>How you fit a tank is your choice.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Has never used a tank, or at least not since uprising. You literally get NO say in anything.

I ALWAYS drive my LLAV with a militia heavy suit and a militia forge gun. (Dropships are too easy to pass this up). I never have issue taking down my enemy. I almost always play with my best friend too. If we see a tank and im cruising in my LAV, I pick him up, drive up right behind said tank, and pop him easily. Me with militia AV and my friend with ADV.

Me and my buddy have a good amount of experience popping tanks (me in militia gear, lololololol. I shouldn't be killing tanks).

So you're implying that there's some fitting nutzi standing over every tanker's shoulder every time they go to fitting to make sure it's fit just so with no variation allowed. Or do you mean to imply that the tanks come pre-fit and no alterations are allowed? It looked to me that it was always the tankers choice how to fit their tanks good or bad.

The Forge is meant to take down heavy armored vehicles. That you and your buddy teamed up on a tank and took it out is great. I'm usually the only FG alternative to AV grenades and swarms in the matches I've played in. So if a Forge, even a militia one, shouldn't be killing tanks, then nothing should kill tanks and the entire match should just be a free fire shooting gallery for tankers. Thankfully, it's not like that.

Gibberish

The discussion was apparently based on the false assumption that a forge gun out damages a large rail turret, not the tactics and fittings of the mercs using them. On a per shot basis, you're right. But on a damage output over time, you're completely wrong.

People shouldn't be SOLOing tanks.

DPS over time your maths are wrong

The compressed particle rail cannot fire 4 shots, it can only fire 3 then it overheats so the time it takes to fire 4 shots is even longer unless you use a heat sink if you can fit it on, by the time its stopped overheating the FG has reloaded and is firing again

But lets be honest here, damage per second means nothing at all because you cant take comfort knowing that your tank can spit out more yet you can be dead in 3 shots anyways so that means jack ****

DPS only matters between tanks because we are so weak to each other and we can end up firing 10shots at each other but if proto AV gets involved then someone is ******

Its about how hard it hits, if it takes 3k of your tanks health in a single shot currently all basic vehicles are ****** against proto AV because dun dun dun we dont have advanced/proto vehicles

Your entire stat argument was flawed, you only picked what you wanted and totally ignored the vehicle side of things because you have never skilled up into anything vehicle wise and all you prob use is the milita LAV

People keep saying this, without any justification.

While a tank can be operated solo, I see no valid game balance reason why infantry shouldn't be able to kill them solo.

As I see it, you have three options here:-

1. Provide a game balance justification for your statement that people should not be soloing tanks
2. Accept that game balance requires 1 player in a tank to be about equal to 1 player not in a tank, and soloing is OK
3. Require multiple people to operate a tank, and the same number of people to counter it

Option 3 means infantry can't solo a tank (which is what you want) but we still have a balanced game. It is clearly the best option as far as I'm concerned.

You're the reason this is AR 514. Go home.

You people think that tanks should be taken solo with ease. This is why tanks suck in PC. This is why everything but ARs suck in PC.

You're the reason this is AR 514. Go home.

You people think that tanks should be taken solo with ease. This is why tanks suck in PC. This is why everything but ARs suck in PC.

The breach variants are the only Forges capable of getting near, and breaking, 3k. On top of that, the breach variants have the longest charge times and completely immobilize the wielder. If you're dieing to a solo breach then the wielder got into a good position and caught you by surprise. As for my "flawed" argument, I compared on max skills and available mods for both, not what has been accepted as the "Must be fitted this way" ideology. It's not my problem if you can't accept the results of a balanced comparison. And you apparently still feel that a rail tank with twice the range, more mobility (don't confuse it with agility), Higher accuracy, and able to OHK anyone in their sights makes it underpowered.

Am I missing something here? The only times I see an av nade take out a tank is on the milltia variants. If your multimillion dollar tanks are getting destroyed by av nades, your doing it wrong. Also lol at av nades being an "exploit".

More gibberish

You can jump with the breach

Max skills and mods but really you know nothing about vehicles or AV since your comparing a FG with tank and damage with a HAV with no tank but damage and then saying well its your choice but you have already picked the choices for your 'balanced comparision' which is lol worthy

Balanced lol its anything but

A FG in a LAV has more mobility, as for tank mobility ye if its going straight and on a road and not going over bumpy terrian because ya know enviromental damage lol

Higher accuracy lol, the railgun has to hit dead on and in its a long shot aim slightly above the target because of shell drop and the target has to be stood still because splash is meh and next to nonexistant, it aint the railgun with the higher accuracy its the pilot who using the damn thing

FG gets to aim at a massive target, no shell drop, no overheat, can do more base damage than a vehicle prototype railgun, sometimes i wish i could just put on a FG for my turret

Packed Lai Dai do insane damage.

You are missing something here.

Yes, yes. I know. The fearsome bunny hopping breach forge. Seriously, you need to stop making me laugh so hard. It's hard to type at times.

A heavy in an LAV I've seen. I do it to get from place to place because I can't run like a scout. At least I don't play murder taxi.

Shell drop is a constant. I see tankers landing shells on people all the time. Same with travel time. Forge does have scatter to their shots. I've experienced it. Times when the HAV, LAV, even an installation is filling a significant portion of my aim box and still, the shot goes high and to the side or hits the ground between the target and myself.

If you had a turret equivalent to the forge, you'd QQ about the way it shakes while it's charging/charged, then you'd QQ about it not being very accurate when you try to shoot infantry. You might also QQ about the time between shots and the max effective range of 300 meters.

What this finally comes down to is that neither one of us will change our minds so this conversation, that you've been treating like a personal affront to your ego, is at a stalemate.

Why not?

Why should one player with one set of kit not be able to solo one player with a different set of kit? Don't come back with "its a tank" because that isn't a valid game-play argument. Also, don't say "because of ISK or SP", because I don't believe those are significant limiting factors for a large portion of the player base any more. Is there a valid argument gameplay argument for "if I spec into this I will be significantly better than if I spec into anything else"?

Also, remember I'm not saying one infantry player should be able to solo a HAV whenever they want. I'm saying a 3 man AV team should be able to kill a 3 man tank crew 50% of the time.

actually it makes perfect sense that a master av can solo any tank atm...think about it....if you run into a sntd suit in dust..your ina proto suit..they're gun game may even be a bit better...but its just more likely your gunna scrub em up....its called proto stomping beating the crap out of people with lesser gear. tanks have no gear above stnd...ive seen the so called adv havs..and me asa proto av ive quesynced witha friend and hit a adv hav with adv av.....the need a slight buff... once tankers are given they're proto's it will most likely take a combo of heavy av and light av to control the field....caldari proto hav would not be soloable by 1 proto swarm..2-3 man av teams....balance

This^

It's hard to say tanks are UP when we're missing more than half of them.

Generally we have the rock/paper and scissor scenario

Rock - Vehicles - Made to generally tank small arms fire and be fine from scissors

Paper - AV - Hurts Rock but is weak to scissors

Scissors - Infantry - Cuts a path through everything except rock

Problem is everyone hates each other and doesnt want to use paper to destroy rock and think they should be able to do it with scissors while rock thinks it should take a group of paper to kill it while paper wants to do it solo.

CCP have really messed up the balancing by generally hitting everything or one side with a nerf bat while buffing the other side but also it doesnt help when one side has advanced/proto and the otherside has basic.

This has lead to massive imbalance between the 2 sides and whats even worse is that the balance between the 2 types of tanking (shield/armor) is just as unbalanced and vehicle users feel that they are forced to go into armor tanking whether they like it or not while pilots are completely screwed with each patch and build and are effectively flying a coffin.

Not to mention the whole argument about teamwork how it only takes 1 HAV driver to annoy a whole team yet the same HAV driver is asking for AV to use teamwork to kill his HAV instead of a solo monkey which whacks his 1.5mil HAV in 3shots while he sunk 10mil into vehicle skills and the AV guy barely did a quarter of it. You can see why the HAV guy gets pissed off and i don't blame him but also the AV guy is like 'well i should be able to if he's stupid enough' which is valid for stupid pilots anyways and then add in the real world argument that a RPG can disable and destroy a mulit million dollar tank/helicopter.

Both sides get pissed off and think they are right and it becomes a **** throwing forum match and i have taken part in a fair few and nothing ever comes of it and it eventually gets lost in the forums and forgotten about.

The balance is one which will never truly happen but the only way to get it about right is if both sides can agree on a number of issues and for that to happen we need all the AV equipment which is going to be added and all the vehicles aswell but until that happens the next best step we can do is balance what we have and hopefully this thread can address a few issues and also solve a few too while hopefully adding some good ideas but expect bad ones aswell.

At this current time i have 14mil SP invested into vehicles, i have both sets of HAVs (excluding useless Enforcers), armor/shield DS, armor Logi DS and a Logi LAV but i have a tried out all vehicles and destroyed all vehicles with everything the game has to offer at one point or another through the varying builds and take part in all game modes including PC where basic vehicles go against proto AV.

I dont know it all but i know quite a bit and i know what pisses me off as vehicle pilot so if im slightly bias i can't help it but i try to be on the level with what i say and i try not to repeat myself but sometimes its needed because one thing can effect something else and so on until you come full circle.

Essentially dont turn this into a **** throwing thread, disagree yes but put why and in some detail and dont have posts like 'learn to fly' which are useless because in the end both sides dont get what they want and end up in a worse position from where they started from.

Its a long thread and there is no TLDR

Like i said we dont even know the damage values of AV nades to begin with

Packed AV does what 1200 or so, what the hell does proto do?

I put down 25-50% as a really rough estimate but until we get exact damage numbers then we cant really say but they are not legitimate AV, they are ther a deterent for infantry to carry and also to help out as they defend ther AV guys from infantry

They can kill a LAV fine and put some hurt and maybe even get to kill the MAVs we get but to outright kill a HAV with just AV nades? only if the pilot stays there for too long with nothing running, shouldnt be 3nades and less than half health but once again can be proto AV nades against our basic vehicles so we need our advanced/proto vehicles or temp remove proto AV

You said breach FG makes you immobile, immobile means you cannot move at all but you can jump when using the breach FG which is movement - That is a fact

Shell drop can be inconsistant, i can aim at someone and they not move and sometimes it misses, thats if the railgun doesnt misfire or even move slightly to the right after each shot

FG barely shakes, its accurate whenever ive used it

A stalemate lol ive took apart all of statements including the one with stats

But when we get proto tanks this whole debate will just spring up again.

How is it balanced when it takes 3 players (with AV) to kill one player (in a HAV)? How does this not lead to everyone rolling around in tanks?

HAV's dont have any countermeasures to av weapons like tanks do in real life. where are our smoke grenades, flares, and chaff? We need smoke to conceal ourselves from forge guns, chaff or flares to defend against swarm launchers. I'd even go so far as to make smoke grenades keep swarm launchers from locking onto vehicles concealed by smoke.

You obviously don't have experience as a heavy FG wielder in an infantry encounter. The majority of the time, the FG wielder dies in a close encounter with infantry. If I ever get to where I can OHK proto fit rail tank, without having to worry about getting OHKed by said tank, then I'll concede that you have a valid point. Till then, while I'm highly vulnerable to every battlefield threat, and my chosen target takes three or more shots to take down, you've got nothing to stand on.