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Sir Snugglz
Red Star.
EoN.
611
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Posted - 2014.04.06 19:55:00 -
[61] - Quote
honestly there's no point right now in coming up with hotfixes if PC 2.0 is around the corner. Since we know nothing about it and what's being changed, we shouldn't try to fix something that hopefully will already be fixed in 2.0. Just wait and see what it is, then come up with possible problems that could occur, and then come up with new hotfix ideas.
-Pro AFKing LVL 5
-Luck is just one of my skills
-Just because I make flying look easy doesn't mean it is
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Spartacus Dust
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
279
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Posted - 2014.04.06 20:21:00 -
[62] - Quote
I could be wrong but the CPM probably wouldn't be asking for community support if they believed CCP would fix it on their own.
Twitter @Matthew_Dust
Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
3261
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Posted - 2014.04.06 20:30:00 -
[63] - Quote
Eugene Killmore wrote:Flyingconejo wrote:@Kain
You are missing the real problems PC has. Those problems are passive isk generation and unlimited force projection, that allows a corp to chain fights with the same players all around Molden Heath instantly.
Those problems are inherent to PC 1.0 design. You can make all the small patches and fixes you want, but the current PC situation wont change because PC 1.0 is broken at its core. Even if DNS breaks after fanfest, Molden Heath will always be dominated by the 4-5 top corps of the moment.
Opening more districts would solve nothing. Those corps would have just double the districts they have now, with double the isk.
In my opinion, wasting development resources in PC 1.0 would be a mistake, because it is unfixable. Just focus in PC 2.0 and pray they don't screw it up.
Also, I have a question. Are your proposals coming from Kain the CPM or from Kain the player? Because, honestly, some of your proposals seem to be made by the player.
Making the transfer of districts easier, or making easier the use of mercenary eve pilots, are things that would be of benefit to a very small part of the playerbase.
As Kain the player, it is legit for you to push for changes that benefit your game goals. But as CPM, I would prefer you to push CCP to dedicate the development resources they have to things that would make the game better for the entire playerbase, instead of 1%.
There is nothing wrong if you are pushing for these changes as Kain the player, but you should make it clear in the OP. So the problem is better players can beat crappy players? Thats every fps ever made. Step 1 of fixing pc is making clone packs a option for those without districts. Cus right now its impossible to compete in pc without districts.
I don't think anyone wants easy mode. But the balance of experience and skill of those still involved in PC vs the rest of Dust is off the charts.
I continue to see proposals that still favor small elite groups and I truly don't understand how anyone expects PC to flourish without an exponential increase in participation from the playerbase. If the mechanics need to be more harsh then tweak the mechanics, but I'd rather see bumper rails on the lanes for a while to boost participation.
Something has to be done to water down the overwhelming amount of talent at the top. If that means cheap clone packs to allow the a Dust community to take their shots at the big boys over and over then so be it. Perhaps I'm off base, but I think step one is making PC more attainable and playable sooner. For example Corp A is new and has 16 players online, they should be able to buy a clone pack and participate in a battle within the hour.
If Corp A is smart they'll hit someone with stacked timers to be able to deal with the B or C team. Not 24-48 hours when they only have 5 guys on and they'll be facing 16 dudes with 8+ KDRs for the month.
ML Director
Eve Toon - Raylan Scott
Level 3 Forum Warrior
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Captain Spiff 514
Bacon And Tacos
1
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Posted - 2014.04.06 20:42:00 -
[64] - Quote
Flyingconejo wrote:@Kain
You are missing the real problems PC has. Those problems are passive isk generation and unlimited force projection, that allows a corp to chain fights with the same players all around Molden Heath instantly.
Spot on. |
Killar-12
OLDSPICE.
Top Men.
2549
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Posted - 2014.04.07 00:05:00 -
[65] - Quote
Since when was taking the good players and taking over stuff wrong? If the players want to leave your corp it blows but it happens.
How to Leave PC
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Odigos Ellinas
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
60
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Posted - 2014.04.07 00:22:00 -
[66] - Quote
Killar-12 wrote:Since when was taking the good players and taking over stuff wrong? If the players want to leave your corp it blows but it happens.
Good players like to get into PC. The only way right now is joining one of the elite corps.This is the main reason the elite corps can maintain theyr lvl and occurs the monthly paychecks.
PC is broken thats a fact the results can be seen through thrall the game, pubs, FW and the economy.
The endgame should not be joining a elite corp and stomping pubs. It should be PC for all players that have protofitings.
This is not a tournament its supposed to be a part of the eve universe.
Oh and good players win battles and not all PC. |
Spartacus Dust
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
280
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Posted - 2014.04.07 00:30:00 -
[67] - Quote
Players are just stupid and can't adapt and overcome.
Everyone had the chance to Join their corp, become a powerful player with influence, and destroy them from the inside, just like one player did to BOB who at the time was the biggest baddest EVE Alliance in the game. People still have a chance to do all that, people just don't know how to attack a corp in everyway possible.
One person can change everything.
In the meantime stop crying, wait for Fanfest in MAY (next month), see what CCP Rouge has up his sleave. Pray DNS BLACK get's elected to the CSM so we have an EVE player who cares about DUST on it (he's one of two that do the other is Sugar Kyle a pirate in MH).
It's called a sandbox universe for a reason, if you have the power to do something you can do it, and no one can say **** except those who have the power to do something about it.
Twitter @Matthew_Dust
Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.
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CHANCEtheChAn
0uter.Heaven
37
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Posted - 2014.04.07 00:32:00 -
[68] - Quote
Don't know if I'm right or not.
Or if anything I'm bout to propose can be done on the ps3 (as I think no new patch will install new income or player bases into dust unless it is a patch to switch the game to ps4, where everything CCP does is not "can we do that?", but with the new, 10 YEARS NEWER TECHNOLOGY becomes "When can we do that"?)
But being in and out of a few wars and being a mercenary for a few,
The problem is that the top 20 players of a CORPORATION gets to play in PC. (20 being your 16 a-team plus your guys you switchin wwhen your A-team players are out)
9 PLAYERS in baseball is a TEAM.
11 PLAYERS in football is a TEAM.
16 PLAYERS in Dust is a TEAM.
And yet, CORPORATIONS who go to war with over 300 players in their ranks and can play 40+ PCs a day with only their best 16...
I'm sorry but this just doesn't sit well with me.
When we think of corporations, we think of big businesses with big pay checks and lots of logistics and a lot of people to run it.
And typically, the biggest corporations have the most power and influence.
Yet, in Dust, the signal of power and influence is PC essentially, and has time after time been ruled and taken over by corporations with minimum amounts of players. Case in point 0.H., TP, Escrow, IMPs, synergy, AE, Paradox, Nyain San, etc. All corps with under 100, most even under 50 active players that are continually overtaking corps with hundreds of active players that participate in PC.
Thus I propose
1.Any person that is not in a corp that a PC has started between (escrow and AE are in a pc against one another and TP shows up for Escrow, TP players are not listed as a starter or defender of the battle), once they (TP) enter the battle, an automatic tax is taken out of said corp with ringers (in this instance escrow), of 1-5 mil isk per merc. If corp isk cannot provide proper tax payment, mercenaries are kicked from game immediately (to prevent emptying corp wallets before PCs) This is to promote the bettering of your own corpmates to fight instead of using petty money for a ringer to continually carry your team in PC over and over against those that don't wish to pay, but would rather use their own players to win. Alliance members should get %50 off merc tax if a player coming in is in their alliance. You will see why this is important next.
2.All dust players are given an timer, either from the time their PC starts or ends, that extends anywhere from 30minutes till 2 hours. Until this timer ends, said individual will not be able to re-enter a PC.
A. This will allow a corps best 16 to still play but if an enemy has launched multiple attacks within a few hours span, will now make "A-teamers" sit out a few PCs that now must be filled with either ringers or more hopefully, non A-team players from a corp and Thus puts more emphasis on recruiting players thus gets more players involved with PC thus gets more players on DUST thus gets more income to CCP thus creates more competition as poaching players when you have the best 16 in the game isn't necessary yet if you have say 50 freiken districts you now need the best 100 in the game to defend those districts so the amount of districts you own no longer correlates to how good your team is but how good your CORPORATION is which increases logistics in DUST which increases meta game which turns dust BACK from uprising now and back to uprising in the beginning where spies were everywhere, everyone was your enemy and your friend, and things were just more betta. (Wholly grammar batman)
But here's an example : Corp A has 2 districts and 56 players that they are defending with timers 1 hour apart. Timer is setto 50 minutes after PC starts (this is to account for warbarge time).Corp As A team of 16 plays and defends district 1, and then in 50 minutes all go into second PC to defend second district. But wait? Only 16 players total got to play in both PCs. This is okay as 16 players is nearly 1\3 of corporation A total player base. Meaning a lot of their players got to play.
Hmmm. The Meta is strong with this one...
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CHANCEtheChAn
0uter.Heaven
37
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Posted - 2014.04.07 00:34:00 -
[69] - Quote
To mean no disrespect kane to you or your alliance, but now let's bring your own corp into this conversation Kane as by your own words and AE and everyone else's in the big blue donut that you own as much as you do in Molden Heath to "break PC and DEMAND CCPs attention" , and to "prevent this sort of thing from ever happening again." In doing this I have sought out the single biggest flaw in the big blue donut, and in ignoring this we now know the true intentions of the donut are to farm isk and live on top...OR KANE SPERROW you are really here to fix PC.
Escrow Removal and Acquisition has 62 districts and 45 players. For the next few days, furious under appreciated corps that were kicked out of PC conspire to Blitz Escrows 0,1,2,3,4 timers, in which 75% of escrows timers occur. With escrows current roster of elite players, they will only be able to field 15 semi full battles in this time period, of which 62x75%= 47-15=32 battles that cannot be defended by escrow. This MEANS that if merc tax is employed at 2 million per merc (which I believe is quite reasonable) it will cost Escrow 1,024,000,000 ISK in taxes (that are properly applied because Escrow does not have the players to field battles for all of their districts and should have to pay for it as do all other corps) to field full alliance or merc teams to field their 32 other battles. PER DAY.
What this means!
BOOM! UNLESS a corp has the logistical skills to organize dozens of merc squads and teams a day at different times (which they won't) AND have the isk to pay taxes for all mercs (which most don't), THEN corps no longer will be able to control PC territory outside the extent of the amount of active players AND organization they have.
BAM! Corps will be run more like corporations instead of teams of elite players just getting together and smashing the weaker 16. Leadership roles will be extended to players to help manage the chaos instead of small corps at this point only needing a CEO and that's it. This will mean that ALL members of a corp are now useful and none are to be unappreciated because a 7 mil sp logi filling a spot in your PC is better than wasting countless time and a 2 mil tax on top of payment for a merc to fill your battles.
SNAP! We all talk about how we want dust and competition to grow, yet we snarf and proto stomp at people not up to skill or sp as us and never recruit them so they feel alienated and quit dust before they can become proper competition. Now EVERYONE is an asset and this will make smaller elite corps that want to hold more districts than 4 or 5 have to begin recruiting, thus making the worker bees work, Dust all of a sudden wakes up. Corps begin recruiting and holding meetings, new players start to get involved. Old players come back to see what the buzz is about, its a win win.
MOAR PC. Now that 1 corporation cannot hold 60 districts to themselves, alliances and different corp start coming together to mass attack high district owners, taking districts away and spreading them out amongst the cosmos, also leaving many new problems to arise such as "Do I attack this 13:45 timer and send my A team to flip it? Or do I send my A team to our 14:20 timer do defend it?" You no longer can defend both with the same 16 BC they are within an hour of each other. Now everyone has 4-15 districts that they can affectively defend/pay ringers for and the completion begins to see who can set up their districts the best to own the most.
ROAR! No more stacking timers. Nyain San has done this for enough time and exploited this idea for much too long with 63 districts all on the samePC timer. With 124 players and 63 battles in one hour, the most NS could possibly keep after 1 day is 15 districts MAX if all blitzed. No offense to them but stacking is an exploit that they are using and all but them complain about, yet they continue to sit back and farm.
NO MORE ALIENATION! Many people have left and quit dust because they are not considered the "A-team" how many times have you gotten teams ready just to have your A team, players A-P (1-16) ready, and players S, V, and X pipe up and say, "Can I play PC? Can I get in? Do you need me?" In which most times your going against the best in Molden Heath so the answer is either "No your not good enough", or " no maybe next time". In which there is no next time. This alienates players and makes them feel under appreciated and leave dust or just turn into a casual "I play dust once a week or so" player. This happened to me personally in both 0uter.Heaven AND D3lta Forc3 , into which d3lta forc3 was dismantled from 1000 players to 100 in less than 2 weeks and 0.H. From 50 to 20 in a week.
Hmmm. The Meta is strong with this one...
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CHANCEtheChAn
0uter.Heaven
37
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Posted - 2014.04.07 00:35:00 -
[70] - Quote
WE GET BETTER! What many of us don't realize is that PC isn't broken like it used to be where 3 fps is the norm and everything glitches. As of 1.8 PC (for the most part) has become stable. People left DUST because we all realized the best 40 is better than a good 400. That we could make more money off of owning 10 districts than a %10 tax. That we could alienate everyone that isn't as good as us and still win and be successful. And in doing so WE broke dust. We all did. You can blame CCP all you want to for this or that. But when it boils down to it bf4 launched ****** and with a bad build and glitches in their PUB matches, and dust did the same thing, glitchy and bad builds. Yet CCP continually works to fix their mistakes which takes months, and battlefield did the same. And in this time we lose hundreds of players, while battlefield gains tens of thousands. Why? CCP can be blamed, but we all share this blame. We are the ones who stacked timers, we are the ones who locked districts, we are the ones who gave up on PC and then decided to take it all. CCP laid out a foundation and we trolled our d*cks all over it and we broke it, and now dust is dying because of what we have done, and ccps slow attempts at fixing it. Now is the time to reciprocate what we have done and fix it before dust bleeds out. Which could be right after fan fest if things don't change.
Bump or quote this with all of your critiques. I know its long, but all good plans are.
I don't mean to attend any corporations with this, its just that escrow, NS, and even my own 0.h. Presented meaningful examples for my purposes.
This isn't perfect, but its a start. And if you are serious about making DUST and PC better which is your job as CPM you will read and critique this Kain. As a CPM and a player, putting your professional opinion first. Getting more people involved with PC is whats wrong with PC as thousands of players do not get the luxury to enjoy PC as many of us get to everyday.
Fix PC, build dust. Build dust, build money. Build money, move to ps4. Move to ps4, possibilities for new weapons, vehicles, maps, gamemodes, features, EvE integration are endless...
Hmmm. The Meta is strong with this one...
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Spartacus Dust
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
280
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Posted - 2014.04.07 00:36:00 -
[71] - Quote
TL;DR
Twitter @Matthew_Dust
Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.
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Killar-12
OLDSPICE.
Top Men.
2549
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Posted - 2014.04.07 00:37:00 -
[72] - Quote
Odigos Ellinas wrote:Killar-12 wrote:Since when was taking the good players and taking over stuff wrong? If the players want to leave your corp it blows but it happens. Good players like to get into PC. The only way right now is joining one of the elite corps.This is the main reason the elite corps can maintain theyr lvl and occurs the monthly paychecks. PC is broken thats a fact the results can be seen through thrall the game, pubs, FW and the economy. The endgame should not be joining a elite corp and stomping pubs. It should be PC for all players that have protofitings. This is not a tournament its supposed to be a part of the eve universe. Oh and good players win battles and not all PC.
I do hate the no alt rule isn't unilaterally enforced but, I'll say this you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, players are people too.
The Econ's the big problem with this I'd say devaluing ISK and Assets that can currently be purchased for ISK/ISK+LP via increasing ISK payouts in battles would be the best step personally it hits everyone but it helps
- New Guys
- Chances of EVE ISK transferred down to DUST
- Give people in the Mid-Tier
Pubs, Add CBs if you want to give a place for people to be competitive who aren't in PC
FW isn't too badly ******
1337 corps ought to have opportunities to make them wanting to do things other than pubs.
How to Leave PC
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3218
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Posted - 2014.04.07 00:38:00 -
[73] - Quote
I'm sorry but any idea to limit freedom of association artificially control relationships between Dusters is just silly. Also arbitrarily forcing a player to not play as much PC as they want is bad design and bad game mechanics.
Again the idea is to improve planetary conquest for everyone not have arbitrary ideas that you feel can counter players playing the game how they choose to.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Odigos Ellinas
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
60
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Posted - 2014.04.07 01:32:00 -
[74] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:Also arbitrarily forcing a player to not play as much PC as they want is bad design and bad game mechanics.
And i don't see how your Proposition are helping to fix this. |
Leither Yiltron
Ahrendee Mercenaries
854
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Posted - 2014.04.07 03:17:00 -
[75] - Quote
So I'd like to preface the response with saying that my objective here is to find the most tolerable place we can get PC1.0 with minimal resources. That seems to be Kane's approach as well. It's pretty obvious by this point that many of the core PC mechanics conspire to create a hostile environment...and the only way that's getting fixed is by redoing PC. Since that's NOT what we're discussing here, these are the things I'm keeping in mind while responding:
1. There's really no hope of a hotfix making ownership of land a relevant, fun, or engaging metagame. That means there's no reason to talk in circles about how to make an environment where big wars and cool dynamics flourish with a hotfix. Simply put, it's more reasonable to give up on this entirely and start from there.
2. Given that lack of background changes, it's unreasonable to expect that any hotfix-able changes can make it common for newer or less elite teams than the current ones to hold land. That they can't at the moment is caused by the mechanics of PC1.0, not just the numbers.
3. The primary objective with PC1.0 then is to put it in a state where a lot more players have the opportunity to engage in frequent, coordinated, competitive fights without facing a gigantic barrier to entry. On the flip side it's a careful balance not to make the barrier too low. If that happens then we'll be left with an equally dead Molden Heath because the current owners will spam out newcomers and current participants alike with bogus attacks.
Okay, on to the response:
Kain Spero wrote:
Turn off clone auto sale or reduced passive clone sales to 60k and increase biomass from battle to 160k
Make it where you only get ISK for clones killed in battle, which will tie up some loose ends potential locking for profit.
I'd like to recommend this go a step farther and recommend flat out making ANY clone sales off districts 0 ISK and leave the biomass value at 100k. It has taken me a long time to come to this conclusion, but I'm resolved that it would be for the best in making PC1.0 modestly tolerable. A note on 100k: really nice proto suits cost around 200k on the high end. As the winner of a match you will receive 200k/death minimum as long as your team has an average 1.0(clone)KDR. Usually it's a good bit more, 100k's a good sweet spot.
Without passive ISK generation the three primary reasons to own districts are (A) bragging rights and (B) free clones (C) choosing battle times. Current landowners would still have an incentive to own districts because:
The clones cost 0ISK/clone rather than 110k/clone
The defenders choose the time of the battle
They make money whenever they win a defense
This would also close the pathetically massive low-risk ISK faucet that PC1.0 has become. Yes, there's plenty of opportunity for attacking your own districts to extract ISK, but this would require MORE labor than locking or the current method of doing nothing. Additionally even if you did lock your own districts with clone moves (clone packs are completely unsustainable) you'd make a whole lot less than you do now. It simply wouldn't be worth it.
The second bullet point quoted is a good suggestion in general. It opens up a few more harassment opportunities involving no-show battles, but it would cement attacking your own districts as an economic impossibility.
In general these changes would make PC1.0 a hilarious ISK-sink if you really wanted to treat it as a war ground. The meta would inevitably involve spending huge pools of ISK on spamming attacks, but that's fine. After all, what are going to do with the districts after you get them?
Kain Spero wrote:
Implement a district transfer function so that a corporation doesn't have to use a clone pack to get into PC and also open up possibilities in terms of how conflicts are resolved outside of battle.
Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even.
To the first, yes. To the second, a bit of discussion. In general mitigating some of the risk factors for the losers in PC is a rather critical piece of encouraging fights. Liquidating loot sounds like it would take a goodly amount of dev time to implement though. I'm more open to something along the lines of a fixed multiplier of the winner's pool paying out to the losers. In effect that makes it cheaper to play, but you still have to lose clones to get the refund. Say around 1/4th of the winner's pool (I'm throwing a number out). As the loser you're going to make 50k/death at a 1.0KDR in this system. To be clear, the winner would still get the full pool.
Kain Spero wrote:
Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece.
For the clone pack sizes and prices, I'd recommend a number in the window from 150-200. Instead of 400k/clone (80m/200 clones) the cost needs to be much lower. I'd say around 135k/clone at least. Otherwise it's just completely unsustainable. Most players by themselves could make 400k (high balling, not profit but pure ISK) in the span of 2 pub matches. If a 16 man team needed to buy 10 clones for each player at the 400k rate, it would take each guy all the ISK from 20 matches to buy them. Just for the pleasure of one PC game with whatever likelihood of losing!
Have a pony
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Leither Yiltron
Ahrendee Mercenaries
854
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Posted - 2014.04.07 03:33:00 -
[76] - Quote
These I don't like:
Kain Spero wrote:
Make clone moves a minimum of 200 clones so that a district is weakened when an attack is launched and help minimize the snowball effect of owning many many districts.
I get that this is an attempt to prevent the recurrence of "spam the clones!" tactics in "big" wars, but I've given up on PC1.0 supporting meaningful wars anyways. With that in mind, upping the minimum clone move hurts players with fewer districts to their name because they have more to lose (as a percentage of holdings) if their district becomes vulnerable. The only thing that's going to stop the current landowners from taking land that they want is a lack of incentive.
Kain Spero wrote:
Explore the idea of opening another Region of space in Dust 514 Planetary Conquest to spur activity, but only if the issues with passive ISK are addressed.
I think that more land is a detriment in two ways.
1. The PC playing community has dwindled so far that Molden Heath barely has a handful of active corps. Even if that number improved, the background mechanics of PC still emphasize and allow for small core teams to hold vast swathes of territory with low risk. Until MH seems active there's no reason to open up more districts that will just stagnate.
2. Since we're anticipating an eventual rework of PC anyways, opening up more territory means more clean up when a proper system gets introduced. Even worse it might make CCP feel obligated to experiment with PC2.0 more widely (geographically) than necessary.
Kain Spero wrote:
Add the ability for any Eve pilot to connect to a district and fire for either team. This would allow freedom of association when it comes to alliance membership and allow Dust matches to be content for all of New Eden.
The Eve-Dust integration is crap, and it's going to remain crap until PC2.0. Molden Heath isn't suddenly going to become a more desirable place to be in Eve with a change like this, so you'd expect the same old guys who are already out here to be the only ones engaged with something like this. Honestly it'd be most likely to bolster the influence of the current land-owning party and little else. That isn't accusatory, mind. I get that we'd all like to see SOME improvement to the Dust-Eve link in PC, but this isn't it.
Have a pony
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CHANCEtheChAn
0uter.Heaven
39
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Posted - 2014.04.07 03:59:00 -
[77] - Quote
[quote=Kain spero Im sorry but any idea to limit freedom of association artificially control relationships between Dusters is just silly. Also arbitrarily forcing a player to not play as much PC as they want is bad design and bad game mechanics.
Again the idea is to improve planetary conquest for everyone not have arbitrary ideas that you feel can counter players playing the game how they choose to.[/quote]
And yet simple PC and handheld free to play games have been using the "you can't play as much as you want" design for decades.
And that is why people stack money into such games.
PLENTY of the MMOs on any device you find now are "do whatever you want up to a certain point" games.
Such as build up your army a little and you can attack 10 other armies. Good now that you've attacked, you need to wait 10 minutes for one attack turn, and can accumulate up to 15. Want to attack now? Pay $1.00 for 15 immediate attack turns.
This has been the business model of all free to plays since windows 98, and yet you say to me that every game like this since the beginning has been wrong? And yet many of these have hundreds of thousands of daily players.
So you know **** these hundreds of thousands of people right? What do the games they play know about keeping them around? by the way and I hear hundreds of ideas daily on how to fix dust and PC and you aren't "fixing" anything by making clone packs cheaper, or having more clones in them, if its still only gonna be the same 16 using those clones packs all damn day everyday while everyone else rots in pub matches all day.
"Again the idea is to improve planetary conquest for Everyone"
And yet all these ideas that are being put in the air is STILL for the top 16 of every corp to compete, and no one else. You all do PC so you are all biased. I am a A-teamer, have been since Chromosome, and so I had to take a step back onto my brothers 7 mil sp apt account to fully understand and not be biased towards this argument.
I'm fairly new to dust, not many friends, no corp. Go into 5 pubs, 3 amb 1 skirm and 1 Dom by myself.
In ambush my team gets raided first by proto Nyain San, Proto AE Kallente and Marauder, and then by Proto Ahrendee.
Lost all 3 battles 58 clones to 180. Total
Only guy on my team to not go even in all 3.
Dom 26-6 with a loss.
Skirm 31-8 with a loss.
All in basic gear.
Okay let's join a corp to help me so I can squad up with people. I want to get into a PC corp so I can train for this new thing I've heard of called PC.
Send an application to Nyain San. Denied.
Send an application to AE. Denied
Send an application to escrow. Denied.
Oh but those are pretty much the only PC corps I see.
Oh wait onslaught inc, they have a district!
Alright guys I'm ready for PC!
"Sorry we already have our 16".
But I wanna play...
" You can't play you don't have enough sp."
Even though at this point I'm doing better than their full proto A reamers in pubs.
So theoretically if you had 2 PCs at the same time could I play PC?
"No lol, we would put in a few B teamers and pay mercs to fill the rest of the spots."
So when will I have enough SP to get into PC?
"WELL, drop a few months of sp with boosters and we will see."
Bam, boom done, a few months of playtime just to get into end-game? This isn't an MMORPG. I don't see any PvE, I don't see any NPCs to talk to. I don't see any dungeons or anything really, I just see months of pub training JUST to build up the sp to afford a proto suit and proto gear just to be PC ready. And that's not counting the experience and knowledge I don't have of pc and current PC A teamers do. So psshhhhh, I'm gone bro see ya. And dust loses another player.
Until you find a potential way for non A teamers to consistently be viably looked at for PC, everyone who is NOT A team will eventually leave dust at the expectancy to never see the light of PC. In my proposal, I give you both. A teamers can still play all the PCs, just set your districts to 1 in every 23 eve timer and only have 23 districts. (Seems like a pretty damn reasonable number of districts) Also, if you wish to take more than 23 effectively, and stack timers reliably without having to pay taxes for ringers, you allow in B teams or C teams into your corps allowing those players to grow with you, allowing your corporation to grow, allowing Dust to grow.
Give me a downside to this or two and I will stop my brain from flowing.
Hmmm. The Meta is strong with this one...
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3219
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Posted - 2014.04.07 11:24:00 -
[78] - Quote
Egypt Musk wrote:Kain Spero wrote:
Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece.
This is a sure fire way to bankrupt smaller corps and and keep PC stagnant as it is. One should not be penalized for wanting to attack you should be able to purchase attack clones by number at the price of 100k -150k per clone up to as many that are on the district being attacked
The sure fire way to bankrupt small corps is to leave the 120 clones at 36 million ISK in place. The current mass attacks being planed by various groups will fail miserably. Also, you make clone pack clones as cheap as district clones not even landholders would ever use their districts. For there to be balance clone packs have to have a drawback either in price or clone cost.
Not to mention a price that low on clone pack clones would just end a new era of locking..
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3219
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Posted - 2014.04.07 12:57:00 -
[79] - Quote
Leither Yiltron wrote:
To the first, yes. To the second, a bit of discussion. In general mitigating some of the risk factors for the losers in PC is a rather critical piece of encouraging fights. Liquidating loot sounds like it would take a goodly amount of dev time to implement though. I'm more open to something along the lines of a fixed multiplier of the winner's pool paying out to the losers. In effect that makes it cheaper to play, but you still have to lose clones to get the refund. Say around 1/4th of the winner's pool (I'm throwing a number out). As the loser you're going to make 50k/death at a 1.0KDR in this system. To be clear, the winner would still get the full pool.
That's a really good point. The loot idea has been something that has been bugging me for a while, but I think this idea is infinitely better considering the potential Dev time needed. Especially if this could be hotfixed.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Bear D'Grassi
Forsaken Immortals
Top Men.
68
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Posted - 2014.04.07 12:59:00 -
[80] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote:Good ideas, 200 clone Clone Packs would truly make battles a lot more exciting. I would know cause we've been fighting you guys and 120 clones goes away pretty fast lol
+1 120 Clones it utter crap and a waste of ISK. It has to get changed.
Couldn't agree more.
Not even if I tried my absolute hardest.
Profile damping on my Gallente scout is so good I can't even find it to put it on!
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
3288
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Posted - 2014.04.07 13:54:00 -
[81] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:Egypt Musk wrote:Kain Spero wrote:
Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece.
This is a sure fire way to bankrupt smaller corps and and keep PC stagnant as it is. One should not be penalized for wanting to attack you should be able to purchase attack clones by number at the price of 100k -150k per clone up to as many that are on the district being attacked I think long term the price is good, but it HAS to be cheaper to involve corps that have yet to or no longer participate in PC for some period of time upon release. The only way the clone pack cost structure is viable long term (particularly if you go to 200x packs) is to find a way for corps to earn ISK outside tax grinds in pubs. FW and PC are huge drains on ISK...the pubs alone can't keep up with that ISK sink and the passive ISK generation of current district owners. If you had PVE that could be used for corp contracts...that might be something. Not sure what the answer its but the ISK balance is maybe the most ugly thing going in PC in the long term.
You are touching on a major issue that I believe has led to the erosion of squad/team play in Dust. This mythical need for the ISK sink has turned a lot of Dust players into accountants instead of warriors.
ML Director
Eve Toon - Raylan Scott
Level 3 Forum Warrior
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kiarbanor
S.e.V.e.N.
General Tso's Alliance
367
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Posted - 2014.04.07 14:41:00 -
[82] - Quote
Please excuse the wall of text you may or may not read, but I think these suggestions are easy and can be implemented in hot fixes:
First, there has to be a complete wipe of Molden Heath. Sorry, Big Blue Donut, but if we want any type of PC to work, we have to start with a fresh slate. Once this wipe happens, we have another land grab; however, every corporation that wants a district can only buy one during this period of time. After the district is selected, the corporation has to make four decisions:
(1).When do you want your district to be open to attack?
a.You have to select a two hour window
b.You have to select three days that this window is open
c.Once this is established, every district owned by this particular corporation has the same two hour window and the same days
d.You can change this at any point for $$$$
(2).What mode do you want this district to be?
a.You can select Skirm, Dom, or Ambush
b.You can change this at any point for $$$$
c.Every district owned by the corp can have a different mode
(3).What limit do you want to set for mercs?
a.You can establish a district for 6+ mercs, which means that the defending force only has to provide 6 players.
b.If you select anything less than 16, the attacking force can choose to bring +1 to the battle; for instance, IGÇÖm attacking a district that is set at 8. The defending force can have a max of 8 players defend, but I can bring 9, if I want.
(4).Is this your GÇ£home baseGÇ¥?
a.If you decide this district is your home base, you label it as such
b.Once the district is labeled as home base, it opens certain abilities; for example, you can have more than one purchased structure on the district
c.You can only have one home base at a time
I wanted to outline these easy fixes before discussing why I think they will bring about quick and positive change to PC. By selecting the two hour window and three days for this window to be openGÇöwith all districts owned by the same corp having the same window/daysGÇöthis stops corps with small (elite) mercs to own too much land. The key is that you no longer have 24 hoursGÇÖ notice of attack. If your district is online, you can be attacked with only 5 minutesGÇÖ notice.
Selecting a mode will increase tactics and overall enjoyment, in my opinion. If you want victory or defeat to be quick and painless, select Ambush. We should have that option as district owners. I think this selection can be by districts owned, too. So, every district that we own can be a different mode.
The limit of mercs adds another strategic piece to the PC puzzle, but more than anything, it allows small corps to enter PC and compete. What IGÇÖve found is that itGÇÖs extremely hard to get 16 PC guys into a corporation unless youGÇÖre willing to accept anyone at the possible detriment to your corpGÇÖs values. LetGÇÖs allow small corps to remain true to their values and still be competitive. I also love the +1 idea here because that will stop these GÇ£eliteGÇ¥ corps from setting all their districts to 6 mercs, in order to spread their small numbers out.
The home base idea is crucial because it should be very hard to completely kick any corp out of PC. If I stack a couple production facilities on my home base (which will cost $$$$), I will have a garrison that can withstand multiple attacks in the 2 hour window. Also, with these large garrisons, epic battles will unfold that last well beyond the 2 hour window because I would keep the ability to re-attack as long as you have more than 200 clones.
I think we should promote as much GÇ£corp onlyGÇ¥ fights as possible, too. I like alliances; I like the idea behind them. But they should never take the place of having all the same corp tags on the scoreboard. In order to promote this loyalty, I say that if you attack or defend with only people from your corp, you get a 10-20% bonus in clone count. If you bring in just one person without your corp tags, you simply donGÇÖt get this bonus.
As for getting EvE more integratedGÇöin a quick fixGÇöI say we look at this corp bonus, too. If you have a ship with your corp tags in space, able to drop orbitals, you should see a decrease in 25% of the timer between OBs.
Until someone can figure out something different, I think ISK should be generated by each district. The problem right now is that itGÇÖs too easy for a corp of 20 mercs to own 40 districts and simply sit on the isk. With the quick changes I detailed above, 20 mercs wonGÇÖt be able to properly defend 40 districts that are online 2 hours over three days. |
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2017
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Posted - 2014.04.07 14:42:00 -
[83] - Quote
Couple of thoughts here. Owning land should be profitable, which means passive isk needs to be part of it. The big selling point for Dust is that you'll fight to keep something you built. Without some means of earning a profit from owning land, why do you want to take it in the first place? If the answer is prestige and bragging rights then the battles are as meaningful as a Quake deathmatch. That idea turns owning land into glorified pub matches. I don't want to take control of territory so I can pound my chest and yell about how great we are. I want to take it because that particular piece of territory provides a strategic and fiscal advantage - something it needs to do on both the Dust and Eve sides.
Now, my main point. Reading through this thread the biggest problem seems to be that a very tiny number of players can control massive territories and collect all that isk. It seems to me that the biggest issue is that Dust mercs don't exist in New Eden, but on some ethereal plane that lets us teleport anywhere. This is a big problem that the Dust team needs to figure out a design for in general so that we feel like we actually exist in New Eden, but in PC it would drastically change the strategic landscape.
For example, lets say that your corp owns districts in MH. What I propose, until a proper transportation method is created, is that if you want to participate in PC that you have to select one of your districts as your home base. When you do this, your local changes to that system. You can change your home once a day (or two, or whatever), and another corp can invite you to base out of their district. If a battle occurs anywhere in that system, or a neighboring one no problem...you can deploy into that battle. If you're on a research lab SI, you can go one or two jumps further. This one simple change would drastically increase the opportunity for players to participate in PC. You wouldn't be able to have a handful of guys run around and throw piles of ringers into battles all over the place. You could still use ringers, but you'd have to do more than press a couple buttons and it would commit the ringer to your location for a while meaning they can't fight elsewhere.
Some kind of similar treatment would need to happen with clone packs. Letting them only attack within a certain distance of Genolution stations, or something like that. It would be ridiculously cool if something like this was part of Dust. We'd have news reports about the opening of a second front in a war, etc.
PC 1.0 was a science experiment and it's been a big fail. I think the whole thing really needs to be scrapped and replaced with something better, but making your location matter would go a long way toward making the system we have now actually interesting. |
Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
1866
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Posted - 2014.04.07 14:47:00 -
[84] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Couple of thoughts here. Owning land should be profitable, which means passive isk needs to be part of it.
This isn't true.
It should, in fact, cost money to hold a district. However, active combat in PC should be extremely profitable. So your income comes from actively using the district, either via attacking or defending and winning. This encourages people to fight instead of sitting on what they have. Therefore, you want to massively increase the payout in PC for clones lost in combat, while massively nerfing the payout of excess clones generated from holding the district (or eliminating it entirely). Then you have more reason to fight than to blue up.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Evolution-7
The Rainbow Effect
Negative-Feedback
431
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Posted - 2014.04.07 14:47:00 -
[85] - Quote
Sir Snugglz wrote:Instead of opening up another region why not unlock more planets???
only 1 out of 10 or so planets per system are being used...
But snugglz, CCP will have to deliver the promise they made ages ago, real lava and ice/gas planets. Not just some generic mood setting!
Veteran Pilot
"Fight on and fly on to the last drop of blood and the last drop of fuel, to the last beat of the heart."
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2017
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Posted - 2014.04.07 14:59:00 -
[86] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:Couple of thoughts here. Owning land should be profitable, which means passive isk needs to be part of it. This isn't true. It should, in fact, cost money to hold a district. However, active combat in PC should be extremely profitable. So your income comes from actively using the district, either via attacking or defending and winning. This encourages people to fight instead of sitting on what they have. Therefore, you want to massively increase the payout in PC for clones lost in combat, while massively nerfing the payout of excess clones generated from holding the district (or eliminating it entirely). Then you have more reason to fight than to blue up.
Fighting as the only income source makes it a glorified pub match, and it only works when mercs are gods who can be everywhere at once. If you were smart and captured territory in such a way that you had districts that were difficult to attack, you should receive some kind of profit from those districts. The fact of the matter is that taking districts is a HUGE investment and I shouldn't have to hope for people to attack me and us to win in order to see a return on that investment. That would make it a bad investment, since there is no guaranteed date for when you'll go into the black.
The only way this would work is if there was a taxable form of PVE available on the districts. This could become the kind of timerless PC fight so many people have been begging for. ie: people are roaming around on a district hunting drones and suddenly, bam...ambushed! No risk of losing your land while you're asleep, but the attackers could do a small amount of damage and make some isk out of it. |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
3288
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 15:10:00 -
[87] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:Couple of thoughts here. Owning land should be profitable, which means passive isk needs to be part of it. This isn't true. It should, in fact, cost money to hold a district. However, active combat in PC should be extremely profitable. So your income comes from actively using the district, either via attacking or defending and winning. This encourages people to fight instead of sitting on what they have. Therefore, you want to massively increase the payout in PC for clones lost in combat, while massively nerfing the payout of excess clones generated from holding the district (or eliminating it entirely). Then you have more reason to fight than to blue up. Fighting as the only income source makes it a glorified pub match, and it only works when mercs are gods who can be everywhere at once. If you were smart and captured territory in such a way that you had districts that were difficult to attack, you should receive some kind of profit from those districts. The fact of the matter is that taking districts is a HUGE investment and I shouldn't have to hope for people to attack me and us to win in order to see a return on that investment. That would make it a bad investment, since there is no guaranteed date for when you'll go into the black. The only way this would work is if there was a taxable form of PVE available on the districts. This could become the kind of timerless PC fight so many people have been begging for. ie: people are roaming around on a district hunting drones and suddenly, bam...ambushed! No risk of losing your land while you're asleep, but the attackers could do a small amount of damage and make some isk out of it.
Perhaps passive ISK and bonuses can be added at a time when more people are participating. Right now there are so few participating that 5 or 6 A teams have completely taken over MH.
ML Director
Eve Toon - Raylan Scott
Level 3 Forum Warrior
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Klivve Cussler
S.e.V.e.N.
General Tso's Alliance
228
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Posted - 2014.04.07 16:26:00 -
[88] - Quote
I have only participated in a few matches of PC, but I thought that allowing a corp that holds a district to attack via clone packs kind of broke the system right off the bat. You could see the game theory behind the PC battle system - it had a kind of Risk'esque feel to it - and once they changed the clone pack purchase rules (which they did just a couple of days before PC launched by player demand) all of their calculations and simulations went out the window.
In general, you want to keep the system dynamic and fluid, but not frustrating, so that means:
1. There's enough territory
2. It should be easy to hold a small number of districts
3. The more districts you hold, the more vulnerable they become. (this happens in eve by virtue of upkeep payments and the fact that attacks can come at any time.
4. Districts can be a positive revenue if utilized, and a negative revenue (ie a cost) if not.
5. Some districts are worth more than others.
1. Right now, there's not enough territory, so I agree we need to open it up.
2-5 need an economy of some sort. Maybe a rental cost determined by the number of districts you hold. Maybe a PI structure that makes isk, at the expense of making clones.
I disagree that PC is Dust's endgame. But I also disagree that Eve's sov battles are its endgame. No doubt it's the "Big Leagues", but endgame implies that everyone is headed there. I'm content with my quickmatches and the occassional FW fight. Heck, most of the time, I don't even squad up. (I know the advantages, but I get called away from the PS3 sometimes, and I hate to abbandon a squad).
But even though I don't play in PC, I don't think it should be possible to sweep all the districts. The system should either make the cost of doiing so outweigh the advantages, or make some districts "poor cousins" not worth of the big boys (and thus giving the little guys a way in.) |
Laiod Klan
Providence Guard
Templis CALSF
7
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Posted - 2014.04.07 16:39:00 -
[89] - Quote
What we need is a whole new system for PC, the current system is a bad location for anything really.
America is becoming a police state.
I traverse the universe in a warp field.
http://en.spaceengine.org/
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
851
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Posted - 2014.04.07 18:16:00 -
[90] - Quote
The problem with PC battles is that there is absolutely ZERO benefit for Eve players to be part of PC other than helping the corp. Take the districts and make them valuable, add Eve to Dust and vice versa transfers available and let people fight over them, add more districts. For all of "two lines of code" as per Hilmar during the last fanfest we could have more districts.
LogiGod earns his pips
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