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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3249
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Posted - 2014.04.06 15:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:Traky78 wrote: 80 millions for 200 clones is too much, 60 millions will be much better.
I'm concerned if the price is too low and the clone pack to0 useful we'll just end up with everyone using clone packs rather than their districts. The higher price also makes sure that locking with clones packs is done at a significant loss.
I like the ideas from the OP, I will edit the post after visiting the link but thought I'd share some things I see as vital.
I think the price of clone packs should start out low and should fluctuate based on the participation levels in PC. I think that buying a clone pack as a land holding corp should come with a penalty.
I also think that utilizing ringers should come at a cost. Call it a clone programming fee. Incentivizing corps to use their own players is better for the long term vibrancy of PC. Maybe this is an area to introduce a corporation management skill to lower your hiring corporation's "tax" burden for using ringers for the mercenary corps out there. I think that mercenary groups should work more like war decs in Eve rather than seeing 15 players coming from outside the corporation who's tag is identified with a given battle. As in Merc corps would be hired to attack districts and being hired to defend a district less common.
On the back end of this there needs to another place outside of PC where full team deploy is possible.
EDIT: Visited the link
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3252
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Posted - 2014.04.06 17:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
BursegSardaukar wrote:I like the idea of dropping the passive ISK generation. If a district fills up, the clones should stop being produced and the owner should have to manually sell them, which opens the district to attack.
But I think even that isn't going quite far enough. District ownership should have a sov bill that escalates each day if the clones are not sold off. The longer the district can't produce its full amount, the more the bill increases until a weekly cap. This bill should start at a point where selling the daily clone generation would turn a profit, but if the cap is hit, the cost is about twice what the district produces a day. So sitting happy on a district is discouraged.
And after the market opens up, clone sales shouldn't be automatic to an npc corp, they should be placed on the open market where the demand of pc fights will dictate their value.
Eventually the value from owning a district should be tied to pve being done on the district, and the clone generation should be for attacks less than isk.
Now that is a good idea.
If PC became as dead as it is now people would be giving away clones hoping for a battle instead of generating billions of ISK.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3254
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Posted - 2014.04.06 17:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Eugene Killmore wrote:Red Star fully supports kain speros proposed changes to PC mechanics. Even if you dont like his alliance or his plans for PC these changes would give the smaller corps a fighting chance and would make PC much more exciting. Everyone needs to like and bump this thread so CCP takes notice and actually makes a positive change for once.
The 2 most important changes to me are
* Increasing clone packs to 200 clones (120 is just silly)
* Opening up additional regions (Molden Heath is to small)
I'm not sure if opening up more regions is necessary. I think they should liquidate the clones on districts plus the cost of a clone pack and wipe ownership in MH.
In my opinion the #1 reason why a 100% takeover of MH was possible is the lack of participation in PC. Over the last 11 months the poor mechanics and game performance dwindled the numbers down. This isn't to take away from the skill and dominance of Those on top, just a realization that is easy to see if one is being honest with his/herself.
This way owners don't get screwed out of what they earned, but we get to start anew. I think for the opening weeks of PC 2.0 that clone packs should only be available to non district holders and they should be cheaper than normal. Call it an event, but the Dust community as a whole has to get more involved for PC to grow into something great.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3254
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Posted - 2014.04.06 17:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
Egypt Musk wrote:Kain Spero wrote:
Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece.
This is a sure fire way to bankrupt smaller corps and and keep PC stagnant as it is. One should not be penalized for wanting to attack you should be able to purchase attack clones by number at the price of 100k -150k per clone up to as many that are on the district being attacked
I think long term the price is good, but it HAS to be cheaper to involve corps that have yet to or no longer participate in PC for some period of time upon release.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3261
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Posted - 2014.04.06 20:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Eugene Killmore wrote:Flyingconejo wrote:@Kain
You are missing the real problems PC has. Those problems are passive isk generation and unlimited force projection, that allows a corp to chain fights with the same players all around Molden Heath instantly.
Those problems are inherent to PC 1.0 design. You can make all the small patches and fixes you want, but the current PC situation wont change because PC 1.0 is broken at its core. Even if DNS breaks after fanfest, Molden Heath will always be dominated by the 4-5 top corps of the moment.
Opening more districts would solve nothing. Those corps would have just double the districts they have now, with double the isk.
In my opinion, wasting development resources in PC 1.0 would be a mistake, because it is unfixable. Just focus in PC 2.0 and pray they don't screw it up.
Also, I have a question. Are your proposals coming from Kain the CPM or from Kain the player? Because, honestly, some of your proposals seem to be made by the player.
Making the transfer of districts easier, or making easier the use of mercenary eve pilots, are things that would be of benefit to a very small part of the playerbase.
As Kain the player, it is legit for you to push for changes that benefit your game goals. But as CPM, I would prefer you to push CCP to dedicate the development resources they have to things that would make the game better for the entire playerbase, instead of 1%.
There is nothing wrong if you are pushing for these changes as Kain the player, but you should make it clear in the OP. So the problem is better players can beat crappy players? Thats every fps ever made. Step 1 of fixing pc is making clone packs a option for those without districts. Cus right now its impossible to compete in pc without districts.
I don't think anyone wants easy mode. But the balance of experience and skill of those still involved in PC vs the rest of Dust is off the charts.
I continue to see proposals that still favor small elite groups and I truly don't understand how anyone expects PC to flourish without an exponential increase in participation from the playerbase. If the mechanics need to be more harsh then tweak the mechanics, but I'd rather see bumper rails on the lanes for a while to boost participation.
Something has to be done to water down the overwhelming amount of talent at the top. If that means cheap clone packs to allow the a Dust community to take their shots at the big boys over and over then so be it. Perhaps I'm off base, but I think step one is making PC more attainable and playable sooner. For example Corp A is new and has 16 players online, they should be able to buy a clone pack and participate in a battle within the hour.
If Corp A is smart they'll hit someone with stacked timers to be able to deal with the B or C team. Not 24-48 hours when they only have 5 guys on and they'll be facing 16 dudes with 8+ KDRs for the month.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3288
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Posted - 2014.04.07 13:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:Egypt Musk wrote:Kain Spero wrote:
Increase Clone Pack Size to 200 Clones at 80 million ISK a piece.
This is a sure fire way to bankrupt smaller corps and and keep PC stagnant as it is. One should not be penalized for wanting to attack you should be able to purchase attack clones by number at the price of 100k -150k per clone up to as many that are on the district being attacked I think long term the price is good, but it HAS to be cheaper to involve corps that have yet to or no longer participate in PC for some period of time upon release. The only way the clone pack cost structure is viable long term (particularly if you go to 200x packs) is to find a way for corps to earn ISK outside tax grinds in pubs. FW and PC are huge drains on ISK...the pubs alone can't keep up with that ISK sink and the passive ISK generation of current district owners. If you had PVE that could be used for corp contracts...that might be something. Not sure what the answer its but the ISK balance is maybe the most ugly thing going in PC in the long term.
You are touching on a major issue that I believe has led to the erosion of squad/team play in Dust. This mythical need for the ISK sink has turned a lot of Dust players into accountants instead of warriors.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3288
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:Couple of thoughts here. Owning land should be profitable, which means passive isk needs to be part of it. This isn't true. It should, in fact, cost money to hold a district. However, active combat in PC should be extremely profitable. So your income comes from actively using the district, either via attacking or defending and winning. This encourages people to fight instead of sitting on what they have. Therefore, you want to massively increase the payout in PC for clones lost in combat, while massively nerfing the payout of excess clones generated from holding the district (or eliminating it entirely). Then you have more reason to fight than to blue up. Fighting as the only income source makes it a glorified pub match, and it only works when mercs are gods who can be everywhere at once. If you were smart and captured territory in such a way that you had districts that were difficult to attack, you should receive some kind of profit from those districts. The fact of the matter is that taking districts is a HUGE investment and I shouldn't have to hope for people to attack me and us to win in order to see a return on that investment. That would make it a bad investment, since there is no guaranteed date for when you'll go into the black. The only way this would work is if there was a taxable form of PVE available on the districts. This could become the kind of timerless PC fight so many people have been begging for. ie: people are roaming around on a district hunting drones and suddenly, bam...ambushed! No risk of losing your land while you're asleep, but the attackers could do a small amount of damage and make some isk out of it.
Perhaps passive ISK and bonuses can be added at a time when more people are participating. Right now there are so few participating that 5 or 6 A teams have completely taken over MH.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3291
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Posted - 2014.04.07 19:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:The problem with PC battles is that there is absolutely ZERO benefit for Eve players to be part of PC other than helping the corp. Take the districts and make them valuable, add Eve to Dust and vice versa transfers available and let people fight over them, add more districts. For all of "two lines of code" as per Hilmar during the last fanfest we could have more districts.
Edit: Not just PC district transfers but asset transfers, isk transfers and a market to sell goods...the game is broken without any of this stuff, there is a serious problem stop trying to hotfix the stuff that needs real coding time.
Those fuel bonuses are great if you have a POS in system, but I'd be surprised if there is a single corp in Dust/Eve that is taking advantage of it.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3291
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Posted - 2014.04.07 19:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Spartacus Dust wrote:CEO of a corporation, a corporation is a business, it's job is to make isk to use towards a common goal. Anyone could have done what Kane did, no one did it though.
Before you go patting them on the back too hard, it took nearly a year for the PC community to largely stop participating for this to happen. How hard do you think it was to convince FA, RND, AE, and NS to join up with Kain and Co when they were the only ones really fighting each other?
"Hey dudes, why spend ISK fighting each other when we can print ISK?"
You think that is some kind of diplomatic accomplishment?
Eon did it when there was a lot going on.
Back then you had:
Synergy Gaming Red Star Giant Generals Team Players RND Ill Omens Pure Innocence forgetting others
Outside of Eon you had: Outer Heaven Hellstorm KEQ Southern Legion Seraphim What the French Pro Hic
and many others
I conservatively guessed in another thread that we had (prior to the donut) 1/10th of the participation in PC that we had nearly a year ago. This is largely the reason we started locking. There was no strategy in empire building, it was who hired the best set of ringers the quickest.
The donut is simply an ISK printing scheme that is taking advantage of a dead game mode.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3291
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Posted - 2014.04.07 19:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tallen Ellecon wrote:No passive ISK Multiple clone pack prices and sizes. No passive ISK No passive ISK
You have to work the land to profit from it. Whether that means PVE or simply tying income soley to fighting.
Did you check out Pokey's thread?
That is what we all need to get behind
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3318
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Posted - 2014.04.09 01:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
Arirana wrote:There needs to be another counter implemented to deal with district locking if clone packs are going to be made at a reasonable price. Maybe if much like the timer on attacks and defenses in the battlefinder, the star map showed a timer on each district counting down to when it can be attacked; aka it's window.
There would probably be 4 modes on the timer, one for when it's already under attack counting down to when the battle will take place, one for when the battle is going on, one for when the battle is over and there is x amount of time left until it can be attacked again, and one for when it is online.
Perhaps giving everyone this info would make guess work less enjoyable (if anyone actually enjoys it) so I was thinking that adding a certain district infrastructure or some kind of optional upgrade that allowed you to scan districts in your system/constellation/region (whichever would be more balanced) of their timers. Making it view-able to everyone would take less work for a hotfix for the time being though.
Locking wouldn't be an issue if the numbers were tweaked to make attacking and winning the most profitable action. Also make clone packs only available to non-landholders. If the primary advantage of having a district were being able to attack with more clones it changes everything. If you also introduced the window timers and 30 minute spawns of battles you have a game mode that is going to be played by a much larger portion of our playerbase.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3322
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:
Locking wouldn't be an issue if the numbers were tweaked to make attacking and winning the most profitable action. Also make clone packs only available to non-landholders. If the primary advantage of having a district were being able to attack with more clones it changes everything. If you also introduced the window timers and 30 minute spawns of battles you have a game mode that is going to be played by a much larger portion of our playerbase.
Again, alt corps would make this a silly thing to try and implement. Example: you have Corp A and Corp B in an alliance but only Corp A has land. Under this setup Corp A hold the land and Corp B launches the clone packs.
That's fine, as I wrote it doesn't matter as long as the attacking is where the real ISK is made. You'd be changing the reward structure, thus removing any incentive to lock. It would be so fluid that it wouldn't matter.
And I don't think this is necessarily a long term solution, but it would help level out that learning curve that is holding back the other 99% of Dust players from PC. I think PC has to be noobed up a bit for it to grow into something interesting. The Dust playerbase isn't even remotely prepared for the high stakes of the current PC mechanics.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3322
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:We can buy as many clone packs as we want without penalty for a good reason, it's impossible to actually stop us from buying them using shell corporations. I think the solution there isn't to limit the purchase of them, but limit the usefulness of them without making them weak.
Something like this: buff the number of clones in the pack, but only allow them to be deployed to planets within 2 jumps of a Genolution station or highsec. If you want to own large chunks of territory then, you need to attack and defend with the clones you made yourself. This makes the lab bonus meaningful, limits the usefulness of them but still gives new corps the chance to carve out a piece of the pie at the edge of the region.
I think the problems of PC can be boiled down to the fact that the design was built around the idea of location / geography being an important factor, and then the system we got threw that part out the window. Without that the mechanics required to make it work at all caused the system to become unstable and collapse.
I agree on that note, I'm not hung up on whether you should be able to buy packs as a landholder or not. I just want to see mechanics that create a fluid system. One that doesn't reward a 30 man super corp that can turn off their PS4 and log into Dust for 45 minutes and keep their thumb on the other 99% of Dust.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3341
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Posted - 2014.04.11 15:18:00 -
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Odigos Ellinas wrote:Kain Spero wrote:Odigos Ellinas wrote:"Add an option at the end of battle to liquidate loot for ISK, so that even when a battle is lost you still have a way to make ISK out of it or come close to breaking even."
This should be temporary solution until player market is aded to the game.
And can i have a answer for my timer question.
Why not shorter timers ??? It will force corporations to recruits more players and send them to PC battles. This way a larger player base can participate in PC. The end goal is to have fights and "surprise" we're fighting now isn't really a great mechanic. People have real lives and should be given the chance to schedule out how to respond to starting a fight or setting up a defense. The other side of this is that the timers as they are give a chance for the organization needed to occur between both Eve and Dust. This would be especially true if Orbital Support is opened up beyond the chains of alliance membership. The curent timer alows a small part of the players to excile the majority of players. Opening new systems means giving the small elite more districts. All you need is a good A team. Reducing the timer a corporation will need more then 1 A team. Thats how it works in eve POS (main ISK producers) can be attacked any time. The 24hour timer for the ownership of the system starts after the POS are destroyed. Thats why in Eve small elite corps are working like pirates with random raids and not like large system owners. If you want to hold a system you need alot of members. That should be the same in dust. Now we have a 80% of players with protofittings playing in pubs against new players. Find a way to get protofitting players in to PC.
He doesn't want to hear that, but It's honestly a nobrainer for CCP to implement this because it opens up PC to so many more players.
If you were able to set a window of downtime for a district (let's say 8 hours) this would give a corporation the ability to cover a timeframe that they aren't likely to have people on for battles. Outside of that window, it's game time. You either have people on or you don't.
But like I said, they don't want this. It would require them to recruit and maintain more players. God forbid they have to add a player with a KDR under 4.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3341
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Posted - 2014.04.11 15:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote: He doesn't want to hear that, but It's honestly a nobrainer for CCP to implement this because it opens up PC to so many more players.
If you were able to set a window of downtime for a district (let's say 8 hours) this would give a corporation the ability to cover a timeframe that they aren't likely to have people on for battles. Outside of that window, it's game time. You either have people on or you don't.
But like I said, they don't want this. It would require them to recruit and maintain more players. God forbid they have to add a player with a KDR under 4. Eh, not really. We actually had a case where I was sick and wasn't able to distribute the fight card, so folks weren't ready or expecting matches. I logged in and two of those matches were right on top of each other and we only had minutes to prep. We assembled two teams and dealt with both with one actually being a district attack, which resulted in us flipping the district. I'm sure attack windows could be handled just fine by DNS, but honestly this ends up turning the game into a job. You MUST be on every day to defend districts over these X hours is just not a good way to do it. Dust 514 is still a lobby shooter and that is best experience when you have two full teams facing off against each other. Now I could see it where you combine a timer and a window with the window fight allowing the attackers to make money and if they press the attack it triggers the timer and then it becomes a fight for the district. Again, I'm not sure I like the attack windows idea, but I'll try to poke around and see how much that could be implemented in a hot fix.
To be quite honest it's the only way for the vast majority of Dust players and corps to deal with you guys. At some point I'd hope that more players would be skilled enough to win a straight up match against you.
But honestly, you play in pubs. And you've played against a lot of corps in PC. It's like JV vs the Pro Bowl team right now and without team deploy or some way to practice and repair that is something not likely to change for a LONG time.
Think of it as a buffer between a low skilled playerbase and tournament champ teams in the hope that the skill level can increase by the time some real Eve/Dust mechanics are introduced.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3341
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Posted - 2014.04.11 16:14:00 -
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I don't mind being the guy asking to noob up PC. It has to happen at some point. Something has to be done for the MASSIVE mistake of releasing PC without some way to practice for it.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
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Posted - 2014.04.11 19:47:00 -
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Kain Spero wrote:The system still needs to be balanced and adding mechanics that will add long term problems isn't the best course. I don't think the mechanics should go out of their way to punish players for being good.
I put out some pokes about the window issue and I'm also in the process of getting a meeting set with CCP so these issues can be discussed. When I hear something back about how much the timers can be manipulated I'll let you know. We just need to be careful we don't swing the pendulum so far one direction that it becomes the blob always wins or Planetary Conquest becomes something you MUST do every day to keep your district. Agreed, but that pendulum is steered in the opposite direction of blob.
I don't think there's a finer example than the donut.
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