|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
246
   |
Posted - 2014.02.07 04:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:I don't care what anyone thinks, its just bullshit that an assaults suit base speed is faster than any scouts it just defeats the purpose of being a scout and should be change ASAP
Maybe wait until the suit is released before trying to change currently existing suits?
Anyway, this is pretty ridiculous to say. Consider the advantages of the minmatar assault (M) vs. the amarr scout (A)GǪ
M > A:
EHP by 35
Slots by 1
Speed by 0.05 m/s
CPU by 10
Melee by 30
Armor repair rate 1hp/s
A > M:
Equipment by 1
Shield rechange by 12 hp/s
S.R. Delay by 2 seconds
D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds
Scan Range by 10m
Scan Profile by 15
Scan Precision by 10
Stamina by 50
Stamina Recovery by 20
I've chosen not to include role bonuses for simplicity, as I was pretty sure my point was made already by the above comparison.
Take note that not only are the M advantages less important/practical (melee, 1hp/s, speed, etc.), they are also extremely small improvements from the amarr suit. If you take a look at some of the A advantages, I'd argue that just about all of these are more important and I wouldn't trade any of them for anything in the M > A column. They are also clearly much higher increases (sometimes even doubled that of the minmatar suit).
This being said, I don't see how someone in their right mind would be upset over a 0.05 m/s speed advantage given to the minmatar assault considering the massive advantages given to the amarr scout.
|
Toby Flenderson
research lab
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 05:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
ugg reset wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:ugg reset wrote:Awry Barux wrote:Also, Amarr scout bonus is trash compared to other bonuses. Other suits receive the equivalent of a complex module or more from the suit bonuses, while the Amarr scout gets less than a basic cardiac reg. Scouts already have insane endurance. the amarr suit will compound this and leave room for other mods. don't sell it short. How many times does this need to be repeated? 5% per lvl to stamina and regen is worth less than a basic moduleThat is amarr scout's ONLY bonus. The rest of the suits get the equivalent of AT LEAST 3 mods worth of bonuses (1 complex, and 2+ basic). This is why the stamina bonus being the ONLY bonus is absolutely garbage. 
I'm pretty sure that people pick a suit that has a bonus that compliments their play style. It then makes sense to continue to add modules that increase this stat even further. Add a complex module of the corresponding scout skills to that suit (i.e. cardiac regulator to the amarr, profile dampening to the gallente, hacking speed to the minmatar, etc.) and you'll see that, compared to any other suit using the same module, the percentage increase is highest for the Amarr scout's stamina bonus.
For example, consider the bonuses of the Amarr scout vs. Gallente scout while each adds a complex module of their own type.
For the Amarr scoutGǪ (Consider module skill passive multiplier as well in calculation)
Effective Stamina = Base * Bonus * Module = 225 * 1.25 * 2.1 = 590.625
Effective Recovery = Base * Bonus * Module = 40 * 1.25 * 2.1 = 105
For the Gallente scout
Effective Stamina = Base * Module = 200 * 2.1 = 420
Effective Recovery = Base * Module = 30 * 2.1 = 63
Now look at the percentage increase from using the Amarr scout over the GallenteGǪ
Stamina % increase = (difference in suits)/Gallente stats = (590.625 - 420)/420 = 0.40625 (40.625% increase)
Recovery % increase = (difference in suits)/Gallente stats = (105 - 63)/63 = 0.666GǪ (66.666GǪ% increase)
For the Gallente scout
Range = Base * Bonus * Skill * Module = 20 * 1.25 *1.5 * 1.45 = 54.375
Profile = Base * Bonus * Skill * Module = 35 * 0.75 *0.9 * 0.75 = 17.719
For the Amarr scout
Range = Base * Skill * Module = 20 *1.5 * 1.45 = 43.5
Profile = Base * Skill * Module = 35 *0.9 * 0.75 = 23.625
Range % increase = (difference in suits)/Amarr stats = (54.375 - 43.5)/43.5 = 0.25 (25% increase)
Profile % increase = (difference in suits)/Amarr stats = (17.719 - 23.625)/23.625 = -0.25GǪ (25% increase)
Note that for the profile reduction, we count a negative decimal as a percentage reduction, which is considered a "positive" increase in efficiency.
As you can see, when considering the advantage of using the Amarr scout suit with a corresponding complex module (which I'm sure most people usually tend to do) is much higher than using a Gallente scout with a corresponding complex module.
I did the rest of the calculations a while back but never posted them (obviously tedious). I'm fairly certain that the 110% increase that a complex cardiac catalyzer mixed with an already 25% suit bonus multiplying by the highest base value of a drop suit stat will beat any other increase from any scout suit bonus with a complex module.
This is why I hate when I read people complaining about the Amarr scout using the "oh well the others get a free complex module when this thing doesn't even get a basic". Clearly, when you stack a complex module on top of a drop suit bonus, the Amarr scout shines as far as it's effective advantage over the other scouts.
|
Toby Flenderson
research lab
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 05:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:I don't care what anyone thinks, its just bullshit that an assaults suit base speed is faster than any scouts it just defeats the purpose of being a scout and should be change ASAP Maybe wait until the suit is released before trying to change currently existing suits? Anyway, this is pretty ridiculous to say. Consider the advantages of the minmatar assault (M) vs. the amarr scout (A)GǪ M > A:EHP by 35 Slots by 1 Speed by 0.05 m/s CPU by 10 Melee by 30 Armor repair rate 1hp/s A > M:Equipment by 1 Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds Scan Range by 10m Scan Profile by 15 Scan Precision by 10 Stamina by 50 Stamina Recovery by 20 I've chosen not to include role bonuses for simplicity, as I was pretty sure my point was made already by the above comparison. Take note that not only are the M advantages less important/practical (melee, 1hp/s, speed, etc.), they are also extremely small improvements from the amarr suit. If you take a look at some of the A advantages, I'd argue that just about all of these are more important and I wouldn't trade any of them for anything in the M > A column. They are also clearly much higher increases (sometimes even doubled that of the minmatar suit). This being said, I don't see how someone in their right mind would be upset over a 0.05 m/s speed advantage given to the minmatar assault considering the massive advantages given to the amarr scout. Honestly I didn't even know it was that small of a difference when I read that I just assumed it was by like 3-5 of a tenth faster but know that someone's shown the math I really don't care anymore. But what is just absolute **** is the amarr bonus.
Hahaha I just posted more math explaining why the bonus is amazing. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 05:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:
Hahaha I just posted more math explaining why the bonus is amazing.
AHAH SWEET!I will be looking forward to squadding up with you an YOUR PROTO AMARR SCOUT , see how well it fares vs my Gal scout ok? :3 (YOU ARE , after all, going to use the Amarr Scout right? Since the bonus is sooo amazing there is no other suit that can compare...?)
I'm not saying it's better than any other suit, I'm saying that the claims that it's bonus is very small in comparison with the other 3 scout suit bonuses is false when you consider the extremely likely probability of "tanking" the bonus with a module.
I prefer the current Gallente scout and already have the range skills maxed out and planned on becoming a stealth/radar beacon because that's my play style most of the time. I have the kin kats maxed as well for my minmatar scout if speed tanking becomes viable again.
The decision regarding which suit to choose is not dependent on the stats as much as my play style. That being said, a slower scout is not my style, but it may ultimately be able to travel more effectively than the rest overall.
I see that you're trying to trap me into admitting that I will probably not choose the Amarr scout and implying that my previous post does not reflect how I feel about the suits myself. Neither are true. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 06:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:
M > A:
EHP by 35
Slots by 1
Speed by 0.05 m/s
CPU by 10
Melee by 30
Armor repair rate 1hp/s
A > M:
Equipment by 1
Shield rechange by 12 hp/s
S.R. Delay by 2 seconds
D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds
Scan Range by 10m
Scan Profile by 15
Scan Precision by 10
Stamina by 50
Stamina Recovery by 20
This being said, I don't see how someone in their right mind would be upset over a 0.05 m/s speed advantage given to the minmatar assault considering the massive advantages given to the amarr scout.
Three of the listed Amarr "advantages" over the Minmatar are shield related: Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds The Amarr Scout has the lowest base shields in the entire game, of any suit, and role, anywhere. Period. At Proto, it has 2 high slots with which to boost that. The Amarr is not going to get much mileage out that "bonus" against the Minmatar suit. The HP difference you refer to as "small" is also larger than the hp bonus the Amarr enjoys over the next highest ehp scouts. So, the extent to which it is meaningless, is only as meaningless as the advantage the Amarr enjoys over the Gallente or Caldari (the former of which has innate armor reps at 3 per second, the latter of which can leverage the scout shield bonuses more). The single slot advantage of the assault allows this difference to be exploited to an even larger degree. The fact that the speed difference is marginal is flame-bait, but the problem would be just as annoying if their speed was the exact same. The problem is the slowest scout being the at the same speed OR slower than the fastest assault. The lower scout hp typically indicates a need to speed tank or generally be "gone" to evade the slower but more powerful suits. The Amarr lacks any strafing advantage vs. an Minmatar Assault. The fact he can sprint longer (at the same speed) will make a difference... sometimes? But those few extra seconds of sprinting are largely irrelevant in the sense of combat viability, and not marked enough to set it apart in usefulness as a scout. The most salient bonuses the Amarr scout DOES have are the profile detection-related ones, but those are the same (or BETTER) across all scouts and the Amarr is SOL when it comes to the other scout strengths at dealing with other suits, especially the Minmatar assault which has a speed and hp advantage on him. '
1. 2 Complex shield extenders with passive skills gives the Amarr scout 281.5 shield. As far as getting the mileage out of it, this is what I generally have on my scouts ATM and it's plenty for a great buffer between engagements. The regen rate is nearly twice that of the minmatar assault. The only thing that the minmatar has is amount of shield, which IMO, past 300 doesn't mean nearly as much recharge delay/rate especially when you're talking about 4 extra seconds and nearly half the recharge rate.
2. I'm not talking about other scouts. I'm only comparing the M.A. and A.S. If a a sentinel had 100 more armor than another it wouldn't mean much considering they tend to break 1,000 ehp. This 100 would be a crazy increase for a scout but it doesn't mean anything when comparing sentinels. I would much rather have the natural armor reps from the gallente scout but that doesn't matter either, the point is 35 base ehp is hardly worth bragging about, especially going from a light to a medium assault suit that is meant for frontline action. As far as slots go, low slots are more useful for ehp tanking. I'm not sure on the math but I'd be willing to bet that the amarr scout could tank as much or more health than the minmatar assault.
3. I honestly don't even know what flame-bait means but if you're claiming that it's the principle of the matter (that the speed should be limited from tier to tier) then I'm sure you wouldn't mind the assault getting pushed back to 99% of the Amarr scout's speed. This would abide by this arbitrary restriction and make virtually no difference in playability, hence my point that the speed advantage is worthless. If the HP was significantly lower, then I'd agree with you, but it isn't. The minmatar assault is more like a scout than an assault in terms of speed and health, yet they're not expected to run from other "more powerful" suits. Strafing matters, I agree, but not 0.05 m/s. The stamina allows the scout to continue jumping in a CQ fight against anything and still have time to run and dodge and jump some more. This is why I'm killed the most as a scout: Not able to escape. Current scouts without regulators can jump a couple times and run around a nearby corner if they have full stamina. In those situations, stamina is gold, not necessarily speed.
4. Again I'm not concerned with the other scouts, as this thread is about the comparison between the Amarr scout and the Minmatar assault. If you want to see some interesting math with regards to other scouts, check out my last few posts. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 06:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:
This is why I hate when I read people complaining about the Amarr scout using the "oh well the others get a free complex module when this thing doesn't even get a basic". Clearly, when you stack a complex module on top of a drop suit bonus, the Amarr scout shines as far as it's effective advantage over the other scouts.
No, it's still *****, because you're ignoring the usefulness of said bonuses, and the practicality inherent in using a complex module or not. A bonus to something like dampening is very useful in the sense that you're almost required to use X modules if you want to evade active scanners. So, getting a free complex dampener (and a standard range amp to boot) is extremely useful in freeing up a slot, as you often NEED that higher tier dampener to get some value out of dampening in the first place. Scanners on the proto end are quite powerful, and rather common as well. The stamina comparison shows a clear numerical difference, but it ignores practicality. In terms of sprinting time, the Gallente can sprint for 42 seconds in your example, the Amarr can sprint about a minute. Yes, this is longer with the Amarr. This isn't a concrete need value-wise like the profile dampening though, where you need to hit X value to avoid scanners. Ask yourself how often do you need to sprint a minute in the game? In how many instances, when covering lots of ground, would running say... 42 seconds be just as good? Most of them. Actually, with maxed biotics, you rarely even need a stamina mod to begin with. You can close the distance to objectives fast/quickly enough with a kincat, and the speed is often more efficient and useful. Let's not forget the Gallente suit is also FASTER, and will cover more ground in those 42 seconds than the Amarr will in the first 42 of its sprint. So, the Amarr already sacrifices part of that stamina "bonus" to compensate for being slow. That's why the Amarr bonus is crap. Aside from the fact we're comparing "Less than a STD Module" and "Complex + a STD Module" in terms of bonus.
Do you even jump? Seriously people are so focused on running in straight lines when most of the time ability to jump around your target (especially heavies) is what keeps a scout alive. I'd say most of my deaths in engagements as a scout arise from not being able to escape/jump to safety.
If you have a current minmatar logi and you want to run it as a hacker, you don't just take the bonus and run with that. You skill into code breakers and load it up so that you can insta-hack. In this way you're maximizing your advantage. If you're not doing this with your suits, you're doing something wrong.
As far as practicality is concerned, I value stamina over dampening in the current build. No one is going to be complaining about getting scanned when they can run cloaks and avoid most of them completely, but that's beside the point. It's stupid to think that just because the advantage you get from biopics isn't either completely useful or completely useless as is dampening, that it doesn't matter. Think about how often fast you can use stamina and think about how fast the Amarr will recover. It's almost erasing the stamina restriction for the drop suit with a complex module. You can get it all back in seconds and just run for another minute. This is a huge difference in the scope of an entire match. Say you play a 15 minute match as the amarr scout. You could sprint for a minute every 6 seconds. This means that every 10 minutes of sprint requires 1 minute of rest. So out of an entire match you will spend less than 1.5 minutes not running. I'm not even sure you could fill that time with reloading.
This reminded me that I forgot to include the biopics passive skills in my calculations. Either way it will effect the Amarr scout more than the rest, so it would've only exaggerated my point.
As far as speed goesGǪ The suit has 4 low slotsGǪ Use them. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 06:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:
I'm not saying it's better than any other suit, I'm saying that the claims that it's bonus is very small in comparison with the other 3 scout suit bonuses is false when you consider the extremely likely probability of "tanking" the bonus with a module.
I prefer the current Gallente scout and already have the range skills maxed out and planned on becoming a stealth/radar beacon because that's my play style most of the time. I have the kin kats maxed as well for my minmatar scout if speed tanking becomes viable again.
The decision regarding which suit to choose is not dependent on the stats as much as my play style. That being said, a slower scout is not my style, but it may ultimately be able to travel more effectively than the rest overall.
I see that you're trying to trap me into admitting that I will probably not choose the Amarr scout and implying that my previous post does not reflect how I feel about the suits myself. Neither are true.
Look bro. Facts are facts. Stamina is fun, but unless i get something like 100% Melee damage to go with it, its useless.I wouldn't use the Amarr scout even if it had 200% Stamina and Stamina recovery per level. Why? The same reason why YOU wont spend a single SP on the damn suit. Because it sucks.Now stop trying to convince people who ACTUALLY WANT TO SPEC IN THE SUIT , that its good, if your not even going to use it yourself. ok? STamina is a sh**- bonus doesnt matter how you try to cover it:+100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25%Profile dampening +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% Scan Radius +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% NK Damage +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% Hacking speed +100% Stamina and Stamina regen < 25% Scan precision GOT IT?good.
Trying to level with me with some "facts" and then following with "stamina is useless" is ridiculous.
Read my posts about my opinion on the suit. I may or may not get it. You're not going to trick me into skilling into it to prove to some random person on the forums that I really do mean what I'm saying about it.
Clearly I don't think it sucks, it just may not be my cup of tea.
Again, didn't say I wasn't going to use it. I could say the world about heavy suits but it wouldn't make me a hypocrite for not using them. It just means it's not how I play. That's why they made more than one suit: To give people options to adhere to their play style. I really think this is an extremely simple concept, but you seem to just not get it.
Also, for the record, why would i try to convince people who already want to use the suit to use it?
Haha, well, since you've clearly asserted your opinion as fact, I guess by the rules of logic, "i got it".
Let me try nowGǪ You're "facts" are really opinions. Please get it. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 06:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:
Hahaha I just posted more math explaining why the bonus is amazing.
AHAH SWEET!I will be looking forward to squadding up with you an YOUR PROTO AMARR SCOUT , see how well it fares vs my Gal scout ok? :3 (YOU ARE , after all, going to use the Amarr Scout right? Since the bonus is sooo amazing there is no other suit that can compare...?) I'm not saying it's better than any other suit, I'm saying that the claims that it's bonus is very small in comparison with the other 3 scout suit bonuses is false when you consider the extremely likely probability of "tanking" the bonus with a module. I prefer the current Gallente scout and already have the range skills maxed out and planned on becoming a stealth/radar beacon because that's my play style most of the time. I have the kin kats maxed as well for my minmatar scout if speed tanking becomes viable again. The decision regarding which suit to choose is not dependent on the stats as much as my play style. That being said, a slower scout is not my style, but it may ultimately be able to travel more effectively than the rest overall. I see that you're trying to trap me into admitting that I will probably not choose the Amarr scout and implying that my previous post does not reflect how I feel about the suits myself. Neither are true. I just don't understand how you people don't understand its the slowest scout what good would running longer do if you run slow as ****? Its has latterly ONE damn bonus that I could surpass with a basic mod. But that's not worst part I could get past all that if the bonus wasn't so **** like if I didn't care so much about aesthetics I'd be rocking Minmatar gear all day everyday.
They should really just replace the suit bonus with this quoteGǪ "Virtually remove stamina restriction with a complex cardiac regulator". It also has 4 low slots. If you're so sore about it being slow, make it fast. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 06:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:
Hahaha I just posted more math explaining why the bonus is amazing.
AHAH SWEET!I will be looking forward to squadding up with you an YOUR PROTO AMARR SCOUT , see how well it fares vs my Gal scout ok? :3 (YOU ARE , after all, going to use the Amarr Scout right? Since the bonus is sooo amazing there is no other suit that can compare...?) I'm not saying it's better than any other suit, I'm saying that the claims that it's bonus is very small in comparison with the other 3 scout suit bonuses is false when you consider the extremely likely probability of "tanking" the bonus with a module. I prefer the current Gallente scout and already have the range skills maxed out and planned on becoming a stealth/radar beacon because that's my play style most of the time. I have the kin kats maxed as well for my minmatar scout if speed tanking becomes viable again. The decision regarding which suit to choose is not dependent on the stats as much as my play style. That being said, a slower scout is not my style, but it may ultimately be able to travel more effectively than the rest overall. I see that you're trying to trap me into admitting that I will probably not choose the Amarr scout and implying that my previous post does not reflect how I feel about the suits myself. Neither are true. I just don't understand how you people don't understand its the slowest scout what good would running longer do if you run slow as ****? Its has latterly ONE damn bonus that I could surpass with a basic mod. But that's not worst part I could get past all that if the bonus wasn't so **** like if I didn't care so much about aesthetics I'd be rocking Minmatar gear all day everyday. Ehem...... you are NOT telling me you are even THINKING of using this piece of crap of scout suit right?
I mean if i get an infantry respec i'll get it to walk around the warbarge but tahts it.
I'll be running (AN obviously superior) GAL scout. With 1 ENH Armor plate, 1 cx Profile Dam mod (for maximum dampening) 1 Complex armor rep module for a total of 9.25 repair per second and a complex range amplifier. This next to whatever Precision enhancer i can fit.
boooooold |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
248
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 21:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'll respond individually later when I'm not on break at work but as many of you pointed out my math was incorrect on some of these figures and I've realized why. I mistook the melee damage column for the shield column of the spreadsheet. Honest mistake and if anyone disagrees then I don't really care because they would be stupid enough to think I would try to pull a fast one on an entire thread using fake stats. So the base stat who comparison is off and is 55?i would agree this bumps the ehp advantage from negligible to noticeable. The other mistake was assuming the passive armor/shield skills stack multiplicative on top of the total armor/shield on the drosuit. This will change the shield figure on the Amarr drop suit as was point out. While this is a decrease worth pointing out, it's still as much as my current suits have and I stand by what I said about it being a good buffer.
I'll respond to the rest of you later tonight but to whoever called me a primate you can go **** yourself. Anyone can make honest mistakes in assumptions/spreadsheets, it doesn't mean anything other than they were mistaken about how a skill in a video game stacks and that reading huge spreadsheets on a cell phone can lead to misreading the cells. |
|
|
Toby Flenderson
research lab
248
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 23:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:@ Toby Flenderson
Thats the thing smartass.
The suit is NO ONE'S CUP OF TEA...........
Boldboldbold. You really don't understand what opinions are. I'm struggling to take you seriously but it's getting very difficult to read past the bold arrogance. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
248
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 02:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:
Verdict? Minmatar win.
1. Read my post. I said that I didn't include suit bonuses for simplicity. If I did then the stamina stats would've been much higher on the Amarr side but you conveniently ignored that. I was basing it off of 30 vs. 18 which is just about right in between rounding up and rounding down from 33% to double. Either way, you're ignoring the point that the Amarr has just better regen than even a proto assault.
I misunderstood how the passive skill worked and addressed it in an earlier post. You got me, I made a mistake. Moving on, my argument still stands. The two shield extenders would still make a great buffer, especially if it comes back in the time it takes for another suit to chase you around corners, assuming you're running and jumping out of the gun fight if need be. I don't know if you've noticed how quick TTK is, but 10 seconds to wait for your shield to even start coming back can easily lead to being picked off by another enemy or a returning Amarr scout. I don't see how you can just ignore the difference in delays/recharge just because the minmatar can tank more shield.
Feel free to double check the rest of my math, I encourage it. I'd rather be corrected than be accused of making a dishonest case for the Amarr scout. Just because I made a mistake doesn't negate everything I'm saying though. I concede that the correct shield calculation/ehp comparison makes a better case for the ehp advantage to be more significant. It's still, IMO, not the most important thing to have in a suit.
I wouldn't run a scout like a tank so you can talk about stacking complex plates on it all day but I'd much rather just rely on an SMG and sneak attacks. It's funny that you seemed to have taken this argument into a "the minmatar assault is WAY better at being a tank than a scout" when it started as a speed thing but whatever. When I can take down heavies with a toxin smg and an advanced scout suit just by jumping around/over them, I don't need 1000+ ehp. I'm not trying to brag, but it can and is being done by more than just me. This leads me to my next point about valuing jumping.
People say it's so easy to hit people that are jumping and I agree if they are further away. This is not the case when someone charges straight at you with a weapon that's meant to spray and pray as you dance around them in circles. It simply works. I use the agility to my advantage but once you're out of sprint you're just as slow as the rest. Strafing is not necessarily superior to jump shotting IMO. It puts you on an equal playing field with a suit that may have 2-3 times your ehp. What those suits can't do is jump over your head or past you, causing you to have to 180 to being firing again. I'd consider the "you can track their trajectory when they jump" argument more if it were actually true in my experiences but it's simply not.
You've ignored equipment completely. Scouts can also logi spam to an extent. Also get past many scanners. I'm going to move onto another post, I have a lot of people to respond to. Feel free to pick at my math again, but honestly the ehp was the least of my concerns considering I expected it to be much higher considering we were comparing a light to a medium suit. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
248
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 02:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:
I'll respond to the rest of you later tonight but to whoever called me a primate you can go **** yourself. Anyone can make honest mistakes in assumptions/spreadsheets, it doesn't mean anything other than they were mistaken about how a skill in a video game stacks and that reading huge spreadsheets on a cell phone can lead to misreading the cells.
All humans are primates, genius.
I see what you did there, you made it seem like an insult until I called you out on it and then tried to make it seem like just another factual statement about the universeGǪ Completely nullifying your insult to begin withGǪ Hmmm. You're really good at comebacks. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
248
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 02:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:
3. I honestly don't even know what flame-bait means but if you're claiming that it's the principle of the matter (that the speed should be limited from tier to tier) then I'm sure you wouldn't mind the assault getting pushed back to 99% of the Amarr scout's speed. This would abide by this arbitrary restriction and make virtually no difference in playability, hence my point that the speed advantage is worthless. If the HP was significantly lower, then I'd agree with you, but it isn't. The minmatar assault is more like a scout than an assault in terms of speed and health, yet they're not expected to run from other "more powerful" suits. Strafing matters, I agree, but not 0.05 m/s. The stamina allows the scout to continue jumping in a CQ fight against anything and still have time to run and dodge and jump some more. This is why I'm killed the most as a scout: Not able to escape. Current scouts without regulators can jump a couple times and run around a nearby corner if they have full stamina. In those situations, stamina is gold, not necessarily speed.
4. Again I'm not concerned with the other scouts, as this thread is about the comparison between the Amarr scout and the Minmatar assault. If you want to see some interesting math with regards to other scouts, check out my last few posts.
3. Flame-bait refers to the topic title being sensationalist to troll for responses. The implication from the title is that the difference is stark; in reality the speeds are about equal. The principle of the matter is that scouts as a class are defined by speed, and up till now, even the slowest scout could claim that with a fair margin over the fastest assault. The issue isn't so much that the Minmatar assault is "faster" per se, but that it matches the speed if nothing else. The .2 difference the Gallente Scout has over the Minmatar Assault is noticeable. A shift to 99% of the Amarr Scout's speed doesn't solve it, it just reverses the marginal difference. To fill the roll, they need to have at least that noticeable edge in speed over the fastest assault. This is different from the role of most suits, because scouts are defined by their speed advantage. I disagree that jumping is a good proxy for speed or hp, and I loathe bunny-jumping stupidity in general. Strafe and move speed is useful regardless of your stamina, stamina is not. 4. I already answered that post.
You completely missed my pointGǪ Either the similar speeds are a problem or they're not. I claim they're not. You obviously think they are, otherwise you wouldn't be complaining so much about it. This leads us to two possible reasonsGǪ
1. The speed affects the playability of either suit. By this, I mean that if either suit were given a 0.05m/s buff/nerf, people would notice. This is just ridiculous and untrue. No one would notice the difference, and even if someone could, they should not be complaining about something so minuscule.
This leaves us with reason 2GǪ
2. The principle that scouts should be faster than assaults. I'm saying I'd be perfectly ok to nerd the Amarr scout to 99% of the Minmatar assault speed. If this were to happen then the second argument would be nullified and we would live in virtually the same universe where they're basically the same speed and no one can tell. But, after this nerf, no one using the 2nd argument could complain about it further.
This completely solves the problem for argument 2. If you want a noticeable difference, pick a different scout suit, or make this one faster with kin cats. You can't have everything (speed, stealth, regen, etc.). Pick what's important to you and stop complaining.
Strafe speed is good for suits that can't afford to jump past enemies. If you disagree that jumping makes you a harder target to hit close range then we are at an impasse on that subject. I understand that speed is important but the Amarr scout is still fast enough to do what scouts can do, and if they're not, they just sacrifice a low slot (easy, since they have 4) to bring them back up to other scouts. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
249
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 03:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:
You act like jumping is a cure-all.. it isn't. You're fixed in an easily targetable arc while in the air, strafing on the ground allows to change directions and play a second to second role in evading attacks. Running in straight lines isn't the only use of stamina, but closing the distance to objectives, etc. is why people mention it. I'd agree it's silly to be focused on running in straight lines. Being able to move faster without sprinting in general is more useful, 100% of the time.
Maximizing bonuses is a useful way to play, and getting the max hacking bonus can indeed be useful. However, letting a bonus cover for a module instead of fitting one is another way to play it. To suggest that getting flexibility out of your suits is a bad idea means YOU'RE doing it wrong. You also happened to be using this argument with the one class that arguably needs it least. The Amarr Scout already has the highest Stamina out of the box, and more and more stamina is questionably useful compared to something like faster hack speed.
As far as the low slots and speed, that's just an ignorant statement. The only low slot mods that impact movement speed, lower it. The best you can do is increase sprint speed, which has stacking penalties, high cost, and does jack for movement/strafe.
EDIT: I know I already made fun of you for not being able to do math, but I'd figure I'd make more explicit one of your earlier mistakes:
From the spreadsheet released:
Amarr Scout: 60 Shields, 170 Armor = 230 eHP
Existing Assault:
Minmatar Assault: 150 Shields, 135 Armor = 285 eHP
The base difference is 55hp, not 35. You were totally missing that... multiple times. As a side note, when you were making your comparison about the hp difference between heavy suits and how THAT would actually be appreciable... the hp difference here is ALSO larger than the difference between the Amarr Sentinel and Gallente/Caldari Sentinels (45hp difference there).
Spoiler: Clipped original post to make roomGǪ
If you're going to take every chance you can to point out a mistake I've made then I may as well reference Anchorman and laugh at " Being able to move faster without sprinting in general is more useful, 100% of the time". Being able to always sprint on average makes you faster than any other suit in the sense that you can always be sprinting. They have to catch you in the 6 seconds in between every minute of spiriting to be firing at a target that isn't walking. This gives the Amarr scout an effective speed advantage against any suit who doesn't have as much stamina as they do at the time of the engagement.
People really need to learn how to read. I never said i was or wasn't getting this suit. I won't do it out of peer pressure but if I don't it will be a mixture of factors such as the millions of skills I have into the scan range/profile/dampening and kin cats. These would compliment the other scouts more and to use the Amarr scout as I have described would require skilling into shotguns and cardiac regulators to take advantage of the suit. Just because I don't typically use the current scouts that way does not make my points in any way invalid or dishonest. I reference the heavy suit analogy againGǪ By this logic, anyone who has ever thought that a heavy suit could be useful in CQC but didn't skill into them would be a hypocrite for acknowledging the benefits of the suit but not skilling into heavy suits/weapons right away.
I understand your point about modules but this game has turned into tanking all across the board. Tanks use multiple hardeners or repairs, logis tank damage mods and armor, caldaris shield tank, and scouts used to speed tank. That's what people do all the time. To not take advantage of an opportunity to make a suit incredibly specialized when you can can be a mistake. No one goes for one of each module to make their character more balanced, they try and play on it's strengths and push it to the limits to overcome other people's strengths. Perfect example is a shield tanker engaging a DM tanker. You don't half ass it because most of the time if you do, you get killed.
Just saw that you've drawn attention to me "not picking the suit" again in this post. I've explained my position multiple times. Stop it.
The upper limit is virtually never having to worry about sprinting/jumping around corners if you're being shot. This is incredibly useful and if we disagree then I don't know what to say.
The bonus also effects the recharge rate. 10 seconds can mean the difference between getting around a corner or not. The next time you're playing count 10 seconds worth of sprinting and try to imagine not having that every time you go to use it. It's enough of a bonus to notice the difference. We're not talking about what's "enough" as the normal hack speed is "enough" for everyone who isn't running a minmatar scout or code breakers. It's about excelling in a stat, not getting just enough to move around the map slightly more effectively than medium suits.
That's cute, about the movement speed and low slots. I forgot that when people talk about speed tanking they mean strafe speedGǪ No. Sprint speed is clearly more important and they make modules especially for that. If you want the fastest scout, don't get the Amarr, plain and simple. If you want the most mobile suit, pick the Amarr scout and put a kin cat on it.
Clearly I missed it multiple times because I referenced my own work. It's like starting a math problem copied incorrectly and arriving at a logical response but having someone tell you later you messed up 10 times, 1 for each step you used the wrong value.
I made up a hypothetical heavy suits with a difference of 100 hp to demonstrate a point, so I don't know why you're referencing real suits and implying that I was making a claim about them. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
249
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 03:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:I don't care what anyone thinks, its just bullshit that an assaults suit base speed is faster than any scouts it just defeats the purpose of being a scout and should be change ASAP Maybe wait until the suit is released before trying to change currently existing suits? Anyway, this is pretty ridiculous to say. Consider the advantages of the minmatar assault (M) vs. the amarr scout (A)GǪ M > A:EHP by 35 Slots by 1 Speed by 0.05 m/s CPU by 10 Melee by 30 Armor repair rate 1hp/s A > M:Equipment by 1 Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds Scan Range by 10m Scan Profile by 15 Scan Precision by 10 Stamina by 50 Stamina Recovery by 20 I've chosen not to include role bonuses for simplicity, as I was pretty sure my point was made already by the above comparison. Take note that not only are the M advantages less important/practical (melee, 1hp/s, speed, etc.), they are also extremely small improvements from the amarr suit. If you take a look at some of the A advantages, I'd argue that just about all of these are more important and I wouldn't trade any of them for anything in the M > A column. They are also clearly much higher increases (sometimes even doubled that of the minmatar suit). This being said, I don't see how someone in their right mind would be upset over a 0.05 m/s speed advantage given to the minmatar assault considering the massive advantages given to the amarr scout. The amarr scout has 230 hp, not 250. The eHP advantage enjoyed by the minmatar assault if 55 EHP, not 35eHP. To put it another way, the minmatar suit has 124% the HP of the amarr scout. This is in conjunction with being faster. Comparing the rest of the stats is a dishonest comparison. The original statement is about the MEDIUM frame being faster than the LIGHT frame. Something that should not happen. You could just as easily do a similar stat comparison with the gallente/minmatar/caldari scout and come out with even more outrageous numbers in advantage of the scouts, in addition to those scouts being faster as well. The reason anyone would be upset is because the AMARR SCOUT IS GARBAGE. It has a bonus worth less than 1 basic module, it is slower than a suit that is an entire class larger, and there is NOTHING that it will be the best at.... or better than ANY of the suits at. Oh and jumping is based upon a percentage of your stamina, not a set amount. This means there is no advantage to jumping for the amarr scout.
I admitted to misreading the spreadsheet so yeah I made an error in the hp comparison. +1 for catching this without insisting I was trying to intentionally mislead the other readers.
The comparison is not dishonest, but maybe irrelevant if you insist on calling it something "bad". I think I've addressed that light suits being faster than assaults shouldn't be a ridiculously strict rule in drop suit design especially when comparing the fastest medium and slowest light suits and only getting a 0.05m/s difference. Again, my solution is just trade the speeds and we can move on.
You can jump until you run out of stamina and have it all back in 6 seconds to do what you will with it if you have the complex regulator. No other suit can say the same. I'm not saying that you need to jump constantly with this suit, I'm saying that you will be free to outmaneuver other suits without having to worry about if you have enough stamina to escape. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
249
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 03:59:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ivan Avogadro wrote:@Toby Flenderson:
This is in response to your % comparison on page 5. I don't care about all the flaming war in between, but it is disingenuous to compare the bonuses by percentage, because (A) a single module can overtake that gap and (B) 25% dampening bonus is better, in most everyone's opinion, than 66% stamina. The only advantage of the Amarr bonus is it can reach higher Stamina than any other scout, but at the expense of all 4 low mods. If the Amarr only goes 3 cardiac regs, then any of scout can overtake it.
A better way to compare suits it how easily they can both reach the same build. Assume all lvl 5 skills (core biotics, core armor, profile dampening, scan radius, cardiac regulation, armor repair, etc...)
Amarr (no mods)
EHP 287.5
Speed 5.51
Scan Distance33
Scan Profile 28.4
Armor Rep 0
Stamina 295
Stam Recovery 52.5
Gallente (no mods)
EHP 250
Speed 5.72
Scan Distance 41.3
Scan Profile 21.1
Armor Rep 3
Stamina 210
Stam Recovery 31.5
Obviously, there are pros and cons to each. But the strength of the cardiac reg module (compared to the Amarr bonus), the lack of overwhelming difference in EHP, and the Gallente passive armor rep all make is significantly easier to equalize the Gal to a generic Amarr build than to do the reverse. Amarr needs at LEAST 1 complex mod, 1 enhanced mod, and 1 basic mod all in low slots to replicate the Gal bonuses. The Gal needs only 1 enhanced mod and 1 basic mod to not only replicate the Amarr bonuses but to exceed them.
Amarr (1x Complex Dampener, 1 Enhanced Armor Rep, 1 Basic Range Amplifier)
EHP 287.5
Speed 5.51
Scan Distance 41.3
Scan Profile 21.2
Armor Rep 3
Stamina 295
Stam Recovery 52.5
Gallente (1x Basic Armor, 1x Enhanced Cardiac Regulator)
EHP 315
Speed 5.68
Scan Distance 41.3
Scan Profile 21.1
Armor Rep 3
Stamina 378
Stam Recovery 56.7
The Amarr build costs 83 CPU, 5 PG, and 3 low slots. The Gallente build costs 19 CPU, 6 PG, and 2 low slots. They have identical Scan Distance, Scan Profile, and Armor Reps, with nearly identical Stamina Recovery. But the Gallente has more EHP, more base Stamina, and more speed despite the plate. All for much much cheaper. And honestly, I would have gotten the builds closer together if I could have, but the smaller modules on the Gallente were already blowing away the Amarr.
All I did was match the bonuses of the other race. I didn't come up with a Gallente preferential build for this. To match the Amarr suit is pitifully easy, because the bonuses are so low. To match the Gallente is abusively hard, because they bonuses make it unique and hard to mimic.
I don't see how i'm being disingenuous (had to look it up, but I still disagree) with the comparison considering everyone was basing their original opinions on the whole "it's equivalent to a basic module blah blah blah" standard. This does not reveal much about the true increase in advantage the bonus gives to one scout over another, while the percentage increase literally does exactly that.
To your point A: Yeah adding modules typically does overtake gaps for most suits/skills. There's nothing special about the Amarr or the Gallente in this respect.
B: May be true that most people would rather have dampening but if it means that much to you to always be invisible then you shouldn't be using the Amarr scout or you should be using a good cloak strategically. Just because people would rather have the bonus of one suit over another doesn't make one better than the other, it just means more people would prefer their own suit.
People make claims that the minmatar assault was UP compared to the rest of the assaults but I completely disagree because I run the SMG mostly and the clip bonus is gold. The ratio of Caldari Assaults to Minmatar Assaults should demonstrate that people consider more health (or reload speed back when it had that) more useful than sidearm clip size. This doesn't mean the bonus should be changed because it's bad, it just means more people care more about reload speed or shield tanking (no surprise).
This is why I went with a percentage increase. Completely unbiased by opinions on what is "better" across the board.
The conclusion I got from your analysis (which was extremely interesting, honestly) is that the gallente is far more versatile than the Amarr. I don't typically go into a suit for the versatility but I understand that others do. If I want a hacking suit then I'll go where the hacking bonus is and max it out in any way I can. They could've given it to the callogi and I would've picked that suit because of it and stack modules to make it far superior than other suits. I don't try to replicate other suits, even if it can be done far easier with one than another.
Another point I think that is worth considering is that people always try to compare suits to the Gallente (and now i guess also Caldari) scout in terms of scan profile but it's pointless. If you want to get to that level, just pick that suit. It should be hard to be invisible to scanners and you should have to give up a lot to do so. I think it's cool that CCP created a suit that can have a head start in that direction but to pick another suit, even another scout, and try to get as low as the scout that was meant to avoid every type of scanner is ridiculous and no one should get upset that it is costly.
While this is MHO, I do agree that clearly the gallente suit is more versatile and honestly I thought the armor repair was too much and should be removed. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
249
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 04:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:I'll give it to Toby Flenderson.
If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good.
BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences.
Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...)
On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months....
Haha if I'm happy with it why would I want it to be better just so other people will use it? It's not going to be FOTM like the rest of the suits have potential to be, but it's still a good suit. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
249
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 04:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:I'll give it to Toby Flenderson.
If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good.
BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences.
Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...)
On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months.... Toby and Lynn for some reason are just flagrantly anti-amarr and I can't figure it out. IF you can not see that the amarr scout is garbage... Also, jump/melee is based off of percentage of stamina, not amount. This means more stamina =/= more jumping.
Again, faster regen = more jumping.
Am I being called a racist here? Haha by praising the suit? Just because it's not going to be super OP/FOTM doesn't mean it has to be buffed until it has potential to be. I was against all scout suit changes. I predict the scout suits will be the new assault suits and it will fill the forums within a week. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I will beGǪ |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
249
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 04:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Faquira Bleuetta wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:
M > A:
EHP by 35
Slots by 1
Speed by 0.05 m/s
CPU by 10
Melee by 30
Armor repair rate 1hp/s
A > M:
Equipment by 1
Shield rechange by 12 hp/s
S.R. Delay by 2 seconds
D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds
Scan Range by 10m
Scan Profile by 15
Scan Precision by 10
Stamina by 50
Stamina Recovery by 20
This being said, I don't see how someone in their right mind would be upset over a 0.05 m/s speed advantage given to the minmatar assault considering the massive advantages given to the amarr scout.
Three of the listed Amarr "advantages" over the Minmatar are shield related: Shield rechange by 12 hp/s S.R. Delay by 2 seconds D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds The Amarr Scout has the lowest base shields in the entire game, of any suit, and role, anywhere. Period. At Proto, it has 2 high slots with which to boost that. The Amarr is not going to get much mileage out that "bonus" against the Minmatar suit. The HP difference you refer to as "small" is also larger than the hp bonus the Amarr enjoys over the next highest ehp scouts. So, the extent to which it is meaningless, is only as meaningless as the advantage the Amarr enjoys over the Gallente or Caldari (the former of which has innate armor reps at 3 per second, the latter of which can leverage the scout shield bonuses more). The single slot advantage of the assault allows this difference to be exploited to an even larger degree. The fact that the speed difference is marginal is flame-bait, but the problem would be just as annoying if their speed was the exact same. The problem is the slowest scout being the at the same speed OR slower than the fastest assault. The lower scout hp typically indicates a need to speed tank or generally be "gone" to evade the slower but more powerful suits. The Amarr lacks any strafing advantage vs. an Minmatar Assault. The fact he can sprint longer (at the same speed) will make a difference... sometimes? But those few extra seconds of sprinting are largely irrelevant in the sense of combat viability, and not marked enough to set it apart in usefulness as a scout. The most salient bonuses the Amarr scout DOES have are the profile detection-related ones, but those are the same (or BETTER) across all scouts and the Amarr is SOL when it comes to the other scout strengths at dealing with other suits, especially the Minmatar assault which has a speed and hp advantage on him. ' 1. 2 Complex shield extenders with passive skills gives the Amarr scout 281.5 shield. As far as getting the mileage out of it, this is what I generally have on my scouts ATM and it's plenty for a great buffer between engagements. The regen rate is nearly twice that of the minmatar assault. The only thing that the minmatar has is amount of shield, which IMO, past 300 doesn't mean nearly as much recharge delay/rate especially when you're talking about 4 extra seconds and nearly half the recharge rate. 2. I'm not talking about other scouts. I'm only comparing the M.A. and A.S. If a a sentinel had 100 more armor than another it wouldn't mean much considering they tend to break 1,000 ehp. This 100 would be a crazy increase for a scout but it doesn't mean anything when comparing sentinels. I would much rather have the natural armor reps from the gallente scout but that doesn't matter either, the point is 35 base ehp is hardly worth bragging about, especially going from a light to a medium assault suit that is meant for frontline action. As far as slots go, low slots are more useful for ehp tanking. I'm not sure on the math but I'd be willing to bet that the amarr scout could tank as much or more health than the minmatar assault. 3. I honestly don't even know what flame-bait means but if you're claiming that it's the principle of the matter (that the speed should be limited from tier to tier) then I'm sure you wouldn't mind the assault getting pushed back to 99% of the Amarr scout's speed. This would abide by this arbitrary restriction and make virtually no difference in playability, hence my point that the speed advantage is worthless. If the HP was significantly lower, then I'd agree with you, but it isn't. The minmatar assault is more like a scout than an assault in terms of speed and health, yet they're not expected to run from other "more powerful" suits. Strafing matters, I agree, but not 0.05 m/s. The stamina allows the scout to continue jumping in a CQ fight against anything and still have time to run and dodge and jump some more. This is why I'm killed the most as a scout: Not able to escape. Current scouts without regulators can jump a couple times and run around a nearby corner if they have full stamina. In those situations, stamina is gold, not necessarily speed. 4. Again I'm not concerned with the other scouts, as this thread is about the comparison between the Amarr scout and the Minmatar assault. If you want to see some interesting math with regards to other scouts, check out my last few posts. 219 shield
Thanks for the catch. Acknowledged. |
|
|
Toby Flenderson
research lab
249
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 04:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ivan Avogadro wrote:I have another way to look at your data, Toby. Yes, Amarr get 66% bonus to Stamina while Gallente get a meager 25% bonus to dampening. But you can't just compare percentages of different things together to say which one is bigger. You only did half of the necessary calculations. How do you know 1% Stamina is a bigger bonus than 1% Profile Dampening?
For example, 25% of Texas is substantially larger than 66% of Rhode Island. You need to have a conversion in order to compare different things. So how does Stamina + Stamina Regen compare to Profile Dampening + Scan Radius? Which suit is Texas and which suit is Rhode Island?
Well, luckily CCP has given us the conversion. They gave us modules that are supposedly balanced with the game economy, so we know exactly how much CCP values 1% of Stamina and how much they value 1% Profile.
AMARR BONUS:
Complex Cardiac Regulator = 100% ( Stamina and Stamina Regen Rate ) = 3150 ISK
1% ( Stamina and Stamina Regen Rate ) = 31.5 ISK
Amarr Bonus = 25% ( Stamina and Stamina Regen ) = 25 x 31.5 = 787.5 ISK
GALLENTE BONUS
Complex Profile Dampener = 45% Profile Reduction = 3615 ISK
1% Profile Reduction = 80 ISK
Complex Range Amplifier = 25% Radius Increase = 3420 ISK
1% Radius Increase = 136.8 ISK
Gallente Bonus = 25% Profile Reduction + 25% Radius Increase = 25 * 80 + 25 * 136 = 5428.3 ISK
Holy crap! The Gallente bonus, when directly compared to the Amarr bonus, costs 689% more ISK! Just by running the Gal Scout, you get 689% more bonus FOR FREE. Who in their right mind would choose the Amarr scout? Can you actually still argue that this racial ability is worthwhile?
Haha if ISK is the conversion factor then I suggest you take a look at MLT tanks, PLCs, SLs, Commando suits, Flaylock back in the day, etc.GǪ The point of using percentage increases is that the usefulness of one stat is based on preference and play styles.
Also it fails to consider blueprintsGǪ.
I'm not comparing stamina to dampening, I'm comparing increase in efficiency to increase in efficiency. There is nothing ambiguous about this comparison. The advantage given to the Amarr suit because of it's bonus is X and the advantage given to the Gallente suit because of it's bonus is Y. If X > Y then the Amarr bonus offers a larger advantage TO STAMINA than the Gallente bonus offers to DAMPENING.
In your analogy you are not even including the other population in any calculation while a percentage increase does exactly that, measure the increase in efficiency from one suit to another. I don't know what other calculation you'd expect to do.
|
Toby Flenderson
research lab
249
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 04:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:@ Toby Flenderson
Thats the thing smartass.
The suit is NO ONE'S CUP OF TEA........... Boldboldbold. You really don't understand what opinions are. I'm struggling to take you seriously but it's getting very difficult to read past the bold arrogance. I use bold to find my posts faster since my vision is highly deteriorated.
More than arrogant, smart....What , opinions are? Bro, please find me one person that will be using the Amarr scout FOR ITS BONUS, and i'll drop it.
Jera 13. See you later. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
250
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 04:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:@ Toby Flenderson
Thats the thing smartass.
The suit is NO ONE'S CUP OF TEA........... Boldboldbold. You really don't understand what opinions are. I'm struggling to take you seriously but it's getting very difficult to read past the bold arrogance. I use bold to find my posts faster since my vision is highly deteriorated.
More than arrogant, smart....What , opinions are? Bro, please find me one person that will be using the Amarr scout FOR ITS BONUS, and i'll drop it.
Also try Control + F |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
250
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 04:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:The amarr scout sucks.
End thread/
I wish I thought of this first... |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
250
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 04:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:knight guard fury wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:The amarr scout sucks.
End thread/ thats what u think If your not planning on specing into the suit than all further opinions you have on it are nullified. Yes im playing that card because people like you seem to not be able to grasp how easily the Amarr stats and bonuses are copied.
You're allowed to have opinions on suits even if you don't use them. Arguments do not have to be rooted to personal experience, they can be logical. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
250
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 04:24:00 -
[26] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:all suits are have a purpose. you just have to find that purpose and use it to your advantage
Most sense I've seen on this thread so far. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
250
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 04:35:00 -
[27] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:I'll give it to Toby Flenderson.
If this was a world without AA and Good strafing mechanics, the Amarr scout with his miserable STAMINA bonus could be good.
BUt as it is, having 30 more stamina than other scouts wont make the slightest of differences.
Its just ,again, a stupid bonus since it wont help you do ANYTHING , except when a match startes to run and take objectives... (and calling a LAV would still be smarter...)
On the other side of the coin, i dont know why Toby Flenderson is SO AGAINST amarrs being happy with their scout suit,which we have waited for months.... Haha if I'm happy with it why would I want it to be better just so other people will use it? It's not going to be FOTM like the rest of the suits have potential to be, but it's still a good suit. So you ARE Confirming you are Biased after all! You are NOT Speccing into it. YOU ARE HAPPY WITH IT because is bad, your dont want it to be usable like the rest with a weak excuse like ''i dont want it to be FOTM''. Your posts there by, are all Meaningless since you have openly admitted that you WONT use the suit and you want it to remain BAD, so that no one specs into it. You sir , are a swine and you are not my n***a.Look kid, LOOK at all the REST of the bonuses ,scouts,Commandos,heavy Sentinels,Assaults and Logis have. Then Look at the Amarr SCOUT one. YOU SERIOUSLY THINK ITS OK? No, of course not, you know its crap,you defend the bonus just for the trolls...
Hahaha where in my post did you get any of that. Let's break it downGǪ
"Haha if I'm happy with it why would I want it to be better just so other people will use it?"
Clearly supports the current proposal. If I believe that it is usable then why would I want it to get buffed just because other people don't think it's good enough? My vote is for no, yours is for yes. Still no sign of "I'm not speccing into the suit".
"It's not going to be FOTM like the rest of the suits have potential to be, but it's still a good suit."
Clearly not many people are convinced that this suit could be good so I do not foresee many threads QQ about the suit being overused. Does this in any way elude to me not using the suit myself especially after all of the support I've shown for it? No. I even ended it on "it's still a good suit".
Please just tell me where you got any of that from my last post.
I don't want anything to be FOTM, aka OP and overused because it's easy mode. I want the Gallente armor repair removed, the caldari shield recharge lowered. The minmatar is probably fine as is. Not wanting things to be FOTM and being glad that there will be a new suit that isn't instantly going to out-do every other suit like the logis currently do does not mean that I hope no one specs into it.
Let me ask you thisGǪ Why would I spend so much time trying to convince people the last two days that this suit is good if I didn't want people to use it? I'm speaking to players, not CCP. I'm trying to share with potential users the advantages of the suit so that people use it more because it seems like people aren't going to use it now. I'm not saying that I would resist a buff but it would have to be very small because my opinion is that it is good as it is.
Again, you have no reason to think that I will not use this suit let alone "confirmation" that i will NOT be using it.
Even if I don't decide to use it (PLEASE TREAT THIS AS HYPOTHETICAL BECAUSE I KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO JUST JUMP ON THIS IN A RESPONSE), it would not change/nullify/invalidate any of the arguments I'm making in favor of the suit. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
250
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 08:20:00 -
[28] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:
This is a straight-up false dichotomy. There is no reason to say there can only be two possible reasons. What is true? You think it's not a problem and I do - exactly that much.
This is a non-argument. You can say "speed affects the playability of either suit". I agree with that statement because I think speed makes a large difference. What does NOT follow from that is that a .05 m/s buff/nerf is noticeable. It's a complete non sequitur - the two statements have nothing to do with each other. The fact that the the Amarr Scout isn't noticeably faster (e.g. - scout speed advantage) is exactly the bad part. That's how speed affects the playability of the scout - by failing to give the scout a speed advantage over a better tanked suit.
You're missing the point - whole point of this thread actually. The point is to have a noticeable difference in the speed of the Amarr scout. The phrasing of the title may suggest that even a slight bonus would rectify the situation, but I didn't write the title nor explain my position in those terms. Scouts need to have a noticeable speed advantage over assault to compensate for the lack of hp, and the Amarr does not have this. The Amarr aren't getting speed, stealth, or regen in comparison to other scouts. The speed isn't enough because they lack the actual speed advantage, both against an assault (which can out-tank them) and against other scouts. Saying to slot a kincat will do nothing for the strafe/combat speed, since it only boosts sprint speed.
I pointed out math-wise in the previous post that the Amarr stamina bonus doesn't actually let them jump "more", they will jump exactly the same and regen enough for another jump in the exact period of time with or without the bonus.
It actually is not a false dichotomy. The first step is either a true or false statement: Problem or not?
There is no other answer for this as they are logical opposites and encompass all possible interpretations.
The second part is still fair because we're talking about a change that only effects playability of two suits. Now if you answer no to part one then we're done and we don't even get this far. If you answer yes then you have to admit that the functionality of the suit is either noticeably changed or not. I'm not going to get too deep into "noticeably", but if you can't notice a difference then there is literally no reason to complain about it. The only possible logical alternative is that it light suits were, by design, intended to be faster and that is untrue with this new Amarr scout. There is no middle ground as these are either "agree/disagree" propositions.
I literally clarify what I mean by "affects the playability". LIke I literally explain it immediately after the phrase "affects". Technically a 0.00001m/s difference effects the playability but I wanted to clarify that I am only considering "noticeable" differences in playability. Apparently this is where you really want to crack down on my criteria with which I judge this noticeability, but luckily I even continued to clarify what I was implying. I'm not claiming the speed difference affects either suit, I'm listing that as a possible argument which I lazily shoot down because I don't believe a reasonable person could notice that difference. People thought switching weapons made you run faster because of the animation. There's no way 0.05 m/s would be noticeable to the community. There's no conditional statement implying another in that entire section, there's nothing to follow, it's just clarification.
I understand why people want scouts to be fast. Here's the thing. They are fast. It doesn't matter that one other non-scout suit is also fast. It doesn't somehow make the scouts less effective. That's why I was annoyed when I read how upset people were getting that "the fastest, most scout-like assault suit can run at virtually the same speed as the slowest scout suit". It doesn't make the Amarr scout slower than the rest of the Minmatar suits.
Think of how people would respond if they just removed the Minmatar assault altogether. No one starts a thread about an assault weaseling it's way into scout speed territory. No one even cares because the Amarr scout is still faster than every other suit minus the 3 other scouts. Bring the Assault suit back and everyone flips out. Why? Because of the principle of the thing, because scouts have to be the fastest. That's why this is so ridiculous. There isn't some FOTM minmatar assault running around at scout speed proving to be better at the Amarr scout roll than it will be itself when it's released. This boils down to people just being upset because an assault suit can catch up to the slowest scout and that's ridiculous. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
250
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 08:22:00 -
[29] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:@ Toby Flenderson
Thats the thing smartass.
The suit is NO ONE'S CUP OF TEA........... Boldboldbold. You really don't understand what opinions are. I'm struggling to take you seriously but it's getting very difficult to read past the bold arrogance. I use bold to find my posts faster since my vision is highly deteriorated.
More than arrogant, smart....What , opinions are? Bro, please find me one person that will be using the Amarr scout FOR ITS BONUS, and i'll drop it. Jera 13. See you later. WTH is Jera13
I forgot that people have to post in the forums to exist. Rats... |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
250
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 08:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Angry mob of Dust 514,
I'm sorry but I think I'm done posting in this thread. Every time I come back I spend a couple hours responding to like 5 people trying to tear apart paragraphs with more paragraphs.
Say what you will but it's simply not worth it to continue these arguments as they are all almost identical but different enough to respond to individually.
My bottom line is that I think the Amarr scout will be fine as it is and it doesn't bother me that an assault suit is faster than it.
If you want the last word then keep posting and I will read the responses with an open mind, but I hope at least someone looks back and does the same.
Until another scout thread appears,
Toby |
|
|
|
|
| |
|