Likes and bump for summing up for the most part what is wrong with vehicle / av balance in uprising.

One thing that I'd like to see that would probably be the best equalizer for death taxis is that the amount of armor that a merc has left is transferred as incoming damage to the lav.

I think the FG has better damage than the rail turret for the simple reason that the FG is carried by a merc that will be OHK by any rail turret, while the tank/installation, will take, on the average, 3 hits to kill. Breach FG, with the longest charge time, also renders the wielder immobile while it's charging/charged making them an easy target.

Reducing the FG damage by 50% will result in the FG getting few to no kills as by the time the FG wielder fires 4 shots and reloads, the tank is usually out of range for the 5th shot. BTW... FG range is 300.

Disregarding militia vehicles, there is no AV weapon that can OHK a HAV except, maybe, an officer breach if there is one. However, a direct hit by a rail turret always results in a OHK against any infantry, even heavies.

Base charge times for forge guns, between each shot, are...

Assault: 2.5sec
Standard: 3.5sec
Breach: 6sec

Large rail turret base times are...

Regulated/Standard: .3sec charge with a 1sec fire interval. Regulated has better tracking.
Compressed: .3sec charge with a 2.2sec fire interval.

So let's compare how many shots the large rail turret fires based on optimal base charge and fire of one shot from a FG if the two pulled the trigger at the same time.

Regulated/Standard Rail vs Assault FG: 3 shots.
Regulated/Standard Rail vs Standard FG: 4 shots.
Compressed Rail vs Breach FG: 3 shots.

The dynamic changes a bit if you go with the average of 3 forge shots to kill an HAV. I'll try to take into account managing heat on the rail turret.

Regulated/Standard Rail vs Assault FG: 6 shots.
Regulated/Standard Rail vs Standard FG: 8 shots.
Compressed Rail vs Breach FG: 8 shots.

So, when it comes to damage output over time, large rail tanks are way above FG not to mention that large rail turrets have twice the range of a FG.

Well I did have to use the data available to me which would be the specs from the in game info screens themselves. Those show a .3 second charge to the first shot that the rail turret fires with a 1 second refire rate. That's base. Still, changing the refire to 1.8, the rail turret still out damages a comparable forge gun when you put it down to damage over time. And I remind you that a rail turret is more accurate than a FG and will OHK any infantry, including a heavy. I do know that the LG rail turret works the same as the rail installations and they do fire their first shot at the end of the initial charge cycle, the second shot is fired at the end of the refire timer.

Am fine with pilots wanting to use cpu/pgrid for more ehp if they can fit the mods, not fine at all buffing ehp arbitrally. HAV is, lets face it, a crutch after all no point in throwing random boosts on them.

Damage mods... Yeah...

Forge Gun Skills

Forge Gun Operation: Max 25% reduction to charge time.
Forge Gun Proficiency: Max 15% damage bonus.

Forge Gun Modules

Basic Heavy Damage Modifier: 3% damage bonus. (high slot)
Enhanced Heavy Damage Modifier: 5% damage bonus. (high slot)
Complex Heavy Damage Modifier: 10% damage bonus. (high slot)

Amarr Heavy Dropsuits

Basic
Frame A-1: 1 high, 2 low. 810 base EHP
Frame A/1-Series: 2 high, 2 low. 810 base EHP
Frame ak.0: 2 high, 3 low. 810 base EHP

Sentinel
Sentinel A-1: 1 high, 2 low. 810 base EHP
Sentinel A/1-Series: 1 high, 3 low. 810 base EHP
Sentinel ak.0: 1 high, 4 low. 810 base EHP

Turret Skills

Turret Operation: Max 10% damage bonus.
Large Hybrid Turret Operation: Max 5% damage bonus.

Hybrid Turret Modules

Large Hybrid Modules
High Throughput Field Stabilizer I: 7% damage bonus and 2% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
HT Linear Flux Stabilizer: 8% damage bonus and 3% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
High Throughput Field Stabilizer II: 10% damage bonus and 5% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)

Systemic Hybrid Modules (Affects both small and large hybrid turrets)
Systemic Field Stabilizer I: 3% damage bonus and 2% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
Systemic Vortex Stabilizer: 4% damage bonus and 3% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
Systemic Field Stabilizer II: 6% damage bonus and 5% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)

Fire Control System: 10% reduction to spool up time. (low slot)
Asynchronous Fire Control: 14% reduction to spool up time. (low slot)
Fire Control System II: 19% reduction to spool up time. (low slot)

Conscript Heat Sink: 10% reduction to heat build up. (low slot)
Modified Extruded Heat Sink: 14% reduction to heat build up. (low slot)
Vented Heat Sink: 19% reduction to heat build up. (low slot)

Active Heat Sink I: 20% reduction to heat build up. (high slot)
Azeotripic Coolant Pump: 36% reduction to heat build up. (high slot)
Active Heat Sink II: 52% reduction to heat build up. (high slot)

HAVs

Gunlogi: 5 high, 2 low. 4500 base EHP
Madrugar: 2 high, 5 low. 4750 base EHP
Falchion: 5 high, 2 low. 4432 base EHP
Vayu: 3 high, 5 low. 4672 base EHP

Let's do this as a hypothetical where both players are going for maximum damage output over 4 shots so no reload or overheat and using a two damage mod maximum.

Max skilled Forge Gunner.
Amarr Heavy Frame ak.0: 2 high, 3 low. 810 base EHP
Kaalakiota: 1584.0 (2138.4) damage, 3.5 (2.625) sec charge time.
Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 1663.2 (2245.32) damage, 2.5 (1.875) sec charge time.
Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun: 2773.0 (3743.55) damage, 6 (4.5) second charge (immobilized)
Complex Damage Mod x2: 20% damage bonus. (stacking penalty not included)
Total Bonus:

Kaalakiota: 8553.6 damage, 10.5 seconds. = 814.629 damage per second.
Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 8981.28 damage, 7.5 seconds. = 1197.504 damage per second.
Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun: 14974.2 damage, 18 seconds (immobilized) = 831.9 damage per second.

Max Skilled Tanker.
Vayu: 3 high, 5 low. 4672 base EHP
80GJ Regulated/Particle Cannon: 1438.9 (1942.515), .3 second spool, 1.8 (1.62) second refire.
80GJ Compressed Particle Cannon: 1798.7(2428.245), .3 second spool, 2.2 (1.98) second refire.
High Throughput Field Stabilizer II x2 20% damage bonus, 10% refire rate reduction. (stacking penalty not included)
Total Bonus: 35% damage bonus, 10% refire rate reduction.

80GJ Regulated/Particle Cannon: 7770.06, 5.16 seconds. = 1505.826 damage per second
80GJ Compressed Particle Cannon: 9712.98, 6.24seconds. = 1556.567 damage per second

So, as you can see proven via math, even with the fitting of only two damage mods each, the lowest proto rail turret still out DPSs the most powerful proto FG. If you still want to argue overheat vs reload, we can always drag out the passive and active heat sinks for your tank turrets.

Oh. And you always seem to forget that Rails have double the range of Forges and OHK even the most tanked out heavy.

Damage mods... Yeah...

Forge Gun Skills

Forge Gun Operation: Max 25% reduction to charge time.
Forge Gun Proficiency: Max 15% damage bonus.

Forge Gun Modules

Basic Heavy Damage Modifier: 3% damage bonus. (high slot)
Enhanced Heavy Damage Modifier: 5% damage bonus. (high slot)
Complex Heavy Damage Modifier: 10% damage bonus. (high slot)

Amarr Heavy Dropsuits

Basic
Frame A-1: 1 high, 2 low. 810 base EHP
Frame A/1-Series: 2 high, 2 low. 810 base EHP
Frame ak.0: 2 high, 3 low. 810 base EHP

Sentinel
Sentinel A-1: 1 high, 2 low. 810 base EHP
Sentinel A/1-Series: 1 high, 3 low. 810 base EHP
Sentinel ak.0: 1 high, 4 low. 810 base EHP

Turret Skills

Turret Operation: Max 10% damage bonus.
Large Hybrid Turret Operation: Max 5% damage bonus.

Hybrid Turret Modules

Large Hybrid Modules
High Throughput Field Stabilizer I: 7% damage bonus and 2% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
HT Linear Flux Stabilizer: 8% damage bonus and 3% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
High Throughput Field Stabilizer II: 10% damage bonus and 5% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)

Systemic Hybrid Modules (Affects both small and large hybrid turrets)
Systemic Field Stabilizer I: 3% damage bonus and 2% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
Systemic Vortex Stabilizer: 4% damage bonus and 3% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)
Systemic Field Stabilizer II: 6% damage bonus and 5% increase to rate of fire. (low slot)

Fire Control System: 10% reduction to spool up time. (low slot)
Asynchronous Fire Control: 14% reduction to spool up time. (low slot)
Fire Control System II: 19% reduction to spool up time. (low slot)

Conscript Heat Sink: 10% reduction to heat build up. (low slot)
Modified Extruded Heat Sink: 14% reduction to heat build up. (low slot)
Vented Heat Sink: 19% reduction to heat build up. (low slot)

Active Heat Sink I: 20% reduction to heat build up. (high slot)
Azeotripic Coolant Pump: 36% reduction to heat build up. (high slot)
Active Heat Sink II: 52% reduction to heat build up. (high slot)

HAVs

Gunlogi: 5 high, 2 low. 4500 base EHP
Madrugar: 2 high, 5 low. 4750 base EHP
Falchion: 5 high, 2 low. 4432 base EHP
Vayu: 3 high, 5 low. 4672 base EHP

Let's do this as a hypothetical where both players are going for maximum damage output over 4 shots so no reload or overheat and using a two damage mod maximum.

Max skilled Forge Gunner.
Amarr Heavy Frame ak.0: 2 high, 3 low. 810 base EHP
Kaalakiota: 1584.0 (2138.4) damage, 3.5 (2.625) sec charge time.
Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 1663.2 (2245.32) damage, 2.5 (1.875) sec charge time.
Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun: 2773.0 (3743.55) damage, 6 (4.5) second charge (immobilized)
Complex Damage Mod x2: 20% damage bonus. (stacking penalty not included)
Total Bonus:

Kaalakiota: 8553.6 damage, 10.5 seconds. = 814.629 damage per second.
Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 8981.28 damage, 7.5 seconds. = 1197.504 damage per second.
Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun: 14974.2 damage, 18 seconds (immobilized) = 831.9 damage per second.

Max Skilled Tanker.
Vayu: 3 high, 5 low. 4672 base EHP
80GJ Regulated/Particle Cannon: 1438.9 (1942.515), .3 second spool, 1.8 (1.62) second refire.
80GJ Compressed Particle Cannon: 1798.7(2428.245), .3 second spool, 2.2 (1.98) second refire.
High Throughput Field Stabilizer II x2 20% damage bonus, 10% refire rate reduction. (stacking penalty not included)
Total Bonus: 35% damage bonus, 10% refire rate reduction.

80GJ Regulated/Particle Cannon: 7770.06, 5.16 seconds. = 1505.826 damage per second
80GJ Compressed Particle Cannon: 9712.98, 6.24seconds. = 1556.567 damage per second

So, as you can see proven via math, even with the fitting of only two damage mods each, the lowest proto rail turret still out DPSs the most powerful proto FG. If you still want to argue overheat vs reload, we can always drag out the passive and active heat sinks for your tank turrets.

Oh. And you always seem to forget that Rails have double the range of Forges and OHK even the most tanked out heavy.

So what you're saying is that because a heavy isn't useless against an HAV, where even the basic large rail turret can OHK, it's over powered. I get it. And that you believe that a sidearm is effective defense against all forms of infantry is evident. And forbid that the heavy do something so OP as to utilize intelligent tactics. And the fact that I watch rail tanks effectively snipe infantry from behind their red line all day with high accuracy then read your complaint shows me that you are a poor tanker, poor gunner, or both.

You have given me many smiles and laughs at your apparent belief that the heavy with a FG is a more effective battlefield asset than a well piloted rail tank.

How you fit a tank is your choice, just because you don't fit two damage mods, doesn't mean you can't. Besides, the top proto sentinel suits only have one high so their bonuse would be halved still giving the rail tank the DPS advantage.

You obviously don't have experience as a heavy FG wielder in an infantry encounter. The majority of the time, the FG wielder dies in a close encounter with infantry. If I ever get to where I can OHK proto fit rail tank, without having to worry about getting OHKed by said tank, then I'll concede that you have a valid point. Till then, while I'm highly vulnerable to every battlefield threat, and my chosen target takes three or more shots to take down, you've got nothing to stand on.

Gibberish

The discussion was apparently based on the false assumption that a forge gun out damages a large rail turret, not the tactics and fittings of the mercs using them. On a per shot basis, you're right. But on a damage output over time, you're completely wrong.

People keep saying this, without any justification.

While a tank can be operated solo, I see no valid game balance reason why infantry shouldn't be able to kill them solo.

As I see it, you have three options here:-

1. Provide a game balance justification for your statement that people should not be soloing tanks
2. Accept that game balance requires 1 player in a tank to be about equal to 1 player not in a tank, and soloing is OK
3. Require multiple people to operate a tank, and the same number of people to counter it

Option 3 means infantry can't solo a tank (which is what you want) but we still have a balanced game. It is clearly the best option as far as I'm concerned.

The breach variants are the only Forges capable of getting near, and breaking, 3k. On top of that, the breach variants have the longest charge times and completely immobilize the wielder. If you're dieing to a solo breach then the wielder got into a good position and caught you by surprise. As for my "flawed" argument, I compared on max skills and available mods for both, not what has been accepted as the "Must be fitted this way" ideology. It's not my problem if you can't accept the results of a balanced comparison. And you apparently still feel that a rail tank with twice the range, more mobility (don't confuse it with agility), Higher accuracy, and able to OHK anyone in their sights makes it underpowered.

Am I missing something here? The only times I see an av nade take out a tank is on the milltia variants. If your multimillion dollar tanks are getting destroyed by av nades, your doing it wrong. Also lol at av nades being an "exploit".

Yes, yes. I know. The fearsome bunny hopping breach forge. Seriously, you need to stop making me laugh so hard. It's hard to type at times.

A heavy in an LAV I've seen. I do it to get from place to place because I can't run like a scout. At least I don't play murder taxi.

Shell drop is a constant. I see tankers landing shells on people all the time. Same with travel time. Forge does have scatter to their shots. I've experienced it. Times when the HAV, LAV, even an installation is filling a significant portion of my aim box and still, the shot goes high and to the side or hits the ground between the target and myself.

If you had a turret equivalent to the forge, you'd QQ about the way it shakes while it's charging/charged, then you'd QQ about it not being very accurate when you try to shoot infantry. You might also QQ about the time between shots and the max effective range of 300 meters.

What this finally comes down to is that neither one of us will change our minds so this conversation, that you've been treating like a personal affront to your ego, is at a stalemate.

You obviously don't have experience as a heavy FG wielder in an infantry encounter. The majority of the time, the FG wielder dies in a close encounter with infantry. If I ever get to where I can OHK proto fit rail tank, without having to worry about getting OHKed by said tank, then I'll concede that you have a valid point. Till then, while I'm highly vulnerable to every battlefield threat, and my chosen target takes three or more shots to take down, you've got nothing to stand on.

Your immaturity and inability to understand your own implications only moves me to more fervent laughter. The fact that you can't comprehend a statistical comparison shows that you have difficulty with comprehension. Either that or you're in the same genetic pool as the "chosen" people with the fallacious belief that science is false, and everything was created six thousand years ago, even though they have mountains of evidence to the contrary put before them.

The discussion was apparently based on the false assumption that a forge gun out damages a large rail turret, not the tactics and fittings of the mercs using them. On a per shot basis, you're right. But on a damage output over time, you're completely wrong.

So you're implying that there's some fitting nutzi standing over every tanker's shoulder every time they go to fitting to make sure it's fit just so with no variation allowed. Or do you mean to imply that the tanks come pre-fit and no alterations are allowed? It looked to me that it was always the tankers choice how to fit their tanks good or bad.

, Higher accuracy, and able to OHK anyone in their sights makes it underpowered.

So you want it to be Tank 514? I haven't seen any suggestions for an alternate balance, only calls for changes to make all AV useless.

AV grenade spam is deadly to pretty much any vehicle that gets within throw range. Especially if the tossers are near a supply depot or nano hives. This is one of the times when I do agree that this type of AV is too effective.

May be more difficult, but still OHK. I've lost many suits to rail tankers in a fire fight. Damage over time is a calculation based on statistical data of the equipment in question, not one's personal ability to hit the target.

As for my use of grammar, I am actually educated. If you don't like my utilization of the English vocabulary, that's not my problem.

Lastly, I never called him stupid. I simply stated that he seemed to have an issue with comprehension, or just a stubborn refusal, of basic statistical facts.

Forge guns don't have lock on. That's SWARMS and AV grenades. I pop bad tankers regularly and sometimes I get a good tanker that makes a tactical mistake or just get's caught flat footed. But most of the time, good tankers manage to escape by leaving my field of fire or running for the red line denying them an area until I get run off by snipers, infantry support, or a rail gunner that can actually aim.

Then I notify the squad I'm in that I need support and snipers get hunted, infantry gets countered, and our own tanker, or other AV adds additional support. It's called playing tactically.

So perhaps I'm not doing so bad considering the only weapon skills I have actually put SP into is Forge and SMG.

I don't think CCP will ever give us prototype tanks. Since at most it will give us an low slot on shield tanks or an extra high slot on armor tanks and an increase in powergrid CPU armor and shields.

What we need are better modules. The modules are what makes the tank . You can put a madrugar on the field with no modules and die in moments.Put a soma on the field with modules and you can easily out live the madrugar

right now modules stop at level 3

.25 for an active hardener imagine if it was .35 or even .40 instead of 414 every second for 15 second what if it was 522 or even near 600

You want 9 slot proto hulls? How about 5 slot proto hulls? If PG/CPU gets fixed, a 9 slot proto hull tank, I'm pretty sure, would be nearly, if not completely, immune to infantry based AV.

I stand corrected.

However, while I agree HAVs should be useful, and they are, and I agree that they need a PG/CPU fix, I think HAVs should have to balance between tank and gank. To be able to fit the best of both would probably make them too strong and subject to nerf hammering.

I wish I had 8 slots. LOL

Yeah because you know my SMG is just so terrifyingly effective for close encounters right? It's not like I can use my SMG and FG akimbo.

I only agree with you as far as AV Grenades, well maybe proximity mines too, but I have no experience using them. But SWARMS should make a HAV jock cautious, and the Forge should make a HAV jock sweat.

Tank and gank? You're obviously talking about assault suits.

I'm not disagreeing that HAV jocks should get advanced and proto vehicles. I just don't think it should make dedicated infantry based AV useless VS the HAV which is what Heavy/Forge is for at the moment. I don't use SWARMS. I personally don't like them. I prefer the challenge of aiming my shots. Besides, SWARMS are much more effective on assault drop suits than on heavies.