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[Poll] General Consensus about Cloaks

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I-Shayz-I I-----I 2798	Posted - 2014.04.03 18:44:00 - [1] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: -Shotgun and cloak is OP and ridiculous. No 2 ways about it. -Fluxes should disable cloak for a short period not random bulletspray. -Keep the animation the same but don't allow fire until fully visible The stamina nature of cloaking is fine. You can see a cloaked scout plain as day as he runs around. The muzzle flashes from most weapons is what makes cloaked enemies hard to hit as you lose them in the strobe. I pulled this from another thread here, and will be pulling some more suggestions from that thread, as well as adding some more ideas as to possible changes. What I would like to see is what the community thinks is most important, so I'm creating this poll to help us see that. This is a multiple answer poll so please choose as many as you think are needed. http://poll.pollcode.com/38898533 Please post any other ideas not currently in the poll down below. Links: 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! I make logistics videos!
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 1007	Posted - 2014.04.03 18:57:00 - [2] - Quote How far into 1.8 are we ??? This is way to early to call nerfs on Cloaking At the beginning of 1.7, HAV's were dominating by far, but due to players Adapting to using AV roles they were dealt with easily enough, bar some Scouts are only learning how to use this cloak that for once, actually does what it should The Cloak/Shotgunners in majority are the same guys who would be stomping in any FOTM Nerfing cloaks hurts Scouts, who finally fill a unique role on the battlefield in Dust514 Rather than jumping straight on Forums to QQ for nerfs, try adapting.... Scouts being invisible adds a whole new layer of CQC to our gaming While being tough to deal with, this is early days yet....... Squad up, watch each others back, there's your cloak nerf right there 'D1CK by name' 'D1CK by nature'
Toby Flenderson research lab 435	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:02:00 - [3] - Quote The people who are complaining don't care enough to counter cloaks using precision enhancers or scanners. A corpmate of mine uses to complex precision enhancers and manages to see most cloaked scouts. It might suck for health but that's the price you pay for countering basically an entire strategy of many enemies. Even if one person does this in a squad and sticks together, passive scans can protect you. Having a designated scan scout can save the squad from minjas easily. I say let it play out and eventually if there is no nerf people will adapt and sacrifice their up tank for precision
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2799	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:05:00 - [4] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Squad up, watch each others back, there's your cloak nerf right there Then why don't scouts have to squad up in order to be effective? Why don't scouts have to look behind them and use their eyes? Yeah sure I could do all these things that people keep telling me to do, but instead I can skill into scouts in order to: -See where the enemy is at all times -Not be detected easily -Play by myself -Get kills before anyone else can -Run away without fear of someone chasing me -Counter other scouts easily Yet if I want to play ANY other roles I have to adapt in so many ways to counter scouts. Using tactics to counter scouts all the time is like carrying around swarm launchers or forge guns all the time because I have to always be prepared to counter a tank. Links: 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! I make logistics videos!
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 989	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:07:00 - [5] - Quote Left mine there (can't auto swap to disable cloak and shoot immediately). SP gate to use cloaks as a Scout needs to lessen. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Dauth Jenkins Ultramarine Corp 383	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:07:00 - [6] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: How far into 1.8 are we ??? This is way to early to call nerfs on Cloaking At the beginning of 1.7, HAV's were dominating by far, but due to players Adapting to using AV roles they were dealt with easily enough, bar some Scouts are only learning how to use this cloak that for once, actually does what it should The Cloak/Shotgunners in majority are the same guys who would be stomping in any FOTM Nerfing cloaks hurts Scouts, who finally fill a unique role on the battlefield in Dust514 Rather than jumping straight on Forums to QQ for nerfs, try adapting.... Scouts being invisible adds a whole new layer of CQC to our gaming While being tough to deal with, this is early days yet....... Squad up, watch each others back, there's your cloak nerf right there No, it needs to disabled by a flux grenade. And they should decloak before shooting, or else your just dying before you know what's going on. That was the reason CCP increased TTK, so that you have a chance to, at the very least, turn around and see your attacker. In exchange, I do believe shotguns could use a slight range buff. Just my 2 isk -Sincerely --The Dual Swarm Commando
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2799	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:08:00 - [7] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: Having a designated scan scout can save the squad from minjas easily. That's like saying you need a designated tank in your squad in order to counter other tanks -_- Links: 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! I make logistics videos!
Mossellia Delt Militaires Sans Jeux 1115	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:09:00 - [8] - Quote Nothing wrong with cloaks, other then brick tanking with them Join the Channel - CPM1 Candidates - Get to know who's running. Delt for CPM1
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 1008	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:33:00 - [9] - Quote You think Scouts don't have to watch their back ??? I see why you run a Brick-Logi with Rifle layout ...... The reason your posting on this is your Slayer-Logi fit Requires too much armour plating for you to match a scouts speed The players you are moaning about are the ProStompers.... Abusing their latest FOTM, it's not just the Scouts/Cloak causing deathstreaks It is the fact that the usual Proturds are abusing the Scout/Cloak 'D1CK by name' 'D1CK by nature'
Vespasian Andendare Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 778	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:33:00 - [10] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: The people who are complaining don't care enough to counter cloaks using precision enhancers or scanners. A corpmate of mine uses to complex precision enhancers and manages to see most cloaked scouts. It might suck for health but that's the price you pay for countering basically an entire strategy of many enemies. Even if one person does this in a squad and sticks together, passive scans can protect you. Having a designated scan scout can save the squad from minjas easily. I say let it play out and eventually if there is no nerf people will adapt and sacrifice their up tank for precision This is really true. People don't want to adapt from their typical shields-in-the-highs-armor-in-the-lows brick setups. Counters exist. Just as the counter to "equipment spam" are flux grenades. People would rather come QQ about equipment spam artificial drop limits and other nerfs than just use the tools CCP has provided. Incidentally, both CCP and god provided the counters for scouts when CCP gave you scanners/precision enhancers and god gave you eyes. >> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! <<

Knight Solitaire Minmatar Republic 589	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:35:00 - [11] - Quote Its gotten to the point where I just wish I could buy all the Cloaks from the Market and keep them away from all the scrubs. Scout + Cloak is far too common right now, it doesn't take a genius to notice that this is the new FOTM.
Stupid Blueberry Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 109	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:37:00 - [12] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: -Shotgun and cloak is OP and ridiculous. No 2 ways about it. -Fluxes should disable cloak for a short period not random bulletspray. -Keep the animation the same but don't allow fire until fully visible The stamina nature of cloaking is fine. You can see a cloaked scout plain as day as he runs around. The muzzle flashes from most weapons is what makes cloaked enemies hard to hit as you lose them in the strobe. I pulled this from another thread here, and will be pulling some more suggestions from that thread, as well as adding some more ideas as to possible changes. What I would like to see is what the community thinks is most important, so I'm creating this poll to help us see that. This is a multiple answer poll so please choose as many as you think are needed. http://poll.pollcode.com/38898533 Please post any other ideas not currently in the poll down below. -Scouts are the real problem No, shotguns are the real problem.
SgtDoughnut DUST University Ivy League 565	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:39:00 - [13] - Quote The only big problem I see is that you can fire while still cloaked. You need to be fully visible before being able to fire.
Knight Solitaire Minmatar Republic 591	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:39:00 - [14] - Quote CCP hasn't changed the Shotgun in months except for a few minor fixes, its the combination of the Cloak + Shotgun that is making the weapon look powerful. In this case its the Suit + Cloak Combined with the Shotgun. But the Shotgun itself is not OP.
ALPHA DECRIPTER Dragon-Empire 884	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:40:00 - [15] - Quote I make use of the 2sec cloak delay but I would be ok if that was taken out (or at least reduced to 1sec) Scout Tactician Dance puppets, DANCE!
Toby Flenderson research lab 436	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:42:00 - [16] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: TheD1CK wrote: Squad up, watch each others back, there's your cloak nerf right there Then why don't scouts have to squad up in order to be effective? Why don't scouts have to look behind them and use their eyes? Yeah sure I could do all these things that people keep telling me to do, but instead I can skill into scouts in order to: -See where the enemy is at all times -Not be detected easily -Play by myself -Get kills before anyone else can -Run away without fear of someone chasing me -Counter other scouts easily Yet if I want to play ANY other roles I have to adapt in so many ways to counter scouts. Using tactics to counter scouts all the time is like carrying around swarm launchers or forge guns all the time because I have to always be prepared to counter a tank. Except the things that counter scouts counter every other infantry as well. SL/FG do not help you against anything but tanks (generalizing that most people aren't FG prodigies). Also you're basically listing the perks of being a scout. This could be done with any suit. Heavies never have to worry about grenades or explosives in general. They have the best CQC weapon available. They have enough health to drop just about any suit in a CQC. They're targets for logi support. Logis are still able to tank a ridiculous amount of health. They get more equipment and bonuses to them. They have back speed bonuses. They get the most WP in general. You could keep going. My point is that scouts are good for ewar. That's the point of using a scout. It really seems like they're all getting **** for finally having a strength to play against the med/heavy suits
Dauth Jenkins Ultramarine Corp 386	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:49:00 - [17] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: TheD1CK wrote: Squad up, watch each others back, there's your cloak nerf right there Then why don't scouts have to squad up in order to be effective? Why don't scouts have to look behind them and use their eyes? Yeah sure I could do all these things that people keep telling me to do, but instead I can skill into scouts in order to: -See where the enemy is at all times -Not be detected easily -Play by myself -Get kills before anyone else can -Run away without fear of someone chasing me -Counter other scouts easily Yet if I want to play ANY other roles I have to adapt in so many ways to counter scouts. Using tactics to counter scouts all the time is like carrying around swarm launchers or forge guns all the time because I have to always be prepared to counter a tank. Except the things that counter scouts counter every other infantry as well. SL/FG do not help you against anything but tanks (generalizing that most people aren't FG prodigies). Also you're basically listing the perks of being a scout. This could be done with any suit. Heavies never have to worry about grenades or explosives in general. They have the best CQC weapon available. They have enough health to drop just about any suit in a CQC. They're targets for logi support. Logis are still able to tank a ridiculous amount of health. They get more equipment and bonuses to them. They have back speed bonuses. They get the most WP in general. You could keep going. My point is that scouts are good for ewar. That's the point of using a scout. It really seems like they're all getting **** for finally having a strength to play against the med/heavy suits Lol, try tanking the minmatar suits that CCP has made most logis use -Sincerely --The Dual Swarm Commando
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 4513	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:49:00 - [18] - Quote Knight Solitaire wrote: CCP hasn't changed the Shotgun in months except for a few minor fixes, its the combination of the Cloak + Shotgun that is making the weapon look powerful. In this case its the Suit + Cloak Combined with the Shotgun. But the Shotgun itself is not OP. Yes this is the problem. Cloak by itself- fine. Shotgun by itself- fine. Cloak + Shotgun + Gallente Scout = Not fine at all. The cloak takes all the properties of the shotgun that make it balance and practically removes it. The reason why I say gallente is because you can scan down any other suit if you really wanted to. There's a counter for every other scout. Not the gallente. Cloaking up with a gallente scout and a shotgun and sitting in a nullcannon to protect it should not be an acceptable strategy. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 400	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:53:00 - [19] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: TheD1CK wrote: Squad up, watch each others back, there's your cloak nerf right there Then why don't scouts have to squad up in order to be effective? Why don't scouts have to look behind them and use their eyes? Yeah sure I could do all these things that people keep telling me to do, but instead I can skill into scouts in order to: -See where the enemy is at all times -Not be detected easily -Play by myself -Get kills before anyone else can -Run away without fear of someone chasing me -Counter other scouts easily Yet if I want to play ANY other roles I have to adapt in so many ways to counter scouts. Using tactics to counter scouts all the time is like carrying around swarm launchers or forge guns all the time because I have to always be prepared to counter a tank. He did say that he thought tanks in 1.7 were fine. He completely lost me right there. Because, that's why.
Broonfondle Majikthies Dogs of War Gaming Zero-Day 1082	Posted - 2014.04.03 20:02:00 - [20] - Quote I'd say its the sudden influx of players switching to scouts. There is an imbalance to the ratio's of suit roles in most games. We're also seeing these scout fits to their full potential - since we not only got a command respec but also a series of massive skill events, so farward thinking players invested into skills to maximise their fit. Therefore our perception is that they are incredibly powerful immediately whereas a player setting out into this role will have a very different experience- Easier to detect, harder to fit, limited weaponry and far less health I have to say, the combo of shotgun and cloak isn't very skilful. I have zero skills in it but did incredibly well with just a militia. Felt really cheap to the point I couldn't continue after my 2nd kill. "...where Bylothgar the Ill-postured was made King of the People With No Name But Decent Footwear"

I-Shayz-I I-----I 2803	Posted - 2014.04.03 21:53:00 - [21] - Quote Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: I have to say, the combo of shotgun and cloak isn't very skilful. I have zero skills in it but did incredibly well with just a militia. Felt really cheap to the point I couldn't continue after my 2nd kill. Right? I played a few matches the other day with it and went 28/7 and 31/1. Made me feel like my logi/assault/commando/sentinel suits were worthless. Links: 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! I make logistics videos!
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2803	Posted - 2014.04.04 02:22:00 - [22] - Quote Bump for the evening guys Links: 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! I make logistics videos!
Henrietta Unknown Sooper Speshul Ponee Fors Dropsuit Samurai 95	Posted - 2014.04.04 02:42:00 - [23] - Quote You know, I'm really ambivalent about this. I've run scouts before 1.8, and it was painful. Brick tanking did little, and some way or another, I kept getting killed, often with no reward. Yet I have had distasteful experiences with FOTM's, and I admit that I also find the number of cloakers absurd. The cloak shouldn't be removed, but it should be evened out so its strengths and weaknesses are more evident. Make it so that if the enemy doesn't suspect you, they won't bother looking for minor telltale details. But if they are aware and on the lookout, you'll be spotted soon enough. And I do agree there should be a penalty for a cloak fitting. And it's already showing on some of my fittings. Those who constantly QQ about scout+cloak need to HTFU, and this time it's legitimate. Be observative, cover each other's backs, and plug amplifiers and precision modules if you're going EWar.
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 960	Posted - 2014.04.04 02:56:00 - [24] - Quote We're just coming up on 8 days of the cloak being released. Give the meta a chance to catch up. On a couple of other points. I like the idea of the flux clearing the cloak, but it should not wipe out shields as well. Cloaks would need to be assigned a HP value that relates to their stamina, otherwise cloaked units will be naked and defenceless, unless they armor tank, which further marginalises Minmatar and Caldari scouts. Cloak delay before firing won't make a difference. The cloak is being used for position, so they're not shooting from in front of you unless they're terrible, or you're terrible. An additional half second to a second delay won't stop someone shooting you in the back with a shotgun. Additional delay, instead, harms the ability for cloaked units to be able to respond when caught out, which is exactly opposite to the scenerio being talked about. The pervasiveness of cloaks is not an indication of OPness. It's an indication of CCP introducing a completely new mechanism for the first time in months, combined with a respec that allows people to try it out. Give it another fortnight and you'll see a reduction in scouts/cloaks. Brick-tanking is and has been an issue well before deployment of the cloak, and shouldn't be used as a measure. Does it need to be fixed? Yes. Is it exacerbating other issues? Yes. Should balance be made on the basis of a mechanic that is purvasive across all suits? No. In a similar vein, Assaults are lacklustre currently and shouldn't be looked at as the measure for balance. Assaults need to be fixed, not other things broken to align with them. Scouts vs heavies is a better indicator of balance, and I think they're in a fairly reasonable place currently. And finally, the pre-release cloak QQ is the reason we have the implementation we do. If the original system had been in place, units firing from cloak would have drained the cloak. So combined with the 50% requirement to re-cloak, it would have meant units would be unable to instantly disapear after an alpha strike. QQ has gotten us to where we are, so be consdierate in requests for change, the results may not be what you expect. o7 Knowledge is power
emtbraincase RETR0 PR0 GAMERS 92	Posted - 2014.04.04 03:09:00 - [25] - Quote I see nothing wrong with shotty+cloak. It is most definitely NOT OP. What I do see is a definite under performance in tactics and situational awareness by blue/redberries. I logi most times but I wanted to give my dren scout a try with those free cloaks and my dren shotty. As of writing this I would say that nearly every kill I've had was to someone who didn't even know I was there, and had been for awhile, literally running in circles going cloak/run/shot/cloak/run/shot/cloak...... I've even ran directly up to people, just out of direct line of fire, and never had him fire at me the whole time. Shotty to the face, directly in front of him, and likely blamed the cloak. It's what happens when you watch the minimap instead of your actual main screen. EDIT: TL;DR version, learn to situational awareness and cloaks are no longer an issue.
Black SlaverX Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 96	Posted - 2014.04.04 03:11:00 - [26] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: How far into 1.8 are we ??? This is way to early to call nerfs on Cloaking At the beginning of 1.7, HAV's were dominating by far, but due to players Adapting to using AV roles they were dealt with easily enough, bar some Scouts are only learning how to use this cloak that for once, actually does what it should The Cloak/Shotgunners in majority are the same guys who would be stomping in any FOTM Nerfing cloaks hurts Scouts, who finally fill a unique role on the battlefield in Dust514 Rather than jumping straight on Forums to QQ for nerfs, try adapting.... Scouts being invisible adds a whole new layer of CQC to our gaming While being tough to deal with, this is early days yet....... Squad up, watch each others back, there's your cloak nerf right there LOL tanks were and are OP. What you just said is one of the stupidest things Ihave read on these forums, congrats. Watch your back because I might be there.
Denn Maell PIanet Express Canis Eliminatus Operatives 264	Posted - 2014.04.04 03:13:00 - [27] - Quote Brokerib wrote: We're just coming up on 8 days of the cloak being released. Give the meta a chance to catch up. On a couple of other points. I like the idea of the flux clearing the cloak, but it should not wipe out shields as well. Cloaks would need to be assigned a HP value that relates to their stamina, otherwise cloaked units will be naked and defenceless, unless they armor tank, which further marginalises Minmatar and Caldari scouts. Cloak delay before firing won't make a difference. The cloak is being used for position, so they're not shooting from in front of you unless they're terrible, or you're terrible. An additional half second to a second delay won't stop someone shooting you in the back with a shotgun. Additional delay, instead, harms the ability for cloaked units to be able to respond when caught out, which is exactly opposite to the scenerio being talked about. The pervasiveness of cloaks is not an indication of OPness. It's an indication of CCP introducing a completely new mechanism for the first time in months, combined with a respec that allows people to try it out. Give it another fortnight and you'll see a reduction in scouts/cloaks. Brick-tanking is and has been an issue well before deployment of the cloak, and shouldn't be used as a measure. Does it need to be fixed? Yes. Is it exacerbating other issues? Yes. Should balance be made on the basis of a mechanic that is purvasive across all suits? No. In a similar vein, Assaults are lacklustre currently and shouldn't be looked at as the measure for balance. Assaults need to be fixed, not other things broken to align with them. Scouts vs heavies is a better indicator of balance, and I think they're in a fairly reasonable place currently. And finally, the pre-release cloak QQ is the reason we have the implementation we do. If the original system had been in place, units firing from cloak would have drained the cloak. So combined with the 50% requirement to re-cloak, it would have meant units would be unable to instantly disapear after an alpha strike. QQ has gotten us to where we are, so be consdierate in requests for change, the results may not be what you expect. o7 ^ This Adjusting to the new meta of tankiness vs. shields is taking some getting used to. I wonder if we're all just not adjusted to it yet? But then again, that adjustment would call for many to sacrifice a slot for survivability so they can have enough time to react. Why don't we have this poll again after CCP declares the cloaks are working "as intended" with more of the exploitable glitches ironed out? The most OP weapon on the Dust Battle Field: One good logi, one rep tool, and a heavy.
Rusty Shallows 1399	Posted - 2014.04.04 03:22:00 - [28] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Bump for the evening guys Thanks for posting and bumping this thread Shayz. Comparing the individual results against the total population is interesting. I really hope more people try it. Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
The Eristic Sad Panda Solutions 351	Posted - 2014.04.04 03:22:00 - [29] - Quote I'm pretty fine with them as they are. Flux causing decloak makes sense, though, so I'm all for that.
Toby Flenderson research lab 439	Posted - 2014.04.04 03:30:00 - [30] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Having a designated scan scout can save the squad from minjas easily. That's like saying you need a designated tank in your squad in order to counter other tanks -_- Not even close. Without the scout, you can still kill the cloaked enemies with just about anything. It just helps being able to see them when they think you can't. Tanks are virtually indestructible without forges or well coordinated REs. Or another tanker, as you put it.

Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 988	Posted - 2014.04.04 04:28:00 - [31] - Quote If nothing else, cloaks do wonders to encourage team play. Now you gotta have ppl playing defensively in groups as opposed to pure offensive gang up tactics of Nyian San. If you put effort in watching backs of your squad mates scout assaults on you become a suicide run. Now this is very different from arguments of 1.7 where ppl would say "use a squad of AV" to take out one tank. Countering a cloaked scout takes only one player willing to watch the rear. Try to play Dom and see how successful cloaked scouts are - not at all. Because scouts don't do well against red blobs. In skirm, sure - if you let your ppl spread out and everyone imagines themselves to be a pro Medium Suit Rambo, as has been the case since early Uprising, a scout would pick you off one by one. That kind of death is deserved. PLC, NK, Scout - before 1.8. That's right, I stack that OP Sh!t.
arimal lavaren L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 326	Posted - 2014.04.04 04:54:00 - [32] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: If nothing else, cloaks do wonders to encourage team play. Now you gotta have ppl playing defensively in groups as opposed to pure offensive gang up tactics of Nyian San. If you put effort in watching backs of your squad mates scout assaults on you become a suicide run. Now this is very different from arguments of 1.7 where ppl would say "use a squad of AV" to take out one tank. Countering a cloaked scout takes only one player willing to watch the rear. Try to play Dom and see how successful cloaked scouts are - not at all. Because scouts don't do well against red blobs. In skirm, sure - if you let your ppl spread out and everyone imagines themselves to be a pro Medium Suit Rambo, as has been the case since early Uprising, a scout would pick you off one by one. That kind of death is deserved. This^ Teamwork is good and the cloaks are helping to force that mentality.
Henrietta Unknown Sooper Speshul Ponee Fors Dropsuit Samurai 95	Posted - 2014.04.04 05:16:00 - [33] - Quote So think it as a horror movie? LOLyeah It's always the lone one who disappears.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 1011	Posted - 2014.04.04 11:42:00 - [34] - Quote God Dammit.... Dust bunnies are such cowards...... Try fire a Bolt Pistol while de-cloaking.... you barely make the shot So what is being moaned about is less then a .5 second delay The Scout stomps have been a serious pain, but we are only getting used to them Being able to cloak and actually performing a useful role on the battlefield in Dust QQ is not the solution to Cloak/Shotguns.... we already have the solution Rifles! And being able to look in front of you and see the shimmer of a cloak Just like everyone else, I have had my ass kicked by Cloakers since 1.8 The counter is playing carefully, don't think that Proto rifle makes you unkillable Scanners..... Some Margin of Error ??? then keep your gun ready.... Scans have been nerfed from the 360 BS to scanning right in front of you So even if a Scout dodges Scan there is a small area he must be occupying I'm not going to keep advising how you kill Scouts, thats your job to HTFU Quit the QQ, and pop some headshots on some Cloak Scouts.... The real issue is not the Cloak or the Scout, It's the Dust players.. Proturds immediately saw Cloak potential and went Proto Scout QQbunnies immediately saw the Cloak and went Proto Forum QQ So nerfing Scouts just gives the 30m/40m/50m SP mercs the trouble Of finding their latest crutch in Battle, will that also need to be nerfed??? God help CCP trying to balance a game where players QQ over something killing them Am I the only one who realizes this is a FPS ?? we are meant to kill each other CCP don't need to nerf anything, players need to see that Dust will be evolving following every new item with QQ threads slows down the progress of the game 'D1CK by name' 'D1CK by nature'
Otoky Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 151	Posted - 2014.04.04 12:01:00 - [35] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: -Fluxes should disable cloak for a short period not random bulletspray. Cant agree more
Otoky Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 151	Posted - 2014.04.04 12:07:00 - [36] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: God Dammit.... Dust bunnies are such cowards...... Yep, its an FPS and ppl need adopt, but there is difference between nerf and some reasonable changes. Like the flux granade witch could be a solution. Its not a scout nerf, but it give a tool for the loner assault to deff himself if he smart enough.
Scout Registry Nos Nothi 1955	Posted - 2014.04.04 12:17:00 - [37] - Quote Good Poll, Shayz.
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2809	Posted - 2014.04.04 12:35:00 - [38] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: 1. God Dammit.... Dust bunnies are such cowards...... Try fire a Bolt Pistol while de-cloaking.... you barely make the shot So what is being moaned about is less then a .5 second delay 2. QQ is not the solution to Cloak/Shotguns.... we already have the solution Rifles! And being able to look in front of you and see the shimmer of a cloak 3. God help CCP trying to balance a game where players QQ over something killing them Am I the only one who realizes this is a FPS ?? we are meant to kill each other 1. In 1.7 I only had about a second of time to see a red dot appear on my radar from a scout that I passively scanned, but it gave me the time I needed to turn around and realize that there was a scout behind me even though I had just checked behind me 5 seconds before. 2. 80% of the time that I actually see a cloaked scout, the only advantage it gives me is knowing what kind of suit he was wearing before I die. Why is that? Becuase 80% of cloaked scouts have enough ehp to shrug off hip-fire long enough to get two shotgun rounds in my face, not to mention the jumping and strafing they all do. I understand that "true" scouts don't have this much hp, but the cloak lets these tanking scouts stay invisible unless I use 3 of my high slots for precision mods, and that's only if they're not using dampeners as well. Bringing back the argument from point 1...there isn't enough time for them to register on the radar before they actually get to shoot me in the face because of instantly firing after decloak. 3. It's not dying. Heck I'd rather die 20 times from an HMG, a charge sniper, a forge gun, or a tank than once from a cloaked shotgun scout. Why? Because while all of these are insta-kill methods of dying, the shotgun scout is impossible to get away from or hide from unless you are stacking a ton of e-war mods on a logi, or you're a scout yourself. I can run away from an HMG because they're slow and can't chase me easily. I can hide from snipers, forges, and tanks once I know where they are shooting from...but if I die from one it was because I was out in the open, which gives them the advantage and is FAIR. ____________________________________________________________ Dust is not Unreal Tournament. Dust is not Instagib mode where you spawn die spawn die spawn die from weapons that can kill you in one shot without you even being able to react. If I wanted to play a modern FPS game like that I'd go play CoD where it doesn't matter what you use because everyone dies just as fast. But right now, whether I use a logi, an assault, a commando, or a heavy...if a shotgun scout appears I die in less than a second from two shotgun rounds because I didn't have a chance to react. I want to be able to run to cover or hide, I want to be able to fight back, I want to be able to kill a scout if I see them coming up on me...but none of these are true because of how many of these things a scout can counter. This is why we QQ, this is why I want a change, and this is why I don't enjoy cloaking shotgun scouts. Instead of getting a more strategic game in 1.8, the shotgun scouts make this game feel like I'm just playing another boring instakill shooter where the whole point is to use the suit that allows you to see where everyone is, get there the fastest, and kill the fastest before the enmy has a chance to react, while making sure not to be seen. Telling us to "get skill" when clearly that gameplay style requires hardly any skill at all (we all know it doesn't because all the FOTM players are doing it) just makes me annoyed. I really don't have a lot of skill, that's why I logi...but apparently I can't really do that either because I'm constantly killed by these shotgun scouts no matter what suit or fitting I run. Normally against FOTM fittings I just run, or hide, or use cover...but I can't here...I can't even rely on my repair tool to keep the havies alive to shoot at them because they die way too fast. This is how it was with the Duvolle, this is how it was with missile turrets on dropships, this is how it was with the TAC AR, this is how it was with the flaylock, this is how it was with the RR and CR, This is how it was with scanners, this is how it was with tanks, this is how it is with cloaking shotguns. No wait...it's worse than any other FOTM because I literally can't do anything against it unless I'm in my own scout suit. Links: 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! I make logistics videos!
Racro 01 Arifistan 501st Knights of Leanbox INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 266	Posted - 2014.04.04 12:37:00 - [39] - Quote cloaks are fine. iam killing cloaked scouts while thier moveing or even standing still. soo i dont see how its op. iam mangaing to even kill the cloaked bastards from a tank. i dont see how the cloak is overpowered. *Elite Gallenten Soldier*
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4867	Posted - 2014.04.04 12:47:00 - [40] - Quote My vote goes on the following two options: 1. Increase volume of decloak sound for players other than the one cloaked. 2. Provide education for players on what cloaked suits look like. Unfortunately, they're conspicuous in their absence from the poll, and the "none, use your eyes" option is worded in an offensive manner in an obvious attempt to discourage even those who believe the cloak is pretty nearly balanced as it should be from bothering to vote at all. Biased poll is biased.

xSir Campsalotx G0DS AM0NG MEN D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 187	Posted - 2014.04.04 12:54:00 - [41] - Quote What if shooting cloaked mercs disrupts the cloak causing them to decloak for the duration of the damage tanken. G0DS AM0NG MEN Director 1.8 is going to be Heavy 514 they said... Looking around all I see are twig men
martinofski Onsencaliss 329	Posted - 2014.04.04 13:00:00 - [42] - Quote Or what if the cloaks just didn't provide any extra dampening. I would be fine with the rest.
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2810	Posted - 2014.04.04 13:07:00 - [43] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: 1. Increase volume of decloak sound for players other than the one cloaked. Biased poll is biased. ***...I completely forgot about this. This is a very major point that I am in complete support of, but must have passed up when I created the poll. Knew I was forgetting something. I'll include it in the OP for reference, but the thing is that it's more of a bug than something that needs to be changed or added to the cloak, at least that's how I see it. Links:* 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! I make logistics videos!
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2725	Posted - 2014.04.04 13:23:00 - [44] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Knight Solitaire wrote: CCP hasn't changed the Shotgun in months except for a few minor fixes, its the combination of the Cloak + Shotgun that is making the weapon look powerful. In this case its the Suit + Cloak Combined with the Shotgun. But the Shotgun itself is not OP. Yes this is the problem. Cloak by itself- fine. Shotgun by itself- fine. Cloak + Shotgun + Gallente Scout = Not fine at all. The cloak takes all the properties of the shotgun that make it balance and practically removes it. The reason why I say gallente is because you can scan down any other suit if you really wanted to. There's a counter for every other scout. Not the gallente. Cloaking up with a gallente scout and a shotgun and sitting in a nullcannon to protect it should not be an acceptable strategy. This is a good point but actually not just limited to scouts/cloaks. Because this game's design allows for many combinations of different things, there are several set ups that can completely circumvent the disadvantages built into certain powerful items to balance them. - Shotguns: extreme damage at extreme close range, balanced by difficulty of reaching required range, circumvented by cloak-insta-shoot - HMG Heavies: extreme damage at reasonable range, balanced by slow speed of heavy suits easy to get away from, circumvented by LAVs allowing anyone to get anywhere very fast I'm sure there are more examples... Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2089	Posted - 2014.04.04 13:31:00 - [45] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Knight Solitaire wrote: CCP hasn't changed the Shotgun in months except for a few minor fixes, its the combination of the Cloak + Shotgun that is making the weapon look powerful. In this case its the Suit + Cloak Combined with the Shotgun. But the Shotgun itself is not OP. Yes this is the problem. Cloak by itself- fine. Shotgun by itself- fine. Cloak + Shotgun + Gallente Scout = Not fine at all. The cloak takes all the properties of the shotgun that make it balance and practically removes it. The reason why I say gallente is because you can scan down any other suit if you really wanted to. There's a counter for every other scout. Not the gallente. Cloaking up with a gallente scout and a shotgun and sitting in a nullcannon to protect it should not be an acceptable strategy. This is a good point but actually not just limited to scouts/cloaks. Because this game's design allows for many combinations of different things, there are several set ups that can completely circumvent the disadvantages built into certain powerful items to balance them. - Shotguns: extreme damage at extreme close range, balanced by difficulty of reaching required range, circumvented by cloak-insta-shoot - HMG Heavies: extreme damage at reasonable range, balanced by slow speed of heavy suits easy to get away from, circumvented by LAVs allowing anyone to get anywhere very fast I'm sure there are more examples... Redline Rail tanks - Should be glass cannons at range, are invincible due to redline. Drop it like its hat. I´m a fat scout. Do you even lift bro?
Scout Registry Nos Nothi 1965	Posted - 2014.04.04 13:55:00 - [46] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Knight Solitaire wrote: CCP hasn't changed the Shotgun in months except for a few minor fixes, its the combination of the Cloak + Shotgun that is making the weapon look powerful. In this case its the Suit + Cloak Combined with the Shotgun. But the Shotgun itself is not OP. Yes this is the problem. Cloak by itself- fine. Shotgun by itself- fine. Cloak + Shotgun + Gallente Scout = Not fine at all. The cloak takes all the properties of the shotgun that make it balance and practically removes it. The reason why I say gallente is because you can scan down any other suit if you really wanted to. There's a counter for every other scout. Not the gallente. Cloaking up with a gallente scout and a shotgun and sitting in a nullcannon to protect it should not be an acceptable strategy. Couldn't this problem be solved by tweaking Cloaks' the profile reduction property?
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 969	Posted - 2014.04.04 14:17:00 - [47] - Quote Scout Registry wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Knight Solitaire wrote: CCP hasn't changed the Shotgun in months except for a few minor fixes, its the combination of the Cloak + Shotgun that is making the weapon look powerful. In this case its the Suit + Cloak Combined with the Shotgun. But the Shotgun itself is not OP. Yes this is the problem. Cloak by itself- fine. Shotgun by itself- fine. Cloak + Shotgun + Gallente Scout = Not fine at all. The cloak takes all the properties of the shotgun that make it balance and practically removes it. The reason why I say gallente is because you can scan down any other suit if you really wanted to. There's a counter for every other scout. Not the gallente. Cloaking up with a gallente scout and a shotgun and sitting in a nullcannon to protect it should not be an acceptable strategy. @ Moody Couldn't this problem be solved by tweaking Cloaks' added profile reduction property? Doing so would encourage folks to run Damps over Plates; bye bye brick-tank Scout QQ. Or would this lend too significant an advantage to Cal Scout and Gal Logi? Or place undue stress on Min / Amarr Scouts? My 2c. FOTM brick tank shotgun scouts don't need dampening, and wont run EWAR regardless. The only suits they have to fear if dampening is lost is other scouts. Mediums and heavies still won't be able to see them passively due to the scout base dB + Gal damp bonus, and they still gain the advantage of the active invisibility the cloak offers. And they can crush a non-brick scout in two shots, so they're not much of a threat either, if they're bricked/quick enough. Additionally, removing dampening will harm the Cal and the Mini, due to limited lows. The Mini will losing speed for dampeners, while the Cal end up losing their range advantage as they can't use enhancers if they want to drop dB. Until the brick is fixed, most of the suggested cloak changes are going to disadvantaging proper scouts without fixing the problem. Knowledge is power
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 149	Posted - 2014.04.04 14:31:00 - [48] - Quote I would prefer an increased shimmer when fluxed rather than completely disable the cloak. That would give the poor scout who just lost all his shields a sporting chance.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2731	Posted - 2014.04.04 14:57:00 - [49] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Scout Registry wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Knight Solitaire wrote: CCP hasn't changed the Shotgun in months except for a few minor fixes, its the combination of the Cloak + Shotgun that is making the weapon look powerful. In this case its the Suit + Cloak Combined with the Shotgun. But the Shotgun itself is not OP. Yes this is the problem. Cloak by itself- fine. Shotgun by itself- fine. Cloak + Shotgun + Gallente Scout = Not fine at all. The cloak takes all the properties of the shotgun that make it balance and practically removes it. The reason why I say gallente is because you can scan down any other suit if you really wanted to. There's a counter for every other scout. Not the gallente. Cloaking up with a gallente scout and a shotgun and sitting in a nullcannon to protect it should not be an acceptable strategy. @ Moody Couldn't this problem be solved by tweaking Cloaks' added profile reduction property? Doing so would encourage folks to run Damps over Plates; bye bye brick-tank Scout QQ. Or would this lend too significant an advantage to Cal Scout and Gal Logi? Or place undue stress on Min / Amarr Scouts? My 2c. FOTM brick tank shotgun scouts don't need dampening, and wont run EWAR regardless. The only suits they have to fear if dampening is lost is other scouts. Mediums and heavies still won't be able to see them passively due to the scout base dB + Gal damp bonus, and they still gain the advantage of the active invisibility the cloak offers. And they can crush a non-brick scout in two shots, so they're not much of a threat either, if they're bricked/quick enough. Additionally, removing dampening will harm the Cal and the Mini, due to limited lows. The Mini will losing speed for dampeners, while the Cal end up losing their range advantage as they can't use enhancers if they want to drop dB. Until the brick is fixed, most of the suggested cloak changes are going to disadvantaging proper scouts without fixing the problem. The brick does need fixing but I think the dampening also needs removing. The minmatar and caldari scouts will suffer through the lack of lows but they excel in other areas, such as precision/speed. They'll only be vulnerable to people kitted out for scanning them and like I said in my longer post before, everything needs some viable counter. They'll still be undetectable by most logis, assaults and heavies, so far from completely negated. Once the brick is fixed the advantage of the gal scouts will be far reduced (perhaps kinkats should be moved to high slots so they can't speed tank as well too? maybe, just throwing it out there) but keep in mind that gallente are the king of cloaking, so that should kinda be their thing. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Joey-Number1 Maniacal Miners INC No Safe Haven 77	Posted - 2014.04.04 15:11:00 - [50] - Quote Most of the people here even didn't try to use the cloak and act like they know everything, they really are not OP in any way. They just offer a good playstyle. Try it first yourself and then see if you feel like being invincible. 80% of the scouts that use cloak can be easily detected by using your eyes, and btw, there these things called tactics and modules.

Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1960	Posted - 2014.04.04 15:39:00 - [51] - Quote Scout Registry wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Knight Solitaire wrote: CCP hasn't changed the Shotgun in months except for a few minor fixes, its the combination of the Cloak + Shotgun that is making the weapon look powerful. In this case its the Suit + Cloak Combined with the Shotgun. But the Shotgun itself is not OP. Yes this is the problem. Cloak by itself- fine. Shotgun by itself- fine. Cloak + Shotgun + Gallente Scout = Not fine at all. The cloak takes all the properties of the shotgun that make it balance and practically removes it. The reason why I say gallente is because you can scan down any other suit if you really wanted to. There's a counter for every other scout. Not the gallente. Cloaking up with a gallente scout and a shotgun and sitting in a nullcannon to protect it should not be an acceptable strategy. @ Moody Couldn't this problem be solved by tweaking the Cloak's added profile reduction? Doing so would encourage folks to run Damps over Plates; bye bye brick-tank Scout QQ. Or would this lend too significant an advantage to Cal Scout and Gal Logi? Or place undue stress on Min / Amarr Scouts? How do you propose we solve the problem? Brick tanking, it's only wrong when someone else is doing it. Absolutely nothing wrong with dual tanking a logistics suits, or an assault suit, or a heavy suit. but when a scout does it! then there's a problem. "The cloak takes all the properties of the shotgun that make it balance and practically removes it. The reason why I say gallente is because you can scan down any other suit if you really wanted to. There's a counter for every other scout. Not the gallente." lol, this is so absolutely wrong. EVERY SINGLE SCOUT can get their profile below 15db. They can get it to the point that a Caldari Scout with 4 complex precision enhancers Or a Gallente Logistics with a Focused Scanner won't detect them. ALL 4 Scouts can do this! A theoretical Amarr Scout can be dampened enough to never be scanned, EVER, 510 armor HP and 220 shield HP. My Minmatar Scout has 342 shield HP, 153 armor HP My Caldari Scout has 380 shield HP, 87 armor HP My Gallente Scout has 608 armor HP, 232 shield HP Or I could brick-tank my Gallente Logistics suit for 935 armor and 342 shields. Garunteeing to never be scanned is clearly worth more than 430HP Hmm, Perhaps. I do have to sacrifice about 350 on that dual tanked Logistics to get under 20dB while using a cloak. Cloaked Cal-Logi is still my favorite, btw. A shame I gave up that suit up for the Calmando, it would have been epic. boo-*******-hoo. All I see are a bunch of people crying over actually taking Scouts as a threat instead of just laughing at seeing one in their armor tanked suits with multiple damage mods with constant active scanner spam. If you think cloak+shotgun is OP, you need to look again at the Combat Rifle and how that overshadows all the light weapons. Combat rifle and cloak is still better than shotgun and cloak 9 times out of 10. If you think there's a problem with a SCOUT dual tanking, then you need to prevent dual tanking all together. Not just on a single suit. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 453	Posted - 2014.04.04 16:02:00 - [52] - Quote i say before anyone calls for a nerf to cloaks or scouts to skill in to them or the scanning skils first, you cant callfora nerf if you dont have the sp to test the true "op-ness"/"up-ness" of any equipment or suit.
Varoth Drac the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY 47	Posted - 2014.04.04 16:06:00 - [53] - Quote I don't think there is a problem with cloaks and shotguns. If attacked from the front you can see the enemy, if attacked from the rear you would have died whether the opponent was cloaked or not. With all the scouts around you need to stick together and have people with injectors. If a scout shotguner attacks they will generally be close enough to kill without escaping. Then simply res the person who was killed. They will probably be at the back so frontal enemy fire shouldn't stop you resing them. It is still easier to kill and survive with a rifle and a cloak than with a shotgun due to range. The problem isn't brick tanking, though I agree armor plates are a bit too good. I think Gallente scouts are a little op compared to the others, only because they get 3 free low slot modules leaving them with better fitting options. Perhaps removing the range extension bonus would balance things. Caldari for scanning, Gallente for hiding. Just an idea.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4037	Posted - 2014.04.04 16:13:00 - [54] - Quote Voted I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
noob cavman Dirt Nap Squad. 1092	Posted - 2014.04.04 16:19:00 - [55] - Quote Only one major flaw with the cloak is the ability to shoot instantaneous your primary. Even though I do it but I admit its a problemthat a tactic now is to just ststraight up run at people. Jump whilst swapping to your shotty to insta blap someone in the head. two second delay or 1.5 secound would balance out that one feature making that combo treading close to op I want to be a caveman! Ccp: DENIED YOU DRUNK Gö+GöüGö+ n+¦pâ+(`-ö´)n+ën+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ FFX and X2 in hd GÖí
Mahal Daj Mahal Tactical Enterprises 43	Posted - 2014.04.04 16:42:00 - [56] - Quote WARNING: if you nerf the cloak, regardless of the nerf, I will begin pairing it with knives and a Mass Driver/Shotgun. Let's not be discourteous here... I run around with my basic AR and a basic cloak and play nice with the newberries, without screaming about the RR or insta-pop HMG's (insta on scouts) because they fit the canon too. The cloaking device is the equivalent of a tablecloth if you use strategic locations. I suggest the QQ's think paper-rock-scissors instead of nerf-nerf-nerf or the hammer will swing your way too, this is how we lost the 3rd grenade. Boost your squad's points by 40%, learn to use the Squad Wheel! I provide training: 1M isk: 90 Minutes of Basic Command
noob cavman Dirt Nap Squad. 1094	Posted - 2014.04.04 16:55:00 - [57] - Quote Mahal Daj wrote: WARNING: if you nerf the cloak, regardless of the nerf, I will begin pairing it with knives and a Mass Driver/Shotgun. Let's not be discourteous here... I run around with my basic AR and a basic cloak and play nice with the newberries, without screaming about the RR or insta-pop HMG's (insta on scouts) because they fit the canon too. The cloaking device is the equivalent of a tablecloth if you use strategic locations. I suggest the QQ's think paper-rock-scissors instead of nerf-nerf-nerf or the hammer will swing your way too, this is how we lost the 3rd grenade. Thats what we are trying to stop. The insta freebie shotgun shot or knife I want to be a caveman! Ccp: DENIED YOU DRUNK Gö+GöüGö+ n+¦pâ+(`-ö´)n+ën+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ FFX and X2 in hd GÖí
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 818	Posted - 2014.04.04 16:56:00 - [58] - Quote If we remove the damp bonus it nerfs everything but the GAL scout. Then no scout has much of an option against prototype scanners and cal scout. There is no balance there, there are no counters. ITS ALWAYS BETTER TO BE UNSEEN. Thats also IMO should be the final counter; to be unseen. All other scouts would need to completely nerf their fit just so they aren't seen on the radar. Seeing other people on the radar is a huge benefit. HUGE. Its why there is so much damn complaining about the scanner changes and how scouts are "OP" Remove the Cloak bonus and you get a whole host of other problems. It would actually be nice if they could modify the bonus to apply as the shimmer does (the more speed the more profile) but that is probably unlikely, but perhaps the best solution. You get a "scanned message" you cloak and stop moving until timer expires, something else CCP needs to add, a timer for "being scanned" or hud information to that effect. Scouts: To throw out some numbers, without the profile bonus all other scouts (w/o damp) besides GAL will be passively seen with a CAL scout without any precision mods. A Cal scout with 1 cPE will be able to see all scouts (w/o damp) To combat this, Gal scout will need to fit at least a basic damp and all other scouts will need to fit at least two damps. A CAL scout with 3 cPE is pretty much uncounterable except by using 4 damps or a 2 damp GAL scout. Med Frames: Can fit 2cPE and pick up nonGAL scouts without damps. Scanners: nonGAL would need to fit at least 2 damps to avoid GAL-logi proto scans and 4 damps to avoid focused GALlogi scans. So TL:DR on removing damp bonus -Creates another "permascanned" environment for nonGALscouts. -Makes the GAL scout even more powerful (unseen > seeing) (has no "real" impact on GAL scouts) -Ruins the counter/counter environment for healthy balance -The problem with cloak is being able to fire before fully visible. -Elephant in the room is the GAL scout (w/cloak and single damp its impossible to scan) Im a cal scout, so go ahead and advocate for removal of the damp bonus, I will have a freaking hayday with all of the scouts not running >3 damps, as you simply won't have a counter to avoid the passive scans PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Mahal Daj Mahal Tactical Enterprises 44	Posted - 2014.04.04 17:02:00 - [59] - Quote noob cavman wrote: Mahal Daj wrote: WARNING: if you nerf the cloak, regardless of the nerf, I will begin pairing it with knives and a Mass Driver/Shotgun. Let's not be discourteous here... I run around with my basic AR and a basic cloak and play nice with the newberries, without screaming about the RR or insta-pop HMG's (insta on scouts) because they fit the canon too. The cloaking device is the equivalent of a tablecloth if you use strategic locations. I suggest the QQ's think paper-rock-scissors instead of nerf-nerf-nerf or the hammer will swing your way too, this is how we lost the 3rd grenade. Thats what we are trying to stop. The insta freebie shotgun shot or knife Let me tell you it hasn't even begun. We Scouts are honorable, and understand that every action affects the community. Let the FotMers move along and all will return to balance in New Eden. Also, I'd argue there is no such thing as a "free knife kill" Boost your squad's points by 40%, learn to use the Squad Wheel! I provide training: 1M isk: 90 Minutes of Basic Command
Mahal Daj Mahal Tactical Enterprises 44	Posted - 2014.04.04 17:06:00 - [60] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: If we remove the damp bonus it nerfs everything but the GAL scout. Then no scout has much of an option against prototype scanners and cal scout. There is no balance there, there are no counters. ITS ALWAYS BETTER TO BE UNSEEN. Thats also IMO should be the final counter; to be unseen. All other scouts would need to completely nerf their fit just so they aren't seen on the radar. Seeing other people on the radar is a huge benefit. HUGE. Its why there is so much damn complaining about the scanner changes and how scouts are "OP" Remove the Cloak bonus and you get a whole host of other problems. It would actually be nice if they could modify the bonus to apply as the shimmer does (the more speed the more profile) but that is probably unlikely, but perhaps the best solution. You get a "scanned message" you cloak and stop moving until timer expires, something else CCP needs to add, a timer for "being scanned" or hud information to that effect. Scouts: To throw out some numbers, without the profile bonus all other scouts (w/o damp) besides GAL will be passively seen with a CAL scout without any precision mods. A Cal scout with 1 cPE will be able to see all scouts (w/o damp) To combat this, Gal scout will need to fit at least a basic damp and all other scouts will need to fit at least two damps. A CAL scout with 3 cPE is pretty much uncounterable except by using 4 damps or a 2 damp GAL scout. Med Frames: Can fit 2cPE and pick up nonGAL scouts without damps. Scanners: nonGAL would need to fit at least 2 damps to avoid GAL-logi proto scans and 4 damps to avoid focused GALlogi scans. So TL:DR on removing damp bonus -Creates another "permascanned" environment for nonGALscouts. -Makes the GAL scout even more powerful (unseen > seeing) (has no "real" impact on GAL scouts) -Ruins the counter/counter environment for healthy balance -The problem with cloak is being able to fire before fully visible. -Elephant in the room is the GAL scout (w/cloak and single damp its impossible to scan) Im a cal scout, so go ahead and advocate for removal of the damp bonus, I will have a freaking hayday with all of the scouts not running >3 damps, as you simply won't have a counter to avoid the passive scans 2.5 M SP in the suit says that I choose EWAR over EHP. just bring a basic heavy with basic HMG and I will find other areas of the map to inhabit. Paper-Rock-Scissors. Boost your squad's points by 40%, learn to use the Squad Wheel! I provide training: 1M isk: 90 Minutes of Basic Command

Cotsy8 the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY 226	Posted - 2014.04.04 17:08:00 - [61] - Quote Ok here we go, @d1ck - SG + cloak are FOTM chasers because the combo is OP. Not because shotguns or speed SG or tanked SG are but because cloaks are. Nerf'ing cloaks would not hurt scouts for many reasons, but would solve two huge problems. As mentioned 1000 times scouts received a significant boost in 1.8 (and cloaks) which made them more viable, stronger , more flexible, more adaptable due to additional classes (their new roles), increases to slot layout (hi/low on current suits), and a second equipment slot. There is no disputing scouts have a unique role, a cloak is not required to play that role but rather skill, good decision making, strategy, patience and being selective (don't chase a 1600 heavy, don't take on 3 guys etc..). Quick recap, cloaks reward poor play and provide offensive and defensive advantage to player whose gameplay doesn't deserve such high rewards. Cloaks are low risk, high reward, no drawback easy buttons. @toby - people who don't care aren't using precision and range mods... Okay so if you spec'd into a cal scout you can be a 220 eHP scout who sees people coming but due to 2 lows can't avoid being seen himself, or due to 650-850 eHP scouts and 1600 eHP heavies can't do much in a battle outside place a remote or hide. You aren't going to see many scouts regardless, cloak + 1 complex damp (plus Gal scout racial bonus), check the chart. A Cal scout need 4 precision to pick up a cloaked scout using 1 complex damp, and can't find a Gal. That means you are required to be a Proto Cal scout with no eHP, no stealth, no speed, just to stand around and passively scan.. Sounds fun being a fragile useless guy who has to be high enough SP (12-14m SP) to avoid being able to do this, sounds like NPE is great, sounds like its a fun time doing ** all and still not seeing 1/2 the scouts. You say it protects you from minja's, yes the least used scout class who due to their ** 3-2 adv slot layout and lack of PG can't avoid to use stealth and speed or anything but NK which insanely high PG to screw the rest of their suit. Yea protect against a class which is so niche and low in numbers, and whose suits are the weakest in its class. What you are saying requires too much SP, doesn't protect against 1/2 of the scouts, and turns your char into a boob that isn't exactly having fun.
Cotsy8 the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY 226	Posted - 2014.04.04 17:27:00 - [62] - Quote Shayz makes some good points on both sides, but his argument isn't cloaks vs cloaking removal, it's how to nerf cloaks more or less which means people are starting to recognize that cloaks are a easy button. They are low risk, high reward, no drawback equipment slot (but logi don't have a bonus to it) that rewards bad gameplay, and doesn't punish a scouts mistakes. I am not saying there are no reasonable points made by people, why doesn't a flux remove a cloak. Seems to be a no brainer. Shouldn't a certain damage% remove the cloaking feature, would make sense. Shouldn't cloaks last less time, or have longer cool downs, i don't know about that. Someone mentioned that scouts were better slayers than logi's now - I'm not sure about that, I can make a pretty damn good brick tank logi, all that CPU/PG and 4 or 5 lows means speed, stamina, high eHP. Sure it means you will be seen, but except for a Gal scout most scouts (Amarr maybe not at Proto) are being seen. Cal Proto and adv are being seen because they have two low slots so double dampening might not be an option, especially when they are using 3-4 hi's on enhancers. Min scouts are also not in the stealth game because 2 lows at adv and 3 lows at Proto seriously hurt their speed game. This is particularity a problem at adv, and a massive problem when equipping a high PG weapon like NK (no reduction skill, high PG in kin cats and cloaks as well). Scouts are not the problem, the cloaks are. And yes, there are things you can do to nerf them but why not outright remove them? It's just a bunch of "elite" players who don't want to see their crutch go and the return to a high risk, high reward class based in skill and strategy and not easy button mode. At the same time, the middle of the road player who are struggling with being a scout have found their lack of skill doesn't apply here, and are fighting even harder to keep their **** gameplay relevant. From their mediocrity, cloaks have given these players the tool (singular) necessary to be a constant top 3 threat, given them the ability to slay all foes big or small, and given them the easy mode required so they are not punished for their many many mistakes. Lets for the sake of argument just highlight the fact that cloaked scout is impossible for most new players to use due to the high SO requirements of max'ing out the scout (2.8m SP) to get reduction bonuses.
Mahal Daj Mahal Tactical Enterprises 44	Posted - 2014.04.04 17:39:00 - [63] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: Shayz makes some good points on both sides, but his argument isn't cloaks vs cloaking removal, it's how to nerf cloaks more or less which means people are starting to recognize that cloaks are a easy button. They are low risk, high reward, no drawback equipment slot (but logi don't have a bonus to it) that rewards bad gameplay, and doesn't punish a scouts mistakes. I am not saying there are no reasonable points made by people, why doesn't a flux remove a cloak. Seems to be a no brainer. Shouldn't a certain damage% remove the cloaking feature, would make sense. Shouldn't cloaks last less time, or have longer cool downs, i don't know about that. Someone mentioned that scouts were better slayers than logi's now - I'm not sure about that, I can make a pretty damn good brick tank logi, all that CPU/PG and 4 or 5 lows means speed, stamina, high eHP. Sure it means you will be seen, but except for a Gal scout most scouts (Amarr maybe not at Proto) are being seen. Cal Proto and adv are being seen because they have two low slots so double dampening might not be an option, especially when they are using 3-4 hi's on enhancers. Min scouts are also not in the stealth game because 2 lows at adv and 3 lows at Proto seriously hurt their speed game. This is particularity a problem at adv, and a massive problem when equipping a high PG weapon like NK (no reduction skill, high PG in kin cats and cloaks as well). Scouts are not the problem, the cloaks are. And yes, there are things you can do to nerf them but why not outright remove them? It's just a bunch of "elite" players who don't want to see their crutch go and the return to a high risk, high reward class based in skill and strategy and not easy button mode. At the same time, the middle of the road player who are struggling with being a scout have found their lack of skill doesn't apply here, and are fighting even harder to keep their **** gameplay relevant. From their mediocrity, cloaks have given these players the tool (singular) necessary to be a constant top 3 threat, given them the ability to slay all foes big or small, and given them the easy mode required so they are not punished for their many many mistakes. Lets for the sake of argument just highlight the fact that cloaked scout is impossible for most new players to use due to the high SO requirements of max'ing out the scout (2.8m SP) to get reduction bonuses. I agree! Remove the cloak AND the rail rifle. I'd be happy with that. Boost your squad's points by 40%, learn to use the Squad Wheel! I provide training: 1M isk: 90 Minutes of Basic Command
Lightning xVx R 0 N 1 N 516	Posted - 2014.04.04 17:52:00 - [64] - Quote Well like I always say "There are Scouts, then there are those that use Cloak."
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4880	Posted - 2014.04.04 18:06:00 - [65] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: The same thing Cotsy always says. You know, you should probably go back to the thread where you tried to respond to me calling you out, and ACTUALLY DEFEND YOUR POSITION. Otherwise your repetition of the same already-debunked argument will just continue to get the same counters that have already debunked it until you come up with a way to respond to the counter-arguments people keep bringing up. I called you out, and while you responded to that calling out, you DIDN'T address any of the points I've made throughout all the other threads, and you tried to call me out in response but didn't stick around when I countered every point you tried to make. So... ~~Troll~~ Try harder next time?
Yan Darn Science For Death 515	Posted - 2014.04.04 18:07:00 - [66] - Quote Disclaimer: I'm the type of hipster scout everyone would hate - not only was I a scout before cloaks (or indeed tact-net changes) I have only ever invested in Gal-Scout (even now at 20mil+ SP). I personally argued against tying our role bonus so intimately to just this one piece of equipment. So it'll be of no surprise that if CCP ditched cloaks tomorrow and replaced the 75% cloak reduction and gave us a 25% reduction to Biotics/electronics modules instead, I'd probably be happier. That being said, I don't think cloaks are OP and do find them useful. My only real gripe would be the cloak shooting thing. Maybe less shimmer when crouch walking and more when sprinting? I dunno, I don't have a problem spotting cloakers normally. If I'm really pessimistic though - the community will never accept cloaks. Too many 'stand and deliver' types who find bastardly scout tactics cowardly and for scrubs. People whinged about being shotgunned or knifed in the back pre cloaks, just never on forums for fairly obvious reasons. The Gank/Tank imbalance for so long just promoted this kind of narrow minded thinking. Even without cloaks there would still be scout QQ for this reason. The Ghost of Bravo
CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 166	Posted - 2014.04.04 18:16:00 - [67] - Quote I agree that cloaking shouldn't grant a reduction to scan profile. Not only is it removing one of the actual counters to cloakers, it doesn't make sense--scan profile is determined by the amount of noise (ie, decibels) generated by a suit; since cloaks are electronic, activating one would increase the EM radiation/noise output, thereby increasing its profile. Just my opinion, but it makes sense to me. I think keeping visual cloaking (cloaks) and radar cloaking (profile dampening) as separate strategies is a good idea. This forces interested scouts to sacrifice a low slot to a damp, which is actually preferable for a stealth role anyway, since its bonus is passive, not active, like the cloak's. My other dropsuit is a Python.
Tectonic Fusion 1394	Posted - 2014.04.04 18:24:00 - [68] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: The people who are complaining don't care enough to counter cloaks using precision enhancers or scanners. A corpmate of mine uses to complex precision enhancers and manages to see most cloaked scouts. It might suck for health but that's the price you pay for countering basically an entire strategy of many enemies. Even if one person does this in a squad and sticks together, passive scans can protect you. Having a designated scan scout can save the squad from minjas easily. I say let it play out and eventually if there is no nerf people will adapt and sacrifice their up tank for precision Tactic* Not strategy. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Toby Flenderson research lab 450	Posted - 2014.04.04 19:14:00 - [69] - Quote Dauth Jenkins wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: TheD1CK wrote: Squad up, watch each others back, there's your cloak nerf right there Then why don't scouts have to squad up in order to be effective? Why don't scouts have to look behind them and use their eyes? Yeah sure I could do all these things that people keep telling me to do, but instead I can skill into scouts in order to: -See where the enemy is at all times -Not be detected easily -Play by myself -Get kills before anyone else can -Run away without fear of someone chasing me -Counter other scouts easily Yet if I want to play ANY other roles I have to adapt in so many ways to counter scouts. Using tactics to counter scouts all the time is like carrying around swarm launchers or forge guns all the time because I have to always be prepared to counter a tank. Except the things that counter scouts counter every other infantry as well. SL/FG do not help you against anything but tanks (generalizing that most people aren't FG prodigies). Also you're basically listing the perks of being a scout. This could be done with any suit. Heavies never have to worry about grenades or explosives in general. They have the best CQC weapon available. They have enough health to drop just about any suit in a CQC. They're targets for logi support. Logis are still able to tank a ridiculous amount of health. They get more equipment and bonuses to them. They have back speed bonuses. They get the most WP in general. You could keep going. My point is that scouts are good for ewar. That's the point of using a scout. It really seems like they're all getting **** for finally having a strength to play against the med/heavy suits Lol, try tanking the minmatar suits that CCP has made most logis use Aside from my token MLT FG fit, I'm pretty confident sure none of my fittings have more tha 400 ehp. I don't know what you consider a tank but any logi can be tanked by my standards. All you have to do is stack armor plates. If that's not enough then use shields too. If health is your priority then you don't also get to counter scout stealth
Toby Flenderson research lab 450	Posted - 2014.04.04 19:22:00 - [70] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: Ok here we go, @d1ck - SG + cloak are FOTM chasers because the combo is OP. Not because shotguns or speed SG or tanked SG are but because cloaks are. Nerf'ing cloaks would not hurt scouts for many reasons, but would solve two huge problems. As mentioned 1000 times scouts received a significant boost in 1.8 (and cloaks) which made them more viable, stronger , more flexible, more adaptable due to additional classes (their new roles), increases to slot layout (hi/low on current suits), and a second equipment slot. There is no disputing scouts have a unique role, a cloak is not required to play that role but rather skill, good decision making, strategy, patience and being selective (don't chase a 1600 heavy, don't take on 3 guys etc..). Quick recap, cloaks reward poor play and provide offensive and defensive advantage to player whose gameplay doesn't deserve such high rewards. Cloaks are low risk, high reward, no drawback easy buttons. @toby - people who don't care aren't using precision and range mods... Okay so if you spec'd into a cal scout you can be a 220 eHP scout who sees people coming but due to 2 lows can't avoid being seen himself, or due to 650-850 eHP scouts and 1600 eHP heavies can't do much in a battle outside place a remote or hide. You aren't going to see many scouts regardless, cloak + 1 complex damp (plus Gal scout racial bonus), check the chart. A Cal scout need 4 precision to pick up a cloaked scout using 1 complex damp, and can't find a Gal. That means you are required to be a Proto Cal scout with no eHP, no stealth, no speed, just to stand around and passively scan.. Sounds fun being a fragile useless guy who has to be high enough SP (12-14m SP) to avoid being able to do this, sounds like NPE is great, sounds like its a fun time doing ** all and still not seeing 1/2 the scouts. You say it protects you from minja's, yes the least used scout class who due to their ** 3-2 adv slot layout and lack of PG can't avoid to use stealth and speed or anything but NK which insanely high PG to screw the rest of their suit. Yea protect against a class which is so niche and low in numbers, and whose suits are the weakest in its class. What you are saying requires too much SP, doesn't protect against 1/2 of the scouts, and turns your char into a boob that isn't exactly having fun. The only thing I was thinking while reading your response to me was get gud. That's what I run. All of it. I have all 3 scouts mentioned above and I can with the help of a cloak, you don't need hardly any hp. Heavies don't have a clue when you come up behind them with no a knives. Caldari shouldn't be able to see everything, especially a scout who is using complex dampening and cloaks. But the thing is, if you're a scout using complex dampeners, you deserve to be invisible. You are complaining that they are all so fragile if they run scan mods and I agree. Just because you can't imagine being able to play this game without 600+ hp doesn't mean no one can. Seriously you just sound like an idiot crying about how you can't do something that a lot of us can pull off.

pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 1626	Posted - 2014.04.04 19:24:00 - [71] - Quote Here's my view on cloaks ...... your all dam fuckinglucky my Gunnlogi do sent have one . Other than that it's great for my e war cal scout as i can be a good target drop for my squad leaders ob it's fun when you run strait into a group of reds and Un cloak just as the ob comes downright on your head (not advisable for pc or fw ). Proud Gunlogi pilot and forge gunner since August 2012. I fought and bled for the State on Caldari prime.
lordjanuz Norwegian Dust514 Corporation Top Men. 310	Posted - 2014.04.04 19:27:00 - [72] - Quote Cloaking are fine, as a heavy player they dont bother me much, some shotgun have taken me down, but now a wile after 1.8 release there is not much problem. Mybe adjust so they cant fire until they are complete decloaked similar to EVE .
Oswald Rehnquist 1325	Posted - 2014.04.04 22:43:00 - [73] - Quote There are a lot of things to cover here from different people TL/DR: A 1-3 second cloaking delay + Swapping Assault and Scout Regen Values would fix most issues. Now for my other material Part 1: Cloak Dampening Explanation and Bug Correction First the dampening on the clock is ingenious and adds to good gameplay, creating submarine style tactics in Scout v Scout, which is very unique to dust and creates a special dynamic in scout v scout match ups, it is also a major balancing factor which balances scout line up between themselves. The biggest problem people have with scouts is their sheer offensive / defensive potential, and the first thing is the decloaking bug, which can be corrected by adding a 1-3 second firing delay to it, which will reduce the effect of the low skill tactics of Shotgun / Combat Rifle + Cloaks. Pre 1.8 active scanners made most medium frames secured in their false sense of security, cloaks just made it so scouts didn't get hit scanned on the way to a target. Part 2: Old Scout Debate, Force Recon vs Light Assault The biggest debate within the scout community has always been about where the scout should go and how it should be buffed. We are divided between our light assault community and our force recon community, for obvious reasons the slayer scout is more popular even prior to 1.8 (the rewards were greater and your personal Stats look better), but the recon subgroup still exists. In Eve, Cloaks take up space which are used for weapons, which directs Eve's cloaked units to more indirect combat role, particularly in the application of debuffs and status effects. Considering all "Recon" scouts have is hacking and uplink dropping, its not a very glorified or expansive role. Part 3 Inter Frame Comparative Performance and Utility Sentinels and Scouts are roughly the same tier and are balanced between themselves with very dramatically different playstyles. Logis whether you consider them mules or spammers they are equipment kings, a role which can not be mimic to the same degree, it is also a very necessary/relevant role to winning matches. Add to this that they gained more scanning abilities, can use cloaks effectively, so essentially are solidified as support with offensive potential. Assaults on the other hand are clearly outshined by scouts which can directly mimic their abilities. Even assuming all racial and role bonuses are of great and relatively equal value the scout outshines the assault. That is entirely due to the fact that the slot layouts between the two are too similar and the scout has a better array of innate stats, thus the question is how to differentiate the two. To make my point Assaults literally only have 130 ehp over a scout and loses in every other trait. Part 4 Potential Changes A high regen stat on scouts encourages brick tanking, a high regen is very much wasted if you can't survive an alpha attack or any short burst fire, thus more ehp is often chosen. If we were to switch scout and assault regen values, you essentially reduce assault downtime and reduce the effectiveness of brick tanking scouts, forcing them to choose their encounters more. Assaults could also use more slots and cpu considering they don't have any unique traits about them (no heavy weapons, no cloaking specialty) If we are allowed to screw over the light assault scout community, I'd say demote the light weapon slot to a sidearm slot (currently loving my ScR/BP combo), which would fix quite a few issues, mainly having a suit in the game with the one of the best weapon options, best scanning options, bests cloak usage, and an equipment utility, AKA Cloaked Scanning Light Assault Units. You'd see a major exodus of both old and new scouts should this happen, especially with 1.8 increasing the gap between sidearms and light weapons. So the question then turns to do we give assaults more relative power into the light assault role and siphon scouts into a more force recon role or do break up the scout into a light assault suit and a force recon suit. Below 28 dB
Tectonic Fusion 1407	Posted - 2014.04.04 23:48:00 - [74] - Quote CRNWLLC wrote: I agree that cloaking shouldn't grant a reduction to scan profile. Not only is it removing one of the actual counters to cloakers, it doesn't make sense--scan profile is determined by the amount of noise (ie, decibels) generated by a suit; since cloaks are electronic, activating one would increase the EM radiation/noise output, thereby increasing its profile. Just my opinion, but it makes sense to me. I think keeping visual cloaking (cloaks) and radar cloaking (profile dampening) as separate strategies is a good idea. This forces interested scouts to sacrifice a low slot to a damp, which is actually preferable for a stealth role anyway, since its bonus is passive, not active, like the cloak's. TBH I only use cloaks for the profile dampening. So it would be worthless for me if they do that. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 458	Posted - 2014.04.05 00:29:00 - [75] - Quote Almost OK but needs slightly less duration, fixing the sketchiness of the decloak noise and mild lengthening of the delay between decloak and firing. If those 3 things happen I'm perfectly fine with cloaks.
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 992	Posted - 2014.04.05 03:12:00 - [76] - Quote Maybe gal scout needs to lose a low slot? Allow gal scouts to respec after this of course. PLC, NK, Scout - before 1.8. That's right, I stack that OP Sh!t.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui The Containment Unit 508	Posted - 2014.04.05 04:09:00 - [77] - Quote Knight Solitaire wrote: CCP hasn't changed the Shotgun in months except for a few minor fixes, its the combination of the Cloak + Shotgun that is making the weapon look powerful. In this case its the Suit + Cloak Combined with the Shotgun. But the Shotgun itself is not OP. It's not OP but it doesn't need a range buff either like I see most suggest and have done so before 1.8 . Scouts have always been a threat with a shotgun and to hear the constant moaning about the shotgun , while they are 2 and 3 shot's to a heavy and 3 to 4 to a sentinel . It's starting to get old . It's a CQC weapon and is the most dangerous weapon next to remote explosives and a headshot from a sniper rifle . Oh yeah being OKH'd by a forge and all that power lies in a scout's hand . Stop whining about the shotgun . It's one of the few items in this game that has a defined role . Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 530	Posted - 2014.04.05 04:35:00 - [78] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: How far into 1.8 are we ??? This is way to early to call nerfs on Cloaking At the beginning of 1.7, HAV's were dominating by far, but due to players Adapting to using AV roles they were dealt with easily enough, bar some Scouts are only learning how to use this cloak that for once, actually does what it should The Cloak/Shotgunners in majority are the same guys who would be stomping in any FOTM Nerfing cloaks hurts Scouts, who finally fill a unique role on the battlefield in Dust514 Rather than jumping straight on Forums to QQ for nerfs, try adapting.... Scouts being invisible adds a whole new layer of CQC to our gaming While being tough to deal with, this is early days yet....... Squad up, watch each others back, there's your cloak nerf right there Tanks are still op. Also tanks dominated because of lazy programming I think the militia fuel injector gave 100% boost instead of 10%.
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 530	Posted - 2014.04.05 04:37:00 - [79] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Knight Solitaire wrote: CCP hasn't changed the Shotgun in months except for a few minor fixes, its the combination of the Cloak + Shotgun that is making the weapon look powerful. In this case its the Suit + Cloak Combined with the Shotgun. But the Shotgun itself is not OP. It's not OP but it doesn't need a range buff either like I see most suggest and have done so before 1.8 . Scouts have always been a threat with a shotgun and to hear the constant moaning about the shotgun , while they are 2 and 3 shot's to a heavy and 3 to 4 to a sentinel . It's starting to get old . It's a CQC weapon and is the most dangerous weapon next to remote explosives and a headshot from a sniper rifle . Oh yeah being OKH'd by a forge and all that power lies in a scout's hand . Stop whining about the shotgun . It's one of the few items in this game that has a defined role . So its ok for scouts to have a ohk weapon but not for a slow moving heavy? For a heavy our ohk weapon takes 4 seconds to charge up and we are giant targets that pretty much nobody should miss.
Dengar Skirata The Third Day Galactic Skyfleet Empire 96	Posted - 2014.04.05 04:53:00 - [80] - Quote I don't really have a problem with the cloak. I think it brought a new style of gameplay to the game, something that was badly needed. HOWEVER, I also believe that it is currently WAY TOO EASY to run around with a cloak and shotgun and destroy anything that gets in your way. It has become far too common to see a proto heavy get gunned downing two shots by a standard scout with a cloak and militia shotgun. And yes, I think its safe to say that scouts are the new FOTM. I was running around in a skirmish the other day in my assault suit. I hack an objective and within 5 seconds I'm surrounded by 4 cloaked scouts armed with shotguns. Thats when I logged off for the day. // Author of the Dust Spec Ops Tactics Handbook // Templis Dragonaur // Caldari Loyalist // MAG Veteran (RAVEN)

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4902	Posted - 2014.04.05 05:55:00 - [81] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: So its ok for scouts to have a ohk weapon but not for a slow moving heavy? For a heavy our ohk weapon takes 4 seconds to charge up and we are giant targets that pretty much nobody should miss. i want shotguns to have a 4 second charge up time to make them a more balanced weapon. Compare range on the Forge Gun to range on a Shotgun. The charge time is what makes the Forge not OP. The range restriction is what makes the Shotgun not OP. Nobody's saying a Forge Gun shouldn't OHK another player (I hope... if they are, lol). We're also not stopping your Commando suit from equipping a Sniper Rifle and a Shotgun for one-shot goodness. And for the record, against competently (not even heavily) tanked Heavy suits, a Shotgun WILL NOT INSTAKILL YOU. Unless they manage to land the entire spread of pellets onto your head, that is. In which case, you probably deserved it. And even then, some heavily-tanked suits will still be standing.
Ivy Zalinto Bobbit's Hangmen 354	Posted - 2014.04.05 06:53:00 - [82] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Thurak1 wrote: So its ok for scouts to have a ohk weapon but not for a slow moving heavy? For a heavy our ohk weapon takes 4 seconds to charge up and we are giant targets that pretty much nobody should miss. i want shotguns to have a 4 second charge up time to make them a more balanced weapon. Compare range on the Forge Gun to range on a Shotgun. The charge time is what makes the Forge not OP. The range restriction is what makes the Shotgun not OP. Nobody's saying a Forge Gun shouldn't OHK another player (I hope... if they are, lol). We're also not stopping your Commando suit from equipping a Sniper Rifle and a Shotgun for one-shot goodness. And for the record, against competently (not even heavily) tanked Heavy suits, a Shotgun WILL NOT INSTAKILL YOU. Unless they manage to land the entire spread of pellets onto your head, that is. In which case, you probably deserved it. And even then, some heavily-tanked suits will still be standing. I know for sure that my breach shotgun will not ohk or even two shot a fully tanked sentinel. It irritates me. My 2 isk on the other arguments earlier in the thread: The argument that flux should disable a cloak entirely is also bs. It would render caldari scouts in particular exceedingly vulnerable and be a hard counter rather than a tactical one. It would be the same issue when av grenades could pop 800k tanks. The shield based scouts would cease to exist. Armor scouts it wouldnt be so bad. I have played a gallente scout since the things were released. The speed on my suits are high enough to get out of the blast radius but honestly people just need to adjust. Cloaks arent the problem, I personally think fire rate on the shotguns are a problem. Drop the fire rate on all shotguns to that of the breach to simulate cycling another shell into the chamber and increase the breaches reload speed. Maybe a point or two more damage for breaches across the board to compensate for the low shell count. It needs to be able to kill a tanked sentinel in its magsize if shotguns are the counter to heavy suits. This isnt a must but would be nice. just my 2 isk Dedicated Stealth Scout. Scout instructor; Learning Coalition Sidearms are terribly underestimated.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4902	Posted - 2014.04.05 06:55:00 - [83] - Quote Ivy Zalinto wrote: My 2 isk on the other arguments earlier in the thread: The argument that flux should disable a cloak entirely is also bs. It would render caldari scouts in particular exceedingly vulnerable and be a hard counter rather than a tactical one. It would be the same issue when av grenades could pop 800k tanks. The shield based scouts would cease to exist. My perspective on this is that I would only support a Flux disabling a cloak if having the cloak active prevented your shields from going down.
Ivy Zalinto Bobbit's Hangmen 354	Posted - 2014.04.05 07:07:00 - [84] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Ivy Zalinto wrote: My 2 isk on the other arguments earlier in the thread: The argument that flux should disable a cloak entirely is also bs. It would render caldari scouts in particular exceedingly vulnerable and be a hard counter rather than a tactical one. It would be the same issue when av grenades could pop 800k tanks. The shield based scouts would cease to exist. My perspective on this is that I would only support a Flux disabling a cloak if having the cloak active prevented your shields from going down. I agree this could actually work but people would ***** about it. I dont see people happy until cloaking breaks both your weapons and slows your movement speed to a crawl for 30 seconds after you decloak. People are never really happy if something is killing them. Personally I dont see cloaks as a problem at all currently. Shotguns need a slight tweak but you cant nerf a players mind...well...not without adding controller input lag or something. Dedicated Stealth Scout. Scout instructor; Learning Coalition Sidearms are terribly underestimated.
HYENAKILLER X WILL FIGHT ANYONE 697	Posted - 2014.04.05 07:26:00 - [85] - Quote Kill zone 3 was substandard on every level compared to this game and it had cloaks. I personally hate them. Almost as much as tanks. But clearly people love them. Im not from new eden. I dont need back up, political power or support. I, unlike you dont fear nuetral territory.
The Robot Devil Brave Bunnies Brave Collective 2275	Posted - 2014.04.05 07:35:00 - [86] - Quote Good thread, not too much QQ and some good insight and suggestions. I don't use cloaks or shotguns so I am only coming from a Minmatar logi point of view. I like the cloaks how they are with the exception of bugs. I am worried about shotgun damage sometimes. The other day a militia shotgun done 750+ damage to me in two shots and then dropped my squad mate before we could react, I am not saying they are OP because it could be a head shot but it just seems a little powerful to be able to drop two players in a second or two. The player may have been good but 325 damage per shot seems high. I have shot up cloaked scouts and had them into armor only to have them turn around and drop me with a CR. I think the light frames ability to tank may be a bit too high because the cloak doesn't seem to have the disadvange that the counter to a cloak has. Passive scans take a slot where defense would go but the cloak takes an equipment slot that doesn't force the player to give up as much. I am not QQing but I do want to share my opinions with this tread and it think that the shotgun cloak is very powerful with few drawbacks when compared to the counters available to other suits, like more HP or better passive. Team work and situational awareness does make a huge difference but being in a team shouldn't be required for a solo player to profiable. I very much like the suggestion in this thread that flux should make scouts more visible, I don't think it should do anything to the cloak except make it more visible for a second or maybe even two. I would like to see a grenade introduced thats only job is to decloak, a decloak grenade would give us a very hard counter and help to disrupt cloak gameplay. There is absolutely nothing wrong with cloaky camping an objective but having a way to disrupt a cloak would be very fun and give us some more diversity to choose from. Along with a decloak grenade I would also like to see a piece of equipment, like a nanohive, that creates a decloak field that allows us to set up "cloak free" zones that a squad could work in. I feel a piece of equipment like this would give us a better hard counter and make cloakers think a little more instead of giving them an almost risk free kill. "One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production." Raoul Duke
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4910	Posted - 2014.04.05 08:22:00 - [87] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: I am worried about shotgun damage sometimes. The other day a militia shotgun done 750+ damage to me in two shots and then dropped my squad mate before we could react, I am not saying they are OP because it could be a head shot but it just seems a little powerful to be able to drop two players in a second or two. The player may have been good but 325 damage per shot seems high. By "325 damage" you mean "not enough to kill even most non-brick-tanked Scout suits". Pretty sure that SMALL an amount of damage is reasonable for a weapon with an effective range that competes with Nova Knives for shortest. Quote: I have shot up cloaked scouts and had them into armor only to have them turn around and drop me with a CR. I think the light frames ability to tank may be a bit too high because the cloak doesn't seem to have the disadvange that the counter to a cloak has. Passive scans take a slot where defense would go but the cloak takes an equipment slot that doesn't force the player to give up as much. If you were "shooting them up" while they're cloaked, and you're not in a Scout suit yourself, you should have comparable eHP at the very least, which means they managed to turn then MASSIVELY outmatch your damage output to catch up then exceed the damage you'd already put on them. Either you're using a sidearm and are a bad shot, or you're a terrible shot. I think the GalScout at least has slightly better fitting capabilities than it actually deserves, but I haven't played enough with fittings on the others to judge if they also have the same problem. It's not as huge an advantage as some QQers are trying to make it out to be, but there's definitely that one area which could probably use another look over. Quote: I am not QQing but I do want to share my opinions with this tread and it think that the shotgun cloak is very powerful with few drawbacks when compared to the counters available to other suits, like more HP or better passive. Team work and situational awareness does make a huge difference but being in a team shouldn't be required for a solo player to profiable. You don't need to be in a coordinated squad in order to run with teammates. It's a team game. Every game mode is team vs. team. You will ALWAYS be in a team when you're on the battlefield. As long as you're on the battlefield, there will be blue (or green) dots to stay with for that "safety in numbers" option.
The Robot Devil Brave Bunnies Brave Collective 2275	Posted - 2014.04.05 09:12:00 - [88] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: I am worried about shotgun damage sometimes. The other day a militia shotgun done 750+ damage to me in two shots and then dropped my squad mate before we could react, I am not saying they are OP because it could be a head shot but it just seems a little powerful to be able to drop two players in a second or two. The player may have been good but 325 damage per shot seems high. By "325 damage" you mean "not enough to kill even most non-brick-tanked Scout suits". Pretty sure that SMALL an amount of damage is reasonable for a weapon with an effective range that competes with Nova Knives for shortest. I agree, I am just saying that I am worried it is a bit high because in four shots tit did well over 1k damage in around two seconds. I don't necessarily think it needs a nerf or anything. I am just commenting on how much damage a militia shotgun can do in the amount of time that it does it. Quote: I have shot up cloaked scouts and had them into armor only to have them turn around and drop me with a CR. I think the light frames ability to tank may be a bit too high because the cloak doesn't seem to have the disadvantage that the counter to a cloak has. Passive scans take a slot where defense would go but the cloak takes an equipment slot that doesn't force the player to give up as much. If you were "shooting them up" while they're cloaked, and you're not in a Scout suit yourself, you should have comparable eHP at the very least, which means they managed to turn then MASSIVELY outmatch your damage output to catch up then exceed the damage you'd already put on them. Either you're using a sidearm and are a bad shot, or you're a terrible shot. I think the GalScout at least has slightly better fitting capabilities than it actually deserves, but I haven't played enough with fittings on the others to judge if they also have the same problem. It's not as huge an advantage as some QQers are trying to make it out to be, but there's definitely that one area which could probably use another look over. Quote: I am not QQing but I do want to share my opinions with this tread and it think that the shotgun cloak is very powerful with few drawbacks when compared to the counters available to other suits, like more HP or better passive. Team work and situational awareness does make a huge difference but being in a team shouldn't be required for a solo player to profiable. You don't need to be in a coordinated squad in order to run with teammates. It's a team game. Every game mode is team vs. team. You will ALWAYS be in a team when you're on the battlefield. As long as you're on the battlefield, there will be blue (or green) dots to stay with for that "safety in numbers" option. "One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production." Raoul Duke
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 469	Posted - 2014.04.05 09:18:00 - [89] - Quote After reading replies in this thread I have many issues. You cannot balance a weapon (in this case the shotgun) based off of cloaking. All weapons and indeed all modules including the cloak, have to be balanced in their own right. By this I mean, if you go adjusting / nerfing the shotgun for instance, or even the scout for that matter, you are going to break gameplay for those that use the shotgun who ARE NOT cloakers. The same applies for balancing scouts around the cloak, this could impact non cloak users. Everything has to be balanced in its own right. This game already has had many issues in terms of balance, I would hate to see it get broken further.
Akdhar Saif Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative 403	Posted - 2014.04.05 10:33:00 - [90] - Quote I personally think it's mostly protostompers but the cloak should be nerfed slightly by adding a cooldown timer or proximity deactivation.

Leonid Tybalt Inner.Hell 438	Posted - 2014.04.05 10:42:00 - [91] - Quote Knight Solitaire wrote: gotten to the point where I just wish I could buy all the Cloaks from the Market and keep them away from all the scrubs. Scout + Cloak is far too common right now, it doesn't take a genius to notice that this is the new FOTM. I knew they were going to be the next FOTM abused to no end as soon as they got announced. Unlike our tanks in ambush however, it's unlikely we'll see a well deserved "cloak cap". Cap all cloaks just like you got our (the dedicated drivers/pilots) vehicles capped, then we'll see how you like being unable to play with what you spent millions of skillpoints in, just because some low level scrub happened to spawn before you did at the beginning of a battle.
Joey-Number1 Maniacal Miners INC No Safe Haven 79	Posted - 2014.04.05 10:44:00 - [92] - Quote Cloaks are and should be the thing that keeps scouts from being nuked everywhere they go, and also loosing more than 10 suits per match. Don't forget how much they were dying in previous patches. Real scouts don't brick tank and therefore they need a good thing to keep them alive in some way. Tho you tend to use the cloaks more strategically and less often as you progress in learning how to play scout.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4917	Posted - 2014.04.05 11:07:00 - [93] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: I agree, I am just saying that I am worried it is a bit high because in four shots it did well over 1k damage in around two seconds. I don't necessarily think it needs a nerf or anything. I am just commenting on how much damage a militia shotgun can do in the amount of time that it does it. Look at the DPS on any Rifle, Most of them are in the range od 800+ damage PER SECOND. That's 1600 over 2 seconds. Still not seeing the problem with a Shotgun having around 1000 in a little over 2 seconds. Quote: I was in a Sever Min Logi with an Exile AR and I am a pretty bad shot. I don't know the the light suit and it is possible that it was an assault with a cloak but my point is that the suit tank is on the verge of too much as things are now. If there is a rebalanced to mediums then that may change all of that. Assaults in particular need a buff right now, and I think Logis could use a rework of how they get their benefits at the moment (not a buff or nerf specifically, but a change). Quote: Being in a team or in a squad are two different things, solo play styles shouldn't be totally negated by a specific weapon/suit combination. The point of my post was to tell why I think the cloaky scout shotgun may need another look because the combo does seem more powerful than the average suit setup. High speed, low dB, good tank, high alpha and a cloak seems to have few drawbacks. Like the slayer logi of old the combination of all these things is the real problem, not one or two specific things. If you don't want to work with a squad, then you're going for a "lone wolf" playstyle. That's a very specialised role, and there's an equally specialised suit which excels for it. If you want to play that way, you might want to consider a Scout suit Sorry, but it's true. Lone wolfing is WHAT SCOUTS DO. If you're doing it and you're NOT a Scout, then... well, you're doing it suboptimally, and you need to be more careful and more alert because you don't have the innate advantages Scouts have for that role. Also, DUST is a very team-focused shooter. Winning is about TEAM performance, not individual performance. I ran 0 kills for 9 deaths in a battle 2 days ago and was still ranked 2nd on the scoreboard for the winning team and considered an asset by my teammates. Why? Because I saved more than 9 lives, provided well-placed front-line Uplinks, and kept people stocked with ammo throughout the battle. My first act every time I saw my character's gun was to switch to something else. I literally had the 2nd highest score in the match without firing a single shot.
RKKR The Southern Legion League of Infamy 879	Posted - 2014.04.05 11:24:00 - [94] - Quote I wished I could drop an infinite amount of hives that lasted for X seconds (with some sort of cool-down period), that way I wouldn't have to run around aimlessy for most of the time. WOW guys...I think I just fixed another issue. For cloaks...just have a delay when you decloak...or force decloak by firing your equipment before you can switch to other stuff?
hold that Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 90	Posted - 2014.04.05 11:29:00 - [95] - Quote Ivy Zalinto wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Thurak1 wrote: So its ok for scouts to have a ohk weapon but not for a slow moving heavy? For a heavy our ohk weapon takes 4 seconds to charge up and we are giant targets that pretty much nobody should miss. i want shotguns to have a 4 second charge up time to make them a more balanced weapon. Compare range on the Forge Gun to range on a Shotgun. The charge time is what makes the Forge not OP. The range restriction is what makes the Shotgun not OP. Nobody's saying a Forge Gun shouldn't OHK another player (I hope... if they are, lol). We're also not stopping your Commando suit from equipping a Sniper Rifle and a Shotgun for one-shot goodness. And for the record, against competently (not even heavily) tanked Heavy suits, a Shotgun WILL NOT INSTAKILL YOU. Unless they manage to land the entire spread of pellets onto your head, that is. In which case, you probably deserved it. And even then, some heavily-tanked suits will still be standing. I know for sure that my breach shotgun will not ohk or even two shot a fully tanked sentinel. It irritates me. My 2 isk on the other arguments earlier in the thread: The argument that flux should disable a cloak entirely is also bs. It would render caldari scouts in particular exceedingly vulnerable and be a hard counter rather than a tactical one. It would be the same issue when av grenades could pop 800k tanks. The shield based scouts would cease to exist. Armor scouts it wouldnt be so bad. I have played a gallente scout since the things were released. The speed on my suits are high enough to get out of the blast radius but honestly people just need to adjust. Cloaks arent the problem, I personally think fire rate on the shotguns are a problem. Drop the fire rate on all shotguns to that of the breach to simulate cycling another shell into the chamber and increase the breaches reload speed. Maybe a point or two more damage for breaches across the board to compensate for the low shell count. It needs to be able to kill a tanked sentinel in its magsize if shotguns are the counter to heavy suits. This isnt a must but would be nice. just my 2 isk hell nah, then you penalize everyone who uses a sg and no cloak. the breach SG is never used for a reason
Ivy Zalinto Bobbit's Hangmen 359	Posted - 2014.04.05 17:34:00 - [96] - Quote hold that wrote: hell nah, then you penalize everyone who uses a sg and no cloak. the breach SG is never used for a reason Doesnt this seem like a problem? If a weapon isnt used at all, its an issue of the others in its class completely overpowering it. The breach shotgun has a tighter spread for a better grouping at range and yet, its underused because of the rate of fire. Either the breach needs better stats overall or the other shotguns need to be dropped a peg in those categories. Dedicated Stealth Scout. Scout instructor; Learning Coalition Sidearms are terribly underestimated.
Argetlam Thorson Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 27	Posted - 2014.04.05 18:44:00 - [97] - Quote Maybe instead of whining about cloaks, you guys should pay more attention. I don't have problems getting killed by cloaked players (scout or otherwise). I pay attention, I see them, I kill them. If you're doing well in a cloaked scout, maybe the reason is because other people aren't paying attention either. The cloak takes advantage of the lack of situational awareness that is rampant. Pay more attention, move slower, keep your eyes open, and cloaks wont be a problem.
Rusty Shallows 1421	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:42:00 - [98] - Quote Bump and MOAR DATA! Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
Medical Crash CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY 249	Posted - 2014.04.05 19:49:00 - [99] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: The people who are complaining don't care enough to counter cloaks using precision enhancers or scanners. A corpmate of mine uses to complex precision enhancers and manages to see most cloaked scouts. It might suck for health but that's the price you pay for countering basically an entire strategy of many enemies. Even if one person does this in a squad and sticks together, passive scans can protect you. Having a designated scan scout can save the squad from minjas easily. I say let it play out and eventually if there is no nerf people will adapt and sacrifice their up tank for precision Lol? Do you even run Active Scanners? They got nerfed. Hard. And you still can't see 1 scout (Gallente Scout with 2 Complex Dampners) This assumes you have the proto bonus of the Gal Logi and are using the correct suit. The Cloaks are not the problem, the extremely low profile of the Scouts is. Buff the Scanners a BIT (so 24/7 scans with a scout is not OP, but current active scan are? Crutch GTFO), Keep the snapshot, increase the radius a bit, LOWER the cooldowns, and either increase Scouts profile, or give the Gallente Logi a stronger bonus. It makes no sense for there to be 1 suit that is unscannable. All things should have counters, right now Scout is EASY mode because of their low profile. The smart Scouts went Gallente, they know stealth- no chance of being seen on the radar- is king. Until Scanners or the low profile of Scouts are fixed, I will continue to hide in corners with nothing but Proto Scanners and Multiple Complex Dampners with my full squad. I may not scan Gallente Scouts, but I sure as hell am scanning everyone else. I want to heal, I have a Minny Logi as well at Proto, but am flanked to much because NO ONE else ever runs strong enough scans. The only Scanner worth a damn right now is the Duvolle Focused Scanner, but you need the Gal Logi Bonus to make full use of it, 15 db. and you still can't scan 1 races suit.
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 386	Posted - 2014.04.05 20:25:00 - [100] - Quote I get real tired of hearing all this BS coming from scan crutch users and heavy suits about scouts. I ran scouts a long time ago, stopped for awhile, and have now picked them up again in 1.8 Stealth is king right now, as it should be. Scouts were in a real bad place before. With all the scanner spam going around, there was almost never a time you didn't get spotted, and no one had cloaks back then. Now that we can avoid radar and scans, people are crying that needs to be gotten rid of because everybody only wants to look right in front of them. I was someone who used to always carry an adv quantum scanner and I'm glad they're gone. Everybody that runs scouts with speed mods instead of brick tanking, surprise and stealth is our primary offensive weapon. We get seen and unless we're at immediate close range, we're dead. The cloaking weapon fire issue does need to be fixed, but as far as I'm concerned, stealth can stay as is. Start checking the perimeter of your squad and behind you for once. Plus like someone said above, precision enhancers are now relevant. Under your idea, you in the Gallente logis, should be able to scan everything while only sacrificing one equipment slot while still fully stacking armor and shield mods, but scouts should have to double and triple dampen to avoid scans leaving us without speed enhancers or an extra armor reserve. Always the last person to leave. Always the one cleaning up people's messes.

Medical Crash CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY 252	Posted - 2014.04.05 20:45:00 - [101] - Quote As I said before, Scanners were overnerfed, Scouts- the Gallente Scouts stealth in particular is a crutch. Cloaks are meaningless if you are on your enemies radar. Keeping the balance going, I simply ask for either the Gallente Logi to receive a stronger precision bonus, such that no one can evade its scan with a Duvolle Focused Scanner, or increase the Profile of Scouts so all suits can be scanned with THE MOST POWERFUL SCANNER in the game, the "Duvolle Focused Scanner". That equipment may only take "1 slot", but it has a cooldown time of 40 SECONDS, yes 40 SECONDS until you can use it again. And it's default scan time is 5 seconds, 7.5 if you are a Gallente Logi fully bonused. Yet with all of these penalties we still can't scan all suits. BS, that's broken, too UP, scanners need to be fixed. Scouts stealth is a crutch atm, Active Scanners are much much worse than Passive scans right now. Cloaks are a joke, they are not the problem.
SgtDoughnut DUST University Ivy League 573	Posted - 2014.04.06 00:52:00 - [102] - Quote Game goes from wallhacks to ninjas and everyone freaks the **** out.
knight guard fury The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 982	Posted - 2014.04.06 01:50:00 - [103] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: -Shotgun and cloak is OP and ridiculous. No 2 ways about it. -Fluxes should disable cloak for a short period not random bulletspray. -Keep the animation the same but don't allow fire until fully visible The stamina nature of cloaking is fine. You can see a cloaked scout plain as day as he runs around. The muzzle flashes from most weapons is what makes cloaked enemies hard to hit as you lose them in the strobe. I pulled this from another thread here, and will be pulling some more suggestions from that thread, as well as adding some more ideas as to possible changes. What I would like to see is what the community thinks is most important, so I'm creating this poll to help us see that. This is a multiple answer poll so please choose as many as you think are needed. http://poll.pollcode.com/38898533 Please post any other ideas not currently in the poll down below. Here's one specifically that I forgot to include in the poll that I absolutely support: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Increase volume of decloak sound for players other than the one cloaked. _________________________________________________________________ Another great community summary here Django Quik wrote: Most people are simply looking at the symptoms and blaming entirely the wrong thing for what's happening. Case in point: "I keep getting shotgun 2hk'd before I even know someone's there! The shotgun must be OP and the shotgun cloak combo must the OPOP because that's the only way I wouldn't have seen them." The biggest problem with the cloak is that you can still shoot at least for half a second while cloaked before it deactivates. During that time you get your extra dampening and lower visibility (even if it is still blurry, it's a difference). Once this is fixed, a massive proportion of the cloak QQ problems will instantly disappear. I still think the extra dampening bonus on cloaks is unnecessary - cloak does give a sizeable advantage already and if you want to be properly undetectable by most, you should have to sacrifice slots to do so. Ok so caldari scouts might still easily pick you up but that's one suit, one viable counter. Everything needs it's one viable counter. reduce timer to 30/45/60 reduce bonus to 15% force decloak animation whether u push R1 or R2 and cant fire until full decloak of the animation Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
DEZKA DIABLO THE FOOTCLAN 593	Posted - 2014.04.06 03:07:00 - [104] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: TheD1CK wrote: Squad up, watch each others back, there's your cloak nerf right there Then why don't scouts have to squad up in order to be effective? Why don't scouts have to look behind them and use their eyes? Yeah sure I could do all these things that people keep telling me to do, but instead I can skill into scouts in order to: -See where the enemy is at all times -Not be detected easily -Play by myself -Get kills before anyone else can -Run away without fear of someone chasing me -Counter other scouts easily Yet if I want to play ANY other roles I have to adapt in so many ways to counter scouts. Using tactics to counter scouts all the time is like carrying around swarm launchers or forge guns all the time because I have to always be prepared to counter a tank. A. It's a team or squad based game so if you play solo an get sg in the back you back shoulda been against a wall B. range an percision mods are these things you put on your suit, if B doesn't apply refer to A My remotes got NERFED cuz you whine like a B!+Gé¼[-]!
emtbraincase RETR0 PR0 GAMERS 97	Posted - 2014.04.06 03:21:00 - [105] - Quote Probably unnoticed, but almost all my kills are made from a place that you could put a 2 sec declack animation and it wouldn't matter. I also will declack from a bit of a distance to catch up faster and grab a quick hit then back into the clack. You could make just about any change to the animation and I wouldn't notice it. Again, easiest solution to clack is situational awareness.
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2851	Posted - 2014.04.06 03:52:00 - [106] - Quote emtbraincase wrote: Probably unnoticed, but almost all my kills are made from a place that you could put a 2 sec declack animation and it wouldn't matter. I also will declack from a bit of a distance to catch up faster and grab a quick hit then back into the clack. You could make just about any change to the animation and I wouldn't notice it. Again, easiest solution to clack is situational awareness. During that second or so of de-cloak animation I will notice a red blip appear on my radar and will be able to turn around and have a fair chance at facing you. Also, if the sound of de-cloaking were actually working as intended then I'd also be able to hear you if you did it too close to me. Links: 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! I make logistics videos!
deezy dabest CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY 300	Posted - 2014.04.06 03:53:00 - [107] - Quote The scouts that shotgunned me before still shot gun me. The scouts I killed before still get killed. I really can not say that I feel like cloaks have turned the tides in either direction from my point of view. Honestly in my opinion if cloaks are an issue for you maybe you should stop with the tunnel vision towards the end of your gun and pay attention to the other 90% of the screen. Sign me up as one of the few who does not use a cloak and is totally fine with them as they are.
Greasepalms Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 559	Posted - 2014.04.06 03:58:00 - [108] - Quote basic and adv cloaks are too good. Proto is redundant.
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2851	Posted - 2014.04.06 04:07:00 - [109] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: The scouts that shotgunned me before still shot gun me. The scouts I killed before still get killed. I really can not say that I feel like cloaks have turned the tides in either direction from my point of view. Honestly in my opinion if cloaks are an issue for you maybe you should stop with the tunnel vision towards the end of your gun and pay attention to the other 90% of the screen. Sign me up as one of the few who does not use a cloak and is totally fine with them as they are. 1.7: I was a horrible scout and couldn't do very well at all with it 1.8: All of a sudden the cloak lets me get 30+ kills in a match with advanced gear and standard weapons. In 1.8, I die 10+ times every match now because of cloaked shotgun scouts even when I'm sppinning in circles with how much I'm watching my back. It doesn't matter if I see them or not because of how many of them stack their suits with tons of HP. If I do catch them sneaking up on me, 4/5 times I can't kill them fast enough because they have over 500 hp and are jumping all over the place. Then I start using the scout and I die maybe an average of 3-4 times. My logi suit costs 200k, yet this scout suit costs 23k...and it's 10x as effective. Why should I use my logi, my heavy, my commando, heck even my amarr assault when all of these suits don't stand a chance against a scout no matter how I fit them? ^ This is why it's a problem. Links: 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! I make logistics videos!
emtbraincase RETR0 PR0 GAMERS 97	Posted - 2014.04.06 05:10:00 - [110] - Quote I have a std shotgun scout. If you sneeze in my direction, let alone bump into me, I will drop. I use the dren scout and the dren shot, and my eHP is 249 (basic enhancer, dampener, KinCat & Stam Boost w/ Mlt SMG). I also rarely declack close enough that the noise would make much difference, as I said before I like the declack sprint shot to deliver the hit. I do this because being able to reclack fast is more important to me than keeping it up till right before the trigger pull. If the person even had a chance to see me without the clack, I would be doing it wrong. P.S. Logi by trade, Scout for amusement. Only time a clack gets me is if I got a rep tool out when I see them, and my heavy isn't particularly aware of their surroundings at that time. Cant switch back to weapon in time to defend myself, pretty much the only time I fall (aside from the eHP monsters that will not be an issue once the sidearm challenge ends, AA FTW). P.P.S. Can't be said enough, learn to situational awareness.

Defy Gravity Knights of Eternal Darkness League of Infamy 377	Posted - 2014.04.06 05:12:00 - [111] - Quote No. ?pGêÇWGê¬ ...u-ìop ¦¥p-¦sdn s-¦ OIq -Ä+í s¦¥-Ä
DEZKA DIABLO THE FOOTCLAN 593	Posted - 2014.04.06 05:53:00 - [112] - Quote knight guard fury wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: -Shotgun and cloak is OP and ridiculous. No 2 ways about it. -Fluxes should disable cloak for a short period not random bulletspray. -Keep the animation the same but don't allow fire until fully visible The stamina nature of cloaking is fine. You can see a cloaked scout plain as day as he runs around. The muzzle flashes from most weapons is what makes cloaked enemies hard to hit as you lose them in the strobe. I pulled this from another thread here, and will be pulling some more suggestions from that thread, as well as adding some more ideas as to possible changes. What I would like to see is what the community thinks is most important, so I'm creating this poll to help us see that. This is a multiple answer poll so please choose as many as you think are needed. http://poll.pollcode.com/38898533 Please post any other ideas not currently in the poll down below. Here's one specifically that I forgot to include in the poll that I absolutely support: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Increase volume of decloak sound for players other than the one cloaked. _________________________________________________________________ Another great community summary here Django Quik wrote: Most people are simply looking at the symptoms and blaming entirely the wrong thing for what's happening. Case in point: "I keep getting shotgun 2hk'd before I even know someone's there! The shotgun must be OP and the shotgun cloak combo must the OPOP because that's the only way I wouldn't have seen them." The biggest problem with the cloak is that you can still shoot at least for half a second while cloaked before it deactivates. During that time you get your extra dampening and lower visibility (even if it is still blurry, it's a difference). Once this is fixed, a massive proportion of the cloak QQ problems will instantly disappear. I still think the extra dampening bonus on cloaks is unnecessary - cloak does give a sizeable advantage already and if you want to be properly undetectable by most, you should have to sacrifice slots to do so. Ok so caldari scouts might still easily pick you up but that's one suit, one viable counter. Everything needs it's one viable counter. reduce timer to 30/45/60 reduce bonus to 15% force decloak animation whether u push R1 or R2 and cant fire until full decloak of the animation So your basically saying break it? My remotes got NERFED cuz you whine like a B!+Gé¼[-]!
Leonid Tybalt Inner.Hell 441	Posted - 2014.04.07 11:24:00 - [113] - Quote LEHON Xeon wrote: I get real tired of hearing all this BS coming from scan crutch users and heavy suits about scouts. I ran scouts a long timfact o, stopped for awhile, and have now picked them up again in 1.8 Stealth is king right now, as it should be. Scouts were in a real bad place before. With all the scanner spam going around, there was almost never a time you didn't get spotted, and no one had cloaks back then. Now that we can avoid radar and scans, people are crying that needs to be gotten rid of because everybody only wants to look right in front of them. I was someone who used to always carry an adv quantum scanner and I'm glad they're gone. Everybody that runs scouts with speed mods instead of brick tanking, surprise and stealth is our primary offensive weapon. We get seen and unless we're at immediate close range, we're dead. The cloaking weapon fire issue does need to be fixed, but as far as I'm concerned, stealth can stay as is. Start checking the perimeter of your squad and behind you for once. Plus like someone said above, precision enhancers are now relevant. Under your idea, you in the Gallente logis, should be able to scan everything while only sacrificing one equipment slot while still fully stacking armor and shield mods, but scouts should have to double and triple dampen to avoid scans leaving us without speed enhancers or an extra armor reserve. People aren't complaining about scouts because scanners aren't as good anymore and that you can't see them on radar. I've never relied on radar or scans against infantry anyway. What people don't like is that the cloaked suits are hard to see period, and the fact that cloaks are over used FOTM bullshit. Also, this entire debate is rather hypocritical because last time around the community complained about tanks, while the proponents only replied "get guuuud, scrub!". Which is pretty much the standard response now to anyone saying anything critical about scouts and cloaks.
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1359	Posted - 2014.04.07 13:22:00 - [114] - Quote Cloak + Scout = New ballgame... Not everyone has the stomach to run around in a 200+ Ehp suit and still kick ****... btw suits cost from 120k to 180k I see why most people are mad... tanking a scout is the stupid way to go...
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 889	Posted - 2014.04.07 13:47:00 - [115] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: TheD1CK wrote: Squad up, watch each others back, there's your cloak nerf right there Then why don't scouts have to squad up in order to be effective? Why don't scouts have to look behind them and use their eyes? Yeah sure I could do all these things that people keep telling me to do, but instead I can skill into scouts in order to: -See where the enemy is at all times -Not be detected easily -Play by myself -Get kills before anyone else can -Run away without fear of someone chasing me -Counter other scouts easily Yet if I want to play ANY other roles I have to adapt in so many ways to counter scouts. Using tactics to counter scouts all the time is like carrying around swarm launchers or forge guns all the time because I have to always be prepared to counter a tank. First scouts DO perform better in a squad, and I think most don't care if the scout is part of a squad. Secondly countering scouts is not very hard even when you are solo, I can do it and I am at best mediocre Apart from that how fit relying on a squad to be useful to the scouts role? Every suit has some pros and some cons maybe you should start using your suit to its strength instead of whining that a different suit has different strengths... If a scout runs up to you frontal and kills you with two or more SG shots you are just bad or heavily distracted in both cases the outcome would not be different if the cloak was not there. The cloak is way less effective than most want it to make. The shimmer is noticeable enough to get easily shot while running without cover. Its noticeable enough to get sniped... And still the scout has no weapon in his hand while running cloaked if you shoot him he can't shoot back for roughly a second, if you cant take this to your advantage I can't help you. If the scout SG combo would be soooo OP why in gods name are roughly 60 to 80% of the kills I see still from rifles? Why is not everyone running a cloaked scout? To be precise I encounter why more heavies than scouts, I encounter even more brick tanked logis than scouts... Sure a good cloaked scout is annoying but a good heavy or assault logi is as well.
The Headless Horseman Paladin Survey Force Amarr Empire 163	Posted - 2014.04.07 13:53:00 - [116] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: Here's my view on cloaks ...... your all dam fuckinglucky my Gunnlogi do sent have one . Other than that it's great for my e war cal scout as i can be a good target drop for my squad leaders ob it's fun when you run strait into a group of reds and Un cloak just as the ob comes downright on your head (not advisable for pc or fw ). LMAO! I WISH they would put cloaks on tanks. You would NEVER get past my 4 damage mod Gastun forge. Signed, Sealed, Delivered
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 428	Posted - 2014.04.07 13:54:00 - [117] - Quote emtbraincase wrote: Probably unnoticed, but almost all my kills are made from a place that you could put a 2 sec declack animation and it wouldn't matter. I also will declack from a bit of a distance to catch up faster and grab a quick hit then back into the clack. You could make just about any change to the animation and I wouldn't notice it. Again, easiest solution to clack is situational awareness. So your vote is for the 2 second delay since it wouldn't matter. There seems to be a lot of cloakers saying they could do what they are doing without the cloak, so there should be no resistance to the changes proposed. Because, that's why.
emtbraincase RETR0 PR0 GAMERS 116	Posted - 2014.04.09 02:09:00 - [118] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: emtbraincase wrote: Probably unnoticed, but almost all my kills are made from a place that you could put a 2 sec declack animation and it wouldn't matter. I also will declack from a bit of a distance to catch up faster and grab a quick hit then back into the clack. You could make just about any change to the animation and I wouldn't notice it. Again, easiest solution to clack is situational awareness. So your vote is for the 2 second delay since it wouldn't matter. There seems to be a lot of cloakers saying they could do what they are doing without the cloak, so there should be no resistance to the changes proposed. Actually, my vote is for everyone to pay more attention to their surroundings before thinking something needs a nerf. I am not for, or against, any kind of nerf generally. I think until people have time to get used to there being cloaked mercs on the battlefield it is difficult to balance. As myself and a few others have pointed out, it is a rarity for some of us to get scout shotty'd, and it is generally because we don't allow ourselves to be put in many situations where that is even a remote possibility. I'm not saying "git gud", I'm saying the learning curve for anything is relative to the individual. Some of us adapted to clacks early, for some it will take awhile. I think just making the animation finish before you fire would solve most all problems, which is what I thought was the intention. So until they work like they were supposed to, I can't vote for a nerf. But I can vote for them do function as intended, whatever that means.
Ananke Gaia Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2014.05.08 21:05:00 - [119] - Quote The amount of people cloaking and shotgunning is getting ridiculous. I can't go 1 match without it happening to me and now I don't even have motivation to use good suits or gear knowing the same guy who spends the entire match doing that will keep killing me. There needs to be something to prevent the abuse of this.
Medical Crash Paladin Survey Force Amarr Empire 333	Posted - 2014.05.08 21:56:00 - [120] - Quote At leastyouguys get to use cloaks. I have to run counter tank duty every god forsaken match because I have an SSD. I wish CCP would make an infantry only mode already since they're done with this console. I'll take a full 16 team of enemy scouts over tanks any day. Oh and please keep bringing out triple rep maddys, I switched back to DMG MODed Missile turrets to counter you scrubs.



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