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Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance 242	Posted - 2014.02.04 20:54:00 - [1] - Quote Why?
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 3933	Posted - 2014.02.04 20:57:00 - [2] - Quote Because, the codename of the Amarr Scout was..............-------________... Sumo =ƒÿé My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
Denak Kalamari Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative 1013	Posted - 2014.02.04 20:58:00 - [3] - Quote Because Amarr suits are not designed for speed, but durability. Sure, your Minmatar assault can run faster than an Amarr scout, but the Amarr scout keeps on blazing by as the Minmatar Assault stopped to catch a breath five times already. Grahisha of ILF // Writer of Thoughts of a Clone Soldier // Latest entry published Jan. 29th
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 108	Posted - 2014.02.04 20:59:00 - [4] - Quote 4 lows vs 2 lows Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 1856	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:03:00 - [5] - Quote Because CCP. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Forum Warrior lv.1 Amarr victor!
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 573	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:03:00 - [6] - Quote because Minmatar Assault needs at least one up-side Minmatar Demolitions Specialist Plasma Cannon Pro
Emperor1349 Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 9	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:05:00 - [7] - Quote Lmao yeah nerf the min assault speed its so OP. The amarr scout is not even out yet. Crying R.I.P Mag - SVER
COVERT SUBTERFUGE PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 125	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:08:00 - [8] - Quote Because Amarr are good for cleaning Matari toilets and little else. Subterfuge and terrorist GOD in the making Proud Minmatar - Alt of THE GREY CARDINAL Love the Art of War
Nocturnal Soul Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 1824	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:11:00 - [9] - Quote I don't care what anyone thinks, its just bullshit that an any assaults suit base speed is faster than any scouts it just defeats the purpose of being a scout and should be change ASAP New born sAMARRi
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 3934	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:19:00 - [10] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: because Minmatar Assault needs at least one up-side That suit is @ss though, not gonna lie. My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior

Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1516	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:36:00 - [11] - Quote Minmatar are notorious speed tankers. Amarr are notorious slow asses who bricktank with armor. IMHO, all Minmatar dropsuits should be as fast as the Amarr dropsuits of one frame size smaller. It isn't like AA won't make the speed bonus balanced. Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 6393	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:42:00 - [12] - Quote Denak Kalamari wrote: Because Amarr suits are not designed for speed, but durability. Sure, your Minmatar assault can run faster than an Amarr scout, but the Amarr scout keeps on blazing by as the Minmatar Assault stopped to catch a breath five times already. Not to mention that these are just the base stats, scouts usually invest at least a few points into biotics, specifically kinetic catalyzers, which would improve their base speed and possibly make the Amarr scout a bit faster than a standard Minmatar assault It's a scout, it needs to be faster than assaults. Something something about the Amarr variant of the fastest ship class in EVE is still faster than the Minmatar version of the second fastest ship class in EVE. What is stupid is the Amarr are given this speed penalty because they get more base HP, something scouts don't really care about, and that the difference between base HP is relatively smaller when you compare the Amarr scout to other scouts yet it gets the same amount of speed penalty. DozersMouse XIII wrote: 4 lows vs 2 lows So does the Gallente scout, plus faster plus an inherent 3 armor repair per second. Gallente scout is just better. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1827	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:44:00 - [13] - Quote Because Amarr is slow, that how it works. Because Minmatar is fast that how it works. So the fast suit is slower than the slow suit. As expected. Don't be suprised if the Minmatar heavy is faster than the Amarr Logi Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
R F Gyro Clones 4u 1101	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:44:00 - [14] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: I don't care what anyone thinks, its just bullshit that an assaults suit base speed is faster than any scouts it just defeats the purpose of being a scout and should be change ASAP If you want a fast scout, run a fast scout suit. If you want a stealthy scout, run a stealthy scout suit. If you want a tanky scout, run a tanky scout suit. RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance 245	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:44:00 - [15] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Minmatar are notorious speed tankers. Amarr are notorious slow asses who bricktank with armor. IMHO, all Minmatar dropsuits should be as fast as the Amarr dropsuits of one frame size smaller. It isn't like AA won't make the speed bonus balanced. So you think the minmatar heavy should be as fast as the amarr medium? Well shouldn't that also mean the same then, that amarr suits should have more HP than the larger sized minmatar suits? I mean fair is fair.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 6395	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:50:00 - [16] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: I don't care what anyone thinks, its just bullshit that an assaults suit base speed is faster than any scouts it just defeats the purpose of being a scout and should be change ASAP If you want a fast scout, run a fast scout suit. If you want a stealthy scout, run a stealthy scout suit. If you want a tanky scout, run a tanky scout suit. Why would you want a tanky scout? That defeats the purpose. Also Gallente is better at tanking than Amarr because they get the natural 3 armor repair per second so don't have to use a low slot for reps and can use that saved spot to easily surpass the measly 30 HP advantage Amarr scouts start out with. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 6395	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:52:00 - [17] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Minmatar are notorious speed tankers. Amarr are notorious slow asses who bricktank with armor. IMHO, all Minmatar dropsuits should be as fast as the Amarr dropsuits of one frame size smaller. It isn't like AA won't make the speed bonus balanced. So you think the minmatar heavy should be as fast as the amarr medium? Well shouldn't that also mean the same then, that amarr suits should have more HP than the larger sized minmatar suits? I mean fair is fair. Sounds fair to me. Though it would just be better if they made clearly defined speed ranges for each class that didn't overlap. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Awry Barux Paladin Survey Force Amarr Empire 446	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:52:00 - [18] - Quote Also, Amarr scout bonus is trash compared to other bonuses. Other suits receive the equivalent of a complex module or more from the suit bonuses, while the Amarr scout gets less than a basic cardiac reg.
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 673	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:52:00 - [19] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Minmatar are notorious speed tankers. Amarr are notorious slow asses who bricktank with armor. IMHO, all Minmatar dropsuits should be as fast as the Amarr dropsuits of one frame size smaller. It isn't like AA won't make the speed bonus balanced. So you think the minmatar heavy should be as fast as the amarr medium? Well shouldn't that also mean the same then, that amarr suits should have more HP than the larger sized minmatar suits? I mean fair is fair. I'm fine with that. Amarr scout with 155 armor at lv3 armor upgrades and 190 or so shield? But it thought you didnt like twin tanking... Regardless i don't see it being a problem. Under 28db Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14) Selling SP: 10k SP per 100k ISK.
Cyrius Li-Moody 3273	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:53:00 - [20] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Why would you want a tanky scout? That defeats the purpose. Tell that to marauder/appia. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 6397	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:54:00 - [21] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Why would you want a tanky scout? That defeats the purpose. Tell that to marauder/appia. See the part of the quote you cut out, "Also Gallente is better at tanking than Amarr because they get the natural 3 armor repair per second so don't have to use a low slot for reps and can use that saved spot to easily surpass the measly 30 HP advantage Amarr scouts start out with." ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 215	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:58:00 - [22] - Quote people who say tha amarr scout are ok are ****** mentally ill ,,,and by the why 85 hp basic armor plate hav 2 % penalty 85/40 = - 0,94 % speed penalty so to me ground speed should be 5,35 ms just 0.10 m faster than min assault and 7,53 ms for sprint. Fatal Absolution bench proficiency lvl 5 why so serious zatara
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1518	Posted - 2014.02.04 22:36:00 - [23] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Minmatar are notorious speed tankers. Amarr are notorious slow asses who bricktank with armor. IMHO, all Minmatar dropsuits should be as fast as the Amarr dropsuits of one frame size smaller. It isn't like AA won't make the speed bonus balanced. So you think the minmatar heavy should be as fast as the amarr medium? Well shouldn't that also mean the same then, that amarr suits should have more HP than the larger sized minmatar suits? I mean fair is fair. Giving that amount of tank to the amarr dropsuits is just ridiculous. They are already the most significantly tanked dropsuits, though they are also slow. Minmatar, OTOH, having the same speed as Amarr frames one size smaller really gives them little advantage if any at all due to AA and the fact that they are already squishy enough. Even beyond that, Amarr dropsuits are the slowest so it isn't like the Minmatar dropsuits would really be getting such an overwhelming advantage. So what, they'll just be quicker to get to action where they'll die just as quickly. Amarr, however, will take forever to get there and forever to die as well. Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance 247	Posted - 2014.02.04 23:45:00 - [24] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Crimson Cerberes wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Minmatar are notorious speed tankers. Amarr are notorious slow asses who bricktank with armor. IMHO, all Minmatar dropsuits should be as fast as the Amarr dropsuits of one frame size smaller. It isn't like AA won't make the speed bonus balanced. So you think the minmatar heavy should be as fast as the amarr medium? Well shouldn't that also mean the same then, that amarr suits should have more HP than the larger sized minmatar suits? I mean fair is fair. Giving that amount of tank to the amarr dropsuits is just ridiculous. They are already the most significantly tanked dropsuits, though they are also slow. Minmatar, OTOH, having the same speed as Amarr frames one size smaller really gives them little advantage if any at all due to AA and the fact that they are already squishy enough. Even beyond that, Amarr dropsuits are the slowest so it isn't like the Minmatar dropsuits would really be getting such an overwhelming advantage. So what, they'll just be quicker to get to action where they'll die just as quickly. Amarr, however, will take forever to get there and forever to die as well. Giving that amount of speed to suits that are an ENTIRE class larger than the scouts is wrong too. Thats the point. Oh and LOL at HP advantage... yeah 30 ehp is worth 1 round or less to nearly every weapon in the game(i.e. worth WAY less than being able to run away, towards, find cover, jump, and strafe faster.)
buzzzzzzz killllllllll TRA1LBLAZERS 159	Posted - 2014.02.04 23:49:00 - [25] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Also, Amarr scout bonus is trash compared to other bonuses. Other suits receive the equivalent of a complex module or more from the suit bonuses, while the Amarr scout gets less than a basic cardiac reg. yes cuz every1 wants to fit myrofibril stimulants on their scouts or use knova knives with damage mods... some modules are better than other
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1331	Posted - 2014.02.04 23:50:00 - [26] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Minmatar are notorious speed tankers. Amarr are notorious slow asses who bricktank with armor. IMHO, all Minmatar dropsuits should be as fast as the Amarr dropsuits of one frame size smaller. It isn't like AA won't make the speed bonus balanced. By that logic amarr suits should have base HP value equal to the minmatar frame one size bigger. "Always fight dirty, the victor writes history" Eve toon: Drake Doe, professional hero tackler, full time pretzel boy
BAD FURRY SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 412	Posted - 2014.02.04 23:51:00 - [27] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: Why? dud its the race they are there GOOD AT RUNNING AWAY !!! Yes i am a Undead Hell Wolf ... nice to meat you!
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance 248	Posted - 2014.02.04 23:54:00 - [28] - Quote buzzzzzzz killllllllll wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Also, Amarr scout bonus is trash compared to other bonuses. Other suits receive the equivalent of a complex module or more from the suit bonuses, while the Amarr scout gets less than a basic cardiac reg. yes cuz every1 wants to fit myrofibril stimulants on their scouts or use knova knives with damage mods... some modules are better than other Not everyone wants to have a precision enhancer either, or a scanner booster, or whatever.... the suits are all a good bit different and that is good. The point being, every other scout gets AT LEAST 1 complex module for free through bonuses (like the complex code breaker for the minmatar) plus additional bonuses(like 3 complex dmg mods for nova knives and an additional basic code breaker for minmatar)... amarr get 2/3rds of 1 basic module for free from bonus and that is it.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 398	Posted - 2014.02.05 00:17:00 - [29] - Quote +1 There is a reason why in eve frigates are WAY faster than cruisers. They are lightly armored/shielded and would not stand a chance in a 1 on 1 fight with thier heavier bretherin. Also just because speed tanking/AA balance is not perfect now, doesn't mean that you design suits around broken mechanics. Also, I would be all for a suit like the vagabond (kind of a frigate hunter/killer) but that suit will need to use it's suit bonuses to get that fast, like the vagabond. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 432	Posted - 2014.02.05 00:40:00 - [30] - Quote Have stats/changes for the Assault in 1.8 been confirmed yet, or are you comparing the proposed stats for the scout against the current stats of the Assault?

Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1835	Posted - 2014.02.05 00:56:00 - [31] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Minmatar are notorious speed tankers. Amarr are notorious slow asses who bricktank with armor. IMHO, all Minmatar dropsuits should be as fast as the Amarr dropsuits of one frame size smaller. It isn't like AA won't make the speed bonus balanced. By that logic amarr suits should have base HP value equal to the minmatar frame one size bigger. Sure, but you will end up being slower still. Our loss of EHP is worse, than your loss of speed, so that has tonbe evened out. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1522	Posted - 2014.02.05 01:10:00 - [32] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Minmatar are notorious speed tankers. Amarr are notorious slow asses who bricktank with armor. IMHO, all Minmatar dropsuits should be as fast as the Amarr dropsuits of one frame size smaller. It isn't like AA won't make the speed bonus balanced. By that logic amarr suits should have base HP value equal to the minmatar frame one size bigger. Sure, but you will end up being slower still. Our loss of EHP is worse, than your loss of speed, so that has tonbe evened out. You know, they're really reacting like I said that Minmatar Medium Frames should be as fast as Minmatar Light Frames, I didn't. I simply put forth that Minmatar Frames (notorious for being the fastest of the races) should be the same speed as the Amarr Frames (notorious for being the slowest of the races) of one size catagory less. TBH, IDK why everyone is getting so butthurt over it, it isn't like it is a huge difference, you also need to take into account the difference in slot layouts. The Amarr Scout could easily be faster than the Minmatar Assault even if my proposal was implemented, they would just need to fit for it else be the same speed. Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
Vell0cet SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 895	Posted - 2014.02.05 01:40:00 - [33] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Minmatar are notorious speed tankers. Amarr are notorious slow asses who bricktank with armor. IMHO, all Minmatar dropsuits should be as fast as the Amarr dropsuits of one frame size smaller. It isn't like AA won't make the speed bonus balanced. By that logic amarr suits should have base HP value equal to the minmatar frame one size bigger. Sure, but you will end up being slower still. Our loss of EHP is worse, than your loss of speed, so that has tonbe evened out. You know, they're really reacting like I said that Minmatar Medium Frames should be as fast as Minmatar Light Frames, I didn't. I simply put forth that Minmatar Frames (notorious for being the fastest of the races) should be the same speed as the Amarr Frames (notorious for being the slowest of the races) of one size catagory less. TBH, IDK why everyone is getting so butthurt over it, it isn't like it is a huge difference, you also need to take into account the difference in slot layouts. The Amarr Scout could easily be faster than the Minmatar Assault even if my proposal was implemented, they would just need to fit for it else be the same speed. There are no modules that affect base movement speed. Being able to quickly strafe in/out of cover is incredibly valuable, especially for the survivability of the scout which is a hit/run play style. As CCP fixes TTK, strafing will be even more critical to winning fights. Best PvE idea ever!
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1332	Posted - 2014.02.05 01:40:00 - [34] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Minmatar are notorious speed tankers. Amarr are notorious slow asses who bricktank with armor. IMHO, all Minmatar dropsuits should be as fast as the Amarr dropsuits of one frame size smaller. It isn't like AA won't make the speed bonus balanced. By that logic amarr suits should have base HP value equal to the minmatar frame one size bigger. Sure, but you will end up being slower still. Our loss of EHP is worse, than your loss of speed, so that has tonbe evened out. You know, they're really reacting like I said that Minmatar Medium Frames should be as fast as Minmatar Light Frames, I didn't. I simply put forth that Minmatar Frames (notorious for being the fastest of the races) should be the same speed as the Amarr Frames (notorious for being the slowest of the races) of one size catagory less. TBH, IDK why everyone is getting so butthurt over it, it isn't like it is a huge difference, you also need to take into account the difference in slot layouts. The Amarr Scout could easily be faster than the Minmatar Assault even if my proposal was implemented, they would just need to fit for it else be the same speed. Like I said, if minmatar assaults are naturally faster than amarr scouts, then amarr scouts should have more HP than minmatar assaults naturally, and have to sacrifice to have more ehp. "Always fight dirty, the victor writes history" Eve toon: Drake Doe, professional hero tackler, full time pretzel boy
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1332	Posted - 2014.02.05 01:49:00 - [35] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Minmatar are notorious speed tankers. Amarr are notorious slow asses who bricktank with armor. IMHO, all Minmatar dropsuits should be as fast as the Amarr dropsuits of one frame size smaller. It isn't like AA won't make the speed bonus balanced. By that logic amarr suits should have base HP value equal to the minmatar frame one size bigger. Sure, but you will end up being slower still. Our loss of EHP is worse, than your loss of speed, so that has tonbe evened out. In it's current form, the mimatar assault will outrun and out tank the amarr scout, it should be one or the other as is with every other suit. "Always fight dirty, the victor writes history" Eve toon: Drake Doe, professional hero tackler, full time pretzel boy
Aqua-Regia 666	Posted - 2014.02.05 01:49:00 - [36] - Quote Amarr.... Amarr..... Amarr..... What the point even having anything Amarr anymore if CCP don't know what the hell Amarr suppose to be in a FPS. GòöGòºGòºGòºGòºGòºGòºGòùGöÉGòôBPO / BPC Collector Gòû Gòó *S00NGäó*GòPGò¼GòºGò¬GòñGòñGò¬GòñGòºGòºGòñGò¬GòñGòñGò¬GòñGòºGòºGòíHELLOGòPGûá GòÜGòñGòñGòñGòñGòñGòñGò¥Dust 514 GòPGò¢§GòÆGòúAmarrGòáGòòGòÆGòúRNDGòáGòò
negative49er Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 494	Posted - 2014.02.05 02:48:00 - [37] - Quote hmmm seem about right Dedicated Shotgun Scout
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 828	Posted - 2014.02.05 02:56:00 - [38] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Because, the codename of the Amarr Scout was..............-------________... Sumo =ƒÿé Then what are the Amarr heavies called? Leviathans?
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 828	Posted - 2014.02.05 02:57:00 - [39] - Quote Aqua-Regia wrote: Amarr.... Amarr..... Amarr..... What the point even having anything Amarr anymore if CCP don't know what the hell Amarr suppose to be in a FPS. Scrambler Rifle to kick ass, Scrambler Rifle to have a reliable sidearm, and Laser Rifle to have fun.
Nocturnal Soul Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 1834	Posted - 2014.02.05 02:57:00 - [40] - Quote Joel II X wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Because, the codename of the Amarr Scout was..............-------________... Sumo =ƒÿé Then what are the Amarr heavies called? Leviathans? Ha that's what I named my proto SCR fit. New born sAMARRi

knight guard fury The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 860	Posted - 2014.02.05 03:12:00 - [41] - Quote minmatar are supposed to be faster than everyone because their weak and they do hit'n'run tactics or something similar. they need this speed becasue its what they do and they arent incredibly strong so saying the minmatar need a nerf means you are just complete sh** and dont know what u r talking about. amarr scout doesnt have to be faster than a minmatar med. frame but it does have more stamina. maratari = speed amarr = stamina thats the big difference. reducing the minmatar speed is just rediculous and your asking ccp to nerf a suit that is already pretty much balanced and it does not need any type of nerf to it. right now it needs slight buffs though Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. 3031	Posted - 2014.02.05 03:15:00 - [42] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Why would you want a tanky scout? That defeats the purpose. Tell that to marauder/appia. Was about to say those folks run 4 complex plates sometimes You'd want a tanky scout because it would be an invisible heavy/medium frame Rifle Changes: DPS, range, and damage
D legendary hero Ultramarine Corp 1451	Posted - 2014.02.05 03:24:00 - [43] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: Why? because galente scout > minmatar assault higher ehp faster run speed longer run duration higher strafe speed can carry the same load out of weapons and equipment has faster shield recovery and shorter depletion Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 444	Posted - 2014.02.05 03:26:00 - [44] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Denak Kalamari wrote: Because Amarr suits are not designed for speed, but durability. Sure, your Minmatar assault can run faster than an Amarr scout, but the Amarr scout keeps on blazing by as the Minmatar Assault stopped to catch a breath five times already. Not to mention that these are just the base stats, scouts usually invest at least a few points into biotics, specifically kinetic catalyzers, which would improve their base speed and possibly make the Amarr scout a bit faster than a standard Minmatar assault It's a scout, it needs to be faster than assaults. Something something about the Amarr variant of the fastest ship class in EVE is still faster than the Minmatar version of the second fastest ship class in EVE. What is stupid is the Amarr are given this speed penalty because they get more base HP, something scouts don't really care about, and that the difference between base HP is relatively smaller when you compare the Amarr scout to other scouts yet it gets the same amount of speed penalty. DozersMouse XIII wrote: 4 lows vs 2 lows So does the Gallente scout, plus faster plus an inherent 3 armor repair per second. Gallente scout is just better. And then you have minmitar... Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Oswald Rehnquist 1214	Posted - 2014.02.05 04:03:00 - [45] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Why would you want a tanky scout? That defeats the purpose. Tell that to marauder/appia. Was about to say those folks run 4 complex plates sometimes You'd want a tanky scout because it would be an invisible heavy/medium frame I believe most of the top scouts play light assault with brick/damage tanking. Below 28 dB
Emperor1349 Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 15	Posted - 2014.02.05 13:43:00 - [46] - Quote Maybe amarr doesn't know **** about stealth, with their bright yellow or gold colored suits stacked with armor. This suit is not even out yet, it will probably work just fine just like the gallente scouts with armor that are out, save your crying until the suit is out. R.I.P Mag - SVER
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1529	Posted - 2014.02.05 18:24:00 - [47] - Quote Don't forget stamina and stamina regen. A leveled up Ammarr Scout with maybe 1 biotic will be able to make it from the deepest spawn to the enemy's 2nd-closest spawn in a single sprint, where he will no doubt meet one of the other scouts. The Minmatar assault, though marginally faster, will be sucking wind at this point, even if juiced up on green pills. How will that scout-on-scout encounter go? The Ammarian will be a tough fight for the other solo scouts. I don't think the Ammarian scout's speed is putting them at much of a disadvantage at all. For the Ammar Scouts it's distance, not speed. I support SP rollover.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 578	Posted - 2014.02.05 19:10:00 - [48] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Denak Kalamari wrote: Because Amarr suits are not designed for speed, but durability. Sure, your Minmatar assault can run faster than an Amarr scout, but the Amarr scout keeps on blazing by as the Minmatar Assault stopped to catch a breath five times already. Not to mention that these are just the base stats, scouts usually invest at least a few points into biotics, specifically kinetic catalyzers, which would improve their base speed and possibly make the Amarr scout a bit faster than a standard Minmatar assault It's a scout, it needs to be faster than assaults. Something something about the Amarr variant of the fastest ship class in EVE is still faster than the Minmatar version of the second fastest ship class in EVE. What is stupid is the Amarr are given this speed penalty because they get more base HP, something scouts don't really care about, and that the difference between base HP is relatively smaller when you compare the Amarr scout to other scouts yet it gets the same amount of speed penalty. DozersMouse XIII wrote: 4 lows vs 2 lows So does the Gallente scout, plus faster plus an inherent 3 armor repair per second. Gallente scout is just better. Contered by more base HP + more Stamina + more Stamina recovery. Amarr and gallente are quite close in their performance but both are somewhat outshined by the caldari (which is IMHO by far the overall best scout suit) and the minmatar scout. Both have overall way better dropsuit stats...
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 218	Posted - 2014.02.05 21:50:00 - [49] - Quote amarr have to much armor but very low shield and relied on having repair mod sure u can not put rep mod but alogis bro will never lose its time on you repairing a scout. Fatal Absolution bench proficiency lvl 5 why so serious zatara
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 218	Posted - 2014.02.05 21:52:00 - [50] - Quote amarr scout bonus suck Fatal Absolution bench proficiency lvl 5 why so serious zatara

lee corwood Knights Of Ender 429	Posted - 2014.02.05 22:03:00 - [51] - Quote Because rust + duct tape is lighter than actual decent armor Minmatar Logisis \| Heavy lover. Come get some badass Band-Aids from this chick
R F Gyro Clones 4u 1102	Posted - 2014.02.06 20:01:00 - [52] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: R F Gyro wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: I don't care what anyone thinks, its just bullshit that an assaults suit base speed is faster than any scouts it just defeats the purpose of being a scout and should be change ASAP If you want a fast scout, run a fast scout suit. If you want a stealthy scout, run a stealthy scout suit. If you want a tanky scout, run a tanky scout suit. Why would you want a tanky scout? That defeats the purpose. Also Gallente is better at tanking than Amarr because they get the natural 3 armor repair per second so don't have to use a low slot for reps and can use that saved spot to easily surpass the measly 30 HP advantage Amarr scouts start out with. Others have responded already pointing out that plenty of people run tanky scout setups. What is the role of the "scout" in Dust? It isn't limited to battlefield intelligence. Lets say you slip around behind the enemy to hack a null cannon, but it is guarded by a single enemy. A Caldari scout might sneak up under cloak and headshot him; a Minmatar scout might engage and run away if he doesn't get the kill; Gallente & Amarr might take him on in a straight brawl. All perfectly legit tactics. The difference between Gall/Amarr is the buffer/active tank choice. There's nothing forcing Amarr scouts to fit a repper btw. RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3342	Posted - 2014.02.06 20:53:00 - [53] - Quote The scout should be faster than another race's assault, yes. People keep talking like the Amarr only make slow things, and that's all they know how to do. The Amarr Interceptors (e.g. - Amarr fast ships) are among the fastest in EVE. Even if they weren't, all the interceptors (every race) are faster than the assault frigates. This "LOL, Amarr always SLOW, LOL" attitude is asinine. The races have differences, but that doesn't mean when the armor-focused race makes a speed-oriented suit, it's as slow as another's assault. The tanking focus of a race doesn't mean if they train spies they'd toss a suit of platemail on them for the lulz. At the point that you found your fastest suit was slower than an enemy assault, you'd go back to the drawing board. Yes, a scout can possibly have more combat-oriented roles, but to remove the speed edge limits the viable options. Saying "you can be the tanky scout", is like saying "you can be the thicker construction paper". The movement speed matters more than the stamina when it comes to strafing and up-close encounters, to gimp the race's fastest suit against assaults just means you've removed a large portion of the flexibility the other scouts can choose to have. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Ivan Avogadro Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 718	Posted - 2014.02.06 21:10:00 - [54] - Quote The Amarr Scout is easily the worst Scout suit by a wide margin right now. Just looking at the stats, it has no niche in the scout world, period. Cal and Gal scouts emphasize EWAR. Min Scout emphasizes Biotics. Amarr was supposed to emphasize Biotics, by the look of it, but failed. They can't be greased lightning with the highest EHP, but they also can't be EWAR themed assaults. They get to run farther, but much more slowly. Their racial ability is the only one of the 4 that doesn't actually beat the power of a STD mod (all other 3 get a racial power on par with a Complex mod). And here is a fun trick: take a build with an Amarr scout. I can almost guarantee you it will fit the Gal scout easier. Gal has more PG, and scouts tend to not be CPU constrained. So you can make an Amarr "battle scout" and turn it into a faster, stealthier Gal scout that ALSO has latent armor repair. The only thing the Amarr Scout actually gets is ~40 EHP (depending on your skills). Run either a battle themed Gal Scout, or a paper thin Min Assault. Both will outperform the Amarr Scout.
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1858	Posted - 2014.02.06 21:14:00 - [55] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: The scout should be faster than another race's assault, yes. People keep talking like the Amarr only make slow things, and that's all they know how to do. The Amarr Interceptors (e.g. - Amarr fast ships) are among the fastest in EVE. Even if they weren't, all the interceptors (every race) are faster than the assault frigates. This "LOL, Amarr always SLOW, LOL" attitude is asinine. The races have differences, but that doesn't mean when the armor-focused race makes a speed-oriented suit, it's as slow as another's assault. The tanking focus of a race doesn't mean if they train spies they'd toss a suit of platemail on them for the lulz. At the point that you found your fastest suit was slower than an enemy assault, you'd go back to the drawing board. Yes, a scout can possibly have more combat-oriented roles, but to remove the speed edge limits the viable options. Saying "you can be the tanky scout", is like saying "you can be the thicker construction paper". The movement speed matters more than the stamina when it comes to strafing and up-close encounters, to gimp the race's fastest suit against assaults just means you've removed a large portion of the flexibility the other scouts can choose to have. Saying the Amarr will have some edge in a straight-up brawl ignores the fact that at base, the Minmatar assault will have both more hp AND more speed. Maybe the reason the Minmatar Assault Suit is faster than the Amarr Scout is because Minmatar are fast by design. The amarrain interceptors are fast, by comparison to slow ships, n0but against the Minamtar it's no contest. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance 256	Posted - 2014.02.06 21:24:00 - [56] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: The scout should be faster than another race's assault, yes. People keep talking like the Amarr only make slow things, and that's all they know how to do. The Amarr Interceptors (e.g. - Amarr fast ships) are among the fastest in EVE. Even if they weren't, all the interceptors (every race) are faster than the assault frigates. This "LOL, Amarr always SLOW, LOL" attitude is asinine. The races have differences, but that doesn't mean when the armor-focused race makes a speed-oriented suit, it's as slow as another's assault. The tanking focus of a race doesn't mean if they train spies they'd toss a suit of platemail on them for the lulz. At the point that you found your fastest suit was slower than an enemy assault, you'd go back to the drawing board. Yes, a scout can possibly have more combat-oriented roles, but to remove the speed edge limits the viable options. Saying "you can be the tanky scout", is like saying "you can be the thicker construction paper". The movement speed matters more than the stamina when it comes to strafing and up-close encounters, to gimp the race's fastest suit against assaults just means you've removed a large portion of the flexibility the other scouts can choose to have. Saying the Amarr will have some edge in a straight-up brawl ignores the fact that at base, the Minmatar assault will have both more hp AND more speed. Maybe the reason the Minmatar Assault Suit is faster than the Amarr Scout is because Minmatar are fast by design. The amarrain interceptors are fast, by comparison to slow ships, n0but against the Minamtar it's no contest. Now my information may be just a little out of date, but I thought that the crusader a good bit faster than all but one of the minmatar frigates, and that it compares nicely to it. In other words, I call B.S. on your statement. Amarr are supposed to be slow for their class. Light suits are supposed to be a good bit faster than medium suits. Also refute these two points: 1) anything the amarr suit tries to do, the gallente can do better and 2) at base, the minmatar assault suit is both faster and has more HP than the amarr scout.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2134	Posted - 2014.02.06 21:29:00 - [57] - Quote With the massive difference in stamina, running any further than 100m will be quicker with the Amarr scout than the minnie assault. That's what the Amarr scout will be good at. Thread answered. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1860	Posted - 2014.02.06 21:31:00 - [58] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: The scout should be faster than another race's assault, yes. People keep talking like the Amarr only make slow things, and that's all they know how to do. The Amarr Interceptors (e.g. - Amarr fast ships) are among the fastest in EVE. Even if they weren't, all the interceptors (every race) are faster than the assault frigates. This "LOL, Amarr always SLOW, LOL" attitude is asinine. The races have differences, but that doesn't mean when the armor-focused race makes a speed-oriented suit, it's as slow as another's assault. The tanking focus of a race doesn't mean if they train spies they'd toss a suit of platemail on them for the lulz. At the point that you found your fastest suit was slower than an enemy assault, you'd go back to the drawing board. Yes, a scout can possibly have more combat-oriented roles, but to remove the speed edge limits the viable options. Saying "you can be the tanky scout", is like saying "you can be the thicker construction paper". The movement speed matters more than the stamina when it comes to strafing and up-close encounters, to gimp the race's fastest suit against assaults just means you've removed a large portion of the flexibility the other scouts can choose to have. Saying the Amarr will have some edge in a straight-up brawl ignores the fact that at base, the Minmatar assault will have both more hp AND more speed. Maybe the reason the Minmatar Assault Suit is faster than the Amarr Scout is because Minmatar are fast by design. The amarrain interceptors are fast, by comparison to slow ships, n0but against the Minamtar it's no contest. Now my information may be just a little out of date, but I thought that the crusader a good bit faster than all but one of the minmatar frigates, and that it compares nicely to it. In other words, I call B.S. on your statement. Amarr are supposed to be slow for their class. Light suits are supposed to be a good bit faster than medium suits. Also refute these two points: 1) anything the amarr suit tries to do, the gallente can do better and 2) at base, the minmatar assault suit is both faster and has more HP than the amarr scout. Dude you would call bll on anything, there is nothing wrong with the Amarr Suit, it has more health and is slower than it's comparable suits, just like all of them. The reason the scout ends up slower than the Minie is because the difference in speed between scout and assault as classes is neligible, you said it your self while the Amarr interceptor is by no means a slow ship its still slower than its contenders. Instead of Complaining that the suit YOU want to use is bust, use it as evidence that scouts in general are too slow. Besides Im liking the look of the speed on the Minnie Heavy, I bet with a Complex Kincat it sprinting faster than your amarr Tanks 514* I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance 257	Posted - 2014.02.06 21:41:00 - [59] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Crimson Cerberes wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: The scout should be faster than another race's assault, yes. People keep talking like the Amarr only make slow things, and that's all they know how to do. The Amarr Interceptors (e.g. - Amarr fast ships) are among the fastest in EVE. Even if they weren't, all the interceptors (every race) are faster than the assault frigates. This "LOL, Amarr always SLOW, LOL" attitude is asinine. The races have differences, but that doesn't mean when the armor-focused race makes a speed-oriented suit, it's as slow as another's assault. The tanking focus of a race doesn't mean if they train spies they'd toss a suit of platemail on them for the lulz. At the point that you found your fastest suit was slower than an enemy assault, you'd go back to the drawing board. Yes, a scout can possibly have more combat-oriented roles, but to remove the speed edge limits the viable options. Saying "you can be the tanky scout", is like saying "you can be the thicker construction paper". The movement speed matters more than the stamina when it comes to strafing and up-close encounters, to gimp the race's fastest suit against assaults just means you've removed a large portion of the flexibility the other scouts can choose to have. Saying the Amarr will have some edge in a straight-up brawl ignores the fact that at base, the Minmatar assault will have both more hp AND more speed. Maybe the reason the Minmatar Assault Suit is faster than the Amarr Scout is because Minmatar are fast by design. The amarrain interceptors are fast, by comparison to slow ships, n0but against the Minamtar it's no contest. Now my information may be just a little out of date, but I thought that the crusader a good bit faster than all but one of the minmatar frigates, and that it compares nicely to it. In other words, I call B.S. on your statement. Amarr are supposed to be slow for their class. Light suits are supposed to be a good bit faster than medium suits. Also refute these two points: 1) anything the amarr suit tries to do, the gallente can do better and 2) at base, the minmatar assault suit is both faster and has more HP than the amarr scout. Dude you would call b*ll on anything, there is nothing wrong with the Amarr Suit, it has more health and is slower than it's comparable suits, just like all of them. The reason the scout ends up slower than the Minie is because the difference in speed between scout and assault as classes is neligible, you said it your self while the Amarr interceptor is by no means a slow ship its still slower than its contenders. Instead of Complaining that the suit YOU want to use is bust, use it as evidence that scouts in general are too slow. Besides Im liking the look of the speed on the Minnie Heavy, I bet with a Complex Kincat it sprinting faster than your amarr No you mis-read. Let me rephrase, in eve there is only ONE racial frigate that is faster than the crusader (amarr's fastest frigate) and that is the Claw. i.e, it is not slower than it's contenders. Amarr frigates are as a group the second fastest in-game after matari. Yes, light suits as a group need to have a much larger gap in speed compared to mediums, but at the VERY LEAST, the amarr light suits need to be faster than ANY MEDIUM SUIT. Also, I have no issues with the matari heavy suits, at base they are not faster than any amarr medium suit. So, CCP have stated that they think making scouts any faster than they are now is game-breaking. This means that CCP would have to reduce the speed of the medium drop suits as a whole. Sounds like alot of work. All I am asking for is a bit more base speed for the amarr scout (like 0.1 m/sec faster, which would only make it 0.05 m/sec faster than the matari assault)
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 461	Posted - 2014.02.06 21:42:00 - [60] - Quote the ammarr scout does not need more speed, it needs like 50-60 more base hp and the best fittings of any scout, better than gallente. The minmitar assault is good where it is at, the only thing that needs to change is shield extenders which have way to high fitting requirements to be used effectively. Gallente scout is by far the best of any scout, surpassing minmitar in speed tanking potential, ehp potential, repair potential, passive scan potential and everything else. The only thing gallente does worse than minmitar and amarr is stamina. This is how it should work Minmitar scout=fastest suit, great speed tanker, biotically amped freak of an assassin, without enough hp to survive 2 rail rifle shots Amarr scout=slowest scout, but fastest in the long run, basically a light amarr assault that can speed tank as well, best uplink runner, medium frame like hp with light frame speed and dampening To allow for this, shield extenders need less fitting requirements and better regen on minmitar and caldari suits, as well as more hp on STD and ADV extenders, kincats need a larger stacking penalty, especially after two, but affect strafe speed by one half of what they do to sprint speed as well, and minmitar scouts need a 5 ish % buff to sprint and movement speed. Ammarr scouts, on the other hand, need their bonus tuned up to at least 10% per level, and gain +15-20 shield, and +35-40 armor at base, as well as gaining 10-15% more cpu and pg. Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!

KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4404	Posted - 2014.02.06 21:50:00 - [61] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: Why? Because its not enough we get the most crappy and useless bonus there ever was, but we also have to be slower than an Assault. like seriously. the amarr scout will look cool and i will get it to proto, BUT ONLY to walk around in the warbarge. NOT ONLY The other 3 scout suits surpass it by a landslide in Bonuses worth lots of CPU+PG in modules, but are faster too. If you want more HP on a scout, run a Mk.0 or Ck.0 with Profile dampeners and kin cats and thats that.... AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG \| YOU EITHER LOVE BACON OR YOU ARE WRONG
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 462	Posted - 2014.02.06 21:51:00 - [62] - Quote read my previous post and tell me what you think, Checkmate Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Ivan Avogadro Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 719	Posted - 2014.02.06 21:57:00 - [63] - Quote @Monkey MAC: I completely agree with you that there is no problem with the fastest assault being faster than the slowest scout. A little overlap is fine. But the fast assault also gets more EHP. So what is the Amarr Scout's role if they are simultaneously slower and weaker? You talk about how the Scout is supposed to be the slowest but strongest of it's class, but Scouts don't exist in a vacuum on the battlefield. If you want something stronger and slower, you should pick the Min Assault. There is no reason to choose the Amarr Scout. It needs to have a reason to exist. Either push the speed faster than the Min Assault OR give it more EHP. If Amarr Scouts really are supposed to be brick tanks, then they better have a reason for being that slow. If all the Min suits are going to be a full frame size faster than the Amarr, they need to be a full frame size weaker too.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1537	Posted - 2014.02.06 21:57:00 - [64] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: the ammarr scout does not need more speed, it needs like 50-60 more base hp and the best fittings of any scout, better than gallente. The minmitar assault is good where it is at, the only thing that needs to change is shield extenders which have way to high fitting requirements to be used effectively. Gallente scout is by far the best of any scout, surpassing minmitar in speed tanking potential, ehp potential, repair potential, passive scan potential and everything else. The only thing gallente does worse than minmitar and amarr is stamina. This is how it should work Minmitar scout=fastest suit, great speed tanker, biotically amped freak of an assassin, without enough hp to survive 2 rail rifle shots Amarr scout=slowest scout, but fastest in the long run, basically a light amarr assault that can speed tank as well, best uplink runner, medium frame like hp with light frame speed and dampening To allow for this, shield extenders need less fitting requirements and better regen on minmitar and caldari suits, as well as more hp on STD and ADV extenders, kincats need a larger stacking penalty, especially after two, but affect strafe speed by one half of what they do to sprint speed as well, and minmitar scouts need a 5 ish % buff to sprint and movement speed. Ammarr scouts, on the other hand, need their bonus tuned up to at least 10% per level, and gain +15-20 shield, and +35-40 armor at base, as well as gaining 10-15% more cpu and pg. +1. Nicely balanced. Good racial themeing. Love the approach to kincats with 1/2 bonus to strafe. I support SP rollover.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 465	Posted - 2014.02.06 22:01:00 - [65] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: the ammarr scout does not need more speed, it needs like 50-60 more base hp and the best fittings of any scout, better than gallente. The minmitar assault is good where it is at, the only thing that needs to change is shield extenders which have way to high fitting requirements to be used effectively. Gallente scout is by far the best of any scout, surpassing minmitar in speed tanking potential, ehp potential, repair potential, passive scan potential and everything else. The only thing gallente does worse than minmitar and amarr is stamina. This is how it should work Minmitar scout=fastest suit, great speed tanker, biotically amped freak of an assassin, without enough hp to survive 2 rail rifle shots Amarr scout=slowest scout, but fastest in the long run, basically a light amarr assault that can speed tank as well, best uplink runner, medium frame like hp with light frame speed and dampening To allow for this, shield extenders need less fitting requirements and better regen on minmitar and caldari suits, as well as more hp on STD and ADV extenders, kincats need a larger stacking penalty, especially after two, but affect strafe speed by one half of what they do to sprint speed as well, and minmitar scouts need a 5 ish % buff to sprint and movement speed. Ammarr scouts, on the other hand, need their bonus tuned up to at least 10% per level, and gain +15-20 shield, and +35-40 armor at base, as well as gaining 10-15% more cpu and pg. +1. Nicely balanced. Good racial themeing. Love the approach to kincats with 1/2 bonus to strafe. TY :) i think it gives the minmitar a role for speed tanking and assassination at CQC, and amarr a role as the front running pointman, so to speak Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 465	Posted - 2014.02.06 22:02:00 - [66] - Quote Ivan Avogadro wrote: @Monkey MAC: I completely agree with you that there is no problem with the fastest assault being faster than the slowest scout. A little overlap is fine. But the fast assault also gets more EHP. So what is the Amarr Scout's role if they are simultaneously slower and weaker? You talk about how the Scout is supposed to be the slowest but strongest of it's class, but Scouts don't exist in a vacuum on the battlefield. If you want something stronger and slower, you should pick the Min Assault. There is no reason to choose the Amarr Scout. It needs to have a reason to exist. Either push the speed faster than the Min Assault OR give it more EHP. If Amarr Scouts really are supposed to be brick tanks, then they better have a reason for being that slow. If all the Min suits are going to be a full frame size faster than the Amarr, they need to be a full frame size weaker too. You are forgetting dampening, but i agree that amarr scouts need med frame EHP Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3344	Posted - 2014.02.06 22:05:00 - [67] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: the ammarr scout does not need more speed, it needs like 50-60 more base hp and the best fittings of any scout, better than gallente. The minmitar assault is good where it is at, the only thing that needs to change is shield extenders which have way to high fitting requirements to be used effectively. Gallente scout is by far the best of any scout, surpassing minmitar in speed tanking potential, ehp potential, repair potential, passive scan potential and everything else. The only thing gallente does worse than minmitar and amarr is stamina. This is how it should work Minmitar scout=fastest suit, great speed tanker, biotically amped freak of an assassin, without enough hp to survive 2 rail rifle shots Amarr scout=slowest scout, but fastest in the long run, basically a light amarr assault that can speed tank as well, best uplink runner, medium frame like hp with light frame speed and dampening To allow for this, shield extenders need less fitting requirements and better regen on minmitar and caldari suits, as well as more hp on STD and ADV extenders, kincats need a larger stacking penalty, especially after two, but affect strafe speed by one half of what they do to sprint speed as well, and minmitar scouts need a 5 ish % buff to sprint and movement speed. Ammarr scouts, on the other hand, need their bonus tuned up to at least 10% per level, and gain +15-20 shield, and +35-40 armor at base, as well as gaining 10-15% more cpu and pg. No. Relegating Amarr to having an "assault-scout" is a bad idea. It's questionable if we even needed an "assault" logi. One thing is for certain, we don't need an assault-everything, because that's just pants-on-head-retahded. At some point your role-specific suits need to be best at securing their role and not half-assing a different role that the race already has filled. The up-link runner is already questionable since they seem to want to give a bunch of link bonuses to the slowest logi. They need a scout suit capable of being faster than all the assaults, at minimum. If you beef them up to assault hp, you've just introduced a different kind of balance issue, and the Amarr still wouldn't have a scout. Even if the Amarr is the "slowest" scout, for whatever reason. It should still be faster than any assault. Buffing the minmatar speed won't happen either, because apparently there are engine problems if the scouts are any faster than they are right now. I imagine kin-cats don't impact movement speed for similar reasons, but it could just be a hard balance cap sort of thing. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Ivan Avogadro Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 721	Posted - 2014.02.06 22:19:00 - [68] - Quote Zeylon, but what role is left for the Amarr Scout now? Cal - range (EWAR) and passive precision (EWAR) Gal - range (EWAR) and dampening (EWAR) Min - nova knives (melee, Biotics-ish), speed (Biotics), and hacking Am - stamina and stamina regen (Biotics) Am needs something in the scout wheelhouse, but everything in Biotics and EWAR is taken. Unless you give them a straight melee bonus and turn them punch suits. You could give them the same range bonus that Cal and Gal get, leave the Min scout out in the cold as the least EWAR-y scout, but that dilutes down the war that the two nemeses have going. Min gets a bonus to fitting a weapon (offense). You could give them a bonus to fitting plates (defense, opposite their nemesis) but that would be too close to tanking them into assaults. The uplink runner idea is the only scouty one left, if they can carry extra uplinks or hives per equip slot. Bump up their stamina too.
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4404	Posted - 2014.02.06 22:22:00 - [69] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: read my previous post and tell me what you think, Checkmate I feel, its all good (Specially the strafe speed increase) but, what will make a suit like amarr scout worth is a BONUS CHANGE. 25% Stamina (not even MLT cardiac regulator) worth in bonus is just sad. I really cant find a single reason i should use the amarr scout over the gallente one. AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG \| YOU EITHER LOVE BACON OR YOU ARE WRONG
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 466	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:15:00 - [70] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: read my previous post and tell me what you think, Checkmate I feel, its all good (Specially the strafe speed increase) but, what will make a suit like amarr scout worth is a BONUS CHANGE. 25% Stamina (not even MLT cardiac regulator) worth in bonus is just sad. I really cant find a single reason i should use the amarr scout over the gallente one. What would you suggest as bonuses? Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!

KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4418	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:28:00 - [71] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: read my previous post and tell me what you think, Checkmate I feel, its all good (Specially the strafe speed increase) but, what will make a suit like amarr scout worth is a BONUS CHANGE. 25% Stamina (not even MLT cardiac regulator) worth in bonus is just sad. I really cant find a single reason i should use the amarr scout over the gallente one. What would you suggest as bonuses? Well the one the Amarr Scout had previously BEFORE this wretched community CRIED like it always CRIES: GÖª 5% Cloak Cool-down reduction per level (up to 25%) Or other Bonuses that help the Amarr Scout be the Offensive light frame is meant to be: GÖª If the Assault Amarr looses its current bonus then the Scout could really use it: 5% Heat buildup reduction per level to laser weaponry GÖª a Stamina Increase (Buffed) plus something else, Example: +10% Max Stamina and Stamina regen AND= +15% Melee damage per level or +5% Damage to SCR PISTOLS or +1 HP Per sec Armor rep Or whatever! I mean the Gallente scout has the Best Dampening, Great Radar range, is FASTER and has similar,tanking capabilities. Gallente has cx Profile dampener and one Basic Range amplifier worth in Modules The amarr one has (LESS THAN) a MLT Cardiac regulator. WTH. AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 466	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:36:00 - [72] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: read my previous post and tell me what you think, Checkmate I feel, its all good (Specially the strafe speed increase) but, what will make a suit like amarr scout worth is a BONUS CHANGE. 25% Stamina (not even MLT cardiac regulator) worth in bonus is just sad. I really cant find a single reason i should use the amarr scout over the gallente one. What would you suggest as bonuses? Well the one the Amarr Scout had previously BEFORE this wretched community CRIED like it always CRIES: GÖª 5% Cloak Cool-down reduction per level (up to 25%) Or other Bonuses that help the Amarr Scout be the Offensive light frame is meant to be: GÖª If the Assault Amarr looses its current bonus then the Scout could really use it: 5% Heat buildup reduction per level to laser weaponry GÖª a Stamina Increase (Buffed) plus something else, Example: +10% Max Stamina and Stamina regen AND= +15% Melee damage per level or +5% Damage to SCR PISTOLS or +1 HP Per sec Armor rep Or whatever! I mean the Gallente scout has the Best Dampening, Great Radar range, is FASTER and has similar,tanking capabilities. Gallente has cx Profile dampener and one Basic Range amplifier worth in Modules The amarr one has (LESS THAN) a MLT Cardiac regulator. WTH. comparing any amarr or minmitar suit to a gallente suit is not done, all gallente suits are better in every way. the 5% heatup reduction was removed from the assault because i beleive CCP found it to be overpowered that the strongest weapon in the game WITH A MODDED CONTROLLER could be used as such with no real penalties. The combat rifle now kinda defeats my point, but i beleive balance will come for that weapon...one day... 10% at least to stamina is needed, but for the other bonuses- Melee damage-too similar to minmitar scout, though it is a balanced idea damage to scrambler pistols would be absolutely overpowered. The reason minmitar gets a bonus to knives is because knives are SO situational that it is balanced, and in fact, even underpowered. Giving a similar bonus to a ranged weapon which is arguably the best sidearm in the game, would be simply too powerful, though +1 clip size would be a decent idea instead armor per second isnt a bad idea, i actually like it, and think it would be balanced, however it doesnt fit the racial mantra of the brick tanked amarr Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
VALCORE72 NECROM0NGERS The CORVOS 36	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:49:00 - [73] - Quote if all goes right on 1.8 ill have the minny heavy sprinten 8 lol
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 468	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:51:00 - [74] - Quote the commando is going to be a force to be reckoned with...mass driver and combat rifle, anyone? sprint speed faster than a scout's base movement, wielding weapons of destruction with a bonus to damage gives you a deadly combo Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4419	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:55:00 - [75] - Quote @ Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p= ''comparing any amarr or minmitar suit to a gallente suit is not done, all gallente suits are better in every way. '' GÖª Actually , in the case of Minmatar scout, its not true.. The Min scout is Equal (or BETTER if NK is your main weapon) than the GAl : Faster suit in the field + 3cx damage mods AND 1 cx Codebreaker worth in BONUSES, most balanced slot loadout with 3 & 3. ''the 5% heatup reduction was removed from the assault because i beleive CCP found it to be overpowered that the strongest weapon in the game WITH A MODDED CONTROLLER could be used as such with no real penalties. The combat rifle now kinda defeats my point, but i beleive balance will come for that weapon...one day...'' GÖª Its a shame a good bonus DS3 players could use to improve their weapon experience is being removed because SKILL LESS NOOBS cant play without modded controllers. Of Course instead of CCP taking action against Modded controllers they remove the bonus, Good move.... NOT. ''damage to scrambler pistols would be absolutely overpowered. The reason minmitar gets a bonus to knives is because knives are SO situational that it is balanced, and in fact, even underpowered. Giving a similar bonus to a ranged weapon which is arguably the best sidearm in the game, would be simply too powerful, though +1 clip size would be a decent idea instead'' GÖª I actually think +1 bullet to the clip per level is more OP XD , ok, how about +2% Damage to SCR PISTOLS per level sound (per level)? Its only 1cx Damage mod worth in bonus. ''armor per second isnt a bad idea, i actually like it, and think it would be balanced, however it doesnt fit the racial mantra of the brick tanked amarr'' GÖª Actually , on the contrary. Armor rep is ALWAYS equal to MORE ARMOR. Having 1 cx armor rep worth of bonus lets amarr use another low slot For ARMOR PLATES. AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4419	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:56:00 - [76] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: the commando is going to be a force to be reckoned with...mass driver and combat rifle, anyone? sprint speed faster than a scout's base movement, wielding weapons of destruction with a bonus to damage gives you a deadly combo Forgot reload speed. + GÖª Gallente PCannon (1 sec reload) and Duvolle combo GÖª Amarr SCR + LASER combos GÖª CAldari RR + ARR combo GÖª Minmatar CR + SWARM LAUNCHER combo... Etc... AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
MINA Longstrike 2Shitz 1Giggle 241	Posted - 2014.02.07 03:02:00 - [77] - Quote The Minmatar design based on their passions, which are tempestuous, vibrant, bright... and simple and earthly. In their dropsuits, ships and weapons this is ultimately representative of explosive power - short moments of intense rage and extreme ultraviolence. The Amarr design based on their spiritualism, which is all-encompassing, contemplative, glorious... and oppressive and cruelly terrifying. In their dropsuits, weapons and ships this comes out in enduring power - the ability to run further, the ability to stand when others would long since be broken and in weapons that last forever in the hands of a golden horde that will not bend, break, that will not yield or give quarter, weapons of god sent as the vanguard of the reclaiming.
Oswald Rehnquist 1219	Posted - 2014.02.07 03:03:00 - [78] - Quote I personally would make good use of the amarr scout if it had this 10%+ per level to stamina 1%+ per level to cpu/pg Essentially use the amarr mantra of better fittings as a racial. The higher than average stamina plus the stamina boost equals a higher mod, and a cpu/pg boost and an already high (for a scout) suit equals more than what the bonus suggests. It would also have combat and backyard running potential. Below 28 dB
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 468	Posted - 2014.02.07 03:07:00 - [79] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: @ Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p= ''comparing any amarr or minmitar suit to a gallente suit is not done, all gallente suits are better in every way. '' GÖª Actually , in the case of Minmatar scout, its not true.. The Min scout is Equal (or BETTER if NK is your main weapon) than the GAl : Faster suit in the field + 3cx damage mods AND 1 cx Codebreaker worth in BONUSES, most balanced slot loadout with 3 & 3. ''the 5% heatup reduction was removed from the assault because i beleive CCP found it to be overpowered that the strongest weapon in the game WITH A MODDED CONTROLLER could be used as such with no real penalties. The combat rifle now kinda defeats my point, but i beleive balance will come for that weapon...one day...'' GÖª Its a shame a good bonus DS3 players could use to improve their weapon experience is being removed because SKILL LESS NOOBS cant play without modded controllers. Of Course instead of CCP taking action against Modded controllers they remove the bonus, Good move.... NOT. ''damage to scrambler pistols would be absolutely overpowered. The reason minmitar gets a bonus to knives is because knives are SO situational that it is balanced, and in fact, even underpowered. Giving a similar bonus to a ranged weapon which is arguably the best sidearm in the game, would be simply too powerful, though +1 clip size would be a decent idea instead'' GÖª I actually think +1 bullet to the clip per level is more OP XD , ok, how about +2% Damage to SCR PISTOLS per level sound (per level)? Its only 1cx Damage mod worth in bonus. ''armor per second isnt a bad idea, i actually like it, and think it would be balanced, however it doesnt fit the racial mantra of the brick tanked amarr'' GÖª Actually , on the contrary. Armor rep is ALWAYS equal to MORE ARMOR. Having 1 cx armor rep worth of bonus lets amarr use another low slot For ARMOR PLATES. Gal is better in every way, but thats also due to armor/shield imbalance, so if that gets fixed i will agree. The main reason gallente is so good is because they can fit 3x kincats and a damage and a shield extender and a plate, requiring no slot for a profile dampener and still have room for a cloak and weapons. Minmitar, on the other hand, cant fit 3x kincats and 3x shields to become faster than gallente, it takes too much pg, and would only be able to fit a flaylock on afterwards (pg cost of modules=45+33=78, most minmitar can have with maxed skills is 80) so instead, we rely on a profile dampener. Cool, now ere slower than the gal scout, and equally dampened, with 15 pg to spare. whatever though, we can still fit nova knives and another weapon, and at least a basic cloak right? NOPE. nova knives cost 8 pg at proto (only useful form, and btw they dont having a fitting optimization skill etither) and a basic cloak costs 9 at maxed out skills. Now lets look at gallente-1 ADV plate+base hp with bonuses+complex shield extender= more hp than a minmitar scout with maxed skillls and 3x shield extenders, plus gallente get a 3/s armor rep. Now they can fit 3x kincats, and are faster than minmitar that was theory crafted above, and a damage mod to make them do more damage. now lets look at their pg usage- 3x15+11+5+9=70 pg. with maxed out skills, a g-scout is at over 90 pg, giving them 20 pg remaining, allowing for a cloak, and adv specialist shotgun, a basic SMG, and a stable active scanner. Their cpu is a little tight, but it all fits. Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 468	Posted - 2014.02.07 03:11:00 - [80] - Quote my suggestion for the scrambler rifle is in my sig, and i know you agree with that, and i think its balanced too, so we agree 2% damage actually sounds balanced, id be fine with that What i meant by tanking is that ammarr is traditionally high base HP with low regenerative properties, kinda like the opposite of a minmitar is supposed to be, so what i meant is that it goes against racial mantra somewhat, however, i agree that its a very balanced idea Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!

Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 468	Posted - 2014.02.07 03:12:00 - [81] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: the commando is going to be a force to be reckoned with...mass driver and combat rifle, anyone? sprint speed faster than a scout's base movement, wielding weapons of destruction with a bonus to damage gives you a deadly combo Forgot reload speed. + GÖª Gallente PCannon (1 sec reload) and Duvolle combo GÖª Amarr SCR + LASER combos GÖª CAldari RR + ARR combo GÖª Minmatar CR + SWARM LAUNCHER combo... Etc... the only weakness of the combat rifle is having to reload, the commando bonus negates that Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4422	Posted - 2014.02.07 03:13:00 - [82] - Quote @ Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Gal is better in every way, but thats also due to armor/shield imbalance, so if that gets fixed i will agree. The main reason gallente is so good is because they can fit 3x kincats and a damage and a shield extender and a plate, requiring no slot for a profile dampener and still have room for a cloak and weapons. Minmitar, on the other hand, cant fit 3x kincats and 3x shields to become faster than gallente, it takes too much pg, and would only be able to fit a flaylock on afterwards (pg cost of modules=45+33=78, most minmitar can have with maxed skills is 80) so instead, we rely on a profile dampener. ''Gal is better in every way'' GÖª Ok this is not entirely true, because it REALLY DEPENDS on your play style!! NO OTHER SUIT IN THE GAME can provide 6 Complex damage mods worth in knife damage ( 3 high slots + bonus), PLUS THE innate Codebreaker makes the Min scout the elite hacker. Again, you are just thinking of the Scout as ASSAULTS use it, not as scouts use it. Real scouts DONT TANK. '' Cool, now ere slower than the gal scout, and equally dampened, with 15 pg to spare. whatever though, we can still fit nova knives and another weapon, and at least a basic cloak right? NOPE. nova knives cost 8 pg at proto (only useful form, and btw they dont having a fitting optimization skill etither) and a basic cloak costs 9 at maxed out skills. Now lets look at gallente-1 ADV plate+base hp with bonuses+complex shield extender= more hp than a minmitar scout with maxed skillls and 3x shield extenders, plus gallente get a 3/s armor rep. Now they can fit 3x kincats, and are faster than minmitar that was theory crafted above, and a damage mod to make them do more damage. now lets look at their pg usage- 3x15+11+5+9=70 pg. with maxed out skills, a g-scout is at over 90 pg, giving them 20 pg remaining, allowing for a cloak, and adv specialist shotgun, a basic SMG, and a stable active scanner. Their cpu is a little tight, but it all fits'' Well yeah, Min are supposed to have trouble fitting stuff. While amarr has usually less slots but higher CPU-PG values. STILL, Minmatar will be better if your purpose is NK use or Infiltration hacking. The Gal is just a better BATTLE suit... AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
Sir Snugglz Red Star. EoN. 346	Posted - 2014.02.07 03:15:00 - [83] - Quote Them slaves yo!!! How do you think they cross the border and not get caught? They need to run like their life depends on it.... Literally. Can't let them scouts catch up and throw them back into the Slave camps Luck is just one of my skills
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 468	Posted - 2014.02.07 03:27:00 - [84] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: @ Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Gal is better in every way, but thats also due to armor/shield imbalance, so if that gets fixed i will agree. The main reason gallente is so good is because they can fit 3x kincats and a damage and a shield extender and a plate, requiring no slot for a profile dampener and still have room for a cloak and weapons. Minmitar, on the other hand, cant fit 3x kincats and 3x shields to become faster than gallente, it takes too much pg, and would only be able to fit a flaylock on afterwards (pg cost of modules=45+33=78, most minmitar can have with maxed skills is 80) so instead, we rely on a profile dampener. ''Gal is better in every way'' GÖª Ok this is not entirely true, because it REALLY DEPENDS on your play style!! NO OTHER SUIT IN THE GAME can provide 6 Complex damage mods worth in knife damage ( 3 high slots + bonus), PLUS THE innate Codebreaker makes the Min scout the elite hacker. Again, you are just thinking of the Scout as ASSAULTS use it, not as scouts use it. Real scouts DONT TANK. '' Cool, now ere slower than the gal scout, and equally dampened, with 15 pg to spare. whatever though, we can still fit nova knives and another weapon, and at least a basic cloak right? NOPE. nova knives cost 8 pg at proto (only useful form, and btw they dont having a fitting optimization skill etither) and a basic cloak costs 9 at maxed out skills. Now lets look at gallente-1 ADV plate+base hp with bonuses+complex shield extender= more hp than a minmitar scout with maxed skillls and 3x shield extenders, plus gallente get a 3/s armor rep. Now they can fit 3x kincats, and are faster than minmitar that was theory crafted above, and a damage mod to make them do more damage. now lets look at their pg usage- 3x15+11+5+9=70 pg. with maxed out skills, a g-scout is at over 90 pg, giving them 20 pg remaining, allowing for a cloak, and adv specialist shotgun, a basic SMG, and a stable active scanner. Their cpu is a little tight, but it all fits'' Well yeah, Min are supposed to have trouble fitting stuff. While amarr has usually less slots but higher CPU-PG values. STILL, Minmatar will be better if your purpose is NK use or Infiltration hacking. The Gal is just a better BATTLE suit... The minmitar should be able to speed tank, thats it. Gallente can have more ehp and better bonuses, but i want to be an anarchist, and i really cant if i get mowed down by rail rifles in less than half a second. I agree that the nova knife and hacking bonus have their place, but thats only in a skirmish or sometimes dom, and for nova knives if your target is under 2 meters away, facing away from you, or coming out from behind a wall low lag, not doing the constant moving in a circle thing, not sprinting, not jumping, and you have luck on your side, and your target has less than 500 EHP Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4424	Posted - 2014.02.07 03:46:00 - [85] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: The minmitar should be able to speed tank, thats it. Gallente can have more ehp and better bonuses, but i want to be an anarchist, and i really cant if i get mowed down by rail rifles in less than half a second. I agree that the nova knife and hacking bonus have their place, but thats only in a skirmish or sometimes dom, and for nova knives if your target is under 2 meters away, facing away from you, or coming out from behind a wall low lag, not doing the constant moving in a circle thing, not sprinting, not jumping, and you have luck on your side, and your target has less than 500 EHP Agreed. The minmatar scout should be able to speed tank. Also, the amarr scout should be able to not be crap. >..> AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 402	Posted - 2014.02.07 04:04:00 - [86] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: @ Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Gal is better in every way, but thats also due to armor/shield imbalance, so if that gets fixed i will agree. The main reason gallente is so good is because they can fit 3x kincats and a damage and a shield extender and a plate, requiring no slot for a profile dampener and still have room for a cloak and weapons. Minmitar, on the other hand, cant fit 3x kincats and 3x shields to become faster than gallente, it takes too much pg, and would only be able to fit a flaylock on afterwards (pg cost of modules=45+33=78, most minmitar can have with maxed skills is 80) so instead, we rely on a profile dampener. ''Gal is better in every way'' GÖª Ok this is not entirely true, because it REALLY DEPENDS on your play style!! NO OTHER SUIT IN THE GAME can provide 6 Complex damage mods worth in knife damage ( 3 high slots + bonus), PLUS THE innate Codebreaker makes the Min scout the elite hacker. Again, you are just thinking of the Scout as ASSAULTS use it, not as scouts use it. Real scouts DONT TANK. '' Cool, now ere slower than the gal scout, and equally dampened, with 15 pg to spare. whatever though, we can still fit nova knives and another weapon, and at least a basic cloak right? NOPE. nova knives cost 8 pg at proto (only useful form, and btw they dont having a fitting optimization skill etither) and a basic cloak costs 9 at maxed out skills. Now lets look at gallente-1 ADV plate+base hp with bonuses+complex shield extender= more hp than a minmitar scout with maxed skillls and 3x shield extenders, plus gallente get a 3/s armor rep. Now they can fit 3x kincats, and are faster than minmitar that was theory crafted above, and a damage mod to make them do more damage. now lets look at their pg usage- 3x15+11+5+9=70 pg. with maxed out skills, a g-scout is at over 90 pg, giving them 20 pg remaining, allowing for a cloak, and adv specialist shotgun, a basic SMG, and a stable active scanner. Their cpu is a little tight, but it all fits'' Well yeah, Min are supposed to have trouble fitting stuff. While amarr has usually less slots but higher CPU-PG values. STILL, Minmatar will be better if your purpose is NK use or Infiltration hacking. The Gal is just a better BATTLE suit... The minmitar should be able to speed tank, thats it. Gallente can have more ehp and better bonuses, but i want to be an anarchist, and i really cant if i get mowed down by rail rifles in less than half a second. I agree that the nova knife and hacking bonus have their place, but thats only in a skirmish or sometimes dom, and for nova knives if your target is under 2 meters away, facing away from you, or coming out from behind a wall low lag, not doing the constant moving in a circle thing, not sprinting, not jumping, and you have luck on your side, and your target has less than 500 EHP IDK tbh. If you brick tank a gallente, or any scout suit with armor plates, you just defeated the purpose of being a scout. Anyway, yes the minmatar are supposed to be fast, and that is why they innately get just about a free basic kin-kat built in vs gallente&caldari (a free enhanced kin-kat compared with amarr). So proto knives on a minja, without any damage mods, will do 575 damage per swipe when charged. This means if you can connect with both swipes, you are doing an alpha of 1150 dmg... without damage mods. That is pretty damn decent for a suit that can be invisible (cloak.) I think that last fact is not brought up enough.... you can become cloaked... this means sneaking up on people is going to become alot easier. Combine this with the ability to OHKO almost any suit in the game and I think we have a winner. Of course this ignores the fact that you can also hack an objective in under 3 seconds with the right fit-out. (remember the minmatar scout gets an innate +10% hack bonus just because) The minja is going to be insane when people figure out how to use it. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
ugg reset Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 479	Posted - 2014.02.07 04:08:00 - [87] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Also, Amarr scout bonus is trash compared to other bonuses. Other suits receive the equivalent of a complex module or more from the suit bonuses, while the Amarr scout gets less than a basic cardiac reg. Scouts already have insane endurance. the amarr suit will compound this and leave room for other mods. don't sell it short. Thr33 is the magic number.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 403	Posted - 2014.02.07 04:11:00 - [88] - Quote ugg reset wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Also, Amarr scout bonus is trash compared to other bonuses. Other suits receive the equivalent of a complex module or more from the suit bonuses, while the Amarr scout gets less than a basic cardiac reg. Scouts already have insane endurance. the amarr suit will compound this and leave room for other mods. don't sell it short. How many times does this need to be repeated? 5% per lvl to stamina and regen is worth less than a basic module That is amarr scout's ONLY bonus. The rest of the suits get the equivalent of AT LEAST 3 mods worth of bonuses (1 complex, and 2+ basic). This is why the stamina bonus being the ONLY bonus is absolutely garbage. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12931	Posted - 2014.02.07 04:12:00 - [89] - Quote Would not surprise me if the Minmatar Commando is faster than the Amarr Assault? CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
ugg reset Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 479	Posted - 2014.02.07 04:15:00 - [90] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: ugg reset wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Also, Amarr scout bonus is trash compared to other bonuses. Other suits receive the equivalent of a complex module or more from the suit bonuses, while the Amarr scout gets less than a basic cardiac reg. Scouts already have insane endurance. the amarr suit will compound this and leave room for other mods. don't sell it short. How many times does this need to be repeated? 5% per lvl to stamina and regen is worth less than a basic module That is amarr scout's ONLY bonus. The rest of the suits get the equivalent of AT LEAST 3 mods worth of bonuses (1 complex, and 2+ basic). This is why the stamina bonus being the ONLY bonus is absolutely garbage. Thr33 is the magic number.

KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4429	Posted - 2014.02.07 04:23:00 - [91] - Quote ugg reset wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Also, Amarr scout bonus is trash compared to other bonuses. Other suits receive the equivalent of a complex module or more from the suit bonuses, while the Amarr scout gets less than a basic cardiac reg. Scouts already have insane endurance. the amarr suit will compound this and leave room for other mods. don't sell it short. SCOUTS ALREADY HAVE INSANE ENDURANCE? An amarr Assault has 200 stamina same as any scout, 210 with biotics... the bonus to stamina is 30. not 50. not 100. 3 0 Stamina NEVER saved anyone from being shot at, not with AA mighty powers. Now, for the ''DONT sell it short'' part. The amarr scout is the one with the most crappy bonus, AKA: The worst of scouts. 40 more armor than gallente and 30 more stamina compared to other scouts are JUST NOT WORTH IT. He will need to SPEND a low slot to equip a cx profile dampener to have the same db as a Gal scout at level 5. He will need to spend 1 low slot on a basic range amplifier if he wants to E-war, thing that both CALDARI and GALLENTE scouts have. Not to mention the amount of slots needed to surpass a Minmatar scout speed OR Hacking capabilities AND the fact he will never be able to cause as much damage with NKnives. In the GAl vs Amarr part: a Gallente can equip a complex reactive plate ,and have similar (or more) Armor than an Amarr AND having 5 armor rep per second. Thing the Amarr would need a low slot for a complex armor rep and a SECOND slot , to surpass the Gal scout's current HP. I could agree if the amarr scout had MORE H & L Slots , but the fact is, they dont and they will never have. they have a bonus that can be replicated by ANY OTHER SCOUT with 1 MLT cardiac regulator (if needed) and nothing else to brag for... Amarr vs: Minmatar: Faster, 3x Sidearm damage mods worth in bonus, 1 Complex Code-breaker worth in bonus ( which is an EXPENSIVE module to fit),balanced slot layout 3L 3H. Gallente:Faster, 1cx profile dampener with in bonus, 1 Basic Range amp worth in bonus, has 40 less armor than the amarr,but compensates with Speed + 10 Shield HP + 3 armor rep per sec. Caldari:Has the ability to SHIELD tank,having great shield regeneration proprieties and high slots. Greatest E-War suit with both Basic Range amplifier and complex precision enhancer as a bonus. Faster of course. What does the amarr have? mr. Dont sell it short? AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
Nocturnal Soul Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 1844	Posted - 2014.02.07 04:33:00 - [92] - Quote The only good bonus the Amarr ever had was the heat reduction bonus and the uplink bonus( post 1.8) all the rest of them need slight tweaks( heavy) or they're just complete ass ( scout ) New born sAMARRi
Toby Flenderson research lab 246	Posted - 2014.02.07 04:41:00 - [93] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: I don't care what anyone thinks, its just bullshit that an assaults suit base speed is faster than any scouts it just defeats the purpose of being a scout and should be change ASAP Maybe wait until the suit is released before trying to change currently existing suits? Anyway, this is pretty ridiculous to say. Consider the advantages of the minmatar assault (M) vs. the amarr scout (A)GÇª M > A: EHP by 35 Slots by 1 Speed by 0.05 m/s CPU by 10 Melee by 30 Armor repair rate 1hp/s A > M: Equipment by 1 Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds Scan Range by 10m Scan Profile by 15 Scan Precision by 10 Stamina by 50 Stamina Recovery by 20 I've chosen not to include role bonuses for simplicity, as I was pretty sure my point was made already by the above comparison. Take note that not only are the M advantages less important/practical (melee, 1hp/s, speed, etc.), they are also extremely small improvements from the amarr suit. If you take a look at some of the A advantages, I'd argue that just about all of these are more important and I wouldn't trade any of them for anything in the M > A column. They are also clearly much higher increases (sometimes even doubled that of the minmatar suit). This being said, I don't see how someone in their right mind would be upset over a 0.05 m/s speed advantage given to the minmatar assault considering the massive advantages given to the amarr scout.
Nocturnal Soul Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 1846	Posted - 2014.02.07 04:48:00 - [94] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: I don't care what anyone thinks, its just bullshit that an assaults suit base speed is faster than any scouts it just defeats the purpose of being a scout and should be change ASAP Maybe wait until the suit is released before trying to change currently existing suits? Anyway, this is pretty ridiculous to say. Consider the advantages of the minmatar assault (M) vs. the amarr scout (A)GÇª M > A: EHP by 35 Slots by 1 Speed by 0.05 m/s CPU by 10 Melee by 30 Armor repair rate 1hp/s A > M: Equipment by 1 Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds Scan Range by 10m Scan Profile by 15 Scan Precision by 10 Stamina by 50 Stamina Recovery by 20 I've chosen not to include role bonuses for simplicity, as I was pretty sure my point was made already by the above comparison. Take note that not only are the M advantages less important/practical (melee, 1hp/s, speed, etc.), they are also extremely small improvements from the amarr suit. If you take a look at some of the A advantages, I'd argue that just about all of these are more important and I wouldn't trade any of them for anything in the M > A column. They are also clearly much higher increases (sometimes even doubled that of the minmatar suit). This being said, I don't see how someone in their right mind would be upset over a 0.05 m/s speed advantage given to the minmatar assault considering the massive advantages given to the amarr scout. Honestly I didn't even know it was that small of a difference when I read that I just assumed it was by like 3-5 of a tenth faster but know that someone's shown the math I really don't care anymore. But what is just absolute **** is the amarr bonus. New born sAMARRi
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3347	Posted - 2014.02.07 05:06:00 - [95] - Quote Ivan Avogadro wrote: Zeylon, but what role is left for the Amarr Scout now? Cal - range (EWAR) and passive precision (EWAR) Gal - range (EWAR) and dampening (EWAR) Min - nova knives (melee, Biotics-ish), speed (Biotics), and hacking Am - stamina and stamina regen (Biotics) Am needs something in the scout wheelhouse, but everything in Biotics and EWAR is taken. Unless you give them a straight melee bonus and turn them punch suits. You could give them the same range bonus that Cal and Gal get, leave the Min scout out in the cold as the least EWAR-y scout, but that dilutes down the war that the two nemeses have going. Min gets a bonus to fitting a weapon (offense). You could give them a bonus to fitting plates (defense, opposite their nemesis) but that would be too close to tanking them into assaults. The uplink runner idea is the only scouty one left, if they can carry extra uplinks or hives per equip slot. Bump up their stamina too. The problem with an uplink bonus is that it treads on the territory they "apparently" want to give to Logis, since they proposed logistics bonus there was the +spawns and -spawn time. You'd wind up with the Amarr collectively having: Tanky Smurf, Laser Smurf (nevermind that the use of the Laser Rifle and Scrambler overlaps quite a bit, reducing the utility there), Whatever-the-hell-they-make-the-Amarr-Assault-that-hopefully-isn't-a-stupid-armor-repper-bonus Smurf, Droplink Smurf, and you'd have the Amarr Scout become Droplink Smurf too. The intra-racial bleed-over bothers me more than intra-class bleedover. If you make the scout a damage/resist bonused scout, then you've doomed the Amarr bullpen to having two redundant roles: two assaults. One has crap hp and can cloak. Woooo. The link idea at least keeps a scout focus, but you still have the overlap problem of doubling up your roles that are link-bonused. The Minmatar suit is the fastest, but I'd argue its bonus isn't actually biotics. If the Amarr are supposed to be the best "runners", but not the fastest suit in the sense of general movement, then the Amarr bonus could be something like current stamina bonus + a bonus to Kincat function or sprint speed. This could be in the range so that the Proto Amarr scout would easily sprint faster than a Proto Minmatar Scout, but would retain the slower basic movement outside of sprint. That would be an Amarr actually focused on biotics. If you could see the Amarr as roving scout/sniper marksman types, then they could receive bonuses to semi-auto scrambler function with respect to range and/or damage, but modify the heat generation and/or RoF at the same time to make them midrange snipers that have the traditional poor scout tank and can't go nailing targets 5x faster than a sniper would. EWAR-wise, you could arguably give them a dominant "range" role, on the scale of a complex range amp or so, and then some secondary modifier (like the stamina bonus) that doesn't arise to the level of a complex mod. This is kinda boring, but it technically isn't taken and would serve as a counterpart to the other two EWAR'd scouts (complex ewar + std ewar meets... complex ewar + std biotic?). Bonuses aside, I'd like to see the all the suits' base speeds adjusted so that all the scouts retain some speed advantage over assaults, etc. If there is ANY suit class that should have a preserved speed advantage, then it is the scout. Otherwise, what's the point, really? I'd rather the Amarr had the same hp as the gallente if it meant it didn't have to be slower than a Minny Assault. Slapping more armor on your "fast suit" over at the Amarr labs just becomes retahded if you're slower than your friggin racial enemies' main assault suit at that point. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Toby Flenderson research lab 247	Posted - 2014.02.07 05:17:00 - [96] - Quote ugg reset wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: ugg reset wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Also, Amarr scout bonus is trash compared to other bonuses. Other suits receive the equivalent of a complex module or more from the suit bonuses, while the Amarr scout gets less than a basic cardiac reg. Scouts already have insane endurance. the amarr suit will compound this and leave room for other mods. don't sell it short. How many times does this need to be repeated? 5% per lvl to stamina and regen is worth less than a basic module That is amarr scout's ONLY bonus. The rest of the suits get the equivalent of AT LEAST 3 mods worth of bonuses (1 complex, and 2+ basic). This is why the stamina bonus being the ONLY bonus is absolutely garbage. I'm pretty sure that people pick a suit that has a bonus that compliments their play style. It then makes sense to continue to add modules that increase this stat even further. Add a complex module of the corresponding scout skills to that suit (i.e. cardiac regulator to the amarr, profile dampening to the gallente, hacking speed to the minmatar, etc.) and you'll see that, compared to any other suit using the same module, the percentage increase is highest for the Amarr scout's stamina bonus. For example, consider the bonuses of the Amarr scout vs. Gallente scout while each adds a complex module of their own type. For the Amarr scoutGÇª (Consider module skill passive multiplier as well in calculation) Effective Stamina = Base * Bonus * Module = 225 * 1.25 * 2.1 = 590.625 Effective Recovery = Base * Bonus * Module = 40 * 1.25 * 2.1 = 105 For the Gallente scout Effective Stamina = Base * Module = 200 * 2.1 = 420 Effective Recovery = Base * Module = 30 * 2.1 = 63 Now look at the percentage increase from using the Amarr scout over the GallenteGÇª Stamina % increase = (difference in suits)/Gallente stats = (590.625 - 420)/420 = 0.40625 (40.625% increase) Recovery % increase = (difference in suits)/Gallente stats = (105 - 63)/63 = 0.666GÇª (66.666GÇª% increase) For the Gallente scout Range = Base * Bonus * Skill * Module = 20 * 1.25 1.5 1.45 = 54.375 Profile = Base * Bonus * Skill * Module = 35 * 0.75 0.9 0.75 = 17.719 For the Amarr scout Range = Base * Skill * Module = 20 1.5 1.45 = 43.5 Profile = Base * Skill * Module = 35 0.9 0.75 = 23.625 Range % increase = (difference in suits)/Amarr stats = (54.375 - 43.5)/43.5 = 0.25 (25% increase) Profile % increase = (difference in suits)/Amarr stats = (17.719 - 23.625)/23.625 = -0.25GÇª (25% increase) Note that for the profile reduction, we count a negative decimal as a percentage reduction, which is considered a "positive" increase in efficiency. As you can see, when considering the advantage of using the Amarr scout suit with a corresponding complex module (which I'm sure most people usually tend to do) is much higher than using a Gallente scout with a corresponding complex module. I did the rest of the calculations a while back but never posted them (obviously tedious). I'm fairly certain that the 110% increase that a complex cardiac catalyzer mixed with an already 25% suit bonus multiplying by the highest base value of a drop suit stat will beat any other increase from any scout suit bonus with a complex module. This is why I hate when I read people complaining about the Amarr scout using the "oh well the others get a free complex module when this thing doesn't even get a basic". Clearly, when you stack a complex module on top of a drop suit bonus, the Amarr scout shines as far as it's effective advantage over the other scouts.
Toby Flenderson research lab 247	Posted - 2014.02.07 05:18:00 - [97] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: I don't care what anyone thinks, its just bullshit that an assaults suit base speed is faster than any scouts it just defeats the purpose of being a scout and should be change ASAP Maybe wait until the suit is released before trying to change currently existing suits? Anyway, this is pretty ridiculous to say. Consider the advantages of the minmatar assault (M) vs. the amarr scout (A)GÇª M > A: EHP by 35 Slots by 1 Speed by 0.05 m/s CPU by 10 Melee by 30 Armor repair rate 1hp/s A > M: Equipment by 1 Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds Scan Range by 10m Scan Profile by 15 Scan Precision by 10 Stamina by 50 Stamina Recovery by 20 I've chosen not to include role bonuses for simplicity, as I was pretty sure my point was made already by the above comparison. Take note that not only are the M advantages less important/practical (melee, 1hp/s, speed, etc.), they are also extremely small improvements from the amarr suit. If you take a look at some of the A advantages, I'd argue that just about all of these are more important and I wouldn't trade any of them for anything in the M > A column. They are also clearly much higher increases (sometimes even doubled that of the minmatar suit). This being said, I don't see how someone in their right mind would be upset over a 0.05 m/s speed advantage given to the minmatar assault considering the massive advantages given to the amarr scout. Honestly I didn't even know it was that small of a difference when I read that I just assumed it was by like 3-5 of a tenth faster but know that someone's shown the math I really don't care anymore. But what is just absolute **** is the amarr bonus. Hahaha I just posted more math explaining why the bonus is amazing.
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4432	Posted - 2014.02.07 05:21:00 - [98] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: Hahaha I just posted more math explaining why the bonus is amazing. AHAH SWEET! I will be looking forward to squadding up with you an YOUR PROTO AMARR SCOUT , see how well it fares vs my Gal scout ok? :3 (YOU ARE , after all, going to use the Amarr Scout right? Since the bonus is sooo amazing there is no other suit that can compare...?) AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3348	Posted - 2014.02.07 05:25:00 - [99] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: M > A: EHP by 35 Slots by 1 Speed by 0.05 m/s CPU by 10 Melee by 30 Armor repair rate 1hp/s A > M: Equipment by 1 Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds Scan Range by 10m Scan Profile by 15 Scan Precision by 10 Stamina by 50 Stamina Recovery by 20 This being said, I don't see how someone in their right mind would be upset over a 0.05 m/s speed advantage given to the minmatar assault considering the massive advantages given to the amarr scout. Three of the listed Amarr "advantages" over the Minmatar are shield related: Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds The Amarr Scout has the lowest base shields in the entire game, of any suit, and role, anywhere. Period. At Proto, it has 2 high slots with which to boost that. The Amarr is not going to get much mileage out that "bonus" against the Minmatar suit. The HP difference you refer to as "small" is also larger than the hp bonus the Amarr enjoys over the next highest ehp scouts. So, the extent to which it is meaningless, is only as meaningless as the advantage the Amarr enjoys over the Gallente or Caldari (the former of which has innate armor reps at 3 per second, the latter of which can leverage the scout shield bonuses more). The single slot advantage of the assault allows this difference to be exploited to an even larger degree. The fact that the speed difference is marginal is flame-bait, but the problem would be just as annoying if their speed was the exact same. The problem is the slowest scout being the at the same speed OR slower than the fastest assault. The lower scout hp typically indicates a need to speed tank or generally be "gone" to evade the slower but more powerful suits. The Amarr lacks any strafing advantage vs. an Minmatar Assault. The fact he can sprint longer (at the same speed) will make a difference... sometimes? But those few extra seconds of sprinting are largely irrelevant in the sense of combat viability, and not marked enough to set it apart in usefulness as a scout. The most salient bonuses the Amarr scout DOES have are the profile detection-related ones, but those are the same (or BETTER) across all scouts and the Amarr is SOL when it comes to the other scout strengths at dealing with other suits, especially the Minmatar assault which has a speed and hp advantage on him. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Toby Flenderson research lab 247	Posted - 2014.02.07 05:36:00 - [100] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Hahaha I just posted more math explaining why the bonus is amazing. AHAH SWEET! I will be looking forward to squadding up with you an YOUR PROTO AMARR SCOUT , see how well it fares vs my Gal scout ok? :3 (YOU ARE , after all, going to use the Amarr Scout right? Since the bonus is sooo amazing there is no other suit that can compare...?) I'm not saying it's better than any other suit, I'm saying that the claims that it's bonus is very small in comparison with the other 3 scout suit bonuses is false when you consider the extremely likely probability of "tanking" the bonus with a module. I prefer the current Gallente scout and already have the range skills maxed out and planned on becoming a stealth/radar beacon because that's my play style most of the time. I have the kin kats maxed as well for my minmatar scout if speed tanking becomes viable again. The decision regarding which suit to choose is not dependent on the stats as much as my play style. That being said, a slower scout is not my style, but it may ultimately be able to travel more effectively than the rest overall. I see that you're trying to trap me into admitting that I will probably not choose the Amarr scout and implying that my previous post does not reflect how I feel about the suits myself. Neither are true.

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3349	Posted - 2014.02.07 05:43:00 - [101] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: This is why I hate when I read people complaining about the Amarr scout using the "oh well the others get a free complex module when this thing doesn't even get a basic". Clearly, when you stack a complex module on top of a drop suit bonus, the Amarr scout shines as far as it's effective advantage over the other scouts. No, it's still *****, because you're ignoring the usefulness of said bonuses, and the practicality inherent in using a complex module or not. A bonus to something like dampening is very useful in the sense that you're almost required to use X modules if you want to evade active scanners. So, getting a free complex dampener (and a standard range amp to boot) is extremely useful in freeing up a slot, as you often NEED that higher tier dampener to get some value out of dampening in the first place. Scanners on the proto end are quite powerful, and rather common as well. The stamina comparison shows a clear numerical difference, but it ignores practicality. In terms of sprinting time, the Gallente can sprint for 42 seconds in your example, the Amarr can sprint about a minute. Yes, this is longer with the Amarr. This isn't a concrete need value-wise like the profile dampening though, where you need to hit X value to avoid scanners. Ask yourself how often do you need to sprint a minute in the game? In how many instances, when covering lots of ground, would running say... 42 seconds be just as good? Most of them. Actually, with maxed biotics, you rarely even need a stamina mod to begin with. You can close the distance to objectives fast/quickly enough with a kincat, and the speed is often more efficient and useful. Let's not forget the Gallente suit is also FASTER, and will cover more ground in those 42 seconds than the Amarr will in the first 42 of its sprint. So, the Amarr already sacrifices part of that stamina "bonus" to compensate for being slow. That's why the Amarr bonus is crap. Aside from the fact we're comparing "Less than a STD Module" and "Complex + a STD Module" in terms of bonus. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4437	Posted - 2014.02.07 05:49:00 - [102] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: I'm not saying it's better than any other suit, I'm saying that the claims that it's bonus is very small in comparison with the other 3 scout suit bonuses is false when you consider the extremely likely probability of "tanking" the bonus with a module. I prefer the current Gallente scout and already have the range skills maxed out and planned on becoming a stealth/radar beacon because that's my play style most of the time. I have the kin kats maxed as well for my minmatar scout if speed tanking becomes viable again. The decision regarding which suit to choose is not dependent on the stats as much as my play style. That being said, a slower scout is not my style, but it may ultimately be able to travel more effectively than the rest overall. I see that you're trying to trap me into admitting that I will probably not choose the Amarr scout and implying that my previous post does not reflect how I feel about the suits myself. Neither are true. Look bro. Facts are facts. Stamina is fun, but unless i get something like 100% Melee damage to go with it, its useless. I wouldn't use the Amarr scout even if it had 200% Stamina and Stamina recovery per level. Why? The same reason why YOU wont spend a single SP on the damn suit. Because it sucks. Now stop trying to convince people who ACTUALLY WANT TO SPEC IN THE SUIT , that its good, if your not even going to use it yourself. ok? STamina is a sh- bonus doesnt matter how you try to cover it: +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25%Profile dampening +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% Scan Radius +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% NK Damage +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% Hacking speed +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% Scan precision GOT IT? good. AceOfJokers666** [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
Nocturnal Soul Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 1849	Posted - 2014.02.07 05:54:00 - [103] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Hahaha I just posted more math explaining why the bonus is amazing. AHAH SWEET! I will be looking forward to squadding up with you an YOUR PROTO AMARR SCOUT , see how well it fares vs my Gal scout ok? :3 (YOU ARE , after all, going to use the Amarr Scout right? Since the bonus is sooo amazing there is no other suit that can compare...?) I'm not saying it's better than any other suit, I'm saying that the claims that it's bonus is very small in comparison with the other 3 scout suit bonuses is false when you consider the extremely likely probability of "tanking" the bonus with a module. I prefer the current Gallente scout and already have the range skills maxed out and planned on becoming a stealth/radar beacon because that's my play style most of the time. I have the kin kats maxed as well for my minmatar scout if speed tanking becomes viable again. The decision regarding which suit to choose is not dependent on the stats as much as my play style. That being said, a slower scout is not my style, but it may ultimately be able to travel more effectively than the rest overall. I see that you're trying to trap me into admitting that I will probably not choose the Amarr scout and implying that my previous post does not reflect how I feel about the suits myself. Neither are true. I just don't understand how you people don't understand its the slowest scout what good would running longer do if you run slow as **? Its has latterly ONE damn bonus that I could surpass with a basic mod. But that's not worst part I could get past all that if the bonus wasn't so ** like if I didn't care so much about aesthetics I'd be rocking Minmatar gear all day everyday. New born sAMARRi
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4437	Posted - 2014.02.07 05:59:00 - [104] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Hahaha I just posted more math explaining why the bonus is amazing. AHAH SWEET! I will be looking forward to squadding up with you an YOUR PROTO AMARR SCOUT , see how well it fares vs my Gal scout ok? :3 (YOU ARE , after all, going to use the Amarr Scout right? Since the bonus is sooo amazing there is no other suit that can compare...?) I'm not saying it's better than any other suit, I'm saying that the claims that it's bonus is very small in comparison with the other 3 scout suit bonuses is false when you consider the extremely likely probability of "tanking" the bonus with a module. I prefer the current Gallente scout and already have the range skills maxed out and planned on becoming a stealth/radar beacon because that's my play style most of the time. I have the kin kats maxed as well for my minmatar scout if speed tanking becomes viable again. The decision regarding which suit to choose is not dependent on the stats as much as my play style. That being said, a slower scout is not my style, but it may ultimately be able to travel more effectively than the rest overall. I see that you're trying to trap me into admitting that I will probably not choose the Amarr scout and implying that my previous post does not reflect how I feel about the suits myself. Neither are true. I just don't understand how you people don't understand its the slowest scout what good would running longer do if you run slow as **? Its has latterly ONE damn bonus that I could surpass with a basic mod. But that's not worst part I could get past all that if the bonus wasn't so like if I didn't care so much about aesthetics I'd be rocking Minmatar gear all day everyday. Ehem...... you are NOT telling me you are even THINKING of using this piece of crap of scout suit right? I mean if i get an infantry respec i'll get it to walk around the warbarge but tahts it. I'll be running (AN obviously superior) GAL scout. With 1 ENH Armor plate, 1 cx Profile Dam mod (for maximum dampening) 1 Complex armor rep module for a total of 9.25 repair per second and a complex range amplifier. This next to whatever Precision enhancer i can fit. AceOfJokers666** [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
Toby Flenderson research lab 247	Posted - 2014.02.07 06:02:00 - [105] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: M > A: EHP by 35 Slots by 1 Speed by 0.05 m/s CPU by 10 Melee by 30 Armor repair rate 1hp/s A > M: Equipment by 1 Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds Scan Range by 10m Scan Profile by 15 Scan Precision by 10 Stamina by 50 Stamina Recovery by 20 This being said, I don't see how someone in their right mind would be upset over a 0.05 m/s speed advantage given to the minmatar assault considering the massive advantages given to the amarr scout. Three of the listed Amarr "advantages" over the Minmatar are shield related: Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds The Amarr Scout has the lowest base shields in the entire game, of any suit, and role, anywhere. Period. At Proto, it has 2 high slots with which to boost that. The Amarr is not going to get much mileage out that "bonus" against the Minmatar suit. The HP difference you refer to as "small" is also larger than the hp bonus the Amarr enjoys over the next highest ehp scouts. So, the extent to which it is meaningless, is only as meaningless as the advantage the Amarr enjoys over the Gallente or Caldari (the former of which has innate armor reps at 3 per second, the latter of which can leverage the scout shield bonuses more). The single slot advantage of the assault allows this difference to be exploited to an even larger degree. The fact that the speed difference is marginal is flame-bait, but the problem would be just as annoying if their speed was the exact same. The problem is the slowest scout being the at the same speed OR slower than the fastest assault. The lower scout hp typically indicates a need to speed tank or generally be "gone" to evade the slower but more powerful suits. The Amarr lacks any strafing advantage vs. an Minmatar Assault. The fact he can sprint longer (at the same speed) will make a difference... sometimes? But those few extra seconds of sprinting are largely irrelevant in the sense of combat viability, and not marked enough to set it apart in usefulness as a scout. The most salient bonuses the Amarr scout DOES have are the profile detection-related ones, but those are the same (or BETTER) across all scouts and the Amarr is SOL when it comes to the other scout strengths at dealing with other suits, especially the Minmatar assault which has a speed and hp advantage on him. ' 1. 2 Complex shield extenders with passive skills gives the Amarr scout 281.5 shield. As far as getting the mileage out of it, this is what I generally have on my scouts ATM and it's plenty for a great buffer between engagements. The regen rate is nearly twice that of the minmatar assault. The only thing that the minmatar has is amount of shield, which IMO, past 300 doesn't mean nearly as much recharge delay/rate especially when you're talking about 4 extra seconds and nearly half the recharge rate. 2. I'm not talking about other scouts. I'm only comparing the M.A. and A.S. If a a sentinel had 100 more armor than another it wouldn't mean much considering they tend to break 1,000 ehp. This 100 would be a crazy increase for a scout but it doesn't mean anything when comparing sentinels. I would much rather have the natural armor reps from the gallente scout but that doesn't matter either, the point is 35 base ehp is hardly worth bragging about, especially going from a light to a medium assault suit that is meant for frontline action. As far as slots go, low slots are more useful for ehp tanking. I'm not sure on the math but I'd be willing to bet that the amarr scout could tank as much or more health than the minmatar assault. 3. I honestly don't even know what flame-bait means but if you're claiming that it's the principle of the matter (that the speed should be limited from tier to tier) then I'm sure you wouldn't mind the assault getting pushed back to 99% of the Amarr scout's speed. This would abide by this arbitrary restriction and make virtually no difference in playability, hence my point that the speed advantage is worthless. If the HP was significantly lower, then I'd agree with you, but it isn't. The minmatar assault is more like a scout than an assault in terms of speed and health, yet they're not expected to run from other "more powerful" suits. Strafing matters, I agree, but not 0.05 m/s. The stamina allows the scout to continue jumping in a CQ fight against anything and still have time to run and dodge and jump some more. This is why I'm killed the most as a scout: Not able to escape. Current scouts without regulators can jump a couple times and run around a nearby corner if they have full stamina. In those situations, stamina is gold, not necessarily speed. 4. Again I'm not concerned with the other scouts, as this thread is about the comparison between the Amarr scout and the Minmatar assault. If you want to see some interesting math with regards to other scouts, check out my last few posts.
Toby Flenderson research lab 247	Posted - 2014.02.07 06:19:00 - [106] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: This is why I hate when I read people complaining about the Amarr scout using the "oh well the others get a free complex module when this thing doesn't even get a basic". Clearly, when you stack a complex module on top of a drop suit bonus, the Amarr scout shines as far as it's effective advantage over the other scouts. No, it's still ***, because you're ignoring the usefulness of said bonuses, and the practicality inherent in using a complex module or not. A bonus to something like dampening is very useful in the sense that you're almost required to use X modules if you want to evade active scanners. So, getting a free complex dampener (and a standard range amp to boot) is extremely useful in freeing up a slot, as you often NEED that higher tier dampener to get some value out of dampening in the first place. Scanners on the proto end are quite powerful, and rather common as well. The stamina comparison shows a clear numerical difference, but it ignores practicality. In terms of sprinting time, the Gallente can sprint for 42 seconds in your example, the Amarr can sprint about a minute. Yes, this is longer with the Amarr. This isn't a concrete need value-wise like the profile dampening though, where you need to hit X value to avoid scanners. Ask yourself how often do you need to sprint a minute in the game? In how many instances, when covering lots of ground, would running say... 42 seconds be just as good? Most of them. Actually, with maxed biotics, you rarely even need a stamina mod to begin with. You can close the distance to objectives fast/quickly enough with a kincat, and the speed is often more efficient and useful. Let's not forget the Gallente suit is also FASTER, and will cover more ground in those 42 seconds than the Amarr will in the first 42 of its sprint. So, the Amarr already sacrifices part of that stamina "bonus" to compensate for being slow. That's why the Amarr bonus is crap. Aside from the fact we're comparing "Less than a STD Module" and "Complex + a STD Module" in terms of bonus. Do you even jump? Seriously people are so focused on running in straight lines when most of the time ability to jump around your target (especially heavies) is what keeps a scout alive. I'd say most of my deaths in engagements as a scout arise from not being able to escape/jump to safety. If you have a current minmatar logi and you want to run it as a hacker, you don't just take the bonus and run with that. You skill into code breakers and load it up so that you can insta-hack. In this way you're maximizing your advantage. If you're not doing this with your suits, you're doing something wrong. As far as practicality is concerned, I value stamina over dampening in the current build. No one is going to be complaining about getting scanned when they can run cloaks and avoid most of them completely, but that's beside the point. It's stupid to think that just because the advantage you get from biopics isn't either completely useful or completely useless as is dampening, that it doesn't matter. Think about how often fast you can use stamina and think about how fast the Amarr will recover. It's almost erasing the stamina restriction for the drop suit with a complex module. You can get it all back in seconds and just run for another minute. This is a huge difference in the scope of an entire match. Say you play a 15 minute match as the amarr scout. You could sprint for a minute every 6 seconds. This means that every 10 minutes of sprint requires 1 minute of rest. So out of an entire match you will spend less than 1.5 minutes not running. I'm not even sure you could fill that time with reloading.** This reminded me that I forgot to include the biopics passive skills in my calculations. Either way it will effect the Amarr scout more than the rest, so it would've only exaggerated my point. As far as speed goesGÇª The suit has 4 low slotsGÇª Use them.
Toby Flenderson research lab 247	Posted - 2014.02.07 06:26:00 - [107] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: I'm not saying it's better than any other suit, I'm saying that the claims that it's bonus is very small in comparison with the other 3 scout suit bonuses is false when you consider the extremely likely probability of "tanking" the bonus with a module. I prefer the current Gallente scout and already have the range skills maxed out and planned on becoming a stealth/radar beacon because that's my play style most of the time. I have the kin kats maxed as well for my minmatar scout if speed tanking becomes viable again. The decision regarding which suit to choose is not dependent on the stats as much as my play style. That being said, a slower scout is not my style, but it may ultimately be able to travel more effectively than the rest overall. I see that you're trying to trap me into admitting that I will probably not choose the Amarr scout and implying that my previous post does not reflect how I feel about the suits myself. Neither are true. Look bro. Facts are facts. Stamina is fun, but unless i get something like 100% Melee damage to go with it, its useless. I wouldn't use the Amarr scout even if it had 200% Stamina and Stamina recovery per level. Why? The same reason why YOU wont spend a single SP on the damn suit. Because it sucks. Now stop trying to convince people who ACTUALLY WANT TO SPEC IN THE SUIT , that its good, if your not even going to use it yourself. ok? STamina is a sh- bonus doesnt matter how you try to cover it: +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25%Profile dampening +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% Scan Radius +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% NK Damage +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% Hacking speed +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% Scan precision GOT IT? good. Trying to level with me with some "facts" and then following with "stamina is useless" is ridiculous. Read my posts about my opinion on the suit. I may or may not get it. You're not going to trick me into skilling into it to prove to some random person on the forums that I really do mean what I'm saying about it. Clearly I don't think it sucks, it just may not be my cup of tea. Again, didn't say I wasn't going to use it. I could say the world about heavy suits but it wouldn't make me a hypocrite for not using them. It just means it's not how I play. That's why they made more than one suit: To give people options to adhere to their play style. I really think this is an extremely simple concept, but you seem to just not get it. Also, for the record, why would i try to convince people who already want to use the suit to use it? Haha, well, since you've clearly asserted your opinion as fact, I guess by the rules of logic, "i got it". Let me try nowGÇª You're "facts" are really opinions**. Please get it.
Toby Flenderson research lab 247	Posted - 2014.02.07 06:29:00 - [108] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Hahaha I just posted more math explaining why the bonus is amazing. AHAH SWEET! I will be looking forward to squadding up with you an YOUR PROTO AMARR SCOUT , see how well it fares vs my Gal scout ok? :3 (YOU ARE , after all, going to use the Amarr Scout right? Since the bonus is sooo amazing there is no other suit that can compare...?) I'm not saying it's better than any other suit, I'm saying that the claims that it's bonus is very small in comparison with the other 3 scout suit bonuses is false when you consider the extremely likely probability of "tanking" the bonus with a module. I prefer the current Gallente scout and already have the range skills maxed out and planned on becoming a stealth/radar beacon because that's my play style most of the time. I have the kin kats maxed as well for my minmatar scout if speed tanking becomes viable again. The decision regarding which suit to choose is not dependent on the stats as much as my play style. That being said, a slower scout is not my style, but it may ultimately be able to travel more effectively than the rest overall. I see that you're trying to trap me into admitting that I will probably not choose the Amarr scout and implying that my previous post does not reflect how I feel about the suits myself. Neither are true. I just don't understand how you people don't understand its the slowest scout what good would running longer do if you run slow as **? Its has latterly ONE damn bonus that I could surpass with a basic mod. But that's not worst part I could get past all that if the bonus wasn't so ** like if I didn't care so much about aesthetics I'd be rocking Minmatar gear all day everyday. They should really just replace the suit bonus with this quoteGÇª "Virtually remove stamina restriction with a complex cardiac regulator". It also has 4 low slots. If you're so sore about it being slow, make it fast.
Toby Flenderson research lab 247	Posted - 2014.02.07 06:30:00 - [109] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Hahaha I just posted more math explaining why the bonus is amazing. AHAH SWEET! I will be looking forward to squadding up with you an YOUR PROTO AMARR SCOUT , see how well it fares vs my Gal scout ok? :3 (YOU ARE , after all, going to use the Amarr Scout right? Since the bonus is sooo amazing there is no other suit that can compare...?) I'm not saying it's better than any other suit, I'm saying that the claims that it's bonus is very small in comparison with the other 3 scout suit bonuses is false when you consider the extremely likely probability of "tanking" the bonus with a module. I prefer the current Gallente scout and already have the range skills maxed out and planned on becoming a stealth/radar beacon because that's my play style most of the time. I have the kin kats maxed as well for my minmatar scout if speed tanking becomes viable again. The decision regarding which suit to choose is not dependent on the stats as much as my play style. That being said, a slower scout is not my style, but it may ultimately be able to travel more effectively than the rest overall. I see that you're trying to trap me into admitting that I will probably not choose the Amarr scout and implying that my previous post does not reflect how I feel about the suits myself. Neither are true. I just don't understand how you people don't understand its the slowest scout what good would running longer do if you run slow as **? Its has latterly ONE damn bonus that I could surpass with a basic mod. But that's not worst part I could get past all that if the bonus wasn't so ** like if I didn't care so much about aesthetics I'd be rocking Minmatar gear all day everyday. Ehem...... you are NOT telling me you are even THINKING of using this piece of crap of scout suit right? I mean if i get an infantry respec i'll get it to walk around the warbarge but tahts it. I'll be running (AN obviously superior) GAL scout. With 1 ENH Armor plate, 1 cx Profile Dam mod (for maximum dampening) 1 Complex armor rep module for a total of 9.25 repair per second and a complex range amplifier. This next to whatever Precision enhancer i can fit. boooooold
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3350	Posted - 2014.02.07 07:13:00 - [110] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: 1. 2 Complex shield extenders with passive skills gives the Amarr scout 281.5 shield. As far as getting the mileage out of it, this is what I generally have on my scouts ATM and it's plenty for a great buffer between engagements. The regen rate is nearly twice that of the minmatar assault. The only thing that the minmatar has is amount of shield, which IMO, past 300 doesn't mean nearly as much recharge delay/rate especially when you're talking about 4 extra seconds and nearly half the recharge rate. 2. I'm not talking about other scouts. I'm only comparing the M.A. and A.S. If a a sentinel had 100 more armor than another it wouldn't mean much considering they tend to break 1,000 ehp. This 100 would be a crazy increase for a scout but it doesn't mean anything when comparing sentinels. I would much rather have the natural armor reps from the gallente scout but that doesn't matter either, the point is 35 base ehp is hardly worth bragging about, especially going from a light to a medium assault suit that is meant for frontline action. As far as slots go, low slots are more useful for ehp tanking. I'm not sure on the math but I'd be willing to bet that the amarr scout could tank as much or more health than the minmatar assault. 3. I honestly don't even know what flame-bait means but if you're claiming that it's the principle of the matter (that the speed should be limited from tier to tier) then I'm sure you wouldn't mind the assault getting pushed back to 99% of the Amarr scout's speed. This would abide by this arbitrary restriction and make virtually no difference in playability, hence my point that the speed advantage is worthless. If the HP was significantly lower, then I'd agree with you, but it isn't. The minmatar assault is more like a scout than an assault in terms of speed and health, yet they're not expected to run from other "more powerful" suits. Strafing matters, I agree, but not 0.05 m/s. The stamina allows the scout to continue jumping in a CQ fight against anything and still have time to run and dodge and jump some more. This is why I'm killed the most as a scout: Not able to escape. Current scouts without regulators can jump a couple times and run around a nearby corner if they have full stamina. In those situations, stamina is gold, not necessarily speed. 4. Again I'm not concerned with the other scouts, as this thread is about the comparison between the Amarr scout and the Minmatar assault. If you want to see some interesting math with regards to other scouts, check out my last few posts. 1. Jebus-zombie-christ, learn to do math you primate! The recharge rate isn't remotely close to twice as much, it's about 33% higher. A Proto Minmatar Assault has a shield recharge of 22.5, and the Amarr Scout is fixed at 30, that's a difference of 7.5 hp. As mentioned, this is largely irrelevant as the Amarr has a fraction of the shield potential compared to the Minmatar assault. In terms of base ehp, the Minmatar Assault has an advantage of about 69 hp before any tanking mods are concerned. This is with passives: 150 Shields + 25% from Shield upgrades and 135 Armor + 25% from Armor Upgrades = 187.5 + 168.75 = 356.25 the Amarr Scout has: 60 Shields +25% from Shield upgrades and 170 Armor + 25% from Armor Upgrades = 75 + 212.5 = 287.5 You say the Amarr Scout can have 281 shields with bonuses... let's take a look: 75 base shield (with upgrades bonus) + 2 complex extenders (66hp, with 10% max extender bonus, so 72.6) = 220.2... that's alot less than the 281 shields you said they had. Frownie face. Once again, learn to do math, primate! You were already completely and totally wrong on two major calculations... it makes me want to recheck your other math. This is before any slot advantages or gear is decided, the hp advantage is more than a complex extender. Let's brick it now! The Minmatar Assault can fit 5 Complex Extenders and 2 Complex Plates... wow, so strunk. This makes for a total of 550 Shields and 460 Armor. Total Ehp of 1010. Movement speed is down to 4.8 m/s with all this on. The Scout's max shields, as mentioned, are 220hp, so the extent to which the scout can leverage it's "shield advantage" of 7.5 hp/s is against shields that are 330hp higher. Awesome. With 4 complex Armor plates, the scout could 806.5 hp to its shield total of 220.2, for a grand total of 1026.5 Ehp. Of course, the bad part is the Scout also receives TWICE the speed -5% speed penalty for equipping twice the plates against a suit he was already slower than! Whoopsie! So, 1010hp vs. 1026.5hp. That's a nice 16hp advantage the scout has, but at what price? a. Twice the speed penalty (the highest possible speed penalty of 5% as well) There is no stacking penalty on speed penalties, which makes for a considerably slower Amarr here. b. No regen for the most part - about 80% of the scout's hp can't regen at all, most of the Minmatar's shield hp can regen (more than half of it) and he has innate if low regen on his armor. c. In either case, brick tanking like that isn't terribly practical. Verdict? Minmatar win. 2. It was for reference, but the hp difference between the Min.Ass/Ama.Sco is ALSO larger than the hp advantage the Amarr Assault enjoys over the Caldari/Gallente Assault. The main point here is the hp advantage you're minimizing is larger than the hp advantage that is a balancing factor for the Amarr Logi/Assault vs. the other Assaults/logis, as it also used a rationale for making the Amarr slower than the other scouts, etc. The difference is LARGER than that one, both Assault and Scout. As for how that hp difference expands in practice, see above. You're negating a difference that expands to more than an unbonused Complex Shield Extender. Are those useless? People seem to fit them. You said you do. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3350	Posted - 2014.02.07 07:26:00 - [111] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: 3. I honestly don't even know what flame-bait means but if you're claiming that it's the principle of the matter (that the speed should be limited from tier to tier) then I'm sure you wouldn't mind the assault getting pushed back to 99% of the Amarr scout's speed. This would abide by this arbitrary restriction and make virtually no difference in playability, hence my point that the speed advantage is worthless. If the HP was significantly lower, then I'd agree with you, but it isn't. The minmatar assault is more like a scout than an assault in terms of speed and health, yet they're not expected to run from other "more powerful" suits. Strafing matters, I agree, but not 0.05 m/s. The stamina allows the scout to continue jumping in a CQ fight against anything and still have time to run and dodge and jump some more. This is why I'm killed the most as a scout: Not able to escape. Current scouts without regulators can jump a couple times and run around a nearby corner if they have full stamina. In those situations, stamina is gold, not necessarily speed. 4. Again I'm not concerned with the other scouts, as this thread is about the comparison between the Amarr scout and the Minmatar assault. If you want to see some interesting math with regards to other scouts, check out my last few posts. 3. Flame-bait refers to the topic title being sensationalist to troll for responses. The implication from the title is that the difference is stark; in reality the speeds are about equal. The principle of the matter is that scouts as a class are defined by speed, and up till now, even the slowest scout could claim that with a fair margin over the fastest assault. The issue isn't so much that the Minmatar assault is "faster" per se, but that it matches the speed if nothing else. The .2 difference the Gallente Scout has over the Minmatar Assault is noticeable. A shift to 99% of the Amarr Scout's speed doesn't solve it, it just reverses the marginal difference. To fill the roll, they need to have at least that noticeable edge in speed over the fastest assault. This is different from the role of most suits, because scouts are defined by their speed advantage. I disagree that jumping is a good proxy for speed or hp, and I loathe bunny-jumping stupidity in general. Strafe and move speed is useful regardless of your stamina, stamina is not. 4. I already answered that post. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3350	Posted - 2014.02.07 07:46:00 - [112] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: Do you even jump? Seriously people are so focused on running in straight lines when most of the time ability to jump around your target (especially heavies) is what keeps a scout alive. I'd say most of my deaths in engagements as a scout arise from not being able to escape/jump to safety. If you have a current minmatar logi and you want to run it as a hacker, you don't just take the bonus and run with that. You skill into code breakers and load it up so that you can insta-hack. In this way you're maximizing your advantage. If you're not doing this with your suits, you're doing something wrong. As far as practicality is concerned, I value stamina over dampening in the current build. No one is going to be complaining about getting scanned when they can run cloaks and avoid most of them completely, but that's beside the point. It's stupid to think that just because the advantage you get from biopics isn't either completely useful or completely useless as is dampening, that it doesn't matter. Think about how often fast you can use stamina and think about how fast the Amarr will recover. It's almost erasing the stamina restriction for the drop suit with a complex module. You can get it all back in seconds and just run for another minute. This is a huge difference in the scope of an entire match. Say you play a 15 minute match as the amarr scout. You could sprint for a minute every 6 seconds. This means that every 10 minutes of sprint requires 1 minute of rest. So out of an entire match you will spend less than 1.5 minutes not running. I'm not even sure you could fill that time with reloading. This reminded me that I forgot to include the biopics passive skills in my calculations. Either way it will effect the Amarr scout more than the rest, so it would've only exaggerated my point. As far as speed goesGÇª The suit has 4 low slotsGÇª Use them. You act like jumping is a cure-all.. it isn't. You're fixed in an easily targetable arc while in the air, strafing on the ground allows to change directions and play a second to second role in evading attacks. Running in straight lines isn't the only use of stamina, but closing the distance to objectives, etc. is why people mention it. I'd agree it's silly to be focused on running in straight lines. Being able to move faster without sprinting in general is more useful, 100% of the time. If most of your scout deaths result from not jumping, I'm not even sure what to say. It's apparently not enough for you to consider the higher stamina suit though, regardless. Maximizing bonuses is a useful way to play, and getting the max hacking bonus can indeed be useful. However, letting a bonus cover for a module instead of fitting one is another way to play it. To suggest that getting flexibility out of your suits is a bad idea means YOU'RE doing it wrong. You also happened to be using this argument with the one class that arguably needs it least. The Amarr Scout already has the highest Stamina out of the box, and more and more stamina is questionably useful compared to something like faster hack speed. There's an upper limit of the value of stamina... unless you're addicted to jumping non-stop for some reason. You're the only person in this whole thread that feels that would be useful, and even you don't want to play the Amarr scout. I'd say that effectively makes it a non-reason. Cloaks won't completely solve the dampening problem, as math in other scout threads has shown. Considering the restrictions on cloaks, the dampening will still be a large factor when your cloak isn't up as well. As for the possible uses of stamina WITH the module, considering the Amarr already has the highest stamina and recharge, he's already got ridiculously good stamina with a complex module and NO bonus. As I said, there's no threshold with stamina like there is with dampeners (avoid X scanners), if the + biotics bonus to stamina isn't enough, and the Amarr Scout (with a different bonus) fits a complex regulator.. he'd still have really really good stamina. More than enough. Still better than every other scout, and just as marginal and pointless to most gameplay. A minute is a lot, but an Amarr Scout running a complex regulator with NO class stamina bonus still gets about 50 seconds. That's... more than enough time? As far as the low slots and speed, that's just an ignorant statement. The only low slot mods that impact movement speed, lower it. The best you can do is increase sprint speed, which has stacking penalties, high cost, and does jack for movement/strafe. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
ugg reset Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 479	Posted - 2014.02.07 08:38:00 - [113] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25%Profile dampening (over kill much?by this logic it's gal scout or go home) +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% Scan Radius (all scouts are getting a range buff to 20m base.s GG min scout) +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% NK Damage (lol?) +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% Hacking speed (on a scout? ROFL. lets make the weakest suit type sit still with a blinking light over his head. no thankyou) +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% Scan precision (good for what? hunting other scouts/gimped assaults?) GOT IT? . Go play in traffic. Thr33 is the magic number.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 583	Posted - 2014.02.07 10:05:00 - [114] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Crimson Cerberes wrote: Why? because galente scout > minmatar assault higher ehp faster run speed longer run duration higher strafe speed can carry the same load out of weapons and equipment has faster shield recovery and shorter depletion We still do not know the new slo layouts for the assault suits, so I woul not be so confident that your statement will stay true. So lets have a look how your statements will work now: - higher ehp that is NOT true for the current build - faster run speed TRUE - longer run duration TRUE - higher strafe speed - can carry the same load out of weapons and equipment PARTLY TRUE the scout hast the same Wepaon equipment layout BUT way lower CPU/PG compared to the mini Assault that leads directly to better equipment for the Minni Assault.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 583	Posted - 2014.02.07 10:18:00 - [115] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25%Profile dampening (over kill much?by this logic it's gal scout or go home) +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% Scan Radius (all scouts are getting a range buff to 20m base.s GG min scout) +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% NK Damage (lol?) +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% Hacking speed (on a scout? ROFL. lets make the weakest suit type sit still with a blinking light over his head. no thankyou) +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% Scan precision (good for what? hunting other scouts/gimped assaults?) GOT IT? . So this is solely your opinion. I know the currently known Amarr scout bonus seems week but CCP alreday acknowledged that so we have to see what will happen here. Regarding the 100% stamina and Stamina recovery this depends on your prefered playstyle. I personally use a Cardiac regulator on many scout fits because FOR ME stamina is very important and I have died numerous times because I ran out of stamina in the wrong situation. So I use Stamina mods but I don't use complex codebreakers I do use NK but only for trolling not because they are are super effective sidearms I never use precision enhancers as I won't get an advantage out of them unless I would stack them
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 406	Posted - 2014.02.07 19:13:00 - [116] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: I don't care what anyone thinks, its just bullshit that an assaults suit base speed is faster than any scouts it just defeats the purpose of being a scout and should be change ASAP Maybe wait until the suit is released before trying to change currently existing suits? Anyway, this is pretty ridiculous to say. Consider the advantages of the minmatar assault (M) vs. the amarr scout (A)GÇª M > A: EHP by 35 Slots by 1 Speed by 0.05 m/s CPU by 10 Melee by 30 Armor repair rate 1hp/s A > M: Equipment by 1 Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds Scan Range by 10m Scan Profile by 15 Scan Precision by 10 Stamina by 50 Stamina Recovery by 20 I've chosen not to include role bonuses for simplicity, as I was pretty sure my point was made already by the above comparison. Take note that not only are the M advantages less important/practical (melee, 1hp/s, speed, etc.), they are also extremely small improvements from the amarr suit. If you take a look at some of the A advantages, I'd argue that just about all of these are more important and I wouldn't trade any of them for anything in the M > A column. They are also clearly much higher increases (sometimes even doubled that of the minmatar suit). This being said, I don't see how someone in their right mind would be upset over a 0.05 m/s speed advantage given to the minmatar assault considering the massive advantages given to the amarr scout. The amarr scout has 230 hp, not 250. The eHP advantage enjoyed by the minmatar assault if 55 EHP, not 35eHP. To put it another way, the minmatar suit has 124% the HP of the amarr scout. This is in conjunction with being faster. Comparing the rest of the stats is a dishonest comparison. The original statement is about the MEDIUM frame being faster than the LIGHT frame. Something that should not happen. You could just as easily do a similar stat comparison with the gallente/minmatar/caldari scout and come out with even more outrageous numbers in advantage of the scouts, in addition to those scouts being faster as well. The reason anyone would be upset is because the AMARR SCOUT IS GARBAGE. It has a bonus worth less than 1 basic module, it is slower than a suit that is an entire class larger, and there is NOTHING that it will be the best at.... or better than ANY of the suits at. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3369	Posted - 2014.02.07 19:20:00 - [117] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: I know the currently known Amarr scout bonus seems week but CCP alreday acknowledged that so we have to see what will happen here. Can you link me to where CCP acknowledged the scout bonus being weak? Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Ivan Avogadro Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 726	Posted - 2014.02.07 20:28:00 - [118] - Quote @Toby Flenderson: This is in response to your % comparison on page 5. I don't care about all the flaming war in between, but it is disingenuous to compare the bonuses by percentage, because (A) a single module can overtake that gap and (B) 25% dampening bonus is better, in most everyone's opinion, than 66% stamina. The only advantage of the Amarr bonus is it can reach higher Stamina than any other scout, but at the expense of all 4 low mods. If the Amarr only goes 3 cardiac regs, then any of scout can overtake it. A better way to compare suits it how easily they can both reach the same build. Assume all lvl 5 skills (core biotics, core armor, profile dampening, scan radius, cardiac regulation, armor repair, etc...) Amarr (no mods) EHP 287.5 Speed 5.51 Scan Distance33 Scan Profile 28.4 Armor Rep 0 Stamina 295 Stam Recovery 52.5 Gallente (no mods) EHP 250 Speed 5.72 Scan Distance 41.3 Scan Profile 21.1 Armor Rep 3 Stamina 210 Stam Recovery 31.5 Obviously, there are pros and cons to each. But the strength of the cardiac reg module (compared to the Amarr bonus), the lack of overwhelming difference in EHP, and the Gallente passive armor rep all make is significantly easier to equalize the Gal to a generic Amarr build than to do the reverse. Amarr needs at LEAST 1 complex mod, 1 enhanced mod, and 1 basic mod all in low slots to replicate the Gal bonuses. The Gal needs only 1 enhanced mod and 1 basic mod to not only replicate the Amarr bonuses but to exceed them. Amarr (1x Complex Dampener, 1 Enhanced Armor Rep, 1 Basic Range Amplifier) EHP 287.5 Speed 5.51 Scan Distance 41.3 Scan Profile 21.2 Armor Rep 3 Stamina 295 Stam Recovery 52.5 Gallente (1x Basic Armor, 1x Enhanced Cardiac Regulator) EHP 315 Speed 5.68 Scan Distance 41.3 Scan Profile 21.1 Armor Rep 3 Stamina 378 Stam Recovery 56.7 The Amarr build costs 83 CPU, 5 PG, and 3 low slots. The Gallente build costs 19 CPU, 6 PG, and 2 low slots. They have identical Scan Distance, Scan Profile, and Armor Reps, with nearly identical Stamina Recovery. But the Gallente has more EHP, more base Stamina, and more speed despite the plate. All for much much cheaper. And honestly, I would have gotten the builds closer together if I could have, but the smaller modules on the Gallente were already blowing away the Amarr. All I did was match the bonuses of the other race. I didn't come up with a Gallente preferential build for this. To match the Amarr suit is pitifully easy, because the bonuses are so low. To match the Gallente is abusively hard, because they bonuses make it unique and hard to mimic.
Toby Flenderson research lab 248	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:11:00 - [119] - Quote I'll respond individually later when I'm not on break at work but as many of you pointed out my math was incorrect on some of these figures and I've realized why. I mistook the melee damage column for the shield column of the spreadsheet. Honest mistake and if anyone disagrees then I don't really care because they would be stupid enough to think I would try to pull a fast one on an entire thread using fake stats. So the base stat who comparison is off and is 55?i would agree this bumps the ehp advantage from negligible to noticeable. The other mistake was assuming the passive armor/shield skills stack multiplicative on top of the total armor/shield on the drosuit. This will change the shield figure on the Amarr drop suit as was point out. While this is a decrease worth pointing out, it's still as much as my current suits have and I stand by what I said about it being a good buffer. I'll respond to the rest of you later tonight but to whoever called me a primate you can go **** yourself. Anyone can make honest mistakes in assumptions/spreadsheets, it doesn't mean anything other than they were mistaken about how a skill in a video game stacks and that reading huge spreadsheets on a cell phone can lead to misreading the cells.
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4448	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:03:00 - [120] - Quote @ Toby Flenderson Thats the thing smartass. The suit is NO ONE'S CUP OF TEA........... AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3379	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:11:00 - [121] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: I'll respond to the rest of you later tonight but to whoever called me a primate you can go **** yourself. Anyone can make honest mistakes in assumptions/spreadsheets, it doesn't mean anything other than they were mistaken about how a skill in a video game stacks and that reading huge spreadsheets on a cell phone can lead to misreading the cells. All humans are primates, genius. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4448	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:17:00 - [122] - Quote I'll give it to Toby Flenderson. If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good. BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences. Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...) On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months.... AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 415	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:28:00 - [123] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: I'll give it to Toby Flenderson. If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good. BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences. Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...) On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months.... Toby and Lynn for some reason are just flagrantly anti-amarr and I can't figure it out. IF you can not see that the amarr scout is garbage... Also, jump/melee is based off of percentage of stamina, not amount. This means more stamina =/= more jumping. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Nocturnal Soul Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 1859	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:35:00 - [124] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: I'll give it to Toby Flenderson. If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good. BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences. Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...) On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months.... Toby and Lynn for some reason are just flagrantly anti-amarr and I can't figure it out. IF you can not see that the amarr scout is garbage... Also, jump/melee is based off of percentage of stamina, not amount. This means more stamina =/= more jumping. Actually no, no matter how many green bottles your have you can only jump 3 times one right after another. But if your talking about waiting a few seconds after each jump then yes you can virtually jump ALOT. New born sAMARRi
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 694	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:55:00 - [125] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Aqua-Regia wrote: Amarr.... Amarr..... Amarr..... What the point even having anything Amarr anymore if CCP don't know what the hell Amarr suppose to be in a FPS. Scrambler Rifle to kick ass, Scrambler Rifle to have a reliable sidearm, and Laser Rifle to have fun. Spoken like a commando. Under 28db Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14) Selling SP: 10k SP per 100k ISK.
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 218	Posted - 2014.02.07 23:16:00 - [126] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: M > A: EHP by 35 Slots by 1 Speed by 0.05 m/s CPU by 10 Melee by 30 Armor repair rate 1hp/s A > M: Equipment by 1 Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds Scan Range by 10m Scan Profile by 15 Scan Precision by 10 Stamina by 50 Stamina Recovery by 20 This being said, I don't see how someone in their right mind would be upset over a 0.05 m/s speed advantage given to the minmatar assault considering the massive advantages given to the amarr scout. Three of the listed Amarr "advantages" over the Minmatar are shield related: Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds The Amarr Scout has the lowest base shields in the entire game, of any suit, and role, anywhere. Period. At Proto, it has 2 high slots with which to boost that. The Amarr is not going to get much mileage out that "bonus" against the Minmatar suit. The HP difference you refer to as "small" is also larger than the hp bonus the Amarr enjoys over the next highest ehp scouts. So, the extent to which it is meaningless, is only as meaningless as the advantage the Amarr enjoys over the Gallente or Caldari (the former of which has innate armor reps at 3 per second, the latter of which can leverage the scout shield bonuses more). The single slot advantage of the assault allows this difference to be exploited to an even larger degree. The fact that the speed difference is marginal is flame-bait, but the problem would be just as annoying if their speed was the exact same. The problem is the slowest scout being the at the same speed OR slower than the fastest assault. The lower scout hp typically indicates a need to speed tank or generally be "gone" to evade the slower but more powerful suits. The Amarr lacks any strafing advantage vs. an Minmatar Assault. The fact he can sprint longer (at the same speed) will make a difference... sometimes? But those few extra seconds of sprinting are largely irrelevant in the sense of combat viability, and not marked enough to set it apart in usefulness as a scout. The most salient bonuses the Amarr scout DOES have are the profile detection-related ones, but those are the same (or BETTER) across all scouts and the Amarr is SOL when it comes to the other scout strengths at dealing with other suits, especially the Minmatar assault which has a speed and hp advantage on him. ' 1. 2 Complex shield extenders with passive skills gives the Amarr scout 281.5 shield. As far as getting the mileage out of it, this is what I generally have on my scouts ATM and it's plenty for a great buffer between engagements. The regen rate is nearly twice that of the minmatar assault. The only thing that the minmatar has is amount of shield, which IMO, past 300 doesn't mean nearly as much recharge delay/rate especially when you're talking about 4 extra seconds and nearly half the recharge rate. 2. I'm not talking about other scouts. I'm only comparing the M.A. and A.S. If a a sentinel had 100 more armor than another it wouldn't mean much considering they tend to break 1,000 ehp. This 100 would be a crazy increase for a scout but it doesn't mean anything when comparing sentinels. I would much rather have the natural armor reps from the gallente scout but that doesn't matter either, the point is 35 base ehp is hardly worth bragging about, especially going from a light to a medium assault suit that is meant for frontline action. As far as slots go, low slots are more useful for ehp tanking. I'm not sure on the math but I'd be willing to bet that the amarr scout could tank as much or more health than the minmatar assault. 3. I honestly don't even know what flame-bait means but if you're claiming that it's the principle of the matter (that the speed should be limited from tier to tier) then I'm sure you wouldn't mind the assault getting pushed back to 99% of the Amarr scout's speed. This would abide by this arbitrary restriction and make virtually no difference in playability, hence my point that the speed advantage is worthless. If the HP was significantly lower, then I'd agree with you, but it isn't. The minmatar assault is more like a scout than an assault in terms of speed and health, yet they're not expected to run from other "more powerful" suits. Strafing matters, I agree, but not 0.05 m/s. The stamina allows the scout to continue jumping in a CQ fight against anything and still have time to run and dodge and jump some more. This is why I'm killed the most as a scout: Not able to escape. Current scouts without regulators can jump a couple times and run around a nearby corner if they have full stamina. In those situations, stamina is gold, not necessarily speed. 4. Again I'm not concerned with the other scouts, as this thread is about the comparison between the Amarr scout and the Minmatar assault. If you want to see some interesting math with regards to other scouts, check out my last few posts. 219 shield Fatal Absolution bench proficiency lvl 5 why so serious zatara
Toby Flenderson research lab 248	Posted - 2014.02.07 23:25:00 - [127] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: @ Toby Flenderson Thats the thing smartass. The suit is NO ONE'S CUP OF TEA........... Boldboldbold. You really don't understand what opinions are. I'm struggling to take you seriously but it's getting very difficult to read past the bold arrogance.
Ivan Avogadro Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 733	Posted - 2014.02.08 00:09:00 - [128] - Quote I have another way to look at your "data" Toby. Yes, Amarr get 66% bonus to Stamina while Gallente get a meager 25% bonus to dampening. But you can't just compare percentages of different things together to say which one is bigger. 25% of Texas is substantially larger than 66% of Rhode Island. You need to have a conversion in order to compare different things like this. So how does Stamina + Stamina Regen compare to Profile Dampening + Scan Radius? Which suit is Texas and which suit is Rhode Island? Well, luckily CCP has given us the conversion. They gave us modules that are supposedly balanced with the game economy, so we know exactly how much CCP values 1% of Stamina and how much the value 1% Profile. AMARR BONUS: 1x Complex Cardiac Regulator = 100% Stamina + 100% Stamina Regen Rate = 3150 ISK 1% Stamina and 1% Stamina Regen = 31.5 ISK Amarr Bonus = 25% Stamina + 25% Stamina Regen = 25 x 31.5 = 787.5 ISK GALLENTE BONUS Complex Profile Dampener = 45% Profile Reduction = 3615 ISK 1% Profile Reduction = 80 ISK Complex Range Amplifier = 25% Radius Increase = 3420 ISK 1% Radius Increase = 136.8 ISK Gallente Bonus = 25% Profile Reduction + 25% Radius Increase = 25 * 80 + 25 * 136 = 5428.3 ISK Holy crap! The Gallente bonus, when directly compared to the Amarr bonus, costs 689% more ISK! Just by running the Gal Scout, you get 689% more bonus FOR FREE. Who in their right mind would choose the Amarr scout? Can you actually still argue that this racial ability is worthwhile?
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4454	Posted - 2014.02.08 00:31:00 - [129] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: @ Toby Flenderson Thats the thing smartass. The suit is NO ONE'S CUP OF TEA........... Boldboldbold. You really don't understand what opinions are. I'm struggling to take you seriously but it's getting very difficult to read past the bold arrogance. I use bold to find my posts faster since my vision is highly deteriorated. More than arrogant, smart.... What , opinions are? Bro, please find me one person that will be using the Amarr scout FOR ITS BONUS, and i'll drop it. AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
Nocturnal Soul Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 1859	Posted - 2014.02.08 00:44:00 - [130] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: @ Toby Flenderson Thats the thing smartass. The suit is NO ONE'S CUP OF TEA........... Boldboldbold. You really don't understand what opinions are. I'm struggling to take you seriously but it's getting very difficult to read past the bold arrogance. I use bold to find my posts faster since my vision is highly deteriorated. More than arrogant, smart.... What , opinions are? Bro, please find me one person that will be using the Amarr scout FOR ITS BONUS, and i'll drop it. I like its aesthetics that is all, the only Amarr suit worth using is the logi and maybe the heavy(I say maybe because it doesnt have a weapon to call its own). New born sAMARRi

KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4456	Posted - 2014.02.08 00:47:00 - [131] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: I like its aesthetics that is all, the only Amarr suit worth using is the logi and maybe the heavy(I say maybe because it doesnt have a weapon to call its own). Most people that will use the Amarr scout is for either aesthetics or because they are amarr loyalists. NO ONE, i mean NO ONE, will say, OMG the Amarr Scout Bonus is the best! im going to spend 3mill on this suit. NO.ONE. AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
Nocturnal Soul Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 1860	Posted - 2014.02.08 00:51:00 - [132] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: I like its aesthetics that is all, the only Amarr suit worth using is the logi and maybe the heavy(I say maybe because it doesnt have a weapon to call its own). Most people that will use the Amarr scout is for either aesthetics or because they are amarr loyalists. NO ONE, i mean NO ONE, will say, OMG the Amarr Scout Bonus is the best! im going to spend 3mill on this suit. NO.ONE. Exactly I have a friend that every time a conversation about scouts come up it ends up with him saying "Your scout suit is ass"(not actual words) and me saying "Why you gotta bring that up I know its ass" the only thing the Amarr scout is useful for is looking good. New born sAMARRi
Toby Flenderson research lab 248	Posted - 2014.02.08 02:42:00 - [133] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Verdict? Minmatar win. 1. Read my post. I said that I didn't include suit bonuses for simplicity. If I did then the stamina stats would've been much higher on the Amarr side but you conveniently ignored that. I was basing it off of 30 vs. 18 which is just about right in between rounding up and rounding down from 33% to double. Either way, you're ignoring the point that the Amarr has just better regen than even a proto assault. I misunderstood how the passive skill worked and addressed it in an earlier post. You got me, I made a mistake. Moving on, my argument still stands. The two shield extenders would still make a great buffer, especially if it comes back in the time it takes for another suit to chase you around corners, assuming you're running and jumping out of the gun fight if need be. I don't know if you've noticed how quick TTK is, but 10 seconds to wait for your shield to even start coming back can easily lead to being picked off by another enemy or a returning Amarr scout. I don't see how you can just ignore the difference in delays/recharge just because the minmatar can tank more shield. Feel free to double check the rest of my math, I encourage it. I'd rather be corrected than be accused of making a dishonest case for the Amarr scout. Just because I made a mistake doesn't negate everything I'm saying though. I concede that the correct shield calculation/ehp comparison makes a better case for the ehp advantage to be more significant. It's still, IMO, not the most important thing to have in a suit. I wouldn't run a scout like a tank so you can talk about stacking complex plates on it all day but I'd much rather just rely on an SMG and sneak attacks. It's funny that you seemed to have taken this argument into a "the minmatar assault is WAY better at being a tank than a scout" when it started as a speed thing but whatever. When I can take down heavies with a toxin smg and an advanced scout suit just by jumping around/over them, I don't need 1000+ ehp. I'm not trying to brag, but it can and is being done by more than just me. This leads me to my next point about valuing jumping. People say it's so easy to hit people that are jumping and I agree if they are further away. This is not the case when someone charges straight at you with a weapon that's meant to spray and pray as you dance around them in circles. It simply works. I use the agility to my advantage but once you're out of sprint you're just as slow as the rest. Strafing is not necessarily superior to jump shotting IMO. It puts you on an equal playing field with a suit that may have 2-3 times your ehp. What those suits can't do is jump over your head or past you, causing you to have to 180 to being firing again. I'd consider the "you can track their trajectory when they jump" argument more if it were actually true in my experiences but it's simply not. You've ignored equipment completely. Scouts can also logi spam to an extent. Also get past many scanners. I'm going to move onto another post, I have a lot of people to respond to. Feel free to pick at my math again, but honestly the ehp was the least of my concerns considering I expected it to be much higher considering we were comparing a light to a medium suit.
Toby Flenderson research lab 248	Posted - 2014.02.08 02:44:00 - [134] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: I'll respond to the rest of you later tonight but to whoever called me a primate you can go **** yourself. Anyone can make honest mistakes in assumptions/spreadsheets, it doesn't mean anything other than they were mistaken about how a skill in a video game stacks and that reading huge spreadsheets on a cell phone can lead to misreading the cells. All humans are primates, genius. I see what you did there, you made it seem like an insult until I called you out on it and then tried to make it seem like just another factual statement about the universeGÇª Completely nullifying your insult to begin withGÇª Hmmm. You're really good at comebacks.
Toby Flenderson research lab 248	Posted - 2014.02.08 02:54:00 - [135] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: 3. I honestly don't even know what flame-bait means but if you're claiming that it's the principle of the matter (that the speed should be limited from tier to tier) then I'm sure you wouldn't mind the assault getting pushed back to 99% of the Amarr scout's speed. This would abide by this arbitrary restriction and make virtually no difference in playability, hence my point that the speed advantage is worthless. If the HP was significantly lower, then I'd agree with you, but it isn't. The minmatar assault is more like a scout than an assault in terms of speed and health, yet they're not expected to run from other "more powerful" suits. Strafing matters, I agree, but not 0.05 m/s. The stamina allows the scout to continue jumping in a CQ fight against anything and still have time to run and dodge and jump some more. This is why I'm killed the most as a scout: Not able to escape. Current scouts without regulators can jump a couple times and run around a nearby corner if they have full stamina. In those situations, stamina is gold, not necessarily speed. 4. Again I'm not concerned with the other scouts, as this thread is about the comparison between the Amarr scout and the Minmatar assault. If you want to see some interesting math with regards to other scouts, check out my last few posts. 3. Flame-bait refers to the topic title being sensationalist to troll for responses. The implication from the title is that the difference is stark; in reality the speeds are about equal. The principle of the matter is that scouts as a class are defined by speed, and up till now, even the slowest scout could claim that with a fair margin over the fastest assault. The issue isn't so much that the Minmatar assault is "faster" per se, but that it matches the speed if nothing else. The .2 difference the Gallente Scout has over the Minmatar Assault is noticeable. A shift to 99% of the Amarr Scout's speed doesn't solve it, it just reverses the marginal difference. To fill the roll, they need to have at least that noticeable edge in speed over the fastest assault. This is different from the role of most suits, because scouts are defined by their speed advantage. I disagree that jumping is a good proxy for speed or hp, and I loathe bunny-jumping stupidity in general. Strafe and move speed is useful regardless of your stamina, stamina is not. 4. I already answered that post. You completely missed my pointGÇª Either the similar speeds are a problem or they're not. I claim they're not. You obviously think they are, otherwise you wouldn't be complaining so much about it. This leads us to two possible reasonsGÇª 1. The speed affects the playability of either suit. By this, I mean that if either suit were given a 0.05m/s buff/nerf, people would notice. This is just ridiculous and untrue. No one would notice the difference, and even if someone could, they should not be complaining about something so minuscule. This leaves us with reason 2GÇª 2. The principle that scouts should be faster than assaults. I'm saying I'd be perfectly ok to nerd the Amarr scout to 99% of the Minmatar assault speed. If this were to happen then the second argument would be nullified and we would live in virtually the same universe where they're basically the same speed and no one can tell. But, after this nerf, no one using the 2nd argument could complain about it further. This completely solves the problem for argument 2. If you want a noticeable difference, pick a different scout suit, or make this one faster with kin cats. You can't have everything (speed, stealth, regen, etc.). Pick what's important to you and stop complaining. Strafe speed is good for suits that can't afford to jump past enemies. If you disagree that jumping makes you a harder target to hit close range then we are at an impasse on that subject. I understand that speed is important but the Amarr scout is still fast enough to do what scouts can do, and if they're not, they just sacrifice a low slot (easy, since they have 4) to bring them back up to other scouts.
Toby Flenderson research lab 249	Posted - 2014.02.08 03:30:00 - [136] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: You act like jumping is a cure-all.. it isn't. You're fixed in an easily targetable arc while in the air, strafing on the ground allows to change directions and play a second to second role in evading attacks. Running in straight lines isn't the only use of stamina, but closing the distance to objectives, etc. is why people mention it. I'd agree it's silly to be focused on running in straight lines. Being able to move faster without sprinting in general is more useful, 100% of the time. Maximizing bonuses is a useful way to play, and getting the max hacking bonus can indeed be useful. However, letting a bonus cover for a module instead of fitting one is another way to play it. To suggest that getting flexibility out of your suits is a bad idea means YOU'RE doing it wrong. You also happened to be using this argument with the one class that arguably needs it least. The Amarr Scout already has the highest Stamina out of the box, and more and more stamina is questionably useful compared to something like faster hack speed. As far as the low slots and speed, that's just an ignorant statement. The only low slot mods that impact movement speed, lower it. The best you can do is increase sprint speed, which has stacking penalties, high cost, and does jack for movement/strafe. EDIT: I know I already made fun of you for not being able to do math, but I'd figure I'd make more explicit one of your earlier mistakes: From the spreadsheet released: Amarr Scout: 60 Shields, 170 Armor = 230 eHP Existing Assault: Minmatar Assault: 150 Shields, 135 Armor = 285 eHP The base difference is 55hp, not 35. You were totally missing that... multiple times. As a side note, when you were making your comparison about the hp difference between heavy suits and how THAT would actually be appreciable... the hp difference here is ALSO larger than the difference between the Amarr Sentinel and Gallente/Caldari Sentinels (45hp difference there). Spoiler: Clipped original post to make roomGÇª If you're going to take every chance you can to point out a mistake I've made then I may as well reference Anchorman and laugh at " Being able to move faster without sprinting in general is more useful, 100% of the time". Being able to always sprint on average makes you faster than any other suit in the sense that you can always be sprinting. They have to catch you in the 6 seconds in between every minute of spiriting to be firing at a target that isn't walking. This gives the Amarr scout an effective speed advantage against any suit who doesn't have as much stamina as they do at the time of the engagement. People really need to learn how to read. I never said i was or wasn't getting this suit. I won't do it out of peer pressure but if I don't it will be a mixture of factors such as the millions of skills I have into the scan range/profile/dampening and kin cats. These would compliment the other scouts more and to use the Amarr scout as I have described would require skilling into shotguns and cardiac regulators to take advantage of the suit. Just because I don't typically use the current scouts that way does not make my points in any way invalid or dishonest. I reference the heavy suit analogy againGÇª By this logic, anyone who has ever thought that a heavy suit could be useful in CQC but didn't skill into them would be a hypocrite for acknowledging the benefits of the suit but not skilling into heavy suits/weapons right away. I understand your point about modules but this game has turned into tanking all across the board. Tanks use multiple hardeners or repairs, logis tank damage mods and armor, caldaris shield tank, and scouts used to speed tank. That's what people do all the time. To not take advantage of an opportunity to make a suit incredibly specialized when you can can be a mistake. No one goes for one of each module to make their character more balanced, they try and play on it's strengths and push it to the limits to overcome other people's strengths. Perfect example is a shield tanker engaging a DM tanker. You don't half ass it because most of the time if you do, you get killed. Just saw that you've drawn attention to me "not picking the suit" again in this post. I've explained my position multiple times. Stop it. The upper limit is virtually never having to worry about sprinting/jumping around corners if you're being shot. This is incredibly useful and if we disagree then I don't know what to say. The bonus also effects the recharge rate. 10 seconds can mean the difference between getting around a corner or not. The next time you're playing count 10 seconds worth of sprinting and try to imagine not having that every time you go to use it. It's enough of a bonus to notice the difference. We're not talking about what's "enough" as the normal hack speed is "enough" for everyone who isn't running a minmatar scout or code breakers. It's about excelling in a stat, not getting just enough to move around the map slightly more effectively than medium suits. That's cute, about the movement speed and low slots. I forgot that when people talk about speed tanking they mean strafe speedGÇª No. Sprint speed is clearly more important and they make modules especially for that. If you want the fastest scout, don't get the Amarr, plain and simple. If you want the most mobile suit, pick the Amarr scout and put a kin cat on it. Clearly I missed it multiple times because I referenced my own work. It's like starting a math problem copied incorrectly and arriving at a logical response but having someone tell you later you messed up 10 times, 1 for each step you used the wrong value. I made up a hypothetical heavy suits with a difference of 100 hp to demonstrate a point, so I don't know why you're referencing real suits and implying that I was making a claim about them.
Toby Flenderson research lab 249	Posted - 2014.02.08 03:37:00 - [137] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: I don't care what anyone thinks, its just bullshit that an assaults suit base speed is faster than any scouts it just defeats the purpose of being a scout and should be change ASAP Maybe wait until the suit is released before trying to change currently existing suits? Anyway, this is pretty ridiculous to say. Consider the advantages of the minmatar assault (M) vs. the amarr scout (A)GÇª M > A: EHP by 35 Slots by 1 Speed by 0.05 m/s CPU by 10 Melee by 30 Armor repair rate 1hp/s A > M: Equipment by 1 Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds Scan Range by 10m Scan Profile by 15 Scan Precision by 10 Stamina by 50 Stamina Recovery by 20 I've chosen not to include role bonuses for simplicity, as I was pretty sure my point was made already by the above comparison. Take note that not only are the M advantages less important/practical (melee, 1hp/s, speed, etc.), they are also extremely small improvements from the amarr suit. If you take a look at some of the A advantages, I'd argue that just about all of these are more important and I wouldn't trade any of them for anything in the M > A column. They are also clearly much higher increases (sometimes even doubled that of the minmatar suit). This being said, I don't see how someone in their right mind would be upset over a 0.05 m/s speed advantage given to the minmatar assault considering the massive advantages given to the amarr scout. The amarr scout has 230 hp, not 250. The eHP advantage enjoyed by the minmatar assault if 55 EHP, not 35eHP. To put it another way, the minmatar suit has 124% the HP of the amarr scout. This is in conjunction with being faster. Comparing the rest of the stats is a dishonest comparison. The original statement is about the MEDIUM frame being faster than the LIGHT frame. Something that should not happen. You could just as easily do a similar stat comparison with the gallente/minmatar/caldari scout and come out with even more outrageous numbers in advantage of the scouts, in addition to those scouts being faster as well. The reason anyone would be upset is because the AMARR SCOUT IS GARBAGE. It has a bonus worth less than 1 basic module, it is slower than a suit that is an entire class larger, and there is NOTHING that it will be the best at.... or better than ANY of the suits at. Oh and jumping is based upon a percentage of your stamina, not a set amount. This means there is no advantage to jumping for the amarr scout. I admitted to misreading the spreadsheet so yeah I made an error in the hp comparison. +1 for catching this without insisting I was trying to intentionally mislead the other readers. The comparison is not dishonest, but maybe irrelevant if you insist on calling it something "bad". I think I've addressed that light suits being faster than assaults shouldn't be a ridiculously strict rule in drop suit design especially when comparing the fastest medium and slowest light suits and only getting a 0.05m/s difference. Again, my solution is just trade the speeds and we can move on. You can jump until you run out of stamina and have it all back in 6 seconds to do what you will with it if you have the complex regulator. No other suit can say the same. I'm not saying that you need to jump constantly with this suit, I'm saying that you will be free to outmaneuver other suits without having to worry about if you have enough stamina to escape.
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4467	Posted - 2014.02.08 03:42:00 - [138] - Quote The amarr scout sucks. End thread/ AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
knight guard fury The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 867	Posted - 2014.02.08 03:44:00 - [139] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: The amarr scout sucks. End thread/ thats what u think Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
Nocturnal Soul Fatal Absolution 1860	Posted - 2014.02.08 03:53:00 - [140] - Quote The problem with the amarr scout is not sprint speed its movement speed STRAFING one of if not the scouts best defense against all weapons, having slower speed than a bigger suit makes zero sense. And another problem is whatever the Amarr can do the gallente can do better simple because the other suits have something that makes them stand out bonus wise at least. New born sAMARRi

Nocturnal Soul Fatal Absolution 1861	Posted - 2014.02.08 03:57:00 - [141] - Quote knight guard fury wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: The amarr scout sucks. End thread/ thats what u think If your not planning on specing into the suit than all further opinions you have on it are nullified. Yes im playing that card because people like you seem to not be able to grasp how easily the Amarr stats and bonuses are copied. New born sAMARRi
Toby Flenderson research lab 249	Posted - 2014.02.08 03:59:00 - [142] - Quote Ivan Avogadro wrote: @Toby Flenderson: This is in response to your % comparison on page 5. I don't care about all the flaming war in between, but it is disingenuous to compare the bonuses by percentage, because (A) a single module can overtake that gap and (B) 25% dampening bonus is better, in most everyone's opinion, than 66% stamina. The only advantage of the Amarr bonus is it can reach higher Stamina than any other scout, but at the expense of all 4 low mods. If the Amarr only goes 3 cardiac regs, then any of scout can overtake it. A better way to compare suits it how easily they can both reach the same build. Assume all lvl 5 skills (core biotics, core armor, profile dampening, scan radius, cardiac regulation, armor repair, etc...) Amarr (no mods) EHP 287.5 Speed 5.51 Scan Distance33 Scan Profile 28.4 Armor Rep 0 Stamina 295 Stam Recovery 52.5 Gallente (no mods) EHP 250 Speed 5.72 Scan Distance 41.3 Scan Profile 21.1 Armor Rep 3 Stamina 210 Stam Recovery 31.5 Obviously, there are pros and cons to each. But the strength of the cardiac reg module (compared to the Amarr bonus), the lack of overwhelming difference in EHP, and the Gallente passive armor rep all make is significantly easier to equalize the Gal to a generic Amarr build than to do the reverse. Amarr needs at LEAST 1 complex mod, 1 enhanced mod, and 1 basic mod all in low slots to replicate the Gal bonuses. The Gal needs only 1 enhanced mod and 1 basic mod to not only replicate the Amarr bonuses but to exceed them. Amarr (1x Complex Dampener, 1 Enhanced Armor Rep, 1 Basic Range Amplifier) EHP 287.5 Speed 5.51 Scan Distance 41.3 Scan Profile 21.2 Armor Rep 3 Stamina 295 Stam Recovery 52.5 Gallente (1x Basic Armor, 1x Enhanced Cardiac Regulator) EHP 315 Speed 5.68 Scan Distance 41.3 Scan Profile 21.1 Armor Rep 3 Stamina 378 Stam Recovery 56.7 The Amarr build costs 83 CPU, 5 PG, and 3 low slots. The Gallente build costs 19 CPU, 6 PG, and 2 low slots. They have identical Scan Distance, Scan Profile, and Armor Reps, with nearly identical Stamina Recovery. But the Gallente has more EHP, more base Stamina, and more speed despite the plate. All for much much cheaper. And honestly, I would have gotten the builds closer together if I could have, but the smaller modules on the Gallente were already blowing away the Amarr. All I did was match the bonuses of the other race. I didn't come up with a Gallente preferential build for this. To match the Amarr suit is pitifully easy, because the bonuses are so low. To match the Gallente is abusively hard, because they bonuses make it unique and hard to mimic. I don't see how i'm being disingenuous (had to look it up, but I still disagree) with the comparison considering everyone was basing their original opinions on the whole "it's equivalent to a basic module blah blah blah" standard. This does not reveal much about the true increase in advantage the bonus gives to one scout over another, while the percentage increase literally does exactly that. To your point A: Yeah adding modules typically does overtake gaps for most suits/skills. There's nothing special about the Amarr or the Gallente in this respect. B: May be true that most people would rather have dampening but if it means that much to you to always be invisible then you shouldn't be using the Amarr scout or you should be using a good cloak strategically. Just because people would rather have the bonus of one suit over another doesn't make one better than the other, it just means more people would prefer their own suit. People make claims that the minmatar assault was UP compared to the rest of the assaults but I completely disagree because I run the SMG mostly and the clip bonus is gold. The ratio of Caldari Assaults to Minmatar Assaults should demonstrate that people consider more health (or reload speed back when it had that) more useful than sidearm clip size. This doesn't mean the bonus should be changed because it's bad, it just means more people care more about reload speed or shield tanking (no surprise). This is why I went with a percentage increase. Completely unbiased by opinions on what is "better" across the board. The conclusion I got from your analysis (which was extremely interesting, honestly) is that the gallente is far more versatile than the Amarr. I don't typically go into a suit for the versatility but I understand that others do. If I want a hacking suit then I'll go where the hacking bonus is and max it out in any way I can. They could've given it to the callogi and I would've picked that suit because of it and stack modules to make it far superior than other suits. I don't try to replicate other suits, even if it can be done far easier with one than another. Another point I think that is worth considering is that people always try to compare suits to the Gallente (and now i guess also Caldari) scout in terms of scan profile but it's pointless. If you want to get to that level, just pick that suit. It should be hard to be invisible to scanners and you should have to give up a lot to do so. I think it's cool that CCP created a suit that can have a head start in that direction but to pick another suit, even another scout, and try to get as low as the scout that was meant to avoid every type of scanner is ridiculous and no one should get upset that it is costly. While this is MHO, I do agree that clearly the gallente suit is more versatile and honestly I thought the armor repair was too much and should be removed.
knight guard fury The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 867	Posted - 2014.02.08 03:59:00 - [143] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: knight guard fury wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: The amarr scout sucks. End thread/ thats what u think If your not planning on specing into the suit than all further opinions you have on it are nullified. Yes im playing that card because people like you seem to not be able to grasp how easily the Amarr stats and bonuses are copied. well considering m a jack of all trades i make everything useful also its bonuses will be helpfull as well for me Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
Toby Flenderson research lab 249	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:02:00 - [144] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: I'll give it to Toby Flenderson. If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good. BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences. Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...) On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months.... Haha if I'm happy with it why would I want it to be better just so other people will use it? It's not going to be FOTM like the rest of the suits have potential to be, but it's still a good suit.
Toby Flenderson research lab 249	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:05:00 - [145] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: I'll give it to Toby Flenderson. If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good. BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences. Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...) On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months.... Toby and Lynn for some reason are just flagrantly anti-amarr and I can't figure it out. IF you can not see that the amarr scout is garbage... Also, jump/melee is based off of percentage of stamina, not amount. This means more stamina =/= more jumping. Again, faster regen = more jumping. Am I being called a racist here? Haha by praising the suit? Just because it's not going to be super OP/FOTM doesn't mean it has to be buffed until it has potential to be. I was against all scout suit changes. I predict the scout suits will be the new assault suits and it will fill the forums within a week. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I will beGÇª
Toby Flenderson research lab 249	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:07:00 - [146] - Quote Faquira Bleuetta wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: M > A: EHP by 35 Slots by 1 Speed by 0.05 m/s CPU by 10 Melee by 30 Armor repair rate 1hp/s A > M: Equipment by 1 Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds Scan Range by 10m Scan Profile by 15 Scan Precision by 10 Stamina by 50 Stamina Recovery by 20 This being said, I don't see how someone in their right mind would be upset over a 0.05 m/s speed advantage given to the minmatar assault considering the massive advantages given to the amarr scout. Three of the listed Amarr "advantages" over the Minmatar are shield related: Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds The Amarr Scout has the lowest base shields in the entire game, of any suit, and role, anywhere. Period. At Proto, it has 2 high slots with which to boost that. The Amarr is not going to get much mileage out that "bonus" against the Minmatar suit. The HP difference you refer to as "small" is also larger than the hp bonus the Amarr enjoys over the next highest ehp scouts. So, the extent to which it is meaningless, is only as meaningless as the advantage the Amarr enjoys over the Gallente or Caldari (the former of which has innate armor reps at 3 per second, the latter of which can leverage the scout shield bonuses more). The single slot advantage of the assault allows this difference to be exploited to an even larger degree. The fact that the speed difference is marginal is flame-bait, but the problem would be just as annoying if their speed was the exact same. The problem is the slowest scout being the at the same speed OR slower than the fastest assault. The lower scout hp typically indicates a need to speed tank or generally be "gone" to evade the slower but more powerful suits. The Amarr lacks any strafing advantage vs. an Minmatar Assault. The fact he can sprint longer (at the same speed) will make a difference... sometimes? But those few extra seconds of sprinting are largely irrelevant in the sense of combat viability, and not marked enough to set it apart in usefulness as a scout. The most salient bonuses the Amarr scout DOES have are the profile detection-related ones, but those are the same (or BETTER) across all scouts and the Amarr is SOL when it comes to the other scout strengths at dealing with other suits, especially the Minmatar assault which has a speed and hp advantage on him. ' 1. 2 Complex shield extenders with passive skills gives the Amarr scout 281.5 shield. As far as getting the mileage out of it, this is what I generally have on my scouts ATM and it's plenty for a great buffer between engagements. The regen rate is nearly twice that of the minmatar assault. The only thing that the minmatar has is amount of shield, which IMO, past 300 doesn't mean nearly as much recharge delay/rate especially when you're talking about 4 extra seconds and nearly half the recharge rate. 2. I'm not talking about other scouts. I'm only comparing the M.A. and A.S. If a a sentinel had 100 more armor than another it wouldn't mean much considering they tend to break 1,000 ehp. This 100 would be a crazy increase for a scout but it doesn't mean anything when comparing sentinels. I would much rather have the natural armor reps from the gallente scout but that doesn't matter either, the point is 35 base ehp is hardly worth bragging about, especially going from a light to a medium assault suit that is meant for frontline action. As far as slots go, low slots are more useful for ehp tanking. I'm not sure on the math but I'd be willing to bet that the amarr scout could tank as much or more health than the minmatar assault. 3. I honestly don't even know what flame-bait means but if you're claiming that it's the principle of the matter (that the speed should be limited from tier to tier) then I'm sure you wouldn't mind the assault getting pushed back to 99% of the Amarr scout's speed. This would abide by this arbitrary restriction and make virtually no difference in playability, hence my point that the speed advantage is worthless. If the HP was significantly lower, then I'd agree with you, but it isn't. The minmatar assault is more like a scout than an assault in terms of speed and health, yet they're not expected to run from other "more powerful" suits. Strafing matters, I agree, but not 0.05 m/s. The stamina allows the scout to continue jumping in a CQ fight against anything and still have time to run and dodge and jump some more. This is why I'm killed the most as a scout: Not able to escape. Current scouts without regulators can jump a couple times and run around a nearby corner if they have full stamina. In those situations, stamina is gold, not necessarily speed. 4. Again I'm not concerned with the other scouts, as this thread is about the comparison between the Amarr scout and the Minmatar assault. If you want to see some interesting math with regards to other scouts, check out my last few posts. 219 shield Thanks for the catch. Acknowledged.
Nocturnal Soul Fatal Absolution 1861	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:07:00 - [147] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: I'll give it to Toby Flenderson. If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good. BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences. Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...) On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months.... Haha if I'm happy with it why would I want it to be better just so other people will use it? It's not going to be FOTM like the rest of the suits have potential to be, but it's still a good suit. The suit maybe with a slight speed buff, the bonus no its just complete butt stank New born sAMARRi
knight guard fury The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 867	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:10:00 - [148] - Quote all suits are have a purpose. you just have to find that purpose and use it to your advantage Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4469	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:15:00 - [149] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: I'll give it to Toby Flenderson. If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good. BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences. Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...) On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months.... Haha if I'm happy with it why would I want it to be better just so other people will use it? It's not going to be FOTM like the rest of the suits have potential to be, but it's still a good suit. So you ARE Confirming you are Biased after all! You are NOT Speccing into it. YOU ARE HAPPY WITH IT because is bad, your dont want it to be usable like the rest with a weak excuse like ''i dont want it to be FOTM''. Your posts there by, are all Meaningless since you have openly admitted that you WONT use the suit and you want it to remain BAD, so that no one specs into it. You sir , are a swine and you are not my na.* Look kid, LOOK at all the REST of the bonuses ,scouts,Commandos,heavy Sentinels,Assaults and Logis have. Then Look at the Amarr SCOUT one. YOU SERIOUSLY THINK ITS OK? No, of course not, you know its crap,you defend the bonus just for the trolls... AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
Toby Flenderson research lab 249	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:18:00 - [150] - Quote Ivan Avogadro wrote: I have another way to look at your data, Toby. Yes, Amarr get 66% bonus to Stamina while Gallente get a meager 25% bonus to dampening. But you can't just compare percentages of different things together to say which one is bigger. You only did half of the necessary calculations. How do you know 1% Stamina is a bigger bonus than 1% Profile Dampening? For example, 25% of Texas is substantially larger than 66% of Rhode Island. You need to have a conversion in order to compare different things. So how does Stamina + Stamina Regen compare to Profile Dampening + Scan Radius? Which suit is Texas and which suit is Rhode Island? Well, luckily CCP has given us the conversion. They gave us modules that are supposedly balanced with the game economy, so we know exactly how much CCP values 1% of Stamina and how much they value 1% Profile. AMARR BONUS: Complex Cardiac Regulator = 100% ( Stamina and Stamina Regen Rate ) = 3150 ISK 1% ( Stamina and Stamina Regen Rate ) = 31.5 ISK Amarr Bonus = 25% ( Stamina and Stamina Regen ) = 25 x 31.5 = 787.5 ISK GALLENTE BONUS Complex Profile Dampener = 45% Profile Reduction = 3615 ISK 1% Profile Reduction = 80 ISK Complex Range Amplifier = 25% Radius Increase = 3420 ISK 1% Radius Increase = 136.8 ISK Gallente Bonus = 25% Profile Reduction + 25% Radius Increase = 25 * 80 + 25 * 136 = 5428.3 ISK Holy crap! The Gallente bonus, when directly compared to the Amarr bonus, costs 689% more ISK! Just by running the Gal Scout, you get 689% more bonus FOR FREE. Who in their right mind would choose the Amarr scout? Can you actually still argue that this racial ability is worthwhile? Haha if ISK is the conversion factor then I suggest you take a look at MLT tanks, PLCs, SLs, Commando suits, Flaylock back in the day, etc.GÇª The point of using percentage increases is that the usefulness of one stat is based on preference and play styles. Also it fails to consider blueprintsGÇª. I'm not comparing stamina to dampening, I'm comparing increase in efficiency to increase in efficiency. There is nothing ambiguous about this comparison. The advantage given to the Amarr suit because of it's bonus is X and the advantage given to the Gallente suit because of it's bonus is Y. If X > Y then the Amarr bonus offers a larger advantage TO STAMINA than the Gallente bonus offers to DAMPENING. In your analogy you are not even including the other population in any calculation while a percentage increase does exactly that, measure the increase in efficiency from one suit to another. I don't know what other calculation you'd expect to do.

Toby Flenderson research lab 249	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:18:00 - [151] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: @ Toby Flenderson Thats the thing smartass. The suit is NO ONE'S CUP OF TEA........... Boldboldbold. You really don't understand what opinions are. I'm struggling to take you seriously but it's getting very difficult to read past the bold arrogance. I use bold to find my posts faster since my vision is highly deteriorated. More than arrogant, smart.... What , opinions are? Bro, please find me one person that will be using the Amarr scout FOR ITS BONUS, and i'll drop it. Jera 13. See you later.
Toby Flenderson research lab 250	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:19:00 - [152] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: @ Toby Flenderson Thats the thing smartass. The suit is NO ONE'S CUP OF TEA........... Boldboldbold. You really don't understand what opinions are. I'm struggling to take you seriously but it's getting very difficult to read past the bold arrogance. I use bold to find my posts faster since my vision is highly deteriorated. More than arrogant, smart.... What , opinions are? Bro, please find me one person that will be using the Amarr scout FOR ITS BONUS, and i'll drop it. Also try Control + F
Toby Flenderson research lab 250	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:21:00 - [153] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: The amarr scout sucks. End thread/ I wish I thought of this first...
Toby Flenderson research lab 250	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:23:00 - [154] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: knight guard fury wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: The amarr scout sucks. End thread/ thats what u think If your not planning on specing into the suit than all further opinions you have on it are nullified. Yes im playing that card because people like you seem to not be able to grasp how easily the Amarr stats and bonuses are copied. You're allowed to have opinions on suits even if you don't use them. Arguments do not have to be rooted to personal experience, they can be logical.
Toby Flenderson research lab 250	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:24:00 - [155] - Quote knight guard fury wrote: all suits are have a purpose. you just have to find that purpose and use it to your advantage Most sense I've seen on this thread so far.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3387	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:26:00 - [156] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: 1. Read my post. I said that I didn't include suit bonuses for simplicity. If I did then the stamina stats would've been much higher on the Amarr side but you conveniently ignored that. I was basing it off of 30 vs. 18 which is just about right in between rounding up and rounding down from 33% to double. Either way, you're ignoring the point that the Amarr has just better regen than even a proto assault. I misunderstood how the passive skill worked and addressed it in an earlier post. You got me, I made a mistake. Moving on, my argument still stands. The two shield extenders would still make a great buffer, especially if it comes back in the time it takes for another suit to chase you around corners, assuming you're running and jumping out of the gun fight if need be. I don't know if you've noticed how quick TTK is, but 10 seconds to wait for your shield to even start coming back can easily lead to being picked off by another enemy or a returning Amarr scout. I don't see how you can just ignore the difference in delays/recharge just because the minmatar can tank more shield. Feel free to double check the rest of my math, I encourage it. I'd rather be corrected than be accused of making a dishonest case for the Amarr scout. Just because I made a mistake doesn't negate everything I'm saying though. I concede that the correct shield calculation/ehp comparison makes a better case for the ehp advantage to be more significant. It's still, IMO, not the most important thing to have in a suit. I wouldn't run a scout like a tank so you can talk about stacking complex plates on it all day but I'd much rather just rely on an SMG and sneak attacks. It's funny that you seemed to have taken this argument into a "the minmatar assault is WAY better at being a tank than a scout" when it started as a speed thing but whatever. When I can take down heavies with a toxin smg and an advanced scout suit just by jumping around/over them, I don't need 1000+ ehp. I'm not trying to brag, but it can and is being done by more than just me. This leads me to my next point about valuing jumping. People say it's so easy to hit people that are jumping and I agree if they are further away. This is not the case when someone charges straight at you with a weapon that's meant to spray and pray as you dance around them in circles. It simply works. I use the agility to my advantage but once you're out of sprint you're just as slow as the rest. Strafing is not necessarily superior to jump shotting IMO. It puts you on an equal playing field with a suit that may have 2-3 times your ehp. What those suits can't do is jump over your head or past you, causing you to have to 180 to being firing again. I'd consider the "you can track their trajectory when they jump" argument more if it were actually true in my experiences but it's simply not. You've ignored equipment completely. Scouts can also logi spam to an extent. Also get past many scanners. I'm going to move onto another post, I have a lot of people to respond to. Feel free to pick at my math again, but honestly the ehp was the least of my concerns considering I expected it to be much higher considering we were comparing a light to a medium suit. 1. This is really a case where "for simplicity" becomes duplicity. It's frankly disingenuous to say the class has twice the recharge when the class bonus would have to present to use a proto version of the suit in the first place. There's a large difference between 200% (double) and 33%. Saying the Amarr has a higher stamina bonus in this case would be irrelevant to any tanking argument. I've already made the case that the stamina presents no real advantage to the Amarr from a tanking perspective, so, yes - I'm ignoring the "advantage" of the bonus that I'm telling you is worthless to begin with. If I don't value the bonus to begin with, why would I count it as an asset to tanking/comparison with the Minmatar? I wouldn't say I was "ignoring" the fact that the Amarr Scout has 7.5 hp/s more shield recharge though. I was pointing how little value that has relative to the Minmatar, as there's a very hard and relatively low cap on the shields that the Amarr can fit. In the full-tank scenario, this is especially evident. A fraction of the the Amarr Scout's hp has any innate regen at all, and as mentioned - lowest base shields in the entire game. The Minmatar has more than twice shields of the Amarr Scout at base, and can fit 3 more shield extenders. Basically, the Amarr lacks the stats to leverage the very small shield advantage against a suit with much better shield tank. In a scenario where we're talking about ducking behind and strafing around corners to regen shields, the Amarr Scout has already sacrificed any speed-related edge they might have over the assault. The point isn't to advocate a full brick tank, which isn't to either's strength. But to point out that it can't tank better AND it has no speed advantage either. Speed is the typical way to compensate for scout-squishiness. The Amarr won't have that, but will still be squishy relative to assault. You can't dance around a unit that is just as fast as you, not better at least. You'll still be weaker too. Back on jumping... this is part of the reason that some cardio regulators will give more recharge than max stamina. If you had 200 stamina and 10/s stamina regen - you'll recharge your stamina in 20 seconds. Give both a fat 50% bonus. Your stamina is now 300 and your recharge is 15/s. How long does it take your stamina to recharge now? Also 20s. How about 25%? 250 stamina and 12.5/s. Still 20. So, there isn't actually a stamina-related boost on the Amarr side for more jumps, any even bonus to both stamina and recharge rate will result in an identical time period to recharge to full. This means a %-based stamina drain like jumping won't be easier. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Toby Flenderson research lab 250	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:35:00 - [157] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: I'll give it to Toby Flenderson. If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good. BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences. Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...) On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months.... Haha if I'm happy with it why would I want it to be better just so other people will use it? It's not going to be FOTM like the rest of the suits have potential to be, but it's still a good suit. So you ARE Confirming you are Biased after all! You are NOT Speccing into it. YOU ARE HAPPY WITH IT because is bad, your dont want it to be usable like the rest with a weak excuse like ''i dont want it to be FOTM''. Your posts there by, are all Meaningless since you have openly admitted that you WONT use the suit and you want it to remain BAD, so that no one specs into it. You sir , are a swine and you are not my na.* Look kid, LOOK at all the REST of the bonuses ,scouts,Commandos,heavy Sentinels,Assaults and Logis have. Then Look at the Amarr SCOUT one. YOU SERIOUSLY THINK ITS OK? No, of course not, you know its crap,you defend the bonus just for the trolls... Hahaha where in my post did you get any of that. Let's break it downGÇª "Haha if I'm happy with it why would I want it to be better just so other people will use it?" Clearly supports the current proposal. If I believe that it is usable then why would I want it to get buffed just because other people don't think it's good enough? My vote is for no, yours is for yes. Still no sign of "I'm not speccing into the suit". "It's not going to be FOTM like the rest of the suits have potential to be, but it's still a good suit." Clearly not many people are convinced that this suit could be good so I do not foresee many threads QQ about the suit being overused. Does this in any way elude to me not using the suit myself especially after all of the support I've shown for it? No. I even ended it on "it's still a good suit". Please just tell me where you got any of that from my last post. I don't want anything to be FOTM, aka OP and overused because it's easy mode. I want the Gallente armor repair removed, the caldari shield recharge lowered. The minmatar is probably fine as is. Not wanting things to be FOTM and being glad that there will be a new suit that isn't instantly going to out-do every other suit like the logis currently do does not mean that I hope no one specs into it. Let me ask you thisGÇª Why would I spend so much time trying to convince people the last two days that this suit is good if I didn't want people to use it? I'm speaking to players, not CCP. I'm trying to share with potential users the advantages of the suit so that people use it more because it seems like people aren't going to use it now. I'm not saying that I would resist a buff but it would have to be very small because my opinion is that it is good as it is. Again, you have no reason to think that I will not use this suit let alone "confirmation" that i will NOT be using it. Even if I don't decide to use it (PLEASE TREAT THIS AS HYPOTHETICAL BECAUSE I KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO JUST JUMP ON THIS IN A RESPONSE), it would not change/nullify/invalidate any of the arguments I'm making in favor of the suit.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3387	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:45:00 - [158] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: You completely missed my pointGÇª Either the similar speeds are a problem or they're not. I claim they're not. You obviously think they are, otherwise you wouldn't be complaining so much about it. This leads us to two possible reasonsGÇª This is a straight-up false dichotomy. There is no reason to say there can only be two possible reasons. What is true? You think it's not a problem and I do - exactly that much. Toby Flenderson wrote: 1. The speed affects the playability of either suit. By this, I mean that if either suit were given a 0.05m/s buff/nerf, people would notice. This is just ridiculous and untrue. No one would notice the difference, and even if someone could, they should not be complaining about something so minuscule. This is a non-argument. You can say "speed affects the playability of either suit". I agree with that statement because I think speed makes a large difference. What does NOT follow from that is that a .05 m/s buff/nerf is noticeable. It's a complete non sequitur - the two statements have nothing to do with each other. The fact that the the Amarr Scout isn't noticeably faster (e.g. - scout speed advantage) is exactly the bad part. That's how speed affects the playability of the scout - by failing to give the scout a speed advantage over a better tanked suit. Toby Flenderson wrote: This leaves us with reason 2GÇª 2. The principle that scouts should be faster than assaults. I'm saying I'd be perfectly ok to nerd the Amarr scout to 99% of the Minmatar assault speed. If this were to happen then the second argument would be nullified and we would live in virtually the same universe where they're basically the same speed and no one can tell. But, after this nerf, no one using the 2nd argument could complain about it further. This completely solves the problem for argument 2. If you want a noticeable difference, pick a different scout suit, or make this one faster with kin cats. You can't have everything (speed, stealth, regen, etc.). Pick what's important to you and stop complaining. Strafe speed is good for suits that can't afford to jump past enemies. If you disagree that jumping makes you a harder target to hit close range then we are at an impasse on that subject. I understand that speed is important but the Amarr scout is still fast enough to do what scouts can do, and if they're not, they just sacrifice a low slot (easy, since they have 4) to bring them back up to other scouts. You're missing the point - whole point of this thread actually. The point is to have a noticeable difference in the speed of the Amarr scout. The phrasing of the title may suggest that even a slight bonus would rectify the situation, but I didn't write the title nor explain my position in those terms. Scouts need to have a noticeable speed advantage over assault to compensate for the lack of hp, and the Amarr does not have this. The Amarr aren't getting speed, stealth, or regen in comparison to other scouts. The speed isn't enough because they lack the actual speed advantage, both against an assault (which can out-tank them) and against other scouts. Saying to slot a kincat will do nothing for the strafe/combat speed, since it only boosts sprint speed. I pointed out math-wise in the previous post that the Amarr stamina bonus doesn't actually let them jump "more", they will jump exactly the same and regen enough for another jump in the exact period of time with or without the bonus. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1543	Posted - 2014.02.08 04:56:00 - [159] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: I'll give it to Toby Flenderson. If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good. BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences. Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...) On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months.... Haha if I'm happy with it why would I want it to be better just so other people will use it? It's not going to be FOTM like the rest of the suits have potential to be, but it's still a good suit. So you ARE Confirming you are Biased after all! You are NOT Speccing into it. YOU ARE HAPPY WITH IT because is bad, your dont want it to be usable like the rest with a weak excuse like ''i dont want it to be FOTM''. Your posts there by, are all Meaningless since you have openly admitted that you WONT use the suit and you want it to remain BAD, so that no one specs into it. You sir , are a swine and you are not my na.* Look kid, LOOK at all the REST of the bonuses ,scouts,Commandos,heavy Sentinels,Assaults and Logis have. Then Look at the Amarr SCOUT one. YOU SERIOUSLY THINK ITS OK? No, of course not, you know its crap,you defend the bonus just for the trolls... Ace, if the bonus is bad, then propose a better one. Note: A better one doesn't necessarily mean "Faster than Minmatar Scout" I honestly don't see a problem with it since the Amarr are notorious slowasses and the Minmatar are notorious for being speed tanked. Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4469	Posted - 2014.02.08 05:01:00 - [160] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: @ Toby Flenderson Thats the thing smartass. The suit is NO ONE'S CUP OF TEA........... Boldboldbold. You really don't understand what opinions are. I'm struggling to take you seriously but it's getting very difficult to read past the bold arrogance. I use bold to find my posts faster since my vision is highly deteriorated. More than arrogant, smart.... What , opinions are? Bro, please find me one person that will be using the Amarr scout FOR ITS BONUS, and i'll drop it. Jera 13. See you later. WTH is Jera13 Support Amarr scout bonus change! : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1813029#post1813029

KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4469	Posted - 2014.02.08 05:02:00 - [161] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: I'll give it to Toby Flenderson. If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good. BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences. Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...) On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months.... Haha if I'm happy with it why would I want it to be better just so other people will use it? It's not going to be FOTM like the rest of the suits have potential to be, but it's still a good suit. So you ARE Confirming you are Biased after all! You are NOT Speccing into it. YOU ARE HAPPY WITH IT because is bad, your dont want it to be usable like the rest with a weak excuse like ''i dont want it to be FOTM''. Your posts there by, are all Meaningless since you have openly admitted that you WONT use the suit and you want it to remain BAD, so that no one specs into it. You sir , are a swine and you are not my na.* Look kid, LOOK at all the REST of the bonuses ,scouts,Commandos,heavy Sentinels,Assaults and Logis have. Then Look at the Amarr SCOUT one. YOU SERIOUSLY THINK ITS OK? No, of course not, you know its crap,you defend the bonus just for the trolls... Ace, if the bonus is bad, then propose a better one. Note: A better one doesn't necessarily mean "Faster than Minmatar Scout" I honestly don't see a problem with it since the Amarr are notorious slowasses and the Minmatar are notorious for being speed tanked. Different Bonuses for the amarr scout are being discussed. Please refer to my SIG. BTW, BONUS =/= Base stats of the suit. Just saying Support Amarr scout bonus change! : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1813029#post1813029
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1544	Posted - 2014.02.08 05:14:00 - [162] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: I'll give it to Toby Flenderson. If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good. BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences. Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...) On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months.... Haha if I'm happy with it why would I want it to be better just so other people will use it? It's not going to be FOTM like the rest of the suits have potential to be, but it's still a good suit. So you ARE Confirming you are Biased after all! You are NOT Speccing into it. YOU ARE HAPPY WITH IT because is bad, your dont want it to be usable like the rest with a weak excuse like ''i dont want it to be FOTM''. Your posts there by, are all Meaningless since you have openly admitted that you WONT use the suit and you want it to remain BAD, so that no one specs into it. You sir , are a swine and you are not my na.* Look kid, LOOK at all the REST of the bonuses ,scouts,Commandos,heavy Sentinels,Assaults and Logis have. Then Look at the Amarr SCOUT one. YOU SERIOUSLY THINK ITS OK? No, of course not, you know its crap,you defend the bonus just for the trolls... Ace, if the bonus is bad, then propose a better one. Note: A better one doesn't necessarily mean "Faster than Minmatar Scout" I honestly don't see a problem with it since the Amarr are notorious slowasses and the Minmatar are notorious for being speed tanked. Different Bonuses for the amarr scout are being discussed. Please refer to my SIG. BTW, BONUS =/= Base stats of the suit. Just saying Good point, I still don't see a problem with the Amarr Scout being slower than the Minmatar Assault (Note: It has been edited, though I derped the dropsuit, I meant Minmatar Assault, not Minmatar Scout) Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3387	Posted - 2014.02.08 05:18:00 - [163] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: Spoiler: Clipped original post to make roomGÇª If you're going to take every chance you can to point out a mistake I've made then I may as well reference Anchorman and laugh at " Being able to move faster without sprinting in general is more useful, 100% of the time". Being able to always sprint on average makes you faster than any other suit in the sense that you can always be sprinting. They have to catch you in the 6 seconds in between every minute of spiriting to be firing at a target that isn't walking. This gives the Amarr scout an effective speed advantage against any suit who doesn't have as much stamina as they do at the time of the engagement. This ignores the speed factor. Sprinting has a limited utility in the since that you can't directly act (fire, etc.) while doing so, and your path is necessarily linear and forward. You can't sprint backwards. You can't sprint sideways in an engagement. Your ability to sprint or move around small obstacles/close quarters is hampered by how Sprinting functions. So, yes, better 100% of the time with respect to usefulness. As for the speed factor itself, all the scouts will will close the distance when sprinting at the Amarr in the same time frame. Toby Flenderson wrote: People really need to learn how to read. I never said i was or wasn't getting this suit. I won't do it out of peer pressure but if I don't it will be a mixture of factors such as the millions of skills I have into the scan range/profile/dampening and kin cats. These would compliment the other scouts more and to use the Amarr scout as I have described would require skilling into shotguns and cardiac regulators to take advantage of the suit. Just because I don't typically use the current scouts that way does not make my points in any way invalid or dishonest. I reference the heavy suit analogy againGÇª By this logic, anyone who has ever thought that a heavy suit could be useful in CQC but didn't skill into them would be a hypocrite for acknowledging the benefits of the suit but not skilling into heavy suits/weapons right away. Just going by: "The decision regarding which suit to choose is not dependent on the stats as much as my play style. That being said, a slower scout is not my style, but it may ultimately be able to travel more effectively than the rest overall." You gave me the impression that a "slower" scout wouldn't be your style? The scout being slower is exactly why we want it changed, and you're disagreeing with us on that point despite being "less" inclined to use it for exactly the same reason. That's why it seems relevant. Toby Flenderson wrote: The upper limit is virtually never having to worry about sprinting/jumping around corners if you're being shot. This is incredibly useful and if we disagree then I don't know what to say. The bonus also effects the recharge rate. 10 seconds can mean the difference between getting around a corner or not. The next time you're playing count 10 seconds worth of sprinting and try to imagine not having that every time you go to use it. It's enough of a bonus to notice the difference. We're not talking about what's "enough" as the normal hack speed is "enough" for everyone who isn't running a minmatar scout or code breakers. It's about excelling in a stat, not getting just enough to move around the map slightly more effectively than medium suits. Again, you don't actually get to jump more, you'll jump exactly the same number of times and wait just as long. Sprinting will require turning your back... Toby Flenderson wrote: That's cute, about the movement speed and low slots. I forgot that when people talk about speed tanking they mean strafe speedGÇª No. Sprint speed is clearly more important and they make modules especially for that. If you want the fastest scout, don't get the Amarr, plain and simple. If you want the most mobile suit, pick the Amarr scout and put a kin cat on it. We're referring to movement speed because the exact term in game for movement speed is.... well, movement speed. Sprint speed is something completely different, both stamina and action limited. All the scouts will have a sprint speed advantage over the Amarr assault AND the movement speed one. The Minmatar Assault will have comparable sprint/movement. Being able to stack slots is questionable as the stacking penalties hit really hard after 2 kincats for dimininshing returns that probably wouldn't be worth it, while two low slots on other suits isn't impossible to come by. Again though, the thread was originally more about the comparison between the Amarr Scout and the Minmatar Assault specifically, and wanting a marked gap between "roles". No one is asking for the Amarr to be the "the fastest scout" as you say. We're asking for a noticeable edge over assaults. Toby Flenderson wrote: I made up a hypothetical heavy suits with a difference of 100 hp to demonstrate a point, so I don't know why you're referencing real suits and implying that I was making a claim about them. From your message saying: "if a a sentinel had 100 more armor than another it wouldn't mean much considering they tend to break 1,000 ehp" I was attempting to intimate that you might be off in the sense of scale of suit differences, by pointing out the actual size of the gap. You suggest that a intra-sentinel gap of 100 hp wouldn't be a big deal because of the scale. The gap between the Amarr and Gal/Cal Heavies is 45 hp (that's the "advantage" the Amarr is given inside the same class). The fact the suit difference MinAss/AmSc was larger than the heavy difference was meant to imply you should check your numbers more closely (given your sense of 100hp not being a big deal there). Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 421	Posted - 2014.02.08 05:54:00 - [164] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: I'll give it to Toby Flenderson. If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good. BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences. Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...) On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months.... Toby and Lynn for some reason are just flagrantly anti-amarr and I can't figure it out. IF you can not see that the amarr scout is garbage... Also, jump/melee is based off of percentage of stamina, not amount. This means more stamina =/= more jumping. Actually no, no matter how many green bottles your have you can only jump 3 times one right after another. But if your talking about waiting a few seconds after each jump then yes you can virtually jump ALOT. I think we have a miscommunication here. Yes, I agree that jumps are percentage based, meaning they require a certain percentage of your entire stamina pool. This also means that unless you stamina recovery increased more than your stamina did (the reverse is true for the cardiac mods) then you will not be able to jump anymore. In other words, if you use any of the green bottles that increase stamina more than stamina recovery, you are making it harder for your suit to jump, not easier. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4471	Posted - 2014.02.08 05:57:00 - [165] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Good point, I still don't see a problem with the Amarr Scout being slower than the Minmatar Assault (Note: It has been edited, though I derped the dropsuit, I meant Minmatar Assault, not Minmatar Scout) Oh im sorry. The thread has evolved from that a little. The issue i and some of my like minded brethren are discussing is that the Amarr scout being slow is not that bad. IT GETS BAD when you take into account the joke of a Bonus CCP decided to give it. Support Amarr scout bonus change! : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1813029#post1813029
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 421	Posted - 2014.02.08 06:06:00 - [166] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: I admitted to misreading the spreadsheet so yeah I made an error in the hp comparison. +1 for catching this without insisting I was trying to intentionally mislead the other readers. The comparison is not dishonest, but maybe irrelevant if you insist on calling it something "bad". I think I've addressed that light suits being faster than assaults shouldn't be a ridiculously strict rule in drop suit design especially when comparing the fastest medium and slowest light suits and only getting a 0.05m/s difference. Again, my solution is just trade the speeds and we can move on. You can jump until you run out of stamina and have it all back in 6 seconds to do what you will with it if you have the complex regulator. No other suit can say the same. I'm not saying that you need to jump constantly with this suit, I'm saying that you will be free to outmaneuver other suits without having to worry about if you have enough stamina to escape. Thanks for trying to stay civil. Anyway, I think you mis-understood the stamina argument. So, every time you jump it requires let say 33% of your stamina (I think this is right, but not 100% on it). This means wether you have 50 stamina or 500 stamina you can only jump three times. So this much is clear right? good. Now if you increase stamina pool by the same percentage as stamina recovery rate, you have not changed any type of jumping characteristics of the suit. The suit still takes just as long to recovery 33% of it's stamina, so it still takes the same amount of time between jumps. The only thing stamina is useful for is sprinting. The only time More stamina is useful is when you would have already been out. The only time when recovery is useful is when you wouldn't have been at 100% to start with. As you can see, this bonus is not nearly as useful as it was made out to be by some. The other bonuses? dampening, precision, range, movement speed.... these bonuses are useful 100% of the time. Anyway, here is the crux of the arguement and something you haven't addressed: Should the scout class be the fastest suits in-game? Should light suits be faster than medium suits? As far as I can tell, you are saying yes to those question when it comes to gallente, caldari, and minmatar, but you are saying no to those questions when it comes to amarr. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 421	Posted - 2014.02.08 06:11:00 - [167] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: I don't see how i'm being disingenuous (had to look it up, but I still disagree) with the comparison considering everyone was basing their original opinions on the whole "it's equivalent to a basic module blah blah blah" standard. This does not reveal much about the true increase in advantage the bonus gives to one scout over another, while the percentage increase literally does exactly that. To your point A: Yeah adding modules typically does overtake gaps for most suits/skills. There's nothing special about the Amarr or the Gallente in this respect. B: May be true that most people would rather have dampening but if it means that much to you to always be invisible then you shouldn't be using the Amarr scout or you should be using a good cloak strategically. Just because people would rather have the bonus of one suit over another doesn't make one better than the other, it just means more people would prefer their own suit. People make claims that the minmatar assault was UP compared to the rest of the assaults but I completely disagree because I run the SMG mostly and the clip bonus is gold. The ratio of Caldari Assaults to Minmatar Assaults should demonstrate that people consider more health (or reload speed back when it had that) more useful than sidearm clip size. This doesn't mean the bonus should be changed because it's bad, it just means more people care more about reload speed or shield tanking (no surprise). This is why I went with a percentage increase. Completely unbiased by opinions on what is "better" across the board. The conclusion I got from your analysis (which was extremely interesting, honestly) is that the gallente is far more versatile than the Amarr. I don't typically go into a suit for the versatility but I understand that others do. If I want a hacking suit then I'll go where the hacking bonus is and max it out in any way I can. They could've given it to the callogi and I would've picked that suit because of it and stack modules to make it far superior than other suits. I don't try to replicate other suits, even if it can be done far easier with one than another. Another point I think that is worth considering is that people always try to compare suits to the Gallente (and now i guess also Caldari) scout in terms of scan profile but it's pointless. If you want to get to that level, just pick that suit. It should be hard to be invisible to scanners and you should have to give up a lot to do so. I think it's cool that CCP created a suit that can have a head start in that direction but to pick another suit, even another scout, and try to get as low as the scout that was meant to avoid every type of scanner is ridiculous and no one should get upset that it is costly. While this is MHO, I do agree that clearly the gallente suit is more versatile and honestly I thought the armor repair was too much and should be removed. I think you just avoided 99% of his post in your reply. He CLEARLY showed that the bonuses are quantifiable, and he showed how the quantity of the amarr bonus is completely lacking. You seem to have skimmed past this part (99% of his post) While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 421	Posted - 2014.02.08 06:12:00 - [168] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: I'll give it to Toby Flenderson. If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good. BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences. Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...) On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months.... Toby and Lynn for some reason are just flagrantly anti-amarr and I can't figure it out. IF you can not see that the amarr scout is garbage... Also, jump/melee is based off of percentage of stamina, not amount. This means more stamina =/= more jumping. Again, faster regen = more jumping. Am I being called a racist here? Haha by praising the suit? Just because it's not going to be super OP/FOTM doesn't mean it has to be buffed until it has potential to be. I was against all scout suit changes. I predict the scout suits will be the new assault suits and it will fill the forums within a week. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I will beGÇª again, faster regen combined with larger stamina pool = same jumping. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 421	Posted - 2014.02.08 06:19:00 - [169] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: Ivan Avogadro wrote: I have another way to look at your data, Toby. Yes, Amarr get 66% bonus to Stamina while Gallente get a meager 25% bonus to dampening. But you can't just compare percentages of different things together to say which one is bigger. You only did half of the necessary calculations. How do you know 1% Stamina is a bigger bonus than 1% Profile Dampening? For example, 25% of Texas is substantially larger than 66% of Rhode Island. You need to have a conversion in order to compare different things. So how does Stamina + Stamina Regen compare to Profile Dampening + Scan Radius? Which suit is Texas and which suit is Rhode Island? Well, luckily CCP has given us the conversion. They gave us modules that are supposedly balanced with the game economy, so we know exactly how much CCP values 1% of Stamina and how much they value 1% Profile. AMARR BONUS: Complex Cardiac Regulator = 100% ( Stamina and Stamina Regen Rate ) = 3150 ISK 1% ( Stamina and Stamina Regen Rate ) = 31.5 ISK Amarr Bonus = 25% ( Stamina and Stamina Regen ) = 25 x 31.5 = 787.5 ISK GALLENTE BONUS Complex Profile Dampener = 45% Profile Reduction = 3615 ISK 1% Profile Reduction = 80 ISK Complex Range Amplifier = 25% Radius Increase = 3420 ISK 1% Radius Increase = 136.8 ISK Gallente Bonus = 25% Profile Reduction + 25% Radius Increase = 25 * 80 + 25 * 136 = 5428.3 ISK Holy crap! The Gallente bonus, when directly compared to the Amarr bonus, costs 689% more ISK! Just by running the Gal Scout, you get 689% more bonus FOR FREE. Who in their right mind would choose the Amarr scout? Can you actually still argue that this racial ability is worthwhile? Haha if ISK is the conversion factor then I suggest you take a look at MLT tanks, PLCs, SLs, Commando suits, Flaylock back in the day, etc.GÇª The point of using percentage increases is that the usefulness of one stat is based on preference and play styles. Also it fails to consider blueprintsGÇª. I'm not comparing stamina to dampening, I'm comparing increase in efficiency to increase in efficiency. There is nothing ambiguous about this comparison. The advantage given to the Amarr suit because of it's bonus is X and the advantage given to the Gallente suit because of it's bonus is Y. If X > Y then the Amarr bonus offers a larger advantage TO STAMINA than the Gallente bonus offers to DAMPENING. In your analogy you are not even including the other population in any calculation while a percentage increase does exactly that, measure the increase in efficiency from one suit to another. I don't know what other calculation you'd expect to do. No you aren't actually comparing efficiency to efficiency. How can we know this? How hard is it to increase/decrease a certain attribute? You have set up absolutely no parameters by which to judge this efficiency and as such have failed to make a compelling argument. Do you want to use absolute values? Of course not, because 1 stamina =/= 1 scan resolution How about CPU/PG per percentage of altercation to the attribute? That sound laborious but definately solid. ME? I am lazy, I just want to know how hard it is to replicate these bonuses on a different suit... The amarrian suit? Try 2/3rds of a militia mod The gallente? Try a complex (dampner) an enhanced (rep) and a standard (range) The caldari? Try a complex and basic (precision) and another basic (range) The minmatar? Try 3 complex dmg mods, 1 complx code breaker, and 1 basic code breaker. This is of course WAY OFF TOPIC. Why should only the caldari, gallente, and minmatar have light suits that are the fastest suits in the game? While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Toby Flenderson research lab 250	Posted - 2014.02.08 08:20:00 - [170] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: This is a straight-up false dichotomy. There is no reason to say there can only be two possible reasons. What is true? You think it's not a problem and I do - exactly that much. This is a non-argument. You can say "speed affects the playability of either suit". I agree with that statement because I think speed makes a large difference. What does NOT follow from that is that a .05 m/s buff/nerf is noticeable. It's a complete non sequitur - the two statements have nothing to do with each other. The fact that the the Amarr Scout isn't noticeably faster (e.g. - scout speed advantage) is exactly the bad part. That's how speed affects the playability of the scout - by failing to give the scout a speed advantage over a better tanked suit. You're missing the point - whole point of this thread actually. The point is to have a noticeable difference in the speed of the Amarr scout. The phrasing of the title may suggest that even a slight bonus would rectify the situation, but I didn't write the title nor explain my position in those terms. Scouts need to have a noticeable speed advantage over assault to compensate for the lack of hp, and the Amarr does not have this. The Amarr aren't getting speed, stealth, or regen in comparison to other scouts. The speed isn't enough because they lack the actual speed advantage, both against an assault (which can out-tank them) and against other scouts. Saying to slot a kincat will do nothing for the strafe/combat speed, since it only boosts sprint speed. I pointed out math-wise in the previous post that the Amarr stamina bonus doesn't actually let them jump "more", they will jump exactly the same and regen enough for another jump in the exact period of time with or without the bonus. It actually is not a false dichotomy. The first step is either a true or false statement: Problem or not? There is no other answer for this as they are logical opposites and encompass all possible interpretations. The second part is still fair because we're talking about a change that only effects playability of two suits. Now if you answer no to part one then we're done and we don't even get this far. If you answer yes then you have to admit that the functionality of the suit is either noticeably changed or not. I'm not going to get too deep into "noticeably", but if you can't notice a difference then there is literally no reason to complain about it. The only possible logical alternative is that it light suits were, by design, intended to be faster and that is untrue with this new Amarr scout. There is no middle ground as these are either "agree/disagree" propositions. I literally clarify what I mean by "affects the playability". LIke I literally explain it immediately after the phrase "affects". Technically a 0.00001m/s difference effects the playability but I wanted to clarify that I am only considering "noticeable" differences in playability. Apparently this is where you really want to crack down on my criteria with which I judge this noticeability, but luckily I even continued to clarify what I was implying. I'm not claiming the speed difference affects either suit, I'm listing that as a possible argument which I lazily shoot down because I don't believe a reasonable person could notice that difference. People thought switching weapons made you run faster because of the animation. There's no way 0.05 m/s would be noticeable to the community. There's no conditional statement implying another in that entire section, there's nothing to follow, it's just clarification. I understand why people want scouts to be fast. Here's the thing. They are fast. It doesn't matter that one other non-scout suit is also fast. It doesn't somehow make the scouts less effective. That's why I was annoyed when I read how upset people were getting that "the fastest, most scout-like assault suit can run at virtually the same speed as the slowest scout suit". It doesn't make the Amarr scout slower than the rest of the Minmatar suits. Think of how people would respond if they just removed the Minmatar assault altogether. No one starts a thread about an assault weaseling it's way into scout speed territory. No one even cares because the Amarr scout is still faster than every other suit minus the 3 other scouts. Bring the Assault suit back and everyone flips out. Why? Because of the principle of the thing, because scouts have to be the fastest. That's why this is so ridiculous. There isn't some FOTM minmatar assault running around at scout speed proving to be better at the Amarr scout roll than it will be itself when it's released. This boils down to people just being upset because an assault suit can catch up to the slowest scout and that's ridiculous.

Toby Flenderson research lab 250	Posted - 2014.02.08 08:22:00 - [171] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: @ Toby Flenderson Thats the thing smartass. The suit is NO ONE'S CUP OF TEA........... Boldboldbold. You really don't understand what opinions are. I'm struggling to take you seriously but it's getting very difficult to read past the bold arrogance. I use bold to find my posts faster since my vision is highly deteriorated. More than arrogant, smart.... What , opinions are? Bro, please find me one person that will be using the Amarr scout FOR ITS BONUS, and i'll drop it. Jera 13. See you later. WTH is Jera13 I forgot that people have to post in the forums to exist. Rats...
Toby Flenderson research lab 250	Posted - 2014.02.08 08:32:00 - [172] - Quote Angry mob of Dust 514, I'm sorry but I think I'm done posting in this thread. Every time I come back I spend a couple hours responding to like 5 people trying to tear apart paragraphs with more paragraphs. Say what you will but it's simply not worth it to continue these arguments as they are all almost identical but different enough to respond to individually. My bottom line is that I think the Amarr scout will be fine as it is and it doesn't bother me that an assault suit is faster than it. If you want the last word then keep posting and I will read the responses with an open mind, but I hope at least someone looks back and does the same. Until another scout thread appears, Toby
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6218	Posted - 2014.02.08 08:39:00 - [173] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: I don't care what anyone thinks, its just bullshit that an assaults suit base speed is faster than any scouts it just defeats the purpose of being a scout and should be change ASAP Aren't their base HP the same? Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Mortedeamor 1366	Posted - 2014.02.08 12:31:00 - [174] - Quote Denak Kalamari wrote: Because Amarr suits are not designed for speed, but durability. Sure, your Minmatar assault can run faster than an Amarr scout, but the Amarr scout keeps on blazing by as the Minmatar Assault stopped to catch a breath five times already. Not to mention that these are just the base stats, scouts usually invest at least a few points into biotics, specifically kinetic catalyzers, which would improve their base speed and possibly make the Amarr scout a bit faster than a standard Minmatar assault to emphasize this point look at the slot layout initial stamina and hp more-tae-dee-um-more stop asking how to pronounce my name its quite irritating no one fights on even ground
Nocturnal Soul Fatal Absolution 1864	Posted - 2014.02.08 14:35:00 - [175] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: I don't care what anyone thinks, its just bullshit that an assaults suit base speed is faster than any scouts it just defeats the purpose of being a scout and should be change ASAP Aren't their base HP the same? Nope, the amarr scout has less hp New born sAMARRi
G Torq ALTA B2O 399	Posted - 2014.02.08 15:24:00 - [176] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Because Amarr is slow, that how it works. Because Minmatar is fast that how it works. So the fast suit is slower than the slow suit. As expected. Don't be suprised if the Minmatar heavy is faster than the Amarr Logi See, this is why I've offered CCP to trade in my Amarr Sentinel blueprint + other Blueprints for a single Minmatar Sentinel ditto. Team Fairy DUST HTTP://Dust.Thang.DK/ - DUST514 Fitting Tool based on DUST SDE
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 479	Posted - 2014.02.08 18:49:00 - [177] - Quote The problem with the argument that the minmitar suits bonuses are better than the ammar is nullified by the fact that they are only usable in a skirmish on a player less than 2 meters away if they are not moving. Otherwise, you might as well go gallente Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3392	Posted - 2014.02.08 22:41:00 - [178] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: Angry mob of Dust 514, I'm sorry but I think I'm done posting in this thread. Every time I come back I spend a couple hours responding to like 5 people trying to tear apart paragraphs with more paragraphs. Say what you will but it's simply not worth it to continue these arguments as they are all almost identical but different enough to respond to individually. My bottom line is that I think the Amarr scout will be fine as it is and it doesn't bother me that an assault suit is faster than it. If you want the last word then keep posting and I will read the responses with an open mind, but I hope at least someone looks back and does the same. Until another scout thread appears, Toby The bottom line on our end is that you ignored every argument, made up straw men that we weren't arguing for, and blithely refused to answer when faced with evidence like the Amarr not actually being able to jump more often than others (which was the crux of your Amarr advantage in many cases). You made the argument about the speed difference between the Minmatar and Amarr not being large (which was conceded before you even showed up in the thread), but you continued attacking that anyway. If you're done, I won't bother dissecting the tragedy against logic and mess of misdirection that was your former reply. Hoping you learn math some day, Zeylon Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Onesimus Tarsus 1123	Posted - 2014.02.08 22:47:00 - [179] - Quote I really don't care who wins a flippin' footrace in this game. I want the scoutsuit that can dodge the OPRRCR sewer-scrapings this game has devolved into. Spock, the Rock, Doc Ock and Hulk Hogan.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 484	Posted - 2014.02.09 01:39:00 - [180] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Angry mob of Dust 514, I'm sorry but I think I'm done posting in this thread. Every time I come back I spend a couple hours responding to like 5 people trying to tear apart paragraphs with more paragraphs. Say what you will but it's simply not worth it to continue these arguments as they are all almost identical but different enough to respond to individually. My bottom line is that I think the Amarr scout will be fine as it is and it doesn't bother me that an assault suit is faster than it. If you want the last word then keep posting and I will read the responses with an open mind, but I hope at least someone looks back and does the same. Until another scout thread appears, Toby The bottom line on our end is that you ignored every argument, made up straw men that we weren't arguing for, and blithely refused to answer when faced with evidence like the Amarr not actually being able to jump more often than others (which was the crux of your Amarr advantage in many cases). You made the argument about the speed difference between the Minmatar and Amarr not being large (which was conceded before you even showed up in the thread), but you continued attacking that anyway. If you're done, I won't bother dissecting the tragedy against logic and mess of misdirection that was your former reply. Hoping you learn math some day, Zeylon I do beleive CCP will be changing jump cost to a constant, so dont worry and blindly complain. Amarr scout is still>minmitar assault in terms of scoutliness. Read my sig if you want to know what i think, last page i have a post about suit balancing, especially between scouts Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!

Mobius Wyvern Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4573	Posted - 2014.02.09 01:43:00 - [181] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: Why? Because it's Minmatar. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 220	Posted - 2014.02.09 22:16:00 - [182] - Quote maths: Amarr + 40 armor than Gallente scout basic armor : 85 -2 speed penalty 85/40 = 2,125/2 =1.0625 speed penalty 7,63 -1.0625% = 7,54 of amarr scout ,,,, gal scout movement is speed :5,45 - 1.0625 % = 5.39 for amarr scout Fatal Absolution bench proficiency lvl 5 why so serious zatara
Kelrie Nae'bre not in a corporation 202	Posted - 2014.02.10 01:26:00 - [183] - Quote This is a good read. It hadn't occurred to me before, but the Amarr will be a HUGE scout anomaly if they don't adjust the speeds. The "slowest" scout in the game right now is the Gallente scout, which still has a notable speed advantage on the Minmatar Assault. They're adding two scouts: Caldari and Amarr. The Caldari will be as fast as the Gallente, so - there's still a scout speed advantage over assault there. The Amarr is the only one in the game without the notable speed advantage over assaults. But the Amarr still has crap hp, so it both lacks the speed advantage afforded every other scout, and it's just as weak in terms of hp. You'd be a fool to skill into this ill-conceived suit.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3410	Posted - 2014.02.10 01:49:00 - [184] - Quote Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: This is a good read. It hadn't occurred to me before, but the Amarr will be a HUGE scout anomaly if they don't adjust the speeds. The "slowest" scout in the game right now is the Gallente scout, which still has a notable speed advantage on the Minmatar Assault. They're adding two scouts: Caldari and Amarr. The Caldari will be as fast as the Gallente, so - there's still a scout speed advantage over assault there. The Amarr is the only one in the game without the notable speed advantage over assaults. But the Amarr still has crap hp, so it both lacks the speed advantage afforded every other scout, and it's just as weak in terms of hp. You'd be a fool to skill into this ill-conceived suit. I threw up a post sort of about this on a petition to change the bonus in Feedback, but it was basically the point that the Amarr are not the slowest race across the board in EVE - and especially not when speed is required. From the EVE interceptor (fast ships) speeds: Exactly right. People over-think the racial paradigms business. The Amarr make some of the fastest ships in EVE... when the goal is to make the fastest ships. They do not try to make everything slow and tanky regardless of role, because that would just be stupid. The Amarr interceptor Crusader is faster than all of the Caldari and Gallente Interceptors, and only beaten by one of the Minmatar ships, the other Amarr interceptor is ALSO faster than every Caldari and Gallente Interceptor, and only matched and beaten by the Minmatar ships: Amarr Crusader -455 m/s Amarr Malediction -435 m/s Caldari Crow -430 m/s Caldari Raptor -420 m/s Gallente Taranis -420 m/s Gallente Ares -425 m/s Minmatar Stiletto -435 m/s Minmatar Claw -475 m/s In the speed race there (at base anyway), Amarr has 2nd place, and a tie for 3rd. The Amarr are inflexible about religion perhaps, but their combat strategies show that when agility is demanded - they can handle it. It's just food for thought when people talk about the Amarr needing to be slow and high armor... even when it makes no sense. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 653	Posted - 2014.02.11 11:46:00 - [185] - Quote So many complaints on Amarr scout..... Has no-one worked out that you have the ability to run near 1000m without pausing for breath... If you can't see why this is an awesome attribute for a scout then you need to spec into a different suit I'm pretty racist in Dust, I like Matari gear But this Amarr scout has me tempted Minmatar Demolitions Specialist Plasma Cannon will have its chance if AR/HAV 514 is ever fixed
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 83	Posted - 2014.02.11 13:08:00 - [186] - Quote that's what most people don't get, stamina is more important then top speed! I'd rather stack cardiacs then kincats. You might not be the fastest, but you can run for way longer, and the stamina comes back faster. Also stamina helps with those annoying railings that are in the way of all those nice short cuts.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1562	Posted - 2014.02.11 14:48:00 - [187] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: that's what most people don't get, stamina is more important then top speed! I'd rather stack cardiacs then kincats. You might not be the fastest, but you can run for way longer, and the stamina comes back faster. Also stamina helps with those annoying railings that are in the way of all those nice short cuts. Don't forget melee. Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 269	Posted - 2014.03.12 22:05:00 - [188] - Quote bump (n+ëGèÖGÇ+GèÖ)n+ën+PpÇÄG£º~TEARS~G£ºpÇÅ 1.8 Laser rifle buff faq will be back to melt all ur sorry ass the good ol chromosomes days.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2185	Posted - 2014.03.12 23:30:00 - [189] - Quote At least the Amarr Scout is useful. Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.


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