I'll respond to the rest of you later tonight but to whoever called me a primate you can go **** yourself. Anyone can make honest mistakes in assumptions/spreadsheets, it doesn't mean anything other than they were mistaken about how a skill in a video game stacks and that reading huge spreadsheets on a cell phone can lead to misreading the cells.

I'll give it to Toby Flenderson.

If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good.

BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences.

Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...)

---

On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months....

Toby and Lynn for some reason are just flagrantly anti-amarr and I can't figure it out.

IF you can not see that the amarr scout is garbage...

Also, jump/melee is based off of percentage of stamina, not amount. This means more stamina =/= more jumping.

Scrambler Rifle to kick ass, Scrambler Rifle to have a reliable sidearm, and Laser Rifle to have fun.

'

1. 2 Complex shield extenders with passive skills gives the Amarr scout 281.5 shield. As far as getting the mileage out of it, this is what I generally have on my scouts ATM and it's plenty for a great buffer between engagements. The regen rate is nearly twice that of the minmatar assault. The only thing that the minmatar has is amount of shield, which IMO, past 300 doesn't mean nearly as much recharge delay/rate especially when you're talking about 4 extra seconds and nearly half the recharge rate.

2. I'm not talking about other scouts. I'm only comparing the M.A. and A.S. If a a sentinel had 100 more armor than another it wouldn't mean much considering they tend to break 1,000 ehp. This 100 would be a crazy increase for a scout but it doesn't mean anything when comparing sentinels. I would much rather have the natural armor reps from the gallente scout but that doesn't matter either, the point is 35 base ehp is hardly worth bragging about, especially going from a light to a medium assault suit that is meant for frontline action. As far as slots go, low slots are more useful for ehp tanking. I'm not sure on the math but I'd be willing to bet that the amarr scout could tank as much or more health than the minmatar assault.

3. I honestly don't even know what flame-bait means but if you're claiming that it's the principle of the matter (that the speed should be limited from tier to tier) then I'm sure you wouldn't mind the assault getting pushed back to 99% of the Amarr scout's speed. This would abide by this arbitrary restriction and make virtually no difference in playability, hence my point that the speed advantage is worthless. If the HP was significantly lower, then I'd agree with you, but it isn't. The minmatar assault is more like a scout than an assault in terms of speed and health, yet they're not expected to run from other "more powerful" suits. Strafing matters, I agree, but not 0.05 m/s. The stamina allows the scout to continue jumping in a CQ fight against anything and still have time to run and dodge and jump some more. This is why I'm killed the most as a scout: Not able to escape. Current scouts without regulators can jump a couple times and run around a nearby corner if they have full stamina. In those situations, stamina is gold, not necessarily speed.

4. Again I'm not concerned with the other scouts, as this thread is about the comparison between the Amarr scout and the Minmatar assault. If you want to see some interesting math with regards to other scouts, check out my last few posts.

Boldboldbold. You really don't understand what opinions are. I'm struggling to take you seriously but it's getting very difficult to read past the bold arrogance.

I use bold to find my posts faster since my vision is highly deteriorated.

More than arrogant, smart....

What , opinions are? Bro, please find me one person that will be using the Amarr scout FOR ITS BONUS, and i'll drop it.

I like its aesthetics that is all, the only Amarr suit worth using is the logi and maybe the heavy(I say maybe because it doesnt have a weapon to call its own).

Most people that will use the Amarr scout is for either aesthetics or because they are amarr loyalists.

NO ONE, i mean NO ONE, will say, OMG the Amarr Scout Bonus is the best! im going to spend 3mill on this suit.

NO.ONE.

Verdict? Minmatar win.

All humans are primates, genius.

3. Flame-bait refers to the topic title being sensationalist to troll for responses. The implication from the title is that the difference is stark; in reality the speeds are about equal. The principle of the matter is that scouts as a class are defined by speed, and up till now, even the slowest scout could claim that with a fair margin over the fastest assault. The issue isn't so much that the Minmatar assault is "faster" per se, but that it matches the speed if nothing else. The .2 difference the Gallente Scout has over the Minmatar Assault is noticeable.

A shift to 99% of the Amarr Scout's speed doesn't solve it, it just reverses the marginal difference. To fill the roll, they need to have at least that noticeable edge in speed over the fastest assault.

This is different from the role of most suits, because scouts are defined by their speed advantage. I disagree that jumping is a good proxy for speed or hp, and I loathe bunny-jumping stupidity in general. Strafe and move speed is useful regardless of your stamina, stamina is not.

4. I already answered that post.

You act like jumping is a cure-all.. it isn't. You're fixed in an easily targetable arc while in the air, strafing on the ground allows to change directions and play a second to second role in evading attacks. Running in straight lines isn't the only use of stamina, but closing the distance to objectives, etc. is why people mention it. I'd agree it's silly to be focused on running in straight lines. Being able to move faster without sprinting in general is more useful, 100% of the time.


Maximizing bonuses is a useful way to play, and getting the max hacking bonus can indeed be useful. However, letting a bonus cover for a module instead of fitting one is another way to play it. To suggest that getting flexibility out of your suits is a bad idea means YOU'RE doing it wrong. You also happened to be using this argument with the one class that arguably needs it least. The Amarr Scout already has the highest Stamina out of the box, and more and more stamina is questionably useful compared to something like faster hack speed.


As far as the low slots and speed, that's just an ignorant statement. The only low slot mods that impact movement speed, lower it. The best you can do is increase sprint speed, which has stacking penalties, high cost, and does jack for movement/strafe.

EDIT: I know I already made fun of you for not being able to do math, but I'd figure I'd make more explicit one of your earlier mistakes:

From the spreadsheet released:
Amarr Scout: 60 Shields, 170 Armor = 230 eHP
Existing Assault:
Minmatar Assault: 150 Shields, 135 Armor = 285 eHP

The base difference is 55hp, not 35. You were totally missing that... multiple times. As a side note, when you were making your comparison about the hp difference between heavy suits and how THAT would actually be appreciable... the hp difference here is ALSO larger than the difference between the Amarr Sentinel and Gallente/Caldari Sentinels (45hp difference there).

The amarr scout has 230 hp, not 250. The eHP advantage enjoyed by the minmatar assault if 55 EHP, not 35eHP. To put it another way, the minmatar suit has 124% the HP of the amarr scout. This is in conjunction with being faster.

Comparing the rest of the stats is a dishonest comparison. The original statement is about the MEDIUM frame being faster than the LIGHT frame. Something that should not happen. You could just as easily do a similar stat comparison with the gallente/minmatar/caldari scout and come out with even more outrageous numbers in advantage of the scouts, in addition to those scouts being faster as well.

The reason anyone would be upset is because the AMARR SCOUT IS GARBAGE. It has a bonus worth less than 1 basic module, it is slower than a suit that is an entire class larger, and there is NOTHING that it will be the best at.... or better than ANY of the suits at.

Oh and jumping is based upon a percentage of your stamina, not a set amount. This means there is no advantage to jumping for the amarr scout.

The amarr scout sucks.

End thread/

thats what u think

@Toby Flenderson:

This is in response to your % comparison on page 5. I don't care about all the flaming war in between, but it is disingenuous to compare the bonuses by percentage, because (A) a single module can overtake that gap and (B) 25% dampening bonus is better, in most everyone's opinion, than 66% stamina. The only advantage of the Amarr bonus is it can reach higher Stamina than any other scout, but at the expense of all 4 low mods. If the Amarr only goes 3 cardiac regs, then any of scout can overtake it.

A better way to compare suits it how easily they can both reach the same build. Assume all lvl 5 skills (core biotics, core armor, profile dampening, scan radius, cardiac regulation, armor repair, etc...)

Amarr (no mods)
EHP 287.5
Speed 5.51
Scan Distance33
Scan Profile 28.4
Armor Rep 0
Stamina 295
Stam Recovery 52.5

Gallente (no mods)
EHP 250
Speed 5.72
Scan Distance 41.3
Scan Profile 21.1
Armor Rep 3
Stamina 210
Stam Recovery 31.5

Obviously, there are pros and cons to each. But the strength of the cardiac reg module (compared to the Amarr bonus), the lack of overwhelming difference in EHP, and the Gallente passive armor rep all make is significantly easier to equalize the Gal to a generic Amarr build than to do the reverse. Amarr needs at LEAST 1 complex mod, 1 enhanced mod, and 1 basic mod all in low slots to replicate the Gal bonuses. The Gal needs only 1 enhanced mod and 1 basic mod to not only replicate the Amarr bonuses but to exceed them.

Amarr (1x Complex Dampener, 1 Enhanced Armor Rep, 1 Basic Range Amplifier)
EHP 287.5
Speed 5.51
Scan Distance 41.3
Scan Profile 21.2
Armor Rep 3
Stamina 295
Stam Recovery 52.5

Gallente (1x Basic Armor, 1x Enhanced Cardiac Regulator)
EHP 315
Speed 5.68
Scan Distance 41.3
Scan Profile 21.1
Armor Rep 3
Stamina 378
Stam Recovery 56.7

The Amarr build costs 83 CPU, 5 PG, and 3 low slots. The Gallente build costs 19 CPU, 6 PG, and 2 low slots. They have identical Scan Distance, Scan Profile, and Armor Reps, with nearly identical Stamina Recovery. But the Gallente has more EHP, more base Stamina, and more speed despite the plate. All for much much cheaper. And honestly, I would have gotten the builds closer together if I could have, but the smaller modules on the Gallente were already blowing away the Amarr.

All I did was match the bonuses of the other race. I didn't come up with a Gallente preferential build for this. To match the Amarr suit is pitifully easy, because the bonuses are so low. To match the Gallente is abusively hard, because they bonuses make it unique and hard to mimic.

If your not planning on specing into the suit than all further opinions you have on it are nullified. Yes im playing that card because people like you seem to not be able to grasp how easily the Amarr stats and bonuses are copied.

I'll give it to Toby Flenderson.

If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good.

BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences.

Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...)

---

On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months....

Toby and Lynn for some reason are just flagrantly anti-amarr and I can't figure it out.

IF you can not see that the amarr scout is garbage...

Also, jump/melee is based off of percentage of stamina, not amount. This means more stamina =/= more jumping.

219 shield

Haha if I'm happy with it why would I want it to be better just so other people will use it? It's not going to be FOTM like the rest of the suits have potential to be, but it's still a good suit.

Haha if I'm happy with it why would I want it to be better just so other people will use it? It's not going to be FOTM like the rest of the suits have potential to be, but it's still a good suit.

I have another way to look at your data, Toby. Yes, Amarr get 66% bonus to Stamina while Gallente get a meager 25% bonus to dampening. But you can't just compare percentages of different things together to say which one is bigger. You only did half of the necessary calculations. How do you know 1% Stamina is a bigger bonus than 1% Profile Dampening?

For example, 25% of Texas is substantially larger than 66% of Rhode Island. You need to have a conversion in order to compare different things. So how does Stamina + Stamina Regen compare to Profile Dampening + Scan Radius? Which suit is Texas and which suit is Rhode Island?

Well, luckily CCP has given us the conversion. They gave us modules that are supposedly balanced with the game economy, so we know exactly how much CCP values 1% of Stamina and how much they value 1% Profile.

AMARR BONUS:

Complex Cardiac Regulator = 100% ( Stamina and Stamina Regen Rate ) = 3150 ISK

1% ( Stamina and Stamina Regen Rate ) = 31.5 ISK

Amarr Bonus = 25% ( Stamina and Stamina Regen ) = 25 x 31.5 = 787.5 ISK

GALLENTE BONUS

Complex Profile Dampener = 45% Profile Reduction = 3615 ISK

1% Profile Reduction = 80 ISK

Complex Range Amplifier = 25% Radius Increase = 3420 ISK

1% Radius Increase = 136.8 ISK

Gallente Bonus = 25% Profile Reduction + 25% Radius Increase = 25 * 80 + 25 * 136 = 5428.3 ISK

Holy crap! The Gallente bonus, when directly compared to the Amarr bonus, costs 689% more ISK! Just by running the Gal Scout, you get 689% more bonus FOR FREE. Who in their right mind would choose the Amarr scout? Can you actually still argue that this racial ability is worthwhile?