the ammarr scout does not need more speed, it needs like 50-60 more base hp and the best fittings of any scout, better than gallente. The minmitar assault is good where it is at, the only thing that needs to change is shield extenders which have way to high fitting requirements to be used effectively. Gallente scout is by far the best of any scout, surpassing minmitar in speed tanking potential, ehp potential, repair potential, passive scan potential and everything else. The only thing gallente does worse than minmitar and amarr is stamina.

This is how it should work

Minmitar scout=fastest suit, great speed tanker, biotically amped freak of an assassin, without enough hp to survive 2 rail rifle shots
Amarr scout=slowest scout, but fastest in the long run, basically a light amarr assault that can speed tank as well, best uplink runner, medium frame like hp with light frame speed and dampening

To allow for this, shield extenders need less fitting requirements and better regen on minmitar and caldari suits, as well as more hp on STD and ADV extenders, kincats need a larger stacking penalty, especially after two, but affect strafe speed by one half of what they do to sprint speed as well, and minmitar scouts need a 5 ish % buff to sprint and movement speed. Ammarr scouts, on the other hand, need their bonus tuned up to at least 10% per level, and gain +15-20 shield, and +35-40 armor at base, as well as gaining 10-15% more cpu and pg.

Zeylon, but what role is left for the Amarr Scout now?

Cal - range (EWAR) and passive precision (EWAR)
Gal - range (EWAR) and dampening (EWAR)
Min - nova knives (melee, Biotics-ish), speed (Biotics), and hacking
Am - stamina and stamina regen (Biotics)

Am needs something in the scout wheelhouse, but everything in Biotics and EWAR is taken. Unless you give them a straight melee bonus and turn them punch suits. You could give them the same range bonus that Cal and Gal get, leave the Min scout out in the cold as the least EWAR-y scout, but that dilutes down the war that the two nemeses have going.

Min gets a bonus to fitting a weapon (offense). You could give them a bonus to fitting plates (defense, opposite their nemesis) but that would be too close to tanking them into assaults.

The uplink runner idea is the only scouty one left, if they can carry extra uplinks or hives per equip slot. Bump up their stamina too.

M > A:
EHP by 35
Slots by 1
Speed by 0.05 m/s
CPU by 10
Melee by 30
Armor repair rate 1hp/s

A > M:
Equipment by 1
Shield rechange by 12 hp/s
S.R. Delay by 2 seconds
D.S.R. Delay by 4 seconds
Scan Range by 10m
Scan Profile by 15
Scan Precision by 10
Stamina by 50
Stamina Recovery by 20

This being said, I don't see how someone in their right mind would be upset over a 0.05 m/s speed advantage given to the minmatar assault considering the massive advantages given to the amarr scout.

This is why I hate when I read people complaining about the Amarr scout using the "oh well the others get a free complex module when this thing doesn't even get a basic". Clearly, when you stack a complex module on top of a drop suit bonus, the Amarr scout shines as far as it's effective advantage over the other scouts.

1. 2 Complex shield extenders with passive skills gives the Amarr scout 281.5 shield. As far as getting the mileage out of it, this is what I generally have on my scouts ATM and it's plenty for a great buffer between engagements. The regen rate is nearly twice that of the minmatar assault. The only thing that the minmatar has is amount of shield, which IMO, past 300 doesn't mean nearly as much recharge delay/rate especially when you're talking about 4 extra seconds and nearly half the recharge rate.

2. I'm not talking about other scouts. I'm only comparing the M.A. and A.S. If a a sentinel had 100 more armor than another it wouldn't mean much considering they tend to break 1,000 ehp. This 100 would be a crazy increase for a scout but it doesn't mean anything when comparing sentinels. I would much rather have the natural armor reps from the gallente scout but that doesn't matter either, the point is 35 base ehp is hardly worth bragging about, especially going from a light to a medium assault suit that is meant for frontline action. As far as slots go, low slots are more useful for ehp tanking. I'm not sure on the math but I'd be willing to bet that the amarr scout could tank as much or more health than the minmatar assault.

3. I honestly don't even know what flame-bait means but if you're claiming that it's the principle of the matter (that the speed should be limited from tier to tier) then I'm sure you wouldn't mind the assault getting pushed back to 99% of the Amarr scout's speed. This would abide by this arbitrary restriction and make virtually no difference in playability, hence my point that the speed advantage is worthless. If the HP was significantly lower, then I'd agree with you, but it isn't. The minmatar assault is more like a scout than an assault in terms of speed and health, yet they're not expected to run from other "more powerful" suits. Strafing matters, I agree, but not 0.05 m/s. The stamina allows the scout to continue jumping in a CQ fight against anything and still have time to run and dodge and jump some more. This is why I'm killed the most as a scout: Not able to escape. Current scouts without regulators can jump a couple times and run around a nearby corner if they have full stamina. In those situations, stamina is gold, not necessarily speed.

4. Again I'm not concerned with the other scouts, as this thread is about the comparison between the Amarr scout and the Minmatar assault. If you want to see some interesting math with regards to other scouts, check out my last few posts.

3. I honestly don't even know what flame-bait means but if you're claiming that it's the principle of the matter (that the speed should be limited from tier to tier) then I'm sure you wouldn't mind the assault getting pushed back to 99% of the Amarr scout's speed. This would abide by this arbitrary restriction and make virtually no difference in playability, hence my point that the speed advantage is worthless. If the HP was significantly lower, then I'd agree with you, but it isn't. The minmatar assault is more like a scout than an assault in terms of speed and health, yet they're not expected to run from other "more powerful" suits. Strafing matters, I agree, but not 0.05 m/s. The stamina allows the scout to continue jumping in a CQ fight against anything and still have time to run and dodge and jump some more. This is why I'm killed the most as a scout: Not able to escape. Current scouts without regulators can jump a couple times and run around a nearby corner if they have full stamina. In those situations, stamina is gold, not necessarily speed.

4. Again I'm not concerned with the other scouts, as this thread is about the comparison between the Amarr scout and the Minmatar assault. If you want to see some interesting math with regards to other scouts, check out my last few posts.

Do you even jump? Seriously people are so focused on running in straight lines when most of the time ability to jump around your target (especially heavies) is what keeps a scout alive. I'd say most of my deaths in engagements as a scout arise from not being able to escape/jump to safety.

If you have a current minmatar logi and you want to run it as a hacker, you don't just take the bonus and run with that. You skill into code breakers and load it up so that you can insta-hack. In this way you're maximizing your advantage. If you're not doing this with your suits, you're doing something wrong.

As far as practicality is concerned, I value stamina over dampening in the current build. No one is going to be complaining about getting scanned when they can run cloaks and avoid most of them completely, but that's beside the point. It's stupid to think that just because the advantage you get from biopics isn't either completely useful or completely useless as is dampening, that it doesn't matter. Think about how often fast you can use stamina and think about how fast the Amarr will recover. It's almost erasing the stamina restriction for the drop suit with a complex module. You can get it all back in seconds and just run for another minute. This is a huge difference in the scope of an entire match. Say you play a 15 minute match as the amarr scout. You could sprint for a minute every 6 seconds. This means that every 10 minutes of sprint requires 1 minute of rest. So out of an entire match you will spend less than 1.5 minutes not running. I'm not even sure you could fill that time with reloading.


This reminded me that I forgot to include the biopics passive skills in my calculations. Either way it will effect the Amarr scout more than the rest, so it would've only exaggerated my point.

As far as speed goesGǪ The suit has 4 low slotsGǪ Use them.

I know the currently known Amarr scout bonus seems week but CCP alreday acknowledged that so we have to see what will happen here.

I'll respond to the rest of you later tonight but to whoever called me a primate you can go **** yourself. Anyone can make honest mistakes in assumptions/spreadsheets, it doesn't mean anything other than they were mistaken about how a skill in a video game stacks and that reading huge spreadsheets on a cell phone can lead to misreading the cells.

1. Read my post. I said that I didn't include suit bonuses for simplicity. If I did then the stamina stats would've been much higher on the Amarr side but you conveniently ignored that. I was basing it off of 30 vs. 18 which is just about right in between rounding up and rounding down from 33% to double. Either way, you're ignoring the point that the Amarr has just better regen than even a proto assault.

I misunderstood how the passive skill worked and addressed it in an earlier post. You got me, I made a mistake. Moving on, my argument still stands. The two shield extenders would still make a great buffer, especially if it comes back in the time it takes for another suit to chase you around corners, assuming you're running and jumping out of the gun fight if need be. I don't know if you've noticed how quick TTK is, but 10 seconds to wait for your shield to even start coming back can easily lead to being picked off by another enemy or a returning Amarr scout. I don't see how you can just ignore the difference in delays/recharge just because the minmatar can tank more shield.

Feel free to double check the rest of my math, I encourage it. I'd rather be corrected than be accused of making a dishonest case for the Amarr scout. Just because I made a mistake doesn't negate everything I'm saying though. I concede that the correct shield calculation/ehp comparison makes a better case for the ehp advantage to be more significant. It's still, IMO, not the most important thing to have in a suit.

I wouldn't run a scout like a tank so you can talk about stacking complex plates on it all day but I'd much rather just rely on an SMG and sneak attacks. It's funny that you seemed to have taken this argument into a "the minmatar assault is WAY better at being a tank than a scout" when it started as a speed thing but whatever. When I can take down heavies with a toxin smg and an advanced scout suit just by jumping around/over them, I don't need 1000+ ehp. I'm not trying to brag, but it can and is being done by more than just me. This leads me to my next point about valuing jumping.

People say it's so easy to hit people that are jumping and I agree if they are further away. This is not the case when someone charges straight at you with a weapon that's meant to spray and pray as you dance around them in circles. It simply works. I use the agility to my advantage but once you're out of sprint you're just as slow as the rest. Strafing is not necessarily superior to jump shotting IMO. It puts you on an equal playing field with a suit that may have 2-3 times your ehp. What those suits can't do is jump over your head or past you, causing you to have to 180 to being firing again. I'd consider the "you can track their trajectory when they jump" argument more if it were actually true in my experiences but it's simply not.

You've ignored equipment completely. Scouts can also logi spam to an extent. Also get past many scanners. I'm going to move onto another post, I have a lot of people to respond to. Feel free to pick at my math again, but honestly the ehp was the least of my concerns considering I expected it to be much higher considering we were comparing a light to a medium suit.

You completely missed my pointGǪ Either the similar speeds are a problem or they're not. I claim they're not. You obviously think they are, otherwise you wouldn't be complaining so much about it. This leads us to two possible reasonsGǪ

1. The speed affects the playability of either suit. By this, I mean that if either suit were given a 0.05m/s buff/nerf, people would notice. This is just ridiculous and untrue. No one would notice the difference, and even if someone could, they should not be complaining about something so minuscule.

This leaves us with reason 2GǪ
2. The principle that scouts should be faster than assaults. I'm saying I'd be perfectly ok to nerd the Amarr scout to 99% of the Minmatar assault speed. If this were to happen then the second argument would be nullified and we would live in virtually the same universe where they're basically the same speed and no one can tell. But, after this nerf, no one using the 2nd argument could complain about it further.

This completely solves the problem for argument 2. If you want a noticeable difference, pick a different scout suit, or make this one faster with kin cats. You can't have everything (speed, stealth, regen, etc.). Pick what's important to you and stop complaining.

Strafe speed is good for suits that can't afford to jump past enemies. If you disagree that jumping makes you a harder target to hit close range then we are at an impasse on that subject. I understand that speed is important but the Amarr scout is still fast enough to do what scouts can do, and if they're not, they just sacrifice a low slot (easy, since they have 4) to bring them back up to other scouts.

Spoiler: Clipped original post to make roomGǪ

If you're going to take every chance you can to point out a mistake I've made then I may as well reference Anchorman and laugh at " Being able to move faster without sprinting in general is more useful, 100% of the time". Being able to always sprint on average makes you faster than any other suit in the sense that you can always be sprinting. They have to catch you in the 6 seconds in between every minute of spiriting to be firing at a target that isn't walking. This gives the Amarr scout an effective speed advantage against any suit who doesn't have as much stamina as they do at the time of the engagement.

People really need to learn how to read. I never said i was or wasn't getting this suit. I won't do it out of peer pressure but if I don't it will be a mixture of factors such as the millions of skills I have into the scan range/profile/dampening and kin cats. These would compliment the other scouts more and to use the Amarr scout as I have described would require skilling into shotguns and cardiac regulators to take advantage of the suit. Just because I don't typically use the current scouts that way does not make my points in any way invalid or dishonest. I reference the heavy suit analogy againGǪ By this logic, anyone who has ever thought that a heavy suit could be useful in CQC but didn't skill into them would be a hypocrite for acknowledging the benefits of the suit but not skilling into heavy suits/weapons right away.

The upper limit is virtually never having to worry about sprinting/jumping around corners if you're being shot. This is incredibly useful and if we disagree then I don't know what to say.

The bonus also effects the recharge rate. 10 seconds can mean the difference between getting around a corner or not. The next time you're playing count 10 seconds worth of sprinting and try to imagine not having that every time you go to use it. It's enough of a bonus to notice the difference. We're not talking about what's "enough" as the normal hack speed is "enough" for everyone who isn't running a minmatar scout or code breakers. It's about excelling in a stat, not getting just enough to move around the map slightly more effectively than medium suits.

That's cute, about the movement speed and low slots. I forgot that when people talk about speed tanking they mean strafe speedGǪ No. Sprint speed is clearly more important and they make modules especially for that. If you want the fastest scout, don't get the Amarr, plain and simple. If you want the most mobile suit, pick the Amarr scout and put a kin cat on it.

I made up a hypothetical heavy suits with a difference of 100 hp to demonstrate a point, so I don't know why you're referencing real suits and implying that I was making a claim about them.

Angry mob of Dust 514,

I'm sorry but I think I'm done posting in this thread. Every time I come back I spend a couple hours responding to like 5 people trying to tear apart paragraphs with more paragraphs.

Say what you will but it's simply not worth it to continue these arguments as they are all almost identical but different enough to respond to individually.

My bottom line is that I think the Amarr scout will be fine as it is and it doesn't bother me that an assault suit is faster than it.

If you want the last word then keep posting and I will read the responses with an open mind, but I hope at least someone looks back and does the same.

Until another scout thread appears,
Toby

This is a good read.

It hadn't occurred to me before, but the Amarr will be a HUGE scout anomaly if they don't adjust the speeds.

The "slowest" scout in the game right now is the Gallente scout, which still has a notable speed advantage on the Minmatar Assault. They're adding two scouts: Caldari and Amarr. The Caldari will be as fast as the Gallente, so - there's still a scout speed advantage over assault there.

The Amarr is the only one in the game without the notable speed advantage over assaults. But the Amarr still has crap hp, so it both lacks the speed advantage afforded every other scout, and it's just as weak in terms of hp. You'd be a fool to skill into this ill-conceived suit.