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EnglishSnake wrote:

The problem is with the idea that we have a driver, main gunner and 2 sub gunners if needed (optional gunners tbh not needed to run the tank in anyway) is that who skills up what?

Does the driver still have to skill up everything? he needs the hull and the mods but frankly he doesnt need the guns so that would mean the gunner needs the turrets but if the driver doesnt have them then how can he put on the gun

Frankly its far too much work to go down this road because of how complicated it would be, the driver still it would seem needs everything just to be able to fit it in the fitting screen because you cannot deploy anything in the field if you have something on it where the pre req have not been met

The only simplistic way of doing this is by seperating the main gun from the driver but still having the driver needing the skills for everything just so he can fit it, so he can deploy it in the field and then whoever jumps into the main gun, problem is johnny randoms jumps in and i cant kick his ass out or lock the vehicle to begin with. Maybe as a secondary measure the guy who will be in controll of the main gun needs to have turret skills also and up to the turret that the driver has so if driver has proto turrets the gunner will need to be skilled into proto turrets.

I would also ask for a buff to the 4man HAV if its going to take more ppl to control it or it could be made a seperate HAV to the ones we have, call it Heavy HAV with improved defences and the pilot can utilise his pilot suit with the vehicle to make it defensively/offensively better


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R F Gyro Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 360	Posted - 2013.06.10 21:58:00 - [1] - Quote Excellent roundup of issues there. Its nice to see someone spending the time to do this properly. Good job. I know you've heard it from me before (several times), but I'll say it again here because I think there's a real chance of someone at CCP reading this thread. Quote: Not to mention the whole argument about teamwork how it only takes 1 HAV driver to annoy a whole team yet the same HAV driver is asking for AV to use teamwork to kill his HAV That is a very, very important point. The balance argument between HAV drivers and infantry will go round and round forever, because the HAV drivers want the balance to be based on ISK and/or SP, whereas the infantry want it to be balanced on number of players. While these are not aligned there can't be balance. I personally believe that HAV/AV can be balanced, and it should be balanced around teams of three on each side, with equal levels of ISK and SP as the baseline. That means making the HAV require a crew of 3 to operate effectively (driver gets front gun, main gunner has a narrow field of view, top gunner becomes commander with a good view). It means HAVs get cheaper and AV gets more expensive, so that at each level (basic, advanced, proto) one loaded HAV costs about the same as 3 loaded AV suits, in both ISK and SP. Once this is done, all your other points become much easier to work with in terms of fine tuning the balance. Without this, I suspect you'll be simply rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
R F Gyro Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 360	Posted - 2013.06.11 19:37:00 - [2] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: The problem is with the idea that we have a driver, main gunner and 2 sub gunners if needed (optional gunners tbh not needed to run the tank in anyway) is that who skills up what? Does the driver still have to skill up everything? he needs the hull and the mods but frankly he doesnt need the guns so that would mean the gunner needs the turrets but if the driver doesnt have them then how can he put on the gun Frankly its far too much work to go down this road because of how complicated it would be, the driver still it would seem needs everything just to be able to fit it in the fitting screen because you cannot deploy anything in the field if you have something on it where the pre req have not been met The only simplistic way of doing this is by seperating the main gun from the driver but still having the driver needing the skills for everything just so he can fit it, so he can deploy it in the field and then whoever jumps into the main gun, problem is johnny randoms jumps in and i cant kick his ass out or lock the vehicle to begin with. Maybe as a secondary measure the guy who will be in controll of the main gun needs to have turret skills also and up to the turret that the driver has so if driver has proto turrets the gunner will need to be skilled into proto turrets. I would also ask for a buff to the 4man HAV if its going to take more ppl to control it or it could be made a seperate HAV to the ones we have, call it Heavy HAV with improved defences and the pilot can utilise his pilot suit with the vehicle to make it defensively/offensively better Yep, there aren't any easy solutions, but I still firmly believe that you need to balance around number of players first, and then ISK/SP second. The critical hard limit in Dust battles is number of players. If you allow one player in a HAV to be significantly more effective than one player in any other role then there is only one place things can end up: 16 HAVs per side (has anyone ever brought 16 HAVs to a fight before, btw?) Teams A and B are fighting, with 16 players each. Team A pulls out a HAV. To maintain parity, team B can switch one guy to a HAV, or switch three guys to AV. I don't think any of the "tank crew" objections you raise are blockers, by the way, and I'm happy to go into detail if asked.
R F Gyro Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 362	Posted - 2013.06.12 16:43:00 - [3] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Your comparing a 3man HAV to a 3man AV team Problem here is that 3man HAV team is generally short range except the driver if hes got a railgun on the HAV, the 2 small turrets are effectively useless and unless they have sniper rifles they cant do long range, on the other hand the 3 AV guys can be all FG or SL and hit from distance where only the driver can shoot back, if the turret is blaster its just better to run away but even then aslong as they have a line of sight you will still get hit In PC battles right now no one runs in the HAV with the driver, when AV hits it from long range and is only short range if you get in the thick of it like inside a compound, FG/SL are used in places that the HAV wont be able to hit Its mostly why HAV drivers tend to argue about ISK and SP, because a 3 man HAV crew cannot hit the AV guys when they are generally out of reach Now if we could have small turrets which could hit long range then maybe we would fill our small turrets up a bit more because we as drivers wouldnt have to feel that we need to run railgun all the time incase long range AV comes into play, we could switch up our tactics a little bit I'm not saying a 3 man HAV crew is balanced with a 3 man AV team right now. I'm saying that a 3 man HAV crew should be balanced with a 3 man AV team. I'll support any initiative that achieves that. Once operating a tank requires 3 players I'm all in favour of buffing them, or nerfing AV, or whatever combination makes sense.
R F Gyro Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 362	Posted - 2013.06.12 16:48:00 - [4] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: One proto assault scrub should not be able to solo a tank, Why not? Why should one player with one set of kit not be able to solo one player with a different set of kit? Don't come back with "its a tank" because that isn't a valid game-play argument. Also, don't say "because of ISK or SP", because I don't believe those are significant limiting factors for a large portion of the player base any more. Is there a valid argument gameplay argument for "if I spec into this I will be significantly better than if I spec into anything else"? Also, remember I'm not saying one infantry player should be able to solo a HAV whenever they want. I'm saying a 3 man AV team should be able to kill a 3 man tank crew 50% of the time.
R F Gyro Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 363	Posted - 2013.06.13 10:46:00 - [5] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: You're a ****. Please, go back to Call of Duty. You don't understand the dynamics a tank brings to the field. [quote=R F Gyro]Also, remember I'm not saying one infantry player should be able to solo a HAV whenever they want.[/quote\] THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY!!!!!** How the hell could you not see that? It's basically the same argument as 3 in a tank vs 3 with AV. Why should one guy with AV grenades be able to solo a tank? Can you answer that with any intelligence at all? Calm down or I won't answer you at all. I very deliberately did not say one infantry player should be able to solo a HAV. You won't be able to provide any quotes to show otherwise. 1v1 is absolutely not the same as 3v3. The ratio is the same, but that is all. I firmly believe that one guy with AV nades should get pummelled every time by a HAV with a crew of 3. There is no way he should be able to solo it. HAVs should be buffed, or AV nerfed, so that this is the case. Two guys should not be able to reliably kill a HAV either, again assuming the HAV requires a crew of 3 to operate. It should take a coordinated team of 3 infantry to kill a HAV, but it should take a crew of 3 to operate one as well; that is balanced. Please read what I've been posting again, spend just a little bit of time trying to understand what I am saying, and then respond. Misrepresenting my argument and then attacking your misrepresentation instead isn't the right way to approach this.
R F Gyro Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 363	Posted - 2013.06.13 10:54:00 - [6] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: R F Gyro wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: One proto assault scrub should not be able to solo a tank, Why not? Why should one player with one set of kit not be able to solo one player with a different set of kit? Don't come back with "its a tank" because that isn't a valid game-play argument. Also, don't say "because of ISK or SP", because I don't believe those are significant limiting factors for a large portion of the player base any more. Is there a valid argument gameplay argument for "if I spec into this I will be significantly better than if I spec into anything else"? Also, remember I'm not saying one infantry player should be able to solo a HAV whenever they want. I'm saying a 3 man AV team should be able to kill a 3 man tank crew 50% of the time. NO! A 3 man team of std forges should be able to kill a gunlogi 85% of the time. However, when you scale that up one level, it only takes one adv, or pro forge to solo a gunlogi, let alone officer forges. Vehicle balance is there, but we don't have the other side of the scale (ADV and PRO) tanks. I'm not quite sure how to read your post; could you clarify which of the following you intended? a) With the current game mechanics, if 3 players with standard forges attack a gunlogi, they will kill it 85% of the time b) The game should be changed so that if 3 players with standard forges attack a gunlogi, they will kill it 85% of the time I think you mean (a), and assuming that is the case... I believe HAVs should be buffed, or AV nerfed, so that it would take 3 proto AV players to have a 50% chance of winning a fight with a top end HAV. Three basic AV players should have a 50% chance of killing a low end HAV. While implementing these AV nerfs / HAV buffs, the HAV should be made to require a crew of 3 to operate effectively. Part of buffing HAVs might be to introduce better HAVs (proto equiv) if they are absent, to counter proto AV gear.
R F Gyro Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 369	Posted - 2013.06.16 18:45:00 - [7] - Quote Eurydice Itzhak wrote: People shouldn't be SOLOing tanks. People keep saying this, without any justification. While a tank can be operated solo, I see no valid game balance reason why infantry shouldn't be able to kill them solo. As I see it, you have three options here:- Provide a game balance justification for your statement that people should not be soloing tanks Accept that game balance requires 1 player in a tank to be about equal to 1 player not in a tank, and soloing is OK Require multiple people to operate a tank, and the same number of people to counter it Option 3 means infantry can't solo a tank (which is what you want) but we still have a balanced game. It is clearly the best option as far as I'm concerned.
R F Gyro Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 369	Posted - 2013.06.16 22:30:00 - [8] - Quote Eurydice Itzhak wrote: You're the reason this is AR 514. Go home. You people think that tanks should be taken solo with ease. This is why tanks suck in PC. This is why everything but ARs suck in PC. "Go home". That's a convincing argument, well done. You must be very proud of yourself. If you take the time to read my post (the one you are responding to) you will discover that of the three options I listed, I stated a preference for one (option 3) in which I very explicitly state "infantry can't solo a tank".
R F Gyro Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 369	Posted - 2013.06.18 18:40:00 - [9] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Mortedeamor wrote: actually it makes perfect sense that a master av can solo any tank atm...think about it....if you run into a sntd suit in dust..your ina proto suit..they're gun game may even be a bit better...but its just more likely your gunna scrub em up....its called proto stomping beating the crap out of people with lesser gear. tanks have no gear above stnd...ive seen the so called adv havs..and me asa proto av ive quesynced witha friend and hit a adv hav with adv av.....the need a slight buff... once tankers are given they're proto's it will most likely take a combo of heavy av and light av to control the field....caldari proto hav would not be soloable by 1 proto swarm..2-3 man av teams....balance This^ It's hard to say tanks are UP when we're missing more than half of them. But when we get proto tanks this whole debate will just spring up again. How is it balanced when it takes 3 players (with AV) to kill one player (in a HAV)? How does this not lead to everyone rolling around in tanks?
R F Gyro Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 369	Posted - 2013.06.19 19:06:00 - [10] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: My basic fit with a proto turret is 1.7mil If i used an enforcer its 2.9mil maybe 3mil due to extra slot Advanced i can see will push it to 5mil probs and proto getting close to 10mil ISK fully fitted while that proto AV fit is 500k Not too mention that will be millions of SP needed to use proto vehicles I will look forward to the day when dumb ass randoms cant dent it with milita AV and it takes at least a couple of proto guys to hurt it Don't balance on ISK alone. That approach breaks badly once everyone gets rich. You are still one guy in your tank. Requiring two guys to take you out is not balanced. Make a tank require 3 players to operate it; make it require 3 players to kill it. Make tanks cheaper and AV gear more expensive: 1.5m for a top-end fitted HAV, and 500K for a top-end fitted AV suit. Now it requires 3 players in proto AV gear to have a reasonable chance of killing your proto tank, but no-one QQs because it is balanced.

R F Gyro Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 369	Posted - 2013.06.20 10:07:00 - [11] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Look above You do not see packs of tanks roaming about, you see packs of AV runing around because it easy Vehicle are a massive ISK and SP sink, if im not in a vehicle im generally a walking meatbag in which a gust of wind kills me Having 3 ppl in a HAV means ** all because generally the 2 turrets are useless, the 3man AV group is still fighting the 1 person in that HAV because the 2 small turrets are useless even if they even sat in the damn thing, the HAV doesnt get stronger because its full up so 3v3 is really 3vs 1 anyways so it doesnt fly Its all down to the driver, the driver has to put everything into a vehicle to make it good, he gives up everything and cannot be on foot without getting wasted, without the driver the HAV is nothing, its easier to go ground pounding and skill up AV as a side hobby Compare that to an AV guy who can skill up and AV weapon along next to his main weapon while sticking to one suit You say 3v1 isnt fair, im in a damn tank while they are walking meatbags when compared to it with weapons that are already stronger than my turret and can lock on fire and forget go around corners and pull 270s If you want 3v3 then i want pilot suits to be worn by all my gunners and have mods which increases the tank/resistances/damage but until then its 3v1 all the way because the gunners do next to anyways I'm not talking about packs of tanks. I'm talking about one tank with 3 people in it. I understand that HAVs cost of lot of ISK and SP. I'd like to balance that more, so HAVs cost less, and AV costs more. I understand that - right now - 2 of the players in a HAV are almost useless. I'd like to change that. I'd like small turrets on a HAV to be more effective. I want to separate the driver & main gun. I want the HAV to get significant defensive bonuses if the top turret is occupied. I understand that it is all down to the driver at the moment. I'd like to change that, so the driver is just one part of a team that is operating the HAV. I understand that one guy can be effective in AV at the moment. I'd like to change that so that it takes 3 people working together to take down a tank. "I'm a tank" is not a valid game balance argument in my view. I'm very happy with the idea of specialist suits for vehicle crew. My core argument is very, very simple: if you ignore number of players when trying to balance HAVs vs AV, you will fail.**
R F Gyro Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 376	Posted - 2013.06.21 17:04:00 - [12] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: With your own words How is it balanced when it takes 3 players (with AV) to kill one player (in a HAV)? How does this not lead to everyone rolling around in tanks? You assume that everyone would run to tanks if it takes 3 ppl to take it down, considering it takes millions of SP to get a fully fitted HAV you can skill up AV in half the time instead and kill them If you make a 4man HAV then should it take 4 AV to take it down? maybe even more AV because it gets defensive bonuses You cant balance it with players when a 3man HAV is the same when its just the driver The balance is currently 2-3 std to take down a std tank and it will continue to be this way until we get adv/proto vehicles and also some basic changes done We need everything in before we can change what we have I don't think you've been reading my posts properly. My answer/response to all of that is already in this thread. Anyway, good luck with this initiative. I really do think it is a good attempt to help CCP bring more balance to the game. My hope is that someone there is monitoring this thread and is able to see all the good ideas.