I don't run assault at all. The only numbers I want to be familiar with at all are the numbers for AV weapons. If you had a brain, maybe you'd realize that.

Nope not even one. Unless the Gallente LAV skill to level 3 counts as anything. Didn't buy any of those. Don't need a LAV to kill someone LOL

But as i've mentioned before. You are polluting a wonderful thread. So try and learn something from English about tanking if you can. or else shut up and listen

Why not?

Why should one player with one set of kit not be able to solo one player with a different set of kit? Don't come back with "its a tank" because that isn't a valid game-play argument. Also, don't say "because of ISK or SP", because I don't believe those are significant limiting factors for a large portion of the player base any more. Is there a valid argument gameplay argument for "if I spec into this I will be significantly better than if I spec into anything else"?

Also, remember I'm not saying one infantry player should be able to solo a HAV whenever they want. I'm saying a 3 man AV team should be able to kill a 3 man tank crew 50% of the time.

Why not?

Why should one player with one set of kit not be able to solo one player with a different set of kit? Don't come back with "its a tank" because that isn't a valid game-play argument. Also, don't say "because of ISK or SP", because I don't believe those are significant limiting factors for a large portion of the player base any more. Is there a valid argument gameplay argument for "if I spec into this I will be significantly better than if I spec into anything else"?

Also, remember I'm not saying one infantry player should be able to solo a HAV whenever they want. I'm saying a 3 man AV team should be able to kill a 3 man tank crew 50% of the time.

You're a ******. Please, go back to Call of Duty. You don't understand the dynamics a tank brings to the field.
[quote=R F Gyro]Also, remember I'm not saying one infantry player should be able to solo a HAV whenever they want.[/quote\]
THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY!!!!! How the hell could you not see that? It's basically the same argument as 3 in a tank vs 3 with AV. Why should one guy with AV grenades be able to solo a tank? Can you answer that with any intelligence at all?

NO! A 3 man team of std forges should be able to kill a gunlogi 85% of the time. However, when you scale that up one level, it only takes one adv, or pro forge to solo a gunlogi, let alone officer forges. Vehicle balance is there, but we don't have the other side of the scale (ADV and PRO) tanks.

Why not?

Why should one player with one set of kit not be able to solo one player with a different set of kit? Don't come back with "its a tank" because that isn't a valid game-play argument. Also, don't say "because of ISK or SP", because I don't believe those are significant limiting factors for a large portion of the player base any more. Is there a valid argument gameplay argument for "if I spec into this I will be significantly better than if I spec into anything else"?

Also, remember I'm not saying one infantry player should be able to solo a HAV whenever they want. I'm saying a 3 man AV team should be able to kill a 3 man tank crew 50% of the time.

Generally we have the rock/paper and scissor scenario

Rock - Vehicles - Made to generally tank small arms fire and be fine from scissors

Paper - AV - Hurts Rock but is weak to scissors

Scissors - Infantry - Cuts a path through everything except rock



Not to mention the whole argument about teamwork how it only takes 1 HAV driver to annoy a whole team yet the same HAV driver is asking for AV to use teamwork to kill his HAV instead of a solo monkey which whacks his 1.5mil HAV in 3shots while he sunk 10mil into vehicle skills and the AV guy barely did a quarter of it. You can see why the HAV guy gets pissed off and i don't blame him but also the AV guy is like 'well i should be able to if he's stupid enough' which is valid for stupid pilots anyways and then add in the real world argument that a RPG can disable and destroy a mulit million dollar tank/helicopter.

Both sides get pissed off and think they are right and it becomes a **** throwing forum match and i have taken part in a fair few and nothing ever comes of it and it eventually gets lost in the forums and forgotten about.

The balance is one which will never truly happen but the only way to get it about right is if both sides can agree on a number of issues and for that to happen we need all the AV equipment which is going to be added and all the vehicles aswell but until that happens the next best step we can do is balance what we have and hopefully this thread can address a few issues and also solve a few too while hopefully adding some good ideas but expect bad ones aswell.

At this current time i have 14mil SP invested into vehicles, i have both sets of HAVs (excluding useless Enforcers), armor/shield DS, armor Logi DS and a Logi LAV but i have a tried out all vehicles and destroyed all vehicles with everything the game has to offer at one point or another through the varying builds and take part in all game modes including PC where basic vehicles go against proto AV.

I dont know it all but i know quite a bit and i know what pisses me off as vehicle pilot so if im slightly bias i can't help it but i try to be on the level with what i say and i try not to repeat myself but sometimes its needed because one thing can effect something else and so on until you come full circle.

Essentially dont turn this into a **** throwing thread, disagree yes but put why and in some detail and dont have posts like 'learn to fly' which are useless because in the end both sides dont get what they want and end up in a worse position from where they started from.

Its a long thread and there is no TLDR

Yup thats what i mentioned in Charlottes post too. We have quite a few skills without any bonuses to them at all.

1. Vehicle command : 1%CPU and 1%PG per level?
2. Race LAVS (Caldari/Gallente) 1% PG for Caldari, 1%CPU for Gallente or 2% Reduction on PG usage for Caldari/ 2% reduction in CPU usage for Gallente
3. HAV skill tree> 2% bonus to PG for Gallente... 2% Bonus to CPU for Caldari per level

it wouldn't be too OP and there would be some middle ground to it.

AV's are just a bit too much. I use them so i know how unfair it could be. Specially Swarms to Armor. Make it Proto AR suit with 2 Complex Damage mods + Swarms

I'm not saying a 3 man HAV crew is balanced with a 3 man AV team right now.

I'm saying that a 3 man HAV crew should be balanced with a 3 man AV team.

I'll support any initiative that achieves that. Once operating a tank requires 3 players I'm all in favour of buffing them, or nerfing AV, or whatever combination makes sense.

btw that rock paper scissors epic analogy dude. ok so im a triple spec and i run light av ina logi lav im also a logi just for backround ive tanked chromosome....build prior to chromosome in closed i was av ina logi lav. and before that again i delbed in tanks.
i have only specked dropships in uprising prior to my reset to double check they're worthlessness i also specked tanks bef reset to check the caldari side...so former shield tanker here.

LAV
1 the LOGI LAV is NOT overpowered. the mlt bpo bolach needs to be taken away upon graduation of the scrub academy..and maybe even made restockable at mlt isk prices. as far as lavs go the issues are as follows i feel ( without looking at base module differences and unbalances between shield and armor.) they need to have a damage counter for impacts with a body this should include dmg done to lav equal to a percentage of run over suits hp....percentage should be greater the heavier build the frame is (ex light 33% medium66%heavy99%) this should include resistances..and would effectively prevent lower end lavs from being able to murder taxi mass proto suits. as far as av goes...look at the limbus i eat limbus's for lunch PROTO AV the charybdis may seem op...but when the light forge gun or the plasma cannon (most useless av weapon ) gets reworked it will be great vs charybdis. and will balance the minor gaps between the 2 charybdis and limbus.
i think we should have a skill tree to enhance the reppers on the logi lavs. i think the turrent slot should be a logi turrent only and they should give us logi turrents both shield transporters and armor reppers of various ranges and effectiveness. the acceleration needs to be nerfed....the reason with a skill tree enhancing the reppers built in. maybe multi beems, range buffs,...and a logi team using a logi lav both running complementary suits like heavy/logi and dual specced/forge /swarm.when pulling up to a team currently its just to fast ..in pc it's unpractical if they make logi lavs more logi then they need to slow them down.
2 the scout lav...the above changes to logi make it useless as a speed tank unless specifically built for just that...so scout lav...should have no turrent....should instead have onboard resupply ....should have faster accel ..needs buff to that and top speed....
3 saga/methana.....these 2 should have an extra skill that increases the res drastically ...like 4% per lvl as well as a skill that enhances the turrents placed on you attack lav...and the back end should handle dmg equally as well as the front unlike all other lavs...the turrenter should have some form of bullet guard on his turrent...

now these are just some of my idea for lavs and balance i will have more input on the tanks side later today me and a few mates are gunna test proto av dmg vs armor and shield tanks both.

Vehicle command maybe skill wise

But for vehicles they should have race specific skills for ther tank so caldari shield and gal armor and they get like 5% to rep rate or something which benefits ther tank

No, the forge gun will out dmg the railgun every time. The forge has higher base damage, damage mods available, and basically the same TtF with the charge time skill and the reload skill.

Ishokune Assault Forge > Particle Canon. All day.

EDIT:

To anyone and everyone who claims vehicles are balanced/op/viable,

please take a look at PC.

How many HAVs do you see? How many Dropships?

Next to none?

Maybe it is because they suck.... hard.

What the hell crutch are you talking about? Have you ever tried tanking? Do you not realize just how effective swarms and AV grenades are (explosives)? They're the most popular AV in the game right now, wanna know why? Because it doesn't require any intelligence to use them, and they're basically fire and forget. They're the stupid man's anti-vehicle weapons. That's the first reason they're so popular. Wanna know the second reason they're so popular? Because the Madrugar gives you the best all-around options for tanking. Know what the Madrugar is? It's an armor tank. We can sacrifice defenses to make a glass cannon fit, or sacrifice offense for more defensive capabilities.

It's only reasonable and logical that ADV and PRO tanks have more HP than STD tanks. After all, that's how dropsuits work, is it not? How would you feel if all CCP did for dropsuits was keep them at basically the same level of health across STD, ADV and PRO levels, and told you that if you want more health, the only way you could get more is by modules?

Damage mods... Yeah...

Forge Gun Skills

Forge Gun Operation: Max 25% reduction to charge time.
Forge Gun Proficiency: Max 15% damage bonus.

Forge Gun Modules

Basic Heavy Damage Modifier: 3% damage bonus. (high slot)
Enhanced Heavy Damage Modifier: 5% damage bonus. (high slot)
Complex Heavy Damage Modifier: 10% damage bonus. (high slot)

Amarr Heavy Dropsuits

Basic
Frame A-1: 1 high, 2 low. 810 base EHP
Frame A/1-Series: 2 high, 2 low. 810 base EHP
Frame ak.0: 2 high, 3 low. 810 base EHP

Sentinel
Sentinel A-1: 1 high, 2 low. 810 base EHP
Sentinel A/1-Series: 1 high, 3 low. 810 base EHP
Sentinel ak.0: 1 high, 4 low. 810 base EHP

Turret Skills

Turret Operation: Max 10% damage bonus.
Large Hybrid Turret Operation: Max 5% damage bonus.

Hybrid Turret Modules

Large Hybrid Modules
High Throughput Field Stabilizer I: 7% damage bonus and 2% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
HT Linear Flux Stabilizer: 8% damage bonus and 3% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
High Throughput Field Stabilizer II: 10% damage bonus and 5% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)

Systemic Hybrid Modules (Affects both small and large hybrid turrets)
Systemic Field Stabilizer I: 3% damage bonus and 2% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
Systemic Vortex Stabilizer: 4% damage bonus and 3% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
Systemic Field Stabilizer II: 6% damage bonus and 5% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)

Fire Control System: 10% reduction to spool up time. (low slot)
Asynchronous Fire Control: 14% reduction to spool up time. (low slot)
Fire Control System II: 19% reduction to spool up time. (low slot)

Conscript Heat Sink: 10% reduction to heat build up. (low slot)
Modified Extruded Heat Sink: 14% reduction to heat build up. (low slot)
Vented Heat Sink: 19% reduction to heat build up. (low slot)

Active Heat Sink I: 20% reduction to heat build up. (high slot)
Azeotripic Coolant Pump: 36% reduction to heat build up. (high slot)
Active Heat Sink II: 52% reduction to heat build up. (high slot)

HAVs

Gunlogi: 5 high, 2 low. 4500 base EHP
Madrugar: 2 high, 5 low. 4750 base EHP
Falchion: 5 high, 2 low. 4432 base EHP
Vayu: 3 high, 5 low. 4672 base EHP

Let's do this as a hypothetical where both players are going for maximum damage output over 4 shots so no reload or overheat and using a two damage mod maximum.

Max skilled Forge Gunner.
Amarr Heavy Frame ak.0: 2 high, 3 low. 810 base EHP
Kaalakiota: 1584.0 (2138.4) damage, 3.5 (2.625) sec charge time.
Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 1663.2 (2245.32) damage, 2.5 (1.875) sec charge time.
Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun: 2773.0 (3743.55) damage, 6 (4.5) second charge (immobilized)
Complex Damage Mod x2: 20% damage bonus. (stacking penalty not included)
Total Bonus:

Kaalakiota: 8553.6 damage, 10.5 seconds. = 814.629 damage per second.
Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 8981.28 damage, 7.5 seconds. = 1197.504 damage per second.
Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun: 14974.2 damage, 18 seconds (immobilized) = 831.9 damage per second.

Max Skilled Tanker.
Vayu: 3 high, 5 low. 4672 base EHP
80GJ Regulated/Particle Cannon: 1438.9 (1942.515), .3 second spool, 1.8 (1.62) second refire.
80GJ Compressed Particle Cannon: 1798.7(2428.245), .3 second spool, 2.2 (1.98) second refire.
High Throughput Field Stabilizer II x2 20% damage bonus, 10% refire rate reduction. (stacking penalty not included)
Total Bonus: 35% damage bonus, 10% refire rate reduction.

80GJ Regulated/Particle Cannon: 7770.06, 5.16 seconds. = 1505.826 damage per second
80GJ Compressed Particle Cannon: 9712.98, 6.24seconds. = 1556.567 damage per second

So, as you can see proven via math, even with the fitting of only two damage mods each, the lowest proto rail turret still out DPSs the most powerful proto FG. If you still want to argue overheat vs reload, we can always drag out the passive and active heat sinks for your tank turrets.

Oh. And you always seem to forget that Rails have double the range of Forges and OHK even the most tanked out heavy.

No shield tank can fit dmg mods, heat sinks, or anything else.

I believe armor tanks can fit an active heat sink? I'm unsure.

A shield tank with your fittings would get one shotted by an AV grenade let alone a forge gun.

My armor tanking days died in Chromosome so I can't say for sure how they would fare.

Fine. Change it to a Falchion. The results would still be the same with two damage mods. Otherwise it looks like you're saying that shield tanks don't have low slots.

You can't use "rock, paper and scissors" in a FPS game .. or a least not in a literal way. You can make weapons more effecting against specific scenarios, but not "exclusive" to that scenarios. Having LAV's that instant kills infantry, its using Rock against Scissors in a "Literal" way... the problem is that LAV's should never be ROCK against infantry..it should be like this:

- Vehicle V's Vehicle

- Infantry V's Infantry

Two different scenarios.

Vehicle V's Infantry, should be "circumstantial " and not "literal".. in other words ;

The mounted gun in a LAV kills Infantry > Anti-vehicle infantry weapons kills LAV.

But not ;

LAV road kills infantry > Infantry kills LAV with grenades.

Nice try with stats

Remember tho every single HAV needs at least 1 PG mod on it

Gunlogis need it or its an extremely weak tank on it, same with madrugars to an extent

All HAV needs a PG mod and if you fit it for damage its a glass tank where as the heavy can be fit for damage and still have a decent tank against infantry where as the HAV has to give up all tank nearly and with the shield tank it cant put on a heat sink unless it loses resistances

The heavy FG doesnt have to give up anything, it can have tank and damage on the same suit, you cannot do that with a HAV we have to give up something to do one or the other, we can do a halfway fit but its neither one or the other and is still weak

How you fit a tank is your choice, just because you don't fit two damage mods, doesn't mean you can't. Besides, the top proto sentinel suits only have one high so their bonuse would be halved still giving the rail tank the DPS advantage.

You obviously don't have experience as a heavy FG wielder in an infantry encounter. The majority of the time, the FG wielder dies in a close encounter with infantry. If I ever get to where I can OHK proto fit rail tank, without having to worry about getting OHKed by said tank, then I'll concede that you have a valid point. Till then, while I'm highly vulnerable to every battlefield threat, and my chosen target takes three or more shots to take down, you've got nothing to stand on.

Heavy FG is easy, either run around in a LAV and hop out at a place where you have a clear LOS and the suprise and then pop back in move again or get up high

OHK a tank is unlickly unless its already too a fair amount of damage since FG/SL can easy do 3k damage and a Proto rail should always OHK infantry the problem is hitting you, as for the proto FG they take 3 shots or less to kill any tank atm

Also as a heavy you have a sidearm slot for a reason to defend yourself, its not hard playing as a heavy just moving around is

Plus as a heavy you can add damage mods and tank, a HAV cannot do that ever due to restrictions and compromises and the whole 'How you fit a tank is your choice, just because you don't fit two damage mods, doesn't mean you can't' is pure BS and just shows you know nothing about vehicles, yes we can fit 2 damage mods on but we have to give up tank/resistances so we are weaker to everything else but a heavy suit doesnt have to do **** because damage mods are mid slots and the tank is low where it doesnt effect anything

So what you're saying is that because a heavy isn't useless against an HAV, where even the basic large rail turret can OHK, it's over powered. I get it. And that you believe that a sidearm is effective defense against all forms of infantry is evident. And forbid that the heavy do something so OP as to utilize intelligent tactics. And the fact that I watch rail tanks effectively snipe infantry from behind their red line all day with high accuracy then read your complaint shows me that you are a poor tanker, poor gunner, or both.

You have given me many smiles and laughs at your apparent belief that the heavy with a FG is a more effective battlefield asset than a well piloted rail tank.

I never said it was OP you idiot but it is clearly not as bad as you are making out

The FG does more base damage than a proto vehicle mounted railgun which has a massive tank looking shape to shoot at while the HAV pilot can only guess at where the little pixelatedAV guy is which needs a direct hit to kill him since splash got nerfed

Sidearm slot ******* use it at least

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA where did i say that the FG is a more effective battlefield weapon than a tank?

I swear you just see what you want and pull handfulls of **** out of your arse and smear it on the screen

How you fit a tank is your choice, just because you don't fit two damage mods, doesn't mean you can't. Besides, the top proto sentinel suits only have one high so their bonuse would be halved still giving the rail tank the DPS advantage.

You obviously don't have experience as a heavy FG wielder in an infantry encounter. The majority of the time, the FG wielder dies in a close encounter with infantry. If I ever get to where I can OHK proto fit rail tank, without having to worry about getting OHKed by said tank, then I'll concede that you have a valid point. Till then, while I'm highly vulnerable to every battlefield threat, and my chosen target takes three or more shots to take down, you've got nothing to stand on.