size to passive ISK being better than fighting. I have a series of proposed ideas that I'd like to hear the community's thoughts on. Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. Turn off clone auto sale or reduced passive clone sales to 60k and increase biomass from battle to 160k Make it where you only get ISK for clones killed in battle, which will tie up some loose ends potential locking for profit. Make clone moves a minimum of 200 clones so that a district is weakened when an attack is launched and help minimize the snowball effect of owning many many districts. Explore the idea of opening another Region of space in Dust 514 Planetary Conquest to spur activity, but only if the issues with passive ISK are addressed. Implement a district transfer function so that a corporation doesn't have to use a clone pack to get into PC and also open up possibilities in terms of how conflicts are resolved outside of battle. Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even. Add the ability for any Eve pilot to connect to a district and fire for either team. This would allow freedom of association when it comes to alliance membership and allow Dust matches to be content for all of New Eden. Thanks to Eugene Killmore for helping get some of the brain juice flowing in this discussion. great ideas. Just push the CSM for the orbital bombardment module please and I will be the happiest person in the world Twitter @Matthew_Dust Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.
RemingtonBeaver Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 601	Posted - 2014.04.06 10:05:00 - [40] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I think we all realise that Planetary Conquest has some holes in it still and I think simple changes could be made to dramatically improve how PC 1.0 plays out. The current situation I think exemplifies some of the numerous issues from clone pack size to passive ISK being better than fighting. I have a series of proposed ideas that I'd like to hear the community's thoughts on. [1] Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. [2] Turn off clone auto sale or reduced passive clone sales to 60k and increase biomass from battle to 160k [3] Make it where you only get ISK for clones killed in battle, which will tie up some loose ends potential locking for profit. [4]Make clone moves a minimum of 200 clones so that a district is weakened when an attack is launched and help minimize the snowball effect of owning many many districts. [5]Explore the idea of opening another Region of space in Dust 514 Planetary Conquest to spur activity, but only if the issues with passive ISK are addressed. [6]Implement a district transfer function so that a corporation doesn't have to use a clone pack to get into PC and also open up possibilities in terms of how conflicts are resolved outside of battle. [7]Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even. [8]Add the ability for any Eve pilot to connect to a district and fire for either team. This would allow freedom of association when it comes to alliance membership and allow Dust matches to be content for all of New Eden. Thanks to Eugene Killmore for helping get some of the brain juice flowing in this discussion. I have to take everything you propose as suspect. Having a hand in the exploitation of the system for profit is deplorable. So being as I have not the tiniest bit of trust in your advocacy of the community let's look at what you have. 1: I'm sure inflation would be great for the Doughnut. For everyone else...the only turtle issue right now are the few corps that haven't folded or just became tired of the constant attacks so trying to push that is a hard sell. I do however think it's a good idea in the long run. 2: Agreed. 3: I like this idea, but it would need to be reviewed so the math doesn't increase profits to attackers in such a way that selling a district just to attack it becomes the new profitable thing to do. 4: I like this one. +1 5: PC is completely dead now and that took what, a few days, of paying off the opposition and overrunning the rest of us? I think more space is absolutely necessary. The system is far too small. 6: I hate this and I like it. I like the idea of the larger corps branching out into smaller corps, or helping their smaller corp friends into Molden Heath. I hate how absolutely exploitable this will be. A lot of donations followed by attacks in order to increase profits from the proposed changes you have in part(3). If the math is balanced improperly this will be another "lucrative for scum" aspect....I do however see the benefit to the lore and overall story of planetary conquest. 7: Player market should fix this and stockpiling garbage until then shouldn't be an issue...unless you know something about the player market that we don't 8: +1 I love this idea to pieces, who gave it to you? So let's get some crap fixed. Spero. We can pickle that.

Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5454	Posted - 2014.04.06 12:47:00 - [41] - Quote * Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. Sure, but make it so that clone packs can only be sent from neighboring high-sec areas to put more emphasis on tactical/strategic ownership of districts. If not that, then make it significantly more problematic to use clone packs for corporations that already possess districts, otherwise there's no point in using your district's clones. * Turn off clone auto sale or reduced passive clone sales to 60k and increase biomass from battle to 160k Maybe. Do you have a suggestion for how clones would be sold when over-stocked, if auto-sell is removed? * Make it where you only get ISK for clones killed in battle, which will tie up some loose ends potential locking for profit. Sure. * Make clone moves a minimum of 200 clones so that a district is weakened when an attack is launched and help minimize the snowball effect of owning many many districts. I'm against this. The amount of clones used should be up to the corporation/alliance, not to the game's mechanics trying to encourage fights. * Explore the idea of opening another Region of space in Dust 514 Planetary Conquest to spur activity, but only if the issues with passive ISK are addressed. Against this as well, but I'm a man who believes we should nyx PC altogether and go into station-combat; something Eve Players would honestly want to be involved in. * Implement a district transfer function so that a corporation doesn't have to use a clone pack to get into PC and also open up possibilities in terms of how conflicts are resolved outside of battle. Maybe. Need more time to consider the implications of this. * Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even. Open market can handle this. No reason to dedicate resources to a solution when there is one that is already on the priority list. * Add the ability for any Eve pilot to connect to a district and fire for either team. This would allow freedom of association when it comes to alliance membership and allow Dust matches to be content for all of New Eden. 100% disagree with this unless Warbarge strikes are removed from PC completely. When the CPM elected to keep Orbital Strikes and Warbarge strikes in unison it exacerbated problems in PC dramatically. Eve strikes could be launched before the battle started, killing players before they'd even left the Redline. This was compounded even further as PC entities with Eve support were likely already winning and received more tools to garnish a win through warbarge strikes, creating a problem. I rest the blame solely on the current CPM for those issues as it was by their suggestion that it occurred and this would only further compound those issues. Edit: Also, there desperately needs to be a way to fire back before we start looking into enhancing Eve Players' capabilities for virtually free kills. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Dirks Macker Enlightened Infantries Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 123	Posted - 2014.04.06 13:19:00 - [42] - Quote Before commenting, it worries me that a CPM member is making these specific suggestions. It indicates the current iteration of PC is the base from which CCP will expand on. I may be reading too much into it. I may also be overestimating how much they let the CPM in on. Kain Spero wrote: Explore the idea of opening another Region of space in Dust 514 Planetary Conquest to spur activity, but only if the issues with passive ISK are addressed. This would be good for both games. Here's some ideas on that: Make PC-holding corporations declare a district as their home base. Create roadblocks on PC-holding corps based on distance. For example, attach a CONCORD tax whenever mercs from a corp fight outside of their base planet, from a tiny charge to another planet in system to a considerable sum fighting in another region. The obvious work-around would be holding corps, so there could also be cooldown when fighting in another region which would also limit a player's reach. The bypass to the cooldown timers would be EVE player transportation, making that proposed feature have benefits without making it mandatory. If I were adding regions, I would expand to four, each with a 6-hour deadspot where district timers cannot be set. As an EVE pilot who can say has been everywhere man, my suggestions for new PC regions: Caldari: Low Sec Lonetrek (16 temperate) Gallente: Non-FW Placid (about 20 temperate) or Syndicate shallow constellations (shallow meaning near low sec - about 15 temperate) Amarr: Khanid (over 30 temperates) or eastern Aridia (over 30 temperate). Both could have constellations trimmed to align with other region planet amounts. Kain Spero wrote: Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even. Good idea for PC. Also a good idea for if/when we have to construct our gear to have a recycling option for salvage. Kain Spero wrote: Add the ability for any Eve pilot to connect to a district and fire for either team. This would allow freedom of association when it comes to alliance membership and allow Dust matches to be content for all of New Eden. This is a long time coming. Those with the corp military role could offer a standing reward. When a neutral shows up, they can collect the higher of the two. Enlightened Indoctrination Blog
Odigos Ellinas Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 56	Posted - 2014.04.06 13:28:00 - [43] - Quote "Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even." This should be temporary solution until player market is aded to the game. And can i have a answer for my timer question. Why not shorter timers ??? It will force corporations to recruits more players and send them to PC battles. This way a larger player base can participate in PC.
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3213	Posted - 2014.04.06 14:52:00 - [44] - Quote Odigos Ellinas wrote: "Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even." This should be temporary solution until player market is aded to the game. And can i have a answer for my timer question. Why not shorter timers ??? It will force corporations to recruits more players and send them to PC battles. This way a larger player base can participate in PC. The end goal is to have fights and "surprise" we're fighting now isn't really a great mechanic. People have real lives and should be given the chance to schedule out how to respond to starting a fight or setting up a defense. The other side of this is that the timers as they are give a chance for the organization needed to occur between both Eve and Dust. This would be especially true if Orbital Support is opened up beyond the chains of alliance membership. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3213	Posted - 2014.04.06 14:54:00 - [45] - Quote Dirks Macker wrote: Before commenting, it worries me that a CPM member is making these specific suggestions. It indicates the current iteration of PC is the base from which CCP will expand on. I may be reading too much into it. I may also be overestimating how much they let the CPM in on. I obviously can't comment on any specifics regarding the longer term future of PC, but I do feel that low bandwidth changes in the short term would be resources well spent and provide a positive impact for the PC community. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3249	Posted - 2014.04.06 15:04:00 - [46] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Traky78 wrote: 80 millions for 200 clones is too much, 60 millions will be much better. I'm concerned if the price is too low and the clone pack to0 useful we'll just end up with everyone using clone packs rather than their districts. The higher price also makes sure that locking with clones packs is done at a significant loss. I like the ideas from the OP, I will edit the post after visiting the link but thought I'd share some things I see as vital. I think the price of clone packs should start out low and should fluctuate based on the participation levels in PC. I think that buying a clone pack as a land holding corp should come with a penalty. I also think that utilizing ringers should come at a cost. Call it a clone programming fee. Incentivizing corps to use their own players is better for the long term vibrancy of PC. Maybe this is an area to introduce a corporation management skill to lower your hiring corporation's "tax" burden for using ringers for the mercenary corps out there. I think that mercenary groups should work more like war decs in Eve rather than seeing 15 players coming from outside the corporation who's tag is identified with a given battle. As in Merc corps would be hired to attack districts and being hired to defend a district less common. On the back end of this there needs to another place outside of PC where full team deploy is possible. EDIT: Visited the link ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
BursegSardaukar Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 320	Posted - 2014.04.06 16:28:00 - [47] - Quote I like the idea of dropping the passive ISK generation. If a district fills up, the clones should stop being produced and the owner should have to manually sell them, which opens the district to attack. But I think even that isn't going quite far enough. District ownership should have a sov bill that escalates each day if the clones are not sold off. The longer the district can't produce its full amount, the more the bill increases until a weekly cap. This bill should start at a point where selling the daily clone generation would turn a profit, but if the cap is hit, the cost is about twice what the district produces a day. So sitting happy on a district is discouraged. And after the market opens up, clone sales shouldn't be automatic to an npc corp, they should be placed on the open market where the demand of pc fights will dictate their value. Eventually the value from owning a district should be tied to pve being done on the district, and the clone generation should be for attacks less than isk. CEO of General Tso's Alliance. Winner of Hulkageddon IV. Contact me on my EVE character: Burseg Sardaukar
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3252	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:10:00 - [48] - Quote BursegSardaukar wrote: I like the idea of dropping the passive ISK generation. If a district fills up, the clones should stop being produced and the owner should have to manually sell them, which opens the district to attack. But I think even that isn't going quite far enough. District ownership should have a sov bill that escalates each day if the clones are not sold off. The longer the district can't produce its full amount, the more the bill increases until a weekly cap. This bill should start at a point where selling the daily clone generation would turn a profit, but if the cap is hit, the cost is about twice what the district produces a day. So sitting happy on a district is discouraged. And after the market opens up, clone sales shouldn't be automatic to an npc corp, they should be placed on the open market where the demand of pc fights will dictate their value. Eventually the value from owning a district should be tied to pve being done on the district, and the clone generation should be for attacks less than isk. Now that is a good idea. If PC became as dead as it is now people would be giving away clones hoping for a battle instead of generating billions of ISK. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
Eugene Killmore Red Star. EoN. 400	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:13:00 - [49] - Quote Red Star fully supports kain speros proposed changes to PC mechanics. Even if you dont like his alliance or his plans for PC these changes would give the smaller corps a fighting chance and would make PC much more exciting. Everyone needs to like and bump this thread so CCP takes notice and actually makes a positive change for once. The 2 most important changes to me are * Increasing clone packs to 200 clones (120 is just silly) * Opening up additional regions (Molden Heath is to small) EoN. #1 alliance of ALL TIME undefeated in bloc warfare ;) Forever repping that Red*Star 666 illuminati thug mafia.
Egypt Musk RisingSuns 147	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:25:00 - [50] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. This is a sure fire way to bankrupt smaller corps and and keep PC stagnant as it is. One should not be penalized for wanting to attack you should be able to purchase attack clones by number at the price of 100k -150k per clone up to as many that are on the district being attacked

Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3254	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:34:00 - [51] - Quote Eugene Killmore wrote: Red Star fully supports kain speros proposed changes to PC mechanics. Even if you dont like his alliance or his plans for PC these changes would give the smaller corps a fighting chance and would make PC much more exciting. Everyone needs to like and bump this thread so CCP takes notice and actually makes a positive change for once. The 2 most important changes to me are * Increasing clone packs to 200 clones (120 is just silly) * Opening up additional regions (Molden Heath is to small) I'm not sure if opening up more regions is necessary. I think they should liquidate the clones on districts plus the cost of a clone pack and wipe ownership in MH. In my opinion the #1 reason why a 100% takeover of MH was possible is the lack of participation in PC. Over the last 11 months the poor mechanics and game performance dwindled the numbers down. This isn't to take away from the skill and dominance of Those on top, just a realization that is easy to see if one is being honest with his/herself. This way owners don't get screwed out of what they earned, but we get to start anew. I think for the opening weeks of PC 2.0 that clone packs should only be available to non district holders and they should be cheaper than normal. Call it an event, but the Dust community as a whole has to get more involved for PC to grow into something great. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3254	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:36:00 - [52] - Quote Egypt Musk wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. This is a sure fire way to bankrupt smaller corps and and keep PC stagnant as it is. One should not be penalized for wanting to attack you should be able to purchase attack clones by number at the price of 100k -150k per clone up to as many that are on the district being attacked I think long term the price is good, but it HAS to be cheaper to involve corps that have yet to or no longer participate in PC for some period of time upon release. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 861	Posted - 2014.04.06 18:03:00 - [53] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Egypt Musk wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. This is a sure fire way to bankrupt smaller corps and and keep PC stagnant as it is. One should not be penalized for wanting to attack you should be able to purchase attack clones by number at the price of 100k -150k per clone up to as many that are on the district being attacked I think long term the price is good, but it HAS to be cheaper to involve corps that have yet to or no longer participate in PC for some period of time upon release. The only way the clone pack cost structure is viable long term (particularly if you go to 200x packs) is to find a way for corps to earn ISK outside tax grinds in pubs. FW and PC are huge drains on ISK...the pubs alone can't keep up with that ISK sink and the passive ISK generation of current district owners. If you had PVE that could be used for corp contracts...that might be something. Not sure what the answer its but the ISK balance is maybe the most ugly thing going in PC in the long term. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Odigos Ellinas Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2014.04.06 18:10:00 - [54] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Odigos Ellinas wrote: "Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even." This should be temporary solution until player market is aded to the game. And can i have a answer for my timer question. Why not shorter timers ??? It will force corporations to recruits more players and send them to PC battles. This way a larger player base can participate in PC. The end goal is to have fights and "surprise" we're fighting now isn't really a great mechanic. People have real lives and should be given the chance to schedule out how to respond to starting a fight or setting up a defense. The other side of this is that the timers as they are give a chance for the organization needed to occur between both Eve and Dust. This would be especially true if Orbital Support is opened up beyond the chains of alliance membership. The curent timer alows a small part of the players to excile the majority of players. Opening new systems means giving the small elite more districts. All you need is a good A team. Reducing the timer a corporation will need more then 1 A team. Thats how it works in eve POS (main ISK producers) can be attacked any time. The 24hour timer for the ownership of the system starts after the POS are destroyed. Thats why in Eve small elite corps are working like pirates with random raids and not like large system owners. If you want to hold a system you need alot of members. That should be the same in dust. Now we have a 80% of players with protofittings playing in pubs against new players. Find a way to get protofitting players in to PC.
Odigos Ellinas Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2014.04.06 18:16:00 - [55] - Quote Oh and having as end goal "heaving fight" is realy poor. Having fights is step 1 in a FPS and not end goal. End goal should be a atractive endgame for all players!
Flyingconejo KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 713	Posted - 2014.04.06 18:29:00 - [56] - Quote @Kain You are missing the real problems PC has. Those problems are passive isk generation and unlimited force projection, that allows a corp to chain fights with the same players all around Molden Heath instantly. Those problems are inherent to PC 1.0 design. You can make all the small patches and fixes you want, but the current PC situation wont change because PC 1.0 is broken at its core. Even if DNS breaks after fanfest, Molden Heath will always be dominated by the 4-5 top corps of the moment. Opening more districts would solve nothing. Those corps would have just double the districts they have now, with double the isk. In my opinion, wasting development resources in PC 1.0 would be a mistake, because it is unfixable. Just focus in PC 2.0 and pray they don't screw it up. Also, I have a question. Are your proposals coming from Kain the CPM or from Kain the player? Because, honestly, some of your proposals seem to be made by the player. Making the transfer of districts easier, or making easier the use of mercenary eve pilots, are things that would be of benefit to a very small part of the playerbase. As Kain the player, it is legit for you to push for changes that benefit your game goals. But as CPM, I would prefer you to push CCP to dedicate the development resources they have to things that would make the game better for the entire playerbase, instead of 1%. There is nothing wrong if you are pushing for these changes as Kain the player, but you should make it clear in the OP.
Eugene Killmore Red Star. EoN. 401	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:01:00 - [57] - Quote Flyingconejo wrote: @Kain You are missing the real problems PC has. Those problems are passive isk generation and unlimited force projection, that allows a corp to chain fights with the same players all around Molden Heath instantly. Those problems are inherent to PC 1.0 design. You can make all the small patches and fixes you want, but the current PC situation wont change because PC 1.0 is broken at its core. Even if DNS breaks after fanfest, Molden Heath will always be dominated by the 4-5 top corps of the moment. Opening more districts would solve nothing. Those corps would have just double the districts they have now, with double the isk. In my opinion, wasting development resources in PC 1.0 would be a mistake, because it is unfixable. Just focus in PC 2.0 and pray they don't screw it up. Also, I have a question. Are your proposals coming from Kain the CPM or from Kain the player? Because, honestly, some of your proposals seem to be made by the player. Making the transfer of districts easier, or making easier the use of mercenary eve pilots, are things that would be of benefit to a very small part of the playerbase. As Kain the player, it is legit for you to push for changes that benefit your game goals. But as CPM, I would prefer you to push CCP to dedicate the development resources they have to things that would make the game better for the entire playerbase, instead of 1%. There is nothing wrong if you are pushing for these changes as Kain the player, but you should make it clear in the OP. So the problem is better players can beat crappy players? Thats every fps ever made. Step 1 of fixing pc is making clone packs a option for those without districts. Cus right now its impossible to compete in pc without districts. EoN. #1 alliance of ALL TIME undefeated in bloc warfare ;) Forever repping that Red*Star 666 illuminati thug mafia.
Radar R4D-47 0uter.Heaven 588	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:07:00 - [58] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I think we all realise that Planetary Conquest has some holes in it still and I think simple changes could be made to dramatically improve how PC 1.0 plays out. The current situation I think exemplifies some of the numerous issues from clone pack size to passive ISK being better than fighting. I have a series of proposed ideas that I'd like to hear the community's thoughts on. Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. 2 different clone packs. 120 for 36mil or 200 for 80 Turn off clone auto sale or reduced passive clone sales to 60k and increase biomass from battle to 160k. Remove auto sale. Period. Make it where you only get ISK for clones killed in battle, which will tie up some loose ends potential locking for profit. Agreed. Make clone moves a minimum of 200 clones so that a district is weakened when an attack is launched and help minimize the snowball effect of owning many many districts. Would do little to change the situation. Unless after an attack is launched no reinforcement tier is issued. Explore the idea of opening another Region of space in Dust 514 Planetary Conquest to spur activity, but only if the issues with passive ISK are addressed. Implement a district transfer function so that a corporation doesn't have to use a clone pack to get into PC and also open up possibilities in terms of how conflicts are resolved outside of battle. An actual way of trading or giving contracts is the only way to do this. Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even. Isn't a big issue but would be a nice complimentary prize. Add the ability for any Eve pilot to connect to a district and fire for either team. This would allow freedom of association when it comes to alliance membership and allow Dust matches to be content for all of New Eden. Going back to the ideas of contracts... Send isk to pay for a mercenary group to drop an OB. If anyone could do it things would get messy for no reason. Thanks to Eugene Killmore for helping get some of the brain juice flowing in this discussion. Replies in post. The single biggest thing that would fix this 100% molden heath stuff is reducing clone production to 50 and 25. If enough isk is spent and your killing enough troops eventually the district will flip. Your opposition can easily take it back the same way but passive isk would be impossible to gain as long as battles are played. This would also reduce passive isk gain in half. The only extra mechanic they would need to implement is reinforcing districts with owned districts. So Cargo hubs, surface research labs, and production facilitys have to be used together to wage war efficiently.
Odigos Ellinas Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 59	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:09:00 - [59] - Quote Eugene Killmore wrote: Flyingconejo wrote: @Kain You are missing the real problems PC has. Those problems are passive isk generation and unlimited force projection, that allows a corp to chain fights with the same players all around Molden Heath instantly. Those problems are inherent to PC 1.0 design. You can make all the small patches and fixes you want, but the current PC situation wont change because PC 1.0 is broken at its core. Even if DNS breaks after fanfest, Molden Heath will always be dominated by the 4-5 top corps of the moment. Opening more districts would solve nothing. Those corps would have just double the districts they have now, with double the isk. In my opinion, wasting development resources in PC 1.0 would be a mistake, because it is unfixable. Just focus in PC 2.0 and pray they don't screw it up. Also, I have a question. Are your proposals coming from Kain the CPM or from Kain the player? Because, honestly, some of your proposals seem to be made by the player. Making the transfer of districts easier, or making easier the use of mercenary eve pilots, are things that would be of benefit to a very small part of the playerbase. As Kain the player, it is legit for you to push for changes that benefit your game goals. But as CPM, I would prefer you to push CCP to dedicate the development resources they have to things that would make the game better for the entire playerbase, instead of 1%. There is nothing wrong if you are pushing for these changes as Kain the player, but you should make it clear in the OP. So the problem is better players can beat crappy players? Thats every fps ever made. Step 1 of fixing pc is making clone packs a option for those without districts. Cus right now its impossible to compete in pc without districts. Better players should beat crappy players in a battle. Bing good in a battle and holding a solar system are 2 different things. PC is not a tournament !!! It is supposed to be the endgame for all players.
Flyingconejo KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 716	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:54:00 - [60] - Quote Eugene Killmore wrote: Flyingconejo wrote: @Kain You are missing the real problems PC has. Those problems are passive isk generation and unlimited force projection, that allows a corp to chain fights with the same players all around Molden Heath instantly. ....plus wall of text... So the problem is better players can beat crappy players? Thats every fps ever made. Step 1 of fixing pc is making clone packs a option for those without districts. Cus right now its impossible to compete in pc without districts. Clone packs should be increased, and the community has been asking for that since the 120 clone packs were introduced last summer. About the numbers proposed in the OP, 200 is ok (maybe too much), but 80 millions may be too expensive, if your aim is to allow new corps to enter Molden Heath. Most districts are cargo holds, and that means that the attacker probably would have to use at least 2 clone packs to get them. I don't have a problem with better players beating crappy players. That is as it should be. This is no hate on DNS, because if it wasn't them it would have been someone else. But the ability the game gives you to field the same players in 8 different battles in the space of 2-3 hours, at different corners of Molden Heath, IS a problem. That, while an impressive show of organization, allows corps with a small number of players to control too many districts, if they are good enough. This is a problem because corps only rely on the same 20-30 players to fight all their battles. This closes the door to PC to a big part of the playerbase. There is no need to use them since we can always use our best players for every match. And this is also a problem because eventually the best 2-3 corps will control all the map. Bigger clone packs are not going to solve by themselves the problems of PC. For example: Imagine FEC 2.0. If a corp decides to attack using a clone pack, the A team of the current top alliance will fight you/be hired to fight you, and they will probably win since they are the best players in the game. If you use 2 clone packs, the A team of the current top alliance will fight you/be hired to fight you in both battles. If you use 5 clone packs, they will be there for the 5 battles. If you launch 6 clone packs at the same timer, the A team of the current top alliance will defeat you in the first battle of district 1, defeat you on the second battle of district 2, and defeat you on the third battle of district 3. The B team of said alliance is doing the same thing on districts 4, 5 and 6. The attacker would have wasted 480 mill and have nothing to show for it, they would stop playing PC. The top alliance team did nothing wrong. They organized impressively and used the game mechanics. But the end result is the PC map we have now. Bigger clone packs? Sure. But by themselves they solve nothing. PC 1.0 is simply broken beyond repair.

Sir Snugglz Red Star. EoN. 611	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:55:00 - [61] - Quote honestly there's no point right now in coming up with hotfixes if PC 2.0 is around the corner. Since we know nothing about it and what's being changed, we shouldn't try to fix something that hopefully will already be fixed in 2.0. Just wait and see what it is, then come up with possible problems that could occur, and then come up with new hotfix ideas. -Pro AFKing LVL 5 -Luck is just one of my skills -Just because I make flying look easy doesn't mean it is
Spartacus Dust NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 279	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:21:00 - [62] - Quote I could be wrong but the CPM probably wouldn't be asking for community support if they believed CCP would fix it on their own. Twitter @Matthew_Dust Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3261	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:30:00 - [63] - Quote Eugene Killmore wrote: Flyingconejo wrote: @Kain You are missing the real problems PC has. Those problems are passive isk generation and unlimited force projection, that allows a corp to chain fights with the same players all around Molden Heath instantly. Those problems are inherent to PC 1.0 design. You can make all the small patches and fixes you want, but the current PC situation wont change because PC 1.0 is broken at its core. Even if DNS breaks after fanfest, Molden Heath will always be dominated by the 4-5 top corps of the moment. Opening more districts would solve nothing. Those corps would have just double the districts they have now, with double the isk. In my opinion, wasting development resources in PC 1.0 would be a mistake, because it is unfixable. Just focus in PC 2.0 and pray they don't screw it up. Also, I have a question. Are your proposals coming from Kain the CPM or from Kain the player? Because, honestly, some of your proposals seem to be made by the player. Making the transfer of districts easier, or making easier the use of mercenary eve pilots, are things that would be of benefit to a very small part of the playerbase. As Kain the player, it is legit for you to push for changes that benefit your game goals. But as CPM, I would prefer you to push CCP to dedicate the development resources they have to things that would make the game better for the entire playerbase, instead of 1%. There is nothing wrong if you are pushing for these changes as Kain the player, but you should make it clear in the OP. So the problem is better players can beat crappy players? Thats every fps ever made. Step 1 of fixing pc is making clone packs a option for those without districts. Cus right now its impossible to compete in pc without districts. I don't think anyone wants easy mode. But the balance of experience and skill of those still involved in PC vs the rest of Dust is off the charts. I continue to see proposals that still favor small elite groups and I truly don't understand how anyone expects PC to flourish without an exponential increase in participation from the playerbase. If the mechanics need to be more harsh then tweak the mechanics, but I'd rather see bumper rails on the lanes for a while to boost participation. Something has to be done to water down the overwhelming amount of talent at the top. If that means cheap clone packs to allow the a Dust community to take their shots at the big boys over and over then so be it. Perhaps I'm off base, but I think step one is making PC more attainable and playable sooner. For example Corp A is new and has 16 players online, they should be able to buy a clone pack and participate in a battle within the hour. If Corp A is smart they'll hit someone with stacked timers to be able to deal with the B or C team. Not 24-48 hours when they only have 5 guys on and they'll be facing 16 dudes with 8+ KDRs for the month. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
Captain Spiff 514 Bacon And Tacos 1	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:42:00 - [64] - Quote Flyingconejo wrote: @Kain You are missing the real problems PC has. Those problems are passive isk generation and unlimited force projection, that allows a corp to chain fights with the same players all around Molden Heath instantly. Spot on.
Killar-12 OLDSPICE. Top Men. 2549	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:05:00 - [65] - Quote Since when was taking the good players and taking over stuff wrong? If the players want to leave your corp it blows but it happens. How to Leave PC
Odigos Ellinas Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 60	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:22:00 - [66] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: Since when was taking the good players and taking over stuff wrong? If the players want to leave your corp it blows but it happens. Good players like to get into PC. The only way right now is joining one of the elite corps.This is the main reason the elite corps can maintain theyr lvl and occurs the monthly paychecks. PC is broken thats a fact the results can be seen through thrall the game, pubs, FW and the economy. The endgame should not be joining a elite corp and stomping pubs. It should be PC for all players that have protofitings. This is not a tournament its supposed to be a part of the eve universe. Oh and good players win battles and not all PC.
Spartacus Dust NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 280	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:30:00 - [67] - Quote Players are just stupid and can't adapt and overcome. Everyone had the chance to Join their corp, become a powerful player with influence, and destroy them from the inside, just like one player did to BOB who at the time was the biggest baddest EVE Alliance in the game. People still have a chance to do all that, people just don't know how to attack a corp in everyway possible. One person can change everything. In the meantime stop crying, wait for Fanfest in MAY (next month), see what CCP Rouge has up his sleave. Pray DNS BLACK get's elected to the CSM so we have an EVE player who cares about DUST on it (he's one of two that do the other is Sugar Kyle a pirate in MH). It's called a sandbox universe for a reason, if you have the power to do something you can do it, and no one can say **** except those who have the power to do something about it. Twitter @Matthew_Dust Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.
CHANCEtheChAn 0uter.Heaven 37	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:32:00 - [68] - Quote Don't know if I'm right or not. Or if anything I'm bout to propose can be done on the ps3 (as I think no new patch will install new income or player bases into dust unless it is a patch to switch the game to ps4, where everything CCP does is not "can we do that?", but with the new, 10 YEARS NEWER TECHNOLOGY becomes "When can we do that"?) But being in and out of a few wars and being a mercenary for a few, The problem is that the top 20 players of a CORPORATION gets to play in PC. (20 being your 16 a-team plus your guys you switchin wwhen your A-team players are out) 9 PLAYERS in baseball is a TEAM. 11 PLAYERS in football is a TEAM. 16 PLAYERS in Dust is a TEAM. And yet, CORPORATIONS who go to war with over 300 players in their ranks and can play 40+ PCs a day with only their best 16... I'm sorry but this just doesn't sit well with me. When we think of corporations, we think of big businesses with big pay checks and lots of logistics and a lot of people to run it. And typically, the biggest corporations have the most power and influence. Yet, in Dust, the signal of power and influence is PC essentially, and has time after time been ruled and taken over by corporations with minimum amounts of players. Case in point 0.H., TP, Escrow, IMPs, synergy, AE, Paradox, Nyain San, etc. All corps with under 100, most even under 50 active players that are continually overtaking corps with hundreds of active players that participate in PC. Thus I propose 1.Any person that is not in a corp that a PC has started between (escrow and AE are in a pc against one another and TP shows up for Escrow, TP players are not listed as a starter or defender of the battle), once they (TP) enter the battle, an automatic tax is taken out of said corp with ringers (in this instance escrow), of 1-5 mil isk per merc. If corp isk cannot provide proper tax payment, mercenaries are kicked from game immediately (to prevent emptying corp wallets before PCs) This is to promote the bettering of your own corpmates to fight instead of using petty money for a ringer to continually carry your team in PC over and over against those that don't wish to pay, but would rather use their own players to win. Alliance members should get %50 off merc tax if a player coming in is in their alliance. You will see why this is important next. 2.All dust players are given an timer, either from the time their PC starts or ends, that extends anywhere from 30minutes till 2 hours. Until this timer ends, said individual will not be able to re-enter a PC. A. This will allow a corps best 16 to still play but if an enemy has launched multiple attacks within a few hours span, will now make "A-teamers" sit out a few PCs that now must be filled with either ringers or more hopefully, non A-team players from a corp and Thus puts more emphasis on recruiting players thus gets more players involved with PC thus gets more players on DUST thus gets more income to CCP thus creates more competition as poaching players when you have the best 16 in the game isn't necessary yet if you have say 50 freiken districts you now need the best 100 in the game to defend those districts so the amount of districts you own no longer correlates to how good your team is but how good your CORPORATION is which increases logistics in DUST which increases meta game which turns dust BACK from uprising now and back to uprising in the beginning where spies were everywhere, everyone was your enemy and your friend, and things were just more betta. (Wholly grammar batman) But here's an example : Corp A has 2 districts and 56 players that they are defending with timers 1 hour apart. Timer is setto 50 minutes after PC starts (this is to account for warbarge time).Corp As A team of 16 plays and defends district 1, and then in 50 minutes all go into second PC to defend second district. But wait? Only 16 players total got to play in both PCs. This is okay as 16 players is nearly 1\3 of corporation A total player base. Meaning a lot of their players got to play. Hmmm. The Meta is strong with this one...
CHANCEtheChAn 0uter.Heaven 37	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:34:00 - [69] - Quote To mean no disrespect kane to you or your alliance, but now let's bring your own corp into this conversation Kane as by your own words and AE and everyone else's in the big blue donut that you own as much as you do in Molden Heath to "break PC and DEMAND CCPs attention" , and to "prevent this sort of thing from ever happening again." In doing this I have sought out the single biggest flaw in the big blue donut, and in ignoring this we now know the true intentions of the donut are to farm isk and live on top...OR KANE SPERROW you are really here to fix PC. Escrow Removal and Acquisition has 62 districts and 45 players. For the next few days, furious under appreciated corps that were kicked out of PC conspire to Blitz Escrows 0,1,2,3,4 timers, in which 75% of escrows timers occur. With escrows current roster of elite players, they will only be able to field 15 semi full battles in this time period, of which 62x75%= 47-15=32 battles that cannot be defended by escrow. This MEANS that if merc tax is employed at 2 million per merc (which I believe is quite reasonable) it will cost Escrow 1,024,000,000 ISK in taxes (that are properly applied because Escrow does not have the players to field battles for all of their districts and should have to pay for it as do all other corps) to field full alliance or merc teams to field their 32 other battles. PER DAY. What this means! BOOM! UNLESS a corp has the logistical skills to organize dozens of merc squads and teams a day at different times (which they won't) AND have the isk to pay taxes for all mercs (which most don't), THEN corps no longer will be able to control PC territory outside the extent of the amount of active players AND organization they have. BAM! Corps will be run more like corporations instead of teams of elite players just getting together and smashing the weaker 16. Leadership roles will be extended to players to help manage the chaos instead of small corps at this point only needing a CEO and that's it. This will mean that ALL members of a corp are now useful and none are to be unappreciated because a 7 mil sp logi filling a spot in your PC is better than wasting countless time and a 2 mil tax on top of payment for a merc to fill your battles. SNAP! We all talk about how we want dust and competition to grow, yet we snarf and proto stomp at people not up to skill or sp as us and never recruit them so they feel alienated and quit dust before they can become proper competition. Now EVERYONE is an asset and this will make smaller elite corps that want to hold more districts than 4 or 5 have to begin recruiting, thus making the worker bees work, Dust all of a sudden wakes up. Corps begin recruiting and holding meetings, new players start to get involved. Old players come back to see what the buzz is about, its a win win. MOAR PC. Now that 1 corporation cannot hold 60 districts to themselves, alliances and different corp start coming together to mass attack high district owners, taking districts away and spreading them out amongst the cosmos, also leaving many new problems to arise such as "Do I attack this 13:45 timer and send my A team to flip it? Or do I send my A team to our 14:20 timer do defend it?" You no longer can defend both with the same 16 BC they are within an hour of each other. Now everyone has 4-15 districts that they can affectively defend/pay ringers for and the completion begins to see who can set up their districts the best to own the most. ROAR! No more stacking timers. Nyain San has done this for enough time and exploited this idea for much too long with 63 districts all on the samePC timer. With 124 players and 63 battles in one hour, the most NS could possibly keep after 1 day is 15 districts MAX if all blitzed. No offense to them but stacking is an exploit that they are using and all but them complain about, yet they continue to sit back and farm. NO MORE ALIENATION! Many people have left and quit dust because they are not considered the "A-team" how many times have you gotten teams ready just to have your A team, players A-P (1-16) ready, and players S, V, and X pipe up and say, "Can I play PC? Can I get in? Do you need me?" In which most times your going against the best in Molden Heath so the answer is either "No your not good enough", or " no maybe next time". In which there is no next time. This alienates players and makes them feel under appreciated and leave dust or just turn into a casual "I play dust once a week or so" player. This happened to me personally in both 0uter.Heaven AND D3lta Forc3 , into which d3lta forc3 was dismantled from 1000 players to 100 in less than 2 weeks and 0.H. From 50 to 20 in a week. Hmmm. The Meta is strong with this one...
CHANCEtheChAn 0uter.Heaven 37	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:35:00 - [70] - Quote WE GET BETTER! What many of us don't realize is that PC isn't broken like it used to be where 3 fps is the norm and everything glitches. As of 1.8 PC (for the most part) has become stable. People left DUST because we all realized the best 40 is better than a good 400. That we could make more money off of owning 10 districts than a %10 tax. That we could alienate everyone that isn't as good as us and still win and be successful. And in doing so WE broke dust. We all did. You can blame CCP all you want to for this or that. But when it boils down to it bf4 launched ****** and with a bad build and glitches in their PUB matches, and dust did the same thing, glitchy and bad builds. Yet CCP continually works to fix their mistakes which takes months, and battlefield did the same. And in this time we lose hundreds of players, while battlefield gains tens of thousands. Why? CCP can be blamed, but we all share this blame. We are the ones who stacked timers, we are the ones who locked districts, we are the ones who gave up on PC and then decided to take it all. CCP laid out a foundation and we trolled our d*cks all over it and we broke it, and now dust is dying because of what we have done, and ccps slow attempts at fixing it. Now is the time to reciprocate what we have done and fix it before dust bleeds out. Which could be right after fan fest if things don't change. Bump or quote this with all of your critiques. I know its long, but all good plans are. I don't mean to attend any corporations with this, its just that escrow, NS, and even my own 0.h. Presented meaningful examples for my purposes. This isn't perfect, but its a start. And if you are serious about making DUST and PC better which is your job as CPM you will read and critique this Kain. As a CPM and a player, putting your professional opinion first. Getting more people involved with PC is whats wrong with PC as thousands of players do not get the luxury to enjoy PC as many of us get to everyday. Fix PC, build dust. Build dust, build money. Build money, move to ps4. Move to ps4, possibilities for new weapons, vehicles, maps, gamemodes, features, EvE integration are endless... Hmmm. The Meta is strong with this one...

Spartacus Dust NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 280	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:36:00 - [71] - Quote TL;DR Twitter @Matthew_Dust Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.
Killar-12 OLDSPICE. Top Men. 2549	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:37:00 - [72] - Quote Odigos Ellinas wrote: Killar-12 wrote: Since when was taking the good players and taking over stuff wrong? If the players want to leave your corp it blows but it happens. Good players like to get into PC. The only way right now is joining one of the elite corps.This is the main reason the elite corps can maintain theyr lvl and occurs the monthly paychecks. PC is broken thats a fact the results can be seen through thrall the game, pubs, FW and the economy. The endgame should not be joining a elite corp and stomping pubs. It should be PC for all players that have protofitings. This is not a tournament its supposed to be a part of the eve universe. Oh and good players win battles and not all PC. I do hate the no alt rule isn't unilaterally enforced but, I'll say this you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, players are people too. The Econ's the big problem with this I'd say devaluing ISK and Assets that can currently be purchased for ISK/ISK+LP via increasing ISK payouts in battles would be the best step personally it hits everyone but it helps New Guys Chances of EVE ISK transferred down to DUST Give people in the Mid-Tier Pubs, Add CBs if you want to give a place for people to be competitive who aren't in PC FW isn't too badly ****** 1337 corps ought to have opportunities to make them wanting to do things other than pubs. How to Leave PC
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3218	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:38:00 - [73] - Quote I'm sorry but any idea to limit freedom of association artificially control relationships between Dusters is just silly. Also arbitrarily forcing a player to not play as much PC as they want is bad design and bad game mechanics. Again the idea is to improve planetary conquest for everyone not have arbitrary ideas that you feel can counter players playing the game how they choose to. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Odigos Ellinas Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 60	Posted - 2014.04.07 01:32:00 - [74] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Also arbitrarily forcing a player to not play as much PC as they want is bad design and bad game mechanics. And i don't see how your Proposition are helping to fix this.
Leither Yiltron Ahrendee Mercenaries 854	Posted - 2014.04.07 03:17:00 - [75] - Quote So I'd like to preface the response with saying that my objective here is to find the most tolerable place we can get PC1.0 with minimal resources. That seems to be Kane's approach as well. It's pretty obvious by this point that many of the core PC mechanics conspire to create a hostile environment...and the only way that's getting fixed is by redoing PC. Since that's NOT what we're discussing here, these are the things I'm keeping in mind while responding: 1. There's really no hope of a hotfix making ownership of land a relevant, fun, or engaging metagame. That means there's no reason to talk in circles about how to make an environment where big wars and cool dynamics flourish with a hotfix. Simply put, it's more reasonable to give up on this entirely and start from there. 2. Given that lack of background changes, it's unreasonable to expect that any hotfix-able changes can make it common for newer or less elite teams than the current ones to hold land. That they can't at the moment is caused by the mechanics of PC1.0, not just the numbers. 3. The primary objective with PC1.0 then is to put it in a state where a lot more players have the opportunity to engage in frequent, coordinated, competitive fights without facing a gigantic barrier to entry. On the flip side it's a careful balance not to make the barrier too low. If that happens then we'll be left with an equally dead Molden Heath because the current owners will spam out newcomers and current participants alike with bogus attacks. Okay, on to the response: Kain Spero wrote: Turn off clone auto sale or reduced passive clone sales to 60k and increase biomass from battle to 160k Make it where you only get ISK for clones killed in battle, which will tie up some loose ends potential locking for profit. I'd like to recommend this go a step farther and recommend flat out making ANY clone sales off districts 0 ISK and leave the biomass value at 100k. It has taken me a long time to come to this conclusion, but I'm resolved that it would be for the best in making PC1.0 modestly tolerable. A note on 100k: really nice proto suits cost around 200k on the high end. As the winner of a match you will receive 200k/death minimum as long as your team has an average 1.0(clone)KDR. Usually it's a good bit more, 100k's a good sweet spot. Without passive ISK generation the three primary reasons to own districts are (A) bragging rights and (B) free clones (C) choosing battle times. Current landowners would still have an incentive to own districts because: The clones cost 0ISK/clone rather than 110k/clone The defenders choose the time of the battle They make money whenever they win a defense This would also close the pathetically massive low-risk ISK faucet that PC1.0 has become. Yes, there's plenty of opportunity for attacking your own districts to extract ISK, but this would require MORE labor than locking or the current method of doing nothing. Additionally even if you did lock your own districts with clone moves (clone packs are completely unsustainable) you'd make a whole lot less than you do now. It simply wouldn't be worth it. The second bullet point quoted is a good suggestion in general. It opens up a few more harassment opportunities involving no-show battles, but it would cement attacking your own districts as an economic impossibility. In general these changes would make PC1.0 a hilarious ISK-sink if you really wanted to treat it as a war ground. The meta would inevitably involve spending huge pools of ISK on spamming attacks, but that's fine. After all, what are going to do with the districts after you get them? Kain Spero wrote: Implement a district transfer function so that a corporation doesn't have to use a clone pack to get into PC and also open up possibilities in terms of how conflicts are resolved outside of battle. Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even. To the first, yes. To the second, a bit of discussion. In general mitigating some of the risk factors for the losers in PC is a rather critical piece of encouraging fights. Liquidating loot sounds like it would take a goodly amount of dev time to implement though. I'm more open to something along the lines of a fixed multiplier of the winner's pool paying out to the losers. In effect that makes it cheaper to play, but you still have to lose clones to get the refund. Say around 1/4th of the winner's pool (I'm throwing a number out). As the loser you're going to make 50k/death at a 1.0KDR in this system. To be clear, the winner would still get the full pool. Kain Spero wrote: Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. For the clone pack sizes and prices, I'd recommend a number in the window from 150-200. Instead of 400k/clone (80m/200 clones) the cost needs to be much lower. I'd say around 135k/clone at least. Otherwise it's just completely unsustainable. Most players by themselves could make 400k (high balling, not profit but pure ISK) in the span of 2 pub matches. If a 16 man team needed to buy 10 clones for each player at the 400k rate, it would take each guy all the ISK from 20 matches to buy them. Just for the pleasure of one PC game with whatever likelihood of losing! Have a pony
Leither Yiltron Ahrendee Mercenaries 854	Posted - 2014.04.07 03:33:00 - [76] - Quote These I don't like: Kain Spero wrote: Make clone moves a minimum of 200 clones so that a district is weakened when an attack is launched and help minimize the snowball effect of owning many many districts. I get that this is an attempt to prevent the recurrence of "spam the clones!" tactics in "big" wars, but I've given up on PC1.0 supporting meaningful wars anyways. With that in mind, upping the minimum clone move hurts players with fewer districts to their name because they have more to lose (as a percentage of holdings) if their district becomes vulnerable. The only thing that's going to stop the current landowners from taking land that they want is a lack of incentive. Kain Spero wrote: Explore the idea of opening another Region of space in Dust 514 Planetary Conquest to spur activity, but only if the issues with passive ISK are addressed. I think that more land is a detriment in two ways. 1. The PC playing community has dwindled so far that Molden Heath barely has a handful of active corps. Even if that number improved, the background mechanics of PC still emphasize and allow for small core teams to hold vast swathes of territory with low risk. Until MH seems active there's no reason to open up more districts that will just stagnate. 2. Since we're anticipating an eventual rework of PC anyways, opening up more territory means more clean up when a proper system gets introduced. Even worse it might make CCP feel obligated to experiment with PC2.0 more widely (geographically) than necessary. Kain Spero wrote: Add the ability for any Eve pilot to connect to a district and fire for either team. This would allow freedom of association when it comes to alliance membership and allow Dust matches to be content for all of New Eden. The Eve-Dust integration is crap, and it's going to remain crap until PC2.0. Molden Heath isn't suddenly going to become a more desirable place to be in Eve with a change like this, so you'd expect the same old guys who are already out here to be the only ones engaged with something like this. Honestly it'd be most likely to bolster the influence of the current land-owning party and little else. That isn't accusatory, mind. I get that we'd all like to see SOME improvement to the Dust-Eve link in PC, but this isn't it. Have a pony
CHANCEtheChAn 0uter.Heaven 39	Posted - 2014.04.07 03:59:00 - [77] - Quote [quote=Kain spero Im sorry but any idea to limit freedom of association artificially control relationships between Dusters is just silly. Also arbitrarily forcing a player to not play as much PC as they want is bad design and bad game mechanics. Again the idea is to improve planetary conquest for everyone not have arbitrary ideas that you feel can counter players playing the game how they choose to.[/quote] And yet simple PC and handheld free to play games have been using the "you can't play as much as you want" design for decades. And that is why people stack money into such games. PLENTY of the MMOs on any device you find now are "do whatever you want up to a certain point" games. Such as build up your army a little and you can attack 10 other armies. Good now that you've attacked, you need to wait 10 minutes for one attack turn, and can accumulate up to 15. Want to attack now? Pay $1.00 for 15 immediate attack turns. This has been the business model of all free to plays since windows 98, and yet you say to me that every game like this since the beginning has been wrong? And yet many of these have hundreds of thousands of daily players. So you know **** these hundreds of thousands of people right? What do the games they play know about keeping them around? by the way and I hear hundreds of ideas daily on how to fix dust and PC and you aren't "fixing" anything by making clone packs cheaper, or having more clones in them, if its still only gonna be the same 16 using those clones packs all damn day everyday while everyone else rots in pub matches all day. "Again the idea is to improve planetary conquest for Everyone" And yet all these ideas that are being put in the air is STILL for the top 16 of every corp to compete, and no one else. You all do PC so you are all biased. I am a A-teamer, have been since Chromosome, and so I had to take a step back onto my brothers 7 mil sp apt account to fully understand and not be biased towards this argument. I'm fairly new to dust, not many friends, no corp. Go into 5 pubs, 3 amb 1 skirm and 1 Dom by myself. In ambush my team gets raided first by proto Nyain San, Proto AE Kallente and Marauder, and then by Proto Ahrendee. Lost all 3 battles 58 clones to 180. Total Only guy on my team to not go even in all 3. Dom 26-6 with a loss. Skirm 31-8 with a loss. All in basic gear. Okay let's join a corp to help me so I can squad up with people. I want to get into a PC corp so I can train for this new thing I've heard of called PC. Send an application to Nyain San. Denied. Send an application to AE. Denied Send an application to escrow. Denied. Oh but those are pretty much the only PC corps I see. Oh wait onslaught inc, they have a district! Alright guys I'm ready for PC! "Sorry we already have our 16". But I wanna play... " You can't play you don't have enough sp." Even though at this point I'm doing better than their full proto A reamers in pubs. So theoretically if you had 2 PCs at the same time could I play PC? "No lol, we would put in a few B teamers and pay mercs to fill the rest of the spots." So when will I have enough SP to get into PC? "WELL, drop a few months of sp with boosters and we will see." Bam, boom done, a few months of playtime just to get into end-game? This isn't an MMORPG. I don't see any PvE, I don't see any NPCs to talk to. I don't see any dungeons or anything really, I just see months of pub training JUST to build up the sp to afford a proto suit and proto gear just to be PC ready. And that's not counting the experience and knowledge I don't have of pc and current PC A teamers do. So psshhhhh, I'm gone bro see ya. And dust loses another player. Until you find a potential way for non A teamers to consistently be viably looked at for PC, everyone who is NOT A team will eventually leave dust at the expectancy to never see the light of PC. In my proposal, I give you both. A teamers can still play all the PCs, just set your districts to 1 in every 23 eve timer and only have 23 districts. (Seems like a pretty damn reasonable number of districts) Also, if you wish to take more than 23 effectively, and stack timers reliably without having to pay taxes for ringers, you allow in B teams or C teams into your corps allowing those players to grow with you, allowing your corporation to grow, allowing Dust to grow. Give me a downside to this or two and I will stop my brain from flowing. Hmmm. The Meta is strong with this one...
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3219	Posted - 2014.04.07 11:24:00 - [78] - Quote Egypt Musk wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. This is a sure fire way to bankrupt smaller corps and and keep PC stagnant as it is. One should not be penalized for wanting to attack you should be able to purchase attack clones by number at the price of 100k -150k per clone up to as many that are on the district being attacked The sure fire way to bankrupt small corps is to leave the 120 clones at 36 million ISK in place. The current mass attacks being planed by various groups will fail miserably. Also, you make clone pack clones as cheap as district clones not even landholders would ever use their districts. For there to be balance clone packs have to have a drawback either in price or clone cost. Not to mention a price that low on clone pack clones would just end a new era of locking.. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3219	Posted - 2014.04.07 12:57:00 - [79] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: To the first, yes. To the second, a bit of discussion. In general mitigating some of the risk factors for the losers in PC is a rather critical piece of encouraging fights. Liquidating loot sounds like it would take a goodly amount of dev time to implement though. I'm more open to something along the lines of a fixed multiplier of the winner's pool paying out to the losers. In effect that makes it cheaper to play, but you still have to lose clones to get the refund. Say around 1/4th of the winner's pool (I'm throwing a number out). As the loser you're going to make 50k/death at a 1.0KDR in this system. To be clear, the winner would still get the full pool. That's a really good point. The loot idea has been something that has been bugging me for a while, but I think this idea is infinitely better considering the potential Dev time needed. Especially if this could be hotfixed. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Bear D'Grassi Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 68	Posted - 2014.04.07 12:59:00 - [80] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: Good ideas, 200 clone Clone Packs would truly make battles a lot more exciting. I would know cause we've been fighting you guys and 120 clones goes away pretty fast lol +1 120 Clones it utter crap and a waste of ISK. It has to get changed. Couldn't agree more. Not even if I tried my absolute hardest. Profile damping on my Gallente scout is so good I can't even find it to put it on!

Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3288	Posted - 2014.04.07 13:54:00 - [81] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Egypt Musk wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece. This is a sure fire way to bankrupt smaller corps and and keep PC stagnant as it is. One should not be penalized for wanting to attack you should be able to purchase attack clones by number at the price of 100k -150k per clone up to as many that are on the district being attacked I think long term the price is good, but it HAS to be cheaper to involve corps that have yet to or no longer participate in PC for some period of time upon release. The only way the clone pack cost structure is viable long term (particularly if you go to 200x packs) is to find a way for corps to earn ISK outside tax grinds in pubs. FW and PC are huge drains on ISK...the pubs alone can't keep up with that ISK sink and the passive ISK generation of current district owners. If you had PVE that could be used for corp contracts...that might be something. Not sure what the answer its but the ISK balance is maybe the most ugly thing going in PC in the long term. You are touching on a major issue that I believe has led to the erosion of squad/team play in Dust. This mythical need for the ISK sink has turned a lot of Dust players into accountants instead of warriors. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
kiarbanor S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance 367	Posted - 2014.04.07 14:41:00 - [82] - Quote Please excuse the wall of text you may or may not read, but I think these suggestions are easy and can be implemented in hot fixes: First, there has to be a complete wipe of Molden Heath. Sorry, Big Blue Donut, but if we want any type of PC to work, we have to start with a fresh slate. Once this wipe happens, we have another land grab; however, every corporation that wants a district can only buy one during this period of time. After the district is selected, the corporation has to make four decisions: (1).When do you want your district to be open to attack? a.You have to select a two hour window b.You have to select three days that this window is open c.Once this is established, every district owned by this particular corporation has the same two hour window and the same days d.You can change this at any point for $$$$ (2).What mode do you want this district to be? a.You can select Skirm, Dom, or Ambush b.You can change this at any point for $$$$ c.Every district owned by the corp can have a different mode (3).What limit do you want to set for mercs? a.You can establish a district for 6+ mercs, which means that the defending force only has to provide 6 players. b.If you select anything less than 16, the attacking force can choose to bring +1 to the battle; for instance, IGÇÖm attacking a district that is set at 8. The defending force can have a max of 8 players defend, but I can bring 9, if I want. (4).Is this your GÇ£home baseGÇ¥? a.If you decide this district is your home base, you label it as such b.Once the district is labeled as home base, it opens certain abilities; for example, you can have more than one purchased structure on the district c.You can only have one home base at a time I wanted to outline these easy fixes before discussing why I think they will bring about quick and positive change to PC. By selecting the two hour window and three days for this window to be openGÇöwith all districts owned by the same corp having the same window/daysGÇöthis stops corps with small (elite) mercs to own too much land. The key is that you no longer have 24 hoursGÇÖ notice of attack. If your district is online, you can be attacked with only 5 minutesGÇÖ notice. Selecting a mode will increase tactics and overall enjoyment, in my opinion. If you want victory or defeat to be quick and painless, select Ambush. We should have that option as district owners. I think this selection can be by districts owned, too. So, every district that we own can be a different mode. The limit of mercs adds another strategic piece to the PC puzzle, but more than anything, it allows small corps to enter PC and compete. What IGÇÖve found is that itGÇÖs extremely hard to get 16 PC guys into a corporation unless youGÇÖre willing to accept anyone at the possible detriment to your corpGÇÖs values. LetGÇÖs allow small corps to remain true to their values and still be competitive. I also love the +1 idea here because that will stop these GÇ£eliteGÇ¥ corps from setting all their districts to 6 mercs, in order to spread their small numbers out. The home base idea is crucial because it should be very hard to completely kick any corp out of PC. If I stack a couple production facilities on my home base (which will cost $$$$), I will have a garrison that can withstand multiple attacks in the 2 hour window. Also, with these large garrisons, epic battles will unfold that last well beyond the 2 hour window because I would keep the ability to re-attack as long as you have more than 200 clones. I think we should promote as much GÇ£corp onlyGÇ¥ fights as possible, too. I like alliances; I like the idea behind them. But they should never take the place of having all the same corp tags on the scoreboard. In order to promote this loyalty, I say that if you attack or defend with only people from your corp, you get a 10-20% bonus in clone count. If you bring in just one person without your corp tags, you simply donGÇÖt get this bonus. As for getting EvE more integratedGÇöin a quick fixGÇöI say we look at this corp bonus, too. If you have a ship with your corp tags in space, able to drop orbitals, you should see a decrease in 25% of the timer between OBs. Until someone can figure out something different, I think ISK should be generated by each district. The problem right now is that itGÇÖs too easy for a corp of 20 mercs to own 40 districts and simply sit on the isk. With the quick changes I detailed above, 20 mercs wonGÇÖt be able to properly defend 40 districts that are online 2 hours over three days.
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2017	Posted - 2014.04.07 14:42:00 - [83] - Quote Couple of thoughts here. Owning land should be profitable, which means passive isk needs to be part of it. The big selling point for Dust is that you'll fight to keep something you built. Without some means of earning a profit from owning land, why do you want to take it in the first place? If the answer is prestige and bragging rights then the battles are as meaningful as a Quake deathmatch. That idea turns owning land into glorified pub matches. I don't want to take control of territory so I can pound my chest and yell about how great we are. I want to take it because that particular piece of territory provides a strategic and fiscal advantage - something it needs to do on both the Dust and Eve sides. Now, my main point. Reading through this thread the biggest problem seems to be that a very tiny number of players can control massive territories and collect all that isk. It seems to me that the biggest issue is that Dust mercs don't exist in New Eden, but on some ethereal plane that lets us teleport anywhere. This is a big problem that the Dust team needs to figure out a design for in general so that we feel like we actually exist in New Eden, but in PC it would drastically change the strategic landscape. For example, lets say that your corp owns districts in MH. What I propose, until a proper transportation method is created, is that if you want to participate in PC that you have to select one of your districts as your home base. When you do this, your local changes to that system. You can change your home once a day (or two, or whatever), and another corp can invite you to base out of their district. If a battle occurs anywhere in that system, or a neighboring one no problem...you can deploy into that battle. If you're on a research lab SI, you can go one or two jumps further. This one simple change would drastically increase the opportunity for players to participate in PC. You wouldn't be able to have a handful of guys run around and throw piles of ringers into battles all over the place. You could still use ringers, but you'd have to do more than press a couple buttons and it would commit the ringer to your location for a while meaning they can't fight elsewhere. Some kind of similar treatment would need to happen with clone packs. Letting them only attack within a certain distance of Genolution stations, or something like that. It would be ridiculously cool if something like this was part of Dust. We'd have news reports about the opening of a second front in a war, etc. PC 1.0 was a science experiment and it's been a big fail. I think the whole thing really needs to be scrapped and replaced with something better, but making your location matter would go a long way toward making the system we have now actually interesting.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 1866	Posted - 2014.04.07 14:47:00 - [84] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: Couple of thoughts here. Owning land should be profitable, which means passive isk needs to be part of it. This isn't true. It should, in fact, cost money to hold a district. However, active combat in PC should be extremely profitable. So your income comes from actively using the district, either via attacking or defending and winning. This encourages people to fight instead of sitting on what they have. Therefore, you want to massively increase the payout in PC for clones lost in combat, while massively nerfing the payout of excess clones generated from holding the district (or eliminating it entirely). Then you have more reason to fight than to blue up. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Evolution-7 The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 431	Posted - 2014.04.07 14:47:00 - [85] - Quote Sir Snugglz wrote: Instead of opening up another region why not unlock more planets??? only 1 out of 10 or so planets per system are being used... But snugglz, CCP will have to deliver the promise they made ages ago, real lava and ice/gas planets. Not just some generic mood setting! Veteran Pilot "Fight on and fly on to the last drop of blood and the last drop of fuel, to the last beat of the heart."
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2017	Posted - 2014.04.07 14:59:00 - [86] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: Couple of thoughts here. Owning land should be profitable, which means passive isk needs to be part of it. This isn't true. It should, in fact, cost money to hold a district. However, active combat in PC should be extremely profitable. So your income comes from actively using the district, either via attacking or defending and winning. This encourages people to fight instead of sitting on what they have. Therefore, you want to massively increase the payout in PC for clones lost in combat, while massively nerfing the payout of excess clones generated from holding the district (or eliminating it entirely). Then you have more reason to fight than to blue up. Fighting as the only income source makes it a glorified pub match, and it only works when mercs are gods who can be everywhere at once. If you were smart and captured territory in such a way that you had districts that were difficult to attack, you should receive some kind of profit from those districts. The fact of the matter is that taking districts is a HUGE investment and I shouldn't have to hope for people to attack me and us to win in order to see a return on that investment. That would make it a bad investment, since there is no guaranteed date for when you'll go into the black. The only way this would work is if there was a taxable form of PVE available on the districts. This could become the kind of timerless PC fight so many people have been begging for. ie: people are roaming around on a district hunting drones and suddenly, bam...ambushed! No risk of losing your land while you're asleep, but the attackers could do a small amount of damage and make some isk out of it.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3288	Posted - 2014.04.07 15:10:00 - [87] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: Couple of thoughts here. Owning land should be profitable, which means passive isk needs to be part of it. This isn't true. It should, in fact, cost money to hold a district. However, active combat in PC should be extremely profitable. So your income comes from actively using the district, either via attacking or defending and winning. This encourages people to fight instead of sitting on what they have. Therefore, you want to massively increase the payout in PC for clones lost in combat, while massively nerfing the payout of excess clones generated from holding the district (or eliminating it entirely). Then you have more reason to fight than to blue up. Fighting as the only income source makes it a glorified pub match, and it only works when mercs are gods who can be everywhere at once. If you were smart and captured territory in such a way that you had districts that were difficult to attack, you should receive some kind of profit from those districts. The fact of the matter is that taking districts is a HUGE investment and I shouldn't have to hope for people to attack me and us to win in order to see a return on that investment. That would make it a bad investment, since there is no guaranteed date for when you'll go into the black. The only way this would work is if there was a taxable form of PVE available on the districts. This could become the kind of timerless PC fight so many people have been begging for. ie: people are roaming around on a district hunting drones and suddenly, bam...ambushed! No risk of losing your land while you're asleep, but the attackers could do a small amount of damage and make some isk out of it. Perhaps passive ISK and bonuses can be added at a time when more people are participating. Right now there are so few participating that 5 or 6 A teams have completely taken over MH. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
Klivve Cussler S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance 228	Posted - 2014.04.07 16:26:00 - [88] - Quote I have only participated in a few matches of PC, but I thought that allowing a corp that holds a district to attack via clone packs kind of broke the system right off the bat. You could see the game theory behind the PC battle system - it had a kind of Risk'esque feel to it - and once they changed the clone pack purchase rules (which they did just a couple of days before PC launched by player demand) all of their calculations and simulations went out the window. In general, you want to keep the system dynamic and fluid, but not frustrating, so that means: 1. There's enough territory 2. It should be easy to hold a small number of districts 3. The more districts you hold, the more vulnerable they become. (this happens in eve by virtue of upkeep payments and the fact that attacks can come at any time. 4. Districts can be a positive revenue if utilized, and a negative revenue (ie a cost) if not. 5. Some districts are worth more than others. 1. Right now, there's not enough territory, so I agree we need to open it up. 2-5 need an economy of some sort. Maybe a rental cost determined by the number of districts you hold. Maybe a PI structure that makes isk, at the expense of making clones. I disagree that PC is Dust's endgame. But I also disagree that Eve's sov battles are its endgame. No doubt it's the "Big Leagues", but endgame implies that everyone is headed there. I'm content with my quickmatches and the occassional FW fight. Heck, most of the time, I don't even squad up. (I know the advantages, but I get called away from the PS3 sometimes, and I hate to abbandon a squad). But even though I don't play in PC, I don't think it should be possible to sweep all the districts. The system should either make the cost of doiing so outweigh the advantages, or make some districts "poor cousins" not worth of the big boys (and thus giving the little guys a way in.)
Laiod Klan Providence Guard Templis CALSF 7	Posted - 2014.04.07 16:39:00 - [89] - Quote What we need is a whole new system for PC, the current system is a bad location for anything really. America is becoming a police state. I traverse the universe in a warp field. http://en.spaceengine.org/
Draco Cerberus BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 851	Posted - 2014.04.07 18:16:00 - [90] - Quote The problem with PC battles is that there is absolutely ZERO benefit for Eve players to be part of PC other than helping the corp. Take the districts and make them valuable, add Eve to Dust and vice versa transfers available and let people fight over them, add more districts. For all of "two lines of code" as per Hilmar during the last fanfest we could have more districts. LogiGod earns his pips

smartlayer What The French Red Whines. 80	Posted - 2014.04.07 18:43:00 - [91] - Quote GÇó Forbidding any CPM member to build a business within DUST514, he's of course allowed to play or even to be CEO of a corporation That to avoid possible : conflIt of interest, insider trading, abuse of power, influence peddling A CSM is here to represent the community and working for the interest of the community and not himself or the community who elected him (to some extend....)
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3291	Posted - 2014.04.07 19:20:00 - [92] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: The problem with PC battles is that there is absolutely ZERO benefit for Eve players to be part of PC other than helping the corp. Take the districts and make them valuable, add Eve to Dust and vice versa transfers available and let people fight over them, add more districts. For all of "two lines of code" as per Hilmar during the last fanfest we could have more districts. Edit: Not just PC district transfers but asset transfers, isk transfers and a market to sell goods...the game is broken without any of this stuff, there is a serious problem stop trying to hotfix the stuff that needs real coding time. Those fuel bonuses are great if you have a POS in system, but I'd be surprised if there is a single corp in Dust/Eve that is taking advantage of it. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
Spartacus Dust NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 289	Posted - 2014.04.07 19:21:00 - [93] - Quote CEO of a corporation, a corporation is a business, it's job is to make isk to use towards a common goal. Anyone could have done what Kane did, no one did it though. Twitter @Matthew_Dust Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.
Spartacus Dust NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 289	Posted - 2014.04.07 19:23:00 - [94] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: The problem with PC battles is that there is absolutely ZERO benefit for Eve players to be part of PC other than helping the corp. Take the districts and make them valuable, add Eve to Dust and vice versa transfers available and let people fight over them, add more districts. For all of "two lines of code" as per Hilmar during the last fanfest we could have more districts. Edit: Not just PC district transfers but asset transfers, isk transfers and a market to sell goods...the game is broken without any of this stuff, there is a serious problem stop trying to hotfix the stuff that needs real coding time. Those fuel bonuses are great if you have a POS in system, but I'd be surprised if there is a single corp in Dust/Eve that is taking advantage of it. SVER Prime had a pos with a moon mining thing, but the moon couldn't be mined, so it was useless, I have no idea why the never put guns on it and used it as a staging point and didn't have gta move their entire alliance into that system... ohwell. Twitter @Matthew_Dust Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1649	Posted - 2014.04.07 19:28:00 - [95] - Quote No passive ISK Multiple clone pack prices and sizes. No passive ISK No passive ISK You have to work the land to profit from it. Whether that means PVE or simply tying income soley to fighting. Supporter of tiericide, EVE interaction, and a proper NPE SoonGäó514 "No blue tags make Tallen go crazy.
Klivve Cussler S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance 229	Posted - 2014.04.07 19:35:00 - [96] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: The problem with PC battles is that there is absolutely ZERO benefit for Eve players to be part of PC other than helping the corp. Take the districts and make them valuable, add Eve to Dust and vice versa transfers available and let people fight over them, add more districts. For all of "two lines of code" as per Hilmar during the last fanfest we could have more districts. Edit: Not just PC district transfers but asset transfers, isk transfers and a market to sell goods...the game is broken without any of this stuff, there is a serious problem stop trying to hotfix the stuff that needs real coding time. It's weird, but there is no way to see who owns a district in Eve. Nothing on the Map, sov dialog, or Planetary view. Nothing. I don't know why there isn't a bigger footprint. Sure, the Eve guys will mostly ignore it for now, but for those players that have an interest, at least they could check it out.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3291	Posted - 2014.04.07 19:36:00 - [97] - Quote Spartacus Dust wrote: CEO of a corporation, a corporation is a business, it's job is to make isk to use towards a common goal. Anyone could have done what Kane did, no one did it though. Before you go patting them on the back too hard, it took nearly a year for the PC community to largely stop participating for this to happen. How hard do you think it was to convince FA, RND, AE, and NS to join up with Kain and Co when they were the only ones really fighting each other? "Hey dudes, why spend ISK fighting each other when we can print ISK?" You think that is some kind of diplomatic accomplishment? Eon did it when there was a lot going on. Back then you had: Synergy Gaming Red Star Giant Generals Team Players RND Ill Omens Pure Innocence forgetting others Outside of Eon you had: Outer Heaven Hellstorm KEQ Southern Legion Seraphim What the French Pro Hic and many others I conservatively guessed in another thread that we had (prior to the donut) 1/10th of the participation in PC that we had nearly a year ago. This is largely the reason we started locking. There was no strategy in empire building, it was who hired the best set of ringers the quickest. The donut is simply an ISK printing scheme that is taking advantage of a dead game mode. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3291	Posted - 2014.04.07 19:37:00 - [98] - Quote Tallen Ellecon wrote: No passive ISK Multiple clone pack prices and sizes. No passive ISK No passive ISK You have to work the land to profit from it. Whether that means PVE or simply tying income soley to fighting. Did you check out Pokey's thread? That is what we all need to get behind ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Dirt Nap Squad. 1707	Posted - 2014.04.07 19:59:00 - [99] - Quote 0.0 Planets need to start controlling one or Two key elements in POS fuel manufacturing from the Planetary Infrastructure Mechanic in EVE online. Sure, High Security Space and Low security space can produce every other type of Planetary Infrastructure material... But a couple of the more rare types should be moved to 0.0 production only.And then the item production be influenced and or controlled by the DUST 514 world. Many people under estimate POS fuel need in the game of EVE online... or even the significance of fuel for POS's running all moon and tech 2 production in EVE online let alone entire Alliances, worm hole endeavors etc.. With DUST Mercenaries being able to have a direct impact on a key component to EVE's daily activities, We would then by default become a vital part to EVE's operation and every day. And be worth an investment from even the smaller entities to then get a district or work on getting a planet in NPC 0.0 space... and maybe be a source or a cause for EVE side content and expansion.
Killar-12 OLDSPICE. Top Men. 2553	Posted - 2014.04.08 02:13:00 - [100] - Quote Bethhy wrote: 0.0 Planets need to start controlling one or Two key elements in POS fuel manufacturing from the Planetary Infrastructure Mechanic in EVE online. Sure, High Security Space and Low security space can produce every other type of Planetary Infrastructure material... But a couple of the more rare types should be moved to 0.0 production only.And then the item production be influenced and or controlled by the DUST 514 world. Many people under estimate POS fuel need in the game of EVE online... or even the significance of fuel for POS's running all moon and tech 2 production in EVE online let alone entire Alliances, worm hole endeavors etc.. With DUST Mercenaries being able to have a direct impact on a key component to EVE's daily activities, We would then by default become a vital part to EVE's operation and every day. And be worth an investment from even the smaller entities to then get a district or work on getting a planet in NPC 0.0 space... and maybe be a source or a cause for EVE side content and expansion. Dude, Incarna would look like a picnic... How to Leave PC

Klivve Cussler S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance 233	Posted - 2014.04.08 04:24:00 - [101] - Quote Water. All terrestrial planets have it, to some degree. There could be a water extraction outpost that mines it. It's a component of coolant, which fuels POSes. Each district could produce a different amount using the resource distribution mapping already in place. The trouble is selling it. I propose a market located on the planetary customs house orbiting the planet. This gives Ccp a chance to test out cross game transactions, with a low risk of market instability.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 1233	Posted - 2014.04.08 06:31:00 - [102] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: neolutumus wrote: I am just going to leave this here and there and everywhere In this discussion I'm looking for simple solutions that can be primarily hotfixes. Holding multiple districts could produce multiple timers for each district. So if I hold 3districts I would potentially have to fight 9battles to keep them safe. Crush them
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2768	Posted - 2014.04.08 07:34:00 - [103] - Quote Keep it simple, people. Adding resources and mining and PVE and all that sort of stuff is NOT hotfixable. I still say what I was saying even before PC launched - no clone packs for those with land. Sure, they'll work around it with alt corps but that's a lot of work and effort and I'd much rather they have to do that than just be given free reign like they do now. It really is the keystone that would have stopped this mess from becoming the ugly monster it is. And passive isk/auto-clone-sale has got to go. Completely. Not just a reduction. Just stop it. If your district is full, production stops. We can't sell anything in this game at all but people with land suddenly get to sell clones? Cheers for giving a select few a market CCP - what about everyone and everything else? I have excess heavy suits I'll never use - do they just get sold? No. In the future there can be other ways to profit/benefit from districts but until then, it should just be about providing more opportunities for fun. We don't need 'incentives' to play PC - there's nothing else to do! PC is the only place you can go to be sure of having good fights instead of the one-sided slaughterhouses that are pubs and FW. These should be two very easy very hotfixable solutions that would make MH far more playable for the greater population of Dust, though obviously don't go anywhere near 'fixing' it. For the few months we might have before PC2.0 hits, it will do the job and lessen at least a little the stranglehold of the big blue donut. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2151	Posted - 2014.04.08 08:01:00 - [104] - Quote Something has to be done in the short term to make attacking and winning the most profitable action. While at the same time, attacking is a high risk action, defenders should have the upper hand. You should be able to whittle down a districts capacity (read: blob a district) by launching several attacks at the risk of losing ISK. War costs money. It does not gain you money. Alt#1 Scout gk.0 - ScR, CR, RR, PLC, SMG Alt#2 Madrugar - Ion Cannon Alt#3 Commando gk.0 - Shotgun, AR
Thalen Shadow S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance 19	Posted - 2014.04.08 12:19:00 - [105] - Quote Ultimately the big blue donut was pretty much always going to be the outcome as long as it was more profitable for a district owner to not fight. To that end you need to make the actual fights more rewarding (regardless of the specific mechanic to do so) and give Landowners other benefits that don't convert directly into ISK. The various player owned structures (POS, POCO, Sov Towers) within eve do not generate isk directly but do allow the holding corporation to improve its isk generation potential. However this all ties into the economy within eve which is lacking within Dust. The changes Spero has suggested may improve that activity within PC but will not come close to fixing it (people have nothing to spend the ISK that have on).
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3227	Posted - 2014.04.08 12:41:00 - [106] - Quote Original points in the OP have been updated to reflect the discussion. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
DaNizzle4shizle Pradox One Proficiency V. 757	Posted - 2014.04.08 12:43:00 - [107] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Original points in the OP have been updated to reflect the discussion. scrub here in deez parts m8^ why you always be locking meh thread! µµ(Ò_Ó)µµ
Odigos Ellinas Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 68	Posted - 2014.04.08 13:25:00 - [108] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I think we all realise that Planetary Conquest has some holes in it still and I think simple changes could be made to dramatically improve how PC 1.0 plays out. The current situation I think exemplifies some of the numerous issues from clone pack size to passive ISK being better than fighting. I have a series of proposed ideas that I'd like to hear the community's thoughts on. 1. Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 (or 60) million ISK a piece. Alternate option is go back to 150 clones at 40 million ISK. 2. Turn off clone auto sale or reduced passive clone sales to 60k and increase biomass from battle to 160k 3. Make it where you only get ISK for clones killed in battle, which will tie up some loose ends potential locking for profit. 4. Make clone moves a minimum of 200 clones so that a district is weakened when an attack is launched and help minimize the snowball effect of owning many many districts. 5. Explore the idea of opening another Region of space in Dust 514 Planetary Conquest to spur activity, but only if the issues with passive ISK are addressed. 6. Implement a district transfer function so that a corporation doesn't have to use a clone pack to get into PC and also open up possibilities in terms of how conflicts are resolved outside of battle. 7. Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even (Probably can't be done in a hotfix). Alternate idea is to just give some amount of ISK even when losing. 8. Add the ability for any Eve pilot to connect to a district and fire for either team. This would allow freedom of association when it comes to alliance membership and allow Dust matches to be content for all of New Eden. Thanks to Eugene Killmore for helping get some of the brain juice flowing in this discussion. Edit: Points Updated to Reflect Discussion again none of this ideas are helping to get more players into PC they benefit only the district holders. Show some ideas how you will prevent a 16 man team take over all districts.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 2625	Posted - 2014.04.08 14:14:00 - [109] - Quote The real problem, as others have stated, is that it's too hard to get into PC. Smaller corps just can't do it. This leads to a a vicious cycle where nobody is able to gain the necessary experience to be competitive and the PC player pool gets smaller and smaller. Better players should basically always win, but without a way for corps to get in in the first place, nobody gets better. This goes back to the ludicrous absence of team deploy, but that's another discussion. I'd have to say that the best concepts geared towards increasing participation (not necessarily the exact solutions offered, just the concept) I've seen here are the following: 1) Buying clone packs (or whatever we switch to) should be more expensive the more districts you hold (starting at a nice round number like 5). This gets rid of some of the incentive to land grab because at some point you will get diminishing returns. 2) Opening up more land. Done properly this increases participation as there is more available. You would need to limit ownership in some way. One possibility would be to use the security status concept. Have a small area act as low-sec, and a much larger area as null sec. The key is that if you own districts in low-sec, you cannot own any in null sec. Low sec should also be less profitable in some way. Low-sec is not as appealing, so the elite corps that want a lot of land would have to move to nullsec. This leaves lowsec as a sort of super-sized PFC (enforced by concord, not some player corp using it as their own little protection racket) for the mid-tier people to fight over and gain experience. Using a "home-base" type mechanic of some kind would be very helpful, but to keep the wall of text at a minimum here I'll not go into it right now. 3) Finally, and to an extent I see this as the key to the whole thing I do think it's more than a little crazy that small elite groups can hold so much land. Obviously this is not real life, but it makes no sense that even Delta Force plus Seal Team 6, both to the third power, could secure an entire country. I see Kain's point that we shouldn't necessarily keep people from playing as much PC as they want, but some kind of functional limitation needs to be put in place. Whether it be based on distance, cost, time, whatever, something needs to place a realistic limit on what is now a immortal soldier of nearly mythological power, undying and able to fight wars on opposite sides of a star system nearly simultaneously with zero need for transportation or other logistical support of any kind. I realize this is not necessarily a hot-fixable thing, but I don't know that small hotfixes are able to have sizable impact at this point. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Forum Warrior lv.2 Amarr victor!
Void Echo Total Extinction 2402	Posted - 2014.04.08 16:50:00 - [110] - Quote either way PC is a broken system now and if CCP cant fix it by the end of this year, itl be dead because no new blood will be pouring in and it will become a shell of what it was. Youtube Closed Beta Vet CEO: Total Extinction

Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 760	Posted - 2014.04.08 17:37:00 - [111] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Traky78 wrote: 80 millions for 200 clones is too much, 60 millions will be much better. I'm concerned if the price is too low and the clone pack to0 useful we'll just end up with everyone using clone packs rather than their districts. The higher price also makes sure that locking with clones packs is done at a significant loss. Didn't read the entire thread. However, IMO the cost of clone packs needs to come way down. I would say base the cost on districts held, where the cost increases for each district owned something along the lines of: (districts owned + 1) * 10 million i.e. 0 districts : 10 mil 1 district : 20 mil 2 districts : 30 mil etc.. I think the 150 sized clone pack is the way to go. 120 is to few and 150 allows the other side to still clone you potentially. ...
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 761	Posted - 2014.04.08 17:42:00 - [112] - Quote Another thought I would add is that districts should be able to be attacked during their reinforcement window and the battle starts in 30mins from the launched attack so that you don't have 24+ hours to get the perfect 16 ringers in. This would allow surprise attacks both ways as well as coordinated strikes by multiple corps allowing them to schedule the battles at the same time. I strongly dislike the random nature of the PC battle time which really messes up coordination amoung allies. If you queue a battle more then 30 mins before the reinforcement window then the attack would occur at the start of the reinforcement window. ...
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 836	Posted - 2014.04.08 19:23:00 - [113] - Quote First off, no "hot fix" will even curb the issues currently hemorrhaging from PC. It needs an overhaul. Spending DEV time on balancing hot fixes is just not worth it. Real solutions: 1. Remove all passive isk generation. You must actively use your district to make money. (exactly how, is another topic) 2. Allow corps to bring 64 players into a match. No more 24 player groups defending 100 districts (some districts can have 64, 32, 12.) Allows smaller elite corps to hold specific districts and never lose them while allowing larger corps the freedom to "zerg" smaller elite corps 3. Reinforcement timers should only effect the last battle. Attacks should be able to happen at any time. Once there is 200 clones the distinct is locked and the final battle happens on the specified timer. Again, keeps single 25 man corps from holding onto large swaths of land and timer stacking. 4. Remove clone packs entirely. Allow corps to "accrue" clones through FW/Pubs. They are allowed to have a single facility as a corp that is genolution owned. Once full they can use this to raid a single district. It can only be used when full, all clones are sent. Clone generation rate needs to be balanced. (a corp in PC should not be using clone packs, if they want to use clone packs they have to play pubs/FW to earn them. They can only earn one. This keeps "shell corps" from becoming an issue as then the players have to be active in that corp and can only issue a single attack) PC fixed. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
TokinABowl ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 1	Posted - 2014.04.08 19:24:00 - [114] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=153445&find=unread -BETA BUNNY- Lead Director - ACME SPECIAL FORCES http://tinyurl.com/k85ymem
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3235	Posted - 2014.04.08 19:32:00 - [115] - Quote TokinABowl wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=153445&find=unread Again, getting feedback in on the ground floor for PC 2.0 is great, but timely, low bandwidth, adjustments need to be made to PC 1.0. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
smartlayer What The French Red Whines. 81	Posted - 2014.04.08 19:37:00 - [116] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Original points in the OP have been updated to reflect the discussion. My suggestions haven't been listed, it's not a troll and you know it
Arirana Ancient Exiles. Dirt Nap Squad. 499	Posted - 2014.04.09 01:08:00 - [117] - Quote There needs to be another counter implemented to deal with district locking if clone packs are going to be made at a reasonable price. Maybe if much like the timer on attacks and defenses in the battlefinder, the star map showed a timer on each district counting down to when it can be attacked; aka it's window. There would probably be 4 modes on the timer, one for when it's already under attack counting down to when the battle will take place, one for when the battle is going on, one for when the battle is over and there is x amount of time left until it can be attacked again, and one for when it is online. Perhaps giving everyone this info would make guess work less enjoyable (if anyone actually enjoys it) so I was thinking that adding a certain district infrastructure or some kind of optional upgrade that allowed you to scan districts in your system/constellation/region (whichever would be more balanced) of their timers. Making it view-able to everyone would take less work for a hotfix for the time being though. I have an ego?! O.O The scales have fallen from my eyes.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3318	Posted - 2014.04.09 01:24:00 - [118] - Quote Arirana wrote: There needs to be another counter implemented to deal with district locking if clone packs are going to be made at a reasonable price. Maybe if much like the timer on attacks and defenses in the battlefinder, the star map showed a timer on each district counting down to when it can be attacked; aka it's window. There would probably be 4 modes on the timer, one for when it's already under attack counting down to when the battle will take place, one for when the battle is going on, one for when the battle is over and there is x amount of time left until it can be attacked again, and one for when it is online. Perhaps giving everyone this info would make guess work less enjoyable (if anyone actually enjoys it) so I was thinking that adding a certain district infrastructure or some kind of optional upgrade that allowed you to scan districts in your system/constellation/region (whichever would be more balanced) of their timers. Making it view-able to everyone would take less work for a hotfix for the time being though. Locking wouldn't be an issue if the numbers were tweaked to make attacking and winning the most profitable action. Also make clone packs only available to non-landholders. If the primary advantage of having a district were being able to attack with more clones it changes everything. If you also introduced the window timers and 30 minute spawns of battles you have a game mode that is going to be played by a much larger portion of our playerbase. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3238	Posted - 2014.04.09 04:41:00 - [119] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Locking wouldn't be an issue if the numbers were tweaked to make attacking and winning the most profitable action. Also make clone packs only available to non-landholders. If the primary advantage of having a district were being able to attack with more clones it changes everything. If you also introduced the window timers and 30 minute spawns of battles you have a game mode that is going to be played by a much larger portion of our playerbase. Again, alt corps would make this a silly thing to try and implement. Example: you have Corp A and Corp B in an alliance but only Corp A has land. Under this setup Corp A hold the land and Corp B launches the clone packs. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2026	Posted - 2014.04.09 04:43:00 - [120] - Quote We can buy as many clone packs as we want without penalty for a good reason, it's impossible to actually stop us from buying them using shell corporations. I think the solution there isn't to limit the purchase of them, but limit the usefulness of them without making them weak. Something like this: buff the number of clones in the pack, but only allow them to be deployed to planets within 2 jumps of a Genolution station or highsec. If you want to own large chunks of territory then, you need to attack and defend with the clones you made yourself. This makes the lab bonus meaningful, limits the usefulness of them but still gives new corps the chance to carve out a piece of the pie at the edge of the region. I think the problems of PC can be boiled down to the fact that the design was built around the idea of location / geography being an important factor, and then the system we got threw that part out the window. Without that the mechanics required to make it work at all caused the system to become unstable and collapse.

Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2801	Posted - 2014.04.09 07:48:00 - [121] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: We can buy as many clone packs as we want without penalty for a good reason, it's impossible to actually stop us from buying them using shell corporations. I think the solution there isn't to limit the purchase of them, but limit the usefulness of them without making them weak. Something like this: buff the number of clones in the pack, but only allow them to be deployed to planets within 2 jumps of a Genolution station or highsec. If you want to own large chunks of territory then, you need to attack and defend with the clones you made yourself. This makes the lab bonus meaningful, limits the usefulness of them but still gives new corps the chance to carve out a piece of the pie at the edge of the region. I think the problems of PC can be boiled down to the fact that the design was built around the idea of location / geography being an important factor, and then the system we got threw that part out the window. Without that the mechanics required to make it work at all caused the system to become unstable and collapse. This is a great idea that needs to be implemented but is perhaps not hotfixable in PC1.0. However, removing passive isk entirely means that there would be zero incentive to lock districts. That's that problem solved supremely easily and all connected problems massively reduced. The blue donut would become pretty pointless, as no one would be making any money. You could reduce clone pack prices to whatever you want and change the clone numbers and whatever else without having to worry about the economic side of things. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1942	Posted - 2014.04.09 13:24:00 - [122] - Quote Don't have much to contribute here, because everything i think of keeps on bumping into the altcorp 'problem'. I don't neccesarily think it's a problem, kinda neutral on the topic atm. Feeling like the Genolution pack is the culprit here, though. One approach to the problem is to trying to come up with Real World analogs to the Genpak/altcorp mechaninc. The closest i've been able to get is something like when multinational corps like Boeing apply for protection as a 'fledgling industry'. In that case access to protection is effectively gated through a legislative/administrative process and the lobby industry, so there is time and money involved in getting access to the ~~Genpack~~ 'Fledgling' status. What if we do something like put a time lag on Genpacks? The PC pros will have to hammer out the details, but as a crude proposal what about: - maybe a 2 week lag between buying and being able to use your Genpack. - Corp participation in Genpack attacks must be 50% or greater, so at least half your mercs must be members of the altcorp. Failing to meet this criteria at match start(and throughout it's duration) means forfeiture of that match and loss of the Genpack. Also membership would have to be defined as older than 24 hours. -Genpacks can't be stored in any way, shape or form: once the waiting period expires, the pack has to be used to set up an attack immediately, say in a 4 hour window. Existing corps who wanted to use the Genpack mechanic for cross-region teleportation would then have maintain a queue of altcorps with Genpack applications to take advantage of the mechanic, as well as deal with the corp membership transfer hassle. This wouldn't stop the behavior, but it would make it a unappetizing logistical headache for wealthy existing corps looking to exploit the mechanic. Lastly, all of this should be fairly easy to implement for CCP, so very little new code - perhaps True Grit's system is robust enough to accomodate something like this already. Edit: Forgot the most important part: If measures like these worked, it would allow us to drop the price of a Genpak, making getting into PC less forbidding for new participants. Also, along the same lines, what if Genpack clones paid out at different rates than planetary clones? What if Genpack clones were not capturable or transferable? I support SP rollover.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3322	Posted - 2014.04.09 13:40:00 - [123] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Locking wouldn't be an issue if the numbers were tweaked to make attacking and winning the most profitable action. Also make clone packs only available to non-landholders. If the primary advantage of having a district were being able to attack with more clones it changes everything. If you also introduced the window timers and 30 minute spawns of battles you have a game mode that is going to be played by a much larger portion of our playerbase. Again, alt corps would make this a silly thing to try and implement. Example: you have Corp A and Corp B in an alliance but only Corp A has land. Under this setup Corp A hold the land and Corp B launches the clone packs. That's fine, as I wrote it doesn't matter as long as the attacking is where the real ISK is made. You'd be changing the reward structure, thus removing any incentive to lock. It would be so fluid that it wouldn't matter. And I don't think this is necessarily a long term solution, but it would help level out that learning curve that is holding back the other 99% of Dust players from PC. I think PC has to be noobed up a bit for it to grow into something interesting. The Dust playerbase isn't even remotely prepared for the high stakes of the current PC mechanics. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3322	Posted - 2014.04.09 13:43:00 - [124] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: We can buy as many clone packs as we want without penalty for a good reason, it's impossible to actually stop us from buying them using shell corporations. I think the solution there isn't to limit the purchase of them, but limit the usefulness of them without making them weak. Something like this: buff the number of clones in the pack, but only allow them to be deployed to planets within 2 jumps of a Genolution station or highsec. If you want to own large chunks of territory then, you need to attack and defend with the clones you made yourself. This makes the lab bonus meaningful, limits the usefulness of them but still gives new corps the chance to carve out a piece of the pie at the edge of the region. I think the problems of PC can be boiled down to the fact that the design was built around the idea of location / geography being an important factor, and then the system we got threw that part out the window. Without that the mechanics required to make it work at all caused the system to become unstable and collapse. I agree on that note, I'm not hung up on whether you should be able to buy packs as a landholder or not. I just want to see mechanics that create a fluid system. One that doesn't reward a 30 man super corp that can turn off their PS4 and log into Dust for 45 minutes and keep their thumb on the other 99% of Dust. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
Eugene Killmore Red Star. EoN. 406	Posted - 2014.04.09 17:07:00 - [125] - Quote The only thing that will save PC is increasing clone pack size or adding the ability to buy up to 450 clones at a set price per clone. At this point every other PC change is inconsequential in my mind other than adding a new region. Clone packs must allow corps a fighting chance and 120 is just stupid. EoN. #1 alliance of ALL TIME undefeated in bloc warfare ;) Forever repping that Red*Star 666 illuminati thug mafia.
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3246	Posted - 2014.04.09 17:12:00 - [126] - Quote Eugene Killmore wrote: The only thing that will save PC is increasing clone pack size or adding the ability to buy up to 450 clones at a set price per clone. At this point every other PC change is inconsequential in my mind other than adding a new region. Clone packs must allow corps a fighting chance and 120 is just stupid. And increasing clone pack size is such an easy change. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1652	Posted - 2014.04.09 17:29:00 - [127] - Quote No passive ISK No passive ISK No passive ISK Incentivize conflict over complacency, at this point the incentive to make ISK instead of fight is not only detrimental to PC now in terms of fair fights (if any) but also to any future iteration of PC where those that have made so much off the current mechanics have a huge upper hand and we're back to where we are now. No passive ISK No passive ISK Supporter of tiericide, EVE interaction, and a proper NPE SoonGäó514 "No blue tags make Tallen go crazy.
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 769	Posted - 2014.04.09 17:30:00 - [128] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Eugene Killmore wrote: The only thing that will save PC is increasing clone pack size or adding the ability to buy up to 450 clones at a set price per clone. At this point every other PC change is inconsequential in my mind other than adding a new region. Clone packs must allow corps a fighting chance and 120 is just stupid. And increasing clone pack size is such an easy change. That and the price has to be drastically reduced to allow corps not in PC to be able to afford the multiple packs required to take a lot of districts. Then loose passive ISK and tons of issues are fixed. 3 variables and PC would be in a much better place. ...
Roy Xkillerz Red Star. EoN. 29	Posted - 2014.04.09 17:39:00 - [129] - Quote + 1 add
1pawn dust Algintal Core Gallente Federation 134	Posted - 2014.04.09 18:02:00 - [130] - Quote They need to fix PC before opening another region. OP makes some valid points but there needs to be a corp hard cap on districts owned as well, its the only way to avoid a situation we have now, even if it means top tiers make alt corps to hold more districts, it should become exponentially harder to hold more districts. hardcored set costs for use of ringers, and restrict ringers to a small % of district attacker/defender force more district vulnerability over full 24hr, make corps diversify across timezones in order to hold territory instead of what we have now, which is broken as ****.

Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1942	Posted - 2014.04.09 18:06:00 - [131] - Quote Eugene Killmore wrote: The only thing that will save PC is increasing clone pack size or adding the ability to buy up to 450 clones at a set price per clone. At this point every other PC change is inconsequential in my mind other than adding a new region. Clone packs must allow corps a fighting chance and 120 is just stupid. The thing about expanding to a new region is that, yes, it might reduce issues temporarily, but the same undelying flawed mechanics would still be there driving bad gameply, but might be much less obvious. I'd rather see PC stay in the pressure cooker of Molden Heath until we hammer out mechanics that drive good gameplay. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1942	Posted - 2014.04.09 18:07:00 - [132] - Quote Tallen Ellecon wrote: No passive ISK No passive ISK No passive ISK Incentivize conflict over complacency, at this point the incentive to make ISK instead of fight is not only detrimental to PC now in terms of fair fights (if any) but also to any future iteration of PC where those that have made so much off the current mechanics have a huge upper hand and we're back to where we are now. No passive ISK No passive ISK Must +1. I support SP rollover.
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3255	Posted - 2014.04.09 23:20:00 - [133] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Tallen Ellecon wrote: No passive ISK No passive ISK No passive ISK Incentivize conflict over complacency, at this point the incentive to make ISK instead of fight is not only detrimental to PC now in terms of fair fights (if any) but also to any future iteration of PC where those that have made so much off the current mechanics have a huge upper hand and we're back to where we are now. No passive ISK No passive ISK Must +1. I'm pretty much in the same boat with killing off passive ISK except for the feedback I gotten from people outside the donut. The issue then becomes what incentivizes people to fight for districts or more importantly hold them? Holding a district means you have to react to those that attack you while living the life without land (which Imperfects strived for at the launch of planetary conquest) allows you freedom to fight when you choose to fight with no way for an enemy to attack you back although you have to base your match time on the timers set by district owners. I will say that 110k ISK per clone for doing nothing while getting 100k per biomassed clone when it includes the cost of equipment used in fighting and the time in fighting as well is nuts. If it weren't more profitable to sit on clones then the current blue donut would not exist I don't think or at least the ties would be much more tenuous. Can the prestige of having your name on district be enough to drive people to fix themselves into saying, "We are willing to defend every 24 to 48 hours at this set time should our enemies choose to attack us"? I think the drive to build sand castles is strong, but is it enough with just some minor variations of the current PC mechanics if the value of districts (passive ISK) is eliminated? Long term mercs don't need to be owning the districts. I think PC 1.0 has proven that out. They need to be owned at the corporate level and there needs to be relative parity between Eve and Dust CEOs and Directors. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Killar-12 OLDSPICE. Top Men. 2566	Posted - 2014.04.10 00:16:00 - [134] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Tallen Ellecon wrote: No passive ISK No passive ISK No passive ISK Incentivize conflict over complacency, at this point the incentive to make ISK instead of fight is not only detrimental to PC now in terms of fair fights (if any) but also to any future iteration of PC where those that have made so much off the current mechanics have a huge upper hand and we're back to where we are now. No passive ISK No passive ISK Must +1. I'm pretty much in the same boat with killing off passive ISK except for the feedback I gotten from people outside the donut. The issue then becomes what incentivizes people to fight for districts or more importantly hold them? Holding a district means you have to react to those that attack you while living the life without land (which Imperfects strived for at the launch of planetary conquest) allows you freedom to fight when you choose to fight with no way for an enemy to attack you back although you have to base your match time on the timers set by district owners. I will say that 110k ISK per clone for doing nothing while getting 100k per biomassed clone when it includes the cost of equipment used in fighting and the time in fighting as well is nuts. If it weren't more profitable to sit on clones then the current blue donut would not exist I don't think or at least the ties would be much more tenuous. Can the prestige of having your name on district be enough to drive people to fix themselves into saying, "We are willing to defend every 24 to 48 hours at this set time should our enemies choose to attack us"? I think the drive to build sand castles is strong, but is it enough with just some minor variations of the current PC mechanics if the value of districts (passive ISK) is eliminated? Long term mercs don't need to be owning the districts. I think PC 1.0 has proven that out. They need to be owned at the corporate level and there needs to be relative parity between Eve and Dust CEOs and Directors. I'd love if Clone sale was eliminated and the ISK for a sold clone was added to that of a biomassed one so 210k per dead clone... that might make ISK off of it... unless you're losing that is. How to Leave PC
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1947	Posted - 2014.04.10 01:03:00 - [135] - Quote How to address the passive income clone mechanic in a hot fix? A Simple Risk/Reward Mechanic 1. Once your district hits its clone capacity(300 or 450 depending on SI, iirc) clone production is cut down to 1/10 of the current rate. 2. But for the greedy/needy......if you sell clones the clone production rate goes back up until you hit full capacity again, so the district owner can increase their passive income by running with a lower standing clone count. That's it, end of fancy system. Our elite pvp corps could maintain their sweet passive income by maintaining maybe only 150 clones in their district, knowing that they were pvp gods and able to beat any other corp in the game with 150 clones. On the other hand, if they didn't have the balls for that they could maintain maybe 200 or 250 clones and significantly drop their passive income. It would also maybe give a boost to the SI that increases clone production rate. I support SP rollover.
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2034	Posted - 2014.04.10 03:00:00 - [136] - Quote Another idea would be to cut down the value for automatic clone sales by quite a bit, and have one particular SI that holds a lower max number of clones but receives more isk per clone on manual sales. ie: the facility is better at preparing / storing clones, so a higher percentage of them arrive at the destination in good condition. So what you would ideally do is have some factories, a central cargo district and sales points to get your isk out. If you want to make isk then some point of your supply chain gets weakened, and due to clone movement attrition you want them close together. If someone takes out part of that chain or locks it by attacking, your income goes down. To go with that we'd need to be able to transfer clones to other corporations, so if I didn't have a sales district I could sell my clones to someone who does with them taking a portion of the profit. Not hotfixable, but it's an idea.
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3257	Posted - 2014.04.10 05:59:00 - [137] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: Another idea would be to cut down the value for automatic clone sales by quite a bit, and have one particular SI that holds a lower max number of clones but receives more isk per clone on manual sales. ie: the facility is better at preparing / storing clones, so a higher percentage of them arrive at the destination in good condition. So what you would ideally do is have some factories, a central cargo district and sales points to get your isk out. If you want to make isk then some point of your supply chain gets weakened, and due to clone movement attrition you want them close together. If someone takes out part of that chain or locks it by attacking, your income goes down. To go with that we'd need to be able to transfer clones to other corporations, so if I didn't have a sales district I could sell my clones to someone who does with them taking a portion of the profit. Not hotfixable, but it's an idea. Yeah, an interesting idea. The more I think about it the more getting rid of auto sale makes sense. 5 districts? Not too hard to manage. 245 districts? Manual sale because a major logistical task. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2827	Posted - 2014.04.10 08:16:00 - [138] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: Another idea would be to cut down the value for automatic clone sales by quite a bit, and have one particular SI that holds a lower max number of clones but receives more isk per clone on manual sales. ie: the facility is better at preparing / storing clones, so a higher percentage of them arrive at the destination in good condition. So what you would ideally do is have some factories, a central cargo district and sales points to get your isk out. If you want to make isk then some point of your supply chain gets weakened, and due to clone movement attrition you want them close together. If someone takes out part of that chain or locks it by attacking, your income goes down. To go with that we'd need to be able to transfer clones to other corporations, so if I didn't have a sales district I could sell my clones to someone who does with them taking a portion of the profit. Not hotfixable, but it's an idea. Yeah, an interesting idea. The more I think about it the more getting rid of auto sale makes sense. 5 districts? Not too hard to manage. 245 districts? Manual sale because a major logistical task. Precisely. If passive isk is turned off completely, you can still make isk from each of your districts every day, it just becomes an active process and involves the inherent risk of lower clone counts. Risk <> Reward. Done. DO IT Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3260	Posted - 2014.04.10 15:44:00 - [139] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Precisely. If passive isk is turned off completely, you can still make isk from each of your districts every day, it just becomes an active process and involves the inherent risk of lower clone counts. Risk <> Reward. Done. DO IT I still consider that passive ISK, but yeah it does add an active element to it. I just don't like the idea that people right now could log off for weeks and if their districts didn't get attacked they would come back to a bunch of ISK without even a small amount of activity. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1218	Posted - 2014.04.10 16:06:00 - [140] - Quote i was under the impression we were meant to be taking contracts from eve players to capture planets so they could farm them for ISK. my solution to pc is this. make all clone packs bought in eve, transferred in eve to desired district (so potentially destroyed), and any isk from creating clones goes back into eve. this way the ISK generated is trapped in eve and not flooding dust. in order to earn your isk dust side eve players would insure their clones. this will create a payout pot in dust to allow the mercs to get paid while in eve it will drain away isk mostly from isk generated from clone sales. so an isk sink in eve and a controlled amount of isk generated in dust I will logi the s* out of you https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=99075&find

CHANCEtheChAn 0uter.Heaven 51	Posted - 2014.04.11 03:08:00 - [141] - Quote All this input is great and all But say we implement all the good ideas to fix PC The big blue donut dies multiple corps come back into PC YET Every day, at a battle timer, its STILL going to be the top 20 AE, Paradox, Nyain San, Molon, STB, Fatal abs, What the French etc. Playing all the PC all day long everyday. Only the top 16-20 players of corps get to play PC. Which is maybe 5%-10% of the DUST active population while the other 35% or so of daily players are proto PC ready and have to sit on the sidelines and never get any experience. The SAME players playing PC now are the same ones playing PC 4 months ago with the exception of new corps and specially gifted players. This is a problem of PC, and Dust as well as the vets get more and more and everyone else stales out. These players shouldn't be forced to play PC ,but veterans SHOULD NOT be allowed to hog DUSTs endgame to themselves every day while other descent to great corpmates sit in corp chat listening to PCs they won't be given an opportunity to fight, as every PC you need the absolute best 16, when corp power should be determined by not only small groups of quality, but also large groups of quantity like EvE . Fix PC involvement } Fix PC } Fix the veteran to noob ratio } Increase Dust funding from participation and competition } Increase Output from CCP } Dust grows } Dust and PC fixed Hmmm. The Meta is strong with this one...
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2834	Posted - 2014.04.11 07:56:00 - [142] - Quote @CHANCEtheChAn - these are the easy fixes that can be hotfixed in to deal with some of the glaring problems with PC1.0 - they will be only bandaids until PC2.0 comes along. You can not fix the problem of accessibility and low participation with a hotfix - that will only be possible with a whole new update, which could still be months away. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
CHANCEtheChAn 0uter.Heaven 52	Posted - 2014.04.11 09:43:00 - [143] - Quote Django Quik wrote: @CHANCEtheChAn - these are the easy fixes that can be hotfixed in to deal with some of the glaring problems with PC1.0 -youll be only bandaids until PC2.0 comes along. You can not fix the problem of accessibility and low participation with a hotfix - that will only be possible with a whole new update, which could still be months away. The problem with accessibility is much easier than you may think So is low participation Which I've stated fully in an overly long post a few pages earlier Everyone wants a shot at DNS and PC but A. Besides Outer.Heaven and maybe one or two other corps, Nearly every corp in the game not with DNS does not have a 16 man A team that can compete with say an NS A-team or an AE A-team. Molden Heath is like 716243536383826 districts total, 245 of which are open, and you say ONLY a 16 player team is needed to control this whole star system? BROKEN 1. 16 player team, not even necessarily in the same corp can hold all of Molden heath with no penalty for not being in the same corp or alliance Thus by this logic, why even have over 1 man corps, when that 1 man can bring in full teams of 15 for his PCs and those 15 don't have to pay taxes and just make a chat channel for you all to congregate? SOLUTION A. Limits to PC playability. You can literally go from one end of the universe to the other in one push of a button to protect your districts in PC or pubs. Pubs are of little significance where you go but PC is big significance. That's why I believe limits must be set on players playing PC over and over and over just like there are limits on the amount of players in a PC. EvE you can go anywhere you want and do things as much as you want, but takes time to reach your destination. While dust you can be anywhere you want to be, yet should be limited by the amount of things you can do. Thus a timer, or counter needs to be added, a simple UI addition to your neocom, that starts or subtracts as soon as you enter into a PC (AFTER 10 minute Warbarge) that counts a stock -1 or starts a timer (I've calculated a 50:00 timer) that counts down to 0 or 00:00, and until hitting 0 you may not enter another PC. "This is limitating player playability blah blah blah " if this is your argument you are forgetting this is a FREE TO PLAY. FREE TO PLAYS being the Montra of waiting for things. But if desired, an AURUM pack can be bought that would allow you 1 extra stock or instantly reduce your timer to 00:00 once activated thus allowing you to jump back into PC immediately. Think of the income CCP. Re up attacks are now moved 50 minutes apart rather than 5. Also if you want to go the lore route, Pub matches are NPC Controlled thus use huge, highly advanced tech to send your consciousness flying across space to fight pubs, while in PC your tech is corp owned thus smaller and less advanced to save money and resources and take more time to send you across the universe or time limit is a safety precaution that an aurum bought key card would allow you to bypass. Mmmm aurum, CCP Mmmm facing different players than the same 16 day after day after day after first attack Mmmm rethinking of how to set your district timers Mmmm blitzing and zerging is now viable Mmmm getting your logistics in order Mmmm getting off your ass to recruit to make sure you are now AT LEAST 3 teams deep in the PC ready department if you want Molden heath all to yourself Less 16 player TEAM domination-More CORP and ALLIANCE domination-More DUST action and involvement from everyone-more people get to PC-More people come back to Dust-Dust gets more crowded and commited-Dust competition and strategy grows-More CCP money-More CCP involvement-MOAR DUST-Everybody wins Hmmm. The Meta is strong with this one...
CHANCEtheChAn 0uter.Heaven 53	Posted - 2014.04.11 10:35:00 - [144] - Quote SIMPLE HOTFIX CODING Never worked with a complex game engine like Unreal before (Oh yeah, so complex with its dollar tree price tag I'm sure) BUT Here goes the simple string theory TIMER (Battle is created, battle is stamped) (Que for PC battle commences) Check for individual player timer >= 00.00 If yes proceed If not yes, kick player from squad and que {allowing rest of squad to continue in if in squad with more than him/herself} (Enter warbarge) (10:00 WB timer begins) (10:00 WB timer ends) (Warbarge timer expires) (Player timer is set from =<00:00 to =50:00) (PC begins) If player is in battle he is battle stamped (Player leaves battle) (Player reenters battle que) Check player battle stamp If battle stamp match If yes proceed player into battle {prevent DC mishaps} If no proceed player into battle, player becomes stamped, player timer is set from =<00:00 to = 50:00 (Battle ends) (Payout is given) I did timer as a scenario so that it does not limit the player as much as a stock timer would. A stock timer would only allow you to play a set number of PCs a day, which I believe is and should be discouraged by everyone. I believe a timer is a lot more forgiving because: 1. Theoretically a 16 player TEAM could hold 23 districts with the same 16 players. 1 district timer per 23 hours server uptime which I think is plenty of districts for a TEAM let alone an Alliance or Corp to hold. 2. Theoretically Allows the individual player to play up to 23 PCS a day, which if you ask ANYONE who has done this before that 23 PCs is overkill itself. 3. Theoretically Allows small elite corps at being effective at holding small number of districts effectively with just their A teams, while allowing bigger corporations to cover more Districts effectively equivilant to their size. Example: Corp A has 32 members active (without counting alliance and ringers) thus will theoretically be able to hold 8-10 districts effectively ( accounting for 2, 16 man teams per hour for the 4-5 hour a night that is "Primetime" for most corps). While corp B has 160 active players (not counting ringers or alliance) and thus theoretically be able to hold 40-50 districts during primetime hours. (Of course saying all players are of a high skill set) Of course this is all theoretical but it works We are running corporations not clans In real life and EvE the bigger your corporation size, the bigger your potential for growth and covering all your basis This would also align dust to be more theoretically true While we know it won't be because of differing player skills and play times etc. this allows more PC involvement for all and makes PC more than just "you 16 go here and you 16 go there", over and over. Quote and comment everyone's thoughts I'm open to suggestion and critique Hmmm. The Meta is strong with this one...
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3262	Posted - 2014.04.11 12:04:00 - [145] - Quote Chance, when people are talking about a hotfix it means only server side changes are made not client side, and if you put in some kind of timer you would have to communicate that to the player in-game and thus it would require client side changes and likely UI elements. Also, I'm sorry but your ideas of putting completely artificial timers and barriers on how much PC players participate in is just plain bad and completely counter to the sandbox. Vet players will just resort to using their numerous 10 to 15m SP alts to bypass an arbitrary system like that. Simply, you would be adding an annoying logistical layer with no real benefit. The solution here is not by creating some kind of corral but by adjusting the incentives. Eliminate auto sale and make fighting of much higher value than sitting on a district collecting clones and watch the sparks fly. Dust is a lobby shooter and that isn't changing, so yes if someone has better players they will beat you. Long term one of the issues that needs to be resolved is the fact that every PC fight is for the ownership of the district. SInce it is such high stakes there is an expectation that you field your best or hire someone that can actually compete against your enemies. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1956	Posted - 2014.04.11 13:06:00 - [146] - Quote Thinking about incentivising activity/conflict it almost seems like we have to break rewards up into scenarios. For example, in those cases where one side wins through clone attrition, we would expect(perhaps someday) the subsequent capture of the MCC. Could we work this into our current mechanics through something like a simple die roll? In those cases where you cloned your enemy, the server would use remaining allied/enemy MCC hitpoints to form an odds ratio, which it would then roll at end of match to determine if you were successful in capturing the MCC. So if when you cloned your enemy your MMC was at 50% hp and the enemy MCC was at 50% hp your odds for MCC capture at match end would be 1 in 2. Lastly, if MCC capture was meant to be a rare thing, we could just scale the results of the final odds calculation. Payout could just be lumped into the final ISK rewarded for the match and split up using the current mechanics. WhatGÇÖs an MCC worth, anyway? I support SP rollover.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2834	Posted - 2014.04.11 13:22:00 - [147] - Quote FYI - Hotfixing = changing numbers Hotfixing =/= adding anything new whatsoever Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 1907	Posted - 2014.04.11 14:37:00 - [148] - Quote Kain, how would you feel about pushing for the removal/replacement of districts with whole planets being a single district/combat area? It would allow CCP to spread DUST to more regions without rampantly increasing the district count. I don't think the total number of districts should rise much, but given how much EVE participation is relevant to where EVE groups live, I think it'd be ideal to get DUST in as many regions as possible. Reducing or removing the district pile would allow region proliferation without district proliferation. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3263	Posted - 2014.04.11 14:41:00 - [149] - Quote Django Quik wrote: FYI - Hotfixing = changing numbers Hotfixing =/= adding anything new whatsoever There is actually a good bit of PC mechanics that can be changed server side or can result from changes in how things in Eve operate. Something I'm curious to get people's feelings on. Time to get rid of the War Barge strike in Planetary Conquest? The original plan was to remove it with the change to the OB mechanics, but the CPM requested that it be left in so people in the PC community would have time to build their eve connections in response to the new mechanic. Personally, unless OB support it opened to outside of corp and alliance I think War Barge strikes need to remain. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3263	Posted - 2014.04.11 14:47:00 - [150] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Kain, how would you feel about pushing for the removal/replacement of districts with whole planets being a single district/combat area? It would allow CCP to spread DUST to more regions without rampantly increasing the district count. I don't think the total number of districts should rise much, but given how much EVE participation is relevant to where EVE groups live, I think it'd be ideal to get DUST in as many regions as possible. Reducing or removing the district pile would allow region proliferation without district proliferation. In the long run I would like for planets and the districts that go with them to build up naturally from SI being placed on the planet with the planet having a limited number of slots like a suit or ship. Some planets have more slots (districts) and others have less but there is no district to interact with until something has actually been built first. I'm not really sure about just having 1 district per planet. Maybe you have 1 keystone district on each planet, Soraya, that acts like a starting point with the above concept and it allows you to spawn side districts on the planet over time. Obviously this is a digression and would not really be possible in a hot fix. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news

Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 1910	Posted - 2014.04.11 14:51:00 - [151] - Quote I think a drastic reduction in districts per planet, and a move to a much wider distribution of districts over multiple regions would help more groups get involved, as different ones will have dominant EVE support in different areas. It makes district ownership location-relevant, something that we're badly missing. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3263	Posted - 2014.04.11 14:54:00 - [152] - Quote As long as auto sale ISK goes away I see no problem with having a lot of districts. Also, while adding a region is a few lines of code I think monkeying with the number of districts per planet may be more resource intensive with not a huge benefit. Also, I think the district model is fine for now, but long term you also need to add geography in how the districts link together when it comes to attacking and defending. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
da GAND L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 734	Posted - 2014.04.11 14:58:00 - [153] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Kain, how would you feel about pushing for the removal/replacement of districts with whole planets being a single district/combat area? It would allow CCP to spread DUST to more regions without rampantly increasing the district count. I don't think the total number of districts should rise much, but given how much EVE participation is relevant to where EVE groups live, I think it'd be ideal to get DUST in as many regions as possible. Reducing or removing the district pile would allow region proliferation without district proliferation. That sounds good but how would it work exactly? Would an entire planet be open to attack at anytime? Would the owners of the planet be able to go anywhere they wanted on the planet? And would the ps3 or even the ps4 be able to handle it? Rage at Fanfest??
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 772	Posted - 2014.04.11 15:14:00 - [154] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Chance, when people are talking about a hotfix it means only server side changes are made not client side, and if you put in some kind of timer you would have to communicate that to the player in-game and thus it would require client side changes and likely UI elements. Also, I'm sorry but your ideas of putting completely artificial timers and barriers on how much PC players participate in is just plain bad and completely counter to the sandbox. Vet players will just resort to using their numerous 10 to 15m SP alts to bypass an arbitrary system like that. Simply, you would be adding an annoying logistical layer with no real benefit. The solution here is not by creating some kind of corral but by adjusting the incentives. Eliminate auto sale and make fighting of much higher value than sitting on a district collecting clones and watch the sparks fly. Dust is a lobby shooter and that isn't changing, so yes if someone has better players they will beat you. Long term one of the issues that needs to be resolved is the fact that every PC fight is for the ownership of the district. SInce it is such high stakes there is an expectation that you field your best or hire someone that can actually compete against your enemies. Given what you said about hot fixes being server side I'm going to make a very valid assumption you know nothing about software releases. Hot fixes are NOT limited to server side unless CCP are complete idiots. This is why you see the client syncing, it's updating your client. How much they can update client side is debatable, but horfixes in all proper use of the term mean changing the code. ...
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 772	Posted - 2014.04.11 15:15:00 - [155] - Quote Django Quik wrote: FYI - Hotfixing = changing numbers Hotfixing =/= adding anything new whatsoever Completely wrong. Even CCP is not this bad. ...
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3341	Posted - 2014.04.11 15:18:00 - [156] - Quote Odigos Ellinas wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Odigos Ellinas wrote: "Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even." This should be temporary solution until player market is aded to the game. And can i have a answer for my timer question. Why not shorter timers ??? It will force corporations to recruits more players and send them to PC battles. This way a larger player base can participate in PC. The end goal is to have fights and "surprise" we're fighting now isn't really a great mechanic. People have real lives and should be given the chance to schedule out how to respond to starting a fight or setting up a defense. The other side of this is that the timers as they are give a chance for the organization needed to occur between both Eve and Dust. This would be especially true if Orbital Support is opened up beyond the chains of alliance membership. The curent timer alows a small part of the players to excile the majority of players. Opening new systems means giving the small elite more districts. All you need is a good A team. Reducing the timer a corporation will need more then 1 A team. Thats how it works in eve POS (main ISK producers) can be attacked any time. The 24hour timer for the ownership of the system starts after the POS are destroyed. Thats why in Eve small elite corps are working like pirates with random raids and not like large system owners. If you want to hold a system you need alot of members. That should be the same in dust. Now we have a 80% of players with protofittings playing in pubs against new players. Find a way to get protofitting players in to PC. He doesn't want to hear that, but It's honestly a nobrainer for CCP to implement this because it opens up PC to so many more players. If you were able to set a window of downtime for a district (let's say 8 hours) this would give a corporation the ability to cover a timeframe that they aren't likely to have people on for battles. Outside of that window, it's game time. You either have people on or you don't. But like I said, they don't want this. It would require them to recruit and maintain more players. God forbid they have to add a player with a KDR under 4. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3263	Posted - 2014.04.11 15:21:00 - [157] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: Given what you said about hot fixes being server side I'm going to make a very valid assumption you know nothing about software releases. Hot fixes are NOT limited to server side unless CCP are complete idiots. This is why you see the client syncing, it's updating your client. How much they can update client side is debatable, but horfixes in all proper use of the term mean changing the code. Of course you have to touch code to make any changes. It's a matter if that code is being handled by the server or the client. Example: changing a clone pack from 120 to 150 doesn't require any code changes on the client running on the PS3 and thus you don't have to download a patch for it. I'm by no means a programming wizard, but I do understand how CCP is able to handle updates and hotfixes. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3263	Posted - 2014.04.11 15:37:00 - [158] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: He doesn't want to hear that, but It's honestly a nobrainer for CCP to implement this because it opens up PC to so many more players. If you were able to set a window of downtime for a district (let's say 8 hours) this would give a corporation the ability to cover a timeframe that they aren't likely to have people on for battles. Outside of that window, it's game time. You either have people on or you don't. But like I said, they don't want this. It would require them to recruit and maintain more players. God forbid they have to add a player with a KDR under 4. Eh, not really. We actually had a case where I was sick and wasn't able to distribute the fight card, so folks weren't ready or expecting matches. I logged in and two of those matches were right on top of each other and we only had minutes to prep. We assembled two teams and dealt with both with one actually being a district attack, which resulted in us flipping the district. I'm sure attack windows could be handled just fine by DNS, but honestly this ends up turning the game into a job. You MUST be on every day to defend districts over these X hours is just not a good way to do it. Dust 514 is still a lobby shooter and that is best experience when you have two full teams facing off against each other. Now I could see it where you combine a timer and a window with the window fight allowing the attackers to make money and if they press the attack it triggers the timer and then it becomes a fight for the district. Again, I'm not sure I like the attack windows idea, but I'll try to poke around and see how much that could be implemented in a hot fix. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3341	Posted - 2014.04.11 15:52:00 - [159] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: He doesn't want to hear that, but It's honestly a nobrainer for CCP to implement this because it opens up PC to so many more players. If you were able to set a window of downtime for a district (let's say 8 hours) this would give a corporation the ability to cover a timeframe that they aren't likely to have people on for battles. Outside of that window, it's game time. You either have people on or you don't. But like I said, they don't want this. It would require them to recruit and maintain more players. God forbid they have to add a player with a KDR under 4. Eh, not really. We actually had a case where I was sick and wasn't able to distribute the fight card, so folks weren't ready or expecting matches. I logged in and two of those matches were right on top of each other and we only had minutes to prep. We assembled two teams and dealt with both with one actually being a district attack, which resulted in us flipping the district. I'm sure attack windows could be handled just fine by DNS, but honestly this ends up turning the game into a job. You MUST be on every day to defend districts over these X hours is just not a good way to do it. Dust 514 is still a lobby shooter and that is best experience when you have two full teams facing off against each other. Now I could see it where you combine a timer and a window with the window fight allowing the attackers to make money and if they press the attack it triggers the timer and then it becomes a fight for the district. Again, I'm not sure I like the attack windows idea, but I'll try to poke around and see how much that could be implemented in a hot fix. To be quite honest it's the only way for the vast majority of Dust players and corps to deal with you guys. At some point I'd hope that more players would be skilled enough to win a straight up match against you. But honestly, you play in pubs. And you've played against a lot of corps in PC. It's like JV vs the Pro Bowl team right now and without team deploy or some way to practice and repair that is something not likely to change for a LONG time. Think of it as a buffer between a low skilled playerbase and tournament champ teams in the hope that the skill level can increase by the time some real Eve/Dust mechanics are introduced. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3341	Posted - 2014.04.11 16:14:00 - [160] - Quote I don't mind being the guy asking to noob up PC. It has to happen at some point. Something has to be done for the MASSIVE mistake of releasing PC without some way to practice for it. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior

Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3263	Posted - 2014.04.11 16:17:00 - [161] - Quote The system still needs to be balanced and adding mechanics that will add long term problems isn't the best course. I don't think the mechanics should go out of their way to punish players for being good. I put out some pokes about the window issue and I'm also in the process of getting a meeting set with CCP so these issues can be discussed. When I hear something back about how much the timers can be manipulated I'll let you know. We just need to be careful we don't swing the pendulum so far one direction that it becomes the blob always wins or Planetary Conquest becomes something you MUST do every day to keep your district. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Ku Shala The Generals General Tso's Alliance 924	Posted - 2014.04.11 16:19:00 - [162] - Quote corps that dont own districts should be able to passively gain enough clones to make an attack with out having to spend isk on a clone pack. this could be something that is assosiated with corporation skills tree. so for example a corporation that did not own any districts with max corp skills could gain 20 clones per day up to 120(or what ever 1 clone pack is )clones. this would enable smaller corporations to participate in PC once per week ( with max skills of course, less skills would = less participation). I would also like to stress that only corporations without districts could gain clones passivley. this could help more corps into PC and cost corporations holding districts more isk. *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä* Closed Beta ¦¦V¦¦e¦¦t ¦¦ H8R Caldari Loyalist
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3263	Posted - 2014.04.11 16:21:00 - [163] - Quote Problem is alt corps would be created to take advantage and use that kind of system to lock districts from attack for free. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 772	Posted - 2014.04.11 16:27:00 - [164] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Ares 514 wrote: Given what you said about hot fixes being server side I'm going to make a very valid assumption you know nothing about software releases. Hot fixes are NOT limited to server side unless CCP are complete idiots. This is why you see the client syncing, it's updating your client. How much they can update client side is debatable, but horfixes in all proper use of the term mean changing the code. Of course you have to touch code to make any changes. It's a matter if that code is being handled by the server or the client. Example: changing a clone pack from 120 to 150 doesn't require any code changes on the client running on the PS3 and thus you don't have to download a patch for it. I'm by no means a programming wizard, but I do understand how CCP is able to handle updates and hotfixes. I just don't want you to limit what you think they can achieve on a hotfix. I know a lot about software development and from what I have seen they have a fairly robust hotfix system. Obviously configuring server numbers SHOULD be easiest but small changes to the client side should be relatively easy to. If we can push them to tweak a few items PC 1.0 could be much improved even if it still really needs a complete new version to make it what it should have been. ...
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 772	Posted - 2014.04.11 16:34:00 - [165] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The system still needs to be balanced and adding mechanics that will add long term problems isn't the best course. I don't think the mechanics should go out of their way to punish players for being good. I put out some pokes about the window issue and I'm also in the process of getting a meeting set with CCP so these issues can be discussed. When I hear something back about how much the timers can be manipulated I'll let you know. We just need to be careful we don't swing the pendulum so far one direction that it becomes the blob always wins or Planetary Conquest becomes something you MUST do every day to keep your district. I really agree with Thor on these attack windows. The key is surprise and not always having the same guys on. You will still be able to arrange your best guys for when you launch offensives, but people will have a chance to catch you off guard and you might have to struggle the next few days to come back from their offensive. Let's have 30 min pre battle timers during the attack window, this would create a lot more attacks and allow you to know exactly when a battle is so you could stack timers properly. This enabling 2,3 or more 16 man teams to deploy all at once creating a much more intensive organizational opportunity then the random times. Currently stacking timers is fairly ineffective since one could end up at 10 after and one at 50 after (seemed to happen to us a lot such that we gave it up). The stacked timers that some corps, say call it corp N do then could be really punished since they would have to be ready every day for an attack at their ohhh, lets say 3am window. This would prevent corps from overextending and encourage more corps into PC. Allowing 24+ hours notice for battles is crazy and I think what ruins the dynamics of this version of PC. With that much warning you are always prepared for an attack, something that is unrealistic and prevents many players from getting their chance to help the corp by being on during an attack window and filling an important spot. ...
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3264	Posted - 2014.04.11 16:37:00 - [166] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: [quote=Kain Spero][quote=Ares 514] I just don't want you to limit what you think they can achieve on a hotfix. I know a lot about software development and from what I have seen they have a fairly robust hotfix system. Obviously configuring server numbers SHOULD be easiest but small changes to the client side should be relatively easy to. If we can push them to tweak a few items PC 1.0 could be much improved even if it still really needs a complete new version to make it what it should have been. Agreed. The most important thing for these suggestions that they be low bandwidth. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 772	Posted - 2014.04.11 16:39:00 - [167] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Ares 514 wrote: [quote=Kain Spero][quote=Ares 514] I just don't want you to limit what you think they can achieve on a hotfix. I know a lot about software development and from what I have seen they have a fairly robust hotfix system. Obviously configuring server numbers SHOULD be easiest but small changes to the client side should be relatively easy to. If we can push them to tweak a few items PC 1.0 could be much improved even if it still really needs a complete new version to make it what it should have been. Agreed. The most important thing for these suggestions that they be low bandwidth. I completely agree. Adjusting the ISK payouts in all honesty should take almost no effort on their part. Just remember that we need to keep clone costs low so that corps that don't own districts can afford to launch attacks. Even at 36 million it's just not worth it to do many attacks. ...
The Robot Devil Brave Bunnies Brave Collective 2300	Posted - 2014.04.11 16:40:00 - [168] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: Good ideas, 200 clone Clone Packs would truly make battles a lot more exciting. I would know cause we've been fighting you guys and 120 clones goes away pretty fast lol +1 120 Clones it utter crap and a waste of ISK. It has to get changed. Have multiple clone packs that offer different amounts of clones for a different price. That way a small number of clones could be bought to just add to the count for just a small amount of ISK. A corp may have limited funds but think they could win with 50 more clones. I also think dropping the time down to around 18 hours may help also. "One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production." Raoul Duke
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 773	Posted - 2014.04.11 16:43:00 - [169] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Kain Spero wrote: 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: Good ideas, 200 clone Clone Packs would truly make battles a lot more exciting. I would know cause we've been fighting you guys and 120 clones goes away pretty fast lol +1 120 Clones it utter crap and a waste of ISK. It has to get changed. Have multiple clone packs that offer different amounts of clones for a different price. That way a small number of clones could be bought to just add to the count for just a small amount of ISK. A corp may have limited funds but think they could win with 50 more clones. I also think dropping the time down to around 18 hours may help also. Although having multiple clone packs is probably a good idea, i think adjusting the numbers on one is much easier and something they would actually do. I support 150 clone packs for 10 million ISK :) ...
Klivve Cussler S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance 234	Posted - 2014.04.11 16:52:00 - [170] - Quote After reading all this, I'm thinking that three hotfixes, implemented together, might do the trick. Obviously, I'd love to see industry replace passive ISK generation, but that is definitely not a hotfix: 1. No clonepacks for corporations that hold districts. By allowing corporations to buy clonepacks, CCP has bypassed the clone-loss mechanic, which was a natural limiter in the ability for a corporation to hold and reenforce a far-flung empire. It wasn't part of the original design, and it's causing problems. You can buy a clonepack to get into the game, but not once you're in. 2. Limit the number of districts a corporation can hold. This could be done with a hard limit, but I think a scaled increase in upkeep costs as the number of districts grows might work better. That way, a corp can exceed their limit if strategy dictates it, but only at a cost. Allied corporations will allow people to get around this, but that means trusting more people with money and power. Sooner or later, that will end in tears. 3. Open up other regions. Even with the low participation PC is currently getting, the districts are full. There needs to be more space than the current big players can reasonably hold. By opening up the adjacent regions, CCP will allow other corporations to get into the game with a lower risk of obliteration. If we get all that and the strategic gameplay settles into a dynamic balance, or even a slow growth, then we can look at some of the bigger issues.

Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3265	Posted - 2014.04.11 16:54:00 - [171] - Quote I think folks are underestimating the value of effective clone packs. I'm also curious now if a raiding mechanic can be implemented. What if instead of auto sale on the reinforce timer it spawns a match that you have to go into and win to get the ISK from your auto sale. The match spawns in other contracts for the attacker side where anyone can join. Attackers win they get ISK from the clone sale instead. Each side gets 40 clones. The effect would be a way for corps without land to siphon ISK from the big boys and potentially use that ISK to fund effective clone packs rather the relying on just taxes and donations. (My concern is this idea would require too much bandwidth) I'm fine with entertaining the idea of smaller clone packs I just think you won't solve PC 1.0 self attacking with clone packs unless the packs exceed the ISK you get from killing it combined with the passive ISK. Although with the above idea or turning off passive clone sales that problem would be largely eliminated. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Ku Shala The Generals General Tso's Alliance 925	Posted - 2014.04.11 16:56:00 - [172] - Quote you would have to invest alot of sp in an alt corp to take advantage of locking a district for 1 day or have a huge number of alt corps. That is why the amout of clones gained passively would have to reflect the level of your corp, maybe only 1 or 2 clones a day for corporation control or maybe even no clones until megacorp control and only receive 2 clones per day per level. game mechanics will always be abused. it would cost 2798280 sp to lock a distict for 1 day once a week @ 2 clones per day with level 5 transteller empire control. there needs to be a way for corps with small member numbers not in control of districts to participate in pc. pc district owners have endless isk and can afford clone packs easily. *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä* Closed Beta ¦¦V¦¦e¦¦t ¦¦ H8R Caldari Loyalist
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 4687	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:06:00 - [173] - Quote Personally I think it's silly that the same 16 people can instantly teleport all over MH and defend as many districts that they want at literally the same time. While this game should not be about zerging. 3 or 4 A-Teams should not be able to defend an entire region. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 773	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:08:00 - [174] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I think folks are underestimating the value of effective clone packs. I'm also curious now if a raiding mechanic can be implemented. What if instead of auto sale on the reinforce timer it spawns a match that you have to go into and win to get the ISK from your auto sale. The match spawns in other contracts for the attacker side where anyone can join. Attackers win they get ISK from the clone sale instead. Each side gets 40 clones. The effect would be a way for corps without land to siphon ISK from the big boys and potentially use that ISK to fund effective clone packs rather the relying on just taxes and donations. (My concern is this idea would require too much bandwidth) I'm fine with entertaining the idea of smaller clone packs I just think you won't solve PC 1.0 self attacking with clone packs unless the packs exceed the ISK you get from killing it combined with the passive ISK. Although with the above idea or turning off passive clone sales that problem would be largely eliminated. Potentially a cool idea, probably to much work. I think to start we need to just make Passive ISK gain a thing of the past. Make it 0. You get nothing for doing nothing. In the long run they can give the proper rewards for owning districts but right now it's to much to address in a hotfix so lets just put an end to it since it causes a lot of issues. ...
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2837	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:39:00 - [175] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: Django Quik wrote: FYI - Hotfixing = changing numbers Hotfixing =/= adding anything new whatsoever Completely wrong. Even CCP is not this bad. When have CCP ever added something new in a hotfix? They fiddle with numbers and fix bugs but anything even remotely new they leave for the big updates, even a lot of the bug fixes! Changing numbers of clone packs or removing passive isk I can see as doable in one of these hotfixes without too much bother but do you really believe that they'll be able to manage anything grander than that with PC1.0 without a proper update and before PC2.0 comes out? Do you really think they'll bother to monkey with the mechanics when they're going to tear it all down and replace it in a few months anyway? Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 774	Posted - 2014.04.11 18:28:00 - [176] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Ares 514 wrote: Django Quik wrote: FYI - Hotfixing = changing numbers Hotfixing =/= adding anything new whatsoever Completely wrong. Even CCP is not this bad. When have CCP ever added something new in a hotfix? They fiddle with numbers and fix bugs but anything even remotely new they leave for the big updates, even a lot of the bug fixes! Changing numbers of clone packs or removing passive isk I can see as doable in one of these hotfixes without too much bother but do you really believe that they'll be able to manage anything grander than that with PC1.0 without a proper update and before PC2.0 comes out? Do you really think they'll bother to monkey with the mechanics when they're going to tear it all down and replace it in a few months anyway? Your quote saying hotfixing = changing numbers is completely wrong. Hotfixes often are used to fix bugs but they can also be used to add in content that you couldn't complete in time or to resolve something that ends up not working as intended. This can often mean adding new code, although for hotfixes it would usually be smaller changes. I agree that they should only be making smaller changes; however, you're incorrect in thinking those changes can only be adjusting numbers. ...
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3266	Posted - 2014.04.11 19:41:00 - [177] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Personally I think it's silly that the same 16 people can instantly teleport all over MH and defend as many districts that they want at literally the same time. While this game should not be about zerging. 3 or 4 A-Teams should not be able to defend an entire region. More importantly it should not cost billions of isk to just try to overwhelm 30 people. We have 4 A-teams just under Escrow via FA, Teamplayers, Imperfects and The Rainbow Effect, so try not to exaggerate the numbers too much. Instant travel via the sleeper implants is actually one of the things that makes Dust unique compared to Eve and it is honestly a good thing. Trying to arbitrarily limit how much PC someone can play in a given period or where then can play is just a silly idea that will end up benefiting vets anyways (more likely to have high SP alts that are still PC ready). Also, something everyone should read: http://outofcake.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/malcanis-law/ Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3341	Posted - 2014.04.11 19:47:00 - [178] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The system still needs to be balanced and adding mechanics that will add long term problems isn't the best course. I don't think the mechanics should go out of their way to punish players for being good. I put out some pokes about the window issue and I'm also in the process of getting a meeting set with CCP so these issues can be discussed. When I hear something back about how much the timers can be manipulated I'll let you know. We just need to be careful we don't swing the pendulum so far one direction that it becomes the blob always wins or Planetary Conquest becomes something you MUST do every day to keep your district. Agreed, but that pendulum is steered in the opposite direction of blob. I don't think there's a finer example than the donut. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1956	Posted - 2014.04.11 20:06:00 - [179] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The system still needs to be balanced and adding mechanics that will add long term problems isn't the best course. I don't think the mechanics should go out of their way to punish players for being good. I put out some pokes about the window issue and I'm also in the process of getting a meeting set with CCP so these issues can be discussed. When I hear something back about how much the timers can be manipulated I'll let you know. We just need to be careful we don't swing the pendulum so far one direction that it becomes the blob always wins or Planetary Conquest becomes something you MUST do every day to keep your district. What if we tie the 'clone export window' to the 'attack vulnerability window', and adjust the clone production rate such that if a corp wanted to extract maximum passive ISK from a district it would have to be vulnerable/export several times a day. Conversely, if a corp wanted to play as defensively as possible, perhaps their district would be vulnerable to attack only once per week, but at that point they would be making virtually no passive ISK. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1956	Posted - 2014.04.11 20:11:00 - [180] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I think folks are underestimating the value of effective clone packs. I'm also curious now if a raiding mechanic can be implemented. What if instead of auto sale on the reinforce timer it spawns a match that you have to go into and win to get the ISK from your auto sale. The match spawns in other contracts for the attacker side where anyone can join. Attackers win they get ISK from the clone sale instead. Each side gets 40 clones. The effect would be a way for corps without land to siphon ISK from the big boys and potentially use that ISK to fund effective clone packs rather the relying on just taxes and donations. (My concern is this idea would require too much bandwidth) I'm fine with entertaining the idea of smaller clone packs I just think you won't solve PC 1.0 self attacking with clone packs unless the packs exceed the ISK you get from killing it combined with the passive ISK. Although with the above idea or turning off passive clone sales that problem would be largely eliminated. Like this a lot - generates PC-quality battles for corps who may not have the resources/connections to hold a district. Provides limited risk but great experience for PC noobies, increases community mixing. allows more peeps to have valid PC experince so they can add to the conversation. Battle could even be an ambush ^^ I support SP rollover.

Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3266	Posted - 2014.04.11 20:16:00 - [181] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Battle could even be an ambush ^^ I think it would have to have objectives, so either Dom or Skirmish. Honestly, whatever is easier for them to potentially program. The issue is even if the idea is good it may take too much bandwidth. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
The Robot Devil Brave Bunnies Brave Collective 2300	Posted - 2014.04.11 20:27:00 - [182] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I'm sure attack windows could be handled just fine by DNS, but honestly this ends up turning the game into a job. You MUST be on every day to defend districts over these X hours is just not a good way to do it. Dust 514 is still a lobby shooter and that is best experience when you have two full teams facing off against each other. Now I could see it where you combine a timer and a window with the window fight allowing the attackers to make money and if they press the attack it triggers the timer and then it becomes a fight for the district. Again, I'm not sure I like the attack windows idea, but I'll try to poke around and see how much that could be implemented in a hot fix. If a corp or alliance is going to own a district then it should be hard work and you should have to be able to play x hours a day or delegate it to someone else in your corp. If PC is the "end game" that PC players say it is then it shouldn't be easy. The game will continue to be a lobby shooter if we continue to treat it that way. Corporations are making large profits from these districts and it just seems a little too easy for them to hold them. If you are having to depend on only a few players to defend 245 districts then the game is seriously screwed up. How many people do you rely on to hold 245 districts? Because it should take about that many individuals to defend that many districts and if the numbers are closer to 50-60 people being able to fight off the entire game then the system is borked up bad. It should be hard work and stressful to own all of the districts and it should be very time consuming but it doesn't seem that way at all. I don't know how much time you spend on district stuff but if you have a job, do CPM stuff and control every district in the game then it is just too easy. The time invested to make that much ISK should be way up there. There doesn't seem to be a way to divide and concur or use any kind of tactic to take a district. Like I said I don't know what it takes for you to control all of them but to the average player it just seems like it is too easy. I understand that you worked hard on all of the deals you made with other corps and things like that. I think you are doing a great job at that but my point is that to 99% of the player base there is no way to counter the DNS. "One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production." Raoul Duke
Marcus Stormfire G.R.A.V.E INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 15	Posted - 2014.04.11 20:38:00 - [183] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: 5. Explore the idea of opening another Region of space in Dust 514 Planetary Conquest to spur activity, but only if the issues with passive ISK are addressed. 9. Add the ability to bring up the map for upcoming battle while in the War Barge. (Probably can't be done in a hotfix) #5 I definitely agree with this. Right now Eve pilots don't see a reason to really get involved with Dust Battles. I foresee a glorious future of burned and cratered planets with spaceship graveyards in orbit. We cant have that without the eve side getting more exposure to Dust. #9 I have always been a fan with manipulating game environment (with limits) This would give Mercs the ability to help plan out the battles and help make players truly feel like they are a part of the game. I know that the ability to open doors for example would keep me entertained for days. =) -Marcus
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3268	Posted - 2014.04.11 20:40:00 - [184] - Quote Marcus Stormfire wrote: Kain Spero wrote: 5. Explore the idea of opening another Region of space in Dust 514 Planetary Conquest to spur activity, but only if the issues with passive ISK are addressed. 9. Add the ability to bring up the map for upcoming battle while in the War Barge. (Probably can't be done in a hotfix) #5 I definitely agree with this. Right now Eve pilots don't see a reason to really get involved with Dust Battles. I foresee a glorious future of burned and cratered planets with spaceship graveyards in orbit. We cant have that without the eve side getting more exposure to Dust. #9 I have always been a fan with manipulating game environment (with limits) This would give Mercs the ability to help plan out the battles and help make players truly feel like they are a part of the game. I know that the ability to open doors for example would keep me entertained for days. =) -Marcus For bringing up the map I simply mean having the normal in-match map function available on the direction pad. Nothing fancy with the map in the center of the room. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 4690	Posted - 2014.04.11 21:53:00 - [185] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Personally I think it's silly that the same 16 people can instantly teleport all over MH and defend as many districts that they want at literally the same time. While this game should not be about zerging. 3 or 4 A-Teams should not be able to defend an entire region. More importantly it should not cost billions of isk to just try to overwhelm 30 people. We have 4 A-teams just under Escrow via FA, Teamplayers, Imperfects and The Rainbow Effect, so try not to exaggerate the numbers too much. Instant travel via the sleeper implants is actually one of the things that makes Dust unique compared to Eve and it is honestly a good thing. Trying to arbitrarily limit how much PC someone can play in a given period or where then can play is just a silly idea that will end up benefiting vets anyways (more likely to have high SP alts that are still PC ready). Also, something everyone should read: http://outofcake.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/malcanis-law/ Sorry but I still find the mechanic of being able to be everywhere instantly pretty silly and it leads to the situation we have now. People taking more land than they should be able to hold with such small numbers. I could care less about how it may seem refreshing and to may seem like a good thing but small groups taking control of an entire region because they can be everywhere is silly as ****. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3268	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:02:00 - [186] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: This isn't about you. this isn't about your alliance. this about the game. Couldn't agree more. Please explain to me in detail hot the hotfixes I suggested specifically benefit my alliance only and me only. I'm all ears. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3453	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:04:00 - [187] - Quote Instant travel is a thing. Thats what makes us who we are and puts us one step ahead of capsuleers who have to use jump clones with a 24 period between jumps. There are even some capsuleers, such as The Broker, who can seemingly break all of the traditional rules and have multiple copies of himself running around at the same time. That's the universe we live in. Molden Heath is a relatively small amount of land. It's a tiny, irrelevant piece of space. The game is much bigger than Molden Heath. The playerbase is not. But our playground is going to expand whether we're ready for it to do that or not. Other planets will become available, other regions will become available. Why get salty.
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 4695	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:25:00 - [188] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: This isn't about you. this isn't about your alliance. this about the game. Couldn't agree more. Please explain to me in detail hot the hotfixes I suggested specifically benefit my alliance only and me only. I'm all ears. I spoke generally about small groups being able to hold MH and it's always been that way. You inserted yourself into the conversation, Kane. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3268	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:31:00 - [189] - Quote Cyrius if you are talking logistics and geography at the corp and alliance level then, yes, I would love to see some changes there, but what I don't think would be good would be placing arbitrary limits on the players themselves. Again, I don't see that happening in a hotfix, but things that have to be considered for beyond PC 1.0. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 4695	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:31:00 - [190] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Instant travel is a thing. Thats what makes us who we are and puts us one step ahead of capsuleers who have to use jump clones with a 24 period between jumps. There are even some capsuleers, such as The Broker, who can seemingly break all of the traditional rules and have multiple copies of himself running around at the same time. That's the universe we live in. Molden Heath is a relatively small amount of land. It's a tiny, irrelevant piece of space. The game is much bigger than Molden Heath. The playerbase is not. But our playground is going to expand whether we're ready for it to do that or not. Other planets will become available, other regions will become available. Why get salty. 40 attacks were placed on districts on the same timers. It was defended by a very very small handful of mercs. There were not 640 mercs in those battles defending that space. How is this a smart system? It isn't just because the clone packs are tiny. I understand the lore says you can be anywhere but in my opinion a merc should be only able to fill one contract at a time. Meaning he loads into that battle and cannot enter another battle until that contract is complete. This would force people to have the manpower to actually defend their districts or at least a fuckton of alts to do so. Excuse me for believing it's far far too easy for small groups to hold so much land. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.

Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2837	Posted - 2014.04.12 09:31:00 - [191] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: Django Quik wrote: Ares 514 wrote: Django Quik wrote: FYI - Hotfixing = changing numbers Hotfixing =/= adding anything new whatsoever Completely wrong. Even CCP is not this bad. When have CCP ever added something new in a hotfix? They fiddle with numbers and fix bugs but anything even remotely new they leave for the big updates, even a lot of the bug fixes! Changing numbers of clone packs or removing passive isk I can see as doable in one of these hotfixes without too much bother but do you really believe that they'll be able to manage anything grander than that with PC1.0 without a proper update and before PC2.0 comes out? Do you really think they'll bother to monkey with the mechanics when they're going to tear it all down and replace it in a few months anyway? Your quote saying hotfixing = changing numbers is completely wrong. Hotfixes often are used to fix bugs but they can also be used to add in content that you couldn't complete in time or to resolve something that ends up not working as intended. This can often mean adding new code, although for hotfixes it would usually be smaller changes. I agree that they should only be making smaller changes; however, you're incorrect in thinking those changes can only be adjusting numbers. Okay, maybe I should have framed my assertion in the context of CCP and Dust514. Yes, normally hotfixes in other companies on other software projects could be much more than just changing numbers - on Dust it's basically only changing numbers. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2837	Posted - 2014.04.12 09:55:00 - [192] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I think folks are underestimating the value of effective clone packs. I'm also curious now if a raiding mechanic can be implemented. What if instead of auto sale on the reinforce timer it spawns a match that you have to go into and win to get the ISK from your auto sale. The match spawns in other contracts for the attacker side where anyone can join. Attackers win they get ISK from the clone sale instead. Each side gets 40 clones. The effect would be a way for corps without land to siphon ISK from the big boys and potentially use that ISK to fund effective clone packs rather the relying on just taxes and donations. (My concern is this idea would require too much bandwidth) I hate this idea purely because the attack becomes open to all. Every merc and their dog would jump in that match and no organised group would ever get their whole team in to attack. Only the very worst defending team would ever lose but what's worse is that it would exacerbate the problem you mentioned earlier of PC becoming a job. Remove auto-sales (but not manual clone sales) and drastically lower clone pack costs and you'll get a lot more fighting. Technically these two changes would still leave the door open for self locking but with no auto-sale isk the incentive is way way reduced and in order to make any money from self-locking you'd need people to actually play the attacking clones to get them killed. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 1858	Posted - 2014.04.12 12:23:00 - [193] - Quote My cure is: Close PC Swipe all Isk generated Open old corp battles Rework PC Open PC and let corp battles too Rework as it follow: Districts always open to attack with 2 hours notice Add corp clones storage (150 clones) out of district Clones automatically add every hour (a small amount) to district or to corp storage at minutes --:00 Tax on ringers (out of alliance) Best of 3 mode to conquer a district or deplete defender \ attacker clones Cap at 200 clones per district Alliances can move clones between district (% survival depending on jumps) Clones are bought singularly to fullfill corp clones storage or districts Clones in excess are automatically sold District status Green - normal status of a district not under attack (can move clones, buy clones) Yellow - lasts 1.5 hours after you have received an attack notification (can move clones, buy clones) Red - lasts from 30 minutes before 1st attack till the district is succesfully defended or attacked (can't move or buy clones) -1st round Attackers must start with full corp storage (150). Defenders have corp storage + district clones. -Defenders win Kill all clones - there will not be another attack Destroy enemy MCC - defenders steal 50%+1 of the attackers remaining clones - Attackers win Kill all clones - district conquered Destroy enemy MCC - attackers steal 50%+1 of the attackers remaining clones -2nd round Works like the first, if a team score 2 MCC wins it conquers the district. -3rd round Like over. Closing notes: we should be able to salvage biomass from public contracts something like 1/3 units as a rare drop. Players can donate this biomass to corp or sell it (after open market). The unnamed new build it's so secret that nobody know what will be in it, even after patch notes.. \o/ summon me
The Robot Devil Brave Bunnies Brave Collective 2306	Posted - 2014.04.12 12:58:00 - [194] - Quote Drop the tax on ringers and I like the rework. Wiping ISK is on the fence with me but I like the rework idea. "One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production." Raoul Duke
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3269	Posted - 2014.04.13 15:28:00 - [195] - Quote Django Quik, I think the problem of everyone spawning in could be only having it appear in other contracts for other player corps (no npcs) and giving priority to full squads. Again, I think the idea may require too much bandwidth. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1966	Posted - 2014.04.13 18:15:00 - [196] - Quote Thinking about how this game will be in the future: Planets/districts from which landholding corps extract resources for use in EVE/DUST & clone mercenaries that can instantaneously jump their consciousness across all of colonized space. If we speculate that MMCs will be necessary to wage war and able to get in-system via covert jump of some carrier craft, warbarge or otherwise, how much advanced warning would we expect to have as the defender of a district? How should the attack scheduling mechanics work when the game is mature? The most organic and immersive mechanic i can imagine is vulnerability based on resource export - when we need to get clones/materials offplanet we necessarily open ourselves up to attack for a short period. Avoiding or ameliorating this vulnerability may be one of the primary motivations for investing in beanstalks. If we agree that the above description of the final product is a reasonably close guesstimate, it would be judicious to align our current ad hoc mechanics as closely as possible with our future vision, so long as the resulting system generated good gameplay. For that reason export window vulnerability seems the way to go, imo. To balance our current game mechanics income should scale with vulnerability, and corps should be able to set the frequency of the vulnerability/income window. I would calibrate the mechanic such that if a corp chose to be vulnerable 4 times per day they would maintain their current income, 2 times per day would be half their current income, once per day would be a quarter their current income and once every two days would an eighth of their current income, etc. This mechanic would generate lots of fights on weekends/holidays, reduce passive income, allow district-holders to adapt to RL demands and give corps an alternative to alt-corp-locking. It would not prevent alt-corp-locking, but that is a separate mechanic. While this shouldn't require too much work(and would require almost none if True Grit designed with flexibility/future in mind), it is prolly not something we could do in a hot fix now. Just posting it because it's worth thinking about what PC is ultimately going to look like. tl:dr District income should be tied to how often you allow your district to be vulnerable. District vulnerability timers would then be variable, from hours to days between possible battles. I support SP rollover.
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3270	Posted - 2014.04.13 22:32:00 - [197] - Quote In terms of what can be done for Planetary Conquest 2.0 I get really excited. I get the feeling that the potential in Dust that drew us to this game can actually be realized and the Dust 514 can become a true game. I think being vulnerable during resource export and allowing for those realtime no timer fights alongside timer fights for the districts really would be a great way to go. While these visions comes to be though we have the reality that is PC 1.0. I really don't feel that letting it languish while we wait for PC 2.0 is an option. The two biggest issues to me are passive ISK and clone pack size. The rest of the discussion becomes nuanced mechanics that may or may not be able to be addressed with the resources available. Listening to the discussion here though is seems if we could get two things thrown into a quick hotfix while some of these other things are looked at it's increasing the clone pack to 150 with the same current cost per clone and turning off auto sale of clones. These are things that must be done and every day that goes by PC 1.0 digs itself further into the hole. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Spartacus Dust NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 322	Posted - 2014.04.13 22:44:00 - [198] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: In terms of what can be done for Planetary Conquest 2.0 I get really excited. I get the feeling that the potential in Dust that drew us to this game can actually be realized and the Dust 514 can become a true game. I think being vulnerable during resource export and allowing for those realtime no timer fights alongside timer fights for the districts really would be a great way to go. While these visions comes to be though we have the reality that is PC 1.0. I really don't feel that letting it languish while we wait for PC 2.0 is an option. The two biggest issues to me are passive ISK and clone pack size. The rest of the discussion becomes nuanced mechanics that may or may not be able to be addressed with the resources available. Listening to the discussion here though is seems if we could get two things thrown into a quick hotfix while some of these other things are looked at it's increasing the clone pack to 150 with the same current cost per clone and turning off auto sale of clones. These are things that must be done and every day that goes by PC 1.0 digs itself further into the hole. I completely agree Twitter @Matthew_Dust Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1967	Posted - 2014.04.14 00:08:00 - [199] - Quote Spartacus Dust wrote: Kain Spero wrote: In terms of what can be done for Planetary Conquest 2.0 I get really excited. I get the feeling that the potential in Dust that drew us to this game can actually be realized and the Dust 514 can become a true game. I think being vulnerable during resource export and allowing for those realtime no timer fights alongside timer fights for the districts really would be a great way to go. While these visions comes to be though we have the reality that is PC 1.0. I really don't feel that letting it languish while we wait for PC 2.0 is an option. The two biggest issues to me are passive ISK and clone pack size. The rest of the discussion becomes nuanced mechanics that may or may not be able to be addressed with the resources available. Listening to the discussion here though is seems if we could get two things thrown into a quick hotfix while some of these other things are looked at it's increasing the clone pack to 150 with the same current cost per clone and turning off auto sale of clones. These are things that must be done and every day that goes by PC 1.0 digs itself further into the hole. I completely agree also agree. These are good 'do no harm' proposals that fit into PC 1.0 and address current issues. I support SP rollover.
Spartacus Dust NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 363	Posted - 2014.04.14 02:16:00 - [200] - Quote CCP BRING THE HOTFIX HAMMER Twitter @Matthew_Dust Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.

Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2854	Posted - 2014.04.14 07:11:00 - [201] - Quote Thanks Kain - despite what anyone thinks of DNS or yourself or your motivations for any of this, I support any effort to bandaid PC1.0 for the time-being and remain hopeful that PC2.0 will come in swiftly to give us the game we have all been wanting. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Duke Noobiam Nyain Chan 60	Posted - 2014.04.14 20:03:00 - [202] - Quote Let me start by saying that I don't have a complete understanding of how PC works, so please forgive any false assumptions that I may have made. So let me start by defining the problem as I understand it, please correct me if I am wrong... From what I understand, the current "problem" is that.... 1. Corporations that hold districts in MH can sell unused clone packs / biomass to an NPC entity (Genolution). This is only really a problem because of #2. 2. Corporations are colluding to lock districts in mock battles to ensure other corps cannot challenge them for their districts. My idea is to fix the price of clone packs and biomass to the demand generated by PC battles. In other words, more clone deaths reduces the availability of clones and raises the price of clone packs for both selling and buying. The opposite would also be true, fewer clone deaths increases the supply of clones therefore reducing the price of clone packs. The actual price could be set by the NPC entity (Genolution) based on ratios along with upper and lower limits to the price range. This would make it cheaper for corporations to buy clone packs to attack when there is little action in PC as well as discourage district locking as this would drive down the price of clone packs. How do you kill that which has no life?
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3340	Posted - 2014.04.16 14:39:00 - [203] - Quote The meeting with CCP went very well. I think CCP understands that there are complex issues regarding Planetary Conquest with some potentially straight forward changes. The most important of these issues being passive ISK and clone pack size. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 1969	Posted - 2014.04.16 14:49:00 - [204] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I think CCP understands that there are complex issues regarding Planetary Conquest with some potentially straight forward changes. The most important of these issues being passive ISK and clone pack size. So when do we get fixes? I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2094	Posted - 2014.04.16 14:59:00 - [205] - Quote Duke Noobiam wrote: Let me start by saying that I don't have a complete understanding of how PC works, so please forgive any false assumptions that I may have made. So let me start by defining the problem as I understand it, please correct me if I am wrong... From what I understand, the current "problem" is that.... 1. Corporations that hold districts in MH can sell unused clone packs / biomass to an NPC entity (Genolution). This is only really a problem because of #2. 2. Corporations are colluding to lock districts in mock battles to ensure other corps cannot challenge them for their districts. My idea is to fix the price of clone packs and biomass to the demand generated by PC battles. In other words, more clone deaths reduces the availability of clones and raises the price of clone packs for both selling and buying. The opposite would also be true, fewer clone deaths increases the supply of clones therefore reducing the price of clone packs. The actual price could be set by the NPC entity (Genolution) based on ratios along with upper and lower limits to the price range. This would make it cheaper for corporations to buy clone packs to attack when there is little action in PC as well as discourage district locking as this would drive down the price of clone packs. I think this idea is basically where CCP has been going all along, but instead of a back end system managing the price it would be a player market. They've said many times that they want clones to be something that players trade. I think once we have a market and a set of PVE systems that inject enough isk to keep the economy afloat, what will happen is clones will be something a corp will buy from other players. Then instead of injecting massive piles of isk it simply moves it around. Problem is right now the producers and consumers are the same group.
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3340	Posted - 2014.04.16 15:06:00 - [206] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Kain Spero wrote: I think CCP understands that there are complex issues regarding Planetary Conquest with some potentially straight forward changes. The most important of these issues being passive ISK and clone pack size. So when do we get fixes? Unknown, but I've made my opinion know to CCP that if/when they decide on changes they need to inform the community. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
The Robot Devil Brave Bunnies Brave Collective 2368	Posted - 2014.04.16 15:11:00 - [207] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Kain Spero wrote: I think CCP understands that there are complex issues regarding Planetary Conquest with some potentially straight forward changes. The most important of these issues being passive ISK and clone pack size. So when do we get fixes? Unknown, but I've made my opinion know to CCP that if/when they decide on changes they need to inform the community. The need to inform us and then really listen to what we have to say, form a different set of changes based off of our input, run it by the CPM, change it again if needed then tell us the final plan for final feedback. EVE has just now moved to this kind of system and DUST would be smart to emulate that way of changing the game. I do think they listen but I don't always think that they act on those suggestions. "One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production." Raoul Duke
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1976	Posted - 2014.04.16 17:22:00 - [208] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Kain Spero wrote: I think CCP understands that there are complex issues regarding Planetary Conquest with some potentially straight forward changes. The most important of these issues being passive ISK and clone pack size. So when do we get fixes? Unknown, but I've made my opinion know to CCP that if/when they decide on changes they need to inform the community. Thanks for the effort and the report. Even if this is a temporary fix to PC, the motivation for CCP should be the possibility of a more positive and larger palyerbase come fanfest. Improvements made to PC spill over into FW and pubs. I support SP rollover.
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1698	Posted - 2014.04.16 17:41:00 - [209] - Quote We need Warbarges, you can attack whenever or wherever you want, but you need to move clones from one district or another with a warbarge. Warbarge must orbit for 10 minutes to alert defenders. Once match starts OBs can be dropped by the WB based on WP or another ship based on time, but one firing resets the WP count/ timer of the other. Clones are an item on the open market in EVE. EVE pays for warbarges, clones, moves and sells excess clones on the market themselves. Dust mercs get paid for winning battles based on enemy gear lost. This will be the alternative to clone packs. The attackers invests in order to try and take a district? They have the advantage of mobility and EVE support. The defender has the advantage of possibly higher clone count per match, no upfront cost, can move from district to district on one planet without the need for a warbarge. Warbarges themselves can be price scaled, small destroyer sized ones, 150 clone BS sized ones 450 clones etc....... Blue donut + small clone demand = less profit EVE, No matches means no profit dust. Perks: Meaningful EVE interaction Geography matters Economics matter Dynamic real time conflicts The clone trade makes conflict necessary to keep it going Less well equipped corps are lower value target Cons: Those with no EVE ties have an uphill battle Without an actual merging of the economies cross game ISK exchanges require middle man. Small non international alliances would have trouble holding anything in off hours. If there was some other way to get Dust based corps involved without the need for EVE investment that would be great. District selling mechanic wouldn't be a bad idea for the escrow services to get people into PC. Also some sort of repercussion to no showing an attack on a neighboring district..... like loosing a deposit? Very rough and not feasible anytime soon, possibly exploitable, but hopefully simple enough to grasp and stay interesting. Supporter of tiericide, EVE interaction, and a proper NPE SoonGäó514 "No blue tags make Tallen go crazy.
Kain Spero Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3341	Posted - 2014.04.16 17:49:00 - [210] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Kain Spero wrote: I think CCP understands that there are complex issues regarding Planetary Conquest with some potentially straight forward changes. The most important of these issues being passive ISK and clone pack size. So when do we get fixes? Unknown, but I've made my opinion know to CCP that if/when they decide on changes they need to inform the community. The need to inform us and then really listen to what we have to say, form a different set of changes based off of our input, run it by the CPM, change it again if needed then tell us the final plan for final feedback. EVE has just now moved to this kind of system and DUST would be smart to emulate that way of changing the game. I do think they listen but I don't always think that they act on those suggestions. Could not agree more. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news

smartlayer What The French Red Whines. 105	Posted - 2014.04.16 18:33:00 - [211] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Kain Spero wrote: I think CCP understands that there are complex issues regarding Planetary Conquest with some potentially straight forward changes. The most important of these issues being passive ISK and clone pack size. So when do we get fixes? Unknown, but I've made my opinion know to CCP that if/when they decide on changes they need to inform me and then a few weeks later the community. Fixed
Laiod Klan Providence Guard Templis CALSF 9	Posted - 2014.04.29 23:30:00 - [212] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: The problem with PC battles is that there is absolutely ZERO benefit for Eve players to be part of PC other than helping the corp. Take the districts and make them valuable, add Eve to Dust and vice versa transfers available and let people fight over them, add more districts. For all of "two lines of code" as per Hilmar during the last fanfest we could have more districts. Edit: Not just PC district transfers but asset transfers, isk transfers and a market to sell goods...the game is broken without any of this stuff, there is a serious problem stop trying to hotfix the stuff that needs real coding time. This is all too true. The location is completely irrelevant to anything in EVE imo. Maybe if PC happened throughout all FW space or something like that, it would be much better. What you have said reaches my thoughts exactly. America is becoming a police state. I traverse the universe in a warp field. http://en.spaceengine.org/
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2486	Posted - 2014.04.30 07:06:00 - [213] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: The need to inform us and then really listen to what we have to say, form a different set of changes based off of our input, run it by the CPM, change it again if needed then tell us the final plan for final feedback. EVE has just now moved to this kind of system and DUST would be smart to emulate that way of changing the game. I do think they listen but I don't always think that they act on those suggestions. This doesnt even work in EVE with the CSM. Dont expect it to work in Dust any time soon. CCP dont give a f00k about what the players think. And according to some, it will be their companys downfall: http://evenews24.com/2014/04/27/submissions-three-years-i-hope-im-wrong/ Get your fcking *** together CCP. HTFU Gë£ Live with CCP´s mistakes. "I tried so hard and got so far.... but in the end it doesnt even matter."
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 946	Posted - 2014.04.30 08:50:00 - [214] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Sounds good but you know as well as the next man that PC is done. You'd have to be a proper idiot to want to grind for months just to either get everything taken off you anyway or blue up. Trust me, the end game in dust is the most pointless joke ever. Sources? Hundreds upon hundreds of players coming, grinding and then quitting. It needs to change a lot but your ideas definitely slow down the already beyond fked state of PC, we have talked about it and I dream that one day, PC will change a lot, not just sprinkles. I guarantee that by that time though, games like dust will simply be the norm. That is sadly true. CCP let their endgame knowingly and willingly die and so did the CPM...(or may be they did not have the influence to stop the nonsense but either way the outcome is the same). Even though these Ideas are good this wouldn't change anything as the damage has already been done. The only way to resurrect PC would be a complete ISK and ISK based asset reset and THIS CCP won't do as this would hurt the honest players as well and would make many players very angry...so R.I.P. PC


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