Balancing


Basic problems

Militia AV - It's too good, alot of players do use them against basic vehicles, you want players to try them out sure but you also want players to specialize into AV if they like it. Reduce militia AV by 50% damage

Militia Vehicles - The LAV is generally too good now since the HP buff, even the HAV got a HP buff which wasn't needed, so remove the buff to militia vehicles, dropship stays the same. This would generally stop militia LAV as murder taxis since they would be more like paper so easier to take out

AV nades - Many assault/logis use this as their main source of AV because they are skilled mostly into their primary and dropsuit/mods, problem is they are very good for knocking out a HAV on its own, the nades should be more of a deterrent and not as a standalone AV weapon to be put next to the SL/FG/PL, it should be used with the AV weapons. I would reduce the damage by 25-50%, also it would help if we could see how much damage they do to begin with

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AV & vehicle payouts - If you specialize into these roles expect no isk even if you kill 4 enforcers in a game totalling 6mil ISK, you will be lucky to get 300k. You cannot make a profit unless you don't die for several games unless you want to run militia suits because all your SP is into vehicles. In general we need bigger payouts to make us feel more useful and also to reward those who go into the roles to begin with, I suggest that anyone who kills anything gets 50% more ISK and anyone who assists gets 25%

Example - AV/vehicle guy kills a 1mil ISK HAV, he gets 500k as a reward for killing that HAV, the guy who got an assist for also helping killing that HAV gets 250k

This is another issue that we can agree and disagree at the same time however, realize that CCP wants everyone on a balanced pay. You can't have someone getting say...18 kills and have only 200k isk compared to someone destroying 2 enforcers, made 3 kills(including the HAVs) and have 750k isk in their pockets that basicly just putting focus on AV tactics and not focusing on Infantry. Another thing to point out people who losses their enforcers or any expensive vehicle, and get small payout, basicly it's on them. They decide to bring out their vehicles on their cold hard isk. They should know what to expect from the other team. someone is going to fight back and when they do, that person should have a back up plan or to make themselves more safe go in a squad, communicate with them and let them know to back you up. Going in blind with an HAV Enforcer doesn't make you hard to kill unless you know whats going on in the field.

The first person to tell someone else that they are whining...releases a massive thread and qq's about AV being powerful lol

Thread is too long to read every single line but what I gathered is that this is another AV is too powerful and needs to be nerfed thread. From what I've skimmed through....I got that vehicles need to either stay where they are or get buffed. Even the LAVs ared fine according to this thread.

I dont use SLs but I use proto AV nades...and for a well fitted Madrugar or Gunnlogi, it takes about 6 Lai Dais to destroy it. Who knows what it will take to destroy a proto tank. With damage mods and passive dmg bonuses to SLs and Forges...they may do incredible damage and it is much easier to solo a tank with those weapons. But you dont get those bonuses with AV nades...they truly are a deterrent unless a tank decides to stand right in front of infantry. Because you can not solo a well-fitted tank without reloading. And if you need a team...then it's working as intended.

Realize the fact that AV nades useful to many people just the way it is,yes the Militia are a bit powerful and should fix that. However if if you were to reduce the damage of all the other AV Nades we might as well just throw rocks at the vehicles

stopped reading when you said swarm launchers needed a major nerf.

they need an over haul their design is stupid for both sides, they move to slow for the fast moving vehicles of today, and deal to little damage for massive amount of resistance on them, and because of the way they track their is little to nothing you can due to compensate the speed of the vehicles.


i'd honestly rather a straight firing missle launcher as I could compensate like I would with a forge gun.

oh well, eventually something will come out I suppose, maybe an officer grade swarm that moves faster...

Very nice. Just one thing I noticed: your armor rep values. It doesn't rep only five times like a shield booster. It reps 414hp every second during each three second pulse, so 15x414=6210.

Now that's almost full hp on an armor tank. It can get back into action in under a minute. Shield boosters however don't even rep half the hp on a shield tank. Now you're talking about sitting idle for minutes as you watch your booster trying to rep you, then wait for it to cooldown.

Shield boosters and armor reps need to have their pulses reversed. Shield in EVE can burst tank while armor takes sustained damage over time. Dust is the exact opposite. Not even. Shield boosters just suck compared to armor reps and armor reps can take damage over time as well as burst tanking.

Just thought I would put in a couple of my thoughts on vehicles. Quick disclaimer, I am pro Infantry!

• Any AV grenade (including militia, not that I use them) should blow up the free LAV's. If you want it to last pay for it!
• They HAVE to fix the Nanite Injector for when you are ran down by an LAV. How many times have you lost your expensive suit to being ran down and had multiple medics trying to needle you to no avail?
• Heck, they need to fix the whole being ran down by an LAV mechanics, lets get some kind of damage dealt relation to speed traveling factors in here. If an LAV taps you then you should not be dead. Overall you should not die from being hit by an LAV unless it's traveling at a decent clip.
• Swarm launchers have some of the stupidest targeting mechanics I've ever seen. Ever watched someone drive away from your missiles? Or watched the missiles turn into a wall just because the HAV backed up 3 meters?
• In my opinion, 2 Infantry working together with AV builds should be able to destroy an HAV (unless he kills them first).
• The seek on AV grenades is broken at times, especially with fast moving LAV's. I've literally thrown an AV grenade directly at an oncoming LAV and heard a 'clink' as I watched it bounce off the vehicle... needless to say some harsh words followed on my part.
• Stop the stealth Vehicles! LAV's and HAV's should ALWAYS show up on your mini map regardless of the direction your facing. We've all been looking right at that mini-map and not seen the LAV or HAV drive up right behind us to murder us. I would go further and say that there should be two ranges for scanning, one for Infantry and one for Vehicles.

I think addressing the instant kill by LAV tap and fixing it so the needle works when you are ran down by an LAV would make the infantry side much much happier.

I must say that this got me to chuckle....OH AND THIS IS SO FEEDBACK> move it that way...

Failed to see where 'webifiers' fit into you jumble, you know so vehicles can't speed away, failed to see the kill feed ruled by proximity mine kills even though there are 5 lav's rolling about, no complaining about them I see... as you probably have never been killed by them.

Case in point, my La Dai's are only meta level 8 or 9, I forget right now.... where are the 10's or don't they have them? I have them on a skinweave heavy with a militia forge gun, so I can soften up the tank before the primary kicks in, I'm holding off on going full racial heavy because I learned my lesson when CCP burned me by forcing me to get basic to level 5 before changing it.

It must be nice to know exactly how much damage your tank can do, as my AV grenades don't tell me that basic fact.

You choose to go into vehicles, while sacrificing the basic name of the game, infantry combat, if you are useless without your vehicle and expect to use the same one multiple matches without running into something that can wipe the floor with you, how is that any different than the I just want to win button. Is it a useful tool, sure is but if you don't hack the necessary points and are hiding so far behind the redline that swarms can't even hit while still popping the random enemy that appears in your narrow field of attack I don't want you on my team.

In This corner the challenger;
I only get three AV/ Flux grenades, and a primary weapon with maybe 20 shots or so that can hit you before I need to resupply, which means - die or get lucky and hope one of these supposed logi's has a nano-hive, limited stamina. 1 shot kill victim to core flaylock, forge gun, lav hit, and loss of the ability to aim when hit by mass driver rounds.

-vs-

In the other corner the champion;
Unlimited stamina, ie it can go full speed all the time. Unlimited ammo, for possibly 3 turrets, and the ability to get 3 players more wp's than 1 man can do for destroying it, even if all three members of one squad were close enough to each other to get a killing shot on you. With enough enemies shooting you it may seem like you got OHK, but has that ever happend - I seriously doubt it.

Oh, I do plan on going into vehicles one day again, but not until I have a reason to.

I think you should have a skill / chance to salvage your own vehicles too... if your tank has been destroyed, it should have some quantity of hitpoints that would allow you to recall it, or automatically salvage it if your side is victorious. If the killers are able to finish off the tank, with a couple more AV shots, then your tank has been permakilled...but otherwise your isk losses might be mitigated.

Not to mention the whole argument about teamwork how it only takes 1 HAV driver to annoy a whole team yet the same HAV driver is asking for AV to use teamwork to kill his HAV

Like i said we dont even know the damage values of AV nades to begin with

Packed AV does what 1200 or so, what the hell does proto do?

I put down 25-50% as a really rough estimate but until we get exact damage numbers then we cant really say but they are not legitimate AV, they are ther a deterent for infantry to carry and also to help out as they defend ther AV guys from infantry

They can kill a LAV fine and put some hurt and maybe even get to kill the MAVs we get but to outright kill a HAV with just AV nades? only if the pilot stays there for too long with nothing running, shouldnt be 3nades and less than half health but once again can be proto AV nades against our basic vehicles so we need our advanced/proto vehicles or temp remove proto AV

The first person to tell someone else that they are whining...releases a massive thread and qq's about AV being powerful lol

Thread is too long to read every single line but what I gathered is that this is another AV is too powerful and needs to be nerfed thread. From what I've skimmed through....I got that vehicles need to either stay where they are or get buffed. Even the LAVs ared fine according to this thread.

I dont use SLs but I use proto AV nades...and for a well fitted Madrugar or Gunnlogi, it takes about 6 Lai Dais to destroy it. Who knows what it will take to destroy a proto tank. With damage mods and passive dmg bonuses to SLs and Forges...they may do incredible damage and it is much easier to solo a tank with those weapons. But you dont get those bonuses with AV nades...they truly are a deterrent unless a tank decides to stand right in front of infantry. Because you can not solo a well-fitted tank without reloading. And if you need a team...then it's working as intended.

This is another issue that we can agree and disagree at the same time however, realize that CCP wants everyone on a balanced pay. You can't have someone getting say...18 kills and have only 200k isk compared to someone destroying 2 enforcers, made 3 kills(including the HAVs) and have 750k isk in their pockets that basicly just putting focus on AV tactics and not focusing on Infantry. Another thing to point out people who losses their enforcers or any expensive vehicle, and get small payout, basicly it's on them. They decide to bring out their vehicles on their cold hard isk. They should know what to expect from the other team. someone is going to fight back and when they do, that person should have a back up plan or to make themselves more safe go in a squad, communicate with them and let them know to back you up. Going in blind with an HAV Enforcer doesn't make you hard to kill unless you know whats going on in the field.

you know if I got a large sum of isk for blowing up that tank, it might actually be worth the 5 deaths I took getting ganked by infantry just trying to get in range of that one tank trolling my blue dots.

Continuing with the dropsuit VS vehicle thing,
i would like to point out that when dropsuits go from the basic frames to the

logistics assault scout or sentinel, these suits are all cheaper then the basic frames of the same level,

where vehicles are AGAIN the exact opposite and are much more expensive
when you enter assault logistics scout and enforcer,
mainly the enforcer which costs 1.2m just for the frame
and that's the BASIC frame so im terrified of how much the advanced/proto will cost

hopefully they reduce the price of the current enforcer and make the current price the cost of the advanced/proto enforcer

AV is alright the way it is.

The biggest problem is you have people using their Proto AV gear on advanced level tanks.

Once they release the Proto tanks, it should feel more balanced.

Likes and bump for summing up for the most part what is wrong with vehicle / av balance in uprising.

One thing that I'd like to see that would probably be the best equalizer for death taxis is that the amount of armor that a merc has left is transferred as incoming damage to the lav.

No

My Madrugar, which probably weighs more than an M1A1 Abrams, stops dead when I run someone over if I'm not on an incline. Why should a vehicle potentially 80 or more tons stop moving at all, or take damage when hitting something that's probably less than a ton?

For LAVs, well... you have physics to put up with.

IMO... If I can flip an overturned LAV so easily, then I should be able to shoulder block it in my heavy suit. LOL

I think the FG has better damage than the rail turret for the simple reason that the FG is carried by a merc that will be OHK by any rail turret, while the tank/installation, will take, on the average, 3 hits to kill. Breach FG, with the longest charge time, also renders the wielder immobile while it's charging/charged making them an easy target.

Reducing the FG damage by 50% will result in the FG getting few to no kills as by the time the FG wielder fires 4 shots and reloads, the tank is usually out of range for the 5th shot. BTW... FG range is 300.

Disregarding militia vehicles, there is no AV weapon that can OHK a HAV except, maybe, an officer breach if there is one. However, a direct hit by a rail turret always results in a OHK against any infantry, even heavies.

Base charge times for forge guns, between each shot, are...

Assault: 2.5sec
Standard: 3.5sec
Breach: 6sec

Large rail turret base times are...

Regulated/Standard: .3sec charge with a 1sec fire interval. Regulated has better tracking.
Compressed: .3sec charge with a 2.2sec fire interval.

So let's compare how many shots the large rail turret fires based on optimal base charge and fire of one shot from a FG if the two pulled the trigger at the same time.

Regulated/Standard Rail vs Assault FG: 3 shots.
Regulated/Standard Rail vs Standard FG: 4 shots.
Compressed Rail vs Breach FG: 3 shots.

The dynamic changes a bit if you go with the average of 3 forge shots to kill an HAV. I'll try to take into account managing heat on the rail turret.

Regulated/Standard Rail vs Assault FG: 6 shots.
Regulated/Standard Rail vs Standard FG: 8 shots.
Compressed Rail vs Breach FG: 8 shots.

So, when it comes to damage output over time, large rail tanks are way above FG not to mention that large rail turrets have twice the range of a FG.

CCP have really messed up the balancing by generally hitting everything or one side with a nerf bat while buffing the other side but also it doesnt help when one side has advanced/proto and the otherside has basic.

This has lead to massive imbalance between the 2 sides and whats even worse is that the balance between the 2 types of tanking (shield/armor) is just as unbalanced and vehicle users feel that they are forced to go into armor tanking whether they like it or not while pilots are completely screwed with each patch and build and are effectively flying a coffin.

Not to mention the whole argument about teamwork how it only takes 1 HAV driver to annoy a whole team yet the same HAV driver is asking for AV to use teamwork to kill his HAV instead of a solo monkey which whacks his 1.5mil HAV in 3shots while he sunk 10mil into vehicle skills and the AV guy barely did a quarter of it. You can see why the HAV guy gets pissed off and i don't blame him but also the AV guy is like 'well i should be able to if he's stupid enough' which is valid for stupid pilots anyways and then add in the real world argument that a RPG can disable and destroy a mulit million dollar tank/helicopter.

Excellent roundup of issues there. Its nice to see someone spending the time to do this properly. Good job.

I know you've heard it from me before (several times), but I'll say it again here because I think there's a real chance of someone at CCP reading this thread.



That is a very, very important point.

The balance argument between HAV drivers and infantry will go round and round forever, because the HAV drivers want the balance to be based on ISK and/or SP, whereas the infantry want it to be balanced on number of players. While these are not aligned there can't be balance.

I personally believe that HAV/AV can be balanced, and it should be balanced around teams of three on each side, with equal levels of ISK and SP as the baseline.

That means making the HAV require a crew of 3 to operate effectively (driver gets front gun, main gunner has a narrow field of view, top gunner becomes commander with a good view). It means HAVs get cheaper and AV gets more expensive, so that at each level (basic, advanced, proto) one loaded HAV costs about the same as 3 loaded AV suits, in both ISK and SP.


Once this is done, all your other points become much easier to work with in terms of fine tuning the balance. Without this, I suspect you'll be simply rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

Webifiers dont exist so no mention

Proxy mines no one seems to use, not my fault

As i said we dont have the stats for the AV nade on how much damage they do, i said that in my OP didnt you read it?

I win button yea it nice but proto AV is the I win button against basic vehicles, we could temp remove them until we get advanced/proto vehicles but that aint going to happen at all

So the challenger is afraid of teamwork and wants to solo that vehicle by the sounds of it or you just described a pub match

Yes it can move all the time i hope it should have an engine, unlimited ammo because we do not have a cargohold to store ammo and also we do not have clips for any turrets yet, kill a HAV for example 180 for the vehicle and 50 for each person inside so 330WP but if the tank has been alive for most of the match of course it will have more WP if its doing other things but AV should get WP for damage which i havnt added yet but the reward for AV in PC at least is denying the enemy vehicles parts of the map to support ther team

OHK i have never said, if anything i tend to get 2-3shotted where as in a tank battle between basic vehicles it can be anywhere from 5-10+ depending how good we are and what happens

Wow such a jumble of nonsense right there I don't know if I can counter your obviously flawless logic.

So just to clarify you don't want 1 AV equiped player, able to stand up to a tank, you want to further the tankers I win button-ness by making them stronger vs a team work based attempt to destroy them.... fair and balanced (sarcasm). [The funny is that I read someone saying that 4-5 guys throwing AV at the tank in less than a minute is too much.... yeah I hate when a blob of heavies with proto level repair tool support is destroying me..... nerf them CCP, make it so not more than 1 logi can repair one person] (again sarcasm).

Again, all vehicles I know of, use some things of a limited finite nature called gas and ammo... unless you think the germans lost N.Africa due to bad strategy back during WW II...... but that is RL again intruding on a VG. Imagine if a foot soldier could just strap that nano-hive to his back - why do we have to drop them on the ground again, and be able to chase your tank down without being tethered to 1 spot on the map. Tanks are 150WP and the fact is that you tankers can get out and in them faster than I can chuck grenades at it, so getting some of the other possible 150wp for kills is a luxury moment from players that got caught un-awares. Also I would ask CCP to look into how IF I destroyed 4 tanks and 9 LAV's with help from friends that my WP total was only 850-ish.... maybe with less frequency but it still happens more commonly with the Dropships.

I was inside a building when the orbital got me, how many tankers have lived thru one? Let's explore that dynamic since I forgot to mention it as a OHK... hrmm, why IF I am not in a vehicle don't I get extra points too for getting my SL a strike in the first place.

You are right I didn't bother to read all of it, I stopped reading when you stopped making sense... so I don't know, did you swing that judgemental pendellum the other way... what about basic or militia infantry being forced to fight against adv level tanks and vehicles..... the ultimate I win button.

Tanks were all powerful at times, and it took CCP getting their butts handed to them to realize that what looks good on paper doesn't always translate into good in practice or application.

AV is alright the way it is.

The biggest problem is you have people using their Proto AV gear on advanced level tanks.

Once they release the Proto tanks, it should feel more balanced.

it won't. Like I said-
(considering the fits are decent and not just halfassed)
Militia AV is the same damn thing as standard AV
Standard AV is an even match for Militia vehicles
Advanced AV is an even match for Standard Vehicles
Prototype AV beats everything, because the best vehicles are Standard Tech II

Once advanced vehicles come out, the system will be fine. Prototype vehicles, and AV might need a buff.

I can't wait to see the playercount after the next vehicle buff/AV nerf.

What I'm trying to get at is that probably 98% of all time spent in game across all players is in public matches. There's trouble ahead when the public matches get worse to make PC worthwhile.

Personally I think much could be improved by reducing the speed of HAVs and improving their HP accordingly. That way HAVs will be less annoyed by getting killed in 5 seconds by AV nades and AV users will be less annoyed by HAVs leisurely driving away from any harm while reaping kills on-the-go. I know that Amarr HAVs are still in the pipeline, but I think both current HAVs rely too much on their speed.

Go back to Call of Duty if you want vehicles to be useless.

Webifiers. The ability to tackle tanks is the first step to balance.

Webifire missiles or forge varients that do little or no damage but stop the vehicle for 1-3 seconds, webifier nades which stop them for 5-10 seconds.

Then you can have your HP buff/AV nerf.

Webifiers. The ability to tackle tanks is the first step to balance.

Webifire missiles or forge varients that do little or no damage but stop the vehicle for 1-3 seconds, webifier nades which stop them for 5-10 seconds.

Then you can have your HP buff/AV nerf.

We can't be adding that until we have ADV and PRO tanks with 8k and 11k HP, respectively.

8k and 11k? LOL

Seriously just no sir, ehp is fine, too fine in the case of LLAV, what you will get is some extra slots and cpu/pgrid.

8k and 11k? LOL

Seriously just no sir, ehp is fine, too fine in the case of LLAV, what you will get is some extra slots and cpu/pgrid.

The problem is with the idea that we have a driver, main gunner and 2 sub gunners if needed (optional gunners tbh not needed to run the tank in anyway) is that who skills up what?

Does the driver still have to skill up everything? he needs the hull and the mods but frankly he doesnt need the guns so that would mean the gunner needs the turrets but if the driver doesnt have them then how can he put on the gun

Frankly its far too much work to go down this road because of how complicated it would be, the driver still it would seem needs everything just to be able to fit it in the fitting screen because you cannot deploy anything in the field if you have something on it where the pre req have not been met

The only simplistic way of doing this is by seperating the main gun from the driver but still having the driver needing the skills for everything just so he can fit it, so he can deploy it in the field and then whoever jumps into the main gun, problem is johnny randoms jumps in and i cant kick his ass out or lock the vehicle to begin with. Maybe as a secondary measure the guy who will be in controll of the main gun needs to have turret skills also and up to the turret that the driver has so if driver has proto turrets the gunner will need to be skilled into proto turrets.

I would also ask for a buff to the 4man HAV if its going to take more ppl to control it or it could be made a seperate HAV to the ones we have, call it Heavy HAV with improved defences and the pilot can utilise his pilot suit with the vehicle to make it defensively/offensively better

Yep, there aren't any easy solutions, but I still firmly believe that you need to balance around number of players first, and then ISK/SP second.

The critical hard limit in Dust battles is number of players.

If you allow one player in a HAV to be significantly more effective than one player in any other role then there is only one place things can end up: 16 HAVs per side (has anyone ever brought 16 HAVs to a fight before, btw?)

Teams A and B are fighting, with 16 players each. Team A pulls out a HAV. To maintain parity, team B can switch one guy to a HAV, or switch three guys to AV.


I don't think any of the "tank crew" objections you raise are blockers, by the way, and I'm happy to go into detail if asked.

Some misinformation sir. Railguns have a 1.8 second fire interval. So this makes the Time to Fire 2.1 seconds. to the Assault forges 2.5.

Except the Assault does way more damage. And the firing time can be reduced with skills.

I would think that the forge gun MIGHT lose after having to reload except railguns have to cool down. (and forge guns can reduce their reload time via skills)

Yep, there aren't any easy solutions, but I still firmly believe that you need to balance around number of players first, and then ISK/SP second.

The critical hard limit in Dust battles is number of players.

If you allow one player in a HAV to be significantly more effective than one player in any other role then there is only one place things can end up: 16 HAVs per side (has anyone ever brought 16 HAVs to a fight before, btw?)

Teams A and B are fighting, with 16 players each. Team A pulls out a HAV. To maintain parity, team B can switch one guy to a HAV, or switch three guys to AV.


I don't think any of the "tank crew" objections you raise are blockers, by the way, and I'm happy to go into detail if asked.

Well I did have to use the data available to me which would be the specs from the in game info screens themselves. Those show a .3 second charge to the first shot that the rail turret fires with a 1 second refire rate. That's base. Still, changing the refire to 1.8, the rail turret still out damages a comparable forge gun when you put it down to damage over time. And I remind you that a rail turret is more accurate than a FG and will OHK any infantry, including a heavy. I do know that the LG rail turret works the same as the rail installations and they do fire their first shot at the end of the initial charge cycle, the second shot is fired at the end of the refire timer.

Which means more shield/armor. Sorry you can't figure that out.

But of course you don't want ADV and PRO tanks. Those would be too difficult to solo.

Am fine with pilots wanting to use cpu/pgrid for more ehp if they can fit the mods, not fine at all buffing ehp arbitrally. HAV is, lets face it, a crutch after all no point in throwing random boosts on them.

Am fine with pilots wanting to use cpu/pgrid for more ehp if they can fit the mods, not fine at all buffing ehp arbitrally. HAV is, lets face it, a crutch after all no point in throwing random boosts on them.

English the post was insightful as usual. Lot of good points. I started tanking again. Well the speed for armor isn't so bad, the buff to HP isn't that bad. The old enemies still remain, 180 Swarms, invisible swarms, Handheld FG > Tank Mounted Rails. The problem is the CPU and PG tbh. The skill tree has a lot of areas that only allow us to get to the next level without any bonuses. They could use those slots to introduce slight (not a lot) increase to CPU/PG bonus.

As you've mentioned, SOLO tanking and SOLO Av is not balancing. I see a lot of tankers crying, everyday all day. But i see some of them trying to kill infantry in front of a supply depot. Thats just stupid in my books. Don't see that many blaster tanks. Its almost close to none. All the tankers are on top of the hills with Railguns blowing up installations. What happened to the blaster on blaster tanking? Oh wait, can't see infantry properly, can't see swarms, getting shot by multiple wanna be railgun tankers.

Note: Spkr you are not a tanker. so don't speak on the elders' circle

Your comparing a 3man HAV to a 3man AV team

Problem here is that 3man HAV team is generally short range except the driver if hes got a railgun on the HAV, the 2 small turrets are effectively useless and unless they have sniper rifles they cant do long range, on the other hand the 3 AV guys can be all FG or SL and hit from distance where only the driver can shoot back, if the turret is blaster its just better to run away but even then aslong as they have a line of sight you will still get hit

In PC battles right now no one runs in the HAV with the driver, when AV hits it from long range and is only short range if you get in the thick of it like inside a compound, FG/SL are used in places that the HAV wont be able to hit

Its mostly why HAV drivers tend to argue about ISK and SP, because a 3 man HAV crew cannot hit the AV guys when they are generally out of reach

Now if we could have small turrets which could hit long range then maybe we would fill our small turrets up a bit more because we as drivers wouldnt have to feel that we need to run railgun all the time incase long range AV comes into play, we could switch up our tactics a little bit

One proto assault scrub should not be able to solo a tank,

The tree in general has alot of skills which are used for unlocking things but offer nothing for the SP spent

Take basic HAVs, the Gunlogi & Madrugar has nothing in bonuses, not even a racial bonus and same with all basic non specalist vehicles

Blaster tanking is not obsolete yet, its just that in your basic vehicle you have to get close to infantry who happen to throw AV nades like an NFL quaterback and deal with long range AV such as SL/FG which you have no chance of hitting and if its proto your next to dead

Am fine with pilots wanting to use cpu/pgrid for more ehp if they can fit the mods, not fine at all buffing ehp arbitrally. HAV is, lets face it, a crutch after all no point in throwing random boosts on them.

English the post was insightful as usual. Lot of good points. I started tanking again. Well the speed for armor isn't so bad, the buff to HP isn't that bad. The old enemies still remain, 180 Swarms, invisible swarms, Handheld FG > Tank Mounted Rails. The problem is the CPU and PG tbh. The skill tree has a lot of areas that only allow us to get to the next level without any bonuses. They could use those slots to introduce slight (not a lot) increase to CPU/PG bonus.

As you've mentioned, SOLO tanking and SOLO Av is not balancing. I see a lot of tankers crying, everyday all day. But i see some of them trying to kill infantry in front of a supply depot. Thats just stupid in my books. Don't see that many blaster tanks. Its almost close to none. All the tankers are on top of the hills with Railguns blowing up installations. What happened to the blaster on blaster tanking? Oh wait, can't see infantry properly, can't see swarms, getting shot by multiple wanna be railgun tankers.

Note: Spkr you are not a tanker. so don't speak on the elders' circle

Why not?

Why should one player with one set of kit not be able to solo one player with a different set of kit? Don't come back with "its a tank" because that isn't a valid game-play argument. Also, don't say "because of ISK or SP", because I don't believe those are significant limiting factors for a large portion of the player base any more. Is there a valid argument gameplay argument for "if I spec into this I will be significantly better than if I spec into anything else"?

Also, remember I'm not saying one infantry player should be able to solo a HAV whenever they want. I'm saying a 3 man AV team should be able to kill a 3 man tank crew 50% of the time.

What the hell crutch are you talking about? Have you ever tried tanking? Do you not realize just how effective swarms and AV grenades are (explosives)? They're the most popular AV in the game right now, wanna know why? Because it doesn't require any intelligence to use them, and they're basically fire and forget. They're the stupid man's anti-vehicle weapons. That's the first reason they're so popular. Wanna know the second reason they're so popular? Because the Madrugar gives you the best all-around options for tanking. Know what the Madrugar is? It's an armor tank. We can sacrifice defenses to make a glass cannon fit, or sacrifice offense for more defensive capabilities.

It's only reasonable and logical that ADV and PRO tanks have more HP than STD tanks. After all, that's how dropsuits work, is it not? How would you feel if all CCP did for dropsuits was keep them at basically the same level of health across STD, ADV and PRO levels, and told you that if you want more health, the only way you could get more is by modules?

The hell with the rules.

**** you

LOL if i'm not mistaken you are one of those LAV scrubs arent you

Oh scrubba dub , if i'm not mistaken most AR suits have the same base HP. The difference is in the number of slots and, CPU and PG

You mean to tell me you're not spec'd into the Limbus/Charybdis at all? No Saga or Methana?

I don't run assault at all. The only numbers I want to be familiar with at all are the numbers for AV weapons. If you had a brain, maybe you'd realize that.

Nope not even one. Unless the Gallente LAV skill to level 3 counts as anything. Didn't buy any of those. Don't need a LAV to kill someone LOL

But as i've mentioned before. You are polluting a wonderful thread. So try and learn something from English about tanking if you can. or else shut up and listen

Why not?

Why should one player with one set of kit not be able to solo one player with a different set of kit? Don't come back with "its a tank" because that isn't a valid game-play argument. Also, don't say "because of ISK or SP", because I don't believe those are significant limiting factors for a large portion of the player base any more. Is there a valid argument gameplay argument for "if I spec into this I will be significantly better than if I spec into anything else"?

Also, remember I'm not saying one infantry player should be able to solo a HAV whenever they want. I'm saying a 3 man AV team should be able to kill a 3 man tank crew 50% of the time.

Why not?

Why should one player with one set of kit not be able to solo one player with a different set of kit? Don't come back with "its a tank" because that isn't a valid game-play argument. Also, don't say "because of ISK or SP", because I don't believe those are significant limiting factors for a large portion of the player base any more. Is there a valid argument gameplay argument for "if I spec into this I will be significantly better than if I spec into anything else"?

Also, remember I'm not saying one infantry player should be able to solo a HAV whenever they want. I'm saying a 3 man AV team should be able to kill a 3 man tank crew 50% of the time.

You're a ******. Please, go back to Call of Duty. You don't understand the dynamics a tank brings to the field.
[quote=R F Gyro]Also, remember I'm not saying one infantry player should be able to solo a HAV whenever they want.[/quote\]
THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY!!!!! How the hell could you not see that? It's basically the same argument as 3 in a tank vs 3 with AV. Why should one guy with AV grenades be able to solo a tank? Can you answer that with any intelligence at all?

NO! A 3 man team of std forges should be able to kill a gunlogi 85% of the time. However, when you scale that up one level, it only takes one adv, or pro forge to solo a gunlogi, let alone officer forges. Vehicle balance is there, but we don't have the other side of the scale (ADV and PRO) tanks.

Why not?

Why should one player with one set of kit not be able to solo one player with a different set of kit? Don't come back with "its a tank" because that isn't a valid game-play argument. Also, don't say "because of ISK or SP", because I don't believe those are significant limiting factors for a large portion of the player base any more. Is there a valid argument gameplay argument for "if I spec into this I will be significantly better than if I spec into anything else"?

Also, remember I'm not saying one infantry player should be able to solo a HAV whenever they want. I'm saying a 3 man AV team should be able to kill a 3 man tank crew 50% of the time.

Generally we have the rock/paper and scissor scenario

Rock - Vehicles - Made to generally tank small arms fire and be fine from scissors

Paper - AV - Hurts Rock but is weak to scissors

Scissors - Infantry - Cuts a path through everything except rock



Not to mention the whole argument about teamwork how it only takes 1 HAV driver to annoy a whole team yet the same HAV driver is asking for AV to use teamwork to kill his HAV instead of a solo monkey which whacks his 1.5mil HAV in 3shots while he sunk 10mil into vehicle skills and the AV guy barely did a quarter of it. You can see why the HAV guy gets pissed off and i don't blame him but also the AV guy is like 'well i should be able to if he's stupid enough' which is valid for stupid pilots anyways and then add in the real world argument that a RPG can disable and destroy a mulit million dollar tank/helicopter.

Both sides get pissed off and think they are right and it becomes a **** throwing forum match and i have taken part in a fair few and nothing ever comes of it and it eventually gets lost in the forums and forgotten about.

The balance is one which will never truly happen but the only way to get it about right is if both sides can agree on a number of issues and for that to happen we need all the AV equipment which is going to be added and all the vehicles aswell but until that happens the next best step we can do is balance what we have and hopefully this thread can address a few issues and also solve a few too while hopefully adding some good ideas but expect bad ones aswell.

At this current time i have 14mil SP invested into vehicles, i have both sets of HAVs (excluding useless Enforcers), armor/shield DS, armor Logi DS and a Logi LAV but i have a tried out all vehicles and destroyed all vehicles with everything the game has to offer at one point or another through the varying builds and take part in all game modes including PC where basic vehicles go against proto AV.

I dont know it all but i know quite a bit and i know what pisses me off as vehicle pilot so if im slightly bias i can't help it but i try to be on the level with what i say and i try not to repeat myself but sometimes its needed because one thing can effect something else and so on until you come full circle.

Essentially dont turn this into a **** throwing thread, disagree yes but put why and in some detail and dont have posts like 'learn to fly' which are useless because in the end both sides dont get what they want and end up in a worse position from where they started from.

Its a long thread and there is no TLDR

Yup thats what i mentioned in Charlottes post too. We have quite a few skills without any bonuses to them at all.

1. Vehicle command : 1%CPU and 1%PG per level?
2. Race LAVS (Caldari/Gallente) 1% PG for Caldari, 1%CPU for Gallente or 2% Reduction on PG usage for Caldari/ 2% reduction in CPU usage for Gallente
3. HAV skill tree> 2% bonus to PG for Gallente... 2% Bonus to CPU for Caldari per level

it wouldn't be too OP and there would be some middle ground to it.

AV's are just a bit too much. I use them so i know how unfair it could be. Specially Swarms to Armor. Make it Proto AR suit with 2 Complex Damage mods + Swarms

I'm not saying a 3 man HAV crew is balanced with a 3 man AV team right now.

I'm saying that a 3 man HAV crew should be balanced with a 3 man AV team.

I'll support any initiative that achieves that. Once operating a tank requires 3 players I'm all in favour of buffing them, or nerfing AV, or whatever combination makes sense.

btw that rock paper scissors epic analogy dude. ok so im a triple spec and i run light av ina logi lav im also a logi just for backround ive tanked chromosome....build prior to chromosome in closed i was av ina logi lav. and before that again i delbed in tanks.
i have only specked dropships in uprising prior to my reset to double check they're worthlessness i also specked tanks bef reset to check the caldari side...so former shield tanker here.

LAV
1 the LOGI LAV is NOT overpowered. the mlt bpo bolach needs to be taken away upon graduation of the scrub academy..and maybe even made restockable at mlt isk prices. as far as lavs go the issues are as follows i feel ( without looking at base module differences and unbalances between shield and armor.) they need to have a damage counter for impacts with a body this should include dmg done to lav equal to a percentage of run over suits hp....percentage should be greater the heavier build the frame is (ex light 33% medium66%heavy99%) this should include resistances..and would effectively prevent lower end lavs from being able to murder taxi mass proto suits. as far as av goes...look at the limbus i eat limbus's for lunch PROTO AV the charybdis may seem op...but when the light forge gun or the plasma cannon (most useless av weapon ) gets reworked it will be great vs charybdis. and will balance the minor gaps between the 2 charybdis and limbus.
i think we should have a skill tree to enhance the reppers on the logi lavs. i think the turrent slot should be a logi turrent only and they should give us logi turrents both shield transporters and armor reppers of various ranges and effectiveness. the acceleration needs to be nerfed....the reason with a skill tree enhancing the reppers built in. maybe multi beems, range buffs,...and a logi team using a logi lav both running complementary suits like heavy/logi and dual specced/forge /swarm.when pulling up to a team currently its just to fast ..in pc it's unpractical if they make logi lavs more logi then they need to slow them down.
2 the scout lav...the above changes to logi make it useless as a speed tank unless specifically built for just that...so scout lav...should have no turrent....should instead have onboard resupply ....should have faster accel ..needs buff to that and top speed....
3 saga/methana.....these 2 should have an extra skill that increases the res drastically ...like 4% per lvl as well as a skill that enhances the turrents placed on you attack lav...and the back end should handle dmg equally as well as the front unlike all other lavs...the turrenter should have some form of bullet guard on his turrent...

now these are just some of my idea for lavs and balance i will have more input on the tanks side later today me and a few mates are gunna test proto av dmg vs armor and shield tanks both.

Vehicle command maybe skill wise

But for vehicles they should have race specific skills for ther tank so caldari shield and gal armor and they get like 5% to rep rate or something which benefits ther tank

No, the forge gun will out dmg the railgun every time. The forge has higher base damage, damage mods available, and basically the same TtF with the charge time skill and the reload skill.

Ishokune Assault Forge > Particle Canon. All day.

EDIT:

To anyone and everyone who claims vehicles are balanced/op/viable,

please take a look at PC.

How many HAVs do you see? How many Dropships?

Next to none?

Maybe it is because they suck.... hard.

What the hell crutch are you talking about? Have you ever tried tanking? Do you not realize just how effective swarms and AV grenades are (explosives)? They're the most popular AV in the game right now, wanna know why? Because it doesn't require any intelligence to use them, and they're basically fire and forget. They're the stupid man's anti-vehicle weapons. That's the first reason they're so popular. Wanna know the second reason they're so popular? Because the Madrugar gives you the best all-around options for tanking. Know what the Madrugar is? It's an armor tank. We can sacrifice defenses to make a glass cannon fit, or sacrifice offense for more defensive capabilities.

It's only reasonable and logical that ADV and PRO tanks have more HP than STD tanks. After all, that's how dropsuits work, is it not? How would you feel if all CCP did for dropsuits was keep them at basically the same level of health across STD, ADV and PRO levels, and told you that if you want more health, the only way you could get more is by modules?

Damage mods... Yeah...

Forge Gun Skills

Forge Gun Operation: Max 25% reduction to charge time.
Forge Gun Proficiency: Max 15% damage bonus.

Forge Gun Modules

Basic Heavy Damage Modifier: 3% damage bonus. (high slot)
Enhanced Heavy Damage Modifier: 5% damage bonus. (high slot)
Complex Heavy Damage Modifier: 10% damage bonus. (high slot)

Amarr Heavy Dropsuits

Basic
Frame A-1: 1 high, 2 low. 810 base EHP
Frame A/1-Series: 2 high, 2 low. 810 base EHP
Frame ak.0: 2 high, 3 low. 810 base EHP

Sentinel
Sentinel A-1: 1 high, 2 low. 810 base EHP
Sentinel A/1-Series: 1 high, 3 low. 810 base EHP
Sentinel ak.0: 1 high, 4 low. 810 base EHP

Turret Skills

Turret Operation: Max 10% damage bonus.
Large Hybrid Turret Operation: Max 5% damage bonus.

Hybrid Turret Modules

Large Hybrid Modules
High Throughput Field Stabilizer I: 7% damage bonus and 2% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
HT Linear Flux Stabilizer: 8% damage bonus and 3% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
High Throughput Field Stabilizer II: 10% damage bonus and 5% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)

Systemic Hybrid Modules (Affects both small and large hybrid turrets)
Systemic Field Stabilizer I: 3% damage bonus and 2% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
Systemic Vortex Stabilizer: 4% damage bonus and 3% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
Systemic Field Stabilizer II: 6% damage bonus and 5% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)

Fire Control System: 10% reduction to spool up time. (low slot)
Asynchronous Fire Control: 14% reduction to spool up time. (low slot)
Fire Control System II: 19% reduction to spool up time. (low slot)

Conscript Heat Sink: 10% reduction to heat build up. (low slot)
Modified Extruded Heat Sink: 14% reduction to heat build up. (low slot)
Vented Heat Sink: 19% reduction to heat build up. (low slot)

Active Heat Sink I: 20% reduction to heat build up. (high slot)
Azeotripic Coolant Pump: 36% reduction to heat build up. (high slot)
Active Heat Sink II: 52% reduction to heat build up. (high slot)

HAVs

Gunlogi: 5 high, 2 low. 4500 base EHP
Madrugar: 2 high, 5 low. 4750 base EHP
Falchion: 5 high, 2 low. 4432 base EHP
Vayu: 3 high, 5 low. 4672 base EHP

Let's do this as a hypothetical where both players are going for maximum damage output over 4 shots so no reload or overheat and using a two damage mod maximum.

Max skilled Forge Gunner.
Amarr Heavy Frame ak.0: 2 high, 3 low. 810 base EHP
Kaalakiota: 1584.0 (2138.4) damage, 3.5 (2.625) sec charge time.
Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 1663.2 (2245.32) damage, 2.5 (1.875) sec charge time.
Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun: 2773.0 (3743.55) damage, 6 (4.5) second charge (immobilized)
Complex Damage Mod x2: 20% damage bonus. (stacking penalty not included)
Total Bonus:

Kaalakiota: 8553.6 damage, 10.5 seconds. = 814.629 damage per second.
Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 8981.28 damage, 7.5 seconds. = 1197.504 damage per second.
Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun: 14974.2 damage, 18 seconds (immobilized) = 831.9 damage per second.

Max Skilled Tanker.
Vayu: 3 high, 5 low. 4672 base EHP
80GJ Regulated/Particle Cannon: 1438.9 (1942.515), .3 second spool, 1.8 (1.62) second refire.
80GJ Compressed Particle Cannon: 1798.7(2428.245), .3 second spool, 2.2 (1.98) second refire.
High Throughput Field Stabilizer II x2 20% damage bonus, 10% refire rate reduction. (stacking penalty not included)
Total Bonus: 35% damage bonus, 10% refire rate reduction.

80GJ Regulated/Particle Cannon: 7770.06, 5.16 seconds. = 1505.826 damage per second
80GJ Compressed Particle Cannon: 9712.98, 6.24seconds. = 1556.567 damage per second

So, as you can see proven via math, even with the fitting of only two damage mods each, the lowest proto rail turret still out DPSs the most powerful proto FG. If you still want to argue overheat vs reload, we can always drag out the passive and active heat sinks for your tank turrets.

Oh. And you always seem to forget that Rails have double the range of Forges and OHK even the most tanked out heavy.

No shield tank can fit dmg mods, heat sinks, or anything else.

I believe armor tanks can fit an active heat sink? I'm unsure.

A shield tank with your fittings would get one shotted by an AV grenade let alone a forge gun.

My armor tanking days died in Chromosome so I can't say for sure how they would fare.

Fine. Change it to a Falchion. The results would still be the same with two damage mods. Otherwise it looks like you're saying that shield tanks don't have low slots.

You can't use "rock, paper and scissors" in a FPS game .. or a least not in a literal way. You can make weapons more effecting against specific scenarios, but not "exclusive" to that scenarios. Having LAV's that instant kills infantry, its using Rock against Scissors in a "Literal" way... the problem is that LAV's should never be ROCK against infantry..it should be like this:

- Vehicle V's Vehicle

- Infantry V's Infantry

Two different scenarios.

Vehicle V's Infantry, should be "circumstantial " and not "literal".. in other words ;

The mounted gun in a LAV kills Infantry > Anti-vehicle infantry weapons kills LAV.

But not ;

LAV road kills infantry > Infantry kills LAV with grenades.

Nice try with stats

Remember tho every single HAV needs at least 1 PG mod on it

Gunlogis need it or its an extremely weak tank on it, same with madrugars to an extent

All HAV needs a PG mod and if you fit it for damage its a glass tank where as the heavy can be fit for damage and still have a decent tank against infantry where as the HAV has to give up all tank nearly and with the shield tank it cant put on a heat sink unless it loses resistances

The heavy FG doesnt have to give up anything, it can have tank and damage on the same suit, you cannot do that with a HAV we have to give up something to do one or the other, we can do a halfway fit but its neither one or the other and is still weak

How you fit a tank is your choice, just because you don't fit two damage mods, doesn't mean you can't. Besides, the top proto sentinel suits only have one high so their bonuse would be halved still giving the rail tank the DPS advantage.

You obviously don't have experience as a heavy FG wielder in an infantry encounter. The majority of the time, the FG wielder dies in a close encounter with infantry. If I ever get to where I can OHK proto fit rail tank, without having to worry about getting OHKed by said tank, then I'll concede that you have a valid point. Till then, while I'm highly vulnerable to every battlefield threat, and my chosen target takes three or more shots to take down, you've got nothing to stand on.

Heavy FG is easy, either run around in a LAV and hop out at a place where you have a clear LOS and the suprise and then pop back in move again or get up high

OHK a tank is unlickly unless its already too a fair amount of damage since FG/SL can easy do 3k damage and a Proto rail should always OHK infantry the problem is hitting you, as for the proto FG they take 3 shots or less to kill any tank atm

Also as a heavy you have a sidearm slot for a reason to defend yourself, its not hard playing as a heavy just moving around is

Plus as a heavy you can add damage mods and tank, a HAV cannot do that ever due to restrictions and compromises and the whole 'How you fit a tank is your choice, just because you don't fit two damage mods, doesn't mean you can't' is pure BS and just shows you know nothing about vehicles, yes we can fit 2 damage mods on but we have to give up tank/resistances so we are weaker to everything else but a heavy suit doesnt have to do **** because damage mods are mid slots and the tank is low where it doesnt effect anything

So what you're saying is that because a heavy isn't useless against an HAV, where even the basic large rail turret can OHK, it's over powered. I get it. And that you believe that a sidearm is effective defense against all forms of infantry is evident. And forbid that the heavy do something so OP as to utilize intelligent tactics. And the fact that I watch rail tanks effectively snipe infantry from behind their red line all day with high accuracy then read your complaint shows me that you are a poor tanker, poor gunner, or both.

You have given me many smiles and laughs at your apparent belief that the heavy with a FG is a more effective battlefield asset than a well piloted rail tank.

I never said it was OP you idiot but it is clearly not as bad as you are making out

The FG does more base damage than a proto vehicle mounted railgun which has a massive tank looking shape to shoot at while the HAV pilot can only guess at where the little pixelatedAV guy is which needs a direct hit to kill him since splash got nerfed

Sidearm slot ******* use it at least

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA where did i say that the FG is a more effective battlefield weapon than a tank?

I swear you just see what you want and pull handfulls of **** out of your arse and smear it on the screen

How you fit a tank is your choice, just because you don't fit two damage mods, doesn't mean you can't. Besides, the top proto sentinel suits only have one high so their bonuse would be halved still giving the rail tank the DPS advantage.

You obviously don't have experience as a heavy FG wielder in an infantry encounter. The majority of the time, the FG wielder dies in a close encounter with infantry. If I ever get to where I can OHK proto fit rail tank, without having to worry about getting OHKed by said tank, then I'll concede that you have a valid point. Till then, while I'm highly vulnerable to every battlefield threat, and my chosen target takes three or more shots to take down, you've got nothing to stand on.

>How you fit a tank is your choice.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Has never used a tank, or at least not since uprising. You literally get NO say in anything.

I ALWAYS drive my LLAV with a militia heavy suit and a militia forge gun. (Dropships are too easy to pass this up). I never have issue taking down my enemy. I almost always play with my best friend too. If we see a tank and im cruising in my LAV, I pick him up, drive up right behind said tank, and pop him easily. Me with militia AV and my friend with ADV.

Me and my buddy have a good amount of experience popping tanks (me in militia gear, lololololol. I shouldn't be killing tanks).

So you're implying that there's some fitting nutzi standing over every tanker's shoulder every time they go to fitting to make sure it's fit just so with no variation allowed. Or do you mean to imply that the tanks come pre-fit and no alterations are allowed? It looked to me that it was always the tankers choice how to fit their tanks good or bad.

The Forge is meant to take down heavy armored vehicles. That you and your buddy teamed up on a tank and took it out is great. I'm usually the only FG alternative to AV grenades and swarms in the matches I've played in. So if a Forge, even a militia one, shouldn't be killing tanks, then nothing should kill tanks and the entire match should just be a free fire shooting gallery for tankers. Thankfully, it's not like that.

Gibberish

The discussion was apparently based on the false assumption that a forge gun out damages a large rail turret, not the tactics and fittings of the mercs using them. On a per shot basis, you're right. But on a damage output over time, you're completely wrong.

People shouldn't be SOLOing tanks.

DPS over time your maths are wrong

The compressed particle rail cannot fire 4 shots, it can only fire 3 then it overheats so the time it takes to fire 4 shots is even longer unless you use a heat sink if you can fit it on, by the time its stopped overheating the FG has reloaded and is firing again

But lets be honest here, damage per second means nothing at all because you cant take comfort knowing that your tank can spit out more yet you can be dead in 3 shots anyways so that means jack ****

DPS only matters between tanks because we are so weak to each other and we can end up firing 10shots at each other but if proto AV gets involved then someone is ******

Its about how hard it hits, if it takes 3k of your tanks health in a single shot currently all basic vehicles are ****** against proto AV because dun dun dun we dont have advanced/proto vehicles

Your entire stat argument was flawed, you only picked what you wanted and totally ignored the vehicle side of things because you have never skilled up into anything vehicle wise and all you prob use is the milita LAV

People keep saying this, without any justification.

While a tank can be operated solo, I see no valid game balance reason why infantry shouldn't be able to kill them solo.

As I see it, you have three options here:-

1. Provide a game balance justification for your statement that people should not be soloing tanks
2. Accept that game balance requires 1 player in a tank to be about equal to 1 player not in a tank, and soloing is OK
3. Require multiple people to operate a tank, and the same number of people to counter it

Option 3 means infantry can't solo a tank (which is what you want) but we still have a balanced game. It is clearly the best option as far as I'm concerned.

You're the reason this is AR 514. Go home.

You people think that tanks should be taken solo with ease. This is why tanks suck in PC. This is why everything but ARs suck in PC.

You're the reason this is AR 514. Go home.

You people think that tanks should be taken solo with ease. This is why tanks suck in PC. This is why everything but ARs suck in PC.

The breach variants are the only Forges capable of getting near, and breaking, 3k. On top of that, the breach variants have the longest charge times and completely immobilize the wielder. If you're dieing to a solo breach then the wielder got into a good position and caught you by surprise. As for my "flawed" argument, I compared on max skills and available mods for both, not what has been accepted as the "Must be fitted this way" ideology. It's not my problem if you can't accept the results of a balanced comparison. And you apparently still feel that a rail tank with twice the range, more mobility (don't confuse it with agility), Higher accuracy, and able to OHK anyone in their sights makes it underpowered.

Am I missing something here? The only times I see an av nade take out a tank is on the milltia variants. If your multimillion dollar tanks are getting destroyed by av nades, your doing it wrong. Also lol at av nades being an "exploit".

More gibberish

You can jump with the breach

Max skills and mods but really you know nothing about vehicles or AV since your comparing a FG with tank and damage with a HAV with no tank but damage and then saying well its your choice but you have already picked the choices for your 'balanced comparision' which is lol worthy

Balanced lol its anything but

A FG in a LAV has more mobility, as for tank mobility ye if its going straight and on a road and not going over bumpy terrian because ya know enviromental damage lol

Higher accuracy lol, the railgun has to hit dead on and in its a long shot aim slightly above the target because of shell drop and the target has to be stood still because splash is meh and next to nonexistant, it aint the railgun with the higher accuracy its the pilot who using the damn thing

FG gets to aim at a massive target, no shell drop, no overheat, can do more base damage than a vehicle prototype railgun, sometimes i wish i could just put on a FG for my turret

Packed Lai Dai do insane damage.

You are missing something here.

Yes, yes. I know. The fearsome bunny hopping breach forge. Seriously, you need to stop making me laugh so hard. It's hard to type at times.

A heavy in an LAV I've seen. I do it to get from place to place because I can't run like a scout. At least I don't play murder taxi.

Shell drop is a constant. I see tankers landing shells on people all the time. Same with travel time. Forge does have scatter to their shots. I've experienced it. Times when the HAV, LAV, even an installation is filling a significant portion of my aim box and still, the shot goes high and to the side or hits the ground between the target and myself.

If you had a turret equivalent to the forge, you'd QQ about the way it shakes while it's charging/charged, then you'd QQ about it not being very accurate when you try to shoot infantry. You might also QQ about the time between shots and the max effective range of 300 meters.

What this finally comes down to is that neither one of us will change our minds so this conversation, that you've been treating like a personal affront to your ego, is at a stalemate.

Why not?

Why should one player with one set of kit not be able to solo one player with a different set of kit? Don't come back with "its a tank" because that isn't a valid game-play argument. Also, don't say "because of ISK or SP", because I don't believe those are significant limiting factors for a large portion of the player base any more. Is there a valid argument gameplay argument for "if I spec into this I will be significantly better than if I spec into anything else"?

Also, remember I'm not saying one infantry player should be able to solo a HAV whenever they want. I'm saying a 3 man AV team should be able to kill a 3 man tank crew 50% of the time.

actually it makes perfect sense that a master av can solo any tank atm...think about it....if you run into a sntd suit in dust..your ina proto suit..they're gun game may even be a bit better...but its just more likely your gunna scrub em up....its called proto stomping beating the crap out of people with lesser gear. tanks have no gear above stnd...ive seen the so called adv havs..and me asa proto av ive quesynced witha friend and hit a adv hav with adv av.....the need a slight buff... once tankers are given they're proto's it will most likely take a combo of heavy av and light av to control the field....caldari proto hav would not be soloable by 1 proto swarm..2-3 man av teams....balance

This^

It's hard to say tanks are UP when we're missing more than half of them.

Generally we have the rock/paper and scissor scenario

Rock - Vehicles - Made to generally tank small arms fire and be fine from scissors

Paper - AV - Hurts Rock but is weak to scissors

Scissors - Infantry - Cuts a path through everything except rock

Problem is everyone hates each other and doesnt want to use paper to destroy rock and think they should be able to do it with scissors while rock thinks it should take a group of paper to kill it while paper wants to do it solo.

CCP have really messed up the balancing by generally hitting everything or one side with a nerf bat while buffing the other side but also it doesnt help when one side has advanced/proto and the otherside has basic.

This has lead to massive imbalance between the 2 sides and whats even worse is that the balance between the 2 types of tanking (shield/armor) is just as unbalanced and vehicle users feel that they are forced to go into armor tanking whether they like it or not while pilots are completely screwed with each patch and build and are effectively flying a coffin.

Not to mention the whole argument about teamwork how it only takes 1 HAV driver to annoy a whole team yet the same HAV driver is asking for AV to use teamwork to kill his HAV instead of a solo monkey which whacks his 1.5mil HAV in 3shots while he sunk 10mil into vehicle skills and the AV guy barely did a quarter of it. You can see why the HAV guy gets pissed off and i don't blame him but also the AV guy is like 'well i should be able to if he's stupid enough' which is valid for stupid pilots anyways and then add in the real world argument that a RPG can disable and destroy a mulit million dollar tank/helicopter.

Both sides get pissed off and think they are right and it becomes a **** throwing forum match and i have taken part in a fair few and nothing ever comes of it and it eventually gets lost in the forums and forgotten about.

The balance is one which will never truly happen but the only way to get it about right is if both sides can agree on a number of issues and for that to happen we need all the AV equipment which is going to be added and all the vehicles aswell but until that happens the next best step we can do is balance what we have and hopefully this thread can address a few issues and also solve a few too while hopefully adding some good ideas but expect bad ones aswell.

At this current time i have 14mil SP invested into vehicles, i have both sets of HAVs (excluding useless Enforcers), armor/shield DS, armor Logi DS and a Logi LAV but i have a tried out all vehicles and destroyed all vehicles with everything the game has to offer at one point or another through the varying builds and take part in all game modes including PC where basic vehicles go against proto AV.

I dont know it all but i know quite a bit and i know what pisses me off as vehicle pilot so if im slightly bias i can't help it but i try to be on the level with what i say and i try not to repeat myself but sometimes its needed because one thing can effect something else and so on until you come full circle.

Essentially dont turn this into a **** throwing thread, disagree yes but put why and in some detail and dont have posts like 'learn to fly' which are useless because in the end both sides dont get what they want and end up in a worse position from where they started from.

Its a long thread and there is no TLDR

Like i said we dont even know the damage values of AV nades to begin with

Packed AV does what 1200 or so, what the hell does proto do?

I put down 25-50% as a really rough estimate but until we get exact damage numbers then we cant really say but they are not legitimate AV, they are ther a deterent for infantry to carry and also to help out as they defend ther AV guys from infantry

They can kill a LAV fine and put some hurt and maybe even get to kill the MAVs we get but to outright kill a HAV with just AV nades? only if the pilot stays there for too long with nothing running, shouldnt be 3nades and less than half health but once again can be proto AV nades against our basic vehicles so we need our advanced/proto vehicles or temp remove proto AV

You said breach FG makes you immobile, immobile means you cannot move at all but you can jump when using the breach FG which is movement - That is a fact

Shell drop can be inconsistant, i can aim at someone and they not move and sometimes it misses, thats if the railgun doesnt misfire or even move slightly to the right after each shot

FG barely shakes, its accurate whenever ive used it

A stalemate lol ive took apart all of statements including the one with stats

But when we get proto tanks this whole debate will just spring up again.

How is it balanced when it takes 3 players (with AV) to kill one player (in a HAV)? How does this not lead to everyone rolling around in tanks?

HAV's dont have any countermeasures to av weapons like tanks do in real life. where are our smoke grenades, flares, and chaff? We need smoke to conceal ourselves from forge guns, chaff or flares to defend against swarm launchers. I'd even go so far as to make smoke grenades keep swarm launchers from locking onto vehicles concealed by smoke.

You obviously don't have experience as a heavy FG wielder in an infantry encounter. The majority of the time, the FG wielder dies in a close encounter with infantry. If I ever get to where I can OHK proto fit rail tank, without having to worry about getting OHKed by said tank, then I'll concede that you have a valid point. Till then, while I'm highly vulnerable to every battlefield threat, and my chosen target takes three or more shots to take down, you've got nothing to stand on.

Your immaturity and inability to understand your own implications only moves me to more fervent laughter. The fact that you can't comprehend a statistical comparison shows that you have difficulty with comprehension. Either that or you're in the same genetic pool as the "chosen" people with the fallacious belief that science is false, and everything was created six thousand years ago, even though they have mountains of evidence to the contrary put before them.

The discussion was apparently based on the false assumption that a forge gun out damages a large rail turret, not the tactics and fittings of the mercs using them. On a per shot basis, you're right. But on a damage output over time, you're completely wrong.

So you're implying that there's some fitting nutzi standing over every tanker's shoulder every time they go to fitting to make sure it's fit just so with no variation allowed. Or do you mean to imply that the tanks come pre-fit and no alterations are allowed? It looked to me that it was always the tankers choice how to fit their tanks good or bad.

, Higher accuracy, and able to OHK anyone in their sights makes it underpowered.

actually it makes perfect sense that a master av can solo any tank atm...think about it....if you run into a sntd suit in dust..your ina proto suit..they're gun game may even be a bit better...but its just more likely your gunna scrub em up....its called proto stomping beating the crap out of people with lesser gear. tanks have no gear above stnd...ive seen the so called adv havs..and me asa proto av ive quesynced witha friend and hit a adv hav with adv av.....the need a slight buff... once tankers are given they're proto's it will most likely take a combo of heavy av and light av to control the field....caldari proto hav would not be soloable by 1 proto swarm..2-3 man av teams....balance

So you want it to be Tank 514? I haven't seen any suggestions for an alternate balance, only calls for changes to make all AV useless.

But when we get proto tanks this whole debate will just spring up again.

How is it balanced when it takes 3 players (with AV) to kill one player (in a HAV)? How does this not lead to everyone rolling around in tanks?

Am I missing something here? The only times I see an av nade take out a tank is on the milltia variants. If your multimillion dollar tanks are getting destroyed by av nades, your doing it wrong. Also lol at av nades being an "exploit".

AV grenade spam is deadly to pretty much any vehicle that gets within throw range. Especially if the tossers are near a supply depot or nano hives. This is one of the times when I do agree that this type of AV is too effective.

But when we get proto tanks this whole debate will just spring up again.

How is it balanced when it takes 3 players (with AV) to kill one player (in a HAV)? How does this not lead to everyone rolling around in tanks?

your proto hav is gunna cost you somewhere between 2-8 million isk...my proto av rig costs me 500 k .....of course there will always be the people whining about tanks being op...and when proto tanks come out there will be thousands of scrubs crying because they cant solo one with adv gear...i on the other hand look forward to the day where i might actually need help to kill a tank

My basic fit with a proto turret is 1.7mil

If i used an enforcer its 2.9mil maybe 3mil due to extra slot

Advanced i can see will push it to 5mil probs and proto getting close to 10mil ISK fully fitted while that proto AV fit is 500k

Not too mention that will be millions of SP needed to use proto vehicles

I will look forward to the day when dumb ass randoms cant dent it with milita AV and it takes at least a couple of proto guys to hurt it

My basic fit with a proto turret is 1.7mil

If i used an enforcer its 2.9mil maybe 3mil due to extra slot

Advanced i can see will push it to 5mil probs and proto getting close to 10mil ISK fully fitted while that proto AV fit is 500k

Not too mention that will be millions of SP needed to use proto vehicles

I will look forward to the day when dumb ass randoms cant dent it with milita AV and it takes at least a couple of proto guys to hurt it

How many vehicle pilots are ther now who have 90% of ther SP into vehicles?

Its not many at all

I dont include ambush tankers either because they get stomped everytime in skirmish hence why they in ambush

Vehicles are an SP/ISK sink when compared with AV

AV is cheap and easy its why more players have adv/proto AV and they can skill it up along with ther suit and main weapon

Vehicles have been nerfed what 3-4 builds in a row while AV got buffs and now that the SP required has gone up by a large amount andyou dont see any new tankers to begin with and if anyone does see them in milita tanks or weak fits they are blown up by AV or a more experienced tanker

You see packs of AV players more than packs of tanks

Don't balance on ISK alone. That approach breaks badly once everyone gets rich.

You are still one guy in your tank. Requiring two guys to take you out is not balanced.

Make a tank require 3 players to operate it; make it require 3 players to kill it. Make tanks cheaper and AV gear more expensive: 1.5m for a top-end fitted HAV, and 500K for a top-end fitted AV suit.

Now it requires 3 players in proto AV gear to have a reasonable chance of killing your proto tank, but no-one QQs because it is balanced.

Tell me how you feel when a main weapon is able to lock on to your dropsuit. I'm still winning out some 1 v 1 when I have a militia forge gun. Dunno what you're doing wrong.

You don't understand that a round guy with a glowing blue ball is a more difficult target to hit than a damn tank. I don't think he's the one that's stupid.

Your use of grammar reminds me of pseudo-intellectual high school seniors trying to sound smart and informed. It's not working.

You didn't get the previous point. We're always trying to decide whether we want more damage output, or more defenses. You can get a heavy with an Ishukone forge, one damage mod, then two plates and two reppers. That's a better, sneakier alternative to a tank.

You're missing that point, too. We one hit kill things with less than 1000 HP, because our rail turrets cause damage at over 1000 HP per shot. I don't see what your problem is with that.

How pathetically easy it is to use swarms and AV grenades makes tanks useless. We're calling for balance between those. I don't care if they buff the forge guns at all, they're fine because they require aim. You don't need to aim AV grenades or swarm launchers.

Infantry gets two weapons that home in on vehicles, while vehicle users get remote modules that are difficult to use. Maybe we should get mass driver turrets instead, or something that launches fused locus grenades...