Shayz makes some good points on both sides, but his argument isn't cloaks vs cloaking removal, it's how to nerf cloaks more or less which means people are starting to recognize that cloaks are a easy button. They are low risk, high reward, no drawback equipment slot (but logi don't have a bonus to it) that rewards bad gameplay, and doesn't punish a scouts mistakes.

I am not saying there are no reasonable points made by people, why doesn't a flux remove a cloak. Seems to be a no brainer. Shouldn't a certain damage% remove the cloaking feature, would make sense. Shouldn't cloaks last less time, or have longer cool downs, i don't know about that.

Someone mentioned that scouts were better slayers than logi's now - I'm not sure about that, I can make a pretty damn good brick tank logi, all that CPU/PG and 4 or 5 lows means speed, stamina, high eHP. Sure it means you will be seen, but except for a Gal scout most scouts (Amarr maybe not at Proto) are being seen. Cal Proto and adv are being seen because they have two low slots so double dampening might not be an option, especially when they are using 3-4 hi's on enhancers. Min scouts are also not in the stealth game because 2 lows at adv and 3 lows at Proto seriously hurt their speed game. This is particularity a problem at adv, and a massive problem when equipping a high PG weapon like NK (no reduction skill, high PG in kin cats and cloaks as well).

Scouts are not the problem, the cloaks are. And yes, there are things you can do to nerf them but why not outright remove them? It's just a bunch of "elite" players who don't want to see their crutch go and the return to a high risk, high reward class based in skill and strategy and not easy button mode. At the same time, the middle of the road player who are struggling with being a scout have found their lack of skill doesn't apply here, and are fighting even harder to keep their **** gameplay relevant. From their mediocrity, cloaks have given these players the tool (singular) necessary to be a constant top 3 threat, given them the ability to slay all foes big or small, and given them the easy mode required so they are not punished for their many many mistakes.

Lets for the sake of argument just highlight the fact that cloaked scout is impossible for most new players to use due to the high SO requirements of max'ing out the scout (2.8m SP) to get reduction bonuses.

The same thing Cotsy always says.

The people who are complaining don't care enough to counter cloaks using precision enhancers or scanners. A corpmate of mine uses to complex precision enhancers and manages to see most cloaked scouts. It might suck for health but that's the price you pay for countering basically an entire strategy of many enemies. Even if one person does this in a squad and sticks together, passive scans can protect you. Having a designated scan scout can save the squad from minjas easily.

I say let it play out and eventually if there is no nerf people will adapt and sacrifice their up tank for precision

Lol, try tanking the minmatar suits that CCP has made most logis use

Ok here we go,

@d1ck - SG + cloak are FOTM chasers because the combo is OP. Not because shotguns or speed SG or tanked SG are but because cloaks are. Nerf'ing cloaks would not hurt scouts for many reasons, but would solve two huge problems. As mentioned 1000 times scouts received a significant boost in 1.8 (and cloaks) which made them more viable, stronger , more flexible, more adaptable due to additional classes (their new roles), increases to slot layout (hi/low on current suits), and a second equipment slot.
There is no disputing scouts have a unique role, a cloak is not required to play that role but rather skill, good decision making, strategy, patience and being selective (don't chase a 1600 heavy, don't take on 3 guys etc..). Quick recap, cloaks reward poor play and provide offensive and defensive advantage to player whose gameplay doesn't deserve such high rewards. Cloaks are low risk, high reward, no drawback easy buttons.

@toby - people who don't care aren't using precision and range mods... Okay so if you spec'd into a cal scout you can be a 220 eHP scout who sees people coming but due to 2 lows can't avoid being seen himself, or due to 650-850 eHP scouts and 1600 eHP heavies can't do much in a battle outside place a remote or hide. You aren't going to see many scouts regardless, cloak + 1 complex damp (plus Gal scout racial bonus), check the chart. A Cal scout need 4 precision to pick up a cloaked scout using 1 complex damp, and can't find a Gal. That means you are required to be a Proto Cal scout with no eHP, no stealth, no speed, just to stand around and passively scan.. Sounds fun being a fragile useless guy who has to be high enough SP (12-14m SP) to avoid being able to do this, sounds like NPE is great, sounds like its a fun time doing **** all and still not seeing 1/2 the scouts.
You say it protects you from minja's, yes the least used scout class who due to their **** 3-2 adv slot layout and lack of PG can't avoid to use stealth and speed or anything but NK which insanely high PG to screw the rest of their suit. Yea protect against a class which is so niche and low in numbers, and whose suits are the weakest in its class.
What you are saying requires too much SP, doesn't protect against 1/2 of the scouts, and turns your char into a boob that isn't exactly having fun.

I agree that cloaking shouldn't grant a reduction to scan profile. Not only is it removing one of the actual counters to cloakers, it doesn't make sense--scan profile is determined by the amount of noise (ie, decibels) generated by a suit; since cloaks are electronic, activating one would increase the EM radiation/noise output, thereby increasing its profile. Just my opinion, but it makes sense to me.

I think keeping visual cloaking (cloaks) and radar cloaking (profile dampening) as separate strategies is a good idea. This forces interested scouts to sacrifice a low slot to a damp, which is actually preferable for a stealth role anyway, since its bonus is passive, not active, like the cloak's.

CCP hasn't changed the Shotgun in months except for a few minor fixes, its the combination of the Cloak + Shotgun that is making the weapon look powerful.

In this case its the Suit + Cloak Combined with the Shotgun. But the Shotgun itself is not OP.

How far into 1.8 are we ??? This is way to early to call nerfs on Cloaking
At the beginning of 1.7, HAV's were dominating by far, but due to players
Adapting to using AV roles they were dealt with easily enough, bar some

Scouts are only learning how to use this cloak that for once, actually does what it should
The Cloak/Shotgunners in majority are the same guys who would be stomping in any FOTM
Nerfing cloaks hurts Scouts, who finally fill a unique role on the battlefield in Dust514
Rather than jumping straight on Forums to QQ for nerfs, try adapting....

Scouts being invisible adds a whole new layer of CQC to our gaming
While being tough to deal with, this is early days yet.......
Squad up, watch each others back, there's your cloak nerf right there

It's not OP but it doesn't need a range buff either like I see most suggest and have done so before 1.8 .

Scouts have always been a threat with a shotgun and to hear the constant moaning about the shotgun , while they are 2 and 3 shot's to a heavy and 3 to 4 to a sentinel .

It's starting to get old . It's a CQC weapon and is the most dangerous weapon next to remote explosives and a headshot from a sniper rifle . Oh yeah being OKH'd by a forge and all that power lies in a scout's hand .

Stop whining about the shotgun . It's one of the few items in this game that has a defined role .

So its ok for scouts to have a ohk weapon but not for a slow moving heavy? For a heavy our ohk weapon takes 4 seconds to charge up and we are giant targets that pretty much nobody should miss.
i want shotguns to have a 4 second charge up time to make them a more balanced weapon.

Compare range on the Forge Gun to range on a Shotgun. The charge time is what makes the Forge not OP. The range restriction is what makes the Shotgun not OP.

Nobody's saying a Forge Gun shouldn't OHK another player (I hope... if they are, lol). We're also not stopping your Commando suit from equipping a Sniper Rifle and a Shotgun for one-shot goodness.

And for the record, against competently (not even heavily) tanked Heavy suits, a Shotgun WILL NOT INSTAKILL YOU. Unless they manage to land the entire spread of pellets onto your head, that is. In which case, you probably deserved it. And even then, some heavily-tanked suits will still be standing.

My 2 isk on the other arguments earlier in the thread:
The argument that flux should disable a cloak entirely is also bs. It would render caldari scouts in particular exceedingly vulnerable and be a hard counter rather than a tactical one. It would be the same issue when av grenades could pop 800k tanks. The shield based scouts would cease to exist.

My perspective on this is that I would only support a Flux disabling a cloak if having the cloak active prevented your shields from going down.

I am worried about shotgun damage sometimes. The other day a militia shotgun done 750+ damage to me in two shots and then dropped my squad mate before we could react, I am not saying they are OP because it could be a head shot but it just seems a little powerful to be able to drop two players in a second or two. The player may have been good but 325 damage per shot seems high.

I have shot up cloaked scouts and had them into armor only to have them turn around and drop me with a CR. I think the light frames ability to tank may be a bit too high because the cloak doesn't seem to have the disadvange that the counter to a cloak has. Passive scans take a slot where defense would go but the cloak takes an equipment slot that doesn't force the player to give up as much.

I am not QQing but I do want to share my opinions with this tread and it think that the shotgun cloak is very powerful with few drawbacks when compared to the counters available to other suits, like more HP or better passive. Team work and situational awareness does make a huge difference but being in a team shouldn't be required for a solo player to profiable.

I am worried about shotgun damage sometimes. The other day a militia shotgun done 750+ damage to me in two shots and then dropped my squad mate before we could react, I am not saying they are OP because it could be a head shot but it just seems a little powerful to be able to drop two players in a second or two. The player may have been good but 325 damage per shot seems high.

I have shot up cloaked scouts and had them into armor only to have them turn around and drop me with a CR. I think the light frames ability to tank may be a bit too high because the cloak doesn't seem to have the disadvantage that the counter to a cloak has. Passive scans take a slot where defense would go but the cloak takes an equipment slot that doesn't force the player to give up as much.

I am not QQing but I do want to share my opinions with this tread and it think that the shotgun cloak is very powerful with few drawbacks when compared to the counters available to other suits, like more HP or better passive. Team work and situational awareness does make a huge difference but being in a team shouldn't be required for a solo player to profiable.